Gus Van Sant | Club Random with Bill Maher

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(upbeat music) The contestants, the people up for the award. Nominies, you mean nominees. We're not content as God's for Christ's sake. (upbeat music) Great pleasure to meet you, sir. How are you? Good. You're comfortable? Yes. Very. Are you comfortable doing conversations? This is not an interview because I never prepare anything. Oh good, right. It's just what I know about you, which is I'm a big admire of your movies. Oh, thanks a lot. And so the latest one liked it a lot. Dead man's wire. Are you excited about the upcoming Oscar season? And what's happening today? What? Today is the first day that it plays in a theater. Oh really? It plays in two theaters. One is in LA, one in New York. I think to qualify for at least Oscars. And then it goes streaming? No, it's not a streaming project at all. It's a completely independent. That's rare these days. I don't know if you saw the end credits. There was a 100 producers. It's kind of a crowdfunding. A hundred producers. Yeah. Come on. Because I think each one put in like $100,000 added up to it. Oh, I see the money. 10 million dollars. Yeah, the money. It was all about the money. I mean, every director of a certain age that I talk to in recent years, you know, some very big names like you. And it's always about getting the money. Yes. I mean, maybe it doesn't. I mean, this is such a low budget that there were a lot of things that weren't like, you know, if you're-- if it's a $100 million project, you know, there's a lot of things that are about the money. But this was so low budget that there were a lot of things that weren't so much at these days. What's your budget these days? ours was $10 million, $10.8 million. So you know how much Cleopatra cost? My million. I'm just $1 million. And they were? And that was a big deal. Well, it was 1962. So, come on. But still-- Tell us around, that was around. It is pretty funny that they went batch it about that number. Yeah. You know what a ticket for my fair lady cost on Broadway? It's the best ticket in the house. In 1956, the year I was born. No. $6. Wow. Those are the days. Well, but a car was like $1,500. And that's the interesting thing. Somebody put out a great article recently pointing out that the poverty level, you know, what we call the, you know, below the poverty level is a certain thing where you would qualify for government funding, you know, food stamps and stuff. It's based on something like from the '50s, where you have--it's like a third of your money goes to food, back then it did. But now, not nearly a third of people's money goes to food, food is cheap. But housing, college, medical, child care, all that shit, you know, was way cheap or didn't even exist. Yeah. My child care, yeah, we had child care, it was called my mother. Same with us. Yeah. My family. I mean, you're from the-- Mike Mayborn in the '50s, right? I grew up on the East Coast. I grew up-- my family was from Kentucky. The first six years were in Colorado, Denver, Colorado. Well. A suburb. What was that like back then? It was very suburban, like the new houses were, you know, a whole section of the city. It was kind of a western city. I mean, Denver is--I always found it fascinating. It's not a whole state, it's a-- they call it purple state, because, you know, it's sort of like, it's got like fucking hippies, you know, it felt like it was a big bull. The Cassidy came from Denver. Neal Cassidy? Mm-hmm. One of the beats. Yeah. Sure, I remember. With Ginsburg, right? Well, he was from-- In downtown Denver. In downtown Denver? Yeah. That was from Massachusetts. But they were all in the same covenant together. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, they met at Columbia. Yeah. In New York. And Neal was just driving through, you know, this, like-- and Alan was, like, this guy is amazing and interesting. Yeah, I feel like your early movies that you made you famous, the drugstore, cowboy, and private Idaho, that sort of that milieu, it seems like you were very inspired by that when you were a kid. Yeah, I was. Was it early? Yeah. Let's see. That four years were different. It's a little-- that's just a little before I was, like, when you were a young teenager, like, that was a thing you would, as a smart 13-year-old, that's something you would be interested in, whereas, in that era, I was just in the baseball cards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And didn't really-- 1968. I'm 12. That's, like, a really-- the first year I was, like, I sort of became aware of the world outside of me, I was suddenly into music. Yeah. That's a big difference. It is. It's from baseball to music. So it's four years, basically. So I was 16 and 68. Yeah. Very different. Yeah. And if you're 16 and 68, the number one where you have-- Was the draft. --is the draft. Yeah. Which came up at my number, but then they had a lottery. My number was four, but I had a student deferment. So I was a student. You and your fucking white privilege. How dare you? Exactly. Even sit here and drink with me. You fascist. White privilege. Well, it actually was. I mean, you know, I mean, they overused that phrase. But back in that day, it kind of was, like, you could-- and not just that day, George Bush famously-- the first, you know, in the second George Bush-- famously was in the National Guard when he could have gone to Vietnam. And when he ran against John Kerry, he was always like, stop denigrating the Guard. And we're not denigrating the Guard. We're denigrating you for having your Congressman father pull strings and let you in the Guard. Yes. The Guard was-- you know, when he was prosecuting the war in Iraq, he sent a lot of National Guard. But when he was in the National Guard, they didn't go to Vietnam. No. Because we had a draft. Yeah. Your background there, like, in a place that was this sort of cross-currents, I feel like you get-- I mean, Denver, Colorado can be a red now. Next place. Yeah. Well, we left-- when I was six, and we traveled around, it's like Chicago for two years, San Francisco area for one year, and then Connecticut. So I was 10 when I got to Connecticut. So a lot of-- I pretty much grew up in what you were saying, Connecticut. Can you-- Daryen. Oh, I know the area well. You do? Well, I was a pot dealer in college. I went from never smoking to dealing it in six months. because it's certainly the best way to afford it. And my pot dealer, when I got out of college, I kept the, I started in college, but I kept the job because I had to, I was a comedian, am I gonna make a living, you know? Like you have to, the comedians are really graded, like just figuring out ways to not work in the day and somehow survive. And that was my scam. Not a scam, I was an honest drug pot dealer. And I went to Westport, Connecticut. - Oh, well, to sell. - To buy. - To buy. - To buy. - To sell. - There seemed to be like a lot of pot in my area. - It was just lucky that there was this guy who I, it was introduced through a friend and I think this guy's brother was in the mob. And he just got like tons of pot. And so the prices were great. He was just a sweet guy. I think he wanted people to come over and sit and smoke pot with them, you know, like drug dealers do. You have to like talk to the drug dealer for an hour. - Right. - And you become their friend. - Yeah, yeah, sure. - So I would go up there, you know, with my briefcase that my mother gave me for Christmas looked like a businessman's briefcase. Dressed like, you know, I was 22, it had shitty clothes. It, my must have stood out, thinking my briefcase was gonna make me look like a businessman. I had like a $99 coat from Macy's that I was wearing. But I go there and I would fill that briefcase up with a couple of pounds of pot. And that's my, and bring it back to the city, take the train. - So you grew up in New York City? - No, I grew up in New Jersey, but then I was living in New York after college and moved into New York, dirt poor, living in shitholes. You know, you gotta start somewhere. Were you poor, ever? - I mean, just on my own, when I was just starting out, I was technically poor. - It's great. It's great when it's not, not great when it's happening. It's great when you look back and go, you know, 'cause I never went to war and there's nothing like bravery, the bravery of the soldier, whoever else's brave, they say about actors, you know. She's so brave, oh fuck, she put on a fake nose for a movie. Okay, that's not exactly D-Day, you know, you brave. But I'm glad I had something that I could look back and go, wow, that was a trial to get through those 10 years where I really was, you know, poor living in shitty places and worrying about every penny and scraping by. - And makes everything after, you know, you think more? - Yeah, I was pretty much here in LA during that period. - Why, 'cause you moved here? - In Hollywood. - After college, I went to college and my student deferment and, yeah, ended up here and got a job in Beverly Hills. - But you came here because you wanted to be in show business? - Yeah. - Or you did, you knew or right away? - Filmmaking, I thought of it as film making, but now, now today I realize it's just show business. It's like entertainment. - It's both. - It's both. And I worked for a comedian, Ken Shapiro, and he lived on the Summit Ridge Drive. He made a film called The Groove Tube. - I know The Groove, with Richard Belzer. - Yeah. - Who I started with. - I mean, he was my mentor. - Right, so Ken and you were close. - The Groove Tube, of course. - Yeah. - That was a legendary underground movie, but I mean, we're talking about early '70s, right? - '72, yeah. - And it was edgy comedy. - It was just like Saturday Night Live, except it was a film, and-- - Before Saturday Night Live. - Yeah, and Lauren Michaels worked for Ken as a screenwriter when he was pitching Saturday Night Live. - Okay. - The comedy did tend to have like lots of different things, like spoofs, and in his case, he had the news, and he had musical numbers, and things like that. - Can we still see The Groove Tube? - Yeah. - If we-- - You can see it on YouTube. - Yeah. - How ironic. - Yeah. (laughs) - Yeah, 'cause it was almost forecasting that. - Yeah, I remember Belzer. That was one of his big credits when I used to bring him on stage, it catch your rising star. - Yeah. - He was starring in The Groove Tube, and Chubby Chase. - And you wrote on it? - No, I thought I would write for him maybe, but I just became a production assistant, and he had a lot of comedians come in. He had a Paramount deal, and when Lauren Michaels went from LA, Lauren Michaels was writing one of the scripts, called Mob Bell, which is about the phone. phone freaks. - Freaks. - That were cracking into the phone system, and calling the White House, and you know, they. - They did? - You could do that then? - Yeah, you could do funny tricks with the phone. And the guy they were writing about was hacking into the phone system headquarters, and having them send him trucks and telephone poles, and computer chips, that he would sell to the rival from the company. - Computer chips? - Yeah, four chips, of whatever kinds of boards they had. - Telegram chips. - Yeah, circuit boards. And he was still dead to Western Electric for big money. And he, so he was a millionaire at 16. He was a phone, so they were writing that script, which never was filmed. And Lauren Michaels got an okay to do, at least one Saturday night that they were traveling and setting up Saturday night live, and he offered Ken to come with him to do it. And Ken had worked in New York TV for, since he was a child, since he was 10. He was on the. - And he turned this down? - And he turned it down. He, as a 10-year-old, he was on the Milton Burl show. - On a bad decision. - It was a thing. - The guy, remember the guy who turned down the Beatles? He could have managed the Beatles. - It was just like that. - I don't think these mop top groups are going anywhere in the industry. Frankie Avalon has a new head record out that I think the kids are gonna go crazy for, you know? - Yeah, I don't know. - So then you just totally get it wrong. Does he still ruin the day? - He died of cancer, but he would watch that in the night live. I would join him watching every week, and some of the bits were hangovers from. - I'll bet. -. their previous period when they were. - They had a storefront comedy theater. And so he was always saying, "I'm gonna see them for that, for that bit or that." - And. - It's always the roughest when they, 'cause capitalism is just blood and tooth. It is as raw as it gets. They will fucking slit your throat. That's the nature of it. And great things do come out of it. It has provided more wealth and taken more people out of poverty than anything. It's not even close. But it is a tooth and claw. And if you have an idea, they will steal it. If they can get away with it at all, very brazenly. It's tough, like, if you're an inventor, because you almost don't want to go for the patent, because they'll find out about it and do it, and they're a big company with lawyers, and they'll just take it and do it before you think it's. - For sure, yeah. - One of the rotten parts, but I mean, after all, we are not comedists. - And it feels, maybe it feels good if somebody steals your stuff. It's worth stealing. - That's a very charitable way to look at it, 'cause I am not as much a person. - I mean, if they steal your idea, they're never gonna be able to do it like you would do it. - So they steal the concept? - Oh, that's true. That's true. When my show politically incorrect went on in 1993, there were a bunch of imitators shows, and I remember worrying about that. And my producer at the time, such a smart guy, and he said to me one day, he said, "Bill, we can't teach people here how to do it." Like, the writers and stuff. They were like, "This was a very new concept." And we're trying to tell them how to do it, and they don't get it. You know, they did it eventually. But so you're right about that. But they also can just, it depends on the kind of idea, but yes, exactly. I mean, look at, in music, there's always these lawsuits about, "You stole my song." You, that is my song, and you just put a tambourine on it, or whatever. And sometimes I hear it, and sometimes I don't. I mean, Robin Thick got sued for doing Marvin Gaye with blurred lines. I never heard the similarity. - Yeah. - And George Harrison famously got sued for My Sweet Lord. - From the Sharifans. - Yeah, he's so fun. I get bad. - But that's definitely similar. - Yeah. - And then that, it was a classic rock and roll song that it's just as almost. - But until they had the lawsuit, it never, I knew the song, he's so fine, even though it's before my time, but it was an iconic song. But I never, when I was listening to My Sweet Lord, I never thought that. Once they said it, I heard it. To me, that's, you know, come on, man. It's like in football now with, you know, the replays. It's like, the guy just made an amazing catch. Let him fucking have it. Do we have to go over with this, like, this approved of film and like throw shit out because it's not perfect, you know. But you've done well with the critics. You think they, I feel like you're somebody has gotten generally. great notices. Yeah, because it's great work. The critics are the ones that probably saved me. To die for is to die for. Awesome. One of my offs, all-time faves. Well, Buck Henry. Buck Henry wrote it, I know. He's good, and if kids don't know, he also wrote the graduate, just to give you an example of what his brother wrote. Yeah, just watching the graduate. And it was on the first set of Night Live. Oh, the first one? Well, maybe the second season. He was one of the first hosts. He loved it. He's the one who was in the sketch, the famous samurai sketch that John Belushi did. Right. Belushi is samurai in here. That's awesome. Yes. Isn't that great? Is he still with us? No, he's not with us, but he, yeah, I was watching the group, the graduate, and saw, you know, like the style of comedy that was in "To Die For." You could see his, like, imprint. That film, what year is that film? 67. No. To die for. To die for? 90. 90. Yeah, 90. The 90s, though. Wow, that's what I think. Holy fuck. I would not have guessed that long ago. Yeah. Because it is, wow, then it's even more ahead of its time. Because, I mean, that media, hungry character, I feel like that only got more relevant. Yeah. Not that it didn't exist that, obviously, enough for you to do a great satire with it, but ever more. I mean, in the age of influences. I mean, that's exactly what her mentality is. Wouldn't you say? Yes, exactly. You should redo it before any of that happened. Yeah. I guess it was sort of happening on cable, because cable allowed a lot of first-timers to do the weather and to start out. So, they kind of had their version of TikTok on cable, but yeah, now they're everywhere. So, what about redoing it, guys? What do you think? We use Sabrina Carpenter and then Nicole Kidman-Roll, and she's married to Nick Fuentes. Let's do it. Do you have many sources of money to do it? Yeah. What about crowd sourcing? I mean, that's what we've been doing, yeah. No, literally. I mean, the hundred producers really is like a crowd sourced type thing. So, do you have to beg every single one of them? I mean, Nore helped us find, you know, probably 20 of them. Right. Because she was mixing around and and making it sound like it really good. Perhaps the most essential part of the, you know, operation. Yes. You know, sometimes people say, you know, who's the most essential part of your operation? And I say, well, I'm about to be 70. It's the makeup girl and then they laugh. I'm like, I'm not kidding. It's the makeup girl. Okay. Everything else, I have great help and great people, but I could do on my own like this. No, I'm just doing this. It's not that it's whatever it is, but makeup, no, no, no. That's, we need the good makeup girl and the good lighting and, you know, I mean, I know it's time to go and you can't even look good with lighting and makeup. There's a time to get off the stage and hopefully AI will solve that. I think it will. I've been saying for decades that what they should have come up with and maybe they will is what I always call the thin mask. When you're 35, they take a mask of your face and then when you're older, you're, you're always 30, like 35. Wow. And it just fits on and it's just perfect, but it's just, it's, and then you have the best of both worlds. You have the good brain that you get when you're older. The one that doesn't make all those unforced errors of your youth when you're fucking stupid, especially as a man. And you still look like you're 35. I mean, can you imagine what a baller you could be then? Yeah. It would be amazing. People are trying it just surgically, but, but that, I mean, it's hard to make it work. It's hard to make it work. I mean, I've seen it work. I think we all have, like, "Wow, that's very good." I mean, certainly Chris Jenner now is lauded, like she's the Rosa Parks of Blastic Surgery. You know, she somehow found this, this genius doctor and so she, "Okay." And she wears it proudly and it's a great, I mean, you know, it's as good a job as they can do. And a few other people it's worked for. Other people, it settles after about, you know, right away it looks terrible. But five years in, you're like, "Okay." But then you still got, you know, for five years, you're a man and you look like a Chinese schoolgirl. Yeah. Okay, you're well, I was that good. And then, okay, great, five years down the road, you know, it's the same with tits, you know, not that you'd know. Never so any tits. Never was never was interested. Not even you. I don't know, mildly interested, yeah. Mildly? Yeah. When did you realize tits were not for you? Maybe Playboy Magazine. I was like, like, this isn't, you know, sort of thing. I'm supposed to think, I'm supposed to really play girl. They had a playgirl, which was a little after-light time. My first, the very first press I ever got was Playgirl Magazine. I was interviewed in Playgirl. I was thrilled that a magazine wanted to talk to me. And when it came out, you know, there's a table of contents page at the beginning of a magazine. So between each story, they had a little picture from the story. So there's my face for my interview. And right above me, it was the story about naked firemen. And there's a guy, and his dick is like coming right down almost into my picture. And I still have it, and I'm still very proud of it. That's cool. Both the picture and the dick. I never saw, I didn't wasn't really aware of Playgirl first. I was reading, I guess, national ampune or something like that. Oh, that was my Bible. Yeah, that was amazing, right? Oh, I mean, when I was younger, it was Mad Magazine. Yeah, me too. Which? I had a subscription. Yes, I had a subscription. I still have the covers. There's some covers here. There's one on the wall somewhere around here of a Mad Magazine. It was from the '60s, and of course, they're sort of making fun of the hippies. That was a new thing, you know, but also- And the Blockbuster movies. Blockbuster. They were- Oh, yes. You know, do the cartoons about mutinies? Sure. I mean, on the bouncy, as they call it. Which were hilarious. And the fold-in, member of the Mad Magazine in the back. But it was, when I got to be the age where lampoon came out, it was like perfect time, because I was ready to graduate from Mad, which all respect to Mad. But it was not long. Yeah. lampoon was definitely a step up of sophistication-wise and guts. Yeah. Yeah, it was fantastic. And not liberal, by the way. It took a- because it was- because really, if you look at something dispassionately with the most jaundiced eye, you're going to find, as I do now, a lot of problems with liberalism, even though they're- I think they were basically liberal and I am too. But they didn't shy away from making fun of hippies and all that kind of stuff. That came along right when I needed that in my comedic- PJ or- PJ or rock, I always say. And John Hughes, his- his pieces were very Samuel Beckett- But PJ then became the editor. I mean, they had the main guy. And some- I still have those issues. I mean, the amount of really funny stuff they packed in was impressive and- he's also somebody whose DNA goes into Saturday Night Live, because lampoon was also- Yeah, they had sourcing that. They had their- they had their plays, would stop- their lamings. Yes. They also had like national lampoon off Broadway. Yeah. I have the album. It's this- Oh yeah, the album. Bill Murray is singing on it. Chris Guests. Yeah. With some- Yes. And Michael O'Donnell? Yeah. I think was involved with that. And so a lot of that just came straight through and I was talking to Dana Carvey and David Spade. I was just saying, I have my issues with Lauren Michaels, but you cannot deny the- just the overwhelming influence that one factory had on, I mean, the way it pipelined, like almost all of our comedy movie people. Yeah. From Eddie Murphy to Bill Murray and Will Farrow and Kristen Wigg and Tina Fey. I mean, everybody, you know, like- I mean, for such a long time. That is still- Still today. Still today, sure. Hanging in there. And probably after he goes, the show will be doing that. The show will survive. It'll probably crash right after he goes. You think? Because of- I'm assuming maybe unless somebody learns his- His nature, somehow Lauren himself seems to hold it all together, even through the thick and thin. - And you don't think anyone else can do that? - I mean, I just think it's one of those magic things that like when the actual guy goes, they might feel like, why are we doing this? And you have to have that guy that's because I want to do it. - I don't think so, because I think Lauren has anointed people like Tina Fey or Colin Joe's who does the week in a, they've been around a long time. They know his ways, they're respected, they kind of make a succession, does kind of make sense. - I think they can make a bet. - Okay, great. - 100 dollars. - Oh, oh, fantastic. - How many years? - Well, you know, Gus, we're gonna be around for a very long time. So let's say in 25 years, when AI has us now. - Okay, let's say, well, I don't know, it depends on when he quit. He may never quit. - That's true. - So let's say, two years from when he quit. - Okay. - Got you. - 100 dollars. - 100 dollars. You're worth nothing, then. It won't be worth the paper. It's printed out. We'll be living in the one-marble public Gus. - That's a $6. - No, I think the key to that show is casting. The way they are able to always replenish the well. Not, they don't go eight for eight. Nobody's terrible. But they just, they do find stars. People who, and you go, well, you're right. You know, whoever had that eye and said, oh, this guy, this can be a woman is gonna be. And there's always people who you are like, oh wow, what a Kate McKinnon came along. And all the, and you're like, wow, just amazing the way they do that. That is what will make that show liver die, I think, more than anything else. Will they be able to? Was he the one who actually did that? Or was there somebody, I don't know the answer to that question. But if there's somebody else who was doing it for him or with him or could do it without him, the show will go on. If not, I don't think it will. - I feel it's probably him or his wife. - I think he has a great sense of, like, people who are funny, but also have a likeability, you know, Bill Hader. I mean, I could go on with all the people who really came out and I just were just a joy to watch. - And Blue-sheet almost. - Oh, that was almost five through. - Right, the first crew, you know. I mean, so, I don't know. I don't know what was with that first crew because like Bill Murray and Chevy Chase, both genius comics in their own right. - But both have terrible reputations. - Just like, you do not want to be on a set with this asshole. - And, you know, I don't, that's so odd that both of them would be on the same show at the same time and then become that person. I don't know why, but, you know, I'm sure you've been on your share of sets with people who are, you know, I mean-- - To get along, I mean. - Look, I was on acting sets for about 10 years in the 80s when all of us young comics came out and were on sitcoms and we thought that's the way to get ahead silly movies. And I don't remember any set where there wasn't some blowup or some people are so on such a air trigger, you know, that's their instrument. I don't have to tell you about their instrument 'cause I'm sure you hear about it from them all the time. And it's true, you know, they want to tap into an emotional thing. A lot of times they keep themselves unhappy. That's why you never want to go out with an actress. You know, you don't want her doing Sophie's Joyce and coming home with that, you know. It's not gonna be, yeah, I can't get in the mood tonight. I had to cut a baby in half. - No. - But a set is sort of like a boiling pit. Anyway, it's always ready to, I feel like it's always ready to explode. - Yeah. - And a little thing like, you're in my eye line and then you were really-- - I don't really experience that when I'm shooting. - Oh, God. - Maybe because, I don't know why. I mean, I have-- - 'Cause you're nice. - I have exploded on a set, but-- - You have? - Yeah, but I've never seen. - No, I've never talked to you before and you're delighted to talk to, but I can't see you exploding. I don't explode, I can't explode. - Really? - Well, when it really gets, I guess. - And what would make you explode? - Maybe when the actors are unprepared. - No, not like nothing like that. - That were good. - Or if they just, they, there are certain actors that I've had a couple of times very rarely, would that need you to explode or else they're not gonna be happy? - Wow. - So they keep misbehaving, just so you explode and as soon as you explode, they're like really happy. And so I go, oh, that was it. - Which was? - I'm not gonna say good. - Oh, come on. - I know the early ones that you wouldn't know. - Mad, tellin'. - No, no, no, not films that you would have seen. Well, Malanoche, you know, this, oh, Malanoche was my first film. - No. - So there was a lead actor, you know, it was a very low budget film, it was a $20,000 film. So the lead actor, it's on criteria. You can see it, it's a film that exists. But he, Tim Streeter, he, he was from the theater and his friends had told him, look, you know this film, he's never, the filmmaker is never gonna finish it. He's just wasting your time. - You. - It's me. - The film maker. - Yeah. - And so he acted like that for, you know, a week or something like that. Until finally, I was, he was trying to like make a car like hit a mark, which is always really hard. And I was saying, no, just line it up with the rock that's next to the tire, you know, that kind of stuff. Until finally, I was throwing rocks at his head because he was complaining. And it was from the day of, before and the day before, the day before. - And having a rock in his head? - Yeah. - Through the open window of the car. And didn't hit him. My aim wasn't good. And he had to get out. - He had to get out. - He had to get out and run away 'cause I was still throwing the rocks. And then I was like, oh my God, now my actor is gonna quit. And I found him in an orchard. I sort of doubled around. So I wouldn't like, not, I would corral him. And I stopped him and I said, I'm so, so sorry. And he was like, no, it's great, it's fine, great. And I was like, you're kidding. You're happy now? He was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, all right, okay. - What a gangster you are. - I got it, we didn't know all this side of you. - I mean, if you would have probably done the same thing. Are you also telling me that you've seen this syndrome again? - Fuck, what, what, what, what? - But it's usually the actors that I think they need that. The certain, just, what is the psychological providence of that? I've never heard of such. - They have to see the director is committed. - Committed. - You know what I mean? - So it's commitment issues. - Yeah. - So that makes me like, I'm committed. Like, when I'm director. - Is it always men who do it? - They're women too. - So far. Well, that's interesting. - Dad's interest. - Maybe not, maybe not. I can't remember. - The women did that. - But on, yeah. - Well, I guess a director was kind of a daddy role. - Yeah, you have to be the dad. - You're the dad. - I'm not a very good dad. - And discipline is love. - Yeah. - One reason kids are so fucked up today is because we forgot that very essential part of human nature. To a child, discipline, not over-discipline, not beating them and shit, but discipline translates as love. And you have to be able to take your child's wrath because they will be mad at you. And just take it. Modern parents are such pussies that they can't handle it. They can't handle their kid being mad at them. So they're constantly coddling them and modifying them and kissing their ass and pretending they're just shorter adults whose opinions are just as valid. It's certainly worthy of debate. And they're not. They're stupid. They're like dogs, they're children. To me, that's like the provenance of all our cultural slide is that parents just fucked up their kids. And by the way, it fucked up their own life. 'Cause when you spoil your kid, no, your life is fucked. Because you're their chauffeur, you're just always over them. You have no free time. They come first always. My parents were like that. I doubt if yours were in that era, right? Were you free-range? No, I mean, there was discipline. Right. Yeah, like, Orson was used to fire somebody on the first day in front of everybody. So it was the script person or the DP here. So he would fire them. Just scared the shit out of him. So everyone would see in the name, like, continue. That's kind of brilliant. I mean, not good for the person, but, you know, capitalism. I mean, what's more important, that a script girl got her feelings hurt. I feel bad, but we have citizen Cain now. Yeah. Or, what do you think of citizen Cain? I watch it like every five years, hoping to find not that it's bad. It's good. But hoping to find the thing in it that has always landed in it like the number one greatest of all time and you don't see it I don't I don't see it. Do you yeah, but I saw it when I was no Do you see the thing that makes it that great you do tell me why I do because But I started by watching it in when I was 14 in English class So we were you know watching a movie in English class, which is kind of like goofing off You know you have to see a movie in your flat. I know it was a progressive class and hook and I Think it was simple enough like the you know the idea that there was this this word that he said when he died that this All movie looking for the secret and that nobody finds it, but you see the Spoiler alert it's let at the end and you're like, oh, it's like his childhood was you know It's answered the question is answered, but only you know the audience Had a lot of charm to it. And as a kid. No, that's definitely a great. And then all the all the things in between the Charactersations and him playing at 25 years old playing like all these different ages and also the Ramana clay that it's really William Randolph Hearst. Yeah, plus you know, we'll the reality behind. Yeah, that's amazing. I mean some of it is taken right from Hearst's biography, you know, you give me the I'll give you the war if you give me whatever they said it was but was secretly on the D.L. You know on the down on the down low who was well the name Rosebud was the name of his lovers Pagina that he had a pet or Sin Wells. No, no right first Randolph Hearst. So it's just a little job Which was the one who's portrayed in the movie the movie girl? Yeah, Marion Davies Marion Davies. Yeah, and and she wasn't that I mean The way he they had her in the movie she wasn't like the greatest piece of as of all time. What was it that like Enraptured him to her so much. Well, it was Rosebud. Who's there? Oh the pussy. She had like the magic pussy Yeah, which is within the movie and the within the jib to Hearst who is like, you know our Elon Musk Yeah, yeah, it just seemed so or we're pretty impressive Well, nine years old. I didn't know that part of it. Um or it's 14 years old But you quickly rejected it But I think that I think that people now Like younger filmmakers. It's can't quite get it's slipping off the list of number one pictures like my our age Could appreciate 30 30s movies Late 30s movies And the kids now are like just Slick, but I watch old movies frequently and some of them do not hold up That's true. I mean I was recently watching both What's Up Doc? Which was a remake of bringing up baby um and then watch tried to watch bringing up baby It's it's it's I've said it before but it's a heavy lift To bring 1935 to 2025. It just is it's in century almost and The remake in 72 or whatever with Peter Bogdanovich did it with Streisand and Ryan O'Neill is fantastic It's fantastic and they yeah, and that's already I'm already that's a 70 to that's a very old movie But not as old and and and still sings with contemporary music the other one You know, it was just two does two ancient But some of them like sunset boulevard totally holds up. Yeah, crackling for dialogue Sinister wilder. Yeah, Billy Wilder really had it You know, you can't ever get me off gone with the wind. Oh really? Yeah, you know like it It's one of those movies that I haven't seen it recently so maybe I have to see it again see whether it holds up it's It's it has really good things about it that I like wasn't scarlet It's kind of a gay icon No, I don't think so scarlet or harrowing so I think I think I think Judy Garland that Judy Garland we know It's not the gay world. I travel then really I thought she was because you know, she was like survivor Yeah, you know like I will never stop again. That's true. She should be she should It's research it. I think I used to see I think they I think she kind of was there's so many strong like female Leeds that are gay icons. I'll always you know like for every she's the perfect one though. Yeah, she probably is Although, you know, maybe maybe it's because she's kind of a cunt like the the movie really doesn't make sense Because she's she pines for the stiff that Ashley Wilkes Mm-hmm. Who's like about as sexy as oatmeal Ashley as someone once at a Doris day Yeah, that's true and she's married to the bad boy. She should be married to the stiff and pining for the bad boy That makes sense. Maybe that's why I didn't like it that much But it just shows charisma and smart snappy dialogue Of very talented good-looking charismatic guy can make up for a lot There's lots of movies that make no sense. I don't like it makes no sense. I don't give it down Oh, yeah, which isn't a snappy today, but well in 1939 it was it was they had to put it as the last line in the movie the word damn Because otherwise people would have walked out So they put it at the very end when they're walking out anyway, which was kind of I that's so fucking gangster doing that like okay We're gonna get this in but yeah, can you imagine how again? To ask a movie from 1935 to be relevant or interesting today when we're talking about an era when the word damn Was so outrageous that people would leave a theater? That's a big gap to try to bridge Do you ever did you ever do a period piece? No, let's see. I think I was always stuck in the 70s Most of the films are in the 70s. I guess that's a lot even the dead man's wire. That's the 70s Yeah, yeah, yeah, right But you know, I never you know I haven't ever done a period piece and I wonder if I Ever will probably at this point. I won't but So yeah, didn't man's wire is white ears because you could tell by the 77 77 So I was 21. I was at Cornell. I was not happy But I didn't think about putting a shotgun to my head But I don't remember that story see when you mean either I think that it was probably I don't remember it at the time No, somebody brought this to you and yeah, I think if you were reading scouring the papers it would be in the papers But today it would be the most viable thing in the world I've got with a shotgun Yeah, like attached to his head because another guy Because I the first thing I thought it was we see man Joni Yeah, which is so relevant today. I mean, I hope your movie company is advertising it that way because I know they should We it's like this was Luigi before Luigi. This is a guy. Yeah, fucked over by the system and money and the people with the Who have the mind and again capitalism? It's not an untrue critic criticism capitalism does fuck people It's the it's the nature and the mortgage company. I mean real estate in general is You know favored by the government because it's some Progress building look at look at just in our business. How many people? Have had to to get the money the studio owed them Sue them, mm-hmm like this almost a odd at them and Sue and Sue You know, it's almost like accepted that they're just not gonna give you the money. They rightfully. Oh, right They're gonna have accountants and fucking asshole lawyers. Have you pretend that how you audited and actually had cash come just pouring out Or soon no because I'm not in your business. I'm a salary to employee mostly, you know, but In the movie business you can have points and such such and and so even if the movie is a big hit They will find a way to say Well, it wasn't, you know, we we had to spend money on Whatever it is. They're lying and then you sue them and then you get your money, but That's again, yeah, the nature of our system. It's just like yeah, the movie business It's like that and stoggy dog. It's a Kind of a recapitulation of nature. You know, I mean if I was God and inventing the universe and life I don't think I have this system be well everything's trying to kill each other That's the nature of it when when I eat meat and I am a pita person, but When I do I don't feel that bad because it's not like I'm doing something to an animal that they don't do to each other But why design a system we're like Everything is always trying to kill each other if you're starting from scratch, you know Why the hunger game is for everything out there? Yeah, yeah The hawk is trying to eat the mouse and the mouse is trying to eat the lizard and the lizard is trying to eat the bull. Yeah, it just happens if you just let it go. It's the worst system. Yeah. It's just why. It's cruel. But even the little, if you look at a single cell organisms, they're trying to eat each other. They are? Yeah, a little leabas, yeah, they're like biting and like consuming each other. Really? I didn't think, yeah, I guess how does it get nutrients? So maybe there's other ways. Do you say a meabre of their cannibals? They'll eat their own shot. I mean, in certain cases, I don't think, I don't know, every single cell organisms are cannibals, but certainly some of them are. What's your religious take? If that's not too personal, I mean, do you have a religion? You're an atheist, agnostic, you're spiritual. Yeah, I have a take. Yeah. What do you minimize? My take is that we aren't smart enough ourselves to figure it out, to know what it is. It's exactly what I say. Everybody's trying to figure it out, but you never don't because as soon as you die, it's like, "Oh, that's what's going on." Whatever you think it could be, it's not going to be that. It's not going to be us. It could not agree more. I say it all the time, that religious people have this imagination, this thought in their head, that there's, I picture a wall, and then the other side of the wall is the answer to what happens when you die. If they just jump a little higher, they'll see over the wall. But they don't realize that the wall is a million miles high. I feel like I'm an agnostic. I think that there is something. The same thing as an atheist. It is. It's just very similar. Yeah, well, atheists are saying there isn't anything. No, atheists are not. Atheism, it's just, as Dawkins says, atheism just means atheism. It's just you are a theist. You believe in gods. We don't. It doesn't mean we're saying we know. We're just saying we don't do that. And he always says, you know, in ancient times, they believed in hundreds of gods. And then it got down to one. And we just took away that last one. Right. But a lot of your stuff is about mortality. I mean, you do seem to think even including this last one is really, again, a guy with a shot to his head. It's like you do seem to think about death a lot in your pictures. No? Yeah. Am I wrong about that? I do. I think as a convention, as a, you know, a conflict that the characters have to face, it's compelling as a story device. And it's also, I think, compelling in life, you know, like in general. But obviously, I don't think it's by design either. I think I've adapted a lot of pieces that are by people that are thinking about death, not necessarily myself. I mean, I was going to say at the older we get, the more it's on our mind, but then I realized, no, wait a second. I thought about death more and a lot. And in a much more serious way, when I was 19, when I was first off to college and my life sucked. And no girls, no, it was cold, you know, new place, you know, friends, really. It was just bleak. And of course, if I could have gotten laid once, I would have stopped being suicidal. But I mean, death was on my mind in a way it hasn't been since. And that's young. So it kind of just never nod on your mind. Like the Woody Allen movie where the, you know, seven-year-old is upset and they ask him why. And he says, oh yeah, the universe is expanding. He says, don't talk about stuff like that. The mom gets mad at him. It's him as a seven-year-old. I think it's a radio days. Yeah. He was here recently. Really. Yeah. Cool. What a, what a, it's funny. Prolethic. Yo, so funny. I mean, you ever listen to those early albums? Really funny. Yeah, I mean, do you remember when he came on the scene because you would have been around that age that would be very interesting? Yeah, I mean, he was, he was really popular in the 60s. Oh, yeah. He represented like, right, hippie culture kind of. There was three artists who came about almost at the exact same time. All of whom, Streisand, Bob Dylan, and Woody Allen. All of whom were, I don't think people can imagine. Yeah, you can, Taylor Swift certainly was on that level. But like, really took over pop culture and changed it. And a couple of years after that, Muhammad Ali in sports. I don't know if people know. I mean, again, this is a little before my time to understand it while it was happening. But soon after, I was, it wasn't that long ago that I could, oh, wow, that was so cool. And Muhammad Ali was cool to me. It was a very fervent time for like, and Kennedy. In office, it was a very big breath of fresh air. The youngsters were taking over. Kennedy being young, young dish. Yes. But I feel like took over and made it better. Maybe that's mine, nostalgia. Whereas, I don't know if I would trust the young people to take over today. I mean, I don't know if I can, and they will. Anyway, well, they probably have. Already, I mean, you know, it's inevitable. But they have some just really screwy ideas. I mean, when I see them marching with the kafayas for Hamas. And like, wow, you somehow found your way to championing the most oppressive people in the world. In the name of how much you hate oppression. And like, I don't know if I can trust that mind that learned everything on TikTok to take over. And it's one reason why, by the way, the Democrats get accused of being geriatric, Nancy Pelosi, and Biden. Yeah, they are. And part of it is because they don't trust their own young people. The young people on the left are kind of crazy. The young ones on the right are just like, I mean, they're goofballs. They're bros, you know, like, love the macho shit, like blowing up boats. But yeah, they're dangerous. But there is a cookiness on the left. What is, like, Manjani? Like that, yeah. I mean, they think communism is worth another try. Because again, they didn't learn anything in school. The schools failed them. Stop teaching them shit. Whatever they get through TikTok is filtered through somebody's agenda. Maybe China. Maybe, you know, just some bulk people. Maybe I've gone on other sites like Trump's Truth Social. It's the other way. It's just mega things. Nobody's getting the full story. So, you know, what's swimming around in their brain was not shaped by the school system dispassionately as it was in our day. I mean, I don't remember any politics in school. They were not indoctrinating me into anything at any level, including at Cornell. Just teaching me, just educating me. What about the other students though, when they opposed to the war and getting dropped out? You know, that's the part. Interesting you say that. It's the one moment I remember where there was a little politics. There was at a history teacher, Mr. Jager, or Jager, I forget. But we kind of knew he was kind of like a Bill O'Reilly, you know, kind of, that's how I think of him, you know, conservative and, but again, it was very, it was not overt. And there was a, there was a mass demonstration or something against the Vietnam War in 1969. And I think we were talking about it in class, which we didn't used to do, but it somehow it came up and we could tell he cast a dim view of protesting what the government was doing in Vietnam. But that's about the only-- What about McCarthy? McCarthyism. Joseph McCarthy. Yeah. Well, that's-- And Reikon. I mean, that's way before my time. But I mean, we could have studied that or we would know about it in school. I don't remember ever studying it, but you can only imagine that something like that today could never be studied dispassionally. Somebody would be like, "Would it good chambers?" And the other one would be like, who was the other guy, Wittaker Chambers, and the guy who had the secrets in the pumpkin, remember that whole scandal? Yeah. Oh, the Rosenbergs, you know, the same era. Yeah, they seemed like chaffed by Reikon. Reikon. You think? So you think the Rosenbergs did not pass secrets to the Russians? I think that, yeah, I think that just knowing Reikon, no. I'm knowing about Reikon. I never knew him personally. But did you see the apprentice? Yes. So great, right? That's really great. That's a great movie. And a great portrayal. I mean, usually, you know, that is a fun movie, even if the performances weren't so great, which the both were, but normally, I can't enjoy a movie if there's just a great performance. You know? Yeah, you need the-- I do. Context. Some people do, you know. To me, it's like a guitar solo. It's like, it's got to be-- I like the song. You know? Of course. But I feel like-- I don't think there is such a thing as just a great performance. What do you mean? A movie that is known for only the performance without, like, what the performer is supposedly performing. Really? Yeah, that it has to have a basis. I mean, it could be something simple, but-- I bet you I could find one, but you may be right. I mean, Lenny, that Dustin Hoffman did, I thought was a great performance. I don't think it was a great-- The movie wasn't a good movie. And I don't-- You know, actually, I don't think that-- Yeah. Fortunately Dustin Hoffman, who's still alive-- You say, unfortunately, that he's still alive-- No, unfortunately. No, no, no. He's still alive though, unfortunately. He's not funny. He's funny, like, as a character in the graduate, but he can't deliver a joke. But to me-- In Lenny. That is not. So every single time-- You're right. He's going, I like this. Right. And it's not funny. Lenny does it. It's fantastic. As a comedian. Because you have that footage of Lenny really doing it. We hate it when people play comedians, because you can't play it. It always looks bad. You're right. But the context of Lenny also was kind of fabulous that he was trying to just allow language to live, and the open, as opposed to, like, the seven ways. Easy words. Pioneer. I stand upon his shoulders. Yeah. The fact that I could have spent my life traveling around this country, saying whatever the fuck I wanted in theaters from mobile Alabama to Maine, and nobody ever threatened to barge into that auditorium and arrest me because I was saying pussy and content and fuck and fuck Trump or whatever it was. That I owe to somebody. And if people don't know, that was not the case in the '60s. He was arrested nine times. I think he had six trials. I mean, he was always fighting the law. I mean, we basically had blasphemy laws. It's crazy. On his own, too. He was the one man. Right. Bad. Kind of. Yeah. Decided that these words should be said. And thoughts. Not just words. Concepts. Yeah. Questioning religion. And nobody talked about, you know, sex in a raw way, like anal sex. That was just something that, even though edgy as comic. And certainly, Morty Gunnty and Jackie Mason were not talking about fisting and, you know, and he just went. And he did. Where everyone, where no man feared tread, you know, he was, but funny. You know, I mean, just the performance of Dustin has Lenny. But then Lenny himself was just innately, I mean, he, maybe he learned how to be that way, but he, he, um, was definitely funny. Delivery. He was. You think Lenny Bruce was? Yeah. See, when I've listened to the records, the pacing is so different than today. Again, times, they just change, they do, folks. It's just so much slower before he gets to something, sometimes. And we have been trained, including me, I think. And certainly the way I did comedy, you know, I would just never let that long a time elapse before I got to something that was making people laugh. But in towards the end, he's reading his transcripts from, and then there's that. There's that. That's it. But he's definitely was fast, you know, depending on which recording. But, um, just reading the book, Lenny Bruce, ladies and gentlemen, Lenny Bruce, is like just the history of the, you know, New York comedy scene and all the bars and the guys that own the bars and the comedians that like Dangerfields and the comedians that they were, uh, stealing from, you know, their material from the, the table comics that couldn't go on the stage. But like Lenny could learn from them and like actually present them on, you know, impersonate them. Not have had like his own funny soul, but he adapted it, you know, and in that book, they're sort of describing him coming back from San Francisco and all of a sudden he was this full blown comedian. Yeah, he was a rock star to a certain group. But I feel like in that era again, we're talking about late fifties, you know, we're, you know, a, I mean, he was, you know, sort of the John the Baptist for the ones who came a little later, like Woody Allen, who became the stars. But then in the fifties, it would be like jazz and then like a comic and then some more jazz, you know, they would like trade off. The comics were always coming. Yeah. The beat nicks weren't the beat nicks. Like Duranty. Who liked that? Jimmy Duranty. Jimmy Duranty. Yeah. Was what? He'd be, he'd be on stage, you know, between the jazz acts. So, you know, the, and the jazz, the comic comedian club or the jazz clubs were, you know, partly like comedy. And then the beat nicks weren't even, they were maybe listening to the jazz, but they didn't seem to figure into the. It was a show called Dobie Gillis. Mm-hmm. You remember that? Yes, really well. Okay. Now, that was just when I first was watching TV, I didn't think I got it all and maybe it was on a little too late for me, but my recollection was, "College Kids," and there was a character, Manard G. Krebs, played by Bob Denver, who later became Gilligan. Yeah. And I think he was the beat nick, right? And that was like, yeah, the hipster beat nick, yeah. And that was like, you know, it was like, when you look at it, we're talking about 59, 60 or something like that, like that was this weird, new thing. And you could see that there was this, in a new generation, you know, just the seeds of an idea that 10 years later, with the hippies, then that would full flower, you know, free love and the women's movement. And I mean, certainly when I was first, you know, thinking about girls, free love was just like a really new thing. Yeah. Like, really, you could, you could fuck this girl without marrying her, you know, it was a very new, exciting idea, very exciting to me, because I wanted to both fuck and not marry you with. Love the one you're with. Yeah. Yes. Lyrics too. Yeah. That's just an airplane or something. No, no, that's Stephen Stills. Stephen Stills. Okay. I think. Maybe with Buffalo Springs. Yeah, exactly. Something like that. Well, you must, you were at an age when you could have actually, so you could have gone to Woodstock. I was 13. I couldn't. I was on my way. I was 16. No. You were going to go to Woodstock? Yeah, but I had a job in New York and I couldn't leave until Friday afternoon and by Friday afternoon, it was a disaster area and the, the forces, you know, the president was flying in food and water because, and we were still going to go. My friend and I were going to hop in a car and drive to Woodstock, which was only a couple of hours from Connecticut. But 16? Yeah. You could've seen what you didn't ask your mother or you didn't have to, or she said, go. Well, they know they said you're not going there. You're not. And on the news, you could see the footage of, like, the sea of people. And we said, well, we're going to meet, you know, Jim and Tim at the, they're in front of the stage and we got to meet them and my parents were just refused to let us go. So we listened to the parents because we thought, yeah, it is kind of like an odd, you know, natural disaster. But you went, you should. No, we didn't go. I was on my way. Oh, I should. But I was stopped. So what's your, what's your, got your eye on next? No, this movie, how play will get the Oscar recognition it deserves? The lead guy certainly should get a something. He's great. So I don't know him. He was a little scars guard. No, the other scars guards. He was cut in to me. He was the lead and it, he was it. I never got in the sewer. Is that the one about the, the clown? Yeah, it's more like for, almost for kids, but he was the scary guy and it, but he's done a lot of work and I had seen him in a number of films and just thought he was great. I'd worked with his dad in good will hunting, stolen. Love scars guard. Love him. Who's on? He is. I think he's up for something, sir. Yeah, they're, they're movies up for. Yeah, because I said to, I was, so my friend Sean Penn on Thanksgiving and I said, you are definitely going to win for, um, what's the, absolutely I agree. What's that movie is? Uh, it's one battle, one battle after another. Which I liked. Um, I, I loved him and I, it took me a while to figure out, oh, yeah, he's going to win because who else is going to? He's good. Well, he's going to win. First of all, he's a great actor because he's no doubt about that. He's also like somebody who is well-caproved, so that's good. And then the movie is well-caproved. So that's good for the academy and also icing on the cake. At the end of the movie, spoiler alert, he is horribly disfigured and so he does the last Tuesday. with a super fucked up face. Oscar! I think we have to look any further. -Sweetie. -I don't know. It's to make room on the shelf. Like, he's at that age where they want to give him a victory lap. And he deserves it. And even if he wasn't, it is a great performance. It's like, you don't have to apologize for it. All these things make it easy to give it to him. But it also is an awesome performance. And it's supporting. He plays the bad guy in a movie that liberals like. Which is like, oh, great. Somebody had to do that. Somebody had to step up and take a bullet and be the bad guy. Be the conservative. -I wonder if he knew that going in. Probably. Sean knows everything. But he definitely is just, you know, he's just, you know, one of those actors that comes along, you know, maybe, you know, one or two in a generation who just kills every part. He can't take your eyes off him. And maybe it's because, you know, as a person, he is, I always say, Sean will never find a movie part that is as interesting as his own life. You know, everybody else in the sound is a funny who talks and talks and talks. And he walks the walk. He goes to Syria. He gets people out of Washington. He goes to Katrina. You know, he is the most interesting man in the world. -Have you gone with him? -What? -Fuck no. I told him, I don't go anywhere east of La Brea. Okay. I'm not here, I'm not here, I'm not here. Well, man, he is great. You know, I don't feel bad for him. It's an old saying, don't pity the martyr. He likes his job. -Yeah. -You know, he likes doing it. And he's good at it. And he's a man of action at El Chapo. Oh, that's insane. This guy's alive. -That's right. -So for him to find a part that's like interesting like that, like in that, again, spoiler alert, when he has to, like, get a heart on. Just from looking at this girl at his age, good luck with that. Okay. And I say that as an over-sexy, heterosexual, but it was, I mean, I assume that was the part of it where I'm supposed to say, and I did say, and I was happy to say, this is a black comedy. Wouldn't you say that it's a black comedy, that movie? -Yeah. -So I was to die for. -To die for it as well? -Totally. Which, maybe my most favorite genre. -Yeah, it's a great-- I mean, also one battle after another is not just a black comedy. So otherwise, I think it might be in trouble, but it's, like, really easy for the studio. Or not easy, but it gets by. And it, you know, it's going to win the Oscar. -Yeah, thank you. -So I've never had a chance. It was too dark. -Really? -Yeah. -Too dark. -Wow. -I mean, especially for the studio. They wanted to sell it as a romantic comedy. And they tested it as a romantic comedy. And the tests were, like, really low, like 30% or so. -Yeah. -And they couldn't figure it out why. -Yeah. I guess it gets harder and harder in the age of Spandex and AI and shit to sell people on, you know, thoughtful stories. You know, like the one you have up now that's, like, you know, about something but still entertaining. You know, I don't want to watch a movie and just be sad. I did a piece one year about the Debbie's, Debbie Downer, you know, because all the movies were, like, super downer. Remember No Mad Land. And, you know, it's one thing to make me think. But don't let me go home and want to get in the bathtub with the toaster, okay? You know? -That one, the Oscar, though. -Of course, because the Academy changed from having the Oscars be a ceremony that was about, look at what good pictures we make to look at what good people we are. I mean, I saw the list for the Golden Globes. I'm sure there's some great movies there. I hadn't heard of a number of them. The only one I heard of, for sure, I think was the one we were just talking about. Other ones were like-- -Yeah, and then it was like something from Brazil, maybe Korea, Iran, you know, like, I'm sure these are great movies, but they're not exactly the crowd pleasers that, you know. And, you know, I'm debating whether to go to the Golden Globes. I'm nominated for my stand-up special. -Oh, excellent. -Congratulations. -Yeah, thanks. I've never had a great experience with award shows. And I think I just think the whole thing is kind of barbaric the way they get these people who are needy, and certainly known as needier than show people, to, like, sit there and, like, please, please say you like me. And it's like, you know, I had that mentality the first 25 times or whatever they nominated me, and I was like, OK, you know what? I get it. I'm not a award show bait exactly, you know. Kind of, like, with your two-die-four thing, with what you were saying. But, so, like, why torture yourself? And, you know, being a room where you're put into it's just-- -I love the expressions when people-- they have the stills of all the contestants-- the people up for the award. -Nominies, you mean? -Nominies. -We're not contestants. -Gosh, for Christ's sake. You treat us like animals. Is that what you think of us? We're contestant, yes. -Well, you're right. But one of them wins, but all four of the other nominees, they have to do something. So sometimes they look sad. But a lot of times they're like, great. And you know they don't mean it. -They're actors. -They're acting. -Yeah. -It's-- -Well, see, that would be number one. -No problem. -I'm sure I'll never win. And when I lose, I'm not an actor. So I just be like, fuck, let's get out of here. Because that's what I would be saying. It's like, OK. -Yeah, let's go. -I came, I lost. And, you know, let me get out of here. But it is tempting because I have lost over 20 Emmys. I lost at the Grammys for a spoken word. I was almost nominated for an Oscar for my documentary "Religulus." And they felt so bad about not nominating me. They asked me to give out the award. I was the presenter. So I'll count that as losing an Oscar. And also a Tony, kind of a stand-up on Broadway that was nominated, didn't win that. So I would be like the anti-Egot, if I also couldn't somehow not win the Golden Globe. I could have a full panoply of our total empty shelves. -Yeah, yeah. -You're going to win or not? -I mean, first of all, I resent the words win when we talk about award shows. Because they say it in the same way they talk about sporting events. -Yeah. -But it's not the same. -It's not the same. -You know, when the Eagles won the Super Bowl, it's because they actually beat the other team. It's not somebody's opinion that they beat the Chiefs. -Yeah. -They actually did it. -That's true. -This is just somebody's opinion. -Okay. -But it's like a political. -But anyway, I hope you win. -I hope you're nominated and you win all these awards. Because, you know, if you do, suddenly the money gets easier to get, you think? -Yes, even if you're like coming close to it, the attention, yeah, is good. -That's why it's, you know, again, it's ridiculous or they talk about it like he won, like God proclaimed. No, some people thought that was good. Lots of others didn't. Okay. But it affects the actual commerce. And you know, the whole thing, the Oscars were started and actors wanted to unionize. And Louis B. Mayer said, to distract them, he said, hang metals on them. -Oh, wow. -And they'll forget about it. -I didn't know that. -Yeah. -20s, or? -Yeah. -Or maybe the 30s. -There will be the 30s. -30s? -Well, no, because it started in the late 20s. I think the first one was 29 or something. -Wow. -Didn't Wings win the first? -Yeah, yeah, that's 20s. -The Howard Hughes. -The Howard Hughes. -Yeah, Howard Hughes. That's right. -It's depicted in Scorsese's biography of him, right? But he shoots the planes. And then he's like, oh, we got to throw it all the way. We need clouds. Because without the clouds, people don't see. They have nothing to see how fast the planes are going. It doesn't look real. You got to love that. -You know how hard? -Well, just that kind of dedication. -Yeah. -That there are people like that. I've had the dollars to do it. Just redo it. -Yeah. Are you always an on-budget guy to do this? -Yeah, I just stay on budget. -The studio. -They trust you to leap beyond time and on budget. -I think technically they can't just trust you. I think the insurance companies have to like draw blood from you. -Plenty of movies have gone over time and over budget. -Yeah. If you're in a studio, I went to die for, for instance. -There were so many little bits that I was afraid that we didn't have enough days. And I was not. I was edging back from signing the contract because you have to sign this promise that you will keep on budget. And I couldn't guarantee. So I didn't want to sign it. So I called the president. I think I got, wasn't the president. It was Amy Pascal, who was a vice president. And it's an Amy. I can't sign this because I can't guarantee with all these. She just knew what happens if you go for a budget. And I said, no, what happens? And I said, we fly over there. We tell you to stop and be on budget. And then we fly away. And like, that's the whole-- And they're just going to-- They don't fire you. But what are they going to-- So they're just going to give you more money. But what are they going to not to abuse the money they're giving you? But they're not just going to eat the money that they've already invested in this. Yeah, they won't. In a way, you slap your wrist and then that's it. Right. Because you told me it's OK to sign. So I just signed it. It's kind of like the old thing about it. If you owe somebody a small amount of money, it's a debtor. But if it's a lot about a money, it's a partner. Yeah. They can't. They don't want to eat this, so they kind of have to. But there are stories about directors who kept-- I mean, Kubrick on Eyes Wide Shut, I think, kept Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman for like a year. More time than they thought. Then they thought. Yeah. But he didn't pay him more money. Really? No, it doesn't. Yeah, everyone-- that's the thing about Kubrick films. Everyone's working on a flat fee, but there's no guarantee of how long it's going to be. The crew, too. So I think there could be trouble sometimes on his films. But I think that Nicole and Tom probably were like, you know, we believe in this filmmaker and we're making something good. Well, it was cool. It was Kubrick. Yeah. Kubrick, after all the amazing movies he did. Yeah. So he had power. I could see why they thought this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I bet you they don't regret it. No, I don't think so, even. You know, even with all the-- it put them through. You either go with it or you can just laugh at it. I mean, it's so over the top if people don't remember. Like, again, it could be a dream sequence. Yeah. But he stumbles upon this secret society of, you know, the rich, powerful men and what they do is they get together at this awesome mansion. And there's like hundreds of people there. And the men are wearing masks and in cloaks. And it's very ritualized. And there's all these beautiful girls naked walking around. They have the mask on. And they have like a holding a staff with the ritual of this, you know, and there's ceremonies. And it's sort of semi-satanic. And he doesn't belong there because you have to be-- He's snuck in. He snuck in. And this is-- But he goes upstairs. And it's just room after room of people and they're fucking in the background. And it's just, you know, it's guys-- rich guys getting laid. You don't really need to rent a mansion and get masks to do it. OK. But it was a V&E's version of it in the 30s, 40s. Epstein's the junior power monger that had sex rings with teenage girls and powerful men. We don't know that is a thing. We don't know that. They weren't powerful men. Oh, they weren't powerful. Well, we don't know. We're talking about what we know as a fact, what we-- like Bill Clinton, if he was here, he'd be getting blown. No. If he was here, he would say, yes, you have the logs. I was on Epstein Island. But did I ever, you know, get more than a massage? There's a picture of him getting massage. He's got his clothes on. But there is a girl behind the massaging him. Maybe that's all there was to it. We don't know for a fact. Being Bill Clinton, who Hillary herself once described as a hard dog to keep on the porch. Right. I can imagine there was a little shenanigans. And certainly, Epstein was having sex. He himself was having sex with underage girls and deserved to go to prison. Not every guy that walked in the door. Yeah, like Woody, I'm not sure. Prince Andrew, yes, we know that. The guys we don't like, they are like, yes. No, I'm not saying that. They're all dirty dogs. They all would do it. Anybody who was on sex island, you know, at least a 50/50. Alan Dershowitz, Bill Gates. You know, I always said this about Epstein. When there's a guy who's like super rich and you don't know what he does, he's a pimp. And guys like Bill Gates, who are nerds, who are the opposite, they need a friend like Epstein. That's what it is. It's not because he's some financial genius. Right. Did you read the emails to him and back? Because he's like this love guru to these men who are asking him advice, like who's the dude at Harvard, the slurry summers? I think out. He was the Treasury Secretary under some abamers. You know, very powerful guy, still as a voice on the economy. But he's writing, you know, dear Jeff, there's this Asian girl in the office who I think likes me. How do I make my move? Signed, frustrated, and on Wall Street, you know what he's talking about. But there's like all that exchanges of money, though, as well, that goes along with those messages and letters. Money. Money. Yeah, that occurs in Epstein. Either he's a good investor, or they're just-- Oh, I see, yeah. Well, I don't think he was a bad investor, but I think he probably was doing something a lot of people could do. But he had this extra side game that was like, you know, invest with me, and you'll get, you know, 4.5. Get in return. Invest with this guy, you'll get 5.5. But with me, you'll also get blocked. Right. You know, this is like, OK. But that would be a good subject for you. Yes, really? You would do that? Well, I mean, until the-- The guy's at the end-- Yeah, the death is so interesting, too. Yes. How little it was investigated, and how they just were like, OK, he'd kill himself. What's your judgment on that? Did he kill-- killed himself? Somebody, you think somebody did it? I think somebody did it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, until everything's sort of in, it's hard to really make the story. It's halfway. I mean, from the photos I saw, I'm just speaking for myself. Yeah. I'm not exactly a boy scout. But I didn't know how I could if I wanted to kill myself in that situation. Yeah. I mean, maybe he was great with the sailors. Not-- I know. There didn't seem to be enough room to do it. I'm with you, yeah. So-- but also people are-- I don't know. I don't care. But all right, so if you're not going to do that, and we're not going to do the remake with Sabrina Carpenter, because you once did a remake, you did Psycho. Yeah, I loved that. I really loved that. Loved it. I remember-- You did? Oh, very much, I remember vividly. Yeah. It was a sort of proposal. Vince Vaughn was perfect. Yeah, he's creepy. I like him, but I mean, he's got the factor. He has a side. But I was making that mostly, because whenever-- when I was starting out with drugstore cowboy, the actors were sort of wanting to work with you. So that meant the studios wanted you to direct something, because they knew the actors would go with something that you would direct at. So I would have meetings at studios, really based because of actors. Not so much because drugstore cowboy did well, which it didn't really do well. So it was always in Casey Silver's office at Universal, who had Psycho. And every year or two, whenever a film would come out, the actress would go, like, we want to work with Gus. And so Casey would call me and say, let's get something going. You can-- he introduced me to people that handle the library of films. You could make a film from an old script that Billy Wilder wrote that hadn't been done. That kind of thing. Or you could remake one of the library pieces. And I was at the time in the '90s, early '90s. They were remaking everything from the Brady bunch to the Flintstones. They were remaking because audience recognized those characters. And they would be drawn to it. And those two films, of course, the kids could go, too. But I said, you know, why don't you really remake the film instead of kind of remake it, changing the ending, because they always changed the dark ending from the old movies, because the old movies had darker endings than our '90s movies. And they would just laugh and say, no, we won't be doing that anytime soon. And then next time I went, same thing. I said, how about we do this? Because they seem to want to do anything with me. So Psycho, remake it, you know, don't change anything about it, just the actors. will be different. Copy every shot and they would laugh at me and then good well hunting was came up was coming out and it was the awards was nominated for like ten Academy Awards so all the studios they they they want to get those people sort of signed up to something so that when you if you win they can lean over and say we've got it's next film I think that's the reason they want you just really so they could do that well your your superpower is that the stars want to work with you yeah that's why I was even because that this especially in back going back in time I mean still today to a degree but there are less people who they themselves can open a movie but going back I mean the star had all the power and so the star wants the director now you have the I mean the stars want two things they want a script that makes them look good you know or challenges them or you know it's interesting to understand how much power they have and how much they're willing to you know risk their career certainly some of them are like no I'm not playing anyone who the audience doesn't see as a hero you know and there are other ones who want to go in the opposite direction and be challenged whatever it is they need the script and they need the stockholders when they ask the studio had to say how could you make that decision and you would they would have an hour of course what's like you know because George Clooney wanted just Clooney was okay yeah so but it's a good tribute that they like that they like I was like being set up at different studios and so at the last minute universal called my agent and said they just they want to know if there's a movie that you you can say you would do with them just before you know like in case tomorrow you win and I was and then I said of course universal Casey solar psycho don't change anything you know copy it and the stars will be different but keep it the same and the answer was we think that's brilliant let's make it as opposed to laughing at me every other year and I was like oh shit they really want to do it they say that there's town is full of a bunch of phoneys guys I don't burst my bubble that's not but then the onus is on me because then they said yes and I was like oh shit I have to actually do it and certain people were saying it out that you'll be killed by the critics and I thought well maybe that's okay me that's I can live through that critics don't matter stars matter and and the fact that they like you that's what matters you know the fact that they feel like they're in say pants and you know I mean it's there's a million ways the movie can get fucked up but certainly right from the beginning as a director doesn't know what he's doing and I'm sure with your in I've been on sets with the director who I didn't think was good and it's like every day is kind of a slog because you're fighting against the person who's making the thing and it's just you just kind of know from the beginning it's doomed no you know they they have to you know and especially in the days with women when they didn't feel safe always with the director you know I mean there's some bad stories about you know just sorry the industry was misogynistic until very recently I don't think people dare try what they used to get away with you know they used to call you know in the thirties like George Kukar yeah a gay director was called a woman's director mm-hmm he's yeah he could bring it because I'm a veteran pepper and was like please get me this guy he's not gonna chase me around like you know Louis B. Mayor was you know wasn't Judy Garland even pressed into service for the four o'clock blowjob to the studio heads got I mean that's a real thing yeah no I understand yeah especially yeah mayor oh they were bad but you know we didn't do it we don't have to add so what what is the next project can you give us a hint there isn't what you want to do I have to sort of choose from a bunch of things that are possibilities so there's not really a project right now all right well whatever it is I will look forward to it I wish you great good luck at the Oscars you certainly deserve a victory lap great thank you and I hope everybody sees dead man's wire it's really good cool thank you so much sir thank you for coming by to my crazy place thank you better fight take a picture with me sure okay