Growth Without Alignment Creates Friction-Sam Shargo Exclusive Interview

Welcome back to the podcast. We are now about 70 countries globally on Spotify. So make sure you follow us on all platforms. Now today we have a special guest. And I really want to make sure you guys follow him. Sam Schargel is a thought leader, entrepreneur, author, architect of conscious business systems. Over two decades, Sam has built and led companies served as a fractional COO and strategic integrator. And advice leadership teams at moments were both identity and responsibility collide. So hey, welcome. Glad to be here. I'm excited. We want to get to know you. And we've interviewed many CEOs from around the world, Sam. Can you just go ahead and tell us a little bit about your background and where everything began? Yeah, sure. So I'm a strategist and a techie at heart. And I'd like to say that I'm a recovering New Yorker. I think the Burbs of New Jersey. These days, I spend my time facilitating peer groups for owners in the process of building a community for entrepreneurs who want to grow without it costing them their life. And I invite the handful of small business owners. Before that, I built one company from scratch. I took another one over from its founder and grew to an exit earlier this year. And I spent years as a COO and fractional executive inside fast growing tech companies. I built my own very intentionally so that it wouldn't depend on me. Right. This stretch of years where I really couldn't be there. And that's when I found out what I built wasn't just an asset. It was the freedom to be where I needed to be when life demanded it. I wrote a book about that. And now I focus on helping owners get their own purpose instead of being the most overworked and underpaid employee in their own business. And that's exactly right. I think there is a time where eventually you do have to pull out of your business and hire the right people to get into that position, right? And you just kind of oversee everything. Sure, yes, absolutely. That's awesome. And I know that we did speak a little bit on our pre-call but how did you get into the career you are now, like fully integrated? Yeah, so it was a lot of different things that happened over the course of my entrepreneur journey. I'd love to give you some kind of lightning bolt moment when it all started, but frankly, there wasn't one. There was just this 13 year old kid with a backpack and a computer repair toolkit in his backpack. We noticed people would pay him to fix something that they couldn't fix themselves. Yeah. He's just something that happened to be in front of me and I was pretty good with computers as a kid. I think there's a lot of things that happened and it was little to do with a particular industry. For me was realizing that a lot of times businesses built around the founder and the owner. Yeah, that's true. And the ones that really last and are actually sustainable are the ones that you built the other way, right? Where you build a business to exist outside of the founder being the operator. So that's what I tried to do and everything that I've been doing has evolved around that. Well, I mean, it's been a long time that you've been gaining that experience. A lot of people get out of high school or at college, sorry, and they're just kind of like, I don't even know where to start, but you already knew since you were younger, what you wanted to do. In a way, like I said, it was just something that I sort of fell into because-- Okay, yeah, like a moment, yeah. And I was really just looking for ways to help provide for my family when we were going through some hard, hard times. When I was a kid, I came from an immigrant household so I didn't have any money connections. My parents didn't speak English. I was just looking for ways to support my family at that time and have to find my own way of doing it. You literally took that leadership role. You know, you kind of started from the beginning from 'cause you were little. And that's awesome. I think the best CEOs and entrepreneurs start young. You know, and people just think that it's something that you kind of fall into when you're in your 30s, but a lot of people started playing the game since they were little, kind of like yourself. - Yeah, that's right, yeah. - Yeah, and I think that's awesome. Can you just tell us a little bit about, you know, I know we have your LinkedIn. What's something else out of your LinkedIn that kind of inspired you to get into this role? - Well, you know, there was a time when I, I was a very technical, technical kid and I was a technical guru that everybody turned to whenever they had technical questions. But there was a certain pivot in my career trajectory when I took a role as a CLO for really fast-growing IT services firm. And I was surely the first time that I stepped into this really executive leadership position with a lot of people and department heads, division heads under me. And I had to really redefine my own identity in a sense of, you know, what kind of leader do I want to be and how do I want to show up? - Exactly. And what kind of leader do you think you are in a sense of like what, in three words, can you explain that to us? - I think that the leader that I'm aiming to be and the leader I choose to be every day that I show up is one that is people-centric and that leads with empathy and a people-first mentality. I really believe that people are what make or break great companies. And that learning that has happened over the years has really transferred a lot of other areas of life as well. I'm a single dad, I have two very young little girls that I'm raising. And so those leadership skills are really transferable. - Right, no it's true. I mean, it all applies to your regular life. It's not just for incorporated. It all applies to your day-to-day life. What's it believe about leadership you held for years and then like abandoned? - Yeah, so it was really that I had to get out of my own way and I had to learn to put my ego aside and recognize that to build a really great company. Especially one that doesn't depend on me. I have to hire really great talented people at the right time for the right roles and with the right structure in place to make sure that they're successful and really learn to get out of my own way. I think a lot of small business owners and founders they struggle with that, right? Especially in service-based businesses when they may have started out as a consultant of some sort where they're the ones delivering all the services. So as years go by, a lot of their identity gets wrapped up with a business being attached to who they are as an individual and that's a really big challenge, right? And that shows up in different ways when it comes to making hard decisions in the business, right, they tend to get really emotional. It's hard to be objective when your identity's wrapped up in it. And similarly when you get a company to a point of exit, there's a tremendous value for acquires and companies that are buying other businesses when they're buying a business that is not dependent on the founder being the core operator and glue that holds everything together. - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you write a lot of that becomes that person. They become the business instead of having the business and then they go home and then go back to the regular lives. It's hard at first. - Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot of things that are wrapped up around identity and fear and figuring out the things that you have to be willing to give up. You know, once I stopped treating as the business is me, everything started changing, right? It was a complete and total perspective change and it changed how I showed up to my team and it changed how I lead and how I make business decisions. - That's right and it takes work, but that's why I think you already kind of learned that as you experienced everything you went through since you were young. So what was the most surprising success you've had in business so far Sam? - Oh man, the most surprising success that I've had in business. You know, I was building two companies at the same time. - Oh yeah. - One of them was this IT services firm that I recently exited and in that business it was very intentional like from day one when I took over CEO to build it with the right people and systems and structure, right? The other business, which was a fractional services firm was completely dependent on me. And I was running both tracks and parallel. - Oh. - And I made good money doing it, right? - Yeah. - There was a lot of success along the way, but there was this stretch of my life when things really started falling apart from your family level. And it wasn't until then that I really realized the value of a business that's not dependent on me because it wasn't just a great asset that I was building and creating, but it also gave me the freedom to show up for my family when they needed me the most. And that is truly priceless. - Yeah, your time, I think that's the best thing that you can get once you can get out of it, but there's systems, correct? Like there's systems you have to learn in order for you to unplug. - Yeah. And it's definitely a learning curve, right? And everyone finds their own path of going down it. - Yeah, I look at it as there's three C's that all entrepreneurs and leaders really need to be successful. And that's coaching, content and community. And I can't tell you enough about how much I gained and benefited from having the right group of peers supporting me along the way, especially when I really needed that support on a personal level, not just business. But you know the it's people that care about your success they're invested in seeing you do really well and care About you personally as a as a human being Yes, any people that can sit around sit around a room. You know once a quarter once a month and give you an honest Unbiased perspective of what they're seeing me. Yeah, sometimes it's things. You're not willing to admit to yourself Yes, it's hard sometimes to look in the mirror and say I messed up where I need to work on this. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, most people are are too uncomfortable to really look at themselves in the mirror and and see the truth right see The good and out in the ugly and being willing to do something about it I can agree a thousand percent. I think that at the end of the day You need to hang out with people that are a little bit better than you at the skills that you want to gain so they can tell you I tried that try this you know or maybe you should do this because they already been through that they've already been through the hard times Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and the right fit is is really important You know, there's there's so many different masterminds pure group organizations out there I've been I've been part of many myself as a member. Okay, some of them, you know They will group people out of together based on industry. Okay, and I think there's value to that especially for the early entrepreneurs That are starting in a certain space trying to figure out, you know, what does good look like in my vertical and my Industry focus right those need your periods are tremendously valuable for that eventually though you get past that stage, right? And you're looking for ways to innovate or seat problems differently Right, industry period groups. They've actually become this echo chamber We're everybody going out with the same problems same challenges and and frankly the same solutions are being put out there Yeah, right and then there's groups that will group people together based on revenue and truth is that not all You know two three or five million dollar companies are the same even when their size is is about similar Exactly. We're all on different growth trajectories. There's a different exit timeline and pathway for the founder There's different economics operational maturity There's all these different factors that come into play and in community organizations The members make or break the success of that community exactly like everybody kind of has to help each other grow And not just kind of hey, I want you to like me kind of thing Yeah, yeah, absolutely You know, I love that we're touching base on all of this Sam and I'm going to go to the next question So you know most owners think culture is about values on you know on a wall what actually determines it? It's the reason why people show up to work every day And it has to be beyond the paycheck Yeah, I mean there are some companies especially in larger, you know, corporate structures where that's okay Right people are just showing up to work to get their paycheck and go home Right In an entrepreneurial organization, especially small business People need to be there for a reason bigger than themselves Exactly Even in the mission vision of the organization of what they're doing they have to understand How they fit into the the big picture right and understand the roles and Responsibilities that they carry how they drive the outcomes and impact that that business has exactly I think a lot of people like I said guys We understand money is necessary you need money to make money and you need you need to feed your family But it's not the core principle you do need to care about your customers at the end the customer brings in that money and your team manages Everton that keeps going That's right. I know that you talked about teams um can you tell us about your hiring process like what do you look for when hiring teams? That's a very question and probably one of the most hot to everyone's that Especially because you know in in my in my business and the tech space I was hiring people from all over the world It's so we were initially geographically centered in New York City And then we ended up building out nationally and I did that by hiring really amazing talent Well, right like the Philippines and Asia and Eastern Europe Um, and so my hiring process is somewhat somewhat unique a little bit of a secret sauce there I look all your secrets And I'm happy to share it There's really five five different lines that that I look at a candidate Emotional intelligence yes Now how self-aware are they emotional intelligence drives a lot of the success long-term success of someone's job role The other is personality fit every position has a distinctly different personality profile Diet are they more introvert or they more extrovert or they more detail and work well within rigorous structures where can they be more flexible? Then you have the IQ component their cognitive aptitude you have cultural fit right are they gonna Values of that business and team right the last one is is hard skills. I'm big believe that hard skills can be trained Uh for any job if it's the right person then they need some of these other factors in criteria one thing that I particularly look for in an interview and and usually when I interview candidates It's about a 30-minute initial conversation. I spent about 15 minutes asking them some questions And then I reserve the the other 15 minutes to see what questions are they gonna ask me? Exactly, and that shows me how they think it shows me what the things they're curious about It shows me how they're willing to to challenge things right a lot of times that if I candidate you know Has done some preliminary research and knows a little bit about you know who the Who they're meeting with that that's interviewing them knows a little bit about their backs or maybe ask some good questions about you know Hey, tell me about your you know career or how you got to this that a senior role in the in the business or You know what kind of impact have you guys had on customers? What's been the biggest struggles and challenges in your business A candidate that that shows up to an interview and asks that is a really really good indicator that this is someone that's That's self-aware that that is emotionally intelligent and wants to make sure that this is a good fit for them As much as it is for the for business. Yeah, it's it's a relationship for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's true I think that there's just so many times where even I've been on the other end where it just doesn't fit Even if it's a high salary, you're like oh my god I'm gonna make so much money, but am I gonna like it like am I gonna show up every day? And do it over and over and improve sometimes. It's not even worth the salary Yeah, that's right. You know, especially today like you know after Covid Yeah, but a lot more value on job opportunities beyond just the money you can put it right like exactly You need 20 30% more but you got to be in person every single day where we're working with the toxic manager We're really into people deemed that's gonna burn you out. It's just not sustainable All right, I think people have Woken up on the job market now and and they put a lot more value on some of the insangibles, right? Exactly like the bull is the work environment, right? And am I gonna be punished if I have to you know, leave or leave early and go take my kid out of school or something like that A lot of people have families. They need to take care of their families first at the end of the day Uh, anybody else. I think that's why you have to cross also cross string people in case one's out the other one can take over Um, you know kind of going to the next question now. What are you building now and who is it for? Sam yeah, so we I have a couple of different things that I've created created the proper strategic alignment method which is a business management framework that looks at six different domains of a business truck linement between people systems and strategy I've got scale-ride partners, which is a consulting and advisory firm where I'm working with small business owners Implement the right structure so that their business is less dependent on them and can scale sustainably And we've got scale-ride collective which is a community that I'm creating For business owners that really want to build a better business in a conscious way It's around by like-minded people who believe in the same things together to support one another That's awesome, and I love that you're putting people that are alike together I think that's the hard part about getting out of corporate and going into entrepreneurship Absolutely. Yeah, you got to find people that believe the same same things that you believe in and are willing to also challenge you as well and Think differently. Yeah. I think in the last couple of years I've been meeting a lot of people from all over the world like you know You've been hiring from people from all over the world. I think it's important Sam. We need more culture Spaces I think once you get to the higher up can I see the same type of people? I'm like, where's everybody at? You know, I like to see culture like a mix of so many people Yeah, you know diversity is is really important right and I was very blessed with with my business We hire people from all over the world So it was it was a very interesting mix right of personalities and cultural backgrounds and we found a way to to work really well together And I'm happy to hear that there's just so much that our audience is going to learn from you with this podcast And I kind of want to add more to this now What is kind of like what you're doing in the next quarter? Do you guys have any events happening? What are you guys doing? Yeah, so I am planning on putting together an event in New Jersey We actually she's just did one out of Newport, California. So okay That I brought a bunch of entrepreneurs together at a really cool venue And we talked about the one thing that they need to take off their plate as a as a business owner to really shift from being the owner operator to being a Right, so doing a similar event like that locally here in New Jersey in the next month or so Now so we'll be doing more more things like that But the goal right now for me is really finding these like-minded business owners and entrepreneurs and put them together into a community format As well as you mentioned working with certain small business owners on a strategic advisor to help them implement the right Systems and structure or I bet you're gonna see a lot because there's a lot of people starting companies too That are startups that are already probably already doing a vertical and there's a stabilized business There's just gonna be a lot happening. I think this upcoming year when it comes to just growth in business And I was gonna ask to what I don't you have a book, right? Where can we find your book? Yeah, so my books available on Barnes and Nobles as well as Amazon. Yeah, I'm gonna definitely gonna check it out I always try to throw that in because I know a lot of my guests have books that are ready out and people can read guys Make sure you guys follow that link once this releases now. I kind of wanted to shift a little bit on our conversation Where do you see yourself in a year from now as far as growth your personal growth? It's personal growth. It's really going back to the the community and building the right network of people for this next chapter of my life Right as a single as a single father to two very young young kids. I think having the right support system of places is really important and So I want to connect with with people that are Business owners that are entrepreneurs or people aspiring to start their own business, right? So so we think support one another throughout this throughout this journey Multi-working at some potential investments as well and in terms of acquiring some some businesses. So got a lot of got a lot of irons and fire Yeah, yeah, definitely and I think that that's exactly what you guys do like you help people grow You know when someone has a business. What is the main thing? They should be focusing on when it comes to girls. Do you think it's more hiring? Implementing more systems. What do you think it just depends right? It truly depends. Yeah, and and this is part of where my methodology kind of came from right so as I was working with entrepreneurs as a fractional executive and factual COO I realized that a lot of a lot of the approaches that that are taken in management consulting It will look at the you know one area of the business They don't really map it to see how it affects these others And so the profit strategic alignment method is the framework that I created and it focuses on creating alignment across six domains Okay, revenue operations finance innovation and technology What I often find interesting is that sometimes Sometimes the revenue problem is actually an operations problem That's I mean operations problem as a people problem, right? And so understanding how the the different Aspects of the business effect other domains is is really key and it's never just about one thing It's about creating cohesion alignment at the same stages of maturity to to drive that sustainability long-term And that's exactly right. I think a lot of owners don't want to grow They're like I just want to make like 800,000 maybe a million. I don't want to grow But there's there have to eventually grow you can't really stay somewhere and stuff forever Yeah, and you know, there's nothing wrong with that right there are certainly businesses where it's kind of designed Intentionally to revolve around the founder, you know being the primary person. No, maybe it's an accounting office or a dental Those those businesses are kind of meant to just provide a job for the for the owner Long-term, but if if an entrepreneur wants to really create something that's that's going to scale beyond themselves And maybe leave behind a legacy or create generational valve Exactly has to be intentionally architected so that it's not going to depend on them And you really have to do that from day one So I would say for your listeners out there that are thinking about starting a business That's the biggest question to ask yourself like are you trying to just create a job for yourself? Right that baby will pay you well or are you looking to create a business that is really going to give you freedom? Exactly at the end of the day That's what we want to aim for something that we can automate at some point and then get people ready to take over What your role is and your role is to just lead the company. Yeah, that's right And sometimes, you know different entrepreneurs, you know, they bring a different value to the business Right, sometimes it's those key client relationships Sometimes it's the technology and innovation, right the thinking outside the box and creating something really unique and special Sometimes it's more of the you know financial strategy. How do we get funding? How do we go down a position track? And so knowing yourself, right knowing What your super power is as a business owner is really important, right? Is the more you can focus on that area the more successful you'll end up being exactly and I think this is a great conversation You know, I think so many people focus on doing everything themselves That's how I was at the beginning, but you have to learn to train other people to replicate what you do. Yeah, absolutely You know, it's it's it's interesting. I've worked with so many owners and founders over the years And what I find is that, especially in small business, yeah, the owners often have a lot of this, you know, their own identity wrapped up With the business and they're so so it's hatched to it and it affects so many different areas, right? It affects their decision-making affects their stress levels right also even affects valuations when when you go to exit the business potentially because Truth is buyers want a business that's not dependent on the on the original owner, right? There's you have to go Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know, let's talk a little bit about the exit part I think that's the most interesting to me. How can when you know it's time to exit when you already feel fulfilled? Well, you know, it's it's different for everyone, right? Some people I first of all, I think that entrepreneurs are not the type of people that are ever going to be satisfied with this traditional idea of retirement Exactly. It's like yeah, you could you could have as many eggs as you want But if you're if you're really wired to entrepreneurship, you'll be working for as long as you're able to work Exactly, and so in terms of the right time for an exit It it's different for different people, right? Sometimes it's it's aging owners right now There's a lot of baby boomers that are aging out of running a business and some cases oftentimes actually they don't have a family member Like like a like a child to pass the business down and so they need to think about okay How can I exit in the way that's gonna allow me to retain some of the wealth that I've created for some people the exit was was always kind of the The end goal right especially a lot of startups now the thing and all you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna work on this for next five ten years and The million dollar exit and move on something else, so it really it really depends, right? But I don't think there's there's a right or wrong way what I do know is that regardless of what the exit plan is and what that Way looks like for people the business cannot revolve around the owner as the core operator exactly There's got to be already a system that's been in place where they're like this is how we did it This is all the instructions if I'm gonna sell it. It's easy just to transfer that over Yeah, because truth truthfully, you know, I ran an event in in California several weeks back and you know We we had this open dialogue founders roundtable discussion around why people started A business in the first place right why do they either become an entrepreneur right and there's a lot of different reasons, right? Like it's oh, you know, I was tired of working for somebody else or You know, I was burnt out in the corporate job where I feel like I could have done it better than the company I was working for Common thread is always around freedom Yeah, this the whole point of having your own business It's to have freedom to to do the things that you want to do with the people you want to do with them when you want to do it being more of your own your own life and legacy and finances to of course But that is never the but as should never be the main purpose Exactly to start that that's let's put a little highlight on that No, but that that is true I think a lot of people get lost in the sense of I want to build this mammoth of a business and hopefully I sell it for millions of dollars And sometimes you don't really build the pipelines correctly And then you don't build something of substance where you can eat somebody can take over like a brand They can rebrand it. Sometimes it doesn't work, right? Yeah, that's right. You know, I I was building a business intentionally To not depend on me and then during this stretch of Four years of my life when my personal family life started falling apart. Yeah, it was only then that I really understood Recognized the value of having a business that doesn't depend on my wife of time got diagnosed for stage 4 cancer and It was it was a very difficult time for our family. I couldn't be there for my business. I couldn't be their day-to-day Yeah, it was it was so just breathtaking right when I were like calling to my team like guys Do you need anything like anything waiting on me? Do you need my input? Porteeville coming in you can't answer sometimes, but my team said hey Sam like we got it. We have what you need and you can go take care of Your family like that was huge right it was it was so much more than just an asset with evaluation attached to it Exactly, I think at the end Sam you said it correctly We want to build a business so we can have time their family we can have time to get back our time and then focus on our health Focus on what we really want to do and your team helps people how how can we reach you guys and my listeners want to reach out to you? Yeah, so scale-right partners is the strategic advisory services that we offer small businesses scale-right collective is the community that we're launching in this next quarter and Sam shardy.com is where where you can find all those different resources as well as by recent book deliberated. - And we'll make sure we link that. I think Sam, you are the example of what it is to be a leader. I think I've spoken to many people and I see a lot of bosses, but not leaderships. I think there's a difference between a boss and a leader. What would you tell your younger self, your 22 year old self? What advice would you give yourself if you could? - My 22 year old self was going really fast through life in a super accelerated timeline. I was married at a house, I was working really hard on my business. - You're grinding. - I was grinding it. I mean, I was totally hustling. I've always had that right since I was a kid. I would younger self slow down and slow down fast because these years of your life, although you shouldn't stop doing the things you're doing slow down enough to really take it in and appreciate it because they will come in time in your life when you're really going to miss it. - Exactly. I think that we're all going fast, Sam. I think even after 20, we still don't slow down. But it's important, you've been through a lot since you were little, like you grew so much and I think you know more than somebody that's already double your age. I've seen that a lot more often, a lot of young people have so much experience as they were young. - You know, I say that in terms of legacy, we live our life like we're never going to die. And we're dying, we realize we never actually live. - I love that book. I love the way that is. It's true until we don't know, we don't know when we're going to die in reality. - We don't know what our expiration date is, right? - Exactly. But we should all, like you said, kind of slow down, even if we're in our 30s, 40s, it just enjoy life, I think. - Yeah, absolutely. You got to enjoy life. And I think business is an incredible instrument to be able to do that. And not just enjoy life yourself, but really create opportunity and generate value for others. - Yes. I think building other people to become successful is at the end, that's the goal. I always was told when I was growing up was I'm Mexican immigrant too. But that's like, you're going to build that, or you're going to plant that tree, it's not going to be for you to enjoy it. It's going to be for your great grandchildren. It's going to be for your children, if I ever have any. But I never thought of that until now. It's like whatever we're building, it's going to be for other people to kind of like continue. - Yeah, 100%. And the type of leader that you are and how you show up has this like really interesting, residual and ripple effect, right? It's how you show up as leader affects your customer and affects how your customer might deal with their team and their employees and their clients, right? It shows up and transfers over to your family life. You know, as a single father, you know, I could say that it's really important how I show up as a leader in my own household. - Exactly. - Not just about business. - Yeah, your children depend on it. You know, they are going to go into another world. We don't know what's going to happen in the next 10, 20 years. I see it now and I'm like, whoa, like where are the Gen Z years going to deal with? You know, what types of problems are they going to deal with that in business? So they're going to have to kind of have character for that. - It's hard to fathom, you know, the whole AI things happening all fast right now and get a nine year old and a five year old. I'm always thinking, oh my God, like, what's the future going to hold for them? But I will say that I'm probably on the more positive. - Yeah, spectrum. - I think that AI creates a really unique opportunity we've never had before as a society and that's to bring forth more human ingenuity in the work that we do. - Exactly. It's just a tool at the end of the day, but we're going to have to take care of that tool because we don't want it to learn things that it shouldn't. I think that's where they're trying to kind of control it right now. - Yeah, I think it's a really interesting, like, ethical conversation to be had nowadays. Like, what are the boundaries between what allow technology to do for us versus things that we will continue to do and bring forth as people and as contributing members of society? - Yeah, at the end society depends on leaders. We need more leaders, I think, more than ever. And understand that AI is going to, is already here. It's already taken over, but we just have to be there to be leaders for it and show people how to use it. I think that's the main thing. I think a lot of the boomers are like, I don't even want to know about that, but I tell them eventually you might have to learn it. - Yeah, and it's not just more leaders, I would say. It's also a different type of leadership that we need. - Right. - I think that there's a lot of these management concepts that are a little outdated, right? They were designed for the industrial era, right? And people that are in the workforce and entry the workforce are now. They're expecting a different kind of leadership, right? They're expecting something that's more people-centric, right? - Yeah. - A little bit more progressive, maybe. You know, in my own business. - Absolutely. - Yeah, I mean, in my own business, you know, we had obviously different TPI's and goals that we would set for our team members, but everybody had a very flexible schedule. And I've been unlimited time off. And I didn't care that I'm hiring someone in the other end of the world to do things that are really mission critical for our business. - So some of those more progressive policy, I think go a long way. Do you have to be conscious and mindful about it? How you put that type of stuff in your business? But I think that's what, that's the workforce nowadays is looking for, right? There's not, there's much more value being assigned by candidates on the job market to some of these intangible elements. - Yeah, and I think a lot of people want that space. They want to be able to have work from home options when they can be with the children. They already know what to do. You don't have to tell them what to do. It's a simple step. Hey, the emails are there, the list is there. And they just want someone to check on them every now and then. Just like, hey, are you alive? Do you need anything? - I really believe that if you give people clear expectations of what they're working towards and for, they will prize you with their ingenuity and their performance. - Exactly. 'Cause they like it. They're just like, hey boss, I already know what to do. I'll have it done by this week. That's it. - That setting the right vision and culture is really critical in organizations today. And it's not about just having a bunch of poor values up in your wall and gold lettering in the office. - Exactly. - Deep on tables or beer on Fridays. There's so much more to that. And I had a first-hand experience with that, having a very diverse culturally diverse team around the world. - And I have a lot to learn from you. I've gone through several virtual assistants, but I think it's a hiring problem that I need to kind of work on. Sometimes it's the pay. You have to pay people a little bit more for you to get that better quality of work, but I give people chances no matter what. Even if they're like, this is my first time doing it, but I wanna try it, I give people chances. And I think being fair as a leader, that's important. - 100%. And sometimes, you know, the hiring process might be right. And sometimes it's more about the structure within the business itself that needn't use not supportive enough for that role. - More higher, you know, this has happened to me certainly in the past. I have a really great candidate, right? It sounds good. Heels right, they've got the right background. Right, they're super high IQ, right? Everything's right. And then 30 days later, 45 years later, they're like, oh, this is really not working. - Yeah. - I mean, we're really digging into it. It's very easy to blame people. And still, you know, - Yeah, boy fingers. - Yeah. - Exactly. It's very easy to do that. It's much harder to look internally and say, what did I as a leader not give them to be able to be successful? What does our business not have in place to be supportive for them to be successful? And that's a much harder conversation to have. - Yeah, no, it's true. We have to look within, you know, they don't know. And then you don't tell them, obviously it's not gonna work. Communication all the time is key. I like direct people, Sam. I love people that are like, this is what it is. And I'm like, okay, perfect. Like, there's no ends and buts. I'm not, you know, figuring out what they want. But I think this is an important conversation to have. - Yeah, most definitely. And clearly communicating those expectations is really key, right? Nobody wants to be blindsided. And, you know, you might paint this whole big, beautiful picture of what's going on on the business and the person comes in and they're like, oh my God, this place is a mess. - Exactly, that's what they're hiring up. - And out, you know, I always tell the owners that I work with. Listen, be upfront about the mess that you have going on, right? 'Cause maybe you want that to hire that person just don't want to take this chaos and create some more clarity and create some more structure and systems behind it. Some people are wired for that, right? They fly that and others will freak out, right? They're like, no, just give me the checklist and SOP of what I need to do. I don't-- - Yeah, and that's it. (laughing) - But it's true, yeah, you're right. Some people will figure it out and they'll do it fast. And some people will just, it's not going to work, I don't really like it. And they're just going to do it later. - Yeah, that's why being upfront with candidates is really important. Sam, this was an amazing conversation. We're going to go ahead and close out the podcast. We'll follow on five heart radios, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, and all the platforms on there as well. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)