Grief is Like a Fingerprint

in the recent episodes i've been focusing on courageous conversations or conversations actually that we typically avoid or things that we sweep under the rug or conversations we have in our own head sometimes instead of actually with the person with whom we should be having the conversation with or conversations that are in our own head because we no longer can actually talk to the person with whom we would like to have this conversation because they're not there anymore and so this episode is about grief it's about loss it centers around the death of an older father which seems to be part of the normal order of things parents go before their children but then also the death of a sibling by suicide which feels like a massive interruption in the fabric of the world and so i'm going to talk a little bit about that and i'm going to talk a little bit about the death of a father which seems to be part of the normal order of things parents go before their children but then also the death of a sibling by suicide which feels like a massive interruption in the fabric of life in the thread and as you listen to this episode i want you to please take care of yourself know that this is about grief but also about how this can actually become not something that we sweep under the rug and avoid or get pissed at internally but that actually we begin to understand that there are many parts to a conversation and we sometimes only inhabit one piece of the larger story and other members of our family or our circle will actually highlight those parts and it's not because our parts are the truer ones and they should switch it's because the complexity of some of the large human experiences are multifaceted and we have a way each of us to just express one piece of the facet as it should be so let's listen your favorite fall flavors are back at starbucks the one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks fall is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks shall we listen to your question and then if there's anything you want to add to it sure we can tweak it okay let's do that yep the question that i would love to talk to esther about uh is understanding grief and the context is that my dad two years ago died he was 86 and he died of old age and dementia and then three months later my little sister died from suicide and she was 35 um and she had three kids little kids and so i feel like i've gotten this like crash course in grief since then and i think that grief is uh an intelligence and part of life and a part that's not really like exalted or well understood or like acknowledged at least like in western society and so um i think it's an intelligence but then there's this paradox where i find myself trying to connect with other people and like getting out of my shell and like sharing about it but then a lot of sometimes i feel lonelier after that and i i just experience these feelings that like feel ugly like i have contempt for other people and i just think their problems are so stupid or so small and that they should just get over it and feel bad for me and because my i just want someone to like give me a gold medal for having the most pain and that doesn't like seem intelligent to me um and so just kind of that paradox is something that i would love to um just talk about taking a moment to sit with this very profound and big question what's it like for you to hear it to hear your own question um it makes me sad it's like i'm listening to someone else like i'm disconnected even though i'm the one that i'm the one whose voice it is disconnected from pain so you let her feel the feelings when she was asking the questions mm-hmm and then another part of you today is trying to hold it together yeah i had a a sentence that i was remembering as i listened to your question and it's a quote by david kessler in his book finding meaning the sixth stage of grief and it says each person's grief is as unique as their fingerprints but what everyone has in common is that no matter how they grief they share a need for their grief to be witnessed and that doesn't mean needing someone to try to lessen it or reframe it for them the need is for someone to be fully present to the magnitude of their loss without trying to point out the silver lining what is your question um why is grief so confusing and why does it bring out i think it's brought out the best and the highest in me and other people and also the worst mm-hmm meaning that you get contempt and you get upset when people don't meet you when you feel that you are in the gulf of this unbearable unending pain and they're just living on a different planet mm-hmm or they they try to yeah like be the silver lining and i don't usually want a silver line i also love the way you said grief is this intelligence it's telling me a lot of different things you know there's another line that david has that i often think in the because it's so he says you don't have to experience grief but you can only avoid it by avoiding love love and grief are inextricably intertwined so when you think about this grief you can only avoid it by avoiding love and grief are inextricably intertwined so when you think about this grief you can only avoid it by avoiding love and grief are inextricably intertwined so when you think about this unbearable pain it connects directly to two people that you cared about and loved deeply and sometimes we think people don't understand my grief because they don't understand the magnitude of my loss but sometimes it's because they don't understand the magnitude of my love so you say i'm surprised that i'm having nasty thoughts primitive feelings primitive feelings primitive feelings that are unbecoming to me they're not who i that are unbecoming to me they're not who i that are unbecoming to me they're not who i am usually am usually am usually and this grief is kind of making me feel and this grief is kind of making me feel and this grief is kind of making me feel and say and do things that are unusual for and say and do things that are unusual for and say and do things that are unusual for me me me what am i learning from it this is the what am i learning from it this is the what am i learning from it this is the the intelligence right it's like the intelligence right it's like the intelligence right it's like yeah grief is not always sweet polished yeah grief is not always sweet polished yeah grief is not always sweet polished well-behaved well-behaved well-behaved by far it puts you in touch with the extremes it puts you in touch with the extremes it puts you in touch with the extremes yeah tell me more yeah tell me more yeah tell me more i almost feel i almost feel i almost feel it's like when i've had those losses it's like when i've had those losses it's like when i've had those losses part of me died and is like still dying part of me died and is like still dying part of me died and is like still dying but then another part of me but then another part of me but then another part of me is like being born is like being born is like being born and and like uh my family of origin i and and like uh my family of origin i and and like uh my family of origin i think think think died as i knew it and it's still just died as i knew it and it's still just died as i knew it and it's still just kind of like rubble of people trying to figure out kind of the new i don't know if it's like a new baby that's been born we're all just like kind of clumsy and we're all handling it differently but then i guess the parts that i like are the extreme things that i didn't do before are that i'm i just have like a sensitivity to other people to like to people's pain to people's just like how they are i notice things like i notice faces and like facial features and i i like to think that i like scroll on my phone less you know and it's all it is like this primitive thing i notice animals i notice like the wind i never noticed that before I have developed an uncanny awareness in the details of the world around me. The human world, the animal world, the natural world, the spiritual world. I notice absence and I notice presence. I notice joy. I notice pain and suffering. I notice calm. I notice agitation. I notice security. I notice fear. But it will, yeah. And the, like the mystery, I don't think I've ever been one that accepts, yeah, a lot of mystery, but there's just so much uncertainty and impermanence and. It's beautiful and it's also just painful sometimes. Incredibly fragile. Yes. Who is left in the family of origin? And who is the chosen family? There may be more than one. Yes. The chosen family, my husband and two children. I have a toddler and then a seven-year-old. And then my family of origin, my mom. And two older brothers. And are there other members of the chosen family that were very connected to your family of origin? Extended family, friends, neighbors? Yeah. Yes. And have there been rituals that have brought all the people together? Because the person died, but the relationship didn't die. Mm-hmm. The only thing I can think of is the funeral. And since the funeral? No. Neither for your sister nor for your father? No. And is that something you feel a need to do? Yes. Okay. For both of them, separately, together, one of them? Probably both of them. Separately or together? Separately. I chose to not attend a family reunion that was like six months after she died. Mm-hmm. They like released lanterns. So I guess everyone went to that except for me and my chosen family. Mm-hmm. Why not? Because it was too painful to think about being with everyone. And I felt too reactive, I'm not sure why, other than my gut just said, like, "I can't go right now." Mm-hmm. But you were not against it happening? No. You just didn't feel, you felt too bereft to be there? Yes. Mm-hmm. And would your family understand if you said, Mm-hmm. "I think I'm, I need something now." Yes. "And I would love for us to be on this together." Mm-hmm. And what would you want it to be? If you could design the ritual. Rituals is one of the ways that every culture and civilization has dealt with loss and mourning and grief. For my sister, it would be something with, Mm-hmm. dancing, and just kind of, like, a wild, uh-- Party? Party, yeah. With, like, karaoke. She'd always, you know, we're opposites in many ways, but she was always up for anything, any rest--she'd get up at any restaurant in front of any number of people and just sing her heart out. She didn't care what people thought. Mm-hmm. In one way. Mm-hmm. So yeah, something like that. Mm-hmm. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us, and let's see where this goes. Support for "Where Should We Begin?" comes from Quinn. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. For some of you, that might be a relief. Autumn means cooler weather, which also means it might be time to find some cozy, cold weather staples. Enter Quinn's. 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The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Is her death by suicide a surprise for you? Or something you worried and anticipated? Or where does it last? I mean, it was fully on all of our radar. She had been in the hospital. She was on all kinds of meds. So it didn't shock me on one hand. But on the other hand, it's shocking. You're seeing something as you're saying this. I don't think, oh, I know she didn't want to die. I just think she was too sick. And she wanted to be out of pain. And so I think she must have, well, I don't know. I'm just giving my meaning to the story. But the only thing that makes sense is that she had to have believed that everyone would be better. If she weren't here. You know, this isn't the first time she'd had really, you know, kind of scary depression. She'd been suicidal before. But it had worked out. And this time it didn't. And you have tried to tell her many times this idea that we would be better off without you. It's so off. Mm-hmm. I miss you. Mm-hmm. I miss you deeply every day. Yeah. Do you talk to her? No. I have written a few letters to her. And my therapist, like, invited me to just have a list of unanswerable questions. I haven't done it in a while. Mm-hmm. But I. I mean, I see her kids. She has three little girls. Mm-hmm. and i talked to them and you talk about her yeah yeah i do i try to be present with her kids i know that she like when she was healthy you know she could be present with them and she she was obsessed with them in a way that any mom understands and even you know at the end it just was so disturbing because she would yeah she couldn't be present with them her body was there but she didn't want to be there and i'm sure that her kids at some level knew that so i try to make eye contact with him and just be engaged with him and do karaoke yes i haven't done karaoke but and you dance with them yeah yeah that's what she would do her death is such it seems just so catastrophic that i don't always remember my dad i think that he died almost because i mean being more aware just like feeling almost primitive like it's expected that your parent will die before you my dad was 50 when i was born and so you know he already people thought he was my grandpa growing up and i just i think i knew inside he was going to die but then the out of orderness and that she my sister was younger she was the youngest it was just so shocking and almost makes my dad's death look like happy his passing is the is in the normal order of things but hers is a an abrupt interruption yeah do you have witnesses who can hold you who can just let you go through it without rationalizing without trying to make it into a lesson or yeah i do or without trying to minimize it for that matter who just know this is so painful acute at first and lonely very very lonely because it feels like no one can reach you there and it doesn't end as in it's not something one gets true we become bigger and we learn to include it inside ourselves to hold it but we expand around it rather than getting through it and it takes time and it takes rituals that celebrate her that mourn her that give meaning to who she was not just to her absence and some of those primitive feelings you have are all quite normal because we are angry that this happened it's unfair it's stupid it feels how can i accept this can't be true i still can't believe it so we have to denial we have the anger we have the problem to accept it and then we do yes she was struggling and it wasn't totally surprising but but if this if that and we circle around and circle around and if she was here today she would say and she would think and she would smile and she and so she goes but the relationship between her and her relationship stays it's actually not that confusing as you were asking it's about wow this thing takes me to places i never knew existed inside of me from the acute awareness to what you tell me well i don't know rage mm-hmm and the rage says my pain hurts more than yours or yeah your problems are small mm-hmm you bug the out of me go away good keep going there's many parts in you this is one the rage he looks at people he says this is what makes you struggle you want to want me to show you mine yeah but then the same another part in you sorry not the same another part in you recognizes those who don't know sometimes how to express it and zooms into that pain and says i see you that's part of that hyper awareness right mm-hmm what does that part say that this pain like your pain's mine yeah is there another part um that yeah this is this like beautiful dimension i've never known about and sometimes i wouldn't mind not knowing about it and in a way like the realization that i don't think any of us have as long as we think sometimes and so just to you know less pretending more honesty mm-hmm so i don't just feel the fragility i also feel the preciousness treasure it savor it don't take it for granted don't waste it don't just walk like a ghost through it value it appreciate it hold on to it fight for it keep going um there's um an author julian barnes do you know him you probably know the book that this is from but he has a metaphor about that we emerge we don't emerge from grief like a train coming out of a tunnel strong and fast and into the light we are more like a seagull that comes out of an oil slick tarred and feathered for life and sometimes i feel like the train and sometimes i feel like the seagull it's beautiful we are in the midst of our session there is still so much to talk about so stay with us on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app right now when you buy more 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I'd love to see you in Esther's Office Hours. Do you want the ritual about your sister to be you with her and a few of the people who knew her? Or would you actually like, I want to bring together other people who have experienced loss? I think the circle of people that knew her. Okay. There's a lot of them. Okay. And what has stopped you from doing it? Affinity. Contempt and rage at them. Some of them. You say this with a smile. It's embarrassing, but there have been certain people that have been great and other people that I know would want to be included. And I don't know why. It's like I'm a predator that's like picked them because I feel offended at things that they've said. Or that they've dealt with this differently. So I could invite everyone but them. So the part of you that has experienced these peaks of contempt. Give me one. Someone right after she died telling me that she knew that my sister was in the arms of Jesus. Just, I don't know. It hit something in me. And felt like I just wish she hadn't have said anything. What did it mean for you, this? It meant for me that somehow it's good that people are with Jesus instead of with their families and their young children. People that depend on them. And I know she didn't mean like this, but it suggests that somehow this was determined. Meant to be? Yeah, determined. This was part of the plan. And that's probably not what this person meant, but it just bristled me. I want to be someone who can just understand that people say things like that. And they still should be able to be afforded like their own space. Maybe. Maybe you will. With time. But not yet. Or not when this was said. Because this, the part of you that responded, that rage part, that part that says, how dare you make this into something that was almost a good thing to happen. No. At the beginning you don't accept. So you don't accept. And the anger part and the contempt, they all come together to basically say, do not try to make this into something that had a meaning or a purpose. Make sense. At some point, maybe later, somebody says something and you say, that's their view. That's how they go through it. But at first, it is a combination of emotions that knock at each other. It's a combustion. It's confusing. It's not really confusing, but it feels confusing because it's intense because it's a bunch of stuff coming from left field that you never knew existed inside of you. Like when we love. Like you do things, yeah, do things that are not logical. Yep. And when we face sudden loss, it's similar things can happen to us. So, I see this as developmental. I see this as part of the arc of the experience. I don't see this as this is it. You're not today where you were six months ago. You won't be in the same place six months from now. But you do want to create the ritual that you didn't have it in you at the time to participate in. And maybe you'll have one every year on her birthday and you'll let a dove go out or you'll do something that symbolizes all these things that don't have to be said in words. It can have music. It can have dance. It can have drums. It can have people stand up in a circle when they have something to say and they're moved and called to say something and then sit back. And every time you see her three girls, you will, you know, you will see her in part, not only, but you'll see her and you are one of the main people through whom they will get to know her. Is she talked about? Is she spoken about between mom and your brothers and you? Not as much as I want, I think. I'm usually one to bring her up. I brought her up recently at this social event and I'm always unsure what my family thinks. But I think the worst thing is just to not even mention her, pretend like she never existed. I don't think they think that, but there's kind of an awkwardness when you're in settings or when people ask how many people are in your family or that's a chance to bring her up. So I usually, yeah, so this time I said we have a baby sister who's in heaven. And then I was too nervous to look at my family. When you come together for the holidays this year, how long will it have been? A year and a half since she died. Okay. We all have experienced her loss in our own way, like our own fingertips. But we can all be witnesses for each other in how we each are living with this loss. Shall we take a moment and just kind of check in with each other? A pulse check. Something, where are you at with the big changes that we have just faced in our family? I know that we are not typically a family that speaks about these things, but I also think that we have not typically experienced any of these things and therefore we need to be able to be able to breathe together, so to speak, to breathe her presence, her absence, as well as that and acknowledge it and celebrate them and mention them and have them be absent, present, present, absent. Last Thanksgiving, her husband would talk about her and even though they were maybe stories that didn't highlight her strengths, it just felt good. There were, We haven't forgotten. her yeah and then your family doesn't have to live like you they don't have to feel the same as you do there needs to be room for each person those who want to speak those who don't those who want to cry those who don't those who cry with others those who cry alone we're all going to be different each one highlighting different ways to experience and express grief the most common one is those who say let's remember and those who say we don't have to bring it up each time those who say let's move on and those who say how can you and they seem to each say cancel each other out when in fact both of these exist inside each of us but in a family sometimes instead of holding them inside of us and holding those tensions and those polarities they get outsourced onto other people yeah so one person one brother becomes the one who says oh come on you know let's only talk about the children the little ones the future and the other one says but what about the past but in fact they absolutely need each other they are part of the holistic experience holding on letting go remembering forgetting the past the future the joy of her life the sadness of her death her strength her illness if you fight your brothers you do to them what you don't like people doing to you because people become judgmental over how the other person is dealing with it rather than hey we each have a different way we are different people we're holding on our grief is like our fingertips or fingerprints sorry and i love that image because the fingerprints are as personal and unique to you so tell me about your fingerprints i'll tell you about mine and then just listening yeah make room it's the collective of each person's individual way that actually begins to resemble the multiple parts of this experience no one has to take care of all the pieces one person makes sure to bring it up at the table and the other one makes sure that we don't spend the whole evening about it and instead of getting annoyed with the one who changed topic it actually is good because it says we include but we also grow loss you know we tend to often talk about the trauma of the loss and we don't always highlight that there is much more post-traumatic growth than there is actually post-traumatic stress in many instances this being maybe one of them so when i find myself being like when i look back since she's died i think my level of critique of certain people or certain things is just like 10 out of 10 and i hate well in the moment it feels good but i hate it and so i don't understand that it's because i'm critiquing myself but i'm pinning it on other people they are often expressing the parts of this that i do not express okay and that makes that is not that is quite good because it's the collective of all the pieces that creates the universal human experience around grief who knows what your whole and your loss and your gap and your emptiness but we all hover around the same area we know i know that you know that i know that you know we don't have to compare compete who's the greater victim who suffered more all of that and so in the family people will express different parts of the experience it's the role distribution around it this happens along around many things in a family but in fact they all belong together if you didn't have one brother who said can we talk about something else you would have to deal with the part inside of you that has to begin to think when is it okay to talk about something else or even necessary because the complexity of these experiences is that they hold contradictions and multitudes shall we stop here yeah does that feel like a good place yeah okay i wish you special holidays thank you and i think you you're going into the holidays with this hopefully with this new frame in mind yeah okay all right thank you so much you're welcome bye-bye have a good day bye so this was an ester call for you today and i hope you enjoyed it and i hope you enjoyed it and i hope you are calling a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world if you have a question you'd like to explore with ester could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call send her a voice message and ester might just call you send your question to producer at esterperel.com where should we begin with ester perel is produced by magnificent noise we're part of the vox media podcast network in partnership with new york magazine and the cut our production staff includes eric newsom destry sibley sabrina farhi kristen muller and julian original music and additional production by paul schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin are ester perel and jesse baker we'd also like to thank courtney hamilton mary alice miller and jack saul ball is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks your favorite fall flavors are back at starbucks the one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and we'll see you next time on ester perel and are ready to sip all season long or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks