Growing up Duggar, 19 Kids and Counting, and cutting my dad out of my life w/ Amy Duggar King & Dillon King

- My uncle used to be like, "This is Amy, "and she was born out of wedlock." (laughing) - Did you see like that? - I wore jeans for heaven's sakes. I mean, I was a walking sin. - What was filming shiny happy people like? - It was eye opening for me. - He didn't know, I got the biggest education of the IVLP during that. - They don't teach the word abuse. They literally teach that women should stay meek, mild, and silent. In my heart of hearts, I kinda knew that something was off. I reached out to my uncle and I just said, "Hey, is she okay?" - Only I just showed up at our house, asking us questions about your son. - What the heck is going on? - We sat down with Amy Dugger King and her husband Dylan from the hit TV show, "19 Kids in Counting." As a Dugger, Amy was exposed to the cult-like teachings of the IVLP and opened up about it in a recent Amazon documentary. And in her new book, "Holy Disruptor," she unpacks her childhood. We talk about her rough relationship with her uncle Jim Bob, not getting paid for her involvement in the TV show and her decision to cut her father out of her life all on today's episode. - Amy Dugger King and Dylan King, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. - We're really excited to be here. Talk to you guys. - I'm excited as well. I was watching a documentary that you guys were in two years ago, "Shiny Happy People," and was just blown away by what I was hearing. 'Cause some of this stuff, when it comes to IVLP, when it comes to cults in America, I just grew up not thinking that was even a thing. I think my eyes really open to just some stories and I hope we can talk about today and hopefully help some people that might be disentangling, leaving a cult or having a family member and they're working through something like that. But yeah, what was filming "Shiny Happy People" like? - When Amazon Prime calls you, you answer that phone call? - Yeah. - So it was just like, hey, we're working on this documentary. We'd love for you to be a part of it. I think it was eye-opening. I think it was liberating. I think it helped a lot of people. I think it's still helping a ton of people. It's eye-opening for me. - Yes, he did know how the things. - I got the biggest education, like dump, of the IVLP during that whole entire show. - So you had no idea. - I mean, I knew a little bit, obviously, from like her, her family, that kind of thing, but they were asking questions and I was like, like, so like, if you're watching it, like my expressions of me being like what, they do that? That's real. I'm not that's not faking. Like I learned stuff through shooting the show like in the moment. So even like, even like we went back after we got, after everything was done, we went back and actually watched it. I mean, I watched it, we went, what? Like, where was that at? How did that happen? So like, it was a massive education for me. - And Amy, fill people in, 'cause when I first saw your book came out, I was like, wait, I didn't, I thought all the, all the duggers had J names. Like, where did Amy come from? So like, kind of fill people in on like, your relation to the family and how, like, how you were on the show back in the day. - Yeah, so I am the cousin, my maiden name growing up in elementary school and all that was Amy Dugger. And then I was on the show, kind of by accident. And I talk about that in my book, but basically, I was asked, I'll just do me to tell you the story of what happened. - Yeah, yeah, fill it in. - Okay, so my grandma invited me to the house. I was gonna pick her up for an appointment. And she was like, no, no, no, you need to come inside. You know, I need you in here. Well, it was when they were filming, the camera was going on, all the things. And I've always stayed away from, you know, all that. It's just, that's their life. Do you know, I understand. Like, I never wanted to really be a part of it. Never asked, nothing like that. And so I walked in and it was when my uncle was asking, who wants to be the chaperone for Josh and Anna. And in that moment, I mean, can I just be honest? They're like, grown adults. They don't need a babysitter, right? I mean, you don't need a babysitter if you're like, gonna be engaged, right? Yeah. And so I kind of like laughed a little bit. I kind of was just like, and I just, I just, I could not help it. And the producer noticed it. And he was like, who are you? And I was like, I'm Amy. I'm just trying to get to Grandma's room. And he was like, huh, why don't you jump on camera? And that's really how the whole thing began. Which is wild. So when you first started filming on the show and making appearances, you weren't like under contract. There wasn't anything signed. It was just like, you're on the show. And then all that like legal stuff happened after the fact. Right. Yeah, I was on the show for probably about a month before it ever dawned on me. Like, oh, wait a second, I need to probably sign something or whatever. And so yeah, a contract was set my way. And I signed it kind of blindly. So I want to say you've spoken about that contract and what you signed. It seemed from what I read and heard. You didn't really know what you were signing. When did you find out what the contract actually said? Yeah, I signed it. I trusted my uncle thinking that he would have my best interest at heart. I was young. I couldn't afford a lawyer, that kind of thing. And I knew that he's already dealt with contracts. And he was just so well spoken and full of wisdom and that kind of thing. That I was like, OK, this is going to be-- he's going to have really good insight and great advice. And I think it could have gone a little better because what I signed, what I signed, was no payment at all for being involved in it. And that I would just film whenever they needed me. Whoa. So there were times where you were asked to film when you were like, I had other plans. I wasn't planning on being at the house this day. Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely, there was a schedule. I think on Tuesdays and Thursdays were the days that we did interviews. Then we filmed in that kind of thing. But there were trips that lasted a week or two weeks sometimes. And in those moments, we need you. And I'm like, OK. And so which was crazy because I couldn't really keep a full-time job, but I was a nanny on the side. And so I worked with like 20 different families in the area who understood my crazy life. And so I could just leave at a drop of the hat and then come back and help them whenever I was back. So it worked out. But I mean, yeah, there was sometimes where I was like, how am I going to pay for gas to even get to the house? How did you find out that you weren't getting paid for the show? Did you know when you signed that contract that you knew there was no payment at all? No, I didn't know until maybe like a week later. And I just started to like-- I don't even remember how it happened. I was talking to my grandma one day. And I was just like, I don't think this is a good thing that I signed. And so she had a lawyer look at it, a family friend. And they were like, oh, yeah, this is way more involved than you thought. Yeah. Was someone from the network involved in this signing? Or was it simply just your family that was involved in using the paperware? Yeah, they sent it over. They're like emailed, like the network emailed over. And then my uncle presented it to me, that kind of thing. And I'll be honest, the network was great. They really were great people to work with. And I really enjoyed it. But at the same time, I probably should have hired a lawyer to look at the contract. Well, I always say like some network. Because even the network, if you read like Jill's book-- Yeah. Yeah, which was amazing. It kind of breaks it down too. The whole thing is the network was doing what agreement they had with Jim Bob, right? So they sent the stuff to Jim Bob. Jim Bob gave it to all the different kids. Obviously going through Jill's book, it's now kind of public that didn't happen. Right, Jim Bob never passed anything down to the kids. So it's kind of the same format that happened with her. Like, it feels like, hey, here's the deal. Like, is either get casted or you have papers that basically like you sign like a release form for me on the show? Yeah, actually. You know, she got a contract basically that was casted. Yeah. Which went to Jim Bob and then Jim Bob, you know, to the kids. Yeah. Tell me more about Chinese happy people as well. Because I think at least from my generation and like people my age, like I would say, like that was like a big realization of what happened on the show, learning about how this show essentially promoted IBLP teachings. Talk to me more about that or maybe fill people in on, you know, people out there that don't know what that is. Yeah. So IBLP is a teaching. They have a leader named Bill Gawtherd. There's a lot of good things in the IBLP if I'm going to be really honest with you. There's a lot of good things as far as like they, you know, home and being family oriented and just loving each other. And there's a lot of stuff like that. But what they don't teach and the things that are scary is that they don't teach like the word abuse. They don't teach like if someone is, you know, hurting you or disrespecting you, don't speak up. They literally teach that women should stay meek, mild and silent. And so when someone already has that in their family origin, something's going on with the brother or dad or grandpa or whatever, they're taught not to say anything. And so, and they're not allowed to get counseling. So let's say something with the note, there's no counseling. Like, yeah, no, they don't believe in like outside counseling. They believe that you have to talk to like an IBLP member and you have to talk within your circle because the outside world is scary and harmful and sinful. And that could lead you away from God. And so it's just really sad. If there's already like someone that has a, has a, you know, a really big problem and they do something that is going to hurt someone, right? And it's emotional abuse, it's physical abuse, it's sexual abuse, it could be anything. And if it doesn't talk about, then it's shame, it's guilt. And, you know, someone is just broken. - So Amy, growing up, you weren't a part of the IBLP, but you saw your cousin. and your family that was, how did your parents talk to you about that? - Yeah, my mom is the one that was just like, hey, listen, like what they do over in this house is what they do, but we love them. And, you know, we respected it, I respected it, growing up, you know, I, it was a whole different kind of world. It really was, you guys. There was classical music playing, kids are playing chess. - But class is actually so dope, though. Like you walk into a house, it's like this big compound, this whole family, they're listening to classical music. It's playing, one of the kids is playing it on the piano. Is that how people would be playing piano? - Like why? - In most of the kids' play. - In like singing hymns. - Wait, that's actually so dope. - It was so relaxing, it was so relaxing. And so it was just like, wow, like people live like this. This is amazing. - Wait, why do I love the idea of teaching our kids how to play instruments that we can, we can just make music. - Yes, it does start like that, though babe. - We put that in, you don't want 19 of them. - Well, if you want, but- - I mean maybe you knew. - I mean, you know. - Up to that we have two kids and I'm like real like, the more kids we have, we have two and they get along so well. So fingers crossed that, like I always say that way. But like I would love to have a big family. Like it just, it seems like a party, you know? - It, oh, and it was. There was a lot of good moments. That's what makes it hard. - Yeah. - Isn't it, it was like, if it was a lot of like gray moments and like really happy moments, and funny moments, and like sliding down a political sign on the hill, like in the snowy hill, like using the political signs as like the sled. - Wait, wait, wait, like the opposite political sign? - Yeah. - Oh my God. Wait, I've never heard of that. That's actually hilarious. - Yes, they're very slick and they work very well. - Wow. - I can imagine. - Yeah, that actually makes them up into a pretty like, a racing sled. - Oh my God. - Yes, yes, you're good. - Yeah, you're really good. - So like you just grew up spending a lot of time with your cousins and you, and you knew them really, like were they the closest people to you as a child? Would you say, or would you have like other family that was closer? - Yeah, no, definitely they were the closest. But the thing is, is that we were all in a room. We would spend so much time together. We had tons of trips, all the stuff. But it was more surface level. - Okay. - It wasn't really heartfelt. We never really talked about the things we were struggling with, or what God was doing in our life, or whatever it would be. It just wasn't ever talked about. It was more of just like what's, you know what the show was doing, and you know, just house the weather, and I like your skirt, and that kind of stuff. - I feel like that. - I'd be able to teach you those too. - Sure. - Like if you're not in that circle, they keep you at arm's leak reach, right? Like you're not in the circle. - Yeah. - 'Cause it's like a club. (laughing) - You know what I mean? - It's a club. - And we're not in the club. You know what I mean? Being like out of the club, and maybe, you know, I'm guessing you might have, it's like, yeah, listen to music that they weren't allowed to listen to, or you know, dressed in a certain way that they didn't dress. Did your cousins ever ask you questions growing up about like why you lived differently than they did? - No, not necessarily. I think they all knew that like I was, I was considered the wild one. - Okay. - Like literally my title on the show was Crazy Cousin Amy. As you know, as you get that title, like-- - I have no idea how I received that title. I watched the show one night, and it popped up by my name. And I was like, oh my word, what is this? Yeah, yeah, I had no idea. 'Cause I'm not wild, and I'm not that crazy. - Like it literally said, like the words on the screen were Crazy Cousin Amy. - Yeah. - Like rather than just like Amy and parentheses cousin. - Yeah, right. - Interesting. Do you think it was like a producer that was like, okay, this is a fun way to market this person? - Maybe, I mean, I definitely had like a bubbly personality. And like it was very, like it was very different compared to like my cousins who, you know, did they just live differently than me? - Yeah. - But I wasn't like, you can take wild in any kind of way, right? I mean, that could be like, ooh, she's trouble, she's wild, we pray for her soul, you know, that kind of thing, or it could be like, she's fun. You can take wild in all kinds of different ways. And so I didn't really like that title too much, 'cause I was just like, what about like, you know, fun Amy or something? - Yeah, but your upbringing was totally different from your cousins, right? - Completely different. - Because like, like you said, you had the last name, Dugger, growing up, which was, correct me from wrong, your mom's name, that was something that took me while to understand, I was confused about all that. - Yeah, a lot of people think that I changed my name to Dugger in order to like, be more liked or to have more fame or popularity. And I'm like, this is just bit by made in name. Like, I can't do anything about it, I can't change that, you know, but people, they're gonna think what they want, you know, that's just part of it. - You just said it straight. - Okay, you said it straight. - You gotta post Amy's, you gotta post like a first, a first certificate photo, right? Here's the proof, people, I'm not making this up. - Here it is, this is my actual name. - Yes, yes, exactly. - Well, her mom had Amy out of wedlock, and so her mom, Deanna is Jimbub's sister. - Okay. - That's where the Dugger name is at. - God, when Amy was born, Deanna wasn't married to the man, obviously. And so you naturally would take your mother's name. - Right. - Yeah, that's how that's why she has the Dugger last name. - And my mom and dad dated for like 22 years, you guys. And yeah, yeah. And so by the time that they got married, I was senior year in high school. And they, I mean, I was gonna have another name change, you know, so I was like, I'll just wait till I get married. Did she change it again? - Yeah, that would be where I actually knew somebody in high school who changed their name, and it threw me off 'cause I was like, why would you want to, like, why would you want to do that? - There were different names. Like, yeah, no, that's just, yeah. - I think they like, they were officially adopted by their stepdad, which is like cool for them. But I was like, if that were me, I would have just like, hey, it's probably gonna, I guess it's a guy, my name wouldn't change. - I think I also managed your relation to your father or your like stepfather at that point, which-- - Yeah, I had a buddy that changed his name because his father, like, they did not get along at all. - Oh, shoot. - Yeah. - And like, it was so bad, like, his dad moved to a different state, and he was like, I don't even want the same name as him. - Gosh. - And so he changed his name back, I mean, back in life. - I guess you can change your name to whatever, right? - I think you can, legally, if you want to. - Your last name. - I think. - There's a friends episode about it. - I don't know why you can. You just apply for it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Wow, that's just something that's never crossed my mind. - It's never, never, never. - It's true, I know. - It's different than, like, writing your birth certificate for your kid. - It's kind of like a big screw to your family, so man, you can do it. - Yeah. - Just put it up. - Yeah, whatever. - I guess you can. That was actually my next question. It was like, did you change your name, but no, you just-- - I did it. - That was your-- - Yeah. - On the book, people put Amy Dugger King, because that was how people associated me with. - God, it got it. - But my middle name is Rochelle. - Okay. - Okay. - Okay. - I don't-- I guess I'm like, Amy Dugger King is kind of everywhere, I guess, right now. But I'm like-- - That makes sense. Well, we debated when you did your book, whether it was going to be Amy King, or Amy Dugger King. - Yeah. - And, like, I mean, basically, he came down to, like-- - Everybody-- - One conversation with the K.O. to know that, and they're like, "No." - Everyone knows you as Amy Dugger. - Yeah. - I mean, that's how they know you. - Yeah. - So I was like, "Okay." - I get that though. I still, I'll see people post on, like, Facebook or Instagram from high school, and I'm like, "Who is this person?" And I'm like, "Their last name changed?" - Yeah. - I'm like, "Are you serious?" And I'm like, "Oh, that's right. They got married. Like, that's how this works." - Thank you to Kachava for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. - This season is chaotic for everyone, I think. Everyone's like, "How do you do it?" And I'm always like, "Bizzy." And I just sound like such a dad, would I say that? - Why a dad? - Why a dad? - I don't know. I just feel like that's the dad standard answer to that question. But it's true. There's so much going on. And I feel like something that I really rely on during this type of season is a breakfast I can count on. And I have been having Kachava every single morning, because Kachava makes getting whole-body nutrition easier during the holiday chaos. - I'm a big fan of the chai flavor. They also have it in vanilla, as well as, isn't it like a coconut one? - That's the one that I have every day. Coconut Asahi. - Coconut Asahi. - Yeah. - Not your favorite flavor. - That's my favorite right now. I like a lot of them. They have some unique ones like Matt saying, "Chai, I don't see that a lot." But it's really good. And what I like about the coconut Asahi is it makes well with water. - Kachava is a whole-body meal with plant-based protein that actually tastes delicious. With every two scoops of Kachava, you get 85-plus super foods, nutrients, and plant-based ingredients. - Yes, enjoy 25 grams of 100% plant-based protein in any of their six indulgent flavors. Chocolate vanilla, chai, matcha, coconut Asahi, and strawberry. If you're looking for a plant-based protein, trust me, we've tried a lot. This is the way to go. - Calm the holiday chaos. Go to kachava.com and use code unplanned for 15% off your next order. That's kachava-k-a-c-h-a-v-a-dot-com code unplanned for 15% off. - I didn't have a problem changing my name. I was excited for it. I was excited too. - And I loved my family too. I didn't have this, I didn't have that conflict that some people feel like. They're like, "I love my family and I want to still have this like connection." - Yes. - But they understood. I think they knew that I was always going to change it. - Yeah. - I was going to say I don't care, but then I heard what you said about the whole one name uniting thing and I kind of liked that. - Yeah. I feel like there's like a level of respect that happens when like, you're just like, "I love you enough that like now we are a family." - Right. - I know. - Right. - I think that's special. - And it's sweet for your kids and too. They have like their family name that they're apart and it's not like, "I'll have to pick mom or dad or anything like that." - That would be all the strange. - That would, yeah. - Or I guess you'd choose your former birth because you got to give them a name. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Then who's the kids go with? - Yeah, I know. - It's hard. - Dude, I know and my American families, I think they do a hyphenated one. - Yeah. - I think they have both. - They have a very long name. - They do. - Yes. - That's actually really cool too. - Yeah. - So you have to sign it. it takes like a year to get out of here. - You became famous and then you have to sign that long name. - No, that's why they all go with nicknames. - Oh yeah, that's why they just make sure my goodness. - Okay, so your parents dated for 22 years. They didn't get married until you were senior in high school and you had a very different upbringing than your cousins. So, like, talk to me about that. What was your childhood like? What was it like, you know, being raised, but? - It is even interesting here and you describe like, your mom had you out of wedlock. Like, that phrase is not one that you hear a lot. - I know. It's a total douger phrase. I'm gonna be really honest with you, wedlock. - That's what they used to call it. My uncle used to be like, this is Amy and she was born out of wedlock. - What else do you call that? - Wait, she would introduce you. - That's how I'm always known. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But like, why would you need to say that though? - I guess it's, yeah, it's kind of a-- - That's an old traditional thing. - I think so. - I thought it was just a family thing. - Like, I don't know. - We have friends that have kids and they, like, we've interviewed people on this podcast that they have children together but they're not married. - Yeah. - So like, if I were to introduce them to someone, I would just be like, hey, this person, this is my friend's blank and blank and this is their kid. Like, you know, like, since though, I would have been like, they had their kids without getting married. Like, I would have lead with that, you know? - I guess it makes sense though in like the, like, the sense of what we're talking about. 'Cause then it would get kind of confusing why her name was Dugger versus her father's name of the last name of Jordan, right? - Yeah. - I guess if you say it out of wedlock, then it makes more sense 'cause if you were married, I guess traditionally you just think you would, like, the man's last name, right? Like, maybe, I don't know. - The reason I point it out is just 'cause it feels like it's attaching you to like, a perceived sin. - Yeah. - Right then, like, always. And I just wonder what that's like growing up, just being like, yeah, right? - I might not, I'm technically not supposed to be here. Like, what does that feel like? Do you feel that way? Am I just perceiving it this way? - I love you. - No, I felt that way several times. You know, here I am. They're, they've got such a wonderful life. And I'm just like, hey, I'm just the wild card over here. So yeah, it was definitely odd. And I just kind of, I've always been different. And, but different's not bad, you know? But yeah, it's been, it's been a wildred. - It's been a wildred. - Yeah, I just, yeah. - That is just such a, that's something that stands out to me because it is something that you don't hear a lot. And I just wonder what it's like, like, living your life, like, attached with this, like, thing that you're like, I wasn't even like part of this. I was just born in this circumstance. But then you're also compared with like, quote unquote, idyllic, like, family structure, family standards. And I guess comparison would be something that I would imagine would be like, a struggle through that. - Yeah, no, it definitely was. How could it not be? Okay, I mean, my mom and dad, they had the most rollercoaster relationship. There was, I mean, I cannot even tell you how many fights and how, and how really unhealthy it was. And not even just that, but it also became like, threats and emotional abuse. And there was just a lot going on. So I would go over there for like a safe haven, really. And kind of feel like, okay, I can breathe here, you know? And, yeah, in those moments, it's like, man, like what did I get? Like, this is so nice, you know? I mean, like you said, like the classical music and the kids playing and no one argued, no one was allowed to, no one slammed doors, no one got mad, no one could get angry or, you know, throw any kind of attitude whatsoever. And so it was just like, wow, this is so nice over here. - Mm-hmm. - So that's how I grew up. Just, they knew me, they loved me, but they kind of kept me like, we love, we love you. You know, kind of thing. 'Cause I wasn't necessarily just like them. I wore jeans for heaven's sakes. - Did you wear jeans to their house? - I did. - Okay, I did. There was a couple times that when I was younger, they would ask me to wear skirts. And I did, I've tried on panel looms before. I've tried on one of their swimsuit jumpsuits before. - What is the panel research? - We know. - No, no, no, the skirts they could wear in the pool, right? - No, no, the panel looms are like pirate-caught-need pants that you wear underneath your skirts that they did. - Why would that be exactly that? - That was my question. Why would you wear pants under the skirts? - Because they need more coverage. - A coverage. - Whoa. - Yeah. - 'Cause the skirts are already down to their ankles already. - I didn't even realize that was, I guess when you think about like Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, they're wearing pants. - I didn't realize I knew that was either. - Right there, the caught-need little billowy. - So you actually wore those in real life sometimes? - Well, I mean, when I was little, yes. Just to appease my family and to show that I do respect their values and their rules. - Which is dope. - There were a lot of them. There was a lot of rules. - This is reminding me of my grandma. - Yeah. - My grandma married her brother-in-law and all of their side of the family were men and-night. - You said your grandma married her brother-in-law. - Right, no, my grandma married and her brother-in-law after marriage. - Yeah, we're married. - Men and-night. - So you don't like the omniscient thing? - Yeah, omniscient. - Yeah, omniscient. - And so she would, she would wear the long skirts for a while and then she was kind of like, okay, we all know that like, at my heart, I'm not like, I'm not, we're not prescribing to the same types of like convictions here. And so she's like, I, I'm gonna give this up. Everyone, are we okay with this? And I do remember, she told me she was like, it was like a little bit of a weighty decision to like then just like express myself what felt like true and right for me when everyone else had like a different standard for themselves. - Yeah, I think that's dope. Like, I think it's cool maybe at first to respect the values, but at the same time like, you're your own individual. I know it's like not really the same thing, but when I went to Turkey recently, I visited a mosque and like, they asked to respect for the mosque 'cause it's religious place to wear, like I wore a skirt inside the mosque as a man. But like, yeah, someone's house isn't a religious, like, you know, place- - It felt like it. - Oh, but it did, oh, but it did, okay. (laughing) - It didn't change, it was taller than that, at times. - Well, that's how you, I mean, your mom would make you, you couldn't wear jeans to your family. - Yeah, but I do remember, I, we gave that one up too. - So you eventually started wearing jeans. - I wore jeans and they had holes in them, so it was very, very, very, very- - So did you spend like time like with men and I? - Holiday, yeah. - Yeah, okay. - Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's still it. - Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. - I wouldn't do that with your men and I family. - How was the food? - That has to be, why are we not, you know, we're gonna have families. - Because, they, literally, all they do is like cook. - Right? - They would convert it. - I bet they're in, I bet, I bet it is so good. - There's a restaurant. - It is so good. - It's amazing. - No, hungry. - No, no, no, I'm not. - There's a restaurant going towards Oklahoma that's like an omnis, like, full-blown restaurant, and every time we drive to Oklahoma, we stop in there and eat, 'cause it's always good. - Oh, I bet it's amazing. - Yeah, they're corn, they're, I'm like, where are you going? - They're growing, - They're growing this corn. - And the people are always so nice, right? - I don't know. - That's special scenes, they're corn, they're dessert, - I don't know, let's see if they like that. - That's where it is. - The whole, all this mafia. - No, don't talk about that. - Hey, keep that up. - That's a whole different thing. We're not talking about that. - They're not that loud. - They're not people. - That's right. - They are, they are. - They are. - There's always good people in all groups. - No, so yeah, it definitely felt like a whole year than now. - Yeah. - I definitely felt like, oh, she's wearing, I remember the first time I wore jeans over there, and I was like, I'm doing it. This, here we go, like walking in the door, like I can do all things, you know? And just being real, you know, I don't like fake. - I would have been so intimidated doing that. - I would have just kept wearing the skirts. - Yeah, I don't know what to do. - I don't know, I don't know what to see when it's hurting. (laughing) - Well, if you look at my video of me getting a hair transplant in Turkey, I definitely wore skirts there. - Oh, did you? - I did, I did, yeah. - Oh my goodness. - At our respects. - Yeah, that's right, that's good. - Okay. - Well that's good. - Did you get to watch that video? - No. - No. - Okay, that's fine. - I'm gonna have rocked a kill before. - You have home right now. - I know, maybe I saw it. - A kill like a skirt, like a manly skirt, but yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - I've done the kill, I've done the kill. - You've worn the kill? - I've done it, I've worn the kill. - I don't, I've worn the kill. - How do you get out of the kill? - I've been wearing it for 10 years and I never knew that about that. - I don't wanna talk about you introducing him to this scene. - Oh, dear Lord. - I've only heard some of the stories, but like, did you, had you known about the IBLP before you met Amy? - No. - Okay. - No. - I didn't know really anything about me. He met me when I was filming, we met at a bar. - Just mutual friends. - And you were filming at the time? - I was filming, I was, I know. - Did they have any episodes of you at the bar? That had been so hard. It's like, meanwhile, crazy comedy. - I'm not your man, I thought that's what you meant. - All right, meanwhile, I will take a shot at the bar. (all laughing) - Don't ever go to such a good spin-off show, though. Like, it could be real. - I'll tell you. - Like, the contrast is family. Like, you got the, everyone's playing piano, looking at the clapping music, and you're over here at a bar, like drinking shots, meeting your husband. - It's in the book, man. The first time we met, I insulted her. She was like, whoa, and I was like, let's get shots, and that's how it started. - I was like, okay, that's how it started. - We actually were like best friends for like six years. So when I came to like, you know, dating him, and I was like, okay, it's kind of getting serious. Maybe she made my family. We were at this like, rock and bowl place. It was like, globe bowling. - That's why. - Yeah, it was called Fast Lands. And there was, all my cousins were bowling, and they don't dance, right? They do not, they don't move their body in that way. - We've talked about Dunger Weddings before. - Yeah, okay. - It was really fun, when we were hanging with, Jared, Jeremy, we were posing them on like, just movies, everyone in the US would know. - I saw that episode, I laughed so hard. - It was so much fun. - Yes, yeah, there's like, - She know the Wizard of Oz. - Yeah. - Come on. - That's so clean. - You gotta show your kids the Wizard of Oz. You should ask about our wedding. 'Cause that's how her side of the family left our wedding very quickly when we flip this. - We can talk about it. We can talk about it. - Okay, okay, okay. - So when he first met them, he walked in, and there was some music playing, whatever, and they all, so he walked in, and he was like, "Hey!" He's like, "Dancing." - I didn't know the rules. - I didn't know the rules. - They all were looking his way, and literally turned their backs. And did not say hi. - Like all like dominoes. - Did not say like back turns. - Back turns. And I was like, and he was like, "What did I do? "What did I do? "What did I do?" - I was ignorant. I had no idea. - So you didn't prepare him at all. - I did say nothing. - No. - I let him sink or swim. - And he walked out of the deep end. - Straight down. - You gotta know, you did him dirty. I feel like, if I would have met your men in that family, you would have been like, "Okay, Matt, you're not." - You're not taking your shirt off, okay? - Yeah, the shirt's in. - No dancing. - Yeah, all right. I might have been in the middle of the dance circle at her homecoming. - She did nothing. - She did nothing, just start dating. She would have been like, "Matt, like I want you to be "on your best being here." - There was one time that you guys, he another time, he went to the house, and one of the little girls was like, "What's your favorite color?" And I'm sitting across from him at the table. - They're most sinful color, ever. - And he was like black. - And he was like, "Why is black your favorite color?" (laughing) - Okay, okay, so I played guitar since I was in early teens. My dad has always had a hot rod shot, right? So anything from classic muscle cars, to guitars, to anything that, like-- - It's like band stuff. - You got a point. - I race motorcycles, so all the different things that I like and interested in, like blacks, just a good looking color on it. - I agree. - Okay. - Like a blacked out 68 Camaro is like-- - That's it. - Like he just really likes that color. Anyway, it's like matte black, all the things. And so the little girl, the little girl-- - It's called murdered out, right? - The little girl. - Like black everything else. - Yeah. - Just black it out, so good. - So the little girl was like, and he was like, "What, black looks good on all kinds of things." And I kept kicking him underneath the table, and I was like, "Quit." And he was like, "What?" And he's not good at like catching up on like, the things-- - I am. I'm just very blunt about it. I'm just telling him what I'm doing wrong. I don't care if I'm sitting here. I'm not picking up on like my little like stumps. He's like, "What, what are you trying to say?" Anyway, and so, literally, he goes, "Black is sexy, black is sexy." - Oh, no. - You're like, "You just made it way worse." - Yes. - Again, she walked me right into Morador. - I was so sad. - If you know, we're not Lord of the Rings. - Walk me right in there without saying nothing. - Man. - So you were never invited back to the house after that. - Well, honestly, that's when kind of the scandals took place. - Oh no. - And so they don't really know Dylan, like I know Dylan. - I don't think they would know me regardless. - Well, you know. - 'Cause they keep even you at arm's late reach. - Yeah. - Well. - And I know what opinion they have with me. So they're deaf. But they're keeping me of like, do your three arms length. - You're so gay. I'm married. - I'm married, right? - Yeah. I just hate that so much. Like it just makes me sad for like all that to be public. And then for people to be talking about it. And then just like, it's just awful. I hate that. - It's been really crazy and really sad. And there's been a lot of stuff that's gone. So yeah, I kind of just, I'm just real in my book. You know, I'm just like, here's all the crap. And here's how I've healed. And here's how life goes on, you know. The door's always open. I even put that in my book. There's a little note that I left to my cousins and I just said, you know, if you were ever interested in really getting to know the real me, like I'm always here for you. - So you didn't feel like they ever got to really know who you are, who Amy is. - I really feel like it. No, I mean, on the show we were doing all kinds of funny things and they had me doing, you know, I mean, I was riding in a dump truck with bagels all over me, feeding, you know, animals, zoo animals and jumping out of, I don't know, a plane and riding a pig and doing crazy stuff all the time because that was my character. - Yeah. - That they didn't really get to see, like, I think my true heart. - Yeah. - Thank you to ZockDock for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. - Recently, I needed to get a refill on my ADHD medication and you know where I went guys, I went to ZockDock. - Every time. - Yep, I actually used ZockDock to get officially diagnosed. Was that, oh, almost two years ago now? It's been a while and it's been amazing actually having a diagnosis from a real doctor and understanding myself more. If you don't know what ZockDock is, it's a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. You can book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty. - Think about how convenient that is. You just get on their app, you're connected with a doctor and sometimes you can even score same day appointments where you're literally meeting with a doctor either in person or from the comfort of your own home, instantly. - Yes, that's actually what I did when I got a concussion last year. I had a same day appointment and it was super helpful. - Yes, we've had many ZockDock appointments and what's great is that you can even filter for doctors who take your insurance, who are located nearby and are a good fit for any medical need you may have and who are highly rated by verified patients. Appointments made through ZockDock happen fast, too. Typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking, you can even score same day appointments like we said earlier. - I use ZockDock and you should too. Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to zockdock.com/unplanned to find an instantly book, a top-rated doctor today. That's zocdoc.com/unplanned. ZockDock.com/unplanned. (upbeat music) - How has that been? I know you are now like friends with Jill and you and Jill, your friends, you've mentioned earlier, your friends, I mean, your kids, sorry. You and Jill are friends and your kids play together, they're friends. - Yes. - How did that relationship come to be? - So, honestly, after grandma passed away, my uncle told me Jill was already kind of backing herself away kind of having some more boundaries set with the family. And he said to me, you know, you need to reach out to Jill. I think she's kind of going down maybe a wrong path and you guys need to, maybe you can reach out and connect with her. 'Cause he already thinks I'm probably going on a wrong path anyway, you know? And so I reached out one day and I was just like, hey, I'm here. If you ever need a talk, I'm here, whatever you need. And she was like, hey, 'cause, do you know where the nearest tattoo parlour is? Which one would you recommend? And I was like, what? And I called her and we just really connected. - Did you guys get tattoos together? - No, but I would love to. Jill, you hear that? I hope she's watching. - Did you know that we have matching tattoos together? - Oh, I have tattoos too. - Oh, you guys have matching ones? - We do, yeah. - We do, yeah. - So, okay, it says, rest in the storm. - Yeah, mine's in here. - And his, his on his floor is forearm. Says, yeah, rest in the storm. - That's so cool. - Yeah. - I'm actually thinking about getting another one because this is really sad, we don't have to talk about this, but yeah, we lost our daughter two months ago. And I don't think about making a tattoo to remember her. And so, my dad-- - Actually, I was gonna say Jill reached out. - I would do it. - That's sweet. - I think that did go. - I love that. - Jill reached out at that time right after she heard the news and she had so many resources for us, which was really incredible. - Yeah. - So nice and incredible. - She's the sweetest. I actually asked her what, like, I gave you guys a little gift beforehand. And she was like, get them something that, you know, a small and like, what, you know what, something they would love. And like, so yeah, she kind of helped me. That was sad. - That was so nice. - Yeah, that's really sweet. - Just, yeah, I can never imagine that pain. And I'm truly so sorry about what you guys have gone through. - Thank you, yeah. And I will say all of the duggers we know reached out at that time, which was very sweet. - No, yeah, you were every single one. - Like, so much empathy and kindness. - I loved that. - It was really sweet. - I was probably traveling. But I am here now. - No, no, no, no. - I'm seriously, thank you so much. - No, thank you for giving us a gift. That was very thoughtful. - No, of course, no. - Yeah, I guess my question is, you know, so you're, now that you're hanging out with Jill and you guys have like this friendship, what, like, what are you learning from that? What does that taught you? - Oh my word, 'cause in ship is so much fun. Like, we can joke around and laugh. And we have inside jokes. And just to know that like, my child, our child, is safe in their presence. And that their kids have spent the night with us. And like, we, you know, take care of them and love them and know what they like and the hobbies they have. - Yeah. - And all of that. It's just a different way of living compared to really what we had growing up. And so it's actual, like, true, like, true family. - Talk to me about how long it's been since you've seen maybe other family members like your uncle or your aunt or your other cousins, 'cause now that you and Jill are hanging, like, have you reached out or talked to any of them recently as well? - Um, no. Unfortunately, like, so when the scandals, the last scandal happened and it was just so heartbreaking, I realized I needed to have boundaries set with my family and the situation because of the lies and things that were told. And it's nothing against my cousins. It's just, it's one of those things that like, if I don't want to write a fence, you know? Like, I'm not one of these that's gonna, like, oh, I love you and them and everything's great 'cause it's not, you know? Like, I believe that anyone that lies to you like doesn't value you and doesn't respect you and they're, you know, that's not, it's a character flaw. That's a character flaw. Let's be honest. And so, unfortunately, I have not seen them in years. - When you say lies, are you talking about, Bye. Cousins or uncle like yeah, so when the scandals like took place I was told by my uncle That there was no true to the stories. There was no truth at all. There was no problems and I talk about it and there's a pattern that you see in my book of all the things that's gone down and He's maybe omitted or not told the entire truth When asked and it's been eye-to-eye. It's been in text messages It's been in all kinds of ways and so it's just like man like someone who has the inability to tell the truth is not someone I really need in my inner circle, you know, did you ever tell your uncle that you were writing this book? Or did you ever like talk with him or was there anything? No, no for me my healing journey It's actually pretty quick. Yeah, my healing journey is like is is my own, you know like yeah, they're a part of the story But it's not like a tell-all-dugger book, you know, I mean, it's my entire story from before I was born Until now and I really talk about like generational trauma and how to break like just toxic cycles within a family unit And so yes, they're mentioned. Yes, there's things that's gone on that's shaped who I am But I mean, they're not the entire story, you know, okay, I want to know more about that because I know there's a lot of good stuff in your book Like what what can you share about maybe those toxic cycles and how you were able to overcome them? I think for me, you know, I Reli heavily on my faith and I believe that like God is not the author of confusion and I believe when there's chaos When there's tension when there's lies when there's cover-ups when no one can really speak truth That's a huge red flag that something is off and I believe that you have to just trust your basic instincts You know, I feel like your body will tell you when something is off, you know, you get that like hunch of like something feels off, you know, and And so for me, I just had to like work through a lot I've had to forgive people that's never asked for forgiveness I've had to just have boundaries and learn, you know, the importance of it in order to keep, you know, my mental health Do it, you know, I'm okay. I'll keep our marriage strong and keep keep my son safe So it's it's been a it's been a journey. I want to ask so have growing up was a Really turbulent relationship. It sounds like with your father. Mm-hmm. Did it ever make you think like I don't ever want to get married Like I don't ever want to to like repeat the I don't want where you attach Attaching your experience with your father to like a potential husband ever because I feel like I've heard of people struggling that with that before where it's like You have this example of like the this the generational cycle yeah talking about like it's almost like Like an abuse at home. You kind of look for the same abuse when you get older or or your mindset is like that's the norm and it's okay And it's not okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah Or someone will like date someone and be like well, it's not as crazy as it used to be, you know like it's not yeah Yeah, yeah, but seriously, they'll be like oh like this abuse is different from like what I've experienced and so you know It's all right because it's not as bad as it used to be kind of thing for me No, I always wanted to be married. I'm a relationship type of girl and and I'm faithful and so for me it was just like I don't know. I knew that like better existed I just didn't realize it was my best friend of six years I didn't hide underneath my nose be a dire dime. I know in your book You talk a lot about your dad your relationship with him. What was it that made made things not good at home growing up? Oh goodness Anyone that has narcissistic abilities if you will Gosh You're never right You can never express your feelings when you do My dad had a fire that he kept burning at all times like a smoldering fire and he would throw Things that should never be in the trash, you know, he would make them burn and so necklaces clothing Dishes, distracts and anything that would set him off so it was basically like teeter tottering on egg shells Like my entire life. Yeah a lot of fear a lot of fear and he would tell me in detail really of how he wanted to Like in my life at times. So that was that was a threat. That was I for believe it was literally a threat I know several ways of how he said that he would how he would like There's a verbal threat made when I was in the house. Yeah, I would have I won't say the words I want to say right now on on your podcast, but Let's just say like I wanted to do what should be done in like a man's kind of mentality Yeah, when you see someone like hurting somebody else. Yeah, so He had a broken femur so we couldn't get out so yeah, I was I mean, I had a I had a car accident up I don't know early on a to our relationship But I was you know, I was late. I could move out of broken femur and they shoved 18 inch rod in my leg and so I was physically able to even get up to go and and and and protect protect stand up whatever how you really want to word it But yeah, her dad's a very abusive person in our opinion. Yeah I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, it was hard. It was really hard And then I think what really? Is like another layer of hurt really that I've had to heal from is that not only was my dad that way my Grimpaw was that way and then Feeling like my uncle was more of like a father figure at times and someone that I could look up to Really kind of turned out to not be someone that I could fully trust was really hard I had a lot of trust issues. I had to work through Talk to me about one of those stories you mentioned, you know things being thrown away in the trash Tell me tell me more like what's what's a story of something being thrown in the trash as as a way to I don't know Get back at you or I don't I guess I'm just curious how like what that exactly looked like. Yeah, so it was like a ticking time bomb my Dad, I remember a time where my mom was just in the breakfast, you know, just making eggs and She burned them. She wasn't paying attention. She burned them and I remember he was like, why can't you do anything? Right, you know use you know all the all the things you can imagine the things but ever said and He took the pan and the eggs and he threw them in the fire. He tore up the dish rag He would break the spatula Just anything that was associated with the eggs that all the eggs would be, you know cracked and and destroyed It was it would happen all the time about everything. It wasn't just one thing my favorite necklace is Very close was there something that you did that made like set him off or it was it just completely unprovoked No, it was completely unprovoked It definitely was just one of those things where we would be even watching a good movie like as a family in the living room And he would get up and be like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with you guys And he would start pacing the floor like just very like It's it was very just evil behavior. Was he alcoholic or was there anything? I mean, yes, he drank. I I noticed that there was some like hidden in the closet and stuff like that I don't know if I don't know. I really don't know It was just one of those things where I I didn't know what everything was called either I didn't educate myself on like, you know, that's gaslighting. That's love bombing That's I didn't know all the terms that you know abusers use until later and so I just had to protect my mom growing up I protected my mom from a lot. How did you do that? I mean protecting your mom as a child must be pretty intimidating Yeah, I I took on The burdens of like cleaning the house the way that he wanted to cooking the way that he wanted to Just making sure that I was in the car with them. My my dad was known for opening the car door in the middle of a highway and Just threatening to jump out that kind of stuff Yeah, so I was always just kind of there try to soften the blow, you know, yeah, like loving my mom so much I didn't want to give her like one ounce of pain. I was also putting like a third person in the room too Right, there's like if you look if you do like a bunch of studying like on Like people who that are abusive Most of the time they don't do it in front of everybody. Okay, right? Because like like if you were like if someone was gonna Abuse somebody like if I thought you or someone's strong enough to stand up to me Most of the time an abuser isn't gonna do it because they don't want they're actually they don't want to have that fight with you Yeah, they want to abuse the people that they can manipulate and control easily. Yeah, right? And so He was able to do that obviously with with Deanna and You know when you throw a kid in the middle of it It's unfortunate for that child or you since we're talking about you But that's almost it's almost like a little bit of a barrier Because that person isn't gonna just come right out and just abuse everybody right out in the open now eventually it kind of got to that point right but But typically speaking, you know, if you're gonna if you're if you are that you You you show that to the people that you want to abuse. You don't show that to the other people. Yeah, because you don't want that you can yeah We're your aunt and uncle Jim Bob and Michelle aware that this was going on Yeah, there were times that my mom and I would leave my dad's house and go over to my Aunt and uncle's house and stay there throughout the night talking to him and just Call him down giving him time to breathe, you know time to you know just to cool things off a little bit. Yeah. And we would leave before the kids woke up so they didn't know the turmoil going on. Okay. And I can imagine there probably was a good time to your relationship with your uncle. Like what what did that? What did that like the good times look like? Yeah. So the banter between my uncle and I were great. We had a lot of fun on camera. Oh my gosh. He he's done so many so many funny things. He would feed me. One time he fed me like Haggis in Ireland. I did not. Oh my word. No. He always had me doing silly things and just like he was he was funny. He ate a lot of a lot of good banter between us. And and yeah. So he he loved me. I think there were I think he did love me. But I also think that he I don't know I guess in my opinion he like he kind of knew where I belonged. If that makes sense, you know, I wasn't I was part of the family, but not intermediate, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. I also feel like from me from the outside, I also feel like you were used as a tool on that whole dynamic. That's just my opinion. Well, you know, it definitely is interesting because it was it was just a very interesting dynamic. Thank you to revolve for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. This time of year there are so many special and fun events going on. I'm talking holiday parties, Christmas card photos, North Pole experiences, New Year's Eve parties, all the things. And it's a great time to refresh some fun new pieces into your wardrobe as well. And that is why I am personally shopping revolve. First of all, I have not been enjoying in person shopping. Really? No. Really? So you're doing everything online? I mean, what am I gonna do? All two toddlers with me is just not the same experience. And because revolve has over 1,200 brands and 100,000 styles across fashion, beauty, and home from high end to emerging and exclusive labels, there's no reason to look anywhere else. 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That's revolve.com/unplanned to shop my favorites and get 15% off your first order with code unplanned. Offer ends December 24th, so happy shopping. I didn't like that I was called crazy because you can discredit someone who isn't crazy, right? And I think for me, I had discernment about some things that I talk about in my book as well. And I was told like, there's no, there's no truth to this. Everything's fine. Don't worry about it. You know, that kind of stuff. But in my heart of heart, I kind of knew that something was off. For example, I went to the pantry one time. There was a big birthday going on. And their birthdays were huge, you guys. I mean lots of people, lots of stuff. And yeah, I went to the pantry and one of the girls, one of the older girls, was curled up and crying in a corner. And I just knelt down and held her. And she was having a straight like extreme panic attack. And in those moments, I was just like, oh my goodness. And that's the first time I've ever seen anything because they're making mild and soft and and beautiful. They're beautiful girls. There's a beautiful family. I mean, they really are. And in that moment, I was just like, oh my goodness, like, here you are hurting and no one knows. And so I reached out to my uncle. And I just said, hey, like, here's what I'm seeing. Like, is she okay? What's going on? And he was just like, oh, everything's fine. She was just having one little off day. But I was like, she was shaking like really, really terribly. I was like, that's, that's not that doesn't seem like just a bad day. You know, that's not a hang-new. Yeah, that's that's trauma, really. And so when I was asked, I was just told that there was just no truth to it. But it's like, man, did you know something was going on? You know, I have my questions. It's hard not to. What is it? Like, you, I don't know, when you when you mentioned, like, scandals and trauma, like, what exactly are you like referring to when you mentioned, like, these really dark things that started being like, talk about in the media a couple of years ago? Yeah, I mean, there was like three huge ones. One was the sisters, which is devastating of of Josh, taking with their innocence, as you will. And then this, the second one was the Ashley Madison, which do you know about that one? That one was that one was I think there was a documentary about that. That whole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Josh used my grandma's address for the login information, which is just like, think, dude, you know, think, just like use your brain for a minute. And then the third one, I honestly, I won't really speak of because it's, it's that devastating and that disgusting. But he deserves where he is. Gosh. Yeah. She gets so many people DMing her or like, we'll do a live or something and people ask all the time, like, well, what's happening with this person? What's happening with that person? Or what's going on in the Dugger family? We're like, we don't know. We don't know. Yeah. I found out. We found everything that she just saying, like that, like what you're saying, everything that's hitting the time media, like you know. Yes. National television. Yeah. We learn that. Like, oh, turn on the news right now. Okay. We just learned it. Okay. Or oh, we saw a magazine at Walmart. Yeah. And found out that this was happening. Like we find out just like the rest of the world, because no one's talking to us. Which is crazy. Until we start reaching out, like, hey, we heard about this. Is this true? Is there is what's going on? Yeah. And then kind of what to what you're asking her. Like we would ask questions like, why was the FBI over at the car lot or Homeland Security, Homeland Security get into the car light. What's going on? Right? Like this is kind of weird. Uh-huh. Here's the rumors we're hearing. What is this? Yeah. And then we get answers back. And the answer is like, oh, they just had to stop and get directions. And they just said, hi. And we're like, how uneducated do you think we are? Homeland Security doesn't show up randomly because they're confused on where they're at. That's bizarre that you think we're going to buy that, right? There was a lot. And then they shut up to our house and start asking more questions about them. And then we call and then we call again and go, yo, Homeland just shut up at our house, asking us questions about your son. What the heck is going on? And then it was again swept under the rug. We're told it's all good. Nothing happened. They're just here to say hi and just would have appreciated it. Are you guys crazy? Are you want us to buy this? So I guess like what I'm hearing is the problem you guys were having was when you were talking to your aunt, uncle about Homeland Security showing up at a, at this one example, man, showing up up at your house, you know, you just want to answer on like what actually is going on and they just pretended that there was nothing going on. I don't like someone who is fake and someone who just can't speak truth, right? Like just tell me. Like you don't have to tell me all of it. But you can just say, hey, there's some things going on in the family, pray for us. Like, you know, some like it's a, it's a big deal. No, okay, I can take that, you know, and I can do something with that. When you tell me that Homeland stopped by the car lot because Josh is friends with Homeland Security and they're having lunch and don't worry about it. They're just having a great, they're just friends. Or oh, Homeland Security just stopped by the car lot because they need directions to the actual address of where they're actually investigating. Come on. Come on. It always changed. Yeah, it's just one thing, right? Yeah. I mean, like I hear like, you know, I kind of hear like, I guess maybe like why maybe we feel the way that we feel, right? And like it's not just one little isolated thing like the car lot, right? Or Homeland? Like it's, it's years, years and years of being lied to. It's years of, yeah, it's years of when the lie actually comes to light. It's swept in the rug and it's, and it's belittled to us. And when you're talking about lies being told, you're talking about Jim Bob specifically sharing this stuff. Yeah, I think the biggest, like the most like unfortunate thing is because of that, and it's been so long now, like what, seven years or something is probably longer than that now. But the unfortunate part is like, I can't fault the like her cousins, like the kids, right? Because it's not they're doing. Right. And we also know how like the IBOP like up brings everybody. Yeah. When you're born into it, you don't know any different. And so therefore you don't know what's right or wrong because you live in that little bubble. Totally understand that. Well, it's also like, and also in that environment, too, also in that environment, like you kind of have like a hierarchy, right? Like the father figure is like the one that makes all the rules. He's the one that you don't, he's the leader. And so we also know there's been times too, where things are told to this fan. Oh, they're standing over here. They don't believe like us. So we need to keep our distance because, you know, there's a way that maybe they could suck you into sinful, whatever, whatever's right? So I don't, I don't, I don't think I'll I'll talk for you too, but we don't fault like the cousins for it, because that's how they're raised. And you know, that's just what it is. A lot of the problem is coming from more of, I guess, Jim Bob's side. - Yeah. - And just the level of sweeping things under the rug, the level of the lies that we've been told. And for like, like, she, you were saying for just our mental health and everything else. Like, we have to put a boundary in place. - Who has time for that? - And the bad part is you put a boundary in place, unfortunately, with this situation, you put a boundary in place with one person who is the leader in this IBLP kind of thought process, that person goes and puts the boundary with everybody. - Yeah, I guess now we have no contact with anybody. Other than Jill and Derek, who broke away, and some of the other ones that are breaking away, we get to talk to them, but the other ones who haven't broken away from it, you know, they're still underneath that control of that IBLP kind of thought process. And so that line's been drawn, so we don't have, we don't talk to any of them. Do you know? - It's not because we're cheese not to have talk to the cousins, but I don't think, and I'm honestly kind of guessing, but I don't think that they're even allowed to talk to us from that kind of, that's the way that they've structured to how they raise their household. - But what I guess what I'm hearing from you is that, you know, from reading, yeah, from talking to you guys, yeah, reading Jill's book, Ginger's book, you know. Now we have your book. It's like, there's so much information out there, but it seems like the common theme I'm noticing is where something is going wrong from the top down. And I guess what I'm getting about, yeah, is that that seems to be your uncle, right? Like, 'cause when I hear stories about Michelle, she seems to, like, she shows up. She showed up, I want to say for Jill and Ginger and Joy, when they had their babies and like, I'm like, how are you showing up for your grandkids? When you, like, that woman must be the most busy person on this planet with all the people she's taken care of. Like, she seems like a saint. You know? - Yeah. - She's so sweet. I haven't seen her in years, which is so sad, but at the same time, like, I, yeah, she's, she was always so, so sweet. - Yeah. - Yeah, just tender and genuine and just very kind. - It seems like there are more and more members of the family that are no longer part of the IPLP. And it seems like a lot of people are realizing what their own beliefs are now. You know, a lot of the kids that were on the show are now adults in their grown. What have your conversations been about that with, say, St. Ginger, 'cause I, I mean, with, I'm sorry, Jill. 'Cause I know with you and Jill being friends. I know Jill wears pants now. I want to say she wore pants on this very podcast and we chatted with her. So what was that conversation? That, like, pants conversation, like, with Jill. - Yeah, pants are a big deal. They often have it on their headlines. Like, they're wearing jeans. - As a roller and jeans. - Yeah, no, every, every time. - Every one's wearing pants. - Yeah. - Roll-word pants. - I think it was just, it's so good to see them love their own, like, the way they would like to live. You know, they don't have to be, it doesn't have to be all about rules and then you don't have to live in, like, legalism. - Yeah. - You know, you don't have to live that way. You can live in freedom. And I love to see that. At the same time, and I will say this again, but at the same time when I was on the show, you know, they weren't wearing pants. They weren't doing these things. And so I wish they would have just seen me for me and like, I can still love Jesus and still wear jeans, you know? So back then, there was some pushback and some, maybe a little bit of judgment, coming, coming from that, but I love to see how they've grown and how, you know, who they are as women now. And I'm really, I'm proud of them. I'm always in their corner. - I'm super like encouraging, well, I try to encourage everybody. Like, so I was raised in a certain way, right? Everyone's raised in their own ways and them as well. But at some point, you have to take responsibility for yourself at some point and you have to start challenging what your parents taught you. And then like, well, my parents taught me that so that must be right. Well, that's, come on, that's, you gotta challenge why you believe what they taught you, right? And so I think you're seeing like with Jill and Ginger, like, they've obviously gotten to a point where they're like, I'm gonna challenge everything I was taught and come up with my own beliefs, find out where I stand on all these things. And that's the part that I like seeing, regardless if you agree with them or not. That's huge growth from that side of the family is watching them get older and being like, you know, maybe Mom and Dad were right on these things. For pants, I think I'll wear pants now. Right? - Yeah. - They could be something of small pants. - Yeah. - But the overall thing is like, I see that, like, that is growth not just in them, but like, if you see that, like, if you've done it, I've done that personally, I think. She's done it. That's just positive growth that I can get behind anybody 'cause I don't care what you are. - It's funny the pants conversation being such a big topic because it really is for whatever reason. - Such a big deal. - I know it's been a big topic in the books and then also just chatting with Joy, Ginger, Jill, like we've talked about pants a lot. - Yeah. - And how, like, it was a big deal when they started wearing pants. And it kind of makes me almost think of, like, my little brother turning 21 and being like, dude, how was it? Like, did you, did you drink your first hand? - Did you have a whisk? - Or like, I don't know, like, whatever. So, like, for you, when you saw them, when you saw them starting to wear pants, what did you ever, like, text or call them and be like, yo, like, how's the pants? - Yeah, I texted Jill. I'm not, I don't, I don't talk to Joy and I right now. There's a lot of, you know, I hate to say that. I wish it wasn't that way. But, like I said, the doors open if they ever want to have an actual conversation. I haven't met any of, like, the guys that are now married, I haven't met any of their wives. I've never been invited to the weddings. It's been kind of a closed deal. But, I am, like, rooting them on. You know, I see them in pants. They can, they look good. They look good in pants, you know? I love it. Jill, where's the cutest little thing? - I love this little thing. - Like, I saw it was baggy, long dress skirts, okay? Like, yeah, no, it's a whole new, a whole new world for them and I'm here for it. - There's so many adults that will have, you know, the last wine here and there or a beer or something. But, it's funny, like, when you know someone that, like, used to not do that, but now they are. Like, I have a friend that used to not drink coffee 'cause he was raised more men or LDS. And so, he's actually being able to drink coffee for the first time and I was like, "I didn't have a baby, I don't have a baby." - I'm telling you, it blew my mind whenever, I never thought in a million years I would, I was actually, we were at my house hanging out and I was making cocktails and I made Derek an old fashion. And I was like, "Yes!" "This is the weirdest thing, dude." - I was like, "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh!" We go on, like, double dates with this. - Okay, 'cause like, we had, we had on a restaurant, we had on a bar, like, - It is. - Like, that bar, you guys go to the bar together? I didn't know that. - No, she's not Derek's, but-- - We had a bar together. - Yeah, you guys had a bar, that's cool. I didn't know that. - Yeah, we had a bar for five years. - Well, it was like a restaurant, but it had a huge whiskey- - It was a whiskey lounge. - We had like 120 whiskeys in our show. - Yeah. - So, like, when they really know your whiskey-- - Yes, he knows. - I'm not whiskey, you know. - That's cool. - Okay, whiskey's knob, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, so, but then you made some sort of beverage for Derek, and you never thought in a million years he would drink it, and then you guys just-- - I never thought in a million years, anywhere from that side of her family would ever drink much less than I would be making the drink for them. (laughing) You know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah. - But it was like, I think it was like a good, good moment. - I expected it. - I was like, "Okay, cool." - We are doing this. - I don't care if you drink or if you don't drink, it doesn't matter to me, but I was like, "Okay, yeah." This is kind of cool. Like, a little more openness. - Well, I feel like you can connect, not just in alcohol, but just connect in all kinds of ways. - Oh yeah, that's not gonna be like one thing that was like, that's so like bipolar, though, of what that family, right? Like, well, I'm none of them would ever have a drink. - Kind of like my LDS friend, I was like, "Okay, like what drink did you get?" I was like, "Did you have a latte? "Did you have plain black coffee?" I'm like, "If you had plain black coffee, "you'd have a spray like this." You went, "No." I was like, "Nobody drinks plain black coffee, "if or at least if you're orange." - What is, what? - You drink plain black coffee? - Yeah. - Right, black. - Like John Wayne, dude. - Yeah. - John Wayne, just poured in gum. - Wow. - Total weirdo. - Wow. - Well, he also drinks whiskey, so he's-- - Yeah, that's true. - That's true, that's true. - That's true. - And I also like my whiskey just straight on with an ice cube made of it. - What? - No, I can't. - Is soda or anything? - No. - I'm a Kool-Aid girl, a Kool-Aid street, and for me. - You put your whiskey in Kool-Aid. - I don't do whiskey. Whiskey makes me mean. - She likes it. - She likes it. - She likes wine, and it's like sweet, sweet wine. - It's like the Scotto, it's a sweet stuff. - It's like drinking syrup. - Thank you to Aura Frames for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. 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Again, you can preload photos before it ships and keep adding from anywhere anytime. - You didn't already catch that. - Yep. - Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tags, so it's literally ready to go for you. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can. can frame it. For limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com and get $35 off or as best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code unplanned at checkout. That's a-u-r-a-frames.com promo code unplanned. - This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout, terms and conditions apply. - I'm totally opposite of you. Like, if you see me at a resort, I'll be drinking like a peanut collada or a factory. You'd be like a whiskey guy. I'm not here like, he's not fruity, but fruity. - I know, if I eat a cocktail. - On the rim. - Here's like, if I'm doing cocktails, it's like a Sazarac, which is very whiskey-forward. - Oh, well, I don't even know what that is. - Or it's like, I'm going straight, like I'm going in old fashionedist. Or it's like, or it's like, I'm doing martinis. Like, give me a dirty, dry, gin, or vodka martinis. - Wait, I want to hear if I'm in a way. - Express the martinis are good. - They're so good. - I want their alcohol at the way. - Okay, so good. - You're back here. - You're waiting. - You're waiting. - Okay, yeah. - Yeah, okay. - We had two different receptions. I'll let Amy explain it. - We did. - This was a respect for one. - This was a first one. - Yes, I mean, so it was right after the first, of the second scandal, right? I don't even, - Does it matter? - The second scandal. - Well, okay, I'm just letting you know that, like, my aunt was there, everyone was there. Everybody was there, and I was there. It was like a really big deal, because it was heartbreaking for her. It was like a really big moment. And I was like, okay, we have to be really, respectful of my family. And I love them, I want to be respectful. So we had like the most softest music, playing. - It was, it was-- - It was-- - Music that didn't have an awful church. - It was church. - It was in a church. - It was in a barn. We got married in like a really pretty barn of many, - And this, we're talking like piano music. - Like, very, yes, like, very soft. - Like music that they would have in their home. - Like, yeah. - Okay. - And everyone was eating, and we had all the food. And I mean, it was beautiful. - We did that for a little while. - And we had to go wedding, right? - And we had the DJ come on and say, everyone, we're going from classy to trashy in about five minutes. - Wait, he actually used the word trashy? - Yeah. - I don't know if we, I don't know. - Well, I know I didn't. I don't know if he actually said use those words, but that's the word from those words. - Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's the word. - He chose the wonder they all left the bar. - Basically, it was like, hey, we have five minutes, 'cause we're about to play like regular, like, ready to do it. - You change. They warned them. - And then what happened? - Oh, they left. - Immediately, they left. - They left. - Like, everyone, single one of them. - Every single one. - Not, there was not a single person. - Not a single one. - No. - What about like a distant cousin? Do you have any other distant cousins or anything like that? - No. - No. - Just all of your bar, but he's worth it. (laughing) - It was mainly my family and all my friends. - All my friends. - Yeah, I'm like, yeah, in my mom. - Not ever family. - But like, it was like a big, just a big O party. I mean, last until about three in the morning. - Yeah, yeah. - I was bummed 'cause I know, yeah, like there's certain, there's certain members of the family that still will be on podcast and we'll chat. And that's, that's true. Like I love that there are some that, you know, like to talk about the show and what they're up to now. But some people don't, not respect that. But I wanna hear, I heard to the great find that at like a recent wedding or something that there was dancing, which must have been like a really big deal. - Wow, I know, I did. - Oh wow. - But I don't know, but I guess that you're wedding, there wasn't, there was no dancing, I guess. - There was dancing. - Oh yeah. - I'm getting out because of faith. - I went to the left before it all started crashing. - What happened when you were dancing? - Now it's me. - Yeah. - There was dancing after that. - One, two, okay. - I think they knew that the music was gonna be changed to something that they thought was probably simple. - Yeah. - And we had an open bar. - And they were told that, you know, the bar is now open and we're, you know, people 'cause they're having cocktails. - Yeah. - I think that's about time they were there, like we're out. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They're like, we love Amy, but. - Crazy Amy showed up. - We gotta go. - And you just knew that the lights just started dimming. - You know, it's like it, oh, oh. - Well, turn into a club, turn into a party, you know, it's our wedding. - Yeah, I mean, we're gonna celebrate it. - We hadn't celebrated it. - We had an open bar. - Yes. - People took their shirts off, I think. - I think my buddies, did my buddies take their, oh, they, I think they took your shirt off, man. - Did I have my shirt off at our wedding? - I have my shirt off. - I have a question. - I have a question. - Do you have a problem with taking off your shirt a lot? - Dude. (laughing) - Seems like that's a, I'm gonna go in the thing. - Yeah, but she also said it. - So this person has a dozen dollars. - It's a thing. - It's a thing. - Talk about generational. - I don't know what it's like. - Or today was riding his bike. - It's a generational cycle. - Showed it. - But where is your shirt? - Did your dad get this? - No, mine doesn't wear a shirt either. - Hey, you know, I think, I think it might be my ADHD. I don't know what it is. I've always had the sensitivity issues. - It's a sensory thing. - Okay, so I've always my entire life. - I never worn a shirt at home. - There's like family Christmas pictures. Everyone's in sweaters. - Yeah, no shirt. - No shirt. - And are you still living Hawaii? - I love that. - And I, one of my favorite parts about Hawaii, and I'm not even kidding, was I would never have a shirt on. I would go to the grocery store, no shirt. Go to the beach, no shirt. Be at my house, no shirt. I'd never had a wear a shirt. - Your mom was just talking today. She's like, "I did my special socks for Matt." - She did. - She did. - Special clothes with tags. - I was gonna ask you about the tags. Do you cut out your tags out of your shirt? - She's got a mask. It depends on how itchy they are. And I'm really particular with the tag stuff, 'cause I hate that. But seriously though, the shirt thing, it's a real thing. Like I don't, it's honestly, it's out of respect for you guys and I have a shirt on right now. - I have to, do you want to take it off? - I'm not even kidding, you guys 15 seconds before I met you, I threw the shirt on. - I mean, I'm gonna tear it out. I can give. - I don't doubt it. - I can care less if you have a shirt on. - I can do that. - I don't care. - I guess I'll take it off. - Classy to trust you. - It's a different angle for your podcast. - Classy to take him full off. - Yeah, I would say, let me wait, let me hold off. (laughing) - Mom said she talked to the pediatrician about it. - She did, yeah, it was a real one. - It's a real one. - Maybe then, so should I force him to wear it? And he's like, I can't say anything 'cause I'm the same way. - I'm really, my parents will be over for dinner and I won't have a shirt on at the dinner table. And my dad's like, he's like, you know what? I guess this is your house, so I can't really make you do. - That's true. - Or, I think I said that. I don't think, I think I was like, dad don't even say anything. Like, I'm not working here. It's my house. - No, no, no, no. - Next time they do that, you just put like, nipple tassels and be like, oh my god. (laughing) That way, you're like, Matt, where's your shirt? And just turn on to like, I'm all covered. - They would think that's funny. - Tassels on so you can like, you know, it was twirling and stuff. - Yeah, they would. - They actually would laugh about that. - But I do think about it. - You're covered. - You're covered. - I'm from a legal perspective. You can walk around. - That's right. - You're useless anyway. - Oh my gosh. - I'm curious if you've ever been to a dougar wedding. Have you ever been? - Yeah, I sang it, Jills. - No way. - Which was super fun. And I've been to Josh's. I've been, yeah, so I've been up to, let's see what was the last one. - I've been to one. - You've been, don't even get me started on the one that you were at. He was at Jills hungover, y'all. - He was bad. - He was hungover. - He was really bad. - Boyfriend and they would be like, the people who he'd be beside me had sunglasses. And they were like crazy. - He's a boyfriend and I was like, I don't know, I don't know. He's not here. He's not here. - I had one of those days where like, and he was like, hey, we have the wedding. If you're gonna go, I'm like, yes, I'll go. I'll support you. I'll go. - And then I had somebody's like, hey, we're gonna go have a beer like the bar. You wanna go and I'm like, I'll have like a couple. I'm like, why don't you, and then I gotta get back 'cause I got this wedding first thing tomorrow morning. And then you know how like, always go through. - It's an early morning wedding? - Yeah, it was like in the morning. - It was me. - Yeah, it was a whole thing. - Yeah, it was wedding was in the morning. - It was, I mean, it was. - It was a morning wedding. - It was a last-perfect. - I was like, why are you looking over at like, six kids? - No, no, no, no. - Hey, it's a morning wedding. So one or two beers, you know how that kind of sometimes turns into more than that, and it did. And I don't think I went to bed like four in the morning. And then some of her girlfriends came over 'cause I guess she had called or something. I didn't answer the call. - I was like, what's Dylan? - Yeah. - And yeah, they bang on the door and I was like, what? And they're like, give the wedding. And they're like, I know, and they're like, you know what time it is? - Right now. - No? And they're like, oh, I'm gonna miss it. - He showed up in some places. - I was like-- - I was like, - Don't say it's happening right now. - What is happening? - I didn't talk to a whole lot of people. - No, no. I have been to Jess's. I've been to Ginger's. I've been to-- - Yeah, I mean I've been to-- - Oh, so you've been to a lot. - But I mean, the newest ones. - You know, Jason, Josiah, Funerals. I haven't been a part of like any of like, if we have a family like, you know, a distant, I haven't been to any of those. Family reunions, I haven't. We haven't been invited to. Jaina's, I wasn't invited to. There was a lot of different weddings that I haven't. Which is just weird. She's a weird feeling being like, wow. That is something I thought I would never happen. - Yeah, I think that's one of the other things we were talking about like before too. It's like, you know, you see like Ginger and Jill and they're getting older and they challenge a bunch of stuff that they were taught as a kid. They're kind of changing how they live their life. I think that's great. But some of the other ones that we haven't spoken to who aren't living at home and they just don't invite family member. It's like, okay, is like, what did somebody say? Or what were they told? - Yeah, we don't know what they maybe been told. - And this line that, you know, we don't like them. - You know, there's like a family. - We wonder that. I have no idea what you might have told the rest of the kids. Because it's weird, like even when we free reach out, they don't reach back. And it's like, okay, what were you all told? - Yeah, what's going on here, you know? And there's a family loyalty. And I get that they like want to be obedient to their parents and that they, you know, when I have their parents in their lives and that kind of thing. And I, it's not that I am against anyone. I didn't write this book from like a bitter place. I'm not mad. I am not clearly. You guys have talked to me like I am not mad about it. It's just, I've had to heal from a lot. And the experiences that I've had to heal from can help someone else heal from whatever they've gone through in their life. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot in there. I understand that because I, going through like our recent hard experience, like people like I could never talk about it. And I understand that. And I can see where that comes from. I also feel like, like I always said, like talking about it and even talking about it publicly was like, oh, it was a healing process for me. Like, it felt like we could get that out there. And then like it felt like once everything was on the table, it's like, okay, now we can see it for what it is and we can move on. And I do understand the aspect, for sure. - I know, cool parts when you actually-- - In a different way. - Yeah, I know, for sure. - But to that point, I think it's really cool like when you do the work yourself and you heal from it, but then you are kind of public about it. - Yeah. - Not like waving public about it, but you're not shared to share, right? Then you do get people that are in a good place, like Jill that reaches out and be like, hey, I've been there. What do you, if you need anything, got what? Like I'm here. - She's been so sweet and so supportive. - If she wasn't public about it though and she hadn't healed from it, then you know, she wouldn't have reached out. - And it, but that goes on all of us. Like what I might have worked on as a kid and where I'm at now might not help you because you haven't gone through that or you're not going through it. But somebody else might. So I can help people that you can't, but you can touch people that I can't. Does that make sense? - And it's cool how I can talk to you. - And so I think-- - Shirtless. - Yeah, pass a lift you up, man. It'd be great. - No, it is cool how sharing your story can help you heal and help other people heal. I know even speaking with Tanner Martin's wife, Shay Martin, who we spoke to you on this podcast, she lost her husband, Tanner to cancer. And I felt, I was like, how do you feel about talking about, like I was like, just double checking before we did the interview. Like how do you feel about talking, like this is really fresh. This happened a couple of months ago. And she was like, no, this is actually like that quick. - Yeah, and she was like, this is actually, she said she was like, this is therapeutic for me to share his story and so like his memory can, you know, that's how strong of a person just she is. - I know. - It's two months, that's quick. - Yeah, so I think it's just one of those things where, yeah, you can maybe like you bring purpose out of past trauma through helping people through it and talking about it. - Sure, right, yeah. - I am curious though, have you, like I know we talked about Jim Bob, but with your own father, have you talked to your dad since the release of the book? - Unfortunately, no, I have not. And the things that are in the book, you know, are deeply, deeply personal. And it's, I go through the entire thing of what's happened and what's gone on. And really the last moments of my last goodbye, there was a lot of mind games, I'll just so much hurt. And like, yeah, it was like one of the most devastating parts of my entire book. My book, I've been told, we'll make you cry. So if you guys, you know, for those that are do picking it up, just have Kleenex nearby because I hear that it, you know, it's just my life's story. And there's ups and downs and a lot of deep valleys that I've had to go through. But no, unfortunately I have not. - And so we haven't talked to her dad in like seven years. - Wow, seven years, seven years. Like he made a phone call to our house. I won't get into that phone call unless she's okay with it. But hand up Colin and he set up a bunch of things and basically she handed the phone to me. - Heart breaking thing. - She handed the phone to me. I, you know, again, that kind of that abuser kind of thing, you kind of flip the switch and I was like, dude, she had the phone on speaker phone this whole time. Like I heard every word you already said. So don't, now I'll sudden flip it because you're talking to me like you didn't say what you said. - Yeah. - Like, I heard you, let's talk about it. - Yeah. - Day one talk about it. Anyway, to cut to the end of the story, that conversation basically got left with like, we're done. - Yeah. - This is the line we're drawing. - You can't do this anymore. - Like you've abused her, you've abused Deanna for years. Now we're married. I'm not gonna let it continue. 'Cause I'm not letting that into my own life. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And that was a line that, that day, she said, this is the line and, you know, we asked, we were pretty blatant obvious. We asked them straight up like, look man, like if you can't change these type of things and this is like the abuse behavior that you're gonna continue to do unless you change it, like you're not welcome at our house. - Yeah. - Don't call us. We went as far as even saying like, you're not gonna meet your kid. - You're never gonna know your kid. - You're not gonna meet your grandkids. - Yeah. - We're not letting this, we're not letting this in our life. - Yeah. - That's just where we're at. - How does he respond? - How do you say that? - Basically good, I don't need you anyway. And hung up, I mean, that's basically what it was. And we were like, okay, and we haven't talked to him in seven years now. So. - Yeah, a lot of therapy over that. A lot of therapy. - What would you do if he, like, showed up at your house one day and like, wanted to talk? - He's not welcome. - I would probably call the police. - Yeah, he's not welcome. - I really would. It's to the point where like, if someone tells you over how they want to end your life and they've threatened you and they've threatened to burn down the house with you in it and tie you up and hurt you and all the things. It was never sexual abuse. Let's let that be known. But his, the words that he said to me felt like he was punching me in the face every single time. - It was terrifying. - Terrifying. - Terrifying. - And I would say it was so strong that I have a really good buddy of mine. Great friend of mine that was in like law enforcement for 30 something years. And we went to him and I was like, look man, you've dealt with this type of thing just in your profession. And like, these are the things that he's telling her. And from like, from his professional kind of standpoint, I'm like, what would you make of this? And he's like, you need, get a restraining order. Get a restraining order. - Was that something that you just had? - There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, the restraining order and a pattern. Like, this isn't like, oh, I got mad one day. Now, no, no. - No, my, my mom had a restraining order on him when they were younger. And I think he's gotten to the point where now I don't think he'll reach out. I don't think, you know, he'll, he'll try. - Do you know if he knows that you wrote a book or? - I have no idea. I have no idea. - It was zero contact. - Zero contact, zero. - Yeah, like is this number blocked? Like, even if he tried to call, it wouldn't, his number's not blocked in my phone. - His number is blocked in mine. And, you know, he's not the only blocked number. My uncle is blocked as well. I'm just gonna, you know, I'm almost 40. I'm 30, 39, which is crazy to say. I'm 39. I don't, I'm exhausted. I don't want to have these mind games. And, you know, I want to have genuine good people surrounding me and, you know, influencing my child and protecting my child and just being just good, I just, just be a good human. - Yeah. - I'm asking, you know, we don't have to see eye-to-eye on everything, no, but you cannot, you know, threaten my life. That's just not gonna, that's not gonna work. That's about, yeah, you're not gonna do that. And, I'm not gonna be lied to over and over. You know, there's so many things that I think, because narcissistic people just know what to say and they know how to twist things and manipulate and that kind of thing, that, you know, we put up with it, we will, I should say this. If we have friends and they're treating me that way, like, Abby, if someone was treating me that way, you would be like, whoa, that's toxic, that's unhealthy. Like, I'm not gonna allow that in my life, right? But what happens if it's family member, you know, people just go along with it. They're like, oh, I have to accept it 'cause family is forever. - Yeah. - You know, they see the Hobby Lobby signs. Family is forever, these plaques and all these things. Well, family can also be chosen. And families should respect you and love you and value you and treat you with genuine respect, you know? - Yeah, agree. - And if you don't have that, then you have to draw a boundary or that toxic cycle never stops. - Did your mom end up making a boundary like that at some point as well? - She did, yeah. So in the book, I talk about how my uncle invited her to live at his house after grandma passed. My grandma, my mom was my grandma's caregiver for like three or four years. And my mom was in a really, really broken place, really bad, just from all the things she's gone through, but also a really bad force. And so she now lives with us. And it's like a really good, like big ending to the story is that my mom lives with us now. And she's actually taking care of ducks right now. - Yeah, away. - Yeah, yeah. And it's such a beautiful thing 'cause she's healed from so, so much. And it just shows you that anything is possible once you just, you have to put boundaries in place or that's always gonna continue. Is that hard to have those boundaries living where you live? Because I mean, everyone, everything's so close together. - You're like 20 minutes away, right? - And it's not like heavily, heavily populated, right? - It's like five, six hundred thousand people who live in that area. - Yeah, I mean, so it's not, it's not insanely populated, but at the same time, yeah, when we go to the same places, you know? If I, for example, I ran into John David just the other day and he was at a restaurant and I saw his wife and I just said, hi, and she was like, hi, Amy, she was as high when I see her. And John looked at me and he was like, oh, hey. And I was like, hey, and then he just kept on. Like it wasn't anything. It was, I mean, are we family? Sure, but are we in each other's lives? Not, no. And so it's just one of those things where he's like, what, I mean, life goes on, you know? It's just another person. - I think that's a crazy thing that kind of blows my mind. - Which is crazy. - We've kind of drawn a line with like, Thank you. obviously and her dad and yeah. But like we've never really drawn the line like with the rest of like the cousins. - No. - It seems like something has been said over there 'cause it's almost like, it's almost like all of them have drawn a line not to engage us. - Where they would almost be like cut out or something from the top down or something. - That's honestly my opinion. - I think that's probably what happened. - I don't know, I don't know. 'Cause the only ones that have reached out is the ones who have broken away from it. I've also been very outspoken and I'm not going to stop because that's how you break cycles. That's how you help other people break cycles. And that's how you can have peace in your life. And so I don't think that's really welcomed - Okay. - In that group. And so yeah, 'cause women are literally, you're literally taught in the IBLP and even just in that family unit and that circle that women are supposed to be like quiet, make and mild, you know, submissive and just not to have them out of their own. - Yeah, you don't think for yourself. And so I am, I clap back. (laughing) - Call all of a sudden of how they think a woman should be. - Right, and so I-- - What I should say used to be, we can't say that now 'cause we had doctor forever. - We don't know. - We don't know. - But yeah, so I don't think they necessarily are like, whoa, like what is she doing? But for me, it's just, it's a healing journey. It's really therapeutic. - Yeah, 'cause it almost seems, I just know through our conversations on the podcast with Ginger, Jeremy, Joy, everybody that we've spoken to, it seems like, from what I've seen, it seems like they've all broken away from IBLP and I'm sure a lot of their siblings have. We haven't talked them on the podcast, I have no idea. But it almost seems like the IBLP thing and then the family unit thing is separate, you know? So yeah, it makes me sad. I hope that in the future you guys can all reconnect at some point 'cause that like, that would be dope. I mean, maybe it's not with you and your uncle but maybe like your cousins, I don't know. That'd be awesome. - No, the door's always open and it's something that I would literally welcome if they went and have a real, you know, heart to heart conversation. - That's awesome. - This is a curiosity question 'cause you were raised as an only child. Obviously had so many cousins that you were close with growing up. Did you have siblings? - Yeah, I have a brother and a sister. - Okay, and then you have one son that you call an only child. So I think that is the door's close for more children. - Listen. (laughing) - I mean, I'm 39. I feel like I wasn't gonna say it that I don't. - My grandma had my uncle at like 42. - Yeah, I think we kind of went it on board. (laughing) - I think we went it like, what is good? - I've asked Dax so many times. I'm like, buddy, would you like a brother or sister? Like, how do you feel about that? And ever since he was like two years old, he's like, no, I want a baby duck. - Baby duck. - Okay, and it hasn't changed. He's now six and still says, I want a baby duck. And don't worry, we're gonna hopefully move on a farm in the little leaves. - Yeah, it's gonna happen. - We're gonna get ducks. - You guys haven't gotten them a duck, right? - Well, we can't in our neighborhood. - What? - Yeah. - We're gonna put the duck. - We also have a cat. - We have some friends that they live in in a residential neighborhood and they have chickens. - Okay, I love that. - I don't think our H.O.A was gonna do that. - I don't think they would let us do that. - I don't think they would let us do it at all. - I don't think they'd let us do it at all. - And chickens isn't worth getting fined every month 'cause I have chickens. - Yeah. - Come on, this is a perfect chicken. - Within one day, I'm gonna have like a total farm of every animal. He's already told me, if we move to a farm, I can have whatever animal I want. - There you go. - I'm telling you. - So you're like no more kids. - They'll be more good. - Yeah, so I, he's, I've always wanted to be a boy mom. And now that I am, it's everything I've ever wanted. And I'm fulfilled. - I love it. - I love it. - Here's a crazy, so she married somebody that also, oh, this is how much life changes. - Oh my gosh. - No, no, no, no, no, no. - I think it's funny that you like not only drink, but then you own the freaking farm. Like how big of a contrast could you make for like my VLP? It's like, you own the farm. - Oh my gosh. - I just don't go there, like I own the farm. - I told you that I did not want to date or marry a vanilla cupcake and you'll, oh my gosh. - I did not marry one. - No, he didn't. - No, I got, I got all kinds of things that he was like. - Yeah. - I don't remember what I was gonna say now. - I'm not kidding, we're talking about children. - Oh, you were talking about children. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, so like when we first got, like met and everything else, like I was like, very on a straight line of like, I'm not looking for like a serious relationship till I'm 40. I had no interest in having kids, like none. And then we got married when I was like, what, we were late 20s? And I was like, well, I missed the 40 mark by a mile. And then we waited four years to have a kid. - He got to have a kid. - I was like, three months in. - We should have a kid. - He was like, I want a baby. - And I was like, even, I was even shocked myself, 'cause I was like, I don't want kids. - I don't want kids. - I never want a kid. - Yeah, but it's so funny hearing that, because it's really good for me. (laughing) - For me. - Because I love both. - Fatherhood is freaking awesome. - Here's what I love. - So I know for a fact, I love it. - Like, probably 25, I would have been begging Abby to like, make me a dad. But like, at the time when she was like, wanting to have kids, I was just like, where are you serious? Like, we just got married. - It was even that. - So it's funny hearing you be like, I was the one that was like, pushing for it. - Yeah, I mean like, into our marriage. - It was crazy. - I literally thought like, that's like, a dog or move. Like, I'm not. - Uh-uh. - I'm not. - Do you even happy, like, you were almost thinking you weren't gonna have kids at first? - No, no, no. I mean, I definitely wanted a kid. I had to like, here's the thing. I had to heal from a lot. - Okay. - Given my background. - Yeah. - I knew that I had to like, in order to be the mom that I am now, which I love being a mom. It is the best thing on the planet. But in order to be that kind of mom, like, that's gonna be soft spoken and kind and patient and all of that, I had to heal from a lot. Because I grew up with a lot of yelling, broken glass, cops were called, that kind of crap. I had to work on me before I could, you know, be something amazing for a little one. - We didn't have, like, I'm glad we didn't have a kid three months in. And I say that because, like, if you go back and you watch, like, marriage boot camp. - Okay. - So that we were on. - Yeah, yeah. - That was like our first year of, we went on that show, like our first year of marriage. So we went in, like, as like, then we went on a TV show, your first year of marriage. - Yeah. - And so what? - There's five couples that live in this house, and every couple is in a different stage of their relationship. So we were like the newlyweds that was on it. And so, like, we really went into it like, okay, we don't have huge big major problems, but we're definitely gonna learn a bunch stuff about each other and maybe this will prevent bigger things going down the road. So we went into it like, almost like counseling. If you watch that, like, so a lot of the healing stuff that she's talking about, like, like, I had to, I've watched her go through all of this healing stuff through, like, our earliest tides over marriage. And we just celebrated 10 years. - Congratulations. - That's amazing. - Thank you. - But I would say, like, the first, what? One, two, three years? - Five. - Was a lot of, like, you know, boundaries drawn that we've talked about, but then it was like, okay, the boundaries, the boundary has been drawn, that's gonna stay on this side now. And now let's work on me. And so, like, a few years of our, like, marriage was a lot of her working on herself. - A lot of triggers. - I had a lot of triggers. - She had a lot of triggers. - Big triggers that I had to figure out 'cause I don't know your triggers. Like, you don't know someone's triggers unless you talk about it. - Yeah. - So, like. - Communication babe, we've done well. - We're doing good. We're coming. - We're 10 years in, we're happy. - So we're good. - Isn't it cool though, like, through all that time, you just get to know each other so well that, like, I understand how Abby's mind works and I understand, like, the things that she loves and the things that, like, sets her off and, like, it's just, it's so cool. You get to know someone like that way. It's really special. - Actually, yeah, today in the shower, I was like, I'm gonna give you one chance. - He had a shirt off, right? - To, he. (laughing) - I did it. - You did it. - I always had a shirt off. - I was like, you know me. I said, do that one more time. - I don't know. - I was like, okay, he said, that was wrong. And you literally gave me three reasons why you should've said it. - Yeah, I was like, I took a second and I was like, this is everything you're getting wrong. - You didn't like this because this and then this and then this. - I love that. - I was actually impressed. - You were like, I'm not even mad anymore. - I was like, I'm not even mad anymore. - You're not communicating. - I love you, baby. - How long have you guys been together? - We've been, oh, this summer will be a decade. So, we're okay, this will be seven years married. So yeah, six months from now we'll celebrate seven years. - Seven years. - But, yeah, we dated for three. So this will be a decade together. - Oh, I love that. - We got to do something big. - We love that. - A decade of our relationship. What should we do? - Yeah, I don't know. - I'll do something. - But he's different once you're married. So I'm only six and a half years married. - Yeah, that is. - We've been together, I guess we've been together for 11. - Okay. - We've been married for 10. - Okay. - So yeah. - I think a lot of people, the duck world too, also thought like we were having like a shotgun winning 'cause we got pregnant. - Oh, that's, I don't know. - I'll say that, I'll say that. - I'll say that too. - So we, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying, I think people thought that because like, okay, so we dated for like eight months and then we were engaged for two months and then we had a 450 person wedding. - Yeah. - That's really funny. - That's hilarious. - I know, that's hilarious. Everyone on my side was like, Dylan doesn't want to get married, why is he getting married to a two months engagement? What is this? And then, her side family was like, it's just like, people would naturally like, came up engagement like, she was pregnant, right? - What's going on? - And your family's like, this is the owner of the local bar, right? - Well, I should've borrowed that time. - You didn't have to borrow that. - No, no. - Okay. - It's just like, just to be clear, okay? - They're not making money, they're not making money. - They are talking, don't do it. - It doesn't seem like a fun idea until you own it. - No, so the deal, okay, the short story of that is like I've always loved the social aspect of like lounges and that type of thing. Don't get me wrong, I like my whiskey and everything. But like I like the interaction. Like with you guys, like I like me and new people. - This is so fun. - I like being out and being social. - Yeah, and so like ever since 21 being able to go into a bar or lounge, like I've always been like, I wanna own a bar or a lounge. - Yeah, I don't know what it that looks like, but I was like, one day, I wanna own one. And so, we got in a good place in our relationship, right? 'Cause it's gonna take up a lot of your time and it's a bar too, right? I mean, you can't have someone in the relationship being jealous if you're running a bar. I mean, you can imagine. So, you know, we run a good healthy place. As far as our relationship, we run a good healthy place financially. And I was like, I've always wanted to do this, we're in a good spot, let's do it. 'Cause like if you don't do it, you're gonna regret it later. And I can't do that. - Okay. - Like if I have something I wanna do, I'm not gonna not do it. 'Cause I know I will regret it later. I'll kill myself for it. Just 'cause of that, like, why didn't I do that when I was young? I'm not gonna do it. I'd rather just take the chance, right? - Yeah. - So we did. It was a lot of fun. We had it for six years, loved it. You know, we got out of it now. But it was a lot of fun. A lot of fun. - Hard work. - I kinda miss it still a little bit. - Sure, you learned a lot too, just about like people and business and probably alcohol as well. Like, there's a lot. I mean, yeah, we had a private cigar lunch in the back. So, you know, we'd smoke cigars and have some whiskey. It was very a man thing, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, it was a lot of fun. We had a French, a culinary train, French chef. So I learned a lot of cooking stuff from him throughout the years. So, if you jump on like any of our social stuff, you'll see me cooking food. And she always is posting something that I'm cooking, but who came from the chef at the restaurant in that way? - I'm sorry, like, I got a sidetracked about the bar, but back to the wedding. Who went to you and was like asking you about you guys having a kid out of wedlock when you got married? - Oh, I think it was just a general, like, like, - Everybody's just looking for the bump, right? - Like, so you're not pregnant. - Oh, it was not pregnant. - Okay, yeah, we weren't pregnant. We were just like, you know, you got engaged and like we were like, okay. - Yeah, wait a second. - Let's have the wedding in September. It's like, you know, it's two months. That's two months from now. - Like, yeah. - It's my favorite thing. - I wanted to do that and that got shut down, but I think our moms, I think, maybe you a little bit, but I think you were also more, you were more down to like do a courthouse wedding or whatever. - Yeah. - But, no, it's amazing. - Yeah. - Some people get so caught up in like, weddings, like the dress and everything. - Right, the planning for a whole year. - Our wedding was expensive. - That's awesome. - Yeah, I love that. I love the courthouse. Or like just like a loping. I feel like that would be amazing. - Oh, a lot of soul. - If I could a lope, I would do it all over again. - We could have bought a really nice car for how much our wedding cost. - Should have, should have maybe. - Which in hindsight, like it was a great, I mean, it was a great day, obviously. Don't regret it at all. Obviously. - Good. - I'm not about like how much we spent on the wedding and everything else. Like the. - It's so expensive these days. - The logistics of a wedding, right? - Yeah. - 'Cause it was like, four and 50 guests. It's a big wedding. - Oh, that's huge. - It's a big wedding. But hindsight, like what were you talking about? Like I would have much rather than like, let's throw that money in the bank for something else and let's take like a good chunk of it and go play like around Europe for like three weeks. - Or, you know. - Or something like that. - Put that in the house, you know? - Or something on a house. - And then we got back to be like, and then when we get back, let's just go like a local party with close friends and family. Like that would have been way better. I think we've talked about a lot today. I know your book, your book is now out. It's been out for a couple of weeks now. Holy Disruptor, so congratulations on your book. - Thank you. - You know, it seems like you guys have an exciting. I think you've mentioned there's a line of cozy blankets. - So I'm doing a comfy cozy line. - A comfy cozy line. - That's like a lot of sassy, like one liner's on these sweatshirts. - Like sweatshirts and like loungewear, like streetwear, that kind of stuff. - Okay, so not like it's, but it's like comfy cozy. Yeah, sweatshirts, streetwear, okay. - Yes. - Very cool. - Yeah, so it's called Louder Threats and it'll be out in December. - Very cool. - So coming up really soon. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - It's cool, we've been really busy. - Yeah. - It's gonna be really good stuff. It's gonna be just like, like from a like a mental health perspective of just like, I don't know. - All the stains and like all the stuff like that is all like encouraging kind of things. It's all things that you can wear that maybe people can relate to in like their own life. - Yeah. - I've been my healing era. - And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there's people listening to the podcast that are interested in the book, haven't, haven't read yet, but I know there's probably a lot of people too that have finished the book 'cause it's been out for a couple of weeks. What do you have to say to those people who maybe are just wanting a life update from you on how things are now and what you currently are up to? - Oh my goodness, I would just say thank you so much for your outpouring, like love and support. It means a lot, it was the hardest project I ever had to do was to write this book and then be the audio voice for it because it just brought, it just brought a voice to the actual, of my actual truth in my story. And so I just hope it like resonates with their heart. So you know, I hope it encourages them in their own life that they can be holy disruptors. And when they see something that needs to be broken in generational trauma, that they have the power and the courage to do so. - That's awesome. Have you heard any stories of people reaching out and sharing like how it's affected their life and brought goodness into their lives? - So I have had so many people reach out. I had one lady, I won't tell her name, but she got out of a 28 year marriage from someone who was physically abusing her. And she said that after reading my book, she sent me a message and said, your book has made me realize that I deserve peace. For a long time, I didn't think I deserved, I deserved what I was getting. And because of you, I have left. And she got a restraining order and has moved out and is like, and it's not all about just disrupting and divorcing and it's not all these really heavy topics. But it's more of looking at the people in your life and being like, who is healthy, who is loving me and accepting me and is a good example for the people that I'm around for my kids? And who makes my heart feel happy? Those are the people that we should have in our inner circle. - Yeah. - And the ones that don't, well, I believe that that's why there's boundaries. And so boundaries really protect you. - Yeah, there's been a lot of people reach out. - There's been so many, many, many people. - I'm so happy to hear that. - Yeah. - I guess my final question for you, and if this is too much, no worries at all, I'm curious if your dad were here, if there's something for you to say to him, 'cause it's been seven years. Like what would you say to your dad? - I would say that my life is at peace now. And I don't have any like bad hard feelings toward him. I just, I know that he has to heal from the things that's hurt him in his life. And so I just wish him all the best. And I hope that healing is possible in his life. - That's good, that's very good. Yeah, that's cool that you have that outlook. So I'm sure it's very hard to like, hope for something good for someone that hurts you a lot. - Took me a while to get there, but now that it's here, yeah, I feel like a totally different person. - That's awesome, that's awesome. - Well, Amy and Dylan, thank you again so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate you guys being here. And again, you guys can check out Amy's new book, "Holy Disruptor." It's, I want to say on Amazon everywhere. - It's everywhere. - Everywhere, everywhere. - Go to your little bookstore for they have it. - Yeah, it's everywhere. - Yes, so guys, thank you so much again for being here. - Thank you, Y'all are great. - Thank you so much. - Thank you so much. - This is great.