Guilt, Self-Worth, and Abandonment Issues

Hello and welcome to It's a Dean thing, the podcast that deeply delves into the fictional character Dean Winchester from Supernatural. Where your hosts are in? Paula. And Susie, we will be going season by season to discuss all aspects of Dean's psychology and relationships and how that changes or stays the same throughout the seasons. Now a disclaimer. First and foremost, we are Dean fans and as such, we will defend him above all others. We are also highly critical of other characters that you may love like St. John and Mary. But we promise to provide an engaging and fun podcast, inviting thoughtful and interesting discussions. So put on your favorite panel, cut a slice of pie, and join us for this fun ride. Hi and welcome to this week's episode of It's a Dean thing. I'm Paula. I'll be this week's host. This week we're talking about Dean, his feelings of guilt, self-worth and abandonment issues and have everyone else say hi. This is Aaron. Hi. Oh, this is Susie. Hello. [laughs] Oh, it's a little different for us this week. This is the first time I've hosted. So like I said, this week we're going to talk about Dean and his feelings of guilt and self-worth. So we're just going to go around and ask everybody, what do you think is at the root of his issues? Aaron. So, what do I think is the root of the root of these issues? Well, I think the big thing is abandonment, I think is the root of his issues, honestly, is feeling like his family left him, his mom dying was the first thing that kicked it off. And Dean, unlike Sam, has memories of the before hunting time. And so for Dean, I think Dean was probably, we don't know at this point, but Dean was probably a very happy child and had a very normal suburban childhood with a mom and a dad at home and a younger brother. And we see in the very first episode, you know, it's like he's very, very close to his dad and he's like, you know, like a daddy and very, just very happy child is what he appears to be. And then it's quickly, quickly he loses that, he loses that sense of security. And so I think once he loses that sense of security and once he feels kind of like, you know, even though, of course, it's not his mom's fault, as far as what we know in season one, it's not his mom's fault, but he still feels abandoned by her, like her death disrupted everything in his life. So then he never got to have a normal life after that. He had to hunt, he was always in fear he was going to die. He had to take care of his younger brother. He had to cook for his younger brother. He had to make sure his younger brother was safe. He had to literally say carry his younger brother out of a house that was burning, which was something Sam didn't even know until when they were adults and he found out, you know, in the first season in the episode home. So I think because of that, because he's had so much placed on his shoulders and because he was the oldest one and because his dad kind of forgot that Dean was a kid too, he just kind of feels like everything is kind of placed on my shoulders. And I have to make sure my younger brother is okay. And if I don't do that, then I failed. And so I think that's what kind of is at the root of it is that I think in Dean's life, Dean's mind, something switched over when he was young and he blamed himself for his mother's death. He blamed himself for everything that goes wrong. Dean blames himself. It's like, it's this feeling of like he has, I think, already the start of PTSD when we meet him in season one. And he's turned that PTSD. A lot of, you know, sometimes when you have PTSD, you blame yourself for everything that has happened. And so I think that's the way Dean thinks is he's just like every issue that happens in the world is my fault. And I need to be able to be the peacekeeper between my brother and my dad. I need to be able to make sure my brother is okay. I need to find my dad when he's missing. I need to save the world. I need to save other lives. My life is not important. My life is not as important as my family's or as the people that we're trying to save. And so I think that's the root of it that his issue is that he had so much placed on his shoulders at way too young of an age. And because of that and because he has turned that into this thing of all I'm good for is being the daddy's good little soldier and being the good older son. And since I'm only worth that, if I fail and any, any way shape or form at that, then I'm not a good person. And I think he feels he has already failed at that so much. Because of the fact that Sam left, I think he feels that as a failure on his part. Because of the fact that Sam and his dad fight, that's a failure on his part. Because of the fact that his dad vanished and they're trying to find his dad in the beginning of the season, that's the failure of his part. So there's so much guilt weighing on him because he has been tasked with something that nobody as a child should have been tasked with. And he's carried that on to adulthood. So if that makes any sense, that's where that's where I think it comes from. Oh yeah, definitely. What do you think, Susie? Yeah, I think that Dean's kind of the guilt and the parcel for it. I fully agree with what Aaron says. I think it does come from with primarily how he was raised after Mary died. Because like Aaron mentioned, when he, in the before, in the before times, he was a very happy child. He seemed to have at least someone of a normal childhood where he got to be a kid and, you know, the king with his mom and be excited to see his dad and do some normal good things. But the night that they lost Mary, he unfortunately with that Dean kind of also lost any kind of opportunity to have sort of like a normal life again, just mainly due to the way that John decided to raise both boys into the hunting lifestyle with his obsession into finding what was it that killed Mary. And it's very sad because like Dean's self-worth throughout like a good chunk of the series and especially throughout kind of this first season is mainly tied to John's like opinion of him because John raised him to be this perfect little soldier who does whatever dad says and listens to whatever he does follows orders carries orders out. He goes after monsters, knows how to hunt is a very good hunter. And to Dean, I feel like his thought process is probably like if I don't, if I'm not good at this or if I don't succeed at this, then I'm not good at anything. And that in itself is just, it's very heartbreaking because other than the him also training as kind of John's like mini hunter soldier, he also is responsible for bringing up his younger brother. And inherently, I'm not familiar with sibling relationships how they are in the wild. I'm going to speak because I am very much an only child, but I feel that in my opinion of sibling relationships is that there is probably some like give and take like yes, you help your sibling out with some things and you're there to guide them to some parts. But for the most part, I don't think siblings are meant to kind of or they're not supposed to be placed in the position where they have to be the parent for their sibling because I think everyone deserves to experience their own childhood in whatever way kind of service them best because sadly something that does happen a lot is that some people or some siblings, they have to grow up too soon so that they can take care of another sibling or as someone else in their family dynamic. And that is very sad because Dean had to be both mom and dad to Sam, he had to like put bandmates on like put bandmates on a go see his shows and and like feed him like the thing that really hurts is that Dean had to learn from a young age what food insecurity was and what food scarcity was and he had to be were like initially it's looking like fine you don't want to eat a thing you don't have to eat a thing it's whatever and then it's learning that oh no we have a limited amount of money and a limited amount of food that we have you and I as children that we have to make last until dad comes back from wherever the crap he went because he just left us here. And I think also I think whenever Dean probably felt that he didn't do his greatest in some aspects of Sam's upbringing he really took that to heart because Dean is a character that when he feels guilt he feels it to his like very core and he carries it with him constantly and because he was never kind of taught like healthy outlets are kind of healthy ways of processing this This, this kind of grief, this guilt, these like abandoned issues and it is like I said, it's probably repeating the slap throughout the whole episode, but it's very heartbreaking because like we've all mentioned before, this is a character that we really love and we see how hard he really tries. We see the hard work he puts into things constantly and like he gives it all and when things kind of don't go his way or when other people or outside forces kind of prove or tell him, hey the voice is in your head, they're right, you're terrible. And you're like no, I've been there, you don't have to be there, we can get past this. Yeah, I think we see that like in the very last episode where John's possessed by Azazel and he's telling him, you never mattered as much as Sammy did, you know, you need the family but they don't need you. And I said it before, I think Dean is a very empathetic character that he more than Sam ever was. He feels things so keenly and internalizes that and that's why you see him lash out a lot. But I think again, you know, as an older sibling, he was forced to grow up a lot faster than Sam was. Sam was, I don't want to say babyed but Dean shielded him from as much as he could of, you know, hunting and the bad things in life. Sam never really understood until much later just how much Dean suffered and Dean shielded him from things. And I agree, I think, I think it definitely stems a lot from losing Mary so early on. A lot of kids of our generation were latchkey kids. So we all kind of have a little bit of that. We had to grow a little bit faster. You know, we were kind of left on our own a little bit or in some cases a lot. If you had a younger sibling, you were responsible for them. Whether it was expressly said or not, you had a responsibility. A lot of times like for me, it was come home, you know, I would have to start making dinner before the rest of the family came home. So a lot of those responsibilities kind of got put on us anyway. So I think that's another reason why we kind of empathize so much with Dean. But for him, it was taken to the extreme because John would leave them on their own for so long days at a time. They would never know if or when or if he was coming back sometimes. I know later on they probably I think they mentioned that there was baby sitters but how long did that last, you know, as soon as Dean was in John's eyes capable, there was no need for that. So he just leave them whenever the other thing I wanted to know was how do you think this affects Dean is a hunter. Well, before I I just wanted to add something really quickly to that. If I can just to that. The last thing with the with the raising the siblings and the all right, the Gen X thing of it all because that's really I think it's true when we were, you know, for Gen X and for some millennials to we were the latchkey kids and for Gen X, we were the for that's why we consider ourselves a forgotten generation because we were kind of forgotten when we were kids. I mean, we would be like we wouldn't you know, sometimes we wouldn't even parents wouldn't even want their kids to be home. They'd be like you go out, you play, you come home when the street lights come on. That was literally what happened. I mean, it would be like, you know, it's so different now and it's hard to comprehend sometimes, but it is like that. I mean, like we drink from the the hose in the backyard is where we got our water from and you did learn we didn't wear helmets and knee pads. No, and we didn't have cell phones and we didn't have computers really. I mean, you did have game systems sort of later on, but it was really a lot of you're using your own imagination. You have to occupy your own time and you also, if you are, I'm an older sibling too and I know, you know, growing up in a single parent household, you that's that's different to it's like you have this added responsibility there. And this is of course, Deans is to an extreme, but you do have that added responsibility that just is inherent of being an older sibling being an older sibling. You have this thing where like for me anyone anyone even if they are in the right anyone harms my sister says anything bad about my sister even if they are actually right about what they're saying. I will defend my sister I will take my sister side and everything everything even if it comes between like my sister and my mom I will take my sister side. This thing I have of I automatically feel protective of her especially because we grew up and it's not that my mom was a bad mom because not at all. But we grew up in a single parent household my sister and I have separate. Dads had separate dads but both of our dads were my sister's dad was never really around and my dad is a whole other story but so but we still were in that single parent thing and so when you have the single parent thing I think it's even heightened more and that's where Dean is Dean is in a single parent household. But it's heightened even more because he's not only is he in the single parent household where he automatically is feeling that responsibility that older brother thing it's also heightened because his dad will leave for weeks days at a time and so it's not just the fact of like you're alone from eight to five kind of thing or from when you come home from school till when your parents come home. It's also an added thing of weeks days you have to make sure the food last like you were talking about Susie but the food insecurity you have to make sure that you know like they are getting home safely. You know you can you can't have fun as a kid because you see that in something wicked this way comes the second Dean goes out and decides I just want to play games I'm going to steer crazy. Sam is fine he's asleep because he's a little kid of course he's not you know he's thinking like a little kid and then we comes back. Sammy almost dies because of that and then John instead of being like comforting to him. Is the exact opposite and so then he's got that that is just instilled in him that if I don't protect Sammy I did something wrong kind of thing so yeah I just wanted to add that just because I do relate about that because being an older sibling so yeah. Yeah I agree with all that I again I was an older sibling to and my sister is deaf so I kind of had that added and you like my most of my family didn't really learn how to communicate with her very well so I was kind of the go between so you know I understand that kind of added level. Of you know I had both my parents when I was younger but I still kind of had that that level of you know I kind of had to be a caretaker for in that respect and it kind of does breed a lot of. Something else I think Dean felt was you know kind of a bit of jealousy or resentments but then feeling guilt over that as well. And then trying to compensate for that by trying to shield you sibling from all the bad things like we could fight like nobody's business you see I'm in dean do that but if anybody else yeah jumped in there oh it forget it it's over you do not do not. Go after my sister or you know so yeah I can I can see a lot of that yeah yeah I'll just I'll just lastly say with that yeah with the fighting thing my sister and I were younger oh my gosh. We got into physical fights to and I'm not saying like physical like abusive I'm just saying physical fights but we were mean and cruel to each other and said horrible things to each other but I remember that would happen sometimes and if I had a friend be like sticking up for me I would instantly be like wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute don't go after my sister. It's almost like our own special personal language between us it's very true it's very so it's so true so yeah yeah well how it affects Dean is a hunter that's just I mean I hate to say that it makes him a great hunter but it does I hate saying that but it does. You're right it does sound terrible but but you're not wrong because because he's so fiercely protective of the people he loves he loves like to his own detriment he loves people so much that it hurts him I think that sometimes and so it's like of course that's going to make him a better hunter because he's going to he he puts himself he is so easy to be he so easily will make himself the best. He easily will make himself the sacrificial lamb kind of thing but what's interesting in season one though is though but if it means like you know with yellow eyes towards the end of the season when Sam and John are just they're all about killing the yellow I demon and for Dean he's like I'm only okay with this if you both are going to be okay if you both aren't going to be okay then then he can live he can live I'm fine with him living if you are both not if you are both not going to be okay. If he dies kind of thing he's like he's a great hunter and he sacrifices and he'll take out the bad guy up to a point and that point is if it's going to harm the people he loves and cherishes and if it's going to harm them that he will let the bad person go or he'll go so far as to like and remember we're just time has season one here because I know what happens in later seasons but when he first kills a human really when he's killing the demon that's attacking Sam in the season one finale. and he shoots him with the cult, and he talks about how scared that made him that he didn't have any hesitation in killing a human being because it was Sam. And so he's like talks about that about how it scares him how much he will do to protect his family. But he doesn't feel that way about himself. So it would be fine if he was about to die, but his family know. So he's a great hunter to a point. I think like he's probably one of the best hunters out there at this time in his age group. We don't know. But at the same time, his fierce devotion and fierce love for people sometimes can get in the way of that. But I actually, but I don't necessarily think that's always a bad thing. That's where his empathy and his compassion come in to an extent. But then there can also be that co-dependence thing that is also very inherent to who Dean is and Sam, but to Dean really in season one. So yeah. This is easy. I do agree with Aaron as terrible as it is to say it does. It does make him like a pretty great hunter because he is just like Dean is a being that has. I think that is a being that has a lot of empathy for others. And but it just it manifests and shows himself in different ways. And when he's a hunter, the way that it kind of manifests in that area of his life is that he just wants to keep everyone as safe as possible and prevent everyone else from getting hurt. We really see this in and this is something that we can see a lot. I feel in in faith because like after he finds out that you know the the preacher's wife has a grumbrieber basically on a leash and is sending him out and he talks to the lady and he tells her please stop. Like people like trust me bad things are going to happen. You just don't do it. And she's like I have to. And just kind of like like that episode to me is kind of one of also one of my favorites of kind of season one which and I think my my fellow host. Absolutely. Because we all have a different reasons why we really like it but one thing that I really like about it is that it's a great example of Dean's face acting and just his facial expressions because they are so good and they tell so much with so little. Like for example when when he has the conversation with Layla after he's cured and she tells him why you and not me and what makes you more deserving than I and there's this look on his face like his face just kind of crumbles. And the intense sadness that he gets in his eyes and I'm just like any any time I watch that scene I go like he has so much down. He's great. Yeah. Oh, he's fabulous. But anyway. He is like his thing is a hunter that he wants to make sure that kind of whoever is in whatever unfortunately happens to be in the way of a big bad he wants to make sure that they get out of it as safe as possible because if he loses someone that just adds to the guilt that he carries and it just makes him kind of one or Carter so that that doesn't happen with anyone else. And he's just he just feels things very deeply and he just cares a lot and I love him of course. Oh, definitely going back to what you're saying about that so faith and his acting that I think that's one of the reasons why season one was as good as it is because it could have that it could have fallen very flat. If you didn't see all of that emotion that Dean has throughout that entire season and even though you don't get a lot of their back story and their childhood except for the very you know very first glimpse you get in the first episode in that glimpse you get in something wicked where you actually see a couple of scenes from their childhood you don't really get a lot. Of information to inform you of what he's going through but you still see it in his facial expressions in his reactions and that's why I really really think he is so empathetic and so much more so than Sam I'm not saying that Sam's completely you know unsubithetic to people but he I think is able to cut cut compartmentalize things and and and lock it away and ignore it. For Dean cannot do that he cannot he feels things so acutely so deeply and he doesn't want other people to go through what his family went through. He doesn't want to see other people get hurt and like you said Aaron it it is one of the things that makes him so good as a hunter but it's also his weak spot where he's just willing to he won't sacrifice anybody else but he'll sacrifice himself. He doesn't care if he survives as long as the people he loves survives as long as the person they're trying to save survives he's expendable in his mind he's not expendable to everybody else you know everybody else is mine but to himself to him he's expendable he doesn't matter which is what makes him such a tragic character because I think things would have gone so much differently if he wasn't the way he is if he didn't care. Neither of them would be as effective as hunters because Sam follows his lead you know whenever just the two of them Dean's obviously in charge so you know and I think I think if he if he wasn't as caring he would be a much colder person much much colder and can't think of the word but he wouldn't be as good at his job. Yeah no I yeah I just want to say I just completely agree with with all of that it makes me very sad but yeah so I guess in season one you're really starting to see the first signs of Dean feeling abandoned and and him dealing with those issues what are your thoughts on this how do you think that ties into his to his self worth well. When you are abandoned in any way and I think Dean was abandoned and I once again I'm not blaming Mary for dying but Dean was abandoned by both of his parents you can be abandoned by a parent even if they're around and John very much abandoned his son and then Sam later he feels Sam abandoned him in all honesty Sam really didn't abandon Dean. I just want to say that I mean I'm not I'm not a fan of Sam's I am very critical Sam but Sam did not abandon Dean Sam wanted to have a life and Sam had every right to have that life and he wasn't saying he can't be my brother anymore kind of thing as far as what we know in season one. But in Dean's mind that's what it felt like because for Dean Dean's whole goal I think honestly a big reason he does a lot of the hunting and the big reason he listens to his dad is I think there's still a scared little boy inside of him and this way inside of him that is hoping against hope that maybe if they keep doing this if they keep hunting then maybe this can somehow be this. Family dynamic that can be like that white picket fence but a little bit different because even though Sam is like once we kill this demon I'm out of here I'm done I'm done I'm going to you know and Dean is very much you know no I'm going to keep you know hunting is his world his life but I think a big reason he does it in the start is because. He wants his family together and this is how his family will stay together is if they keep hunting and so in his mind if hunting ends if hunting comes to an end if they get the yellow I demon and his family decides not to hunt I think in his brain that means everybody's going to leave him again and he's going to be all alone and Dean's biggest fear is being alone that's what Dean is scared of all the time. That's why he went to see Sam when when John disappeared because I think in all honesty Dean was perfectly capable of finding his dad without Sam but because he cannot be alone it's very hard for him to be alone because in his mind if he's alone that means nobody's coming back and it's not logical thinking but this is emotional thinking and when you're abandoned by a parent you do have this innate thing of so. Thing of self worth where you do not think you are worthy of somebody unless you can do something for them to keep them there if you can give them a lot of stuff if you can save them if you can protect them if you can find the demon that they want to kill because. I'll be honest with you I think Dean wants that demon dead but I do not think Dean has the same level of revenge and wanting and bloodlust in a way that Sam and his dad do for this demon because in his mind I think the reason he wants. wants to do this is because he wants to make his dad happy. He wants to make his brother happy. He wants them to be a happy family together. And I think he feels also if they can kill this demon, that'll make John and Sam will be friends and they'll get along and everything will be okay. And so I think for Dean, the way he finds any kind of self worth and I don't think he feels any self worth but the only self worth he feels is when he can provide for other people, when he can save other people, when he can kill demons for other people, when he can be there for his brother, when he can protect his brother, all that kind of stuff. And so when you feel your whole self worth and your whole life is wrapped into just being able to save other people and to help other people and there's no, there's no like using the mask and breathing first when it could, you know, there's, that's Dean's not like that. And so there's no taking care of yourself first so you can take care of other people. Dean doesn't understand that thinking. And so when you think that way, basically what you're saying is, I don't matter, my life doesn't matter. I have no value. I could die tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. In fact, maybe people would be better off if I was dead kind of thing. So I think you see the start of a lot of that kind of thinking in season one, two of, you know, like, what does it matter if I can't, if I don't have my family with me, then I have no value because no one's going to find value in me in the world. My brother is smarter than me. My dad is smarter than me and a better hunter than me. They, you know, my brother is able to stand up for himself with my dad. I can't really do that. All this stuff. So he's like, I am not anything but this brother and the good, and the good older son. And all of that, I think stems from the fact that he's been abandoned by so many people. And as, by all of his family members. And once again, I do, I honestly do not think Sam going to college. I don't think that's necessarily an abandonment thing because he's allowed to go to college, regularly, but I think in Dean's mind very much was this thing of everybody leaves me. And I must have done something wrong to get Sam to leave me, you know, and to get my dad to disappear. So yeah, yeah, Susie. So aside from the initial introduction that we get of Dean as baby Dean, sweet Dean, kind of the first instance, the first kind of moment that we meet adult Dean, he has been abandoned. John, like one of the most infamous lines, most famous lines from the show is, "Dad's been on a hunting trip and he hasn't been back in a few days." And it's something a lot of fans say. It's something that's on fan number, everywhere. And it's very much kind of all encompassing pretty much. And it's a very good succinct way to say, "This is someone that regularly gets left behind by someone who is their parent and is supposed to fulfill a somewhat kind of like stable, dependable role in their life." And for years has failed to do that because the moment that Mary died in this initial, like one of the moments she's gone, Dean loses a, loses a source of warmth, a source of unconditional love, a source of like maternal love and caring. And then it's just him, it's a toddler. It's a toddler. He's a toddler. And with, holding a baby with his dad on this car, just watching his life just turn to ashes, like the life that he knew. And then after that, it's having a dad who, it's having to be kind of with that who did not want to provide or just was so focused on kind of finding revenge that he was, that his thought process was probably like, "Okay, I'm saddled with these two." "Beings, I guess the best thing I can do is try to raise them into hunters so they can hunt with me and help me bring down whatever it is. Did this, like took my wife from me." But what John fails to kind of realize in those instances is that he didn't just lose a wife, his kids lost a mom. And also in the press they let their dad because he's just basically kind of a stranger to them at that point because he's off like doing other things and hunting down stuff. And when he's home, he's not a source of stability. He's not a source of any kind of good or like nurturing parental love. It's just, it's basically here's the here's corporal, the Sam and Dean and there's Captain Colonel John, I don't know the military system, but like, however it's structured, it's that. And kind of Dean's response in the beginning of the series is when he's like, "Oh, dad's been gone for a while and that's, I don't know, he's in Germany, I've been back in a few days." His response, I feel, is a very instinctual like, I don't have anything kind of that I can sort of like fall back on or depend on, I'm going to go with the instinctual need. Because I feel like it would have been very easy probably for Dean to seek out one of his dad's contacts right away or actually meet up with another hunter. I feel like those options really will be able to him, but I feel like in his sort of almost kind of like lizard brain or like in his in his very like core of his being was, yes, I could do all that, but I would rather be and go to someone that I know and someone that I trust will be there for me and help me and understand the situation very well. And Sam does because he also grew up with the same father. He knows and even though I feel like part of Dean was probably like, this is a very bad idea. My brother has built a life for himself in California, I probably shouldn't be coming. He still goes anyway because I feel like part of him at least seeks that sort of kind of sort of familial comfort that he has and that he knows he can, you can depend on because even though Sam gets like is kind of not happy to see him, he still sets out to help him out anyway. He's like, okay, we're going to do this thing and then I'm going to come back because I got real life to live and even though Dean saw that as kind of an abandonment of Sam wanting to go and become a lawyer and leaving that sort of family unit to go steady law, I feel like Sam was very transparent kind of throughout his growing up process of being like, I want to get out of this life. This is not something that I want to do because I see what it's done to dad and I see what it's doing to you. And I feel like more so it, like I have my own fair critique of Sam. He's not one of my favorite. But I feel like him saying, him seeing how it affected his brother who is one of the people that he has known his whole life and has seen him in these parental roles. I feel that he thinks, all right, this is something that has effective negatively. Someone I care about very much. I feel like the best thing I can probably do for myself is to separate myself from that as much as possible. As also probably kind of a survival instinct of like this environment is not healthy, I need to get out. And even though Dean sees it as something negatively, I feel like Sam was always very honest with him about that. And then it kind of adds to Dean's guilt when Sam is like, I'm coming with you. We're going to hunt down dad and all these monsters together. Yeah, because I agree. I think Sam absolutely wasn't entitled to go live his own life. He wasn't viewing it as an abandonment of his family. He just, he literally said, I just wanted to be safe. I just wanted to be normal and have a life. And he's absolutely entitled to that. But Dean just because I think because he lost his mother so early and lost his home and who his father was, I think that caused him to just cling to what was familiar. And at this point in his life, what's familiar is hunting and his family, being as close to him as possible. And I know that Sam had been gone for a couple years at this point. But and I always, I always got the impression that even though Dean and John were not together hunting all the time, that they were still in contact. So at this point when John's missing and not, not in contact with him, he very much reverts to that scared little boy who just wants his dad. And who does he go to first? Well, he doesn't turn to other hunters to help him. He turns to his brother because that's his family. That's it. And it might have also been, you know, his dad's missing. What if his brother goes missing now too? Even though he knows where he's at, if something happens to his brother. So he goes to the first person. You know that that he cares about and kind of drags him back into life I don't know if Dean ever intended on Sam staying with him You know if he intended for him to go back to that life because I think Even though he didn't want his family Separated I still think he wanted them happy and he knew that Sam was happier You know in that life that he built for himself in in California But we do get those glimpses of him you know every time something goes really bad Yeah dad goes missing or they have to go back to Lawrence What's the first thing he does they get to a gas station he calls his dad? You know Dean's dying Sam calls dad, but they don't get any answer You know was he and I'm sure that kind of fed into the well he just doesn't care He doesn't you know I'm not good enough. I think that really feeds into those feelings And you finally see him kind of stand up to John at the very end when you find out that When he finds out that Sam is having this vision he's like that's the first thing you do is call me It's like we tried calling you and you never answered and I think that's the first time you actually see him stand up to John because I think All of his growing up he's trying to he's trying to fill all of those roles He's trying to be the peacemaker between Sam and and John which again, I think is kind of an older sibling thing where you just kind of feel more Responsibility, I think I think there's also a bit of the older sibling kind of always has this I don't want to say we're more mature than younger siblings But I think we kind of get that maturity a little bit faster because Because of those responsibilities that we get so he has a different view of how things are happening than Sam does so he's trying to play peacemaker and it just always backfires on him So again, he's not good enough to keep the peace He's not good enough to keep his family together He's not good enough to keep Sam from leaving. He's not good enough for his father to stay He goes off and does his own thing and doesn't answer and you know just strings them along So how does he fix that? Well, John gives him a word where he follows it period No questions asked just do it because dad said you do it because how else am I going to keep his approval his you know Make him proud Keep him in my life make him love me. I think that was all tie back into To how he feels about himself because if he's not good enough Then why would anybody care about him? are there any other scenes or Things you want to point out that we haven't talked about yet as much as I want to say all of these things are in Dean's head and everybody is very You know values him and I think even in season one you see how Little people value Dean. It's you know, that's the sad part is that This is a character that you want to believe this is all in his head But you see that it's not like there always seems to be Even in this first season surprise when Dean Speaks up for himself surprise when Dean is smart surprise when Dean does something that I don't know goes against any kind of like goes against just following a strict order and I know We may end up getting some hate for this but I want to say and and and I and I loved this character and I and I love I hate that they brought her back to us to kill her seasons down the line but in episode home when you meet the character Missouri who is like a beloved Character in the fandom, okay, but we're watching this from an analytical point of view. She is so mean to Dean I'm sorry, but she is so Unnecessarily mean to Dean and I don't get it because she she it's not like she treats Sam that way She's so kind and sweet and gentle to Sam because Sam lost Jessica and Sam is trying to move on from this grief and this Overwhelming stuff and all this stuff. He's going going on well Dean's going through a lot of crap too and It just is so bizarre to me I and I think that's all writing. I'm saying that's the writing because It's just so Weird to me because I'm like Why are you only picking on Dean? I didn't I didn't get it like call saying that he was a weird looking kid when he was a kid and Everything that Missouri says plays into this self it worth that he has like the fact that you know Dean created Dean designed his own EMF meter and that's a huge deal and She's like amateur and I'm like crazy. This thing himself. I'm just like it just it's it's so funny because I've always thought of this character So beloved and I've loved her and it still is absolutely disgusting that they brought her back just to killer Especially since you know, she's one of the few black women in the whole supernatural universe Still though the way she treats Dean is so And it's the fact that Sam just laughs about it. And people treat Dean like this. This is the way people treat Dean, so that's why it's hard sometimes with this being like, oh, it's all in his head because some of it actually sadly is not in his head. People just kind of treat him like he's less than his brother and that he's not as smart as his brother. He's not as worthy as his brother. He's not as valuable as his brother. Blah blah blah blah blah blah is his brother. And this episode, that episode I think with and those scenes, those interactions with Missouri really, really I think highlight that. If Missouri had been like this with Sam too and it was just like, I'm like, oh, she's just like, they know that they're being too big for their bridges kind of thing or something like that. Maybe that would have been, I wouldn't have had as big of a problem with it, but it's the fact that right out of the gate, she's just like, it's almost like she's just giving Dean the middle finger. It's like I kept expecting something like there was something that happened when he was young and he did something to her, but that's never, I don't know, it just, you're just, and I was so happy when I received DMs from, they want to talk about it. They can't, but when I, that packing that up because I felt like everybody's going to hate me when I say this, but oh my god. Oh no, I think I was the one that sent the first deal. I'm like, is this just me or am I just now noticing this? This is horrible. And like, she's such a loved character and I'm like, why did I, I don't know if it's maybe because it seemed to be kind of played to comedic effect. But yeah, it's, and she was supposed to be the character that Bobby ended up being for them. And I hate to see it, but I'm kind of glad that that character didn't stay if that's the way Dean was going to get treated because later on, you see, Bobby didn't treat him like that. I mean, he was, he was, he was gruff with them. I mean, to, to a certain extent, but he did it to both of them. He did it to both of them. And he was just very gruff. I don't, I don't think that he did it to the same extent over the, I don't know, we have it, we, I haven't gotten far into my rewatch. So I may change my opinion on this, I mean, very much change my opinion. But yeah, I just, I was shocked when I went back and rewatched that episode. I'm like, what's going on and why do we love this character so much? Well, and I still like her. I do want to say though, I do actually still like this character and I actually do wish we had gotten more of her because I think maybe that would have changed. And I so it's hard because we're just going off of this part of her because when you see her later, later when she comes back, she is not like this at all to Dean. There's not even a part of her that's like this when you get in, she comes back in season 13. She's not like that at all. She's sweet. She's loving. She's, she hugs him and is very like compassionate to him and very, very empathetic towards him. And that's, I think that's another reason it threw me so much is I'm like, most recently, I've seen her being incredibly nice. So yeah, yeah. And the Bobby thing will definitely get to that down the road. But there's some lines Bobby says to Dean that are. Oh, absolutely. Truly atrocious. Yeah. I mean, the princess line, the princess line is he deserves to be decked for that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Oh my God. And I love Bobby. And I still love Missouri. It's just I do not understand the writing here of doing that. So anyway, like I also heard with you guys. I thought that was very rude, but the way that I looked at it is. Missouri's kind of behavior towards Dean is something that I kind of see a lot in kind of Hispanic families, especially my own Hispanic family unit where there's ants who are very loving towards the babies of the family or the younger children. And when it comes to the older ones, they're maybe not the nicest people. And it's weird because when you're young, the answer nice to you. And when and when you're older, they kind of stop being as nice. And I think it's kind of a way for them to be to kind of tell you in their own sort of funny way of the world is really messed up and not everyone's going to be kind to you. So here's a reality check. And as when you're receiving this kind of treatment as a child, you don't get that's why they're doing it. And you think, why are you like that? like this. I thought we were cool. And then you, like, you either have a talk with them or you realize, like, oh, no, this is a thing that is just happening, I guess, because you got to be tough, I suppose. But yeah, just like the way that she treated Dane reminded me very much of that is like, oh, we're going to be nice to like the babies and you're beautiful, perfect, you can do it no wrong. And then the older kids, it's like you are a notice. So watch it. And you're like, I don't know what I did. I just came here for a good time and I'm honestly feeling so attacked right now. That's how that kind of a whole situation feels. It's like, hey, you didn't got to give me the anti-treatment. What is this? Yeah. You know, seeing how Sam reacted that though, I mean, that was totally the little brother seeing the older brother getting his trouble and just taking absolute delight in it. Because I mean, yeah. So that didn't feel weird to me at all. But just the way that Missouri treated him, I was like, what did he do? He's, why are you like this to him? It's really weird because it is a complete 180s to how she is with other people that she interacts with versus Dean. And you're like, where did this go from? Yeah, it's everybody. She's different with everybody. It's like, did he break her favorite piece of China or something when he was a kid? What happened? She's holding the grudge. Okay. She's holding a grudge for something. Like, did he spill the family secret for pie? I don't know what happened there. You got your pie in. Yay. Pie reference. Like, what is it? Also a fun little aside. I got the big cascopie for Valentine's. It's delicious. Cascopie's are pretty good. Next chicken pot pie, but I'm going to wait for that one. That one's like a meal meal, but this is like fun dessert. Yeah. So, Susie, were there any other scenes or anything that you wanted to talk about? Kind of mainly how like one line that like also kind of stuck with me is because I find for some reason that I, I think I mentioned also this in the previous episode that I, I've latched onto the second episode of this season. We're so weird. But there is, there is a line in that episode where Dean says something to the effect of, well, our family is just shot to hell. So why not help as many people as we can? And that is kind of basically also like a very good, just kind of thesis over Dean's character of, I'm in this horrible situation. My family's in this horrible situation. We've been beat down time and time again. We just keep like losing. But you know what we're not going to do is let other people lose. And what I'm at least going to try doing is to help out as many people as I can and to kill as many and to get rid of as much evil as I can before I go. Because Dean's, Dean, he mentions it later on that this is not a profession we retire in. Like you can't retire as a hunter. That's not possible. But while I'm here, I feel like it also, the while he's just on like his mission on this earth is, I'm like, I'm stuck in this horrible situation. But what I'm going to try to do is to try to improve things as much as I can so that other people do not have to go through what I have gone through. And that folks and peeps is what makes Dean Winchester a beautiful soul. Agreed. Mike, Mike. I have no, well, the only Mike I have is attached to my headphones. I'm just going to. Yeah, I think it's a testament to Dean's character too because you know, all these horrible things have happened to their family and he could have gone in a totally different direction. They all could have been instead of helping people just really just gone in a completely opposite direction and caused harm instead of helping. One of the one of the scenes that really kind of stood out to me was in something wicked when you know, he'd gone to the arcade just to have a few minutes of normal kid time. I mean, he's what 10 years old in this episode. And when he comes back and sees that Striga attacking Sam and he kind of freezes for a second. So John has to come in and save the day. And that I think was a big factor in kind of shaping some of those so forth issues because we hear it all throughout the series. You know, his job was taking care of Sam. Keep Sam safe. Save, you know, save Sam at one point. You know, we'll get into that later too. I'm sure. But his whole identity basically up to this point has been watch out for your brother. Keep your brother safe. Take care of your brother. In the very first time, it really was important. He failed. And he even said it. John never John didn't look at him the same after that. And it wasn't just that Sam got hurt, but because that happened, you know, John had to take the kids and get them someplace safe and come back. And other people died because of his failure. It wasn't his fault. He was a 10 year old child. It never should have been an applaud on his shoulders to begin with. But you know that's how he internalized it. I screwed up. Sam got hurt. People died. And I think that was another big factor in driving him to not fail and try so hard to save so many other people. Yep. I guess that's it for this episode. My first time hosting. You did a great job. And so I guess we'll close out and then the next episode is Suzy's choice. So as we want to go around and say where we can be found on social media and all that, you can find me on pretty much everything. It's my sandbox and on Twitch at my gamer tag, Artemis 75. It's ARTEMIS-Z75 and Aaron. You can find my main podcast. It's a fandom thing pod where we talk about fandom and pop culture primarily from the female perspective and both Paula and Suzy are frequent guests on that podcast. You can follow us on Twitter at fandom thing pod. No, it's in that one. And then on Instagram, Facebook, threads and TikTok at it's a fandom thing pod. And the other podcast that I co-host is it's a twin-it-to-win-it that I co-host with Jen from My Streaming Bubble. And that drops once a month. So yeah, Suzy. I can be found on Instagram mainly at the underscore crafting underscore cryptid. I post about all my fun little cryptid adventures that I go on and all the silly things I do or have done. And in my bio is my dog Benny's Instagram, Benny underscore Bellasita. And you can go just look at his adorable little fluffy pictures of his little fluffy face because he pushes. So the topic that I have chosen for our next episode is Dean's relationship with John and kind of things of the sorts. So yeah, it's this little we didn't with Chester and his relationship with John Winchester. Awesome. Right. Well, that's it for this episode. So I guess we'll be back in a couple weeks talking about John and Dean. Yeah. All right. Thank you for listening to It's a Dean thing. Make sure to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, threads, Blue Sky and TikTok at It's a Dean Thing pod. And be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five star review. Until next time, remember, Driver picks the music. Shotgun shuts his cake hole.