Growing Up in Stage 5 Hoarder Home

Hey guys, I just dropped an all-new episode inside my new subscription channel where all insane plus. This month's episode is called Stocked for 25 Years. Listen now by subscribing to where all insane plus for just $5.99 a month inside your Apple or Spotify app or go to whereallansane.com. My name is Summer Joy and I grew up in a stage 4 to 5 hoarder home including Extreme Animal Hording and I'm here to discuss my story because I've realized unfortunately through sharing online that it's quite common for kids to unfortunately grow up in these scenarios and I just really want to help break the the shame cycle around it. Absolutely. Yeah. So from the outside looking in, my father actually is a licensed counselor, like a drug and a addiction counselor so he from the outside looking in is this very reputable man, like cares about people and like works in the care field and then my mother very kind like overly like caring person especially when we're out in public but behind closed doors my father was what I believe is not diagnosed but a raging narcissist. Very controlling and I do believe that is what contributes to the hoarding disorder in my home. A lot of people like with hoarding disorder like it really stems from a bunch of different things it's a compulsive disorder so people feel a need for whatever reason to keep a hold of things and usually as it progresses those things end up being like trash and then like in my case like tons of animals like things you don't need and a lot of people kind of have this naive perception like just clean and even like I've gotten a lot of shame as a child even throughout my whole childhood like why don't you help your parents clean like they need your help like this that and the third but it wasn't our responsibility but also people don't realize that cleaning up for a hoarder is very similar to if you were to like go up to an alcoholic and dump out all of their alcohol. If they're not ready to get clean the cycle is just going to keep continuing so it's the same with hoarding like there were periods of my life where the house would get really clean and then it would just immediately like go down and that's something like I definitely learned growing up was like to not hold out hope like things would get better for like tiny periods and then it would get worse and from my perspective like I never saw my parents ever recognize it ever like get any like help for it which I mentioned my dad's like a therapist like he went to school for all of that like he would think that he so it's never been discussed not like within the family not until like I spoke up way later in life and like it's interesting because like that is definitely like a part of a lot of toxic family cycles is like you just know not to discuss things like once they're done with they're done with like it's kind of that very black and white thinking like hey it's done with like we can't talk about it anymore like they feel like you're extremely gilting them and like not that I like giving my parents grace honestly because they don't give me much but from the perspective of like them being hoarders it's a very like shame guilt ridden like disorder so it is hard for them to face it but then obviously from the child's perspective it just there's no excuse when you're like causing harm to your children and that like they were confronted in many ways like in stages throughout my life and like that because it was so traumatic there is like you know that's where I don't remember much I really only really remember the super like traumatic points but when I was in elementary school I like for as long as I could remember we got severely bullied for it myself and my siblings because the reality especially with extreme animal hoarding is our clothes often wreaked like cat pee like every morning when I would wake up to go to school I like it was always like an anxious struggle to like find the cleanest clothes to wear and we never really had a working wash or not consistently so you would often try to like hoard your own like clean clothes in your room to like keep them away from the animals but it really never worked like we thought it did like when we tried our best but the smell like really is something you can't escape when you live in a home like that so like in the mornings I'd struggle to find clean clothes and then because my parents hordered so many animals in the home at times like 15 plus dogs who would have litters of puppies like there was never a fixed animal in my home like my parents never fixed their animals so 10 plus dogs 20 plus cats a bunch of other random like things throughout my life and none of them were ever house broken so like you can imagine like that many animals in a home yeah overnight right now I was gonna ask you with that many animals were they I mean I guess you basically just answered it but was there any type of training or any routine for them or not really like it is interesting because earliest earliest memories like before the animal hoarding got extreme like I remember like my father having a dog that was like extremely trained well like yeah he like taught a team like do all of like the typical tricks you teach a dog and like that was like super early in my life but then once everything else progressed like there was never anything like training and even just like aside from that like never much put in like they'll say like we love our animals and like I say it's kind of a metaphor for like how they are with like me and myself playing those kids like we love our children but they don't offer anything to like back that up like they don't offer like emotional support and even though that was like a thing going on like obviously it was shameful for them but like they never tried to like discuss with their children how it affected them they never really like from my perspective like I never really saw them try to like get better and oftentimes like the blame was like put on to myself and my siblings in like various different ways which feeds back into like what I believe is like my father's narcissism he really cannot like take accountability for it and that that comes with hoarding in general but even as far as like anytime you try to confront him you know it's not a safe space to do so because it always will get flipped back onto you even like as a child like I knew like from as young as I could remember I could not like ask or like confront my father about something because it would just end poorly like it was always known at least in my family like with me and my siblings that like my mother was at least the safer person to try to discuss things with but then even in that situation my mother wasn't an emotionally safe person because she very much pre-rentified me like he's me as an emotional dumping ground like if we did talk about our situation it was more so her venting to me about how it affected her and like her feeling guilty about it but like not really doing anything to like change it your mom and your dad would you say that they were both like the stage four five quarters or was one worse than the other I mean that's something I definitely think about a lot and I have like discussed a little bit like with my siblings as I've gone older but I believe it was mostly my father because he definitely like when I think back like he was the one who would experience anger like when we would throw things out which kind of like feeds back into like the alcoholic metaphor like if you were to dump out an alcoholic like like or they would get pissed off and that was like the same with us and I would say more so it was my father that had like the anger part of it so like I feel like he was the one like controlling the hoarding and then my mom really kind of was like in a domestic violence relationship with my father as well so there was definitely a lot of like other dynamics in that situation but she very much enabled him okay but then when I think back to like the state of the home like my mother definitely tried to keep things clean like as she could manage them and like she would have little areas of the home that were like super organized so it's I feel like I like say like I don't know like if she wasn't with my father I don't know if like the hoarding would be part of her story okay from like my perspective but honestly who knows and it is really kind of like a disorder that like I don't like when I say it's like what's the word like other people contagious It's not really like that, but it is common that if you are around a hoarder, especially for a long period of time, that can really alter you and rub off on you. Definitely especially with kids in these scenarios, they struggle to brush like that. Yeah, and you're not taught with anything. As a child, if you're not taught something, you don't know. That is your normal. I think even though you experienced bullying and people maybe making fun of you guys because of the smell or the hygiene or whatever, you can know that that aspect of things might feel embarrassing in that moment, but you're still going home to it and your parents aren't really changing anything. So it's like, I feel like it's very confusing for a child to understand. In a way, I was different from my siblings in that I was very academically driven, which I've learned is maybe odd for someone in my scenario, but that was definitely what I did to cope, like hyperfixate. I definitely always knew, even if I didn't know the extreme as young as I was, like to what I was dealing with, I always had this idea that I need to go to school. That is my way out of here. I very much put like a high stake on getting good grades because I knew that that is how I always survive. And it sucked because school became like not a safe space for me because no matter what, as we did grow up in a very small town and we were in the same town for all of my schooling life pretty much, you couldn't escape it. Once that was your reputation, that was the reputation that followed us from elementary school to the end. In a lot of ways, like really rid of me and especially, I would say my siblings of any access to knowing what normalcy was and in a way, the bullying pushed us more into like the toxic family system. It's like these people are unsafe, even though like yes, they are kind of highlighting and pointing out like these things that maybe like our parents need to pay attention to. It actually, in a lot of ways, what I've realized is the children bear like majority of the shame and guilt in these scenarios because they're the ones usually facing a lot of like the public. Yeah. Ridicule, like I even had like Diffus and CPS workers asked like why I didn't help to clean more and that's apparently like a common thing in situations like this. So it's interesting that like no matter like where you go, there really wasn't many ways for us to safely disclose what we were going through or to like learn. And like it is such a shameful and embarrassing thing that I feel like even the people that tried maybe in a kinder way, it didn't land well because we were being bullied and it was like why are we going to listen to people? Like it really made us feel like our parents were right and like they so at that type of all the time behind closed doors at that time period, my parents were telling like they were coaching us to lie and I very much always struggled like I was very much a goody-touchy teacher's pet like type of person and I really struggled with it growing up and I think my parents aweson knew that. I think that's why I'm here today doing this. But I just knew that it was like wrong to lie but my parents would like make sure that like we knew like being honest about our situation at school with guidance counselors. Whoever would potentially for me like the main like guilt point they knew was like we did have a bunch of animals and you do get emotionally attached as a child in that scenario. It's like well if you speak up like animal control will come, we'll take all the animals and it's like you lose out on like all of that and as a kid I'm like oh no like they won't be safe. And even as a kid like my parents very much had this like anti shelter mentality which is like wild because they were contributing to the shelter popular like problem the whole entire time but maybe like oh it's so rude for like dogs to go to shelters like blah blah blah. So that was like their main point to be like if you speak up like they're going to lose the animals and like I grew up riding horses and it's like you lose access to like this one positive thing from my childhood so they used that against me. I don't know too much like I guess what they use against my siblings but they very much like primed us that like telling would end up poorly for us and then especially once like CPS and Diphists like got more like commonly involved in our lives they would like make sure we know like if you don't tell them you're happy here like besides the hoarding you'll probably like get put into foster care or adoption and like you'll end up in an even worse family where things will be worse off. I mean that's common like toxic families it's like black and white it's like even though we're treating you like horribly we're going to like make it this black and white thing where it's like well could be worse so like don't say anything about it. Right. Which is very like because like I look back and I'm like oh like how much of it is like intent and you know disorder like I feel like anyone that has like parents that struggle with any mental health thing like you try to discern like the difference a little bit but it's hard for me to be like they didn't intend to do this when I look back and I see so many like intentional like ways to like cover it up because you don't try to cover up something you know is you're not aware of yeah like you're not aware of or you don't know it was wrong and you feel like there was a notice noticeable difference between how they would act in public with other people and then how they would be at home with people. A lot of the time. Okay. For the most part like I would say people in like from where I'm from my hometown especially I think my parents are good people and I mean yeah like definition of good. Right. It's different to everyone but like oh they're great in the community my father ran for like political like committee member and like I was backed by all these people after I like left like the home and it's like weren't you all like parents of the kids that were like bullying me for like 15 plus years like aren't you aware like because it is such a small town it's like if your kids are bullying me like I feel like you're aware of like what was happening and also it's just like when you see a hoarded home you drive by and it's kind of obvious in ways so it's like how did like no one know or like if they know like they just didn't ignore like care and like that's like to the point of like like I have like a lot of like looking back and it's like yes my parents failed us but there was like so many like layers of adults who could have done something differently to like intervene and like there's so many people that like make excuses for them because they see that like that one side it's like oh well they're so kind to me like and my dad is an addictions counselor it's like he's helped me get clean like okay congratulations and like I I believe that's amazing but like multiple like people like can really exist especially when we're dealing with a narcissist and also like that is in ways I viewed like a cover up for him like he knows that he looks like a good person doing that I believe that's why he does that from my perspective so it's like these people that would try to like downplay my story ever since I spoke up it's always just based off their minimal interaction with him but of course he was my 24/7 for my whole entire childhood and I would say like anyone who's dealt with him for a long time has like seen the mask slip per se like he's a click to anger person he's quick to throw insults if he feels like he's you know being like a tattooed to like in any type of negative way like he will throw back and like that's even as young as I can remember as a kid like he didn't spare his children from that and like so he was willing to do that with any and everyone and people over time definitely would learn but that was also something I experienced was like losing friends and relationships which I already had very minimal of because my father would do like bad business with people with like the puppies because he was like doing fraudulent sales he was always like lying saying they were registered but like my father would go to like Amish County, Pennsylvania where there's a lot of puppy mills would buy like whole litters of puppies for like 200 something dollars whatever it was back then and then would flip them for more money register them. So they were breeding or were they breeding or just selling the puppies? They were breeding but then at times where like I guess he wasn't producing as much as one and two and people were coming to him for puppies he would then go and like buy a whole litter okay and then they usually weren't registered 8kc so then my dad would fraudulently register them under dogs he did have but that didn't have litters okay and then like 8kc has like a one liter a year rule so like he would always do stuff to like skate around that and like just like wild things like that but like people over the years definitely have like Called him out and like said things, but like no one's ever really like gone as far as to like I don't know Report and yeah, and I mean maybe he had like animal control was also like a common thing throughout my life like we Would know like I don't know sometimes it felt like my father would know because he'd be like hey animal controls coming like make sure all the Animals are hidden like we would be instructed to like make sure the dogs were in the house so they didn't get in trouble and XYZ so it's just like Interesting because it's I feel like who he is is so obvious but Ever since I came forward like a lot of people in my hometown have defended him And I truthfully thought that was where I get like the most support because people have seen him Right, or like they would feel you would think they would feel for the children Yeah, they don't and how many of the of how many children are there and I'm the youngest And I have two older siblings one by five years and then one by like only 14 months Okay, and like growing up in that home like we were close in a lot of ways But yeah, like everyone saw like I would say honestly like I got the least bullied but only because I feel like like as a girl I had way more access to like seeing other like girls like Doing stuff like personal hygiene stuff that I didn't know about at home like it was easier for me to like be taught that stuff And probably less shame than like my siblings like having to like learn that like they never I don't think ever got Anyone to sit them down and be like this is how you deal with proper like hygiene like even like growing up We never like I don't ever remember like getting taught to brush our teeth Anything really that you do like when I got like my time of the month my period I Had no help in that department luckily I'd had like Health class that did teach me like some stuff But like I had to deal with that all on my own did you go to your mom about it when you got your period? No, I don't think I did like they that was also like it was interesting with my parents It's like I felt so enmeshed with them growing up I like and obviously like you do love your parents and like I will say yes my parents are really messed up but like You always have your parents like it's complex, but like I look back and I'm like I don't really like understand How I felt that way growing up I mean, it's part of like I think surviving in the moment being like I love them like I feel okay But now looking back like I was like an emotional dumping ground like I want to never really go to them with things especially I feel like with my mother She would come to me and I knew even if I told her stuff it would immediately turn into like stuff about her Which obviously like as a child I was like okay this This is going nowhere like it was just never a safe space to like speak up either and like I would say like I like my mom would be like oh like don't tell your dad like we always kind of knew my father was like Quick to trigger so like all the time she would tell me like don't tell your dad this don't tell your dad that But then vice versa if I did something she knew my dad wanted to prove of She wouldn't tell him until she felt like she was upset with me and then she'd be like hey summer did Because then she would know like it would like she pretty much like weaponized my narcissist father in a way to be like Hey like when my children have said it me I'm going to like use these things to then make them like Feel punished by it so like I kind of just never felt like even like the simplest of things were safe in that way so I Hit it in a lot of ways and then even aside from that there was just so much shame in like wanting anything from our parents because of The state of the home and like yeah, I guess like people are he's like well, that's poverty and I'm like no hoarding isn't exactly poverty like I grew up and I've been friends with a lot of people in the same like Money class is my parents and the state of the home Yeah Nothing like that like it has everything to like do with like their choices to like live like that and People don't seem to understand that it's With like obviously money plays a part but in my like parents like situation. It's only like Like this much like they chose so many times to like Put many other things over you know dealing with the hoarding not bringing like more stuff into the home I guess and would you say that over time that got progressively worse? Yeah, so honestly like like brief timeline is like from how I remember it is elementary school age It was kind of bad, but I don't ever remember my home like my home My room like being affected by their hoarding like my room was still like Organized and even back then like I remember like it being like our parents were like my mom more so like was like Struck like make sure you clean your room as like chores and like you know normal see in that way but by the end of that so I lived there from I'd say like kindergarten first grade until like fourth or fifth grade So by the end of like my fourth or fifth grade it was like completely destroyed and by the hoarding inside and out and then That's where we like first got horses, but they weren't like it's kind of hard to hoard horses And so the outside but they just compile like a bunch of stuff out front yeah like trash like my dad's thing growing up Was like anytime he drove past something on the side of the road someone's trash yard sale someone selling something He would pull over like he had like I guess it is like part of the hoarding I realized that's what it is, but like he would always do that and like sometimes I'd like be on the car with him Be like can we not like and it was a fight so it's like you knew not to like be like yeah I don't want to add more things like there was no rationalizing with it being like we don't need this right or like You know we already have whatever of this like he always Found a way and like that's also like looking back why I think he is majority of like the hoarding issues I would say like my mom maybe has like a shopping Addiction in ways like in her way of like coping with stuff is like going out going shopping pretending normal sea But then obviously brings more stuff back into like yeah, and I think too the the hard part is I think people are very quick to judge But you never know what somebody else is feeling or thinking you know like even with it being a relationship But dynamic between your mom and your dad There could be a chance too that she just you know loved him and was just kind of adjusting to how he was and I'm sure like you said over time It does rub off, but I feel like at the same time you kind of just accept your circumstances in a way and Yeah, that's what like I do feel like she definitely found her ways to cope with it and like in way is like I'm like that's fair But then when you involve the kids then where I'm like All right like now and even just It's not even exactly the experience all the time that affects me. It's like the lack of accountability like No like any Chance even like the most graceful bid for accountability is like Not well. So it's like they don't really be like understand, but it's like There I mean if that's their lifestyle too and they don't really they're not aware of I guess what it is doing to those around them you know and that being their children Yeah, then they can't really take accountability for it. Yeah, and like in ways it's like hard because it's early early on Like and my father's favorite line is like this is just farm life. This is just a farmhouse and it's like I grew up with many other horse riding friends. It's my second mom growing up Had her own farm. I spent a lot of time there and like never once was her house in like The state of my parents home. So it's it's interesting that like he just always like found ways to justify it too As if it was ever brought up in any capacity. So it's like the early on stuff like honestly like I don't know like If it emotionally like I don't remember it. So like who knows, but like I know cps and difus was involved at that point like in elementary school time period But then we I remember moving really specifically because like My siblings and I had so much hope when we were moving that the conditions What you know like we're moving into a new home like fresh start like everything will be great and like I don't even honestly remember but it quickly went from like a very new like five bedroom home to like what it is today What I posted online like like it looks like people tell me like all the time, like that looks like an abandoned house. (upbeat music) As the day wraps up, get this scoop on what's been happening with Here's the Scoop, a new podcast from NBC News with me, your host, Gazzin' Nisugin. We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News' trusted journalists. 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But like when we moved in, everything was kind of like normal for a bit, and that's kind of the progression of it is, it was normalcy, appliances were working, like everything in the house normal as it would be, like in every other house, and then slowly the dirt starts piling up, slowly they start gathering things, they don't have room for, and then it usually, if it like keeps progressing, gets to a point where your plumbing is affected, the electricity is affected, and because of like the animal hoarding also in my situation, there was rooms in my home that had carpet that like now are like literally a black mold from 20 plus years of like uncleaned, like animal urine and feces. And like truthfully like growing up, like that was just like my normal, I subscribe to it like until I left. And now it's like one of those things looking back that is like the biggest thing that affects me is like realizing like how much I don't, like with in like terms of the environment by the end of it all, and like, and also it's like it's still how my parents live, and they still like can't see it, like it's right in front of them, - True, it's sad. - It gets to that point, and like it just like hard even like see how it got there, because like when we moved in, it was a fresh clean start, and by like the end I think of like middle school age, Diffus and CPS was a common occurrence in my life, they were in and out. - Do you think the school was calling and reporting? - Yeah, I think in like small town, our teachers, like in my fourth grade I know a teacher called because it was like the one and only time a teacher pulled me in my siblings aside. And this is like I don't remember like too much of this, so it's also kind of why my story is a little crazy everywhere, but I don't remember like losing electricity as far back as elementary school, but I remember my like the experience of my fourth grade teacher pulling me and my sibling out of class, and asking us like, and he, I remember he dealt with it really well. I don't remember the exact like things he said it was so long ago, but he pretty much like prefaced it really well, and also I was very prone to not wanting to lie, so we kind of like put it in a way where it was like I just had to say yes or no. And he's like I drove by, 'cause like small town like he's like, I have to write your house every day, like driving to school for work, and I've just happened to notice like there's never any lights on, and like you know early morning, I guess it's like dark out when teachers go to school, so he's like, I just wanted to ask like, do you happen to not like have electricity at home? And like, I remember my brother like not wanting to like say anything, but like I was like, yeah. And I know that that obviously like ended up in a report, and like Diffis definitely was involved, but like that's also like the crazy part about my childhood is like so much good and bad is like taken out by like those like traumatic periods. Like I know that Diffis and CPS got involved, but like I don't remember like any of the stuff after. And then from then on, like I know in middle school, like they had to have been calling a lot because at that point, like it was very normal for us to go into school with unclean clothes, and like this is disgusting, but like we, I know I would not shower or be able to shower for like weeks on end, and like as a girl with really thick hair, that was very hard for me as a child, but also I know my siblings, might have even been worse in their case. Like so there was obviously like thinking back, I'm like I can understand why kids bullied us in like in a way, because I understand the natural instinct that it's like this is really weird. I really can't understand why a kid would come to school like this. Like no child has the knowledge to be like, the kid isn't choosing to do this. Like it's stuff at home, etc. Like they just thought we were gross and like choosing to live like that, and like that wasn't the truth. - Yeah, they don't know the depth of it, I thought it. - And I remember like not too much specific stuff, but like the bullying was really bad at that time period. Me and my siblings like were no, like people would just like call us like dirty, like talk about like how we stink like Kappy, like all of the time, like it was kind of commonplace. And I was like I'll be honest out of like my siblings and I think I was affected the least by it. Like I definitely had a way of like because I was so focused on getting out of there with school. I'm like this isn't going to be my life all of the time. Like I know that I'll choose differently. Like when I'm out of this, like they won't know me that, like you know, like I really did try to like focus forward. But I'm like looking back, like what actually affects me more. Like, oh wow, I always give a side of all this stuff and I just like take your time. - Oh, I just get like so upset. Like how like hard my parents failed them because of like witnessing like how much the bullying affected them at the time and like all this stuff they had to like go through, like I feel like it was worse for them. Like in general, like being a child of hoarders, like the main thing like everyone I've ever like met says is like it's very isolating. Like you have no friends, X, Y, C, but like I definitely was able to like find something outside of it that like gave me like a reference to normal and like my brother did in and like, I don't know, that hurts me a lot because just like now was an adult looking back. It's like I would never treat my children that way. Like like they like now looking back because I also was identified to them even though I was the youngest. Like I feel bad. I wish I did more in this situation even though it's like - How much can you get? - What could I have done and like especially like in the middle school time period, like I just always was very mature for my age. Like everyone always told me that like, oh you have an old soul like, okay, cool, but like it's just because I very much was an observant like hyper vigilant like type of person. Like I noticed everything and like growing up with a narcissist father like that's very quick to like changes behaviors like I very much was always like like focused on like conversations and people and things like that and like a way that I feel like other people didn't like always been able to like spot a controlling man from a mile away. Like I'll say thanks to my dad for that at least, but like other than that. Like I felt like school like it was hard for me to like confront people, but I did the best I could. Like I was so like sure because of everything I went through and it felt like that was also like a big part of my childhood. Like it felt like my responsibility all the time and there was like definitely like ways my parents made me like fill that role like kind of like prep me to be that way. So it's like when my siblings were getting bullied. I was the one going to like the principal's office and being like please do something like it was this this that and the third person like it wasn't my parents doing that like it was me like I didn't want that and like. Also like even looking back like I hated it, but like I don't think like I ever went to like go and be like this is for me like I don't want to be bullied anymore like it was always out of like concern for my siblings and like it's my cause like my parents be right history. It's like oh we did everything like we went to the school and it's like no like I was the one like and that's also like something like I believe my parents probably were worried about it as like when I was a kid, but I was so emotional I would go to school and cry all of the time and like I didn't have words for the situation I was going through. I didn't know what to call it at the time, but like I was always going to school and being really emotional and even like aside from the hoarding like my parents would fight all of the time and like that really like emotionally effective me. So like I'd go to school and I cry about that and it's like my teacher is especially at that point like really loved me and like tried to like take care of me and and I definitely I don't remember, but I know that I probably was like going to school. and like divulging a lot. And that was like a period where like CPS and stuff was like in and out of our life. And it definitely had to do with like me having a little bit to open up a mouth, which sorry, that's sorry. But and then along with like the bullying mate. And that's also like funny. It's like my parents will say like they've said like, oh, evil kids and like the school didn't deal with it well. But it's like that's totally like glossing over why were people bullying your kids so hard? Like yes, bullies can be bad for like no reason for sure. Like happens all the time. But any like rational adult like or parent would like to do the critical thinking to be like if I changed our living situation. Our kids would probably not be getting bullied anymore for it. So it's just like funny that they blame everything else like for the situation. But it's like everything else before that led to it. Like yes, I have some bullies that I can you know, probably hold animosity for forever. But like I actually look back now as an adult. And I'm like I have more grace because it's like how were children at that age, especially like elementary school middle school supposed to know what we were going through. They didn't. So like it's not really something that's talked about. You know, even like I was in a like pretty like my school honestly had a very good education program. Like we had really good like health visit. Like we talked about all the different types of abuse. But at that time I was like I'm not going through any of that. And really it was like like torturing like I didn't know the words for it. But even now looking back like hoarders in general like so many boundaries that you do like face. Abuse in pretty much every realm because they just don't have any boundaries with their children. They don't really I guess know to set them. I don't know like it. It's just interesting because and also I don't even know how like I have gotten to be such like a rational person. And like maybe education I guess. But like it's just interesting that like I'm the polar opposite of like how they understand everything. And I feel like from their perspective I flipped a switch like and one and I feel like a lot of like a strange parents or parents who lose contact like it's one day my child flipped a switch. But that like actually like leads into like after middle school high school period was like the worst time of my life. I don't remember it much but the bullying was bad and like pretty much like I couldn't go through a day of school without like praying like for it to be over like it was horrible but it was actually like the home life at the time that was even worse. And then who anytime obviously our home life was worse, the bullying was worse because like the conditions we would show up to school and would be worse. And at that point I would say like high school age that's like when the hoarding progressed to like the extreme which is like starts off with clutter then it gets to like you know the room started to not like all be usable filled with things. But like before I school like I would say like our rooms at least my siblings and I were like still ours maybe cluttered because like we didn't have we didn't know like we were never were taught cloning this routine. So like we did try even as children in our own rooms but we didn't have access to much like we didn't even have a trash can in our home at most times like trash bags like not even are like main form of trash bags a lot of times were like the dog food bags like after they would like take out all the dog food they would use that empty bag. And this is actually something super gross but by that point I believe this is like like I now look back and I'm like wow like I just like I mean this is it was gross to me in general but I now look back and I'm like wow that's like an extreme level of hoarding by that point with the animals even when we like what have dog food like easily available we had this like rubber made like trash can in our house that's not like trash can we would have not for trash. And my father would like make us like whenever we would clean out like the fridge freezer and like get rid of like old food he'd make us dump it in there and that is what we would feed to the dogs. Wow yeah and like even like they were and I'm sure that made them sick. Honestly looking back because like I ended up working as a vet tech leader in life and like obviously like you learned and I'm like all of these things dogs are and like I'm so anal like with my own dogs and some nowadays that I'm like how do I like and honestly like yeah I also like dealt with like a lot of animal death like an animal hoarding is just common place like there's so many animals and but it's actually just insane to me that like animals weren't like I guess but I guess it also is like an adjustment thing because I know my dog would shit herself you know like if I was giving her stuff like that I mean because like it's I mean you know how it is with you know we've been changing their food and it's like new thing so it's like my dog ate like three twizzlers one day and I had to like pay to like take her to the vet and it was like thousands of like you know so it's like meanwhile like I do look back and like I'm like how like I don't know but I do believe like the like I call it like the sludge bin so that's probably why I'm referred to it like that like started I do believe out of necessity because in a way not I was going to say it kind of makes me think of like a way to prevent wasting yeah and I do believe at that point like we did have like periods of like starvation like my and like that is like my parents were bad with money but even looking back like my father made good money and at times it's like I also think that was like part of the hoarding is like constantly like being impulsive and spending money where it didn't need to be spent and so was the starvation happening because they didn't have money to get like they wouldn't like my they were B times where like we wouldn't have food my mom would be like eat leftovers the leftovers in the fridge would be like you know old moldy leftovers and so like I should say is by this point with the hoarding and this is like commonplace once you get to like there's like five stages I think commonly referred to stage like one and two is like clutter you're starting to like kind of like hoard items and it's obviously like affecting your life then like three and fours where it starts like taking over rooms like really like affecting the household and then like especially when animal hoardings involved that's like where it starts like really getting dirty and then like four and five is like you lose like utilities etc. and then the worst thing of all is bugs and rodents and that is like the biggest trauma from my childhood is cockroaches and they were everywhere by that point so it's also like the food we did have access to even when we were starving was not exactly like yeah I want to eat that yeah so it was also like a thing of like hey like you're starving but your only options are that and honestly that's definitely what I like the biggest things that has affected me like long-term mentally like I didn't realize it at the time but like still to this day like struggle with eating like I have OCD and one of like my intrusive thoughts is like having bugs in my food even when I'm like clearly I don't live in that house anymore it's very not likely but it sticks with you yeah like it's very like I wouldn't have realized it at the time obviously because it is your life but like all of those like instances like gradually turned into like little mini like trauma triggers and like that was definitely like the biggest one is like we were starving but all we had was you know food with a little rotten food whatever it was like I know probably like I don't remember too vivid but there's probably a point where I tried to eat dog food I was like this is the only thing let me crunch on this but like it was mostly like once we got to that point like I like our parents wouldn't have money to like like we have to wait till next paycheck but then I also like remember at that point it's like they'd have no money but then they'd have money for other things it's like that's what I was gonna ask you never like looking back like especially now it's like that's where like a lot of the things change like in the perspective change because I'm like as a dog I don't get it like like when you guys weren't eating were they not eating as well or they were still this is definitely like a weird trauma with like me and my siblings my parents wouldn't have food at home and still to this like they eat out all of the time like they constantly go to diners they constantly like get takeout food and like also that definitely comes with like when you get to late stay torting appliances sometimes stop working like the ovens microwaves are filled with cockroaches like it's a very not fun state so like that's also probably why but a lot of like my childhood my parents would like wake us up for breakfast and if you didn't like get up to like go with them you didn't eat and And I would always, like I was very much like an early bird as a kid. And I would say like growing up, I was definitely the more enmeshed one with my parents. Like and in ways like looking back, I think I knew like how to stay safe with my father was to really just like play into what he wanted. And like because he was a narcissist, like he really loved like, oh, you get good grades. And like the horseback stuff, like all of that really like stemmed from like his need to have like a perfect child to like put on a pedestal. But like he never really like, like they just didn't understand, but like they like it's hard to be like, you didn't understand, but at the same time, you were like placing like building blocks like to like alienate like us as siblings against each other. Like I don't know if it was purposeful, but like it stemmed from like things like that where it's like I did get good grades and thrived in that capacity. Like even though like we were living like literal hell at home, but like my siblings rightfully struggled, but my parents pretty much also bullied them at home for that. Like called them names, things like that. And that was like another thing. Like they would wake us up in the morning and they'd be like, oh, your brothers are like lazy. They don't want to like get up and go. Like you're the only one. And like I would even like be at breakfast and be like, shouldn't we bring them back food? Cause like even back then I was like, well, they're not gonna have food to eat. Like they'll be upset, but like they did it. And like little things like that, I think back. And I'm just like even if like, like I don't know, like it's just like as a parent, even aside from like the hoarding, like how could you not be like at the very least? Let me bring my children back like a clean safe. - It's a deal. Like especially if I'm doing that. And then it's like funny, cause it's like you're doing that I guess cause there's no groceries at home. But also you're spending a lot of money eating out all of the time. And like as kids, like we definitely picked up on that kind of stuff, but we also then knew it was not to be discussed. Like it was not to be brought up. And if it was, it would be a fight that wouldn't really like, like there was not really winning fights back then, especially like with my father. He would just purposefully try to like make you feel guilty, make you feel bad. And like it was always funny that like he would like say, like we put a roof over your head and we paid bills because I definitely got to a point in my later sassy teenage years where I was like, what do you mean? Like, hello. - How long did you guys go without electricity and plumbing? - Honestly, it's hard for me to remember the exact time periods. And it's like I know it happened when I was younger, but I don't super remember that clear. But then in high school, actually the longest periods were my junior and senior year. And I honestly don't remember that time much. I have like photos from that time, like living in the home. And it's probably like one of the worst states it's been in except for like current day. My parents living there. But at that time, like it was off for a while. And like it had been on and off before that, but the reason it got shut off for a long time is actually something crazy. Which like some people were like, wow, he loves his kids and he did that, but like looking back and like, no, that's crazy. My father around that time period, like because he couldn't pay his bills or who knows? Maybe he just didn't want to pay them. I don't know. He would go to abandoned houses and steal the electric meter off of it. And then because we lived off like a lane, whenever people would come to read the electric meter, which is like I learned like how, you know, they come up with your bill, he would switch the abandoned meter on. And then like our electric bill was like lower. And he had like done that I guess for a long time. And also I guess like he was smart enough to do that. So like around my 10th, 11th grade year, he was stealing the electric meters off of houses, putting them on the house. And I guess like that would make the bill cheaper. But eventually I assumed the electric company caught on. And from what I remember, like he got arrested, I think. And like was put in jail for that. And pretty sure that's a felony. I don't know. Don't quote me on that. But he did get arrested for that. And then after that, because of that, they stopped servicing electric to our house completely. And honestly looking back, I don't think that was technically ethical of them. Like still, my parents did really messed up things obviously. But it was like the dead of winter from what I remember. Like I think, like if I can remember well, like it was probably like around like January, December, time frame, maybe a bit before. So like it was cold, like freezing cold at night. And we obviously now lived in a house, like a five bedroom house with no heat, no AC, like anything like throughout like the time with no electricity. And that was honestly the worst period of my life. At some point, like I know like Difus or CPS got involved. And that was when I was finally removed from the home. I don't know like technically what it would be considered. But I was like ordered to live outside of the home while my parents like cleaned up the house. And how would we? I was 16 or 17. Like I know it sucked because I'm the youngest. And I was just under like 18, so like 16 or 17. So I had to be removed. But my siblings were allowed to stay in the home as long as like because they were consenting adults at that point. And they decided to stay. Yeah, it was definitely part of the mesh. And I mean also at that point, like it's also kind of like part of like narcissism control. Like we weren't allowed to have jobs. It's not like we were able to like get ways to get out. And like that's also why it's like I definitely had the best feelings. I got out for education. But yeah, like I at the time like I was the youngest. So I was the only one ordered to live outside of the home. And that is also like kind of one of the periods of like bad mental health for me because it definitely like even though there was like levels of awareness of what was going on with my life. That really like made it obvious that I was very isolated from the life that I lived. Like I really, really had friends growing up. Like never had sleepovers. Like never really did anything quite normal because we couldn't have guests over to our house. And at that point I realized like that was like my life because I needed somewhere to stay or else I would get placed into a local foster home. And obviously like I didn't want that. So I was like who can I call? Like I really tend little to no one at the time. And I was dating someone at the time. And he was cheating on me and I was aware of that. But I was about to break up with him. But then that happened in my life. And I went and stayed with him. And honestly like don't remember that too much. But I ended up staying with him for I think it was like the rest of my junior year I think. I can remember very clearly. And at some point like I ended up back in the home. But I honestly couldn't tell you if that's because like CPS allowed it or if it's because I started going back on my own for whatever reason. But I started going back to the home. And then by my senior year it was still going on. And I still didn't have like a place to go. Me and the boyfriend weren't dating anymore. And my one sibling had found like a place to go that he had been staying at. My older sibling, like my eldest sibling I believe. I don't think he was at the home. Because I remember this period being very isolating. Like it was just me and my parents and like Gads Five Bedroom House but it had, it was very creepy. Like literally abandoned light because it was like no electricity, no running water, all of that. And I was going through it alone even though like, yeah. It's like I, me and my siblings really did like rely on each other in a lot of ways. So at that point I was very isolated. And because of like not having electricity. And I don't honestly remember at the point because it happened during cold and warm months. But in order to have access to like either an AC or heat, my parents would use like a generator and would just like plug it into like something in their window. So that that like singular room would be taking care of. Mind you looking back, kind of funny. They always chose their room and never chose their kids room for that. In that situation like rolls reversed. I would not be making that choice. So at that point I, and it wasn't even like they ordered me to sleep in the room. They just did that in the room and it's like, hey, if you want to come sleep in here on the floor or sofa like at different points it was different like things like feel free so at that point also with the animal hoarding being as bad as it was along with like cockroaches being a normal bug thing with the animal hoarding fleas for everywhere all of the time and like it's it's pretty bad when like they're to the point of biting humans because they don't usually like mess with like humans like even if you've had like a dog with fleas like minimally like yeah it's like a struggle to deal with but you don't usually notice it yourself much I'd say like unless it gets bad and because my parents had so many animals they and also they just never really honestly cared for them medically in any way in my opinion like besides basics like they had to like give them a rabies like vaccination so they want to get in trouble with like the township and that's literally all they would do so it's the fleas at that time were horrible so I remember and it's one of my OCD things now like I still struggle to sleep at night because I can just like sensory imagine it like it was just a trauma that always happened at night time and the fleas would be like biting your legs and like jump like you could just feel them because there were so many of them and I couldn't sleep and especially like when I guess it was like super cold and I had to sleep in my room they were even worse and pretty much at that period it was like a constant daily like go to school come home that was my like torture pretty much and mind you like junior years when you're taking your LSATs when you're applying and I did all of that stuff but I literally do not remember like I do not like I cannot recollect any of that because it was like during this like and it's it's funny it's like I remember a lot of the trauma but any of like the normal stuff that happened at school at that time it's not in the brain and so it's like I was going through all of that and mind you I got good grades all throughout high school like I rarely got below a sea and now even looking back I used to hate on myself for a season and I'm like I got seas living in like the conditions I lived in like nothing like yeah no more hate for a little summer like see his fine and because of like all of that like I literally would like I had a lot of pressure I had a lot of pressure like on myself like because of like wanting to get out of there but then also like my parents definitely put a lot of like pressure on me to fulfill that perfect role and I do think looking back that had a lot to do with like we look like good parents and maybe look like this isn't happening if like you're looking good to the public but I we didn't have electricity so like I would sit by candlelight and do my homework and we would have like computer related things I would stay after and I would like work at the computer lab at school to do that and then a canon thing my father would always forget to do is come pick us up if we were staying after school so like I would stay after school to do that all the time and then I would have to walk home because he would forget to come and get me and that was also like something I forgot to mention is like along with the electricity and like all the other utilities like our phones would constantly be shut off and that was like a big anxiety point for myself my siblings even like things I remember like with my mom like we'd be out and about and they like wouldn't have paid the bill and then like your phone would be shut off and it's like I'm literally stranded somewhere and I can't call anyone or use my phone and throughout school especially like I'd be like oh I need to call someone to pick me up or I'm sick at like whatever it was I would like go to call my parents even in emergency situations and I'm like oh can I'm like stranded and like that definitely causes like a lot of like turmoil long term but like at that point like that was so common and so like I would always stay after school have to walk home and then be doing my homework by candlelight I don't know crazy would never be meet like it's funny it's like it would never be me now I don't have that motivation anymore because I don't have you know the trauma and stuff behind it and and I think like you said you knew too it was like you kept looking ahead like already that was like pretty much my way of coping and I do think like it was like extremely forward thinking but it is like like it's probably why I'm so hypervigilant anxious now and all these things I deal with and that are issues for me but also it's like I talk about this in therapy all the time but it's like you know there's like each side of it it's like I'm also grateful because like I have to look back and be like that's what like little summer needed to like get through everything like survive it all like it was not easy for sure and like I really can't look back and remember it so it's like go down hurt like I did what I had to do back then to get through it all and it is crazy but at that like time like the electric being off like I was even like going to like school dances and stuff and that's like what I have the picture from I'll show you these are like what I've posted online that like have gotten a lot of traction but this is from 2010 so this is probably like a little bit before what I'm talking about now but it was my like sophomore year homecoming I think and that's like the living room in my parents house and yeah you can just like see all of like the trash like the marks in the carpet are like you know animal like things they never cleaned up and like that bird in the back like I know like back like she was so like along with everything else like neglect did she actually like passed away when I was in college because part of like the animal hoarding like my parents didn't manage the animals and one of the dogs killed the bird and that was like a common thing like brought my childhood with so many animals like it would accidentally kill each other and it was it was just very dramatic yeah and like looking back it it's just interesting because at that time you're like this is normal this is my normal I accept it like it is what it is but it's not like you can control your parents yeah yeah and then this is from my junior year homecoming the next year so like from when I'm talking about I'm pretty if I'm right on the timeline I do believe that's like a no electricity in the house picture you know it's so crazy though like it almost looks fake because like everyone says that to me they're like you Photoshop this no like in the sense of like like you're just this like glow in the center and it's just like it's crazy though yeah I think it's honestly it's probably linked to people I say I'm like it's probably just because of the weird lighting because I'm sure all we have no it's like I say it in like a way though that it's like it's a most interesting of like how you're just like this light out of like everything that was feeling like my parents did a lot of things wrong but like my name is not one of them like summer joy like I remember also even like growing up like I say I was so very forward thinking and it's because I kind of like made my name like it does look like I need to be like you know joyful and whatever all of the cat in the back yeah so the ears I'm glad you honestly not many people have noticed that I think even though I posted a lot I know I do but also a lot of people like noticed in the background of the photo like the peeling wallpaper there was a fire in my house at one point that my parents never repaired the like so it is all over like the house yeah and like that fireplace like during the period of no electricity like that was the main form of heat for the rest of the house like the animals would all literally be like piled by like the fireplace and yeah it's just like crazy to like even think that like and honestly like thinking back like these pictures I have it's like wild to think like I only really have proof of this because my parents didn't respect my wishes back then like I definitely knew enough and because we were bullied so much to be embarrassed of the photos and be like please don't post these online like in the background like and even the first photo I showed you that was after we cleaned like the floor like we pushed aside as much trash as we could like me and like I only had like my one close friend like all throughout school that like and she was fine coming over to my house like 21 listening if you've ever been a friend to a child like me like you're a blessing because like that's a lot of what yeah I'm sure you didn't feel as just saved my life like she came over always treated me like I was normal and like the stuff I showed you like she's the one who did my hair and makeup for homecoming like my mom didn't do that like she did all of that for me and it's just like interesting because people are like that's like crazy and I'm like it's not like even those pictures are not the worst of it because it's even my parents did try to make it a little better but then like that's even like what I think like shows like the like the dissonance for them like they really don't get it like it's such a thick layer of delusion I guess like I don't really know like how else to put it but I do think it's common with hoarding disorder like the shaman guilt of it like just in general like by nature makes it hard to face and then like when you get so deep in it it gets harder but like they never were like willing to like see it for what it was. And it's like crazy to me because they've been posting these, like those photos are from Facebook, like they're on Facebook. And I didn't want them posted, but then my mom would post them and tag me in them. And I'd be like, well, now I'm letting it bullied for this. Like, please don't. And it's just insane. 'Cause honestly, without the stuff my parents post, like I didn't have much like to be like, wow, like this was my, like I don't even have, and that's like another thing that like children of hoarders deal with is like lots of memories just in general. Like you don't get many normal, like childhood moments, like sleepovers, normal friendship type of things. But then you also just don't have many memories in general. Like I know there's probably a box of photos somewhere at my parents' house, but it's like there's not really much to look back on to be like this was my childhood. - Yeah. - And probably part of that comes with the nature of not really wanting to take photos of like the conditions we lived in, but at that point, it's like interesting. Like my parents, even still to this day, freely like posted online, like they don't seem to see behind it. Like they think it's like they really can't like see it. And it's like interesting. 'Cause like people, like what I've been validated through a lot with like sharing my story and like those pictures is like I thought sharing them one or two people might get it. Like I was just trauma dumping on the internet as people do and was just like using as an outlet. Like I've always been that like outwardly emotional like writing like whatever. So I was like sharing it and I didn't think it would resonate with people and then people were like immediately noticing the background and like noticing how bad it was. And even though sometimes people would probably be like, that is like completely horrible, which is like, you know, not something you want to say, but it's like that is validating to me in this situation because I like didn't remember it being that bad in ways. Like even when I started to kind of learn, like it was hard to conceptualize it and you block out so much that it's like, wow, I feel like really validated that like other people see it. Like for as bad as it really was. And like even so nice people like, they're like, you were like smelling ammonia and like all of these crazy fumes and like mold like for like however many plus years of your life. Like it's kind of insane like all of like the stuff that like even just health wise, like you have to put up within those situations, but like they pretend it's normal. So like and speaking of how I'm assuming you guys never did really like any doctor's. So that's definitely like the thing I wanted to do sure I did was, I like there was a few times, but not many. And then like something like I'll discuss like more and like the after effect is like when I finally went to like the eye doctor and the dentist and stuff, that was like a retrygaring point for like my trauma. Like it all like came like piling back up because it like made it so blatantly obvious like physically, like how much my parents neglected me. Like it was right in front of me because of that stuff. So yeah, like they never really took us like there was times where like I definitely was taken to the ER. And this is also something is like me and I know my other sibling did like we had migraines all of the time and I still get them, but as a child, I would get them weekly. And I get like the migraines with like a vision aura. So like I would lose my vision like weekly, like at school, I'd be like throwing up like all of this stuff and looking back, I'm like that was probably triggered a lot by the overwhelming smell of our house. Like the mo, the ammonia, like the stress of it all, that like you're always just internalizing like whatever it was 'cause yeah, now I get them, but nowhere near is bad. And it probably had a lot to do with like the condition and like that's even just something it's like another layer of like something they won't take responsibility for. Or like it's just hard to see how they don't because it's like very obvious, I feel like how you're harming your kids. And like I have OCD now and like one of my things is like, I can't imagine having a kid and not being constantly anxious that my own kid would be sick all of the time, you know, like with the conditions that we lived in. So yeah, they never really took us like yeah, there's probably a few times and my father loves to debate me about things. So I'll be like, we don't go to the doctor once. - Like, okay, congrats. Congratulations. But yeah, like rarely it's not like we were taken on like yearly well visits. And like part of me does wonder if that's like trying to avoid scrutiny, like trying to avoid it being obvious what we went through. And like there was points where like, like my dad is literally a therapist, he would think like would be like, we should probably do some therapy because of even like just stuff outside of the hoarding stuff, you would think your kid's getting so bullied, even if they don't accept it's because of them. - Yeah, you would think. - Maybe they need more help, but I like part of me is like, well, probably sending us to therapy would uncover other stuff. - Exactly. - Cause it is what it did for me in 20 plus whatever years later, which is interesting, but that's kind of how it usually works. I feel like I've seen like sense like talking about it, like feels like the later 20s to 30s, a lot of people who have like traumatic childhoods kind of have this like turnover where they start like, kind of experiencing stuff, but so at the, with the picture like that time period of my life to like go back to that is something I know I'm gonna have trouble talking about, but it is fine. Because we had no electricity and like I would need to like, choose like at night where to sleep, it was either like in my room freezing cold with like the fleas and like all of that stuff, or I could sleep in my parents room. And a common thing at that time, and I for the longest time like I've only like kind of recently realized like how unnormal this was. I think that just shows like how long it really takes for you to like deconstruct stuff because my parents would engage in like sexual intercourse and like all different kinds of things while I was sleeping in their room. And as a child like I would wake up to it or like whatever it was. And like I truly thought that that was normal like for them to do until I finally realized that that is obviously very abnormal. And I used to like excuse that the kid be like, oh, they probably just forgot I'm sleeping in here like X, Y, Z. Like I'm an adult and I can't even like do anything if I know my dog is in the room. Like there's no way like that and like it happened a lot for me at that time. Like there's no way you forget that your child is sleeping in the room. And then it just like goes a show even just like the lack of boundaries like overall with hoarders. It's like they truly like I don't know if they think it was okay. Like I don't know like from their perspective what it was. But like from me like I've learned and like like that's no contact like sexual assault. Like I did not consent to like being there for that. Experiencing that like and also that was like my first like exposure to like sex I did have a boyfriend before but I was a little misvirgin very like I wasn't that type. So it's like that was my exposure to that part of life. And that definitely is something that like still affects me to this day. And like it's just crazy to like think that like back then. And like it just kind of like shows like in general kind of how we deal with situations like that as kids. Like even aside from that I just laid there and felt like that was what I had to do. Like I had no choice. Like if I got up it would make my parents uncomfortable if I got up to leave. And it's like why at that point was my parents like comfortability like the most important thing. And like I can assure you like it was also the most important thing to that you know like we're sleeping in their room. They're having the like you know the only like exposure to electricity in the home with a generator like they only really like were concerned with themselves obviously. And like looking back that's definitely like something that's like solidified with me like kind of intent and like other things. And like there's just like so many choices there that like leads you to that like point. Like there's no way that that's a mistake. Like I've come to realize that like you don't choose to do that like time and time again. And like I think it's a mistake as a parent. And like that was like the worst time of my life which honestly like I blocked out for so long. Like I didn't really like process that. And like it's interesting because then it's also it's like it probably was then like not really fully like dealt with because right after that was when I was like you know then like having to be out of the home with CPS and everything. So it's like I had trauma after trauma. So there was like no processing that when then I'm now having to like deal with like CPS and DFS and all of that involvement. And I definitely didn't even know to call it anything at that time. So I didn't think it was abuse but it definitely was. And then like going from that like I like felt so like isolated because like I don't believe my brothers were living the whole, I don't honestly remember, but like that was obviously just in itself a very isolating experience, so like, that was like an isolating experience with like myself and like just my parents and like my siblings and I did kind of talk about things as a kid that I guess maybe we wouldn't discuss with our parents like, you know, we knew like save conversations to have with them, save conversations to have with like siblings and vice versa, so it's interesting, but like that's obviously something I knew would not be the thing to like talk about with them and then going on from that like my brothers were mostly like they honestly did like have like places to stay in stuff and I kind of felt like it was my role and job to like take care of our parent, like that was always kind of like something I felt was like I need to take care of my parents like I need to be here and so yeah like at that time like it pretty much was that over and over again for my whole entire junior year I think like whenever I was living with them, but yeah like I mean and like honestly it's like I just don't know what else to add about that point because like that's really all I remember is like the no electricity that was like a big trauma point I was removed and then my senior year like I honestly don't remember if it was like a removal again, but like I know that we were without electricity again, I don't know if Diffus was involved, but then I was like intermittently like staying like with the friend that like my sibling was like staying with just so I could get a shower like I have messages I found like way back on Facebook where I was literally like and it like broke my heart finding these because it's like it showed like clearly like how much I was just like he he like this is mine to do with I don't even have anyone to talk to my parents whatever, but like I was messaging my sibling at the time like please like and like but also it's like you feel like a burden as a child in this situation always like even when people are like nice and graceful enough to be like hey you can come shower or here's toilet treat like whatever it was because like that is like another thing like we didn't really have toilet trees growing up like not much like really even when we did get to like Bay they're take care of ourselves like we didn't really have access so it was just like we like we didn't have access to much so when I would ask for things like it was always preface like my siblings alike like like I don't want to feel like a burden and like you really don't have to like I feel like a lot of kids from like similar situations whether it's like hoarding or just neglect it's when you do finally maybe get people willing to offer help you're like like you really don't have to like it's okay like please don't and at that time I was like messaging my brother begging like but like please don't feel bad but like I haven't been able to shower or like I haven't been able to sleep and I think back and I'm like I probably wasn't able to sleep because of the stuff going on with my parents and I was like begging him like please can you ask like who you're staying with if I can just come stay for one night like yeah and like it's just like so wild to like think that like I probably was like six I was born in July so it's like I was always like kind of like delayed and like the years of school compared other people so I think I was 16 or 17 at the time and it's like I'm literally just like begging for a safe place to sleep and I just thought that was like normal like that I was being a burden and like yeah so like my sibling like obviously like he helped like they helped me like we were always were like that back then but like it's just like interesting to think that like I remember kind of staying there for a few days but like I felt like it's interesting to think that like I felt more uncomfortable there than I did at my home which obviously was like yeah living hell but it's like aside from like it's just honestly being odd because like when you go from like dirty to clean it's like this is all abnormal this feels weird like and when you're a child like me you're like I don't want to touch anything like like when you go to like friends houses so it's like it's weird but then also like aside from that like it was just odd to be like why do I feel like more safe at home but it's more of like that trauma thing it's like I feel safe there because it's like your trauma bond to like your home yeah like even though obviously it was not like a safe space and like that is like interesting to think back like I've always at least thinking about more than stuff but a lot of like since I've spoken up like people really do like villainize like children who speak up against their parents it's like they did everything for you they tried their best they're mentally ill like your heart like you know like I've gotten everything and like well even if your parents are mentally ill that does not fall on you yeah ever in any case it's like okay but like you making these excuses for them and saying this to me the child isn't and I do like do like yeah you know like and I think even if it's not purposeful because it's like I can see in ways like yes putting a cemental disorder like xyz but it's like there's so I think you see so many layers of they're of choosing to not get better yeah and I think you speaking up about it is more so to spread awareness not to bash your parents you know what I mean and in ways it's like I don't think people realize that sometimes you've tried everything like I have tried every way I could and even as a kid like we would try like to get our parents to like keep clean like I remember I had nights where like I would stay up all night and like clean as much of the house but even like then like that's a risk because then they get angry at you it's like I'm throwing out your things or I'm moving your things around they get pissed but like I would try to clean up and be like okay like please nobody make it dirty again and like it's very common like since I've spoken of like kids like us have that common rhetoric of like clean it up and then you just get to a point where it's like what's what's the point right like a lot of even children of hoarders even if like once they move out of the home they live in completely pristine conditions when they're living there like their own room eventually kind of turns to like it's like own mini version of like hoarding and a bit of that obviously comes from like some parts of like necessity it's like I would hoard my own clothes in my room because if not like they would get dirty like our laundry room like constantly flooded with water so then like the clothes would literally like mold to the floor because they were like wet and would like never get so it's like if you wanted your clothes to like stay with you like you had to be in like control of them and not let like other people like wash them like do anything so it's like you really had to like have control over your environment and then it's interesting because I have OCD and hoarding is considered like a compulsive disorder and I know that like hoarding can come from like grief someone dies and then you feel the need to like keep everything they've ever touched or like people sometimes like get like like a relation like with their thoughts to be like well if I get rid of this cup then my friend might die like you know like wild things like that that like are intrusive like not normal thoughts but like I can see how that like happens but like even with my parents I'm like I truly don't understand the root cause of like it except for just a need to control and then what's interesting is a lot of children of hoarders develop OCD and that's like what I have and it's interesting because our parents might have but it's like it's just a continuation of the cycle and like opposite ends of the extreme like there's people who come from hoarders like with animal hoarding who now can't own animals at all because they think they're dirty or even if they don't they're like they're so triggering to me like I can't even just deal with cleaning up a normal dog mass like it's just not like working for them but it's then there's like the OCD where it's like and honestly like OCD is usually unfortunately stereotype is like just a super clean disorder but that's not a lot of what it is it's both ends but like a lot of people who come from like children of hoarders I would say or maybe what can go into that like subtype of OCD of needing to be really clean or else you feel like you don't have control over your life because that is kind of what I did as a child is like I didn't necessarily have a super clean room but there was things that like I obsessed about that I needed to have control over and that was kind of how I made myself feel safe as a child like I and it was also just like an internal thing like I was constantly like that was also like my thinking forward thing I was constantly escaping in my own head with like made up scenarios and like that was all OCD but like it helped me at the time but it's just like interesting it's like they may have OCD or some type of intrusive thought disorder but then they typically then cause that for their own kids like in a continuation of the cycle and like just in a different way opposite end of the stream and also like it is also common for children of quarters to also struggle too so it's like I know I did like with like certain types of like hoarding things because even just in general even if it's not hoarding hoarding hoarding once you leave like it's hard to learn a cleaning routine etc like you're basically teaching yourself Yeah, and it's pretty much like readalting so like honestly like senior year like the part I don't remember obviously like I got into college at one point. I don't remember I only applied to one university same state or different same state and I Definitely had dreams of wanting to go far away. I feel like a lot of people in similar situations are like get me up here like in farways possible But at that time I was still like writing horses I don't know if you know, but I wrote horses all like growing up and like that was like something I like So like when I left for college like horses were still at my parents like I still felt very Responsible or it's like I felt like I couldn't go too far in a way So we were living at home or on campus. I lived on campus my freshman year and That was like the wildest obviously experience for someone like me and actually what's like crazy interesting is like I also think like a lot of like What's weird is like the fact we didn't talk about things with like me being removed is like That really all moved fast like junior year. I was removed senior year. There was like chaos I definitely was living out of the home I don't remember if I was technically removed or not but like CPS was definitely involved and then like I got into college And then I got into like a pre-college program. So then right after I graduated high school like the day or two after I like went to college for like the summer pre-college program and it's like I got into something that like gave me like if I did that I got extra money like for college It's like coming from where I came from like I was very broke like and that's also like why I didn't go far I knew I wouldn't have like all the money Yeah, like cover like all of that like so I was like alright Like I'm gonna go here like it was the best option for me and like I only applied to one place because I knew like I wouldn't afford other stuff or I would just like go to community college But I still had like my parents probably didn't realize but like I knew at the time like I was leaving no matter what like even if I didn't get into school I was going somewhere. Yeah, like I was staying somewhere else But then like the one thing I do remember about getting into college is like it was upsetting because Even though I was the youngest I felt so much responsibility for the home for my like siblings like the animals everything that was involved that I was so upset that like I was having to leave them behind to deal with everything and like it definitely in ways probably hit like slowly then like the realizations probably started of like I'm leaving all of this behind which means I have to like face what it is, you know and then Honestly, like that was like a great part of my life like Being getting parts of college like the college program was like amazing and then when I started college I had like great roommates and Like everything like that, but that was also kind of you know where I started to kind of get those realizations Where it's like of course I knew before that like my life was not normal how we lived was not normal And it's like I knew like you know this really like I need to get out of here. I'm unsafe but that kind of led to a lot of like unavoidable like Realizations of like just specific like little niche things about like cleanliness and whatever like Sorry to all of my old roommates, but like I probably wasn't the best roommate at first because I was literally learning And like it's shown to Ben a college roommates like job to like teach me how to do chores But like I truly didn't know how to do anything back then and like Back then like YouTube videos were my bread and butter and I would like binge watch like cleaning like Routine and like that was like how I learned and even honestly growing up like YouTube you like just anything like thankful for the internet like in the childhood I had and even having the access when I did Because we didn't always have electricity, but like When I did like I was always like trying to learn things about like the world that I like knew I didn't know and like Then when I left it was like you know takes away the shame of it of like having to go up to someone and be like hey I don't know how to use a tampon or like whatever it is, you know like it's really like Things you should know when you're 20 something in college and it's shameful to ask and that's like also why I speak up. It's like People should know like if you do like even in like the high school times like if you see like people that struggle with this stuff It's definitely like I would never assume it's purposeful, you know I know and you should have some grace Yeah, it's like you never know What someone's stealing with or going through in their own life for at home, you know no matter what age it is And I feel like you know we live in a very detrimental society Unfortunately at times and you know if you're getting a question like that I think the best that like obviously Immediately as a human if that's not your normal you're gonna have like immediate concern. Yeah or some like red flags It's just comfort like that's where it's like the parents in a way benefit because like as a child like You naturally do want to cover for your parents and then also like you're feeling the shame and embarrassment Even though of course in like the grander scheme of things. It's not yours like the child is bearing the front of it in the moment When whoever is asking them like hey like did you shower before school like today like whatever it is like the little like moments like that Like it like really highlights to the kid that like they're not normal So like that is like I always like wonder it's like me and my siblings had to go through that a lot and felt so much like anxiety like that's definitely a lot of where my mental health issues come from is like that instability of like CPS that like all the ins and outs and like having to deal with it is like did they ever feel that like the anxiety Like that I'm going to lose my kids like because for me it's like hard to conceptualize if they did because I never really saw much You never felt it. Yeah, like I never felt like the effort to change and like that's something I've always said It's like even when like I've talked to my parents. It's like I understand you love me. You love me the best way you know how but I'm not sure how to make you see or accept that like Your love has always been very conditional and that makes your child feel very like yeah Loved like no matter if you love them or not like you made your love have conditions like that comes you know with a cost to like your child. Yeah Yeah, like I don't think they Like it is hard like I don't think like will ever get it but like At that point of my life like leaving for college and everything like It was interesting because I knew I was pulling away, but I didn't like obviously like I knew why like Because of like the home life I knew I was unsafe there and then once I got to college I'm like You know, they're complaining about these college beds like I love this little rinky dinky college mattress like And like even then like that was like the first instances of like I really wanted to prove to myself I wouldn't be like them, but it's so easy to not live like that and like yeah Like I'll be the first to say like I'm not the cleanest person and as a child of quarters like I can have some like obsessive things that I need to deal with but like Once I've got to college like my room Clean like did I have like certain issues and whatever? Yes, but like that was something I immediately was like I need to have a really clean room and then This is also like something like a big anxiety like with the cockroaches growing up and that a lot of like children of Portters relate to is when I went to college I was so nervous about bringing them with me Yeah, bring much stuff with you like and then also like the dissonance of like this happened all the time with like your parents would say things And it's like well, I know I'm not allowed to confront you with the reality But I'm trying to say no because like my mom would be like oh bring this with you to college and it's like electronics Straight no-no like when it comes to cockroaches like you're just bringing home like so it's like anything like that Like she's like oh you have a laptop. Why do you need to buy a new one for college? And it's like Well, like it's I need a new one you know like and just like random things like that where it's like How do you not like get it like you know? Yeah, and That was like a big stress like then and even just like all throughout our lives like we bring them to school Like we get made fun of like you would see like I had anxiety all the time growing up of like seeing a cockroach like Coral of my backpack and like trying to squish it. So like people didn't see it and like make fun of me for it and it's like Me and cockroaches have like beef. Sorry to them You know, I can imagine it's like it's such a like you said that kind of goes back to the shame and the embarrassment of it You know, it's like we felt it like and I like my father had a job But it's like I'm sure especially with his narcissist self like he was probably stopping at a rest stop on the way to work Showering himself real quick like he I like I sure you was not Dealing with similar things and even like some of blowback when I've spoken up against him is like I worked with him He's so great and it's like well then that's kind of crazy Yeah, right anyone who's like been in contact with myself or my siblings throughout like our school time Would be able to tell you unfortunately like so much about our life because it was so obvious like Like and it's like yeah, I tell my story, but it's like so much of this is probably known by everyone in my hometown because it was so like Out there blaring in like small town like it's like wild to think that like they really like I don't know like it's so wild that like my parents never like I don't know I'm like is nobody like tell me to them about this like because I'm like is my like apparently I guess maybe his co-workers thought he was normal and he was probably like showing up his best self there like was nobody ever because like I always say like I can imagine a bajillion times like myself and my siblings were getting bullied and like handling like the shame and guilt of things like with the backyard reading like my father would do he would sometimes like self-rogellant stuff like of course and then people would be mad at him would be messaging him on Facebook he'd block them so then they'd start messaging like me or my siblings about it in order to like get to him through us and like that's also even something we got bullied for at school because you know he'd like sell to someone in our school and then like that was also even something where it's like as a boundary like it just never made sense like you were getting bullied so horribly but then like people would like come in five puppies from my father that were bullying us like their family would and then also sometimes like they would come by a puppy see the condition of our home even though like at that time like my father would like make that room like them most presentable room is a house for people and even then it's still it's the room I showed you like with the picture with the dress like the more like flowy one yeah like that is the room he like would have the puppies in and like show them to people they'd buy it and then people would use that as like ammunition to like bully us over at school like over whatever they saw and like the home which is like it's terrible and saying but like it's just interesting it's like how do you not see like is no one talking to them and then like I mentioned a little bit earlier like my father ran for like some political thing like at some point after I leave for college and it's like did no one say like we shouldn't like like no one said hey let's not support this guy when it's very obvious he's like neglected his children and animals for like 15 to 20 years like kind of insane and yeah so like from then on like I feel like like when I left for college like that was like the stuff that would like slowly pile into me because it's like the cockroaches was always a thing but then when I really left it was like really a thing like packing for college like I really realized I can't take anything like really any much with me I couldn't even like do laundry when I left for college like I had like like hampers to then go and do them at school because like we didn't have a working washer and dryer at the time and like all of that and it was like insane like I honestly am like I do look back and like I've asked some friends and like was it obvious and like I do think in ways like I don't know if it's like I want to say I covered for it well or if it's like I finally just got to be like who I wanted to be aside from it that like people like unless I talked about it people were like this is where you come from but like I really like I will say like I am lucky in how I adjusted even though I know it was like extremely difficult for me like I know it's not common like for people from my situation but honestly like I'll say like at the beginning part was actually like a lot of realizations but then like easier it's like once they started kind of like hitting and then I had to keep like experiencing my parents that's I think what made it like extremely difficult was like okay freshman year I'm realizing like there would just be really little things that obviously just like I can't really think of anything because it's just so many little things about cleanliness and whatever that I learned like the whole first year of college and and even just like I'll say like I'm lucky that I found good friends because like I grew up with like none and like honestly probably didn't have the best social skills at the time like whatever like I'm lucky that like I found friends that like saw like through that I guess like saw me through that because it was like a tough period of my life without me realizing but then making me feel normal is definitely something you know that made it easier to like get to where I am and so yeah like my friends taught me a lot like my roommates my then like sophomore and junior year were like showing me like all about the world of like normal girls like it was like just like the cutesy girly stuff like they realized like all the TV shows I never got to watch like growing up because like me to nois have like access to a TV and like things like that so they like literally wrote a list of like shows and like we binged watch all of like the classics and like things like that and then they want to say some of the last and a few friends to ever be at my house because like they had like come to my parents once or twice and like I'm pretty like I don't remember but I'm pretty sure we had conversations about it after and that probably helped me and like that was like a big like turning period for me and like I didn't know it at the time but like pretty much like around that point I like kind of starting descending into like a really bad like mental health period I was very very anxious all of the time I was struggling with like suicidal ideation I didn't know that's what it was at the time but like I like constantly looks like getting intrusive thoughts about like things like that and I then was like kind of doing like showing kind of what my parents had done my whole life is just like immediately invalidating myself over something like negative like I probably had every right to be feeling that at that point but immediately like when I was feeling that way I was like you have no right to feel this way like you you've got everything you've wanted like you finally got to college like this that and the third and I was very much like toxic positivity like focus on the good which was what got me to that point but then at that point I was like invalidating myself being like everything's fine everything's fine and that really like made it a lot worse and at that point I remember it being like before I had to move home for the summer myself for a year and looking back that probably had a lot to do with it like I my brain and body probably was like knowing like brace yourself you have to go live home for the summer you know after getting like control of your life and normal safe for the year and like feeling safe like you feel safe for once like right now and like when I went home like that was like one of the worst mental health like periods because also like the state of the home when I was gone at college got completely worse because so it got worse when you guys moved out yeah I would say like I was actually so I'm the youngest but I was the first to leave okay so your honest siblings were still there yeah and I would say like before I laughed like I was probably the main person who would clean if the house were to get cleaned and then in terms of like the animals like I cared for them probably a lot more than like I mean I don't know if that's better but like I mean I think it's where I say like I definitely like cared more about the animals than my siblings like that wasn't their thing like my siblings right fully so were very like isolated like they didn't want anything to do with that like that's what I say like children for is a very different I became very much like I love the animals just like makes me survive this like relying on them like we're in this together like but my brothers were definitely the opposite and I've definitely seen that a lot more it's like you know like they are part of the problem to you and your head as a kid so it's like yeah I don't want to take care of them like why would I want to take care of them so like I was going to kind of did a lot of that stuff and then like when I left it went pretty downhill like typical kind of what parents do normally when you go to college like turn your room into things but then as you can imagine hoarders just kind of completely took over my room while I was gone like etc like it wasn't the best place to return to and I don't remember super specifically like what happened but also like something I will say is this is a big reason of why I turned out like normal ish is like riding horses was like a big safe space for me and through that I like met a lot of people who like supported me and also like I will say out of like anyone like they're the people who saw my dad quite easily because they were exposed to in the longest and my horse trainer growing up she was pretty like I always felt bad thinking it as a kid because of like you know you know you would feel like she pretty much was my mom growing up for a lot of intense and purposes especially once I got to like high school age like she taught me about like all feminine stuff like she was the one who like kindly would be like summer we need to get you into perfume like we need to find you a perfume to wear that you like like things like that that like kind of introduce and I had always wanted to be like girly and love makeup and stuff but like that wasn't something I got to do as a kid or whatever for all of the reasons so like she anytime I would be there to be like let's go get your nails done like stuff like that that really like obviously like changed my life and like little ways I'm like oh like this is normal girlhood like this is it. And like she was my safe place to land pretty much like the end of like my high school career. Like she knew about when I was being removed and stuff. She wanted me to stay with her, but she lived too far for me to stay there and also like finish like my school and like that kind of like like official stuff. Like I just wasn't allowed to stay there and do school, but she's always been someone who's like in my corner has always like shown me like kind of what normalcy is. In a lot of ways. I mean like yeah no family is perfect, but like she was the one who taught me like how to like care like and she like made it like though I'm like you need to care for yourself like and that's something really like children of course don't know like you need to take care of yourself like take care of your hygiene like it's important to like care for your body like and even just feeding myself like when you do come from like a hoarding situation or just like neglect like nutrition definitely isn't the easiest like the things you do want to eat aren't the healthiest so like she's always pushed me to like be a better person. So I was like around that time is like when I started kind of full on pulling away from my parents without like kind of knowing that I was doing it but I would only ever go around for like and I mean they used to say this to me it's like an offensive thing my father would be like you only ever come around when you need something but it's like my response to that now is like when did you ever make me feel like I could come to you for anything else right you know like when were you ever a safe space that made me like want to be around you for anything other than necessity unfortunately yeah so you got like anytime I would like go around it was for a holiday and even then like I like I spend a lot of college holidays alone like I would stay at my dorm if I was allowed to but I would just go home for the actual day like so I can get like I very much like that was my way of controlling it and like at the time like this is like a thing like I do want to like say it was really important for like kids like me is like the shame and guilt we experience like obviously from the conditions is so hard but then like when you leave you feel so much shame and guilt like trying to like do anything to hold your parents responsible like my like even as simple as just like my mom would text me all the time I'd be in class like she relied on me so much when I lived at home I get to college and it'd be like somewhere ex-missy like things I couldn't even like do anything about like she's just like giving me things to worry about and it's like I felt so guilty being like hey mom like could you at least not text me during class like it's just like I'm a hyperlite anxious person you know like like that doesn't work for me and like honestly I probably have a hyperlite anxious person because like that's how my mom is like she's always like quick to like make you anxious over even like the smallest things somehow but like yeah like at that point I was like you're not very like comfortable to be around with like all of the anxiety you're inducing so like I am only coming around with what works for me and like I didn't vocalize it at the time but like they definitely slowly like over the year started realizing so like that was in like 2015 16ish on and then I graduated around like 2017 18 like time frame and like from then on like it was like slowly like I'm really only coming around like over and necessary things like not trying to mess around with them much and slowly over time I realized like obviously that was because like pretty much they themselves are a trauma trigger for me like being around them being at and like when you leave a home like that like growing up you truly wouldn't know you smelled sometimes until you got to school even if you like like I would remember like some mornings I would like sniff my clothes and be like I'm really checking to make sure this doesn't have like a smell to it but it was like in an environment that smelled like right yeah so it's like I would get to school and then be like dang I'm getting made fun of that I smell like to I smell like the heck and like honestly like the state of our home unfortunately like made us like it is like similar to a band at home because like I work in the city and I like unfortunately like there's so many like unhoused people like on the streets and when I walk by them I even get like trigger flashbacks to my like home because it smells so similar and even that's something that's like weirdly validating to be like yeah my home life was really bad if like even with four walls you know I was like smelling like an unhoused person like that's how my parents had me living like that's kind of crazy of them to like think that that's normal yeah so when did your siblings end up living out so one more Reese I guess like we honestly like my timeline because I like pushed away from the family like I do know things and I'm super close with one and like the other one I would say is still very in back like I'm meshed in the family system so like he's still there yeah and like even speaking up it was hard because it's like he's still living there but I feel like a need to speak up for you know so when did you start speaking up a little like a few years ago I like I think 2023 or 2024 no 2023 was like I another mental health crisis period for me and it was like because of oh yes so the dentist and like medical stuff I mentioned before when I went to the dentist and like the eye doctor I went to the eye doctor and I have like never had classes because I never really went I think maybe one time my parents did take me they prescribed glasses and like my parents either never picked them up or we got them and who knows you know like it wasn't like a long term thing so I'd always just lived my life how I was and when I went to the eye doctor he was like do you drive and I was like that's what I was thinking yeah and he was like like how long and like my just like kind of like post-COVID times and I thought he was just being like like I do you drive all the time like what do you do like do you drive a lot and I'm like oh like now like I don't really drive much like I worked from home at the time like I just run out for errands and he said like no like you drive and I said yeah like I like I drive a car like I have a license and he was like yeah you're not allowed behind like a wheel without classes like you're double the legal limit like I was like don't I don't know what that means because like you're legally blind without classes like you cannot legally drive a car without like corrective lenses so I wish was out there driving you know right you know like so sorry to the people on the streets like but I was that and like what's also interesting it's it's like kind of a metaphor for like how life is is like before I had glasses and a lot of people glasses look say the same thing it's like well it like I knew I saw bad but like it didn't feel that bad but then when you get glasses it's a difference I literally take them off and it's like my boyfriend made fun of me like before then like I couldn't read like the big signs and like stores and he was like always thinking whatever and I'm like no I guess I was blind yeah my bad like and then with my teeth like my parents rarely if ever took us and like I know my siblings probably like a struggle with it even more so but like my teeth not in the best condition like and yeah like I'll say I didn't have the best like teeth hygiene when I left but it's also like we were never top that and I also have raging ADHD so it was really hard to like as an adult build all of those routines yeah and then like I finally did and then I go to the dentist and I'm all happy about my life and I'm like yeah my teeth are great I've been taken care of them and yeah no I needed two root canals and it costs like $10,000 and like you want to turn and stuff and it's like crazy yeah and it's just like little things like that where it's like that would happen and I'm like I'm angry at my parents again because it's like it just goes it's another like cost of like and it's like symbolic like a lot of children say it's like it really sucks like breaking the cycle in general because it's like I am having to do all of the work for like the stuff you did like I'm literally having actually like pay for it financially in ways too like what you did to me like all the therapy too but it's like even that was like such a like flagrant like I think the most heartbreaking part about things like that is that it's so preventable yeah and it's like and what's crazy is like looking back it's like my father did have jobs where he probably had like medical insurance and stuff yeah and that's like they were struggling with like the co-pays and stuff but it's like that was just like they really were so bad with money and like this is something the reason why my father was an addictions counselor is like from what he always told me in his story is like he was an addict growing up and like that's and I think that is like a typical thing like addicts become addictions counselors it's common but I always say like me and my one sibling that like talk a lot like it's like it was he using like is that where the money went but like that in ways it's like no my father was crazy enough without like and I don't know I was really perceptive as a kid like I feel like I would have picked up a few is using but also you know who knows but like it's just crazy that even if he wasn't an addict still he was like he had like the spending habits of one you know like and that also like the fed into like the hoarding where it's like he really had no control over like I guess what he chose to spend money on like an even like after I would like go to college like sometimes I get like I could never do anything for myself especially like when I got to college without like getting a gilded text after like if it was like and I don't even sometimes I'm like I just like how do they know that I'm doing something like I would like go on a vacate like I think the first vacation I ever went on was like my sophomore year of college went on a Florida trip with my friends and like I of course got texts from my mom like asking me for money while I'm on the trip and it like I now like kind of see it like I don't know if she like means to but it's something she's always done yeah whether it's like a purposeful gild trip or not she's always kind of like setting up this like guilt fest like like I felt like she would purposefully ask me anytime I was on vacation because it's like oh you're spending money on yourself like that means you should be able to give us money or if you don't like now you're gonna feel bad about it because you went and spent money on yourself rather than like yeah giving us money for kind of no reason and that's like also another thing like with orders as people like well what if they had resources etc like same thing like an out if they aren't willing to use the resources like it's the same thing like you could pay like because it's like thousands of dollars like people like professionally like clean up order and like they deserve that much under understandably you charge ten twelve thousand dollars you deserve it but it's like even if you were to like pay that like even on like my TikTok like I've had people be like start to go fund me I'm like I know like I want to do that over there like sure but like well so that there's no you have to accept they have to want it for them to like like the main thing that like I have trouble with is like they're like to take accountability because like even I am like of course like I like even like aside from all they've done for me I want differently for them like I don't know yeah it's moving like this into their old age like I don't want this for them but even if I spent all the money in the world went there myself and took all the time in the world to clean it who's to say it stays that way and like even in their old age I feel like they would still find ways to fly or like endless amounts of like items so it's like I don't know like what more to do in that situation and like just especially it's like I'm paying all the other costs for like the effects of me and now I'm supposed to like do that for you and that's just like that is like a general thing that like gets put on to kids whether it's hoarding or in general like when you speak up it's like well help your parents like why are you speaking up like instead of helping them and it's like don't you think that before speaking up a child has like exhausted all other options like in my case like I felt the need to speak up because it truly felt like the only thing that could work because I've witnessed my father like animal control in and out in and out like so many times where they at my parents property and it's like ever since I've left my parents farm like you know you see the news stories of like 100-order cats safe from home like person arrested and it's like like and I would always like think like why is like like why did nobody ever like react to like my father's conditions in the way that they like I think to you know another thing is as you spent your whole life feeling very isolated and I think that you know in a way by speaking out and sharing your story it allows you to connect with other people that can relate to you yeah and understand I never thought other people like and it's like it's selfish but it's also just kind of inherently like kind of like that when you're isolated like this like I truly like this is just me and my family like this is a very individualized experience like even when I kind of realized hoarding was a thing which honestly like only towards the later like times in my life did I know there was a word for it did my friends watch hoarders now is like I need to turn that off like that's that's a little too real for me and I'm like oh yeah that's what it is like then you know and it's like was it shocking to you to see how many people could relate yeah honestly I really thought like yeah just me and then so many people and even just aside from that it was like the things they were saying were like I like you always see people are like oh I always thought I had original experiences and it's like I've never really had that you know I've never been like oh I realize it's not just me but with this like I did because like the flea thing I mentioned people like commented about and that's like one of my biggest trauma so like when someone commented that like that simple like one comment like out of however like that like felt so validating to me to be like oh my god like other kids of like actually been through this and like I get the same rhetoric in my comments a lot it's it's bittersweet because I'm so happy like I have people to relate to because you like you really wouldn't think too in this situation or but then it's like bitter because I don't want people you know like I don't want this to have like I did not want this amount of people to relate to this subject like yeah you don't want that to be in that amount of kids or like going through it going through it and unfortunately like it does seem quite common and like and for just various mixes of reasons that like people live in this like way and oh this was like awesome like something like through my journey to speak up like it was because like honestly I feel like every time my mental health would get bad I would like feel the need to like confront things more and like I realized I had OCD and with that came realizing all like a lot of my obsessive like thoughts stem around like my home conditions and just in general like my need to feel in control of my environment obviously comes from the fact I had no control of the one I had growing up so it's like I'm obsessed with control now like my pork boyfriend like living with me like sometimes it's not the greatest all admit but it's like that comes from like meeting like control over like everything and when I finally like realized like speaking up then it like wasn't just me like it's also even common for us to have OCD and to be this way and people like a lot of the parents are the same unfortunately like copy and paste the same rhetoric of like the kids are bearing like the shame they're getting bullied at school it's like they're isolated they can't talk to their parents about it but then like when I started like speaking up I really like one in people to like have a space to talk about it and that's like a lot of like sometimes you're like you post so much of the same stuff and like it's like okay but it's because I as many times as I posted this I've gotten you know like five more like DMs from people being like thank you so much like I never knew I had someone to relate to like and truthfully like it is such shameful like stuff to talk about that even like aside from therapy like it's easiest to talk about it to people that experience like the same type of shame per se like similar experience yeah and because I even said like the reason like I also kind of got to a point like with my mental health in 2023 is like I do have like I made good friends in college like I made a life for myself like I got a good degree like I did good academically in college like I thrived like xyz like from the outside looking in you're like wow that's like a really happy girl and like yes I had moments where I thrived but like I crashed in burned after college because once college was over like all my friends like moved to their home back to their hometowns or where their jobs are and like it was like kind of back to that isolation again where I do have close friends but it's like text and like that type of thing was just very reminiscent of like me being very isolated as a kid and even though like I upgrade friends like there is just like a a different level of like validation and community when it's I'm not like because I've entered to my friends a million times this stuff like I'm very open about it but when I then went into like a room with people who have been through the same thing and it's it's way different like I was so alone and like spoke up in 2023 like a lot of the time because I was like so when you started speaking up I'm assuming you had already moved out yeah so I had moved out like four college and then there might there was like periods I lived at home like since like 2013 2014 I left for college and then from then to like 2018ish I'd say like there was like little stents of me like living home where it's like I had nowhere else to stay like but even then like my parents would be like why don't you want to live at home because like I started paying for off-campus housing working free job like I knew like if I were to go home even though for other people it's like summer why aren't you staying home it's 20 minutes away why are you living on campus at school like yeah because I kind of need to like I knew I would fail if I lived at home. So like, I I stayed there very, like I barely remember the points where I stayed there. There was like one stint of like my parents, like domestic violence was like so big and like my early years honestly, but like I don't remember it. Like the most that I know about that is like through my older siblings. And just like the little vague details and like obviously like my parents still fought pretty crazy like growing into like older age, but I think my father stopped being as like physically violent because my one sibling got big enough to like - Defend. - Interject and stuff like that. So it became more casual, but there was a stint in like 2017 where I was like living at home like between like off campus houses or whatever where my mom was and like dad had got into like a huge huge screaming fight and like for days on end. And like I remember being like around the time where like I needed to like study for things and like I was having to like mediate their fights and like that was definitely one of the points where I was like. - It's okay. - Like that was probably one of the times where my parents like guilt worked where it's like don't spend money living outside the home. You can save money living here. But like I kid you not whenever I lived at home like they drained me. So it's like I didn't even get to save up money if I ever lived at home to try and do that. So it's like that was definitely one of those like last moments where it's like I can't like I had known throughout college but that was definitely like one of the last times I think I stayed there for a bit of time. And then I graduated and yeah, I feel like once I graduated in like 2017, 2018, I that's like where I really just started like only visiting there if I needed to like pick up like mail just like for a while like because I moved so much in school I just kept that as like my permanent address for like taxes whatever important stuff in life. And so like I would go there to pick up things and like the animals like I'll get into it later but like the one dog I saved was there and it's like I still had a few animals there. I was attached to so like I would go and visit and like see the animals and like my parents probably didn't know at the time but I was checking in to be like you know like. I was going like what's going on and like my parents don't know it but like me and my siblings I'm pretty sure like I actually I don't know if I can like speak for them and like remembering it but like I remember I called like CPS on my parents myself at times and animal control like they'd hate that but it's like that's the reality of like I even like witness stuff like after I left for college where I was like right I got a call like I can't like do nothing even though that was like my trauma growing up is like them coming all the time I was like yeah. And that's like kind of where I realized like like I grew up loving animals but pretty much everything I witnessed was like opposite of like my morals my value is like everything I like standard for like I then like look back and I'm like how much did like like that's like one of the biggest guilt things is like how much did I contribute to like you know like animals being harmed without like knowing us like an unwilling child and like that's like something you know it's like even like aside from normal stuff like that's something parents can undo like you had me like witness and be a part of like so much that I know like burdened like Carrie Blame for and yes like from then on I just really like checked in like if like for bare minimum and oh yeah so I will say like this is probably also why things notably changed I started dating my like current partner in 2017 I do yeah 2017 and like from then on like his family really took me in for holidays like I had a place to go so like honestly it's like once I had a place to go I always chose that over like my parents home and like sometimes the awkward conversation where they'd be like hey are you going to see your parents today too? I'm like no. Yeah no thank you but yeah like they took me in and also like my of course trainer that I mentioned like my mom like she's always invited me for like every holiday like ever since like college time so truthfully like thinking back like I know that like I was in contact with them they've messaged me and stuff but I really did like pull away as soon as I graduated college like completely some people and you're like your parents about your college graduation you can't have hated them that much like you think if I told my narcissist father he wasn't allowed to come to my but all of that's so much so it's like even then it's like a complex yeah so it's so complex and it's so small in the grand scheme of things I was going to ask you too so when you started speaking out about your childhood did you try speaking to your family about it prior? Yeah so that's like a big thing is like also like sometimes when people on the internet I'm like yeah everything you said it's it's been tried so yeah so like keep going back like 23 like my mental health got bad and when I realized like I think that's when I realized I had OCD and through that was like a lot of like trauma triggers and everything that I and honestly like my therapist at the time who I'm still with less her heart like she kind of started like exploring with me like things that like made me uncomfortable and then that then led to me being like I'm also uncomfortable like I'm uncomfortable around my parents and that's a shameful thing to say but like I around that time I'd actually like tried to take my mom on a trip because like growing up my father like whatever trying to be like the nice daughter I am like aside from everything else and that whole entire trip like like made me realize like I feel like my skin is on fire like when I'm around my parents because like it's so much like trauma memories and then just on top of that like I was always in charge of everything so it's like when I'm with them it's just buzzing with anxiety like I have to deal with everything and and just also I think I just realized at that time like the not speaking about it was like literally harming me like I was struggling like all of like the OCD stuff that was like coming through was like my mouth stuff I would like obsess over like my mouth and like my mouth isn't straight and it's probably because my parents neglected me all my life I can't do anything about it like and even like I have health and like anxiety and OCD and that comes from like the fact that like I obsess over what health conditions could I have from like growing up in a situation like that and all of that pretty much like tumbled into me like pretty much deciding like and telling my therapist like I don't think I can have a relationship with them unless accountability has had and I was like getting to the point where it's like I'm like now 30 like at that point a few years younger but it's like my parents are getting older they're having health issues like I was starting to feel that like pressure like I feel like a lot of people feel like it's like my parents were gonna probably die in the next xyz years like I want to make sure you know I resolve what I need to or like have the relationship with them that I want to if it's possible because like honestly at that time I knew it was not likely you know what I grew up with my parents how they were I knew them well enough to kind of know how it would go but I had like some hope to be like maybe and like I was the golden child growing up like they pretty much like if anyone like I'd leave of out of me and my siblings would get them to like see what they were doing it would be me because it's like you gave me the best and I still have stuff to say you know so it's like you would think they'd be like oh like make them realize yeah like I truly thought maybe like a smidge of them will be like all right and also it's like like from the whole like hoarding perspective it's like all right there's someone here offering help that gets it you know like I understand like there's less shame I'd assume in like that situation to like accept the help and so I like I don't know if I should read it like I do have the message I sent to my mom I feel like it like some things that pretty well I pretty much like said like I've been doing a lot of work healing and amidst that my relationship with you has become really difficult and I recognize that like you and dad love me like trying to give them grace but for a long time now I've left that like super seed my need to seek your accountability for a lot of things as a child you failed to give me a safe and stable home the inconsistencies have been something that greatly affect me day to day and have added to like my daily struggles and I message this to my mom because she was probably the better of the two to receive it so I was like as my mother I know this is not easy for you to hear but be assured that as your daughter it wasn't easy for me to say knowing it could hurt your feelings over the years whether you realize it or not you have used me as a form of emotional stability and then like I pretty much laid out like my boundaries pretty clear like the lack of accountability is what's keeping me away and having to even vocalize it to you to even like you know you should have been the one to bring up the conversation if you really wanted to like that's adding to my frustration with you and got a little dramatic and I was like I cannot pretend like my child who didn't happen my drink my brain is not going to allow it my rotting teeth in my mouth like I have blurry vision like all of that will not allow me to like forget like the stuff that you have put me through. Like, and honestly at that point, like of course, like I deserve to have a lot of anger and you know, about everything I had been through, but I even at that time was more so like coming from the perspective of if there's accountability taken, like I'm happy to work through that anger and like and see what like that would be, but after that like my dad took my phone of course and honestly I literally assumed this would happen. That's also the part of my OCD that struggles. It's like I unfortunately usually assume right, especially when it comes to my parents and he was, he immediately flipped it on me and didn't kind of what he did throughout my childhood. And was like this is shaming, that's your perspective. Then like blamed me for things trying to make me feel bad. Facts are we neglected your siblings for you. We neglected financial obligations to make your like dreams of riding courses come true and like all of these things that have nothing to do is like the living environment. The living conditions, et cetera. And then he was like, he always says this, like replay the tape. He's like replay the tape. We've made so many sacrifices for you. And honestly like it's funny because it's like all even say that. Like I recognize that even aside from that, my parents did make a lot of sacrifices for me, but it's also a lot of things I didn't ask for them to do. And then that put a lot of burden on me and then they used that as a chip to be like. - I guilt. - Like hate your sister because we've done more for her. And then now years later I confront you, even also for my siblings. Like I'm not just speaking up for me. It may seem that way, but like I'm also speaking up for them and how you treated them just to be like, well it's all because of you. Like we did all of that because of you. And it's like, oh yeah, that's not true. And so after that, honestly, like I was anger central and like every, like I could not like contain my anger and I that was kind of like a turning point for me because before then like you even saw that message. Like I don't think my parents probably deserved that amount of grace with like everything I've said before, but like I gave it and I was so angry after and I'd never been like angry like that before. And pretty much like that's what led to me like going public and like, oh she's angry, like emotional. Cool, yeah, fine. But I had gotten to a point where like my anger over like what they were doing like superseded my need to protect them. And like I think that happened for a lot of children. And like with me also, it's like that's like, I think I wanna make sure I do discuss this. Like the animals, like I spoke up not really even about my situation at first. I started like locally in like my hometown's Facebook being like these are the things I know about my dad. He's a backyard breeder. If you have bought like a puppy from him during these dates, like please, like if you wanna message me, like I can give you information, like but also like just to warn people going forward. Like if you get a dog from him, like it's probably gonna cost you money, like you know, like health issues, like XYZ thing. It's probably fraudulent, probably not actually registered the way it's supposed to be, like whatever. And like truthfully, like was just like I was probably like done, I don't, like I had always cared so much about their opinion of me being like the perfect daughter, whatever, even aside from everything else that like that, like broke the dam, like I was like, I don't care about their perspective of me. So I'm gonna post this because I don't care. Like I don't care if they get blowback for it. And also it's like I had carried the shame for so long. I'm like here, you can have some of it. You know, like you mentioned, it goes from a most the survival mode to then you trying to navigate if you can have this relationship with them and kind of help them also. And then the fact that how you were treated was just turned back on you. Obviously, you know, that's gonna result in anger. I had realized so at that point, I feel like I visited home right before that last message. And like I saw the conditions and like they were horrible. And like, do you think they were worse than when you were in the movie? You can like skim through this, I show it to you, but like that's like the living conditions at the time. I decided to speak up and going into the house, like on the right, that had always been the living room. It's the living room from like my earlier homecoming photo. And it's literally full of dog shit. Like all the stuff on the ground, that's like years, months, who even knows? Like of like dry dog shit. And then like the rest of the house, like I've seen it in disarray, of course, like throughout my life, but like it's definitely the worst it had been. And the dog, like I had always like kind of like, well it was like kind of like I would say, like the last animal I had attached when to like when I left for college, like emotionally, he like spent his days in that room or chained to a tree outside. And mind you, like they're using him for breeding. So it's like they're making money off of him and then like putting nothing back like into care. And like that's just very like synonymous for like what, like they did to us, you know, like barely put anything into us, but then expect everything back from us. And like I also think that's kind of why it's like for the animals, like I take it so hard and so personally because it feels like I'm doing what I wanted people to do for me, like X amount of years ago, like they don't like even more than like I didn't have a voice as a kid, like the animals have like nobody to like speak on their living conditions, how they live. And after I took that video, like I literally took it 'cause I was scared of my father, like, 'cause I had spoken up so I was like, - It's a big house. - Yeah, it's a five bedroom rancher. It cost my parents half a million dollars and like they destroyed it. They got it in like 2005, I think it was. And then yeah, like that's now like 2024. So like 20 years. - Yeah. - And like the doors and the windows, like every year. - Yeah, and it's like dirty, like and that's like from the animals, like and that's just even something like I now know was like normal. - So this room with the red door, that's like where the dog was kept and like where like all the dog shows. - Yeah. - And like that earlier, the like straight pink dress, like photo, that's from that room. Like and like back then I think it had carpet now. Like a lot of the rooms like as it progressed now to like this point, my parents like have turned both my like siblings rooms and my room into like animal hoarding rooms. Like and they are used to be carpet, then it was brought up to the subfloor, then the subfloor was then like, like just exposed and now it's just ruined. - So how many animals have you saved from their house on your own? - Three out of my five own animals are from saving them. And since then honestly it's hard to know 'cause like once I spoke up, there was so many, like the frustrating thing is honestly so many people really still to this day do not care in my hometown. - Which is pretty sweet. - Like my father and like that video I posted, like on their Facebook page. I literally had someone be like, how do I know this isn't just a random shed you took a video with. - I don't know, it was your brain, you know? - Yeah and the thing is too, you know, I think it's one thing obviously besides the mental health aspect. It's one thing if two adults are choosing to live in that environment. - Yeah and like that's not even say I was like, no it's like like the older but like. - Right, it's like there's animals living there. And like and I think too. - And it is like a hoard, like I've like kind of realized like it is like a hoarding thing. Like and it is like I think come and like in the later stages of hoarding and like my parents think they're doing good. They're like we're rescuing at. - Right. - Also they don't have to go to a shelter but then it's like counterintuitive because also none of your animals have ever been fixed in my lifetime. So you're contributing so many kittens and puppies. Like and that like is something that inspired me to speak up is like I would see like dogs in my hometown being like lost given up and like they were the breeds that my father would breed. And I'm like, I wonder how much he contributes to. And it's like my father went from breeding goldmour troopers then to Huskies, now to Corgis. Like he breeds whatever he thinks is making the most money at the time. Like he's really not a reputable breeder yet. People are still out here like defending him and like. I mean like I got a good dog from him. Like happy you had a singular good experience but like there's so much like proof to the contrary. I'm surprised people don't go there and think I don't want an animal from here. - So that's like what I don't get. It's like that room, especially like once you go into the level of the dining area, that's like where it like usually be cleaned up at that point. Like they clean up the best they could. But like that's it. And like I literally have like pictures of like they have like puppy like this is how they would like present the puppies to people in that room. Like in a little like swimming pool like sawdust. Like if you look at the ground, like what do you think? Like I grew up and thought it was normal. But now like I'm like how do you visit and not look at the floor and not like get concerned? - You see and like there were some people like once I spoke up who were like I went there. People literally went there to buy stuff from like Facebook marketplace from them. And my parents like one of the, and like this is like thing is like adult dogs are disposable to breeders once they can't breed anymore. And literally like a lady got a dog from my parents just because she went to pick something up. The dog right up to her, she said this is a cute dog. They said, Do you want a dog? Gave it to her. - Yeah. - It's wild that people, I don't even know. And that is just a sad thing is truly the people that will buy from him, probably will keep doing it because they just want a cheap puppy. They don't care what animals are for, and then the making of it. They don't care that the mom is being neglected and abused, barely ever taken to the vet. They don't even care that they've been lied to 'cause I literally like, hey guys, you've been lied to. Like, and a lot of people really like defended it. And then from then on, luckily I got in contact with a lot of people and like, I'll say, like the one good thing about me, I'll say my father gave me is, I'm just as stubborn as he is, but I'm the opposite way. Like I've always been like strong armed about justice, doing the right thing, and like, maybe that is what he thinks he's doing, it's just not the right idea. So when's the last time you spoke to them? - I think like May of last year, because February is when I went public, and I started posting on Facebook, and honestly I won't even say, I just had contact with them from February of 2024 to like May 24, fighting with them on Facebook, like with people and like, kind of like debating with them, 'cause like when I went public, my dad then tried to like, like she's defaming me, she's slandering me. I work in the legal field. - Right. - I know. - Also like why would you do that? I like why would you waste time out of your life? - Why would I want to pretend this life out of anything? Like I'm embarrassing myself, you know, like two in this process, like, and I literally even said that to him, I was like, it's a shame to even admit that I lived here, why yourself? - Why do you think I have one of this? Like, and then he called me like a disgruntled teen, like a troubled teen, mind you, I just told you I had like good grades, and was like studying by a candle, like anyone who knew me from school, aside from like the other stuff, they would literally tell you I was a nerd, a bookworm. Like I didn't, even if I won into, I didn't have access to go out to call like high school parties and whatever, and then he like says, I like drank and drove and crashed his cars. Never did that. Like all of these things, like he just threw out, like what narcissists do, like outlanders things, outlanders things like to distract, but it's like guys, I think the things I'm posting with quite hard proof, like my father can't show you any proof of me being a troubled teen. And then like even like what's so crazy and so unethical of him is like online, he's like, she has borderline personality disorder, and that's why she's like doing this, I don't, and like, if anyone's listening that does, - He was like, "Guard this heart." - No harm, but like, - That those, there's images and videos, obviously, like I know where does that okay for a child. It is like a dissonant thing of people don't wanna like accept the reality that like children can actually live like this, that parents can actually be this horrible. And even also especially without even really meaning to me, be like giving, like some great, like it's like, with hoarding and stuff, it's like they may not really mean to be this horrible in that sense, but you can unfortunately end up being a horrible parent, even when you think you're trying your best and that doesn't sit right with people. And like, and so yeah, like people were saying that, and it's like mind you, it's like this town I've grown up in, it's like the same people that are like defending them, it's like you've probably known of me just as longer. Like, it's insane to like think that like, people are like, this is family drama. And like my town, I think just very much has that rhetoric, unfortunately a lot of like people can have that like helps abusers get away. That's like, it stays with it, like, what happens in the family stays as a family. And it's like, okay, cool, but the only reason I'm speaking up as his daughter is because you guys are funding his business in this community, you know, like you're the ones, you know, and also I just really wanted to speak up 'cause I'm like, I do not understand why he's not in trouble. Like, and I was gonna say to it's something where it's like, you know, I think you speaking up not only brings awareness to other children that could be involved in this situation, but also about this mental illness, like the fact that like it's, it's, it is like, and like that's the thing, and I even actually have got messages from people who hoard is like a lot, and they're like the comments from people, 'cause I get so many comments from other people, like saying their stuff in my comments, and they're like, I saw the comment, and especially the main thing is like social isolation. They're like, I saw your comments, and it's really like, you know, nipped me in the bud to like go do something because I realize like, my daughter can't have sleepovers, and that's because of me, like things like that. It's like, I also hope for that too. Like it's not like, it's like, just for like the kids. Like I hope that like me speaking up, 'cause like I even see that for my parents, there is like a point of no return in a lot of ways, I think that like hoarders get to where it's like, well, you can't ask for help now, like it's kind of like, you know, beyond that. So they may have gotten to that point, but like I want maybe to try and see if there is like a way to like support like people, like my parents before it gets to that point, because there is usually like children involved, animal hoarding is very common with hoarders, because like my parents think they're helping, like they think that like they're loving and super caring for the animals, like that's the reality. And then like, I just don't get how they don't see it, and then I did end up getting them in trouble finally, but it like took like literally pulling teeth, like for months, I was like conversing with every like, powerful person, like I could try to, but then also like my father weirdly, because he did like the political stuff running for like town committee, whatever it was, like when I was in college, like people were protecting him because of that, and I'm like, what is this have to do? Like this is nothing to do with like small town politics. This is literally just straight up criminal neglect of like animals and children, like I don't know what else he want me to like say, like he's never like been charged with anything, of course, except for like the violations, like he'll get from like the code, and like even that, I'm like that's not far enough. Like what happened last year ended up in like me posting online, it posted anywhere and everywhere, animal organizations all over, were like messaging my local town, advocating like with me to be like, hey, we want a response, you need to do something, and the response was very little. I had to go to a municipal meeting, that actually probably is the last time I talked to my parents, really. I went to a municipal meeting, it was on Zoom, thank God, I wanted to have to see my parents in person that time, but like I had to pretty much go up against my dad in the meeting like in the town and be like, yeah, like these are the reasons why you need to not give him a kennel license, or like if you do, like you need to do it, so you're actually going to regulate him, you're going to like show, like you're going to inspect, like you have to put in the footwork, like I know him, like he, even though I have reported and made this public, it doesn't matter, he's going to keep doing what he's doing unless you make it obvious, like, but he can't, and that it's like hard for him to do it, and that is a sad thing, it's like I just had to make it difficult for him to do it, to not like do it really, you know? Like, and so then he got a violation, but it's like I literally, like it's just so sad that like I had to do it, you know, after X amount of years, X amount of like people that he's harmed, X amount of, and like who even knows how many animals he's like put out into the like the world in the community, and like, or that haven't survived, and I think that's the thing. Yeah, and that's even like, that is like something that was so commonplace, like the animal starved and died also at my home, and her buried like, and that's where I think probably to realize, is it's at this, at this point, I feel like, like yes, you're speaking out for yourself and your siblings and other people, but now it's like you're not trying to get them in trouble to like start a war. Yeah, like it's between the start and the start. My daughter just disgruntled like I don't want to get back. You and that way, like really that's the only thing. I wanted to like get back at you. I'd be like messaging you all horrible. Yeah, you were something. I know, I was like just trying to, I want to save animals. And like literally I did. So like that's like the other like main thing I posted about was like after I went public, took that video, like my dog that I like saved from there, like I was like I can't do it. Like I need to get him. I don't live in a place that's probably meant to have him because he's a bigger dog and whatever, but I was like I need to do something, even if it's like a short term and I find him a better place, like I literally took him out of the yard and left and like told them like you're not getting him back. And like even like how I said, like they just give what like they didn't care. Like because they were done using him. And like from then on, like he had so many diseases, mind you, I had to cover, you know, hundreds of dollars, free treatment, thousands of dollars on his dental. Like is he that room he was in? There's also like crates in there. So I guess at one point they would close him in the crates. He's like teeth are all broken from like pulling on it. And like that's also something that's like kept my anger, like getting him, like kept my anger going in a good way because I got him and like I kept on like my parents on the town, like on people because I'm like, all the stuff I'm seeing that he's gone through is not like, like it reminded me of like myself, like getting him and watching him adjust to like normalcy. And like I was like, I'm not letting this go. Like I can't like it's like a thing where it's like, it sucks that it's been burdened on to me because that unfortunately was kind of like my legacy and the family growing up to like take care of everything. But speaking up has become like my burden. Like it's my purpose. And like I am like finding like good in it now. But like at the time it's suck that it's like, I'm the one having to do this. I got them in trouble like and now it's, you know, like I always say it's like, people like hate on like there's a big like you know a children who go no contact or like ungrateful like on the internet like that's like a common thing but it's like I was so great like I did everything I could to like help them beforehand I offered like even before I think I went public I like told them because like I did work so I was like I can get you in the rescue organization to like help unload animals like without like shame involved you know like I can help like let me do something but like they're like no we're happy with our animals we're not gonna let them go to a shelter like xyz thing but then also mind you I don't even think like my town went to remove animals like even after everything all they did was allow them to license all the animals they have so then okay they license everything now they're in code and it's like okay but they still have over like I think like my local code is like 10 or more dogs at like my hometown like and then if you have more than that it's considered like commercial I don't know like you need a kind of license and my father like I'm still sure to this day like I'm not positive because I haven't like been around as much obviously but like I'm still pretty sure he has like 10 plus dogs literally on my birthday this year I looked at his Facebook and he turned my childhood bedroom into like a duck and chicken pen like and even that's like after we got in trouble like you know like he really there's no and like even then I'm like I care about all the animals like it's not just like the dogs in the cats and like the easiest like like the easier things like get people to care about I guess like it's like everything that he does that like you know in ways like is like a secondary harm and trauma probably for the rest of my life like having to like just know like this and even people say like I feel so much secondary like grief for my parents if this is their life you know like I don't want this for them like I want for them to change you know like and to want better for the remainder of their years like who wants to live like they're seen like I even have had like I'm so thinking like how do anyone want to live like that and they're senior years and like it's not right it's not good and it's like a thing common when people get into senior age for like according to become a thing just like naturally because you don't physically have like you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah whatever but like it's just like going on for so long yeah and like to already be that point before you and that's also it's like at the burden of responsibility when my parents get sick like who's taking care of them like when they pass away who's dealing with the hoarder home like you know that's all like stuff that like children reporters have to like have like anticipatory grief for and like so yeah like I spoke up and like didn't go like the best I'd say like in my hometown but like I did get stuff accomplished and then that's what led me to be like I'm gonna talk about stuff on tiktok honestly people seem to like care way more about stuff like there and I like started getting like support and honestly like I think I posted there more trying to be like here's my story and hopefully it'll draw attention to like the animal stuff and like get them but like because that's what I was concerned about at the time but like I simply just like posted it like the picture of like me and those dresses like that's what has like gained traction online because it is like kind of people have said it's like poetic in a sense like I'm happy I'm smiling like pretending like everything's okay like but the background literally just like shows you like how it's like the truth is like everything was behind closed doors and like people have really like seen that and then like seeing how many people have related to it is like what's kept me going because like of course at first I'm sharing for like my situation and trying to help it but now that like I've realized that there's so many kids like me there's kids still living I thought of message me that like I'm like I'm happy to help like any kid that like is living like me currently or getting out because even sometimes I say like leaving is the hardest like adjustment like for us like yeah because even though you know it's wrong that's your normal that's what you're used to even without like mental health and stuff like once you leave like learning all of that stuff like you're literally like a baby like buy yourself like I was you my friends you feel like summer you have no street smarts but it's like I have no street or house like I didn't know like common sense thing is like when it came especially to like home life living like my roommates like what have to tell me out of like like when to clean how to clean they'd be like summer did you think you cleaned yeah dishes and like yeah they like you know like just like even little things like that that it's like I hope to like break the shame around it and like also like hoping that like other people can be inspired to like be nicer to kids like well that's like even like adults like you truly like and it's like such a common like thing like you don't know what people are going through like you really need to like off like even I say like with my parents of course like I want them to be held responsible but I also do believe a part of like the issue that leads to hoarders not getting help is like not being like like approached without like shame or etc like yeah of course I'm shaming them on the internet I guess like in posting my story but it's more so I've gotten into a point where it's not about shaming them it's about like advocating for the kids like me that literally have no choice. That's what you say too and I think that you you know you serve as this like you said like this advocate this light in the darkness and I feel like a lot of kids like we were talking about before probably do have a lot of shame and embarrassment and guilt and by seeing you talk about it that could make them feel less of that which I think is so important. Yeah like that's like really truly is like the biggest thing and like the biggest takeaway and like thing that I feel like needs to get across to kids like me as like the shame is not yours like right it's okay like to start placing it like where it belongs on your parents it feels so hard to do like yeah and like everything you did like I truthfully like in a lot of ways it helped me like when I left for college like I left it all behind of course like caught up to me I need to heal but I went to school and I was like that's not my life anymore like that doesn't need to be like how I live and exist in the world you know I can be different but yeah it's like I will say like there's positives and like I know so much about animals because of how much I had to deal with like I do feel like I'm different from other people and like how much I love them and care for them because of like how much like I've had to witness and stuff and like that is like where it's like you start finding like pride, purpose and like stuff and like and it's like suck it because like I know like I don't like it being like well everything you go through has a reason it's like like I hate to think that there's a reason for it but then now it's like I'm getting to the perspective of there's a purpose like now and like what I've been through like it to use it to like make other kids feel seen and to help like because that is a thing like there's so many animals and other like it depends, depends on things besides like children like in situations like this and like I just hope to be able to make like them have a voice because it is something that it's like took me 30 years I think like 20, 30 years like to be able to like talk about it publicly because for so long you're kind of taught that that is like against what like against your family and like you're not allowed to so like even though it was the scariest thing I've probably ever done like I'm so happy I did it and like yeah like that effectively cut my contact with my family in a lot of ways but like I'll never I'll never regret it because you know because you're helping so many other people like saved a lot like when I went public a lot of people like and like saved animals from like my parents and like rescue organizations were able to like do stuff so it's like there's like a win and of course like you find the positive and then I get it you know and I think like it doesn't have to be that it happened for a reason then to now it's just like you're taking this situation that you grew up in and something that you dealt with you know when you're you're finding the positives that you can turn from it yeah and the main thing I've even just learned in like therapy and stuff that helped me is like a perspective shifts of like just taking everything not as black and white like it's not oh well I I'm so like mean and like going against my parents but it's like multiple things can exist like that's like the main thing I have learned that's helped me is like two or more truths can coexist like especially in complicated situations like this I can love and care and want the best for my parents and it's clear that you know yeah like while also like mutually like saying this is not like this is not okay you cause me harm and like I need accountability for it yeah and you're continually causing animals harm yeah and it's like you can it angers me like and it's like people you say like oh you get it like it's like oh you got educated and now it's like and actually there's nothing to do with my degree yeah I'd say like it's all about like even like I'd say like how people say like when they have children and that breaks the cycle like I don't know if that'll ever be my journey or not but like my animals have done that for me like taking care of them and like realizing how simple like like yes of course like I get annoyed having to walk my dog whatever like in the rain and knowing things like but I like could never imagine treating like them the way that my parents have and like justifying it like it just that's the thing that will never make sense to me no matter how much I love my parents no matter how much I feel feel as though they love me, that's like the thing I'll never be able, you know, to make sense and connect the dots for. And it's because it's not my responsibility to do that. It's theirs to like take accountability to say like, like, and even then it's like, this is why like, and I'd understand. Like that's the sad part is like, I understand even like what led my parents to this, but like, it doesn't excuse for the. I was gonna say to you know that the thing is is, you know, maybe in some way they did their best with their children, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable. Yeah, and like, that's where it's like, that truly is like something my therapist has definitely said where it's like, yeah, like, and that's where like the two are more true-s thing, like helps so much. It's like, they can do their best while I can also be like, that best was not good enough for me. Like that's allowed to exist. Yeah, because growing up, it was like black and white. I was like, okay, it could be worse. So my parents are good people. Like, you know, it was so easy to justify and no, it's not, you know, I'm so grateful that you speak out about your story, you know, I think that it's so important. I still think obviously it's a topic that you hear about, but it's not really often, I feel like talked about in such depth and detail. And maybe when it is, it's people that are older and have had more time to process it. So I must feel like that's kind of what I was saying before of like the fact that you are younger. I feel like you become this advocate for other young kids and people that are going through it. And I think it gives people a different perspective of like what I just said of, you know, having this balance of knowing in your mind, like, okay, maybe my parents have an issue and a mental illness. And this is their best, but that doesn't make it right. And that doesn't mean that I need to say silent about it, you know, because in the grand scheme of things by you speaking out about your experience and situation, it helps more people than by staying silent and hearing, you know, guilt and shame and whatever else comes with it. Yeah. And it's like, it's truly is. It's like I want the best for everyone. It's like the people like me, the parents of children like me, like I want them to want the best for themselves, like, and to like live a better life. Like this isn't healthy for anyone involved in the situation. Yeah. Well, you did amazing. Thank you so much.