GSD003 - The Messy Underbelly

Welcome to grad school deconstructed, where hosts Clark and Stephanie hold space for both theoretical and practical discussions about the graduate school experience from a student's perspective. So I was thinking that with grad students more so than undergrad and definitely high school, that you have all these other external life factors that also have to be navigated, that also interplace with scheduling, with timing, with unexpected events coming up. And yeah, that really I think is more specific to graduate students. I think so. I think that people are in different places in their lives. I think that people have to, or generally, have to have some sort of financial support in order to be in grad school often. And so it's juggling a little bit more than a swim practice after high school, or into the musical rehearsal, because our lives don't stop. And the listeners can't see me, but I was nodding vigorously for the first part of what you were saying. And I was shaking my head vigorously in agreement with the fact that our lives don't stop. It's continuous. There is no, even the planned downtime, the planned self-care time often seems to go out the window today, for instance. I had my day planned out. It was go to some appointments, come home, get ready to record the podcast, and then do some work. This is all kind of contingent on my husband keeping his schedule, his work schedule. So when I got home from running my errands and my husband was still home, that was going to potentially interfere with the podcast. And then I asked, can we reschedule or make it just a little later? Can we just kind of push the podcast time? But then with Clark, your schedule just wouldn't allow that because you're so busy and you're working, and you have appointments that don't have any wiggle room as well. Right. We actually thought about not recording today. And we reframe that into an opportunity for us to explore the cluster of what it means to be a grad student, and how we're going to show us kind of in the trenches and kind of raw. And we wanted to go that route. Today is definitely one of those raw episodes that we promised you in the beginning. It kind of manifested. And exactly, Clark and I were discussing it. Should we even record today, are we in a space to do that? And then Clark was like, this is this is grad school life. And I wholeheartedly agree. So this is just kind of messy getting it done, but also representing what I think every single graduate student can relate to. I think scheduling is huge. And I think it has a trickle effect. So I was thinking about what you were saying about our schedules and how if we had to push this forward, that would have adjusted other schedules. And I think that there's sometimes there's not a lot of flexibility or wiggle room, like you said, in our schedules. And that also goes along with self-care. And so I think that what I found now is that I work really hard during the week. And on the weekends, my self-care is, well, I like, I do do work. But I try to, my self-care is intentionally doing nothing. And that's how I organize my time on the weekends. And at first, I felt really guilty. I'm not getting this done. I should be doing self-care approaches, like going to a Pilates class. I'm not taking care of myself. But then I realized that taking care of myself was doing nothing. That's a great point and something that I have also kind of come into as years went by. And unfortunately more so towards the ends of my graduate student experience realized that scheduling in that free time is just as important as scheduling in the imperative tasks you need to perform. It is an imperative task. It's just as important. And you have to make time for that. And at the same time, you lose that often. And it's how do you keep that space sacred and allow yourself to recharge and allow yourself to feel like nothing's necessarily getting accomplished at that moment. But it's okay because what's getting accomplished is healing. Absolutely. And because we, or I should say often grad students are oriented in a way that they are willing to do work. And so not doing work feels bad. Feels so uncomfortable. I fight it. I don't know what to do. This is wrong. Okay, wait. Maybe there's some research. Maybe there's something I can just look up. I can have the TV and I can watch something totally mindless. And then two minutes later, my brain goes to projects or research or everything else. And I still have to bring my mind back. And it's a continual process. It's a struggle. It's a struggle to relax. It's not a strange thing to say. It's true though. And I was reminded of how I'm going to self-disclose that I enjoy a nice hot bath. So when I'm having my self-care time of my hot bath infused with some lavender. That sounds amazing. I will often watch random videos or some mindless YouTube videos or binge watch Downton Abbey currently. And I laughed at myself. I found myself going from Downton Abbey to looking at people's CVs of universities that I may be interested in in the future. And so here I am in my bathtub, 10.30 p.m. and the lights are dim and I'm looking at CVs. I just, I mean, it just, I laughed so hard at myself. It's stuck in there. I couldn't relax. I couldn't, I couldn't shut, shut it off. And so you're right. It is, you do really have to be intentional. And it is a process that's ongoing. And so it's, it's validating for me to hear you say as a student who's more advanced in your program that you still struggle with it. I have a feeling that I'm going to struggle with it for the rest of my life. I think it's something that many grad students will struggle with because it's in their nature. That's why they're grad students to begin with. It's that characteristic. So yeah, it's not hard for me to find motivation to do school work. It's not difficult. I don't have those kind of struggles anymore because I'm doing stuff I love. But the struggle now is getting away from it and having it not cause more anxiety in my life. Exactly. And I feel something that goes along with that is the struggle of relaxation and and allowing yourself to have that time. But also the struggle of let's say family members or friends invite you or ask you to do something on that day that is your self-care day. And you haven't seen them in several weeks. What do you do? Do you hang out with them because you want to see them and you feel bad. You don't want to put them off. But where's your time for yourself and balancing the priorities and learning to say no. And I feel like those are the dirty, messy parts of grad school. Absolutely. And also prioritizing because there might be certain family members or friends that, yeah, you know what, you're okay. It would only be out of a feeling of obligation that you would spend that time, that particular time in that moment with them. But there's others where, you know what, I had my self-care time scheduled, but I feel like it would be even more beneficial for me to spend time with these individuals. And so what a great opportunity. So I think it's kind of being able to differentiate between which suck the self-care from you and which add to it. Surround yourself with non-suckers. I'm laughing hysterically, but it's silent. There's a vampire joke in there somewhere. I think there's a whole lot of jokes in there. But yeah, we want to be around the non-suckers. And it's about also making those choices. And that can be difficult too to cut off relationships or minimize relationships in your life where it's not adding. And I made a decision. I had to make a decision a long time ago. Well, actually, I guess more recent in the last 10 years. But about 10 years ago, I made a decision that I will only invite you into my life if, you know, it's a positive experience. You know, there's people that you can't help but interact with, but I don't have to invite more time and more energy from you into my life. And it took a while because there's that feeling, well, I don't want to kind of one out. I don't want anyone to feel badly. And then somehow that kind of changed into, I don't owe that to people. I don't owe my time and my energy to people. I have so much going on. I have to take in the positive and give that allows me to give more positive back and have more quality with the relationships I have. And I think we feel selfish when we, or we're made to feel selfish when we take time for ourselves or say no. And that's something that I still really struggle with. Just going to be going to be honest. I'm a people pleaser, something I struggle with. And I often will feel guilty in taking care of myself. So putting my needs first feels bad sometimes. And so I'm working through that and putting up boundaries and saying no is okay. And I can say no and still like you and still want to be a part of your life. And these are the, these are the things that I that I struggle with. And again, I think that's a very common factor for graduate students in particular because the people pleasing the wanting to feel accepted and valued and validated by others. I mean, for me, there's definitely a piece of that that motivates me to do good work as a graduate student. And it's not everything. But it's definitely, it's definitely there to a noticeable degree. Maybe like 5% 10% something in there if I had to break it down. But that bleeds over. I mean, it's a characteristic again. So you'll experience it in your personal life and other other facets besides academia. And it's then again differentiating and differentiating as a graduate student because all of a sudden you have so many opportunities to work on so many projects and to work on research with this professor and work with this faculty member on this extra thing. And at a certain point, you have to start saying no or else nothing's going to get done with quality and nothing's going to be meaningful. You're spread too thin. That's exactly it. So you may be producing things, but what is the quality of them and what is the quality of time spent in meetings or attention on tasks or just being with other people? If you're spread too thin, which I often am, then those times with people in a professional or personal setting are kind of, I don't know, kind of, it's detracted from those times. And again, I think going off of your comment before about personal relationships, becoming okay with saying no, becoming okay with not participating in every function or activity available that might look good on your CV. It can feel uncomfortable and then to start to remind yourself why and the choices you're making and make more intentional choices. So then when your student experience comes to an end, you can look back and feel like you did things and not look back and just say, it was a blur and I don't think I got much out of that hole three, four years in my life, five, six years. Right, there it is. Yeah, I think exactly. I think but then how do we, you know, when we're starting grad school, we want to dip our feet into every pool. How do we, you know, how do we narrow down and decide what and prioritize? I think I'm answering my own question. I think number one, it is developmental in the sense of, um, you may not do that. You're very first semester because I do want to be a part of, of different things. I don't know what research is. I know it starts with an R. Remember, um, I, and, you know, so I feel like when I first started, I really did dip into a lot of different areas. Um, and as I've gone through the program, I'm refining my skills refining who I am as a clinician as a student. And so I do think I'm trying to say to our listeners to validate their experiences of, it's okay. If you're, you know, spread to thin right now, and in every corner of your graduate program, I think a commonality. I, there's a little piece of me too that's like, if you're not on the cusp of being spread to thin, you're missing out too. So it's, it is a fine balance. And I think you're absolutely right about those developmental stages as a student, um, coming in that in the very beginning, expose yourself to maybe more things. And you don't have to be fully in, but expose yourself and get some experience. So then as you continue through your program, you can be more selective and focused. I think the scary thing, though, Stephanie, is for people entering grad school and for myself was, I don't know anything. So here I am starting. I don't know anything. But yet, I'm expected to be a part of things and to step forward say, here I am. And so there's this vulnerability for me. In here I am, I'm starting this program. I want to be this thing, this person, but I don't know anything. But here I am. And so because I can't come forward with, I don't know, I know a lot or I have experienced a lot. I felt vulnerable and kind of insecure about that. And I felt that way multiple times in the multiple programs that I've been in and in the programs that I'm currently in every day. I feel like that still part of the process is on one hand getting used to feeling that way. And on the other hand, knowing that the people you're working with, the faculty, the older students, they've been there. There's no way to get to the end without starting in that place. So if that's how you're feeling in the beginning, especially that's exactly how you should be feeling. At least it's, you know, that's appropriate. And to also know, though, that you're supported, you're in a place of learning and growth. And everybody else around you understands that. And they're not going to ask you to do things that you are not ready to do. And at the same time, it's hard to grow if you don't put yourself out there. Absolutely. And if you, the other thing I think about is if you, you know, it's easy for us to say that about this is where you should be and lean into the discomfort. And I guess we can say that because we were at that point. I'm thinking about, you know, this is, I'm not sure when this, when this podcast will be released, but it is the start of around the second semester of school. And we have some new students that are in our program entering the graduate program. And I like to talk with them in their first weeks and talk with them about their experiences. And they said a lot of things like, I feel like I know nothing. I don't know how I'm going to get to the point where you are in one year. I am going to be that 1% that doesn't pass my comprehensive exams. Things like that. And it was so validating for me to remember myself as in that place, but also to say, yes, that's where you should be. And you're going to be there. And, you know, we're here for you. But yes, that's where you should be. And it feels weird and uncomfortable and gross. But there you are. Absolutely. And almost we can almost hopefully reframe it in a way like take comfort. The fact that you're so uncomfortable right now means you're right on track. I mean, I can't, I don't know if there's anybody who started out like who would start out knowing everything. I'm not sure who that would be. Those, those people, you know who you are. And at the same time, if you're not lucky enough to be like the three of those individuals that exist in the world, even though we're going to have so many people call in now and say, no, that's me. I know everything from the start. But no, we're not. But it's, it's true. I would even say people that come in and do know everything. That kind of means they don't know anything. Yes. Yes. You leave your ego at the door and come in. You know, this, that's a great point. I think the more that I've learned, the more that I've learned to become, to stay curious and to stay open and that that's the place where I should be. And, you know, it's interesting. I say that I think that I'm a little more comfortable now with saying, I have no idea. I do not know that. That's a great, I should know this. I don't remember. And owning that and I've become a little bit more comfortable with that where I, where I, as I, in the past, I had, you know, either been defensive about it or pretended that I knew or was mad at myself that I didn't know instead of just accepting where I was. On some levels, I think that's more of the journey. It's not about acquiring all the education in the world because that's never going to happen. It's about knowing yourself and how you relate with the information and whatever program you're in and where you really, where you really excel versus where you know, you need some reinforcement and you need to, you know, spend a little bit more time because it doesn't come as naturally to you in those areas. And also, appreciating that you're an imperfect person and we're all in this together in a lot of ways. And by expecting yourself to know everything all the time, it kind of cheats the whole experience and, and you're going to cheat yourself out of the journey. I think it's also a lot to do with who you're surrounding yourself with. And so if I think we can impart any sort of knowledge or, or, or from our experiences would be to surround yourself with people who challenge you, who allow you to, to be yourselves, but also who you can have these conversations with and say, yeah, I just don't feel like I know a lot. Oh, me either. I know nothing. Oh, that's great. Okay, I feel a little bit better. And so hopefully we can have these discussions with you, our listeners via this, this podcast. We would love to hear from you because I think it is a commonality. I will say though, from some of the varying, not all of my grad school experiences have been in a counseling education area. You know, and I do realize that in different professions, in different areas of study, there may be less understanding by the faculty perhaps. So it's about knowing who you can talk to and knowing who is maybe less accessible in some ways, but maybe a great resource for professional topics. You know, when I was a law student, nobody cared as far as feelings went, but they would definitely be there if you had thoughtful questions about the material. But the classmates were definitely a great resource and a great support in that situation where we could commiserate. And knowing what environments work for you, kind of that kind of just popped to my head too. That was an environment that maybe didn't work for me so well. I didn't realize it at the time because I didn't have anything else to compare it to, but being in this counselor education and supervision field, it's a totally different experience. Right, that's a great point about am I in the right, is this the right fit or is this the right environment or is this for me because there's it's challenging. If you're starting a program, you know, you may innately know within the first class, but how you might also not know if that's related to just developmental issues or fears or anxieties. And so how long did it take you, Stephanie, to kind of realize maybe that environment or program wasn't wasn't for you? It took until years after I was out of it because the circumstances surrounding me not finishing law school were a little different than just a personal choice. There was the medical conditions that got in the way as well, but it prevented me from finishing. And for a long time, I was like, I'm gonna go back. I'm going, you know, as soon as everything's healthy and I'm good, I'm going back to school, I'm doing this. And then along the way, I was using previous degrees I had such as my psychology masters and I got a job doing in-home family work. So I would work with a teenager and their whole family for two and a half to three hours a session, maybe twice a week, doing CPST. So communities, social psychiatric community, psychiatric support treatment, CPST, yes. So I kind of went differently where I stayed at the agency doing this work for two and a half years and they had a high turnover rate. A lot of people, it wasn't, a lot of people just, it didn't work with them, but I loved it and I loved the work. And at the time, it kind of helped guide me to the next graduate program that I selected. So I knew going into it, I felt more confident that I was where I was going to be, but then my experience in the program confirmed it. The faculty, the other students, it really, I knew then. I think I had enough experience at that point to just know that it didn't felt right. So I kind of knew the field going into it and what it really entailed first and that helped. And then the comparison, being able to compare it to past experiences, was how I learned that law school and that whole legal field environment was just not for me. But there was a place for me somewhere else. That's a great, that's a great framing of that though, that although this isn't my home, there is a home for me somewhere and this other home feels better. I think that for myself, even when I was in the program that I thought I was meant to be in, I ebbed and flowed with my confirming if this was right, if this was what I was going to do. And so I do want to just speak to that as far as even though, you know, I told people I was getting my masters and I was back in school and I was going into counseling. There were times and courses in some of my courses and in talking with people where I thought, well, I don't love this about this profession or I don't love this aspect of it. And then I came to learn that there are aspects like that in every profession. So I had to kind of weigh and balance the positives of the profession and those small things that bothered me and I realized that I could handle the small things that bothered me and some of the technical stuff of counseling and some of the note writing and some of the legal and ethical aspects that was boring to me. I could take those on. If that meant I got to do work that I wanted to do with clients. And that breakdown, what you just described is absolutely something that I think is important. When every graduate student is reflecting on themselves and their experiences to say, because there is going to be something you don't like about every job. But is the work that I'm doing doesn't make it worthwhile to do this stuff I don't really want to do. And on top of that, the last thing I would probably add is one of my firm personal beliefs is that everything is flexible. You do not have to commit to a program if you are there a year or a year and a half necessarily if you are miserable. If you really know that it's not for you, there may be options. There might be variations where you don't have to choose a whole different field of study or a whole different program. But maybe you can use some of what you've done so far. Don't resign and say, well, I'm in the program and I started. So I have to see it through if there's that internal knowing that it's not the place for you. It's not your home. We want to advocate for your happiness, listeners. So if we're speaking to something that's resonating with you, we encourage you to give us some feedback, but also to realize it's okay to change things and it's more important for your happiness. I know that sounds kind of prescriptive, but I'm going to say it. Absolutely. Maybe talking about people obtaining happiness is something that needs to be said louder or more often in general in society. So we do want to hear from you and we want to hear about your experiences and maybe if anything we talked about today did resonate with you or did bring something up that you wanted to share. Maybe we missed the mark completely. So I know we have the announcement too, but we want to invite you to call and leave a message for us on the pod talk phone because we are part of the pod talk network. The number is 937-756-5140-937-756-5141-40. And people can also shoot us an email if you'd rather do it that way at the pod talk network at gmail.com. And we would be happy to with your permission to share your experiences on our podcast, or if you'd rather keep it anonymous, that's okay too. Same thing with the phone calls. You can leave a message and say maybe don't share it, but you can talk about the fact that I had this experience if you didn't want it all to be voiced. Yes, and we're very excited because we aim to showcase your experiences in the next podcast. So thank you for bearing with us as we kind of muddled through our podcast today that was kind of impromptu, but not? I think that the theme of this podcast is like messy, messy grad students. Yeah, this is the real. This is what happens behind the closed doors, behind the polished papers, behind the button down shirts. This is what it looks like. And we're still we're still making it. So it's it's something that you can you can get through. You just have to kind of choose a different approach. You have to be flexible. If your meeting has to be pushed back by half an hour and you can make it work, then we'll make it work because that's who we are. So we're grad students. We are. And we we really appreciate you listeners joining us. If you haven't please subscribe to our podcast. If you have feedback for us, please leave it for us. We're very excited about these episodes. And we're going to be having some great guests in the near future. And we can't wait to go from there. Absolutely. Your feedback is incredibly important to us. And we can't wait to bring you more useful podcasts. Well, that's all for the show today. We want to thank you our listeners for subscribing and supporting grad school deconstructed part of the pod talk network. We also want to thank our executive producer, Dr. Marty Jensius, affectionately known as Professor Pod. Music is from audio jungle. Grad school deconstructed can be found in iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Play, and Tune In. If you've enjoyed the show, please leave us feedback there. Questions or do you want your voice heard on the show? Call us at 937-756-5140. You can also email the [email protected] and follow us on Twitter at pod_network. The pod talk network is developing new and innovative shows on teaching, higher education, technology, ethics, and more. Find out more information about each show and their host by visiting thepodtalk.net.