Greg Scarpa Jr. Interview ~ Part 2

(upbeat music) ♪ Later days, later days ♪ ♪ Later days, later ♪ - Hi everyone, welcome to Later Days, I'm Joe Paletto. Gregory Scarpa Jr. was the son of the notorious hitman, Gregory Scarpa. Greg Scarpa Jr. succeeded his father as Capo in the Colombo family after his father contracted HIV/AIDS, following a contaminated blood transfusion in 1986. Scarpa Jr. was sentenced to 40 years in prison for racketeering, and he was recently granted a compassionate release after serving 33 years. Joining us today is Larry Mazza, who was also a member of the Colombo family, and who was a key member of the Scarpa family crew. - I was really interested to know the first time you guys met each other, and Greg Jr. being, obviously, Greg, senior's son, and then you entering the picture as ultimately Greg, senior's protege, I'm interested to know, and what was your reaction to Larry first time meeting and Larry, what was your reaction to Greg, senior's son? - Well, I already had respect for the father. I was trying to be like him, and so when I now met the son who was in the life, I was very in awe of Greg Jr. He was special. It was an honor to meet him because it was Greg's son. - Showed me so much respect. I mean, he was, you know, he was like, you know. - I already was learning the way. I was learning from, I mean, the consummate wise guy, I only said it, and I knew it was special to be his son, so, and I always came on to be almost another son. But yeah, absolutely was very impressed with Greg Jr. - And that never bothered you, Greg, just in terms of, you were never protective of being Greg, senior's only son. Now you've got this young upstart in the picture. I mean, did you embrace that? Did it bother you? - It didn't bother me at all because I liked him a lot. He reminded me of a guy that could take care of himself. That's what I was into, and my father would tell me that he knows all that he's very good with his feet, his legs, I mean, martial arts, martial arts, and all that kind of stuff as well, you know, could always hang out with him and, you know, whatever. You know what I mean, go out somewhere with him and, you know, we're between the both of us. I know, I know, I fight and him. I said, you know, we got no problems at all. You know what I'm saying? No, it didn't bother me at all, no matter at all. - What was the first sign that happened? You both are good fighters, not to kind of get into the more predictable story about a hit or a fight. I'm sure there was a time where, okay, you think you can count on each other, but there was a moment when you really had a county judge. - Yeah, we were always at each other's backs. If it was at a bar somewhere, it's hard to zero in on one of particular ones, but there was a time these. - You're good given the weight lift that it is. - Yeah, that would not tell, but there was time before where a guy came in and he was supposed to take his machines out of the club and he didn't do it. Right, I would look a guy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So he sends. - We're type of machines. - Joker poke is slot machines. You won't allow it to take him from anybody, but Greg had to rent him from us. - Right, they would take him from us and we'd get half the money whatever. So the father comes and he gets chased out and then by Greg seeing it. Instead of taking it as a beat, you don't come back. He sends his two sons back in. So, as soon as we see them come in, I saw Gregory jump up and I knew, I know the motions. I know he's old man when he does the certain thing and I knew Greg didn't like that these two came in. So I followed him and the one guy goes to open his mouth and Gregory gives him a shot, he goes right down. And then I remember Gregory hearing that right behind him 'cause I hit the guy behind him and he went down. So, and really the thing is, they knew the strength we had. So it wasn't often a fair fight to be honest, but we were gonna take care of business for way the other. - Well, probably it was an often that you were challenged either by just somebody out the street. - Right. - Yeah. - But the wait lift, I gotta tell him that one. They were two. It was actually two. There was the one that's scapping an injured miss car back. And scapping us to go talk to this guy. Wings of being, they called him Big George. He took six shots and survived six bones to the stomach. - And he added on his window where he had a gym. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So it was on the window, I took six shots. - Some like that. - Yeah, George took six. - Yeah. - That one was on the window. - George took six. - That's really good. - Yeah, I don't know. - So anyway, that was a challenge 'cause this guy, we had a really good work to put him out of commission. I gotta tell you the truth. After five minutes of Pitman, he still was able to get up. - We had broken bones. - Right. - He got up, we did damage. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But the one Gregory's talking about, the guy abused one of our men in a nightclub. He had them out and our friend Joey went there with two girls and he let the two girls in. He wasn't gonna let Joe in the nightclub. So it got off to a dead start. Anyway, the two bounces cracking around. They got the jump on him. Joey wasn't a slouch, but he had no shot. So anyway, when his father finds out the next day, it's on top of the list. We're gonna get this guy. So it's the middle of the winter, it's snowing. And I'm in the car with Greg Jr. And there's a van, okay. So we spot the guy and he's Mr. New York. That's how big he is. He won a competition. The biggest guy in New York. So we both have baseball bats. I'll never forget this. - Yeah. - We're walking towards him. And this is early on for us too. And this was like the first one of the first things your old man sent me with you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're walking towards the guy and I look at Gregory. I say, you believe we got a baseball practice in this weather. It was snow and ice. So the guys looking at us like we're not. So I swing the bat at him. My bat breaks on his head. Gregory's got a bat. He swings it and his brakes. We look at each other for a second. The guy starts running. Gregory runs after jumps, tackles them, get some down. And he was running towards the van. - Yeah. - All guys jumped out of the van and this guy repumbled. - Yeah. - So you guys with the Winfrey Boys Club. Greg Senior was in charge and he would hold court. Was there like a, you meet up at some point and then you go down to, okay, we got to do this. We got to do that. We got to beat the shit out of this guy. We got to collect this. Is that how the day went? Or was it more spontaneous? - That was watching a while. - Yeah, that wasn't all the time. The day we go, we're playing cards with one another. We'd be talking sports, you know, and Larry was all years listening to how the sports work. I was into it a little bit, but he became so good at it that we left it to Larry to take care of the numbers and everything. He knew exactly, you know, the sports, you know, the odds and all that, that he figured it out good. And, you know, we left him and he took over the business. - Yeah, and we collected money a little bit. - Yeah, really from customers, they'd be coming in dropping off, whether it was big payments or like a low-end shopping, you know, and stuff like that. - And sports monies and, but it was just so, and a lot of times they'd be talk about scores that would be, you know, we're doing credit cards, different scandals, every day there was something to talk about, but the basic stuff was the shy-locking. And like Gregory said, we played a lot of cards. - Yeah, yeah. - It was, you know what? It was a camaraderie, yeah. It really was. You looked forward to going and meeting. You never got it over each other. You're like, I'd come and I'd walk into the club and Gregory'd come over to me like he'd have seen me in a month. - Yeah. - My man, that was stuff like that. We still do it, you know? - Absolutely. - I mean, you know, I know that you guys are gonna cover a lot of ground about the early days through, you know, the relationship and the different events and the personalities and the interaction with the different characters in this call of a story 'cause it is at this point. - Yeah. - So your impressions and observations of meeting each other kind of fast forward to the end. I mean, no one knew maybe you had an inkling that Greg Senior was, you know, working the other side of the aisle. What was that conversation or did you guys have that conversation? You couldn't believe it, right? Larry, you've told me this story that when you first found out, were you able to have a conversation with Greg Junior or was he already in jail and it was much later? It was several years after, but when we were able to contact and talk on the phone, I remember Gregory's exact words to me. Larry, he had us all fooled. That was the first thing he said to me. And I knew from there we were on the same wavelength, you know? So yeah, it was, our hearts were taken out. - And he kept this secret. The only person he told was this Linda. He trusted her. He told her, she knew all about it. She didn't tell nobody. You know, he was right there in a new-- - Well, yeah, he knew how to connect with the Tudor. - Right. - Like a man, right? And he got it done. I mean, he did, you know, he was like, to me, you know, after thinking about it, an evil genius. - That's exactly how you described them on the show. - Yeah, because, you know, you just had everything. And that's why I really believe in karma, you know, that he ended up what he got that age is because that a man upstairs, that this guy thought he was God. I mean, he had the FBI top supervisor. He was a top echelon informer, okay? So he knew everything, okay? He'd get all kinds of information. And on the other hand, he was a respected fear mob guy, okay? So, you know, he had whatever he wanted to do, he did. And, you know, and he felt like he was, and the guy upstairs, and this guy thinks he's God. - That's how I feel. You know, the guy upstairs, and this guy thinks he's God. I'm gonna have to show him, and he ended up getting the age. I think you know how he got the age. - Yeah, you know, Joe, let me say this, we, the closest thing you could say is, we wondered how certain things were possible, right? But we never think he was, never, you couldn't, because he was the most efficient killer in the family. - Yeah. - You know, they came to him for the hard ones. They came to him for the ones nobody else would do, you know? So, and you know, we're thinking, yeah, I would never condone that. They can't let a guy be a killer, and be out there like that. So, no, there was no way we knew, but in hindsight, now all these little things we saw, right? You mentioned five to six, and I have five to six things. And now it adds up, that's why, you know, when you could carry a body out, or a daylight, from your club, and not worry, I mean, that's beyond. - Yeah. - That was the same thing with my first case. He used to talk in there about the pot, you know, who gets this much, and I used to tell him, I'd talk in here. I used to make him old times like I wasn't going to talk to him. - Yeah, you were, you know, and I used to go outside. - Makes you feel like there was nothing on tape with me, right? You know, but it was all on him. And they didn't let me have those tapes on my case. - Amazing. - On the mountain. - Yeah, I believe, they protected him. - It started, I guess, as the story or the legend goes with this whole, the civil rights workers down in Mississippi. Did he ever talk about that, Greg? Did he ever tell you that story? Or was that something that, - Not when, you know, I was a young youngster at that time, you know, and he never really said anything other than, you know, that he had to go someplace. He went to Costa Rica. I had to go do business over there. He, but he never, never said exactly what he was doing. And, I don't think it's mob stuff, you know, that he was doing. But, nobody knew nothing, you know? - And he was so close to the vest that when he returned, there was just no expression on his face. - Nothing. - Nothing, it was just nothing. He was amazing. He had just a straight face, did what he had to do. And, you know, whatever made him comfortable, that's what it was. He always, he was interested in his getting paid money and that was it. He didn't care who, who he had to hurt to do it, you know? - Including you and the family. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I mean, I know the FBI's reached out to, I mean, Larry, a few times. - Yeah. - There's still a ton of money missing, isn't there? - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's for sure. - 'Cause he only dealt in cash, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And finally, make believe credit cards. Only dealt in cash, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. Well, I told you, my guess is his FBI partner has some answers. - There you go. That's exactly what I used all the time. I mean, I think that this guy has the key to where the money was and that's why he just stayed so. He took the fifth on my case. I mean, you know, I'm supposed to win my case when an FBI, we call the FBI for some answers and he gets up on the stand and he takes the fifth. You know, I'm supposed to win my case, yeah. And they still, they still dealt with him. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Well, that was because they wanted you out of the way or they were protecting your dad or they were embarrassed about their relationship with your dad or like any of those things, I guess. - At that time, it was more or less, you know, it looked like, you know, I told my father, you know, I was telling him, I really couldn't believe it. I was telling him that my father came to visit me when I was in the cab on the call of the county, but it's a federal, I'm CC, I'm CC, okay. And he comes to visit me. - That's in New York and Manhattan? - Yes, yeah. - Manhattan correctional, right? - That's right, yeah. - So what happens, he comes to visit me and you know, I'm amazed that I got arrested and he didn't, okay, but he, you know, he was the main guy. He had, you know, he was doing, he was doing all the string and, you know, the money goes here, money goes here, give me this, give me, you know, talking about it. This is how I want it done, you know. So anyway, I tell him, I said, that, I said, you know, I can't believe. I said, they didn't pinch you, I'm happy about it, you know. I said, I can't believe they didn't pinch you. So he goes, pinch me. He says, what do I have to do, you know, I didn't have nothing to do with anything. Me, me sick, you know, because you sound like you didn't trust me, you know. - You're like you were wired, right? - Yeah, you know, me, you, you want to, you know, I thought that because he knows what he's been doing. - Right. - And that's what happens to people that are doing something, you know what I mean, they start, you know what I mean? He said that, I got so hurt. You're less than, you're less now, you're like, wow. They can't say all that I did for him and how much love I had for him and do anything for him. He says, what I have to do with anything. He still makes me the one that I want. - And then all the way to the end, when he does deathbed confessions to save people, he, you know, he left as his closest people out. - His son, yeah. - Me and Jimmy, you know. - Who were the deathbed confessions that he came for her to have? - He stayed dally boy. - Out in New York. - He personally goes son. - Yeah. - But yeah, I could tell Larry why he saved his, him, okay? - Why? - Because what he did, he reached out to Linda, okay? Their worries now was, Linda gonna be okay. Money wise and all that, like he, you know, he's got his money somewhere that nobody could get, okay? - All right. - But anyway, Ali boy, now reaches out to Linda, says, listen, I want you to go to Greg and tell him that we got your back, whatever you need, whatever you know, he has nothing to worry about, but we need him to write this deathbed confession. He did, he wrote it all out and boom, boom. And the guy Ali, that he did that for, he walked. He went for it, you know. That he screwed them anyway, didn't get no money. And, yeah, and what I did was I sent word to my father through my brother that, hey, dad, you could help me over here, you know. Say, he says, I, you know, I can't say, you know, it's not that easy, he tells my brother to tell him, and then he ended up saying some other things to my brother that I was like, whoa, you know what I'm saying? Because now, why I asked him for help, it was, you know, where to smoke this fire, it was coming out in the newspaper, and everybody was talking about what he did. So I was saying, me, dad, you could help me, yeah. Do you remember the last conversation that you had with your dad? - Last conversation. It wasn't when we came to level Mark. - Probably when we were all at the phone call. - The phone call, you know, like he, you know, he had an license when these guys were throwing the war and killing people, okay. He would call me up, and he would say, Greg, listen, I got a couple of more gifts for the kids. So I know what he's talking about, he's really worth gifts. He's talking about a couple of bodies, you know what I'm saying? So I knew that the next day I looked in the newspaper sure enough, this guy got killed, and this guy got killed. Both of them were in the same time in the car. That was a manorver in the other guy. Yeah, yeah, you know. - Well, I know Larry and you have had a lot of, you know, personal experiences, but now kind of fast forward, you know, the conversations that you've been having over the last, you know, few days. So thank you for all of that, and you'd be well. - My pleasure. - Thank you for listening. Later days is an Astrolite production, produced by Joe Paletto and Karl Durfleur, engineered by Karl Durfleur, production director, David Gross, production managers, Michelle Garimoni, and Kelsey Kurpic. For more information, please visit astrolite.com. 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