Growing Up With Addiction Left a Trauma Your Body Still Carries

What happens when a child has to become an adult? When they have to learn to read the mood, when they have to learn how to read the room, when they become the one man and gene, others' emotions, and no one is helping them with theirs. That child grows up, they're brain adapts, their body adapts, and they, or we, carry those patterns into every relationship, every job, even every quiet moment with ourselves. So let's first of all, bring up Dr. Tiondatin and make sure that she's spotlight as well. I am so honored to welcome back someone who has shaped my own healing journey and work, Dr. Tiondatin. We are talking about growing up with addiction. And before you think this doesn't apply to you, consider this. Yes, Tiond grew up with out of alcoholism in her family. And yet in my home, there was never even a single bottle or a single substance in my childhood home ever. So why would Tiond's work and writings have been so helpful in my own healing journey and in my work? Because it's more about the family dynamics, the unpredictability, the extremes, the rhythms of connection, but then disconnection, and how our brains and bodies adapt to try to figure out what are these unspoken rules and what is my role in that. So I'm so excited and honored to have you, Tiond. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your time. And as always, thank you for your work. I'm equally excited to be with you, Amy, and I've been preparing also it because I respect you and I love what you do and I love what we do together. I've got a question for you. Chaos, growing up in chaos. What does that actually look like? Because there are many people who would not look back on their child and be like, yeah, that was chaos. So what does it actually look like to say that would have been a chaotic family, dynamic or household? I think it looks like not being able to handle conflict well. It looks like not being able to handle extreme situations well so that while things are going to lie smoothly, the family is not especially chaotic. I mean, my family, we were very well organized. We had help cooking and that helped and cleaning. So we had a lot of order in the home. We had a lot of laughter. We had a lot of togetherness and was togetherness. And when something went wrong, something that a more regulated system might manage in this ring and then restore back into here somewhere, we went here and we would restore back into there somewhere. You know, there would have to be a period of disconnection. And no one would certain know what happened, no one would sort of know how to find each other again. We each had our own tactic, our own strategy, power struggles, power dynamics entered at that point. They were always sort of vibrating around the edges. But so what that the chaos could great loose when there was conflict. And once once that happened, then maybe some rage could happen, then maybe some dish could get thrown, then maybe some items I never this maybe some tears, maybe some dorsel amhing that kind of thing. It wasn't that it was constant chronic. It was that it was unexpected and unpredictable. And it felt unmanageable. And we were all left to figure it out on our own. And so what you talk about is this idea that a child's brain is supposed to be free for play, for curiosity, for exploring things. And yet in this dynamic, that is not what their brain gets to do. Can you talk to us about that? We were exploring. We were exploring each other. We were exploring the mood in the house. We were play was in and out. You know, I think I was more sort of creative and at my projects. And you know, play, I think I identified doing more with neighbors. And children, it all seemed a little bit different to me. And almost frivolous because we didn't play in that kind of a way. We were all we were strategizing and operating Amy. It what didn't feel like late hurry play. And I think I took refuge in my animals and my projects and nature. And and my father who was the alcoholic, but when he was sober was a wonderful father. And then he then he was totally lost in a drunken world. And and that is the other weird thing about addiction is that I would try to follow him into that drunken world, just to find my friend. And you know, where I found him was so disturbing. And so wavy. It's hard to explain it was like being locked in in a ghost closet to find him. So that's that's the other reality you live with with addiction. That is different. I think everything else is pretty much the same for you and me, you know. But the part about addiction is that it is it is so creepy. And my my dad when he was drunk with his whole musculature, you could tell me more about this than I would know. But all I can say is he seemed he seemed animal snake like and you know, different, different. What is that? Well, from a neurological perspective, what was going on there? The different states take over your body. And so you describe these different states in terms of when they're sober, when they're starting to crave, and then when they're under the influence. And those are very different states physiologically as well. And being able to see how that changes the entire person, their posture, where you could look at them and know exactly what state they were in before you even had to say anything. And you knew whether to approach, whether to stay away just by their body. But then I love how you really describe their mood as well. And these rhythms that were happening because the rhythms are part of what we try to figure out is where in the rhythm are we? Are we in the place where he's going to be playful? He's going to be fun. He's going to be the fun dad. Or are we in this phase, this rhythm that we already know that he's starting to get grumpy. He's starting to experience the withdrawal. He's starting to crave and he's not really then paying attention to me, though stay out of his way because it's unleashing on you and everyone else. Or is he now in that state where he's had what calms his nervous system down? And maybe he's more loving. Maybe he's more. Or you bet. But you know Amy, you're saying something that is, you know, sending lights off in my brain because my father was sexually abusive of, you know, to varying degrees, not me directly, but when you're living around that, you're part of it. And part of his craving cycle, I realized when you're talking about this was sexual. And I think a lot of women talk about that that they felt smarmed and sexually violated with no touching or curing. And in my father's case, I've never been able to name that state, but I really think that was a sexually motivated state that I learned to freeze around and then just take off. So it didn't come near me. But that's a big, a half for me and I think and a four, you know, probably most children were raised around that because we would all recognize that state, I think. But you're naming it or we're naming it. Well, we, we're naming it. Well, what I love about how you talk about interdiction is you talk about just the the assiness of an addiction. It's not just alcohol, for example, there is likely going to be some aspect of a process addiction because what is the addiction, but just the seeking of release? of something uncomfortable inside. And that comes in many forms. And so, the sexually acting out or just this unhealthy background dynamic is part of their nervous system dysregulation. It's not going to always be a super clean box of no. Their dysregulation always looks like only alcohol or only a substance. It just builds over into all these ways to deal with the dysregulation. Or eating disorders may have some of those states. Right? Because I was just did a podcast with Tammy Simon the other day. And she was, I mean, it's called like that because it's on the podcast. But she was saying, I didn't have alcohol. My mother in a eating disorder. And had we had this beforehand, I would have suggested that that state was maybe once she was reacting to that craving state because that too, that food scouring hunting, you know, takes over an atmosphere and it takes over the way somebody brings food to their mouth, the way they this. You know, we know this, right? We know this in our bodies. But it's, I mean, we're naming stuff today that isn't, I've never been in this field for a decade. And this is, this is the work you're bringing. I think this subtlety. And I think when we pair up, we bring it. We, we make this very food. Food I have found is so much a part of most of these addiction processes. And it's very interesting to see what foods do they gravitate to. If it's alcohol, I mean, alcohol is still food. And there's a reason why that is so helpful for their nervous system. It's not just the intoxication part. It's also the carbohydrates. It's also that form of carbohydrates. And being able to look at food, I remember being able to know as a child, my father is in that phase where he needs food. He's scrambling for food to help manage whatever. I didn't even know at that time what that was. And here's what I can do. I can bring him food. I can bring him food and then quickly get out of the way. And it was just this dynamic of what is, what is enough to give him what he needs to feel good about himself. And yet, keep me safe. And it felt like walking this tight rope in this particular phase where he was disregulated inside and needing something to just, whoo, settle that. And the subtle games that I would be playing in my mind to try to figure out what does he need? How do I be what he needs? But yet, also know that that is not safe enough for me. So it's, it's, it's a very precarious place to be a lot of inner tension in me and my body. Amy did it circle around carbohydrates and sugars. And even, and even protein. And so, as we were a very low protein diet as part of the religion that we were in. And so there would be times where like cycles, right? Like his mood cycles. And there was a lot more going on that I discovered later in life that were other processes for his management of himself. And so, I think that was the thing that I was seeing that there would just be these, these rhythms that were, I became somewhat predictable in that sense, the predictability of the unpredictable. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course it makes sense. And of course now that I understand more of my work around biology of trauma being able to recognize he was protein deficient. And so he was body needing protein to make neurotransmitters to make serotonin to make dopamine. And that was part of the equation for him for then going into these periods of, I feel out of control. Simply because he wasn't nourishing himself in a way that would and could stabilize his physiology. And yet same thing with alcoholism. And I am, it's exactly, this is one of the most distant conversations I've had in years. This is exactly the same thing. And this is why we all identify with each other. This is why we still feel like, because let me ask you if I may, did it accompany behaviors like if you didn't get any, there was rage. If you didn't get it, there was a little that was cut off there. And the same go to your room, didn't you get your number dose sudden white you always all the stuff that feeds cognitive distortions and attachment trauma. So then there we go. Yeah, there was, I felt like I had three different dads in a sense. I had the dad who was fun. And he would want to play ball with me. And he would want to go biking with me. And he would actually be present in those moments that happened so rarely, but still enough times that I kept trying to get that dad back, trying to go find. Where is that dad? And when I have the these other versions of my dad, how do I help him become that fun dad that I know he is. And that I know that that's where he's happiest with himself. So that was part of me then already. It's a wonderful statement. Not only am I doing it for me, but I'm doing it for him. And then I'm doing it for us. That's that's the thing. 100% and so when he would get into his depression. The depression was something that I. Seemed that I was the only person who could connect with him who could be with him who could help him. And I feel a little better about himself who could make sure that he didn't completely lose himself at those times, whether that was true or not that I was the only one. I don't know, but that was certainly the role that I seem to play in my childhood given my two sisters and my mother, they were not the ones who could. Be around that or that or that she would or that he would even allow into that space. Were you the littlest or I'm the middle. You so they'll be certain in a way maybe you may be the. I think I've been all the families I've worked with. I think the whole middle child syndrome that people think they didn't get enough tension. Again, in attention, I think has really meant to say I think I said, attention. But I think in this functional families, the middle do better oftentimes because they because they don't get as much attention. I think it's a plus. Yes, I'm kind of happy with with my position. Because I can see that my older sister had so much pressure for being the performer. And she was the one who was expected to get the good grades even though that was still an expectation on me. And I found that that was one way that I could make my father feel better was to show him that I was also accomplishing. And he could be proud of me and he could boast about me. That was very important to him to be able to boast about his children. And then my younger sister was the super fun one, which again for my dad, given his mood cycles, he didn't know what to do with fun all the time. And then my dad was kind of that was the this is who I am when I can be the fun dad, but these other states it it was primarily left to me or I assumed that in order to help him. And help the family. These are co states, you know, we don't. We do it together. So it's, you would have had some mutual choice, right? We chose you. You chose him. Yes, yes. And then I needed to learn how to choose differently. That was that was my healing journey. But there is a moment in time that has still stuck with me and I've never really known what to do with this until I've been reading your book growing up with addiction. And there were things that it just brought me back to that very moment. I'm standing in the kitchen. I'm about 15, 16 years old. And for both me and my dad, emotional eating was our go to for managing our emotions and at that point. And I'm staying in the kitchen. So he's coming in from his office there. at the house. And I could tell that he was just in one of those, almost, almost like a hypomanic. I feel on top of the world something really great just happened. And here's my daughter, you know, that I feel the most emotional connection with. And I remember sensing that and remember being like, I need, I need to put some distance, I need to put some distance, but I am grabbing food. I mean, this is what I was doing. I was, I was grabbing food and so is he. And he came up behind me and just did some, some things that just felt icky. But there's, I mean, in no way what I have said, oh, that was clearly sexual or sexual abuse. But it just felt that way. But I remember the inner paralysis that I had in that moment of who does he need me to be right now? Not what do I want? Who does he need me to be right now? Does, does he need me to enjoy this? Does he need me to? I, I didn't know, which was terrifying, right? Because I've been able to figure out most of the silent rules by then. And so to not know, then left me with an internal just pulling a part of my tissues. I mean, the, the sensation of my own gut was terror, but I need to be who he needs me to be or else he, he falls apart. And I do know that. I know that if I'm not who he needs me to be, he will experience shame. And then he'll spiral out of control and I'll fall into that depression again. And then we won't see her here from him for days. It was very, that is, that is very powerful. And may I say something about a piece of your history? I know, and you've been, you've talked about it in public on many occasions, but could I connect it here? Yeah. Yeah. Did any of your journey start with an emergency room doctor that you couldn't please? As, um, that's, I mean, it is the way things work. Exactly. You know, that if we don't resolve it at one place, it shows up somewhere else. And we're in the powerlessness you talk about in the face of that, the falling apart. I mean, don't let me put words in your mouth, but I'm trying to recall your words, but not being able to manage something that you weren't allowed to manage as a growing young woman or a child comes back. And then with it's there all over again. And it can be even more devastating because by this time, you know, I'm a mother and a wife or you're an MD and a, you know, an emergency room, you know what I mean? We think, where we think because we got taller, we got older, you know, we got degrees, we matured. But only a part of us matured. There's other part that is locked within the attachment system. And these open tensions that I love the way you talk about them in your book and, and I'd quote you in mind, seeking closure, seeking closure, seeking closure. Can you address the insula in that? Well, I mean, in that moment when he's coming behind you, and there I wanted to make one more point about that moment to add into what I'm asking you. It has to do with your developmental stage too, right? He may have done something that he did many times. And because you were not sensitized at that point, it just felt like, oh, my dad's, you know, grabbing my back or my dad's, you know, but didn't feel, it didn't get marked. But this is a part of parenting that our children enter. These developmental stages and for young women and young men when you develop sexually, you know, sexual being, your body receives things differently. I remember when my son became an adolescent. I had to just change. I mean, what I normally did was not, I mean, leaning over to give him a kiss. I mean, I had to practically, I had to be careful of everything that is a, this is a little boy who started in my body and I nursed and I, you know, so for a parent and who I hugged and, you know, it goes so fast for a parent that we don't realize that their developmental stage requires a change in our behavior, but it fits too much of a change. That doesn't reggae that. If a woman, if a young woman says developing and then gets distance from the father who thinks, oh, my goodness, she might be, that's no good because then she wonders why is he not loving me the way he did. But then, I mean, I'm wondering how old you were for one thing and I'm wondering, you know so much about the biology, how that was recorded and happening inside your body at the time. Well, there's what I, what I know in terms of the science and then how I experienced that science and when I had emotions and sensations that yes, or then being processed in, you know, the limbic system in this inular region of the brain, where the emotions and the sensations of the body come together and they try to make sense when that is something that not only doesn't make sense, but I don't, I can't have the time to make sense of it because I've got to manage you. And so somehow I've got to just numb enough of what's going on in me, disconnect enough from what's going on in me that feels very confusing, it feels very uncomfortable, feels like I'm dying inside, but I can't pay attention to that because if you're not okay, I'm not safe. And so my primary job is not to make sense of my emotions, even if I had a person that could help me with that as a child. My primary job is to manage your emotions and to make sure that you are not experiencing rejection from me, make sure that you're not experiencing any shame as a parent because of what I'm doing as your child. And that I see created a lot of digestive issues in me later on. Maybe not immediately, though looking back, there were already different issues that I had with my gut, but again, I didn't have time to pay attention to that. It was just a way to. How did it create the digested issues? What's that physiological feeling? Well, a lot of it can be summed up in the survival physiology. And when your survival physiology is always on, it's never a good time to eat. So you're never making the amount of stomach acid that actually is helpful to even break down food. You're always in a state of reaction and inflammation in your gut so that no matter what you eat, there's always this passage of food particles between the cells and your digestive tract that then create more inflammation. That is designed to be able to help your immune system detect danger faster. What are we eating? What's in our environment? Let's take it in so we can analyze it and then know what is safe and what is not safe. Except when everything feels unsafe, then that is what leads to a lot of that opening up of the gaps between the cells. And there's digestive issues, there's bloating, there's pain, there's constipation, there's diarrhea, there's all that. And as a child, we can adapt to that better than when it's been happening for years and for decades. And so what I see is by the time a person reaches midlife, especially with the pariamine-apost transition, their body is done, trying to adapt to a constant sense of, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do life, I don't know how to do relationships. I'm still trying to figure out the rules with every new relationship that comes across my path. Now, me specifically, I've also developed stomach ulcers. And the stomach ulcers have now been closely associated with a certain type and certain degree of overwhelm. And it's the same feeling that I have when I was in my family of origin, where I feel like I'm damned if I do something and I'm also damned if I don't do something. There's no good option here. I'm wrong if I do this and I'm wrong if I don't do this. There's no option here for me to come out. Okay. I often wonder why, because when I was, when my family was falling apart, I was getting migraines, I was getting stomach. I could have, they were, they felt like insidious on the golf course, they were so painful. And then my family fell apart. And it, it was, it was hard to explain. It was like a house just went like this, you know, just fell apart the roof. It was all still standing, but the internal house was falling apart. And what I discovered is that it mobilized for me. I look back on it now is the making of me and the blessing, because I got out of a family, I didn't know how to get out of. Now decades, it took me to actually get out of something on purpose, because I never did went through that passage of, of chosen individualization, you know, in a, in a conscious way. It just, it left me, but it was a liberation. And I changed my routines and I had friends over differently and I took over rooms in the house of Rianti and I signed them different things. And I got a job. And I think that was, I, I'm interested in how many kids who get jobs and figure out they can make their own paycheck, realize I thrive with that. Because it's very empowering to want to start adding up and thinking I could, I could manage a first month, last month's rent if I needed to. And I think it's the ones who can't get out. Can't get out who are trapped in a system. And then there is no good choice. But if you are in a system that falls apart, there is some part of you that that I think thinks I don't want to say it out loud, but I think I'm better off, you know, um, does that resonate with you in any way? Resonates a lot. And I'm curious your thoughts on how I managed that delicate balance for me, where I still was not free of the family dynamics. But yet I found a way to create enough independence. And in just the right way that I wouldn't trigger my father feeling rejected. Still like the, the mind games that I played. I still had to do all that because I, you know, I stopped going out wait for like overnight. And I, because I was left now with my mother who, you know, in the Greek order of things to get a real mother, you know, I mean, forget that I was 14 years old. That's the logic of the, the old country. And so I did, I did. I made sure I took care of her first. And boy, did she let me on every little thing. I mean, every little thing food, clothing, everything. So what was that like then when she passed away? Well, she, I lost her way before that because she was 94 when she passed away. And by then we, I have to say more before I answer that, I think. Because mom, uh, remarried when I was 21 and, and my stepfather was in the picture a few years before that. Now we all love their stepfather. He was, she married a wonderful man who, I love my father, but we also had a really wonderful stepfather. We were very lucky. Um, and he had no children. So he kind of, you know, we became his kids. And dad died when I was 23. So I had that loyalty bind was not so it wasn't choking. I mean, it was still very strong because I was dad's proxie on earth. But, um, so I lost mom then once she enrolled closed their bedroom door. And I could hear this kind of weird laughter. I mean, it was, I took it very personally that she, I, who closes their bedroom door when they've got a child in the house so that the child winds up feeling that knocking is sort of like asking for entrance in a royal. Um, that did, that, I didn't understand that. And I, and we didn't do that in, in my home, right? Things were accessible. So that began a ser, a loss. And my mom, because I think there was so much envy with my close relationship with my dad was going to make the day I'm sure that yesterday didn't repeat itself because wall tonight actually had a really warm relationship. I mean, he taught me how to, you know, use a camera. He taught me it is the dark room. We, we'd go out, we had lunch. We treated me like a daughter. Yeah, I mean like a, but with a very boundary respectful way. But then I, and then of course, my husband came in and wasn't so nuts about my stepfather as I was so that that was another element of distance. But somehow there were many factors of why I lost mom and we became contentious. And so, but, by the time mom died, Walt had died 10 years sooner. And mom and I, um, I kept sort of saying to myself, I think if my mother just treated me well, I would get along with her because I think I know how I'm her daughter. And I don't think it's me. Although I was convinced it was me for a couple of decades. Oh, she convinced me, she was convinced it was me. Let's put it that way. But I remember eventually I got enough recovery and health to think I don't, I don't think this is me. I come in with an open heart or an open mind anyway. And I just watch her make sure nothing, you know, good happens. And sure enough in the last five years of her life. After her memory, I think I just think she forgot she didn't like me. I think she just, I think she forget. She forgot that she with some jealous of me and forgot all of these things. And she just, I think I became almost like her favorite child and she adored my husband and my kids. So we actually were very close for a number of years. And I really was gratified because I thought, I'm so glad I didn't close this possibility off because I got to love my mother. And you know why I didn't? This is, I'll be quick. We used to go to this paper. It was in a hotel. It's kind of like a funky spa. My mother, my sisters and I, my two sisters and I would go for five days or a week or something and took to Florida. And it was very, very much such as an era, but it was all kind of funky and cozy and community-ish. And for those five days, because my mother was so narcissistic, she would be very loving and nice to me. In private, she was awful, just awful. But for five days, and I remember one time she came on a bus. We were all touring something. She came and said, "Tiana, you forgot your lunch." And I'm like 45 years old, T.I. So, but I wanted to, I saw myself in my mind wanting to stand up in the bus and point and go, "That woman is that my mother. Don't be full. She's horrible." She didn't feed me one meal of my teenage years. Don't think she cares about what I eat. She doesn't. And because of the vehement of my mind inside, my reaction that I observed, I sort of was at a crossroads and I thought, "Tiana, try and experiment. Let this in. Let this mother feel good to you for five days a year. And even if it's all you would ever get, let yourself have this experience of your mother being nice to you. Even if you know it's going to come to a crashing halt on the six of day, which it always did. But I did it. And I was, it was like my quiet victory. And I kept that level alive in my heart. And I kept that passage, that two-way passage. So that when it could happen in life, I was there for it. And it did happen in life. And it's a, it's a miracle. So when you talk about your family falling apart then, what did that look like for your family? What did that look like for you? Looks like my older sister, we, we went to Greece for a year, for two Athens. We were Greek American. My father's Greek. And he said, he retired and he said, "You don't know anything about your history." So we're going to move to Greece. And then you get drunk and he said, "We're not going to move in my mother." And he said, "No, we don't kind of like the idea. We're going." We packed all up this big Cadillac into the hold and suitcases and a year's worth of everything. And got on ship. And say all the cross and at that point we were a family of five. My brother didn't come because he was a college at that point. My sister was just beginning college and she went to the American University of Athens and my other sister and I went to the American school. Then once we got there, this is the beginning. Now this was a great year for us. I love them doing that. And once I adjusted, but Koozi, my older sister, who had taken care of us. She had been my special person who took care of us. She was our big sister and she was a sweet big sister by and large. Her boyfriend fell apart and he was very serious boyfriend and they kind of got her to go back. So in her friend Carol was staying also so she left. So that went from 6 to 4 5. You know, you know, at Thanksgiving. And then and for which I was very sad not just to lose Koozi, but for Koozi to lose this wonderful experience she was having. And it's it taught me in my head, a bad lesson, a good lesson maybe even as don't fall in love young because this good mess your life up terribly. That was the beginning of the following part. Then when we left Greece where dad was very top of the heap and great social world and you know he's drinking he and mom spent all this time together. So he drank less. And he felt good about himself and he was a sort of, you know, bone people and we went back and I think the crash was too and manageable for him to go back to Minneapolis at fish out of water. And he drank he just drank his way through that period he was just drunk as a skunk. And that began a warning cycle in me of loss. It just I was losing all of the everything. Koozi was gone, Nick was gone. Now dad was drunk. And we were just kind of left to try to you know we were like carrying little scraps around to try to find nourishment in. And I went I got involved with the church. That we always involved we were very much in the church and that was very helpful. And then I left my school I was at a private girl school and I decided I was bored because I'd been at this international school and I made a change. So that is where the shift happened for me of starting to take care of my own life. So those that year of falling apart I I both fell apart and I made the resilient decision of what we taught we're taught in the 50s when you're in the darkest place. I'll look for somebody in a who has less than you and help them. That was how we found our way out and also reach your arm out and help with whatever within this circle. And I was very good solid pieces of advice. So I volunteered to be a candy stripper. I started a little camp and made my own way. And then I got a real sense of autonomy and I decided to leave school and go to the local public school, which was a big shock for my parents and they didn't like it. And I said, well, you can drop me off there, but I'm not going in. So I'm, you know, I can't believe I said it, but my sister, I told me it did. So once I was in public school, I got a job. I took the bus. I actually, you know, I had, I had friends who I could get to instead of have to be driven where my father was driving my mother never wanted to go anywhere. My brother was now out of the house and my sister. So I was just sitting duck. So once I took charge of my life. It was very sad. I was carrying a lot of sadness, but I was also having a lot of fun. So that's how falling apart looked to for me if it was really painful and extraordinarily empowering. Is that answer? Yeah, I know that that answer is really well. And I am appreciating this idea of holding so much grief. And yet at the same time, that's not what it looks like at that time, right? Like it looks like becoming more independent. It looks like becoming more of figuring out what you want and what you want to do. And then I think over time that grief becomes more obvious, more apparent and there comes a time of reckoning where we have to realize that what we went through did cause us grief and needs to be grieved. Exactly what happened for me and the reckoning would you like me to respond to that? The reckoning came, you know, one of the positive decisions I made, I had gotten a little gain 10 pounds in Greece, because you know, that was the nature of the place. And so I sat at the diet table because the food at Northrop was awful anyway, so I might as well get cheese and rice. So I had this, I got myself in terrific shape. I went to this new school looking great. I was embraced fast and that gave me a two year reprieve to be this kind of happy seeming girl. And then it started to catch up to me when I realized the gap in the way other kids seem to be like harder than the way I wasn't. And I remember one defining moment this darling girl, you know, stressing out about her like her prom dress and I remember just looking at her and thinking, but my first thought was you're stressing out about your prom dress, you know, I do want to know my life. And then I remember thinking, can maybe if you don't resent her for her good fortune. And then I will smile upon you one day, don't this girl is doing nothing, she's lucky, that's all. And that's what happened. And then my senior and my junior senior year, we're just sad and I changed the Greece started coming out. And then I started making different friends and. We very deep friends poetry artists creativity re re re re re re we could talk about subjects because we all had unhappy norms. And we didn't have to hide so much. So the and then I went to the university and that was. And I was just a reprieve, it was just fun and so I it went in cycles. And I think because I grieved I could have life again and then I could. I could make decisions and all of my decisions were tended to be practical and propelling me forward because of. And I was really honestly, I was talking with my husband about this more, I don't I don't think I ever lost my moral compass. And I was a I really listened in Sunday school or my life and I really a lot of moral upbringing. And I think we don't talk enough about a moral compass and that's it's a real loss of our religious institutions because and they deserve to be re examined. They need re examining, but we shouldn't lose them because we need we need good or early direction. If that's your 12 step program or your church or your temple or it doesn't matter, but we need a moral compass and we need to be taught and held and cared about. And if we lose that moral compass, we're in big trouble because we have nothing to base our decision. I mean when my father became so dysfunctional, I remember I used to say I remember having a moment of reckoning and I thought I have to take it from here. I was in about 10th grade. I have to take care of my mother. And I have to take care of myself and I remember I asked myself what would my father. My good father wants for me. And then I would figure out how to want it for myself because I knew I had that more I had that love. It was just gone. It was not available, but I had had it. And we can get it from somewhere. You know, it really ties into the attachment threads that run through everything. And looking back on my childhood as you're speaking, I can see how the church provided a container and a predictability for me that I didn't have in my home. And if I hadn't have had that, I don't know if I would have made it. I don't know what I would have done because it provided one place in my life where there was this predictability, almost, yeah, black and white type of you have church service at this time every single week, whether it's knows whether it rains, whether whatever, like there's just this attachment to the government to safety, to predictability through that that can be. of huge value and service to people who are otherwise in chaos. And it's everything. Yeah. It's a lifeline. It is a lifeline. Mm hmm. So it's nice we can talk about that. It is, you know, looking, looking back to be able to see those people, places, things that were a lifeline for us. It's so helpful. Yes. There's a lot to grieve and being able to look at the timelines that you do with the relational trauma repair. This idea that there were resources for me, or else I would not be here today. There were resources for me along the way at strategic times when I most needed it. Yes. Yes. It was there for me. We have to build resilience. We can't just dismantle. And I think one of the things that I talked just Tammy about also, which we was talking about recovery. And what you do at a certain stage, and I said, it's not going to sound popular, you'll say, but at a certain stage in recovery, it just takes some discipline. You know, when you just decide not to keep going down the rabbit hole, you decide to be responsible for the state of mind you are in and see what you are attracting into your life and saying, asking yourself, how did I get myself into this? What did I do to create this? And you own your side of something. It's not just the victim, the chronic victimhood is, it's a, it's a dark narcissism, really. It's a, it's a sort of a dark narcissism, you know, it is. And I feel like this is where I got that from Alan on. I got that from 12 step recovery. I did not get that piece of personal responsibility from the church. I got predictability from the church. What I got from Alan on was this Amy, like you're creating this, you're choosing this. And that for me was when I started to form a very specific image that helped free me from my family dynamics. And I'll end with this and then kind of throw out that famous quote from Alan on and have you comment on that as we close. But what I saw as my father was him in a mud pit. I'm outside of the mud pit, but I'm trying to help him get out of the mud pit. But instead of helping him out, he's just pulling me in. And being able to see it in a visual that way, allowed me to free myself from those ongoing dynamics that I was contributing to. The dynamics are always created by two people. So I am creating that dynamic and until I change, the dynamic is not going to change. Of course, you see, you see that Amy? You just saw it. I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't remember honestly. I just remember getting this very clear visual that allowed me to see the role that I had been playing and my choice in what to do next. Did I want to continue to be pulled into the mud pit? Even though I had great intentions of being the one to help him out. And very, and that's very good that you saw that. But that's great. It was, I mean, it was foundational for me to then have that pivot in who I was and the role that I was willing to continue to play in our dynamic. Choosing to no longer play that role had drastic consequences on our relationship. We haven't spoken for 10, 15 years. Well, that says everything about what you were dealing with as a child and why you knew in your body saying no was not a possibility. That's what you think was not a possibility of that type. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's I think to wrap that thought, you know, parents cannot be perfect a lot. But if you allow your imperfections to be named and called up by your kids, and you kind of own them, even in a flood up kind of a way. Okay. I know. You know, the kids so much better off because they don't have to go underground with them. I've seen that in family systems a lot. Yes. And as a child, I knew that if I did not be there in the pit with him, he was going to sink. We were going to lose him. Yes. So, well, but and he was going to make you suffer and he was going to make me suffer. That's you're saying something so important. And so once I became old enough, then I was able to see that dynamic for what it was and make a different choice about who do I want to be now given that I am an adult. I don't have to play that role anymore. That I did feel I had to play as a child when losing him in this mud pit, having him actually sink was a very real risk. And having him take you with him. And that's really the opposite side of the making you, okay. You know, I mean, I think the message is you, you don't separate. I'm penalty of. Yeah. So this conversation has really opened up a few more things for me and my childhood that I need to go go process. One of them being having more clarity on exactly the role that I took on as a child, which for me, I took on the role of my dad cannot feel ashamed or rejected. It's my job to have him feel good about himself. And being able to. Yeah. I mean, thank you. Like this is the clarity that I've been able to have from from this conversation. And then being able to see all these other different scenarios that happened, you know, even around our family trips and our family vacations. And wow, like the dynamics, but being able to see them through this new lens of, yeah, he was in his rhythm. And he had been in a certain place when he had decided to take this vacation. But at the time of the vacation, he was already in a very different place. Wow. And being able to see that clearly, like it actually wasn't about me. It actually wasn't that I had failed to do my homework. And so now we're going to cancel the whole trip because you're, you know, a failure as a daughter. It actually had nothing to do with me. It was just his rhythms and being able to have clarity on that from this conversation is very helpful. Now you have really highlighted the value of a certain quote from Ellen on, but I'd like to end on because of how life changing it can be for those listening. And that quote is to, you know, a relative quote of that is love the person. Hate the disease. It's, it's really, you know, my mother taught me to do this because my mother went to Helena when I was a teenager and she used to use the slogan, this part of battering grams, but at the same time, like, you know, I'm sorry, you feel that way. You couldn't tell me mother anything. You could just say, I'm sorry, you feel that way. And you raise you. And, but much of what I learned from her about Alan was so helpful. And she told me that they tell us to love the person and hate the disease. And I, I don't know how much of a, I really observed and used, but in retrospect, I observed more than enough of it because I loved my father. I hated his disease. And mom really did. I remember we were talking about the sexual abuse. And he said, um, I said, what, how did that go? Oh, she said, you know, well, he only did that when he was drunk. And I said, you know, mom, do you know how bad sounds? And she said, oh, I know, I know, I know it's unbearable. But, but what I mean to say and is that was not your father? Your father would never have done that as a sober man. Your father employed you all with you. And I, it hit me like a lightning bolt and it was so loving and kind. And my parents had been troubled and pain and divorce, but they, they never worked mean about each other. I remember one time dead sending me money for a plane ticket to visit him in Florida where he'd moved. And I complained about something. And mom said, you know, he sure had to settle for the crumbs of fatherhood. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, this is, this is the man who adored you who worked so hard for you and dreamt all these dreams for you. And look where he is now. And he has the same you would take it to visit him. I mean, I didn't, you know, but it was a very loving thing to say. And I remember, you know, to stick a firm after all they've been through. And many years later, I mean, like in the last few years of her life, I said, "Mom, you know, you and dad didn't rag on each other and stuff. I mean, how did you, how did you do that?" And she said, "Well, we knew this. None of this was about you." And my mother wasn't just like the most generous person on earth. She was just being honest. And somehow they both understood this was not our fault. But they didn't just understand it and say to us, "No, none of this was your fault. Look, I don't think they ever said that." But they acted like it. They didn't make it our fault. They never suggested it was our fault. So, and I think her Allanon, her Allanon and my dad's a Greekness, you know, my father's wisdom, I think he understood. If he, if we thought he didn't love mom, we would feel unlocal, right? He knew this kind of thing from his Greekness. And so he never spoke to me. He said, "You know, you're a very good mother. You know, she's going up. It was always positive about each other." And I think a lot of the more modern, you know, people today think, "Just sit down with the kids and say it's not your fault. Is if that's going to penetrate, if you don't back it with behavior." So I think all of this is separating and loving the person and hating the disease is actually a very fair thing because it is a disease. And what we need is awareness. So whether it's the food and your father and the lack of protein and, you know, or my father and his inability to find a better tool. And he has many reasons for not finding it. We should have, but I understand. So that's so easy. It's not easy. I think that that's the work that each of one of us is called to do is to reach a place of understanding knowing that in some ways I have done the same. I have sought out things to numb. I have sought out things to manage things. I am sure that I have hurt people in the process and it looks different, but we still share our humanity. And that humanness is what I can see in each person beyond their disease. Whether it has a diagnosis or not, it's just, it's still a disease process, still a physiological process. And I can love the person and hate, hate that is a logical process. You're bringing that to the field, Amy. You're bringing clarity on the physiological process. We don't talk about that. We've moved the field pretty far in our generation of trauma and neurobiology, but you are bringing it. That's why I'm so excited about, you know, when I, in this model where all the trainers and I get a chapter, I do the first chapter. Yours is number two. I mean, it's, I'm so proud of it. I love it. It's so important. What you're doing is it's really important. Well, a reflection back on you because you've been a leader in the space from the very beginning when it was still very populated, only do cognitive behavioral therapy and talk therapy. And you're like, no, it's got to be in the body. Relational trauma has to be in the body. I was sort of going, woo, you know, I'm drafted. I mean, I honestly think if I didn't look so normal and dress in such an ordinary way, that I think that's a part of what made me easy to listen to is that I am so normal, you know, I'm not wearing kind of wacky and anything and I'm not wacky. But it was hard enough to hear what I was saying way back then and I had to explain myself like endlessly. And I don't have to anymore. People are giving it. It's remarkable. It's so cool. That is what you helped create. I am the part of it. Which then allows someone like me to come in and not have to work as hard because you paved the way. Mm hmm. Yeah. You were hard in what you're bringing forward. I see how I do that. Absolutely. Well, let's wrap up any what last words of hope. Would you want to share with people who are recognizing? Mm hmm. Oh, I thought they're not for them. No, they're not. They might be. Yeah, there might be more to grieve from my childhood than what I even knew. What would be your final words of hope? I would say at 75 and I'll be 76 in April. Do not feel bad. Because every new stage of life triggers. I mean, I find something to grieve. Like for us, when he hears about everyone, he would say, "Remorning." But then he would be right. But I'm always clearing out something. And things just get triggered when they get triggered. And what happens is the triggers. What I ask myself is, why am I reacting to this small thing in such a big way? And that just means there's something there to look at. Now whether if that's to grieve, if that's to be aware of it, whatever it is, it's a non-ending process. We let the ability to move through that in the moment. Daily. Yeah. Just the daily cleaning. The daily cleaning. I think it's just like cleaning a house. You wouldn't expect to clean it and I'm coming in a month later and have you wouldn't expect to just still be clean. I don't know why we think we're different. We're just as changeable and dust, you know, you know, accumulating and all that stuff. We live in a world where we are prey to everything. We are the flesh is here to everything. Well for me, this latest book is a next layer for me. So thank you for your word of faith. I'll look at that. So you're great at this book. Yes, of course. Yeah, I love how you continue to be a mentor for me and a guide in my own healing and showing me. There's another layer there. Let's clean that out too. We will highly encourage, highly encourage everyone to grab this book. Whether or not you had addiction in your family, again, this is not my story, but it is my story because I think that's worth exploring some more together on another occasion, Amy, because it's really important. This is an important thing that we were talking about. Let's do that. I love spending time with you. A great message to remember from this conversation is that human is like cleaning a house. You wouldn't clean the house and expect it to stay clean even a month later. Our nervous system works the same way. Throughout this different stages of life and even one experience to another, it can surface things that need to be processed, integrated, repaired. Tion's new book, Growing Up With Addiction, is now out and whether addiction was part of your family or not, it's such a great reflection into our early life experiences, those family dynamics and who we needed to become. And I strongly recommend the book. We'll find links to Dr. Tion's work and her book in the show notes. As well as a link to my new YouTube channel called Songs of the Inner World. This is music that I've composed where I share different aspects of my own healing journey, things from inner child working grief and even teaching my body that it was safe to breathe. Thank you for joining me for this episode. I'm your host Dr. Amy and until next episode, lots of love.