Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler

[Music] I'm excited for this chat. You are going to be a happy song for people just by having this conversation. Thank you. I think we have the illusion that grief is somehow this straight arrow, better, better, better, and it really is just a big mess. What's the goal of grief? It's to remember with more love than pain in your own time, in your own way. Grief must be witnessed. We need to witness without fixing. There is no, let me point out the bright side, let me get you to a better place. Let me let you have your experience. And I don't know what it's like for you, but I'm just going to show up and be with you. One of the things about grief and loss and breakups and divorce and betrayals and death and everything is we continue. Right. We survive. We're very resilient. I always say we're resilient and fragile. None of this is logical. It's matters of the heart. [Music] Hi everyone. Chloe in Wonderland is going to be taking a two week spring break. New episodes will resume on Wednesday, May 14th. I'll see you guys then. [Music] Hi David. Thank you so much for being here. You are the most renowned expert in grief. And you've written so many books about it. And I'm just so excited to chat with you today. So thank you. You and I were just chatting on the side and I was saying how I'm so excited for this conversation because I really believe it's going to help so many people. Channel their own grief in whatever capacity they have it in. And I don't think grief is spoken about as much. I think people feel a lot of shame in grieving or the timeline of what they feel like they need to meet this grieving expectations by. I'm not for any of that. And I know you're not either. But I just wanted to first dive into how you came to the position that you're in helping millions of people process grief. And what what occurrences happened in your life that brought you to this stage. I'm so glad we're doing this publicly because it's so important for people to get these conversations modeled. Yes. Because no one does it. So as you can imagine, I grew up with a mother who was a normal mom, but she had some illnesses. And then she had to go to the big city hospital, which was hours away. Now, no one decides like I wasn't in third grade or fifth grade. And everyone's talking about police officer. Oh, no, I want to be a fireman. And I'm like, it's death and grief available. No one thinks that, right? So it's a profession that chooses you. Right. So she has to go to the hospital. We're there. You have to be 14 to visit. I'm 13. That was in the day when families were like a little bit of an interruption of the healing process. Spent a lot of time in the hospital lobby. Then at a certain point, we're at our hotel across the way. And someone starts yelling fire. Everyone runs out. We're all outside looking at this fire on the 18th floor. Fire trucks pulls up. I'm kind of a bored kid. So this is interesting at first. And then when they start to extend the ladder, shooting starts. Oh wow. It turns out it was an active shooter. It went on for hours and hours. Oh my gosh. It's now considered one of the first mass shootings in the US. And I saw police officers and hotel guests killed. My father was desperately trying to get us back to the hospital. We finally get back. And then in a couple of days, my mother dies without me being able to be with her. I'm downstairs. And I even remember them bringing me upstairs to see her after she had died. And I had been so upset about all the rules. That by that point, I remember seeing her hand. And so wanting to hold it one last time. I came away from all of that. Number one, realizing there was no one there to help me back then. And I've kind of tried to grow into the person who could have helped me. Yes. And I also wanted to make end of life and grief better for people. I mean, we're all going to go through it. It's like the death rate is 100%. We're all going to go through it. It's inevitable. And we don't talk about it. I think we don't talk about it because it's so final. And people don't want to accept that finality. Right. And it's a pain. You know, I often say, I'm talking to people about what our great grandparents knew. How to be with the dying. How to be with people in grief. How to talk about it. You know, if you want to see death now, it's kind of in a TV show or movies. And what do we see there? We see the first episode. Someone's diagnosed or dying. The second episode, person cries, third episode, back to life. Right. And grief has a longer shadow than that. Yes, it does. I mean, you just made a good point about our grandparents or great-grandparents. They would converse so much more about death than it would be more of the norm, if you will. Do you think that has to do with sort of, I don't want to say the loss of religion, but religion isn't as strong as it used to be 50 years ago. I think it's partly religion. I think with that, we've lost rituals. Religion has wonderful rituals and its spirituality has wonderful rituals. There's also changes that happened in the 40s. Illness moved into the hospital. It used to be in our home. So I think we lost a sense of this part of life. Right. But do you feel like people are more accepting of death and grief because we've sort of been faced with so much of it? I think COVID got us talking about it. Right. Like how did you not talk about what was happening? We had to all talk about the loneliness, the isolation, the collective grief. It wasn't just one of us that happened to all of us. So there's all those feelings that came up that I think finally are getting it talked about more and more. And I'm so glad. I think the other thing that COVID helped with is we often think about death and grief as those two are the only grief. But I always say grief is a change you didn't want. So a breakup is the death of that relationship in the romantic form. A divorce is the death of a marriage. A job loss is the death of that paycheck with those people. In COVID, we collectively lost our freedom, our contact, our touching one another. So we live with so many types of grief and loss. And I am so glad we're finally talking about it more. I loved, I saw an interview you did. And I loved what you said. You were on a walk during COVID with a friend of yours and someone came up to you and was expressing her grief over having to reschedule her wedding. And you just lost your son not too long before that. And your friend was like, I can't once the lady left. I can't believe she had the audacity to go on and on about this wedding with everything you were going through. And you were like, no, it's not a comparison, not a competition. And it is such a profound empathetic way to think about people. And you're right, it's not about comparison or mine's bigger than yours because it is still a loss. And it's that person's reality. And it's interesting that people always want to know which is the worst grief. Is it the death of a child? Is it a murder? Is it this? Is it the marriage where the person is still rejecting you and all those things? And what I said to my friend in that moment is she's 20 years old. Her marriage got canceled because of COVID. She couldn't have her wedding. For her, that is her worst loss. She hasn't had the other things. And I think we too get into a mindset of trying to compare. But it's about our experience and no two people grieve alike. Every grief is so completely unique like our fingerprint. And so to understand that when we're comparing, we're in our mind. And we don't have a broken mind, we have a broken heart. You're right. What are some tools that you could share with people about dealing with grief? I think talking about it. You know, sometimes people will say, "My friend had this horrible loss and they're so isolated." And I often think you might be a victim of this. isolating them. And we isolate them when we don't see the world as they do. Like, what's the world like through your eyes? Through my eyes. Everyone's got a different world, especially when it comes to grief. And so it's that idea of listening and being present. And one of the things I don't think we understand is grief must be witnessed. You know, there is no. Let me point out the bright side. Let me get you to a better place. But let me let you have your experience. I couldn't agree more. I lost my dad when I was 19. And I can't tell you what people said to me, but I can tell you who showed up for me. Because you're in this state. It doesn't. I'm 40 now. It doesn't matter that I was 19. You're sort of in this, what least I was in this fog and just living life through autopilot for a while. And I. You don't have a clue really what you're doing. You're just navigating the best you can. And so I think I always try to remind the people around me when they are dealing with someone else's loss and they are that person that they want to know how do they show up for someone. I just tell them to show up. Yes. And as long as you're there and yes, not trying to be like, I'm going to get you through this. Like people have to feel their feelings and it could be so uncomfortable for that other person that's trying to be the supportive person because you feel like you're never doing enough. But just by being there, you really are. And you're trying to find the right words. And your scenario and situation is so true of what happened to you. It's not what people said that you remember. It's how they were there that they showed up. And the other thing you mentioned that I just want to point out is it's actually been proven with science. There's a thing called grief brain. Brain fog that you get when we're in grief, we can't focus. We can't concentrate. We can't remember. And that's why we need people in our lives to show up. One of the things we say to grievers is, what do you need? I don't know what I need. I'm barely getting through the day. I didn't make a list. I didn't think they were going to die. You know, right. So here's the deal. You guys know I love snacking and I love popcorn. But I'm also always looking for ways to eat more protein during the day. That's why I created cloud popcorn. It has three times the protein of your standard popcorn and it tastes delicious. I created cloud because I wanted a popcorn that pulls its weight with no trade offs. Cloud is crafted from whole grain popcorn, sourced from Nebraska and is non GMO gluten free kosher and free from both seed oils and added flavors. 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Did you know your body naturally makes glutathione. But as you hit your late 20s and 30s, those levels start to dip. Enter symbiotica's light basomal glutathione. It helps recharge your cells, fight off toxins and age gracefully. Just one packet a day and you're giving your body the support it needs to thrive. It really is that easy. And let me tell you, after taking this product for a consistent month or two, I feel different. Better, younger, firmer, brighter, more energized, all of it. You can even throw some packets into your purse or carry on for a girls trip like I did recently and save yourself the hangovers. Glutathione helps detox, so you're left feeling your best even after a little overindulgence. Ready to glow from the inside out? Refresh your spring routine with 25% off and free shipping at symbiotica.com/clowy. That's CYM BIO TICA.com/clowy for 25% off and free shipping. Can I ask you? Of course. So you mentioned it was at 19 when he died. Grief is what's inside of us. Trauma and grief are what's inside of us. It's not really about the details. It's how we experience them. How did you experience it at that time? It was interesting. So when my dad died really quickly, he had a soft-adjial cancer. And I think he died like six or seven weeks after diagnosis of his cancer. So it was really fast. And my dad, I don't think was lying to us. I don't think he could accept himself that it was terminal, but he never used those words with us. So I just thought, oh, if I don't see him, this isn't real. So I at 19 sort of distracted myself with my friends. And when he did die, I remember what guilt I felt for not spending more time with him. But then that guilt turned into anger. Because then I was like, oh no, I'm going to, I need someone to blame. So I'm going to blame my dad because he didn't tell me that it was terminal. And in my head, I rationalized it. If he would have told me, I would have showed up more. But I don't know if I would have. I just dealt with his passing the best way I knew how. And my dad was a healthy, shaped man. And then towards the end of he died in hospice at the house. And towards the end, he was very thin. And it was really hard for me to see him like that. And so I think I would have stayed away, regardless because at 19, I didn't know what else to do. I wasn't mature enough to be like, this is the right thing to do. I want to sit with him. I've limited time. I didn't think that way just a dumb 19 year old. But I would say, huh, I got to stop you. Yeah, I got to stop you. You weren't dumb. You weren't dumb. Just, you know, we are judgment machines on planet earth. We are. We are judgment machines. And I could maybe compete with you on self judgment. I probably would win. But you know, here's the thing. People say to me, I love one's ill. I'm going to force my 19 year old, my 15 year old to spend time with him. One of the things I say to young people and people who are adults, you're doing grief right. You were doing it in character as a 19 year old. 19 year olds don't know how to do it. And you had a father who didn't know how to die. It kind of goes right back to. He was as much in the dark too. We don't teach people how to die. Right. And so he's lost. You are lost. So what are you going to do? You're going to be a 19 year old. Yeah. There's no dumb in that. Well, and it's interesting because every obviously I would love more than anything to have my father still here with me. But now that I'm older, there's so many life lessons that I've learned to navigate my life now 10 years ago. A friend of mine, she passed away this past Halloween and left behind a 13 year old daughter. And you know, the daughter when her mom was dying still wanted to go out and celebrate Halloween. And I remember saying to all of our friends, I did the same thing. And I didn't I don't think I shed a tear and tell his funeral because it wasn't real to me. I just remember I was avoiding avoiding. And then the funeral was like, okay, now this is my reality. And I processed it. But it's so interesting things that I would probably be so judgmental on. If I didn't have the experience of losing my father, I have so much empathy and understanding for when other people are on their journey. And as horrible as it is, but there's so many different elements of who I am today that I wouldn't be if my dad was here because he would be that person that we would always lean on like there's so much. I don't want to say good that came out of him passing because that's not the right thing to say. But with such grief, you can find these glimmers of greatness that does come or like I forever have this guardian angel that I know things are working out because he's up there meddling around. And how lucky they are to have you and you're in their life because you do know this world. You get you know, once we've had a loss, we get X-ray vision. You're like, oh, I know that 13 year old now. I want to go back if we can to the guilt and anger. Because I want to make sure to give folks some understanding of this. First of all, anger is grief. I think many people don't realize it's grief. And anger I often think is pain's bodyguard. It is. The anger shows up first to protect you. and 19 year old you had to shut down on all of that to survive. You know I I always say if you had all the feelings of your father's death in that day and I had all the feelings of either my mother's death or my younger son's death in one day we would be on the floor and we would never get up. Right. There's a grace and denial. You're so right about that. Denial paces things out so that we can digest it a little slower. You couldn't have taken it right. And the guilt I always say and this is an interesting one to think about we would always rather feel guilty than helpless. A 19 year old or anyone really when they experienced grief sometimes life is out of control. What he died some work people could die. So what happens are guilt gives us the illusion of control. Oh maybe if I had showed up more it'd be different. It would feel different. All that and it's like a Rubik's cube that we play with so that the feelings don't overpower us. Right. Can you go back and see that 19 year old different now? I can't go thoughts. No I can completely and I think what's so interesting is how you said it comes in phases because we couldn't handle it if it was all knocked us off of our feet in one wave and you're so right about that and I think we should almost think the phases and encourage that as a whole. Absolutely. Absolutely because it is you get just so flooded with so many emotions. So that's how you held it then. How do you hold his death today? I'm totally at peace with his death. I will say for about I always say that for about three years I was incredibly angry and I was filming my show keeping up with the Kardashians and on season one I remember one of my producers was making me do an interview about my dad because I wouldn't talk about my dad because at that time if I spoke about him I would just break down and I was so annoyed at this producer I was like why are they making me sit in this dark room and talk about something I don't want to talk about and it was honestly how we said at the beginning of this conversation we're so happy that because people do need to talk about this more it was as if a house got lifted off of me after that conversation and I was kicking and screaming while doing it but as soon as I had that conversation that was the last time that I cried when talking about my dad like in a bad way I let go of all of this guilt and anger and now I could talk about my dad with smiles and happiness and admiration and understanding even the understanding of because I used to be so angry why would he need to tell us that this was terminal and but I could understand how hard now that I have kids too how hard that would have to be to admit to yourself I'm not gonna be here for my children but maybe he also he's Superman right like maybe he thought it wouldn't be terminal and that he could fight that there's a lot of right he was going to maybe beat it at the end or I can have a million conversations with strangers it's really hard like oh my gosh even to talk to my older son about you know his younger brother's death it's hard to see like for your dad I think about to have to look into all of your faces your sister your brother and to say goodbye yeah I mean brutal brutal brutal yes and so it's the best he could do it's how society taught him we also have a medical system that misleads people we don't know how to even tell people who are dying the truth always right and prepare family still today that oh you know there is a time for optimism and I'm the most optimistic person in the world there's a time for optimism and I believe you and I am and there is a time when optimism becomes denial and we're not graded understanding that that's why these kind of conversations just will mean the world to people who are like no one's talked to me and you know the thing that the producer did I'm always I I say people need to do this in their own time in their own way so I wish you would have had more choice than that it was very producer heavy like in hindsight but it it did got you there get me over that because somehow they became the camera the audience became a safe place for you to talk and what you learned is we can't heal what we don't feel right and you got to say it I also know that you know we both love writing and one of the things I love about writing is it's a place you can witness your own grief because we have distortions we have stories around death I remember I used to always think since my mother died at 13 she abandoned me and then I did this exercise with myself on paper I wrote this story out from my father's perspective who wasn't good with grief I thought what's it like for him his wife's dying and he's got this kid he doesn't know how to raise what's it like for these nurses they won't let me in oh they've been told these rules that are best for the patient and then I thought about my mother this woman who asked to say goodbye to her child does it know why people aren't visiting she probably didn't know about the visiting hours and once I put it on paper I suddenly got my mother didn't abandon me she died a abandonment was a story my distorted mind made up as a child children's minds always think they're at fault or something's wrong where do you think you get your optimism from because all the events that you said to me right now that would make me so angry at all of those individuals oh anger is my go-to emotion oh believe me I get angry it's like one of my go-to emotions but I try to really release it my father was steeped in his addiction didn't know how to be apparent but oh my gosh the biggest optimist if I said to my father I think I want to be an astronaut he would go well which planet he would never say well how's your eyesight do you think you'll get in I mean and I think I got some of it from him I got a lot of other things from him I wish I didn't but I got a lot of good things from him too but like you said not to be confused with what you say denial right yes as we confuse like you know at a certain point optimism can become denial right and I'll tell you sometimes people can also distort religion and spirituality I mean what breaks my heart so many times is I'll hear a child say I guess I didn't very hard enough oh that's so sad and I try to really teach people you know that the idea that sometimes healing is enough the body and we so internalize everything I know and with children they're like puddle jumpers just like you they go into the pain then they jump out back to school they play they go in they go out and they have to do grief their way one of things people often ask me that you already have mentioned here is what's the goal of grief it's to remember with more love than pain in your own time in your own way not anyone else's way not the person who's telling you to move on or get over it or why are you still in it but in your time in your way you know you mentioned the idea of some of the gifts that you got from your dad's death I talk about that as meaning and just like you said people think like oh wait how does something good happen I always say no matter what comes out of anyone's death I'd rather have them back that goes without sin yes but I know when my younger son died he loved my work and I had that moment that I thought I live in this cute little neighborhood these little small cute houses and I pictured someday in the future teenagers riding by my house and going who lives in the haunted house what's that cobwebs all that and someone would go ooh it's the grief expert and then one day his son died and he never came out again hmm the way I knew that could happen well and you know I thought my son loved my work so much his death can constrict it or expand it yes and all of us after we've had any kind of grief after we've gone through so much of the pain, so much of the hurt on our time, then have a decision to make, right? Do we stay or do we begin to swim again? Does this event constrict us or expand us? And I love, you know, how things have expanded you and how you can get messy and show it and you know, I I think we all need that in life. So I'm gonna get messier and your honor online. I want to let people know that you know one of the things people realize is all the colors of grief. People think it's happy, sad, angry. No, it's not. Right. There's bitter. There's jealous. There's upset. There's good days. There's bad days. There's a million of them. You're right. And not that I feel like you need to do that. I just if because if you're not feeling that that's in you to do, then don't force yourself to do it. Just the same thing. If you're still grieving, don't force yourself to have an end date because somebody else and there is no end date. No. I mean, people say to me like my love one there, my sister, someone died. So tell me my brother, my mom, dad, how long are how long we're gonna grieve? And I always go, well, how long are they gonna be dead? Right. If they're gonna be dead for a long time, you're gonna grieve for a long time. But hopefully with more love. When we talk, I feel your dad's love through this. One of the things I always say is it's talked about Einstein that energy can't be created or destroyed. Let me say this all the time. And when your dad died, a part of you died with him, but a part of him lives on in you that replaced that part. So we're always still whole after people die because we have a part of them with us. Yeah. I believe that for sure. Do you ever feel him? Yes. I feel him a lot. My sister, Kim, will dream about him. I don't necessarily dream of him, which sometimes I get jealous about. Right. Right. And I'm like, well, why does she get to see him in the dreams? And I don't. But then I try to, you know, be happy for her. And I'm like, okay, it's fine. Because I feel him in ways that she doesn't. I think we all, me and all my siblings, we do in different ways. And you all had different relationships with him. And my little sisters who, that's not their biological, that's not their dad. They have signs because they were really close to him and they feel him or he'll come to them. And I think it's such a beautiful thing. Some people get scared or sad. And I, I look for it. I love that. And I think it's fascinating. It is the place where psychology and religion, I think coincide years ago, it was thought, let's help someone find closure. And we know now, we don't close the book ever. And we learn to live with that loss. And now we talk about continuing connections, continuing bonds. I wore my dad's old antique watch today in honor of us talking about fathers, you know, that he still lives within me. And one of the things that was really shocking to me, this is the other side, is when my father was dying, he was just in such despair. And at one point, a day or two before it shifted. And he seemed okay. And I said, what happened? And he said, your mother came to visit me. Oh, wow. And I'm going to be with her again. Ah, doesn't that give you a little absolute place? And he said, you know, we're all going to be together again. And I did a lot of research on that about this idea of how the dead come to greet the dying. Wow. And how all religions, people, no matter who you are in the world, this experience happens. And I think that veil between life and death is thin. And it's meaningful. And for us to just be a little more open, I mean, as so many times we want proof, but I think religion tells us, spirituality tells us. And psychology now says, those bonds continue. You know, I always say, don't give death any more power than it already has. It has the power to physically take our loved ones. It doesn't have the power to end their eternal life. It doesn't have the power to end our relationship. 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And listeners of our show get 15% off their first purchase when using the code Chloe at checkout. That's an additional 15% off at fastgrowingtrees.com using the code Chloe at checkout. Once again fastgrowingtrees.com/clowy. Now's the perfect time to plant. Use Chloe to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. I have no fear of dying at all. Because I know where I'm going, I know who I'm going to see. Like I have such faith and confidence in that. I'm not I don't want to leave my children, but I'm not afraid of when it is my time to go. I just hope it's in a very long time. Are you someone that has a fear of death? It depends on the day. Okay. And this is a hard world to leave. So there's been times when I'm like, oh yeah, if it happened, I'd be fine. And one of the things I really try to practice is enough. Am I enough? Can this be it? Because and yet I also know from being with so many dying people, we don't let go of this body easy. We want to stay. We want to be there for our loved ones. They never look ready. Feel ready. So I think it is hard, but in terms of just fear of death, no, like you, I'm like, what if we don't arrive into an emptiness, but instead we're in a fullness? Everyone we've ever loved and known is there with us. You know, what if birth isn't a beginning and death isn't an ending? When I've been with people who have died, there's an essence to them. Like there's an essence I feel. And sometimes with your with people who are dying, six months, a month, an hour, depending on if they were in a coma, whatever, you can feel they're kind of gone already. Right. And when you're with someone who's died and you're with their body, they're gone. Whoever that was, that energy, that was a suit of clothes that we wore this lifetime. Have you ever been around someone who has passed and then came back to life like had a near death experience? I've met people with near death experience. I've also met a lot of people who were, you know, revived and you know, sometimes they see the tunnel, sometimes they don't and all those things. And what's fascinating to me is in all my years of this work and people sitting with people who visit as they're dying relatives, it's always comforting. No one goes, oh, I don't want to go there. Sometimes they go, I don't want to go yet. Right. But it's really interesting that people seem to find peace even if it's in that last second. Mm-hmm. I read a bunch of books about near death experiences. I don't know why I'm a little more a bit and find that just so fascinating to me. And most of the time when they are now back and living again, they feel this emptiness, not that they want to die. But just what they saw was so peaceful and beautiful and they did see familiar faces or Energy feelings. It's like reassuring. It's absolutely for me. I felt like oh my gosh, you know the end of life the end And I had my own religious and spiritual beliefs but when I did my research and writing around How the dead come to greet the dying and it was interesting the people that I interviewed Were doctors nurses social workers paramedics because they didn't want anyone to sort of dispute that about all their stories Who in the corner of the room? Their dad was there their mom Someone came to greet them. We don't die alone That's so beautiful. We don't you know whether it's their religious belief happens and No one got anyone That upset them you don't see an enemy and all that there was actually one person who She had been a victim of domestic violence and I remember when she was dying She was so afraid that the person who heard her was going to be there waiting because he had already died and she died so peacefully We you know there's there's something about It's only the love then it's only the love we're with what is your release? Through times like that because you've seen so many people die right before you so when does it not I'm sure at a certain point It just becomes Enorm for you seeing that or does it ever it has made me? appreciate life more I Feel more present there's times I'm in a really bad space and I have to see someone or go online or do something and like Takes me to a higher place. It's it is my meditation when I'm serving someone and We're all gonna experience this and it makes me take more joy in life this is a world we've all been given and When we're stressed and in trouble. I'm like okay feel it enjoy it This is what stress feels like on planet earth and do not you know? I think it's not about being so heavenly you're no earthly good. It's like oh This is this world. This is what happens. This is how we live here Oh, this is what a bad day feels like let me enjoy a bad day on planet earth without trying to change it One of the things when I work with people in grief I often work through a lot of the what ifs What if I had done this what if I had tried this what and you can learn this with people in life? We all have you don't even need to die all of the what ifs and Then I go through the what ifs And I help them understand that even if they did the what if the person would have still died right or they would have Still had taken that action or had their addiction or Did their relationship the way that whatever it is or the job and I eventually get them to cross out on a piece of paper the what if and write even if even if I had been there more My dad still would have died right. It's just that reality and did just be with this thing that we can't accept and I think that's so important to change the what if to even have because So many people beat themselves up for years decades over But if I only was there five minutes sooner, you know what's meant to be is Going to be if it's your time. It's your time and picture this if I was Sitting in a restaurant and I was sitting there alone and there was a couple next to me It's two people talking and one said they just had a horrible loss whatever the loss may be and the other person was like You need to get it together. You need to did all that you need to this is self-pity. I'm tired of your pity potty I'd be like excuse me She's just had a horrible loss. She needs kindness And yet the person we have this hallmarked version that in grief We're gonna be so kind to everyone into ourselves. Nope. We're brutal to ourselves after loss My mom lost her sister a year ago right and she Has taken that death of course, but so so hard and but she's so What if what if I I should have done this or I should have done this better and she seems to not be that Type of person she seems like let's just grieve but not to really question some because she's so methodical She plans everything. I'm thought I go in a great way. Everything's organized and planned So the fact that she's going back and retracing her steps and wanting wishing she did things differently It's always so interesting to me because in my eyes she's done Everything that she possibly can now here's a tip for that. Yes If someone's going I've only I had done this and what if I had done that our Tentancy out of love is to go don't talk that way you couldn't have done anything But instead to go Tell me about it play it out Let me hear it Because people get so shut down and they don't get to talk about it So Sometimes we need time to explore the what ifs and have our detective hat and be in the pain You're right because I've definitely never Let her do that not that I've been mean. I've always been like but you've done you did everything. I just try to Remind her how much she did do But I've never said you tell me about it. What would you have done differently and what would that have done? Mm-hmm. How would that have helped and here's the really important one? Well, if I had done this and saw them more been there gotten there sooner then I go with Do you think that's really true? And sometimes I'll say to someone someone to go if I'd gotten to the hospital after they fully explored it I'll say I wonder if we can always save people by getting to the hospital on time. Mm-hmm. I Wondered does that always play out that way. Right. Yes Basically having them arrive at the conclusion on their own and that's our inner wisdom we have to get to right Why don't we talk a little bit about the grief of non-death losses? Yes, because I think it's important for people To sometimes give themselves permission to go through grief. I sometimes think people think I was so trivial. It's a job or A divorce or a breakup, but I do think that it's all relative to what they're going through in their lives Absolutely and every grief Has a little nuance. I mean someone dies. You're never seeing them again. Right A divorce Wait, they can be on earth rejecting you every single day not wanting you it kind of feels like the grief that can keep giving One of the things when I talk to people who are dealing with divorce and breakups We're grieving the person who's left But we also have this distorted thinking that the person that's divorcing you or leaving you or with someone else or acting out Was your soulmate and so they have this grief of the relationship ending but also the grief of losing their soulmate And I remind them I don't believe your soulmate is the one who leaves. I think your soulmates the one who stays Right, so I think that's a challenge in the relationship once betrayal a huge grief the loss of trust the loss of security job loss the loss of pay you know, there's so many abuse the loss of self So and loss, you know these luckily those griefs we can we can bring ourselves back to life we can find ourselves again Hopefully I have a few friends that they're not out of that stage Well, and we think there's some something important some loyalty in the pain Mm-hmm, and also our old wound show up and grief like you would think when you're overwhelmed in grief Well, why on earth would my old wound show up right now? I mean, I'm overwhelmed and yet Old wounds come up our old trauma comes up in stress And grief is clearly a time of stress divorce death huge stressful times You're right May I yes ask you please about something that I saw recently and I thought about okay in your life and your experience I think about that get together You had with Lamar yes, I looked at that and go When people go she shut down I was like that's grief oh, I did shut down that but that's grief That's traumatic grief the weird start to interrupt you the weird thing is I didn't know I shut down in real time. I remember when I left and I think it was like hours later I was sort of like what just happened. I couldn't recall Exactly what was said I needed I think even like a week or two to process And almost my memory started coming back. I definitely was an autopilot. I was just there coasting But I couldn't have told you if you asked me after. So how was that talk? I would have been like, what did we talk about? I heart when I'll tell you. Thank you. Can I tell you a bit about that from just the outside and see if it fits? No, totally. First of all, you're trying to do repair work. And you're trying to do repair work with this person who was the love of your life. And everything went so badly out of your control, despite your best efforts. And here's when I looked at you and watched that. I saw the moment he was late. I thought, this is not going to be good for her. And I thought, talk about post-traumatic stress that your mind has to go into, probably as it did, lots of times with him. Exactly. He's late. What's going on? Is he okay? What happened? And so it has to go into protection mode. It had to go there. It's unconscious. That's why it's so out of body now. Right. Because you were just feeling, oh my gosh. Have I lost him again? Did he die again? This is what happened? How many days, nights and all that? Yes. Now, those are his wounds. If I was talking to him, I'd be having a different talk. Or both of you together. But this is about your reaction that I felt like got a little overjudged. And that, you know, here you are, thrown back into it. It's also a moment I thought you're really seeing clearly. You're going, oh, this isn't the person I imagine. This is who he really is. Let me really meet him. And it was really hard. And I think we don't talk about those griefs around those relationships. You must have had so much grief day and night and just as someone who's dealt with addiction and my own sundying of it. It's brutal. And there's no, there's no happy place you get to. No. And even I think even when people do recover, the person that was on that journey with you, when you were not sober, it's hard for them to recover. So just because that addict might recover, the bystander doesn't always because they have so much PTSD. And it's like you said, when I felt totally fine and I was excited to meet with Lamar. And then when he was late, instantly I sort of blacked out and I was like, okay, I'm not here. My trauma goes just coast autopilot. And I just may, I get by. And then what they showed, I think was maybe 20 or 30 minutes tops. And we were there for four and a half hours. And the first hour was not speak. He would not speak. It was just sweating tardiness. He was so uncomfortable. But then I was uncomfortable. How much of your relationship were you doing the work? Were you doing a lot of work to help him in his addiction? Yes. And here he arrives and you're doing the work again. Now my heart goes out to him. He's got a horrible disease. Yes. That is a lot for him. But when we talk about grief, going back to what I said about grief must be witnessed. Mm-hmm. Even in those moments that you said it was four months of misery. Yeah, I don't remember that. Oh, your grief's not being witnessed in that moment. Right. I mean, I wanted. And that made me very angry. Of course. Of course it did. How could it not? It made me angry. But I will say, like I stand by a lot of my responses in that meeting. But then also some I was like, why am I snapping at him right now? Some I was like, I'm because you were angry and hurt and thrown into an old situation. I mean, we all have this idea of what's today going to be like. And you expected him hopefully on time and you're reconnecting and here's your stuff. And it's so different than what you expected. Yes, it definitely was. I have so much compassion for you both, for you all out. Because it's it's too horribly wounded people trying to do repair work. And I think one of the things we miss in life sometimes. First of all, in grief, it's a time when people close to us cannot get it and feel like strangers and strangers can feel like friends and family. Right. I get that. We often want the person that hurt us to do the repair work. And it's going to be done by others. That's the openness to try to find, right? To allow that repair work to come in the next time there's a similar but different situation. And you did the best you could and so did he. And I'm like, Bravo for both of you for showing up and just trying it. Yeah, we both tried it. I was very proud of him because I'm sure that was very intimidating for him, you know, coming to my best friend's house. It was more in my comfort zone than his. And I was very proud of him, although he was late, but that's okay. Okay, hang on, which had to be a huge trigger. Oh, major. Huge trigger. Which like the moment it happened, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is going to go bad just because of the lateness. And then when I heard like 20 minutes, four to five, I'm like, oh, not going well. No. All right. One more thing here, you said, how proud you are of him. And you lit up with how proud you are of him. Can you be that proud of you? I'm proud of me. I'm proud that I got through it. And you know, your protection systems needed to kick in. And they did. That's how you had to survive. Yes. That's how you had to survive those moments. We survive. I always say we're resilient and fragile all at the same time. We are. And I don't think we give ourselves enough acknowledgement for either one of them because we are for sure. If you were to go out there again, dating wise, life wise, what stories come up in your mind? Bad. Yes. Okay. And here's why you're still trying to process them. And so you're living in that reality. And what we do is unknowingly, we take the bricks of our last relationship to try to build the next ones. And none of us want to do that. So it is about what do you think? Because I think there's some grief work there still. What do you think there is around your past relationships? Because I had so much abandonment in mind. What do you think that story is that needs to be healed? For you to just go out there as an open book. Or do you go out there next week or next year or in 10 years? But you arrive as an open book. What story is saying? Please heal me. I think for me, I need to learn to trust myself again. Because I feel like I've let myself down trust wise. And because I've made bad choices in the past, I'm afraid to make another choice and have it be the same outcome. And those choices, and I'm sorry to say this because I know some of them were really painful. Yeah. Were the right choices that you needed to go through to get to the next place. And so you want to make sure we choose people. And here's the thing we go where attracted to the wrong people or we bring the wrong people. It's like let me not choose familiar. There's something familiar about that. I got to tell you I was a attractor of people subconsciously that I knew we're going to leave. Let me tell you how did you identify that though? Oh my gosh. I learned if I went into a party and there's one charismatic person that I heard, oh my gosh, you know, tricky. I'm like, oh, I gotta go talk to them. I mean, I was going to change them. I saw their potential, all that stuff. Shockingly by doing the grief work. Okay. So you're willing to go deep for a second. Sure. All right. I don't know that this is true, but it was true for me. There is a grief around my mother that I thought needed to be repaired by other strong women. And eventually instead of doing the relationship repair work, I had to do the grief repair work. And the grief repair work was to get this and this is what was so hard. And I didn't even think I consciously was doing it in my whole life. No matter where I looked, how I looked, what they look like, how strong, how familiar they're never going to be my mother. I had to really grieve. She was the one and only in that time span. And I wonder if there's a part of you and only you know this, that like, I have to really just go so deep into this father that I deserved for the rest of my life. And to just know that I could meet a million great guys. No one's ever going to be him. What's so interesting is I've thought like is this something related to my dad, but all of their characteristics, I feel like are so different from my dad. Not bad, not good, just they're indifferent. I'm not talking about characteristics. Tell me. I'm talking about filling a hole. I could see that. Here's where it gets really crazy. Filling the hole is accepting. It's never going to be filled. It's no if this is a great comparison, but I used to say, you know, when you lose someone, it's like if you were born with all your limbs, then you lose a limb. It's not that you don't go on, you go on and you learn to adapt to life without that limb, but you always know that it's not there. It's never the same, but you, you do go on, you do survive. It's just never the same. You miss it all the time. And yes, I get that analogy so much because it's never going to be filled and no one could fill that and no one should. Right. And we often know that consciously, but it's an inner work. So how do you do that inner work? I think it just starts with this awareness. It's just that awareness of, oh gosh, I like that person. And I miss my dad all the time and I'm never going to find my dad in the world again. And let me just show up fully for this person because there's a familiarity in people that's not characteristics. That's what's so hard. And the thing is sometimes when we've lost someone through death, we seek out subconsciously people who are not predictable. So that this time they'll stay. That's really fascinating. I saw that in your eyes. Yeah. I saw that hit. It's clicking. Maybe this one will stay the way my dad should have. And of course your dad couldn't. Yeah. But none of this is logical. Right. Do you think it's irresponsible to tell your kids like I tell my kids all the time? Like I'm never going to leave you. Do you think that's irresponsible to say? Here's the thing. The moment there's been a death in the family or grandparents kids immediately go to. Mummy, are you going to die? And the answer is yes, honey. Someday I'm going to die. But I'm doing so many things to have a really long life because I want to have a long life with you and I want you to have a long life. That's why I do this and this and this. It's all so we can have so much time. It's always be honest. Yes. Okay. Because at some point they're going to make the calculation of your dad died at this age. And someday you're going to hit that age. Right. And then you're going to have to reassure them and yourself that you're going to outlive his lifetime. Right. I think that's really important for people to hear and know for me at least too, because we've had. They know that my dad has died, but he didn't die when they were alive. Right. But my daughter lost her grandma, my ex's mom when she was young, but she was. I think she was like four. So she wasn't that aware, but she'll like ask about her. She has dreams of her, but she hasn't asked me yet. When are you going to die? She just thinks I'm going to be 150 because she always tells me that. You don't need to bring it up until they ask. And kids are often the forgotten griever. So it's so good that when we have those conversations, people will say to me, oh, the goldfish died that this happened. You know, the pet died. We told them the dog ran away. I'm like, what's your plan? What's your plan to teach them about grief? And I'll say the moment grief happens in our children's life. And when dies, that's the moment to teach them. And I think the hardest thing is to be honest. Right. No one wants to be honest with kids. We want them to be happy. Will you talk a little bit about your website? Sure. Yes. I know that's so important for people. Well, thanks. The website is grief.com and on it, there's so many resources there for people to get. There's groups. There's videos you can watch. I'm also trying to post things on social media. It's I am David Kessler. David Kessler was already taken. So I had to be I am David Kessler. And just to give people resources to talk about these things, I, I love that I do the books. I have one on the afterlife that I mentioned to you before. There's also just ones about finding meaning and getting through the pain and shizzling through that. And just to know there's help out there for everyone. There's help. So grief.com. Grief.com. And I think it's so important for people. A lot of people feel so much shame in their grief. And I think for them to know that they have that outlet and just here also your voice and how compassionate and empathetic you are for everybody and all their stages. And you really are the master at, you know, helping people find their way. And I know I'm so grateful. And I know I've taken more of your time than I should have. And let me just tell you here's the thing that I think is surprisingly about what you just said is when people think like about grief groups. I do they think, Oh, is it six people on chairs online? It's hundreds and hundreds. And the thing that people don't realize is it helps so much with the loneliness. And we find ourselves in each other's stories. Some people talk up front, but some people in tender hearts are just in the background listening. And we grow and learn. And thank you again for doing this. I want to leave you with one small thing that I hope will encourage people. What we run from pursues us and what we face transforms us.