Greatest Hits - Meta, Apple, XR Trends, the Future of Spatial Computing, and Creator Evolution with Cathy Hackl, Lee Kebler and Jeff Barrett

[MUSIC] Hello everyone and welcome to Tech Magic, the podcast where we talk about technology innovation and everything happening in the tech space. I am your co-host Kathy Hackel and I'm joined as always by my co-host Lee Kebler. Lee, what's up? >> My goodness, I'm so exhausted by technology news of 2025. So much so that I think DeepThink might be as well but we'll get to that. >> Okay, you remember three months ago we actually had an episode where like, you know, not a lot of technology news came out and we kind of like had a hard time scraping together like a list of news stories that episode and it is just like be careful what you wish for. >> Oh my gosh, I know. >> And I spent the weekend doing my other thing which was like in a recording studio, recording this jazz project that I'm working on. And so like I missed a lot and then I tried to catch up today and it was just fire hose and how are you doing? >> Cool, try to keep up. Try to keep up. Yeah, it's been a lot. It's been a lot in tech news and oh my gosh, I mean I will say I was able to publish an article that I've been working on for a very long time that you had seen before. >> Yes. >> The first time I ever worked on this article was in 2021. Like that's a long time. >> That's a long time. >> It's a long time. >> It's a long time. It's not that it took me that long. It's just I started putting my thoughts down in 2021 and I finally published it today. After everything that's happening with AI, metaverse, XR, like everything's happening. I thought this is the perfect moment to write it. And the premise for it as you know is really American XR. The concept that the US leads in XR in spatial technology and we should strive to keep it that way. I feel like we should double down on where we lead, not try to play catch up and understand specifically that where some of these models are going to eventually go is into new architectures and new models that will need real world data that is updateable in real time. And that is going to come in the form of some type of spatial in XR hardware. So I'm going to article about competitiveness in AI and XR and really think your longer term about how I think the US specifically should look at investments in that future of technology. And if you like we're in this moment of just catch up and trying to catch up, trying to catch up and we're thinking only in large language models. I'm trying to get people to think a little bit further out and really think about where does the United States currently lead. And I totally believe it is in that spatial computing XR software hardware world where we have me and we truly lead. So I'm very excited. I published it. Getting great feedback on LinkedIn, great comments. Most people really, really supportive of the article and truly see the moment, right? It's an opportunity you haven't posted about it. Like what was your reaction when you read it? Well, I mean, it's it is one of those things where there's a lot of questions what's happening in technology, especially today and a lot of confusion. And it boils down to yes AI is a major part that we have to consider. The technology itself is a major part we have to consider. But what I said was when the industry zigs you kind of have to zag. And so while all of these areas are getting thought for, there's a hardware play that's completely missing. And that's the zag to everything that's currently happening right now. It's like, okay, this is all great. But where does the experience live? Where do the eyes go? What is the hardware move? No, I will be very blunt and honest and say there's questions about that that we don't have answers to. If you know, I'm going to go back in time a little bit. Part of how I got started in this industry was actually at the beginning. Yeah. We've always sworn out to be political. This is not a political statement. But when I got into the VR space professionally, it was because of tariffs. I went after yeah, I went in the first Trump administration very early on, the dude likes tariffs. And so he put tariffs on American and steel for American steel. Yeah. And when that happened, that meant a lot of steel manufacturing couldn't prototype and steal anymore because it was no longer cost effective. And that was where I found a really good footing for virtual reality. Politics of side, it was this approach to like, how do you prototype using VR hardware when you can no longer afford to waste the natural materials? History repeats itself and we're right back. They are right. Right. And so as we're looking at new tariffs that can affect everything from lumber to other billing materials to, you know, semiconductors and. And walker mule. But yeah. All of this is now up for conversation. There is this conversation that's not currently happening that this article proves and that is where do you Zach? Where do these technologies actually start providing a solution because we can no longer do X, Y or Z. Back in the first administration, it was because of steel couldn't prototype anymore. There are new hurdles that need to be overcome now. Where do we find those solutions? And that is something that by and large, America's always been really good at. And when I say America, I mean people like myself who build things and garages, not people who run massive mega corporations with billions of dollars because they're having a hard time right now. But for those who are still like tinkering in the garage going, Oh, I think I have an idea like this is a really unique opportunity not only to go forward with it, but to like experiment with new hardware. And hopefully per your suggestion and your article, those big companies that are scrambling right now can take a step back and say, wait, there is a hardware plane. We have the means to do that. Because that's not something that people like myself can do. So we'll see, but that's a very long wooded way. Yeah. It's been it's been really interesting to see the feedback. It's almost kind of started to go viral a little bit on LinkedIn. I'm trying to see people comment on it. I will say, for me, it's about the competitive advantage the United States has already and doubling down on that if we know the future is going to be, you know, wherever owns a hardware is going to own the vehicle and that own the data necessarily, but have access to the data and will own the containers, right, that will have that AI in the physical world. So I think that's really interesting. And I also think there's still a mode. I feel like with large language models, the modes, there's no modes. Like the mode is so tiny. Like, I mean, if you're building on a GPT wrapper, like, what are the modes here? And I feel like when it comes to certain technology, there's still a mode that is very clear because it's still really hard to create and work on where you can still have that competitive advantage. And in competition, that is so important because it does make things better. Let me explain. Chat GPT last episode, we talked about, oh my gosh, deep seat came out of nowhere and blew the doors off of the AI industry. And that's true. It really did. And since then, everyone then regathered, re-huddled and kind of went through there or what the heck do we do moment exponentially. Chat GPT is better today than it was a week ago when we recorded our podcast. And that is not because they've been secretly working behind the scenes on this stuff. They were forced to find better solutions. And those better solutions were resting in open source technology because deep seat was open source. We all know that they gathered in their war rooms. I sacked it and said, what the heck do we do? Today, because I was recording all weekend and wasn't focused on news, I had to set down being Monday and go, okay, what news stories are there? So I first went to deep seat. I did not first go to Chat GPT. I first went to deep seat. And the reason I went to deep seat was because it has not only the reasoning functionality, but it has the ability to search. So I started going through trying to say, hey, compile information about these things, nothing older than the last five days. Because I knew what had happened five days ago. And it gave me a bunch of really crazy interesting stories. I said, oh, wow, I didn't know any of this stuff happened. Please provide links. And I said, oh, I can't as these are all fictional. It's like fiction. Yeah, yeah, it's all fake. It's all fascinating. These are all high. It's amazing. All these techniques. Yes, this is where it gets creepy. This is all hypothetical to what could happen by, because I said between January, last five days of like January, whatever, to February, third. And I said, of 2025. And I said, this is hypothetical of what could happen by the year 2025. And I was like, wait, what do you back up deep seat? What year do you think it is? This is what I ask it. And it goes October 2023. Don't don't don't. I said, wait a second, October 2023. And then I asked, was the president of the United States? And goes, well, as of October of 2023, our current president is Joe Biden. And then I realized it's got a blockade up. It is in-cate currently. This could be a bug. This could be for recording on Monday. For recording on Monday, February, third. I mean, I mean, change. But as of Monday, February, third at 317 PM West Coast time, deep seek, and not see past October of 2023. And it's search results. I don't know why. So then I go, well, let's see what I can do, which at GPT. And I go back in all of a sudden, there's a magical search button that was I swear that wasn't there yesterday or the day before last time I looked at chat GPT. They didn't just launch it. They didn't just launch that campaign. I missed it. I was in a recording studio. Yeah, they're launching. I mean, they did operate or last week. And then this week they did the research like the one that does a lot of research. Yeah. Or yeah, that works. It works really well. Is it better than for electricity? Because I tend to like, really heavily into perplexity for my research. Yes. Okay. Because I knew, I mean, I get all the same Google pings and I have the same reddit account and like everything else that I get my news through that I filter and I like look for stuff all two week. It actually listed in news article that broke 33 minutes ago. That's really good. That and it for those who've been following this, AI's never been able to get data. that recent and then bring it into a logic based system and provide it in a way that I can do something with it. So it was so strange that when I saw this particular article that I thought to myself, this is a hallucination, this didn't happen. So I went and Googled it and was like, oh, this is very, this is very accurate. You can probably went to that person's LinkedIn. Yeah, it was, I really do this. Interesting. It was wild how accurate it was. So I grew up in Florida. In Florida, man. In Florida, a Greyhound racing up until like recently, it was really big. And I never understood the interest or obsession that people had with Greyhound racing. And I really get it now because I feel like I'm like watching your Greyhound race between deep-sweet perplexity and chat GPT and they're all chasing this like robotic rabbit. And I'm just sitting there with my ticket shaking in the air. I'm eating the popcorn. I'm just literally eating the popcorn. I'm like, okay, let's see what happens. It is crazy how fast this changed in the matter of a week. Yeah, it's in that article in question because we are going to cover it. It actually has to do with meta. Let's talk about this because they had earnings call last week. Do we really want me meta is blowing past expectations from a shareholder perspective? That keeps growing regardless of any opinion you might have about some of their changes when it comes to fact checking and stuff. But as a company, shareholders should feel pretty happy, I would say. During the call, during the earnings call, they did have some really interesting things they mentioned. I think it was during the earnings call that he mentioned. Zuckerberg mentioned that it's going to be a make or break year for the metaverse. I'm not sure if it was in the earnings call. It was like their all hands or whatever. But it was in one of those two where he mentioned the metaverse being a 2020 this year. It came actually from my understanding it came from Andrew Bosworth. Oh, it was OK. It was Bosworth said it. Start. Yeah. It was started in a leak memo and then they had to like say the quiet part out loud. And then it's the yeah, because I remember it was like 2025 is a make or break year for the metaverse and that there's going to be improvements to horizon and these sorts of things. They talked about the Rayban meta AI glasses selling I think over a million units. I think that's the number that's been pushed around. It's just crazy impressive. I mean, great, great. Really is. So that was part of it. They talked about how much money reality allows was making how much it was losing. I mean, expectations for it. Those sorts of things. Yeah. He quite literally said that they either have to prove the metaverse this year or it will be considered and to quote a legendary misadventure. So we shall see. And I think a big part of my question mark on that statement is what are you considering the metaverse? The metaverse to them, right? Because if it's just horizon. No. If that's what they're talking about, then yeah, I think it actually might be a legendary misadventure. That software platform is struggling to take. But if it is the grander experience that they have a pretty strong industry hold, then they're doing very well. So it really is kind of parsing words here to be like what? What do you mean? I feel that it, first of all, if a meta changed their name, right? That's a huge investment. You can't let it necessarily fail. It's true. I think if you move away from just thinking this is a 3D virtual space in a virtual, just in a single virtual headset. And you move into thinking about virtual shared experiences that happen both, yes, in virtual spaces, but will also happen in the physical world and that expansion of computing into the physical world through spatial computing, through spatial computers. They use the spatial intelligence for world models. That's for me. And I've always said this. You've heard me say this in every stage. For me, the holy grail of the universe is when you can actually access the virtual layer in front of you in the physical world and have that full convergence of physical and digital. That is where my perspective meta has a huge advantage with, yeah, what they're doing with our AI glasses and what heads up displays and the things they're going to bring, but also Orion Orion to me, it was a bit same all of where they're going with this. Yeah, they do need to continue pushing on where Orion goes. I actually have a different perspective than you. We've always talked about it. So my perspective is, yeah, yeah. It's where your account system, like across multiple applications within these virtual environments can coexist, right, and share amongst themselves. So the ability to go from one environment to the next seamlessly is to me where that like metaverse tipping point. This is what I've always kind of like question marked horizon about because horizon being. That's a close metaverse. It's a close metaverse and therefore is it a metaverse? Well, yeah, but then to me, it's like, I feel like there's going to be world gardens and there's going to be open metaverse as well. I think we're going to go and flow in between. Sometimes there will be a need to be in a close world garden because of the X, Y or Z, right? But I do agree with you. I think a part of that metaverse is that concept of going seamlessly between one and the other, whether it's federated or whether it is some type of decentralized way to go in between each other, that to me is part of it. But to me, the Holy Grail doesn't really come until computing those and expanding to the physical world. And then we're able to see that virtual layer and that will happen to some type of wearables and type of device. And I intentionally did not include the word metaverse in the article because I didn't want that to be something that would people would and the Forbes article I wrote because I didn't want people to kind of like muddy the waters. Yeah. Well, and I do think that I might be a little bit, maybe it's my own sugar in here, but I do think that meta is focusing on this particular topic, more so on horizon because of their leadership moves. The article that we were talking about that like broke recently was their hiring of a TikTok executive. And that whole concept is to lead the relationships and development of like metaverse creators and developers and really try to like boost horizon worlds up quite a bit. And that's breaking as of Monday. Yeah. You know, it'll be probably everyone else will know. Yeah, the articles from business insiders as meta hires a former TikTok exec to build relationships with metaverse developers and creators. They should have hired me, but that's okay. I think you have bigger fish the fried than horizon world. Like, let me just be I'm just going to say it like I've got a lot of big fish to fry right now, I'll be honest. Horizon world is a tough project to energize right now. Yeah, it's just this. It's not that it's impossible. And I believe in the concept, but structurally, it's really hard to get developers interested in it when you have things like Roblox and Fortnite and even VR chat to a very large wide extent. This goes back to competition reads creativity and necessity. And those pieces of competition, they yet to kind of like been able to reach that type of general interest and that's got to be their target. Not saying it's impossible, but it is an uphill battle. Well, that's what I think if they hire people that are actually creators. I mean, I think they can create that connection between the creators are in these spaces because they know what the challenges are. Right? Yeah, that's difficult. Okay, so I swear this isn't a pivot. Apple TV has done what I begged for the last three years. And mythic quest is back. Oh my god, that's show ever. Well, no severance to it. But anyway, mythic quest is back in their first episode is legit about how do you hire creators for these type of like metaverse like platform. Oh my gosh. So that's as much as I want to say is like if you want to understand that argument, go have a laugh and watch episode one season three of mythic quest and just drop fantastic. Oh my gosh. I love that I love severance by the way to that's my mouth. All right. So we do wish shadi na'yer. I think that's who you pronounce the person's name. A lot of luck in that new role. We're here with love to interview that person. But yeah, I have the article one of the articles I'm mentioning is from XR today says meta invest 100 billion into augmented reality smart glasses virtual reality. It says mixed reality quest metaverse portfolio. I mean, they're going to continue reality labs. Yeah, there might be some corrections. They might need to do the pending on sales, but I'm bullish. I think they're being the whole road back as I understand is launching some type of AR AI glasses with Oakley for athletes. I think that's brilliant. For better or for worse meta from a hardware perspective when it comes to the VR are playing field their king and they really as of today they don't have a lot of functional competition. They're not competing with Apple vision pro apples trying to figure out what to do about Apple vision pro we have a story about that coming up. They're absolutely not going to be competing with pico anytime soon because bite dances now distract everything else pico pico however you pronounce it it like that's not hitting the US market. So as it comes to the western market meta owns it right now and there is very little competition nipping at their heels and good on them for still even without having that competition they're still making very progressive hardware. Their hardware progression has been fantastic. Their pricing has been incredibly aggressive. So all of that tells me like they got to keep pushing with the hardware play on this and they're talking about in I have been incredibly vocal about this maybe they get it right this time they are looking at a quest pro two that's not the actual name but something that is more pro consumer so unless Samsung and Google's partnership which could come flying out of left field in swoop up a good user base they're going to be sitting comfortably for 2025 probably 2026 on just their hardware play. But and OK I'll talk about some competition coming down the line right but I will say at least when it comes to meta the Super Bowl which is coming up you know the episode drops on Wednesday Super Bowl is on Sunday there's several commercials that you'll see around the AI glasses the Raven AI. glasses that they have that include a Chris Pratt, Chris Hemsworth and Chris Denner as well. So a lot of Chris' glasses. All the Chris' glasses. There's a lot of us to go make some commercial. Here's the Z.I. glasses. So I think that'll be really interesting. I think we'll see a lot of that, a spike in interest, when it comes to these devices. Right? So very excited to look at that. I would also say, which I think is interesting related to the Super Bowl. I mean, obviously I'm based in Washington, DC. So I wish the commanders were playing, but the Eagles were there. That's what it is. Daniels, he's in rookie quarterbacks, star quarterback of the commanders. He actually has been training in virtual reality for years. Ever since he was in Louisiana, I think it was LSU. He's been training in virtual reality. That has really made him one of the stars. But he actually uses a VR headset that operates at 1.75 times the normal speed. Right. And that has made him move more than 20 times faster in VR. So he does the place in VR and he has gotten a lot faster. I think his game has gone to the next level, thanks to virtual reality. As I believe when he did the contract with the commanders, VR training was part of his contract. Yeah. It's too him. It was so important. So that link between immersive training sports, whether it's AR, we're used to augmenting reality to seeing the lines when we're watching the Super Bowl or any football game. Yeah. Right? Or even any sports really. We're used to seeing those lines that are not there when you're in the actual physical world. Right. So looking at VR and the training that is happening in these spaces and how it's making better players. So very relevant. Oh, yeah. The VR training aspect, which has been a conversation all going back to the dawn of virtual reality in the 90s. Really? I mean, VR training kind of was its birthplace in NASA to kind of start off on how do you, it's a simulation device. It always been a simulation device. So to see it finally adapt and be used in these areas is a big deal. My bigger question is, it's like, okay, you're going to start cozying up to do it. You're doing advertisement for the NFL and for the Super Bowl. The big elephant in the room is great. When can you watch the Super Bowl in VR? Where? Yeah. Yeah. And this goes back to it. And I'm speaking from experience here because of my work with the Olympics in VR. It goes back to when do the rights holding broadcasters start saying, you know, what we have an opportunity to find another broadcasting platform because VR from a hardware perspective has been trying to bring sports more relatively into the VR space and has had some success doing it. The Olympics being one of them, a lot of football for my European and other global friends has had a good play into the VR space. But I think that especially when you start talking to people who are on the more prosumer or Apple vision pro side of things that are utilizing their headset for media consumption. Yeah. When do we get that footage back in? And the answer is is almost all of these stadiums are already wired for it because they've been experimenting with it for a decade. It really boils down to who's going to be the first to secure broadcasting rights and actually turn the switch to get it into the headsets. Let's see what happens. I mean, maybe Super Bowl 2026. Maybe. Well, I have to see. Well, I have to see. I'll have to see. But I'm very excited to see that. I think from a competition standpoint because I do want to bring this up. Yeah. I think men don't have competition, but competition's coming. It's on the heels. Yeah. I feel that Google's acquisition and some of HTC vibes engineer team is a big signal. Right. Of competitions coming. I mean, people are going to start doubling down on new hardware, on new devices. Even open AI has, I think they were partnering with Johnny I have to create some type of hardware. They're looking at the hardware play, right? So there will be competition, whether it's only glasses, I'm not sure. I think we're going to see different things. But yeah. I mean, and that competition is going to sway based on it goes back to like my earlier conversation about tariffs. If the somebody tariffs do go through, then all of a sudden chip manufacturing has a lot of questions that has to fix. And if it can't fix it, then hardware is either going to get more expensive or production has to shift. Those are just the realities. And I don't know what the market can bear from a hardware cost perspective. And that is a big part because meta has undercut the cost of VR headsets and wearable headsets so diligently. I mean, really, you and I were talking about it. Even the meta gray bands are not that much more expensive than just ray bands. There's a regular ray band. Yeah. So there's some type of market cut here happening or deal struck here. So they know there's been a significant amount of study put in place of what the market will financially bear. And they're hitting that target very well. And it could really shift in major directions just with tiny little increases in technology cost. I think Oakley in sports. I mean, if you partner with the right people and you hit that market where it should be, I don't know. It's very powerful. I've only studied to see kind of what happens in that sense. Even when I was in the middle east and Dubai, there were the conversations and the talks that they're going to start selling the meta ray bands on glasses there as well. Right. So they're going to be, I mean, that's a pretty huge luxury market. I think that's exciting. I'm actually heading back to the Middle East on Friday. I'm going to re-ad for Leap, which is their big tech event. I'm speaking at Leap and then DeepFest. And I'm doing a talk. One of the talks is on the multi-modal metropolis. So moving from just smart connected cities to truly cities that are alive, then with AI and data and everything kind of comes together. So really looking forward to that and then doing a talk on all the new trends that are coming. And this is funny. One of the talks is inspired by the moniker that was given to me recently, which you and I have talked about, which I'm like, whatever, you know, if people want to give me names, I'll take them. The CEO of Napster, my friend John B during CES called me the Godmother of the Future. I mean, that's pretty lofty. But hey, I'll take it. And then when I was in Dubai, there was also like the Godmother of the Future. So I'm one of the Godmother of the Future. I'm not the only one. Does the Dwight inherit like cohost of the future? Is that the future? Do I get that? Like, curators of the future. I think curators of the news of the future. So yes, to run with it Lee. But yeah, like I'm really doubling down on that on expanding beyond just like being seen as a meta-verse person to like, no, I do work across so many articles. I have my fingers in so many pies that people don't even realize. So yeah, like, I mean, that's kind of how you and I started working together. Was it you would put together an AR focused event in New York back in 2016? Makes reality marketing summit. That's the long time. And it was fantastic. It was really like it was the conversation no one was having that time. Even down to, I mean, I was having conversations. This is not a dig at AWE. I love you guys. Yeah. But we were having conversations because I think it was a smaller, more curated summit of people. We were having highly curated, yes, curated, smaller in size. And then one thing that I focused on Lee and one of the reasons that you came to that and I asked you to speak was because I was trying to find such like I didn't want the usual suspects. I wanted people for so many different verticals so that the conversation was valuable. Not just everyone speaking about the same thing, but how do we have all these different perspectives on at that point was mixed reality was the term that was being used, right? So yeah, I mean, it was a great event. I wish I could bring it back. I mean, if anyone's listening and wants to like help me sponsor and bring it back, bring it back, let help you bring it back. It was a fantastic event. And I'll always remember the last question that was asked me on my panel was, I don't know if it was you who asked it or if it was a different, I think you asked it. Maybe. Yeah. And you said, so who do you think is the next big company? And I was building my own projects at the time. And I said, I'd love to tell you that it's my project, but chances are it won't work because so many projects, it just doesn't work like that. But the truth was, I don't think that that company exists today because it was like in the next 10 years, who do you think is the next big company? So I don't think that company exists today. And we're kicking off this show 10 years later talking about companies that literally did not exist. It's not exist. Yeah. And so I guess I was right. You were right. You were right. I should have met you in the video. I'm going to have the receipts. You should play the audio next time. I just didn't think it was like whatever the next big true success is wasn't going to come from the big already existing companies. It was going to be forced. And that's going to be true 10 years from when you get open AI and rigged. Right. That's exactly what I mean. It was with open AI already and Sam Altman said that long ago. No, no. No. Absolutely not. Absolutely. No. Yeah. All right. Well, now let's go on break and we'll be right back. All right, Lee, we're back from break. I definitely want to talk a little bit about what's going on or at least some of the news that are coming out of Apple. We don't know. This is just something that was published in the verge. And I think it was also Mark German from Bloomberg. He was talking about Apple abandoning their AR video AR glasses project as well. So it's supposed to code named N107. And we'll continue to focus on its vision pro ecosystem, et cetera. I mean, I'm not sure whether this is true or not. Sadly, I think that's a bad move if they're not focusing on air glasses. I mean, I think they should double down. I think they should focus on the future of hardware. I think they have a lead in a lot of those things. I don't think it is like the car situation. So that being said, well, I want you to take on that. And then I'll mention something that they just did that I found super interesting that Apple just did. So all of this is weird speculation because part of the conversation is saying, okay, they're going to move away from this and they're going to go back and kind of revisit the conversation with Apple Vision Pro. Let's just break it down like this. Apple is not in a position to make a piece of hardware that can get the mass adoption of the iPhone today. They can continue to make the iPhone because they've corralled a huge user base into an ecosystem. that they must have and it's very hard to escape that ecosystem and it is just easier to play along. But we have seen the lines for the iPhone no longer wrap around the building. And people do not upgrade year after year. So you're seeing more gradual leaps in iPhone users of I'm going to go from an iPhone 13 to an iPhone 16 as opposed to I'm on the iPhone 15 and I want that new new on the like iPhone 16. Well, like we don't see that today. Their computers have an equally difficult situation, but they've always kind of been like a five year turnaround on their computers. So how do you take a piece of hardware as expensive and complex to build as the Apple Vision Pro or glasses like the in 107 and convinced people that they've got a drop. I'm not saying in 107 or whatever their code name is is going to be this much. I don't know, but we know it's probably going to be over $1,000 because they don't make anything for less than $1,000. We already see it over. I mean, most of us that have pro-maxes and stuff, they're over $1,000 for your phone. Totally. And that's their expectation. But is there a marketplace to provide that? Whereas you've got meta who has dominated the situation. They don't really sell anything that's over 500 bucks. Anything. They tried to sell the Quest 2 pro at $1,200 in the market. That's still pulled them. That was too expensive. So like meta doesn't actually sell a piece of hardware to the mass population. That's over $500. It doesn't exist. And Apple does not have a way to make anything other than like maybe their keyboard and mouse that is less than $1,000. So they've got a profit margin issue or something where I just don't think they can do it until they can come up with something that legitimizes the price discrepancy. And luxury isn't going to do it anymore. And they don't have an ecosystem that proves that hardware currently. Two things I wouldn't bet against Apple. I'd never do. Like, as you know, I think that even if they cancel things, I think they're still going to have people working on whatever comes next. Yeah. I was in that camp of don't bet against Apple until the Apple Vision Pro. And the Apple Vision Pro missed the mark on so many things that it made me question how they designed it. And if I'm sitting here questioning how Apple designed something, the only thing that they want to be known for doing. Design. Yes, what they do really well. It makes me question. It makes me bet against Apple. Like, the show has the receipts. Go back to when we were talking about the AVP, I was saying something completely different. I was with you. Don't bet against Apple has been proven to be the success. I mean, I, yeah, the success that we thought it was going to be no, I will say there is some positive news in the AVP world. Sure. Around healthcare and medical. There's actually an article on popular science. It says the future of the Apple Vision Pro is in medicine. One year after it's released, the headset is springing up in operating rooms and doctors offices. Very much true. And then at the end of January, sharp healthcare hosted the inaugural spatial computing healthcare summit. It started to pop up in ORs. I definitely see how for healthcare, a $3,500 device that allows you to have maybe more precision or do something better is not that expensive, right? When you're talking about robots for operations that cost even if you go back to like before the break when you were talking about training in VR, that cost is negligible when you're talking about an NFL player, right? Like, professional enterprise solutions that are necessary here, but the AVP really wasn't marketed as an enterprise solution for anything. And I totally understand where it is the most processing, powerful V all in one VR headset. I know they don't want me to call it a VR headset. It's a VR headset. The facial computer, whatever. It's a duck. So if it quacks, it's a duck. Okay. It's a duck. All right. All right. Potato potato, but okay. Sorry, Tim, but I do think that those things are out there and they can do things that the meta headset can't do. But I'm simply looking at a mass adoption piece. When you start talking about glasses, can Apple hit the right market that competes with because they're no longer competing with meta at that point. They're competing with Rayband. And so if they already have Rayband, who are you going to to, you know, to mean like to make that user connective tissue to a brand that already makes sense? There's a lot that's impressive, but it does make me question. I don't know. I think, you know, the future of spatial goes through not just the AVP, but also through AirPods with cameras. I don't know. Apple's just in a weird situation. Everything that they put out right now has to be like caveat it. This is true. Yeah. Even Apple intelligence, I'm not like, yo, Apple intelligence has scaled back since its launch. I've noticed this in summaries. Yeah. So I'm like, you are both writers. We write constantly. And so one of the things I was excited about Apple intelligence was proofreading, just making sure my grammar was correct. I don't want you to hallucinate. I don't want you to change anything in what I'm writing. I just need you to tell me if I actually understand what to do with the semicolon. And so I used Apple intelligence to do my proofreading for my grammar. And I realized I was writing last week. It no longer can do a full page of text. You have to do a paragraph at a time. And that was not a situation that came in an update. They've had to scale things back. They're fine tuning, they're recognizing these things. And it just comes with this idea that everything Apple has put out even the iPhone 16, where they launched it in every advertisement said, you're going to get the iPhone 16 because you want Apple intelligence, asterisk, currently not available on the iPhone 16. Apple's got to do something about that asterisk because everything they're putting out has a caveat right now. It feels weird. It feels real weird. And I'm not an apple hater. I'm an Apple user. My main computer in every studio I work in is an Apple device. But it is one of those things where it's getting dicey. It's strange. I don't know what they're going to do. Trim down memory lane for anyone watching the video. I don't know if you can see that. But that's a picture of me February 2nd of last year at the fashion center at Pentagon City was one of the first people in DC to get a vision pro. Yeah. Crazy. I mean, I had already demoed it. Obviously, because I had done some work as a developer and I had gone to New York to do like impressive device. Sadly, but yeah, like I don't think I'm like a little nostalgic that that was a year ago. And I had so much hope. I mean, I'm still a glass half full kind of gal, right? But I remember standing in line. And there was a young kid like a young boy. He's probably less than 10 years old and he was getting his vision pro as well. There was a service member like an army guy behind you as well. Those getting it for gaming. And I'm like, wonder where it is right now. Because mine is I have two ones right here. And yeah, one I use sometimes. But there is a nostalgia. Yeah. There is a bit of nostalgia in my perspective on I wish this could have gone so much better. And I honestly think that it could have this comes down to a failure of design because there's nothing component wise. There's nothing wrong with it. But there was a level of and I don't have another way of describing this. So I'm sorry. I know that I have ample fans who listen to this show and they're going to shake their fists at me. Get over it. Yeah, more. Yeah. But there is a arrogance of design choices on the Apple Vision Pro of like we're going to use premium materials of metal in glass. I say it doesn't work. It makes me so upset when I see and that's what I mean is like there's a reason why you don't make your headsets out of metal in glass because that stuff is heavy and you have neck constraints. There is an argument for the top strap which they did try to provide one, but they didn't provide that top strap option with the comfortable backheads. Yeah. Why? So they're eyesight. Yeah. That should have never left a drawing board. And so there is this like arrogance of design in that particular headset that I think is going to be studied by design classes in the future of where does this class is too wrong? Because hardware wise it's a mean. There's a future version can steer the ship and I still believe that some type of new devices are the ones that are going to lead us into whatever replace. I do too. Right. I do too. Is was this it? No, but we never thought it was going to be necessarily it. We just thought it was going to go better. Oh, well, and we've always said that. This will be the worst one they ever made. Yeah. But we'll see what the future about it. And I think it's been a year like yeah. How's it? Yeah. How's your sales? So we do have a guest interview today. So before we go to the guest interview, lean any other news you want us to tackle one piece of news that I'm super hyped about because I always talk about Nintendo. I am that guy. I get it. Nintendo switch to super excited about but this is less about Nintendo and the switch to and more about Xbox. So the CEO, Microsoft Gaming confirmed in a really recent podcast that Xbox titles are actually expected to come to the Nintendo switch to this could mean everything from like Halo to flight simulator. No one really knows. But all of those exclusive titles are looking at like where else can they live, which is kind of kind of quite simulator in the switch. I mean, yeah, you want to see flight simulator. You should see it in VR. Yeah, like it's like a switch. I don't know. I don't know. It's fun. It's a fun idea. It's experienced of the simulation, but it could be something else. But like, that's what I mean is those are two very different things when you start comparing like Halo to like simulator. Switch, flight simulator to cover. I don't know about that one. But Microsoft games saying, you know what? Nintendo, you did it right. Let's see where we can start collaborating, putting some of our content. So we can get it to the players. It's a big deal. - Well, and then our friend Matthew Ball, I should put out some amazing research on the state of gaming and where people are playing, whether it's mobile, console, across different devices. Highly recommend you look at that. So for anyone interested in the gaming space, his report was fantastic, fantastic, from Matthew Ball. But yeah, I think Lee, do we need to rename this podcast instead of TechMagic than Nintendo podcast? - No, no, no. I had one article today. I held back. - You held back. - I did. - You held back. Well, let me tell you about our guests. We have my friend Jeff Barrett, who's the chief evangelist at the Shorty Awards. When I came back from Dubai for the 1 billion followers summit, I am a creator myself. You are a creator yourself. I am really doubling down mentally and thinking through the creator economy, what does that really mean, what are the dynamics, dynamics of it, like geographically speaking, where are the pockets of growth for creator economy? What does it truly mean to be a creator that actually maybe makes money out of their content or their content is the one that leads to business for them? I created ourselves. So I was able to reach out to Jeff and talk to Jeff, who is a dear friend. We both met as creators where Adobe had invited us to an event as creators and talked to him about the creator economy, the future of the Shorty Awards, where short form video is going. So let's listen to the interview. All right, everyone. Today's guest is my dear friend who have known for many years, Jeff Barrett, the chief evangelist at the Shorty Awards. Jeff, welcome to TechMagic. - Hey, howdy, hi. Can't you be here? - Hello. I'm excited to hear a year because we've been chatting forever and I'm just glad to have you on the pod finally. And I know you're a listener as well. You've listened to several of our episodes, so welcome. - It's good to be the interview see too. I try and be a really good listener when I'm hosting mine and I don't have to do that this time. I can just talk. - You just get to talk in this one. I get to ask the questions, which I love. - Yes, hot seat, lighten around, let's go. - I know, let's do this. So I want folks to hear about the Shorty Awards. I think a lot of people listening to this pod probably know the Shorty Awards, but we do have a very international audience. We're growing in a lot of different places and they might have heard of it or they might not know the Shorty Awards. So just give folks kind of like a 101 on what the Shorty Awards are. - Yeah, 17 years in now. I've been involved in the organization now for 10 years. I've won one for Best Business Blogger, which kind of points to how much this award show has adapted over time. I think it's always been at the epicenter of the creator economy and whatever that was at the time. But it's platform agnostic, even though there have been platform awards at times, but it's the best in advertising, short form media. We have the real form or the real time Academy for short form arts and sciences too. So that's kind of our boards who can judge. And really it's just about honoring the innovation that you see. I think this year we're gonna be having a bolder show that's really talking about people who break the rules and really get out there and do amazing work. But yeah, just the opportunity to really highlight both the stuff that we probably see a lot, literally and maybe some underdogs. - Yeah, I mean, I'm really excited. So I've been a member of the Academy as well. So I've helped judge in the past and yeah, just the amount of creativity and just innovation. Like I've always been surprised by some of the creators and some of the brands that are bringing really fresh content to short form. - Absolutely. And sometimes the greatest innovations come from when, you know, you might be restricted or the budget is small or you have something that you have to kind of work around. That's always the most interesting thing. But maybe generally I really, I'm always profoundly interested. I've judged for a long time too. And now in my role in the last couple of years is kind of trying to enhance the brand and build it out too where it's more year round rather than a couple events other year because we have our regular show and made in the way of impact, which is more CSR focus in November. But we're really trying to, interestingly, we've sat at this position where we have the data and what works and what doesn't to really inform and better collaborate with the agency world on the creator of the Academy. - Yeah, I mean, that's great. And in your role as Chief Evangelist, you've also hosted the show, I believe, right? - I did, I did host the show last year, which was an honor and privilege. And I don't want to do it every year because also people get sick of me, but it was wonderful to be up there. And I don't have moments, I don't think, I mean, as an extreme expert, I don't think I have a lot of moments where I get nervous per se, but I was certainly excitable. And then you have those moments where you're just kind of like walking back to your hotel and you're like, oh, I need to calm down from this. - Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. When no one's gonna get tired of you, Jeff, come on, you're amazing. - I mean, there really is an poster syndrome when you're in a room with that many talented people. I am just a humble person from the Midwest who has figured out a niche in this space and really have tried to kind of be a person who started as, I think the really fun thing is I am a person who started as a creator and then I got behind the scenes, where my own agency and now in collaboration with the Shory Wars were barking on being able to really help the community. - Yeah, and you and I actually met as creators 'cause we were both part of the Adobe Insiders group not in the day, that's kind of how we met as professional business thought leaders and creators that were brought in by Adobe. So we are proof of that creator economy and the success you can have in it, right? - You wanna know what's really funny about that? I don't know if you know the story or not, but when I started becoming a, so I was an experiential and doing stuff on YouTube and blowing up bridges, things that bridges, not the actual bridge, that's an important distinction. That's a Mr. Beast kind of thing, yeah. Okay, you need to have a budget for that, but yeah. - Right, like a definitely low budget Mr. Beast 15, 20 years ago, but what I was doing in the early 2010s and what led to working with Adobe on that program was I looked at marketing and I saw that there were a lot of self-described titles and I thought, it was kind of, there was a lot of the same and I think anytime you see, no matter what it is, you see a lot of things that are similar. You start to go, that's right for parity and I always have this mind that thinks, okay, this would be good to do a parity. So I created essentially on Twitter or 2010 and 2011, I just created a fake influencer, like thought leader in marketing page and the whole thing was a parity and I was giving demotivational advice. Like if everybody was trying to be like a motivational speaker, I was kind of doing the opposite. Like, yeah, it was just sleeping till 11, you should do this, like don't hustle and over time what happened is like, I would get included in an article here, I get included in this and I get included in a list and the business owner being either number one ad executive to follow and like all these little things happen and I was like, I'm doing this too well, no one is in on the joke. I have been too subtle and so then-- - We were like, this is a parity account y'all. - Yeah, it was a parity account and so I was like, well, I guess I should just kind of go along with the joke but you know, Adobe was great because that was one of the first times that I was allowed to kind of create and implement what I thought was a much better model of working with creators. Meaning that you do not treat it like a programmatic ad, you do not treat it like a media buy. And this is endemic in what I do now and what you know we're embarking on the shorty words is that you have to treat it more like you would treat the HR department and you have to know that there's exponential value in working with somebody the seventh time rather than the first. - Oh yeah, I agree. I think it'd be really interesting to share a little bit as you look at the shorty words, been around for a long time has seen the evolution of content and creators from the vine days to today. When you think of the current landscape, when you're thinking short form and you think and everything that's happening with AI with emerging tech, what is your perspective here on the current state of short form and where am I be heading? - I'll take it in the direction you tell me if you'd like me into elaborate. It's always kind of like we're yes-ending but I think we're getting to a much more refined space. When I talk to creators, almost every one of them knows so much about the data and the algorithm and what to build for. And we kind of talk about an AI 20 rule, which is that 80% of the content you're kind of building for that audience and the algorithm. And 20% you're just kind of babbling and throwing different things out there because you don't know if something might lead to a different audience or something else but just the refinement when it comes to creators and how much they know what works. I've always thought there's a general principle which is that I started in my space and have evolved all the way to sub-stack. And there's a lot of twists and turns along the way. I was very into buying. And I think you can tell sometimes if a creator was into buying because of just how well they're able to quickly do their cuts in six seconds. I think the biggest things we try and look at is it's more in how you connect to audience rather than it's how you navigate platform. That being said though, if you see that there's a shift to LinkedIn allowing more on video, right? Or that TikTok is suddenly making a push towards more than a minute, which is AKA long form. The definition changes. So I think you have to be data informed and you have to be up on those trends. But I think the bigger thing that I'm looking at is a trend of 2025. And you can tell me again if this is answering the question or not, I think it's in elongating the creator of the creator. And what I mean by that is that whether that's creating episodic content, so you see that with Check and Child Date and Bumble or in other places like collaborating on more digital series based content because I think YouTube is now over 10% of people's viewership on the actual TV. So you're getting a lot more of that content just being delivered exactly that way. So you can see where if you can make the budget work that's actually a better test market for brands, the other thing is that, you know, and you saw this with Conor McGregor. Look, I looked at this like four years ago I think Conor McGregor was the highest paid athlete in the world. And I was like, well, that can't be from fighting the UFC because they notoriously don't pay them. - But you can't be trading all the time. - No, it's a limited thing, right? It's finite. - Yes. About every couple of, you know, every month, whatever. But yeah, you can't be like fighting every weekend. So that's nuts. - But it was because he sold his stake in proper number 12. And so what you're seeing, whether it's with Slyke Management Group and Secret Lives of Mormon, lives, are you seeing with prime, with KSA and, you know, looking Paul or with Alex Cooper's on well, you are going to, our, you know, feastables, you're going to see a lot more product that is owned and collaborated with the creator, rather than just taking the brand deal. And I think that's the biggest evolution. And then it's incumbent on us to have these relationships in the marketplace because of our like foreign again, newsletter, it's probably half creator half agency. And so we do know a lot of people that we can kind of try and merge these things and make better collaborations. - Yeah, 100%. And I think it's that shift of the creator becoming their own business, like it's not just their creator and then they partner with brands. So they start to own their business, they start to create multiple revenue streams and they own some of the IP, which I think is incredibly important for creators, being able to own your IP. And yeah, like creating that. But then also I love seeing how the creators have become their own media companies, right? I love that they are the sources of information, right? I think regardless of where people stand politically, the last election definitely showed that podcasters, for example, having a great, great immense power. More so to reach a giant audience that maybe people used to reach on CMBC or MSNBC or whatever. I think it's really interesting to look at that shift in the attention economy side of the creator economy, right? Where is attention going? And how are the creators profiting? But also, where is our attention going and who are we paying attention to? So very powerful moment for creators in general. - Well, absolutely. And so Abhi Gandhi had this post a couple days ago about trying to build out and build up the middle class of the creator economy, which I think is super important because generally speaking, like you talk about podcasters, you talk about anything, there are some people who make a ton of money doing this. And then there's the 98% of people who are just kind of dabbling. And so it's very much akin to pro sports or anything else where a select few are really upping that gain. Now, that's not to say that you can't have a TikTok shop or other small businesses are like, we've really gotten into some really good creator commerce. But I think that that next evolution is being able to attract the audience, the approach in a refined way, and then lead to something else. And you see that whether it's somebody building out a newsletter or capturing in some way that audience to try and take it to the next level, that's the point. But I do think that we are probably going to see the top 100, top 150 creators, probably create even more distance because of their ability to create these really strong product brands. - Yeah, yeah, billionaires. I mean, yeah. I think it's really interesting to see kind of the progression of all this. I do think there is a huge opportunity for the nano influencers, for the influencers that maybe don't have these millions, they're not a Kardashian kind of situation. But that have a voice and have a very engaged audience and a specific niche that a brand might want to reach. So they're the right person to go to if they want a truly influencer or reach a specific audience. So I think there is great power still. And maybe some of those, some of the creator economy, somewhere in the middle, maybe. But that's definitely what I'm seeing. My numbers are like, if I compare myself to some other people, like I don't have the giant numbers that someone like my friend Ali K. Miller has, love her. But I have a really engaged audience on LinkedIn. I have several audiences. But yeah, like I consider myself to be more on that nano side where it's like, I have a tech audience, et cetera. It's not giant, but it's very engaged and very much trusting of what I am sharing with them. - Well, and so with every iteration and every evolving part of the space comes an unintended consequence. And so this sets up perfectly because a lot of these creators are going to creating their own products and doing other things and less on the brand partnership side, right? They're evolving higher. This is going to create a greater emphasis than for the brands to work with mid-scale or now influencers. And what's really interesting about that is that if you create the right incentives and you create the right growth trajectory, then you can actually have a large group of creators involved with your brand and they grow with you. And so you create the opportunities for them to grow and you keep them in the fold. And then like anything, if they keep growing and they grow beyond it, that's okay. But you create a system that makes creators want to grow with you, then that's a system that can bear out over time. And I think that's where we're heading. I think we're heading into a shift in the space, but I'm very excited about it, not just because of where I see there's opportunities along the line, but I think it plays well into my theory that you just don't want to be transactional. You don't want to have the churn philosophy of like, okay, well, we reach out, we gave you a tumbler and then we'll see you in 18 months. It's more so, you know, how can we benefit from the relationship at brand side? And how can the creator benefit from the channels and the prestige and the relationships that the brand has? And if you think about that, I mean, that's going to allow any creator a better growth trajectory. 'Cause I would rather be able to better myself and grow as a creator and 10X what I'm doing, then take a very small payment. - Yeah, I agree with you 100%, and even in my personal, like the work where I do with some brands, I was negotiating a contract recently. And I said, well, if you can't offer me what I want, why don't we negotiate the title or negotiate some of the benefits I'm getting so that there is this added benefit. It's not a monetary one, but there is this added benefit for me to grow. So I completely agree with you. I have a question when it comes to the shorty awards and kind of the expansion globally. I mean, the creator economy is a global thing, right? A big percentage is North America, of course, but there is so much growth happening, you know, I've been spending a lot of time in the Middle East, for example, went to the 1 billion followers summit, loved learning about the influencer and creator economy there, spending a lot of time in South Africa, parts of Africa, which is booming as well. Latin America, I feel like there's so many vibrant places for the creator economy. When you look at the shorties, how do you look at that expansion globally towards the creator economy, which is kind of a global thing? - Yeah, I mean, that's the same thing too. We're honoring things all over the world, right? So, you know, whether it's in EmeA, like Lanham, everywhere, APAC, like we've had a stronger concentration of things coming from either small agencies in India or divisions of larger agencies in those countries. And what's been really awesome is being able to collaborate and grow that piece in those markets. And I think that's something that we're only gonna continue to do further, because we can bring an understanding of certain principles and have certain connections. But I think every time we work with another organization in a different market, we're also learning just as much. We're learning about how to grow. And then we can then translate that back to the other agencies and people that we work with. - Yeah, I feel like it's really interesting to watch all the way agencies are innovating and creating content that is culturally relevant for their specific audiences and their brands, right? - You have to know those nuances, absolutely. - You have to have those nuances. And I feel like looking at that broader creator economy and the advertising economy outside of just the US, I think is very powerful. Well, if you haven't done the listening, and this is true for everything, if you haven't done the listening, then it's kind of like that Steve Bouchemmie and with the backwards hat and the skateboard. It's just like, hello fellow kids. This whole entire industry is based on connection and trust. One of the things we talk about a lot too with partners is that you have to be willing, whether that's 10% or 20% or whatever the case may be, to have some leniency on the brand, on how that's going to be portrayed, because you have to trust that the creator has, I mean, their entire livelihood is built into knowing this audience. They're gonna know it better than you do. And so you have to give a little there, but then they also have to give a little to kind of bridge that gap as well. So again, it's the trust and the connection. And that's why I kind of harp on, again, work with people for 10 times and you will get a really refined, great thing. And then also people will know them for that. It's the same thing like if pick insurance mascot that you want, whether it's Flow or Jake from State Farm or whoever it is, like-- - Or Gecko's Gecko, Gecko, whatever. - Right, you know, Lee Moo, Lee Moo, right? You just know that it's the same general principle that you do this over time. People are going to recognize it for that. And if you do it creatively with the right intent and you can bring that audience with you, keep more invested in that creator's success. They're gonna follow. - Yeah, 100%. So let's hope the shorty words coming up this year, anything fun, plan anything, you can share with folks, anything they need to know. - I mean, that's a lot, that's a lot, a lot. - Yeah, Mid-May in New York, not a lot that I can share yet. We're a little early on that, but I will say that having looked at some of the submissions and the work that we have, I think this is going to be a bolder show that's a little bit, you know, it kind of think of this show as what liquid death would be. - Woo, I love that. Liquid death is like one of my favorite go-to brands for anything marketing. They're just fantastic. - I got to talk to Andy Pearson for my podcast. It's no fluke. And it is inspiring to be able to talk because one of the things he said, he's like, well, in the room, we just try and come up with the dumbest idea possible and then we try and defend it. And I thought, that's fun. And if you look at the through line of brands that people love to talk about the most, whether that's liquid death right now or do a lingo, it's the empowerment of the team to freely go after the things that they think will work, because they understand what that audience wants. I absolutely love that. And they always hit the mark. Like even when you think, how is this gonna even take off, it takes off. Like the diaper selling out for liquid death, I was just like, wow. - Who doesn't want an eight foot cooler/casket, right? Who doesn't want a hot, fudge sunday sparkling water? Who doesn't want to miss fortune cookie? And that's again, if there's a call back to this entire conversation, it's that a lot of things, things are always right for parity. Although you should probably be more obvious with it than I was. Yes. Lesson from the past. So Jeff, for folks that want to learn more about the shorties, connect with you, where do they find you, where do they find more information on the shorties? Go to shortiwords.com. You can check out our newest letter that goes out two times a week. We might be doing it three times a week. Check out Bell a little bit more. We're working on something cool there. The podcast is called It's No Fluke. I think we're like 130 episodes in. And I've been on it. I believe I think I've been on your podcast. You are. You weren't only early guests before I had like fully refined my interview style. So I feel like it gets much better. Oh, by the way, that is one of the things. It's always a shout out. Shout out to the people who are like the first 15 guests on pod because you don't know quite where you're getting into, but it's really helpful. But yeah, I mean, we've had some really great people from Google and Meta and like with death in the NFL. And we're continuing to really talk with you. I think are the most innovative and important people running agencies and creator agencies in the world. Who's your dream guest? Dream guest. Oh my goodness. I think that would be kind of a kin to a music fan trying to figure out their favorite band in a day. But if I'm thinking about it, someone who's antithetical to the space is not someone in the space. I like to talk to guests that aren't necessarily in the agency space. And so there's like Joel Man from Good Charlotte or Trey, who I really get conversation with. I think what I like is to be able to push the envelope of who we talk to and what we talk about because I never want it to be. And I think that's the same way you feel about your podcast is you don't want it to be inside the advertiser studio with James Lichten. Like you want it to be something that kind of catches you off guard, but draws you in in some way. Absolutely. I mean, we've had love coaches. We've had like people that are not in text space with talking about how tech is being used in their specific niche. And those are some of our most listened episodes. It's been when it's something that's not necessarily like within the text space, but there's a relevant interesting connection. So I definitely love bringing a different perspective. So totally get what you're saying. I think we all have layers to us and we don't necessarily have to. I mean, the algorithm is going to push us into an echo chamber, but it's the learning and the fun that you get out of being outside of the echo chamber. That's fun. I'll enjoy it. 100%. Well, Jeff, it's been a pleasure having you. It went by too fast. But thanks to everybody for listening, Kathy, thank you so much for having me. You bet. Yeah. So very interesting perspective on the future of the creator economy. I mean, do you yourself consider yourself a creator? I mean, I view you as a creator, but do you like that? No, no. Interesting. No, I don't mean that is the negative. Okay. Okay. I'll present Jack. It was never a goal. Okay. So that was never a goal. I've always considered myself or I've been told that oh, you're a creative. Right? Like for sure. And it's a personality trait as opposed to an occupational goal. So as a creative, I wanted to be a musician or a music producer or a tech designer or something along those lines. And I've done all of those things. And so content got created because of that, right? Music or even the technology has been during in the content. I've talked about it here. I'm currently still reeling from a weird bump in Instagram fame over something that shouldn't have happened. And I don't mean that in negative. Don't go looking for like some like, crazy drama on my Instagram. Like I produced a beat. No, no, I just it was viral organic. Yeah. Organically. I love you. Yeah. There was not any. I don't know where followers and I do, which I'm still like, it's hey, you know what? Go make a Pac-Man. I don't know. I don't know. The Algo loves Pac-Man. But I didn't see that as like content creation, but because that I've been having to force myself to put that in perspective and where things do arrive because it is kind of like that is where the economy has gone is like from a creative perspective, you kind of have to go into the economics of creating content as a creator. A lot of create repeating myself there. So I don't want to. You don't want to. But I'm going to do one, sir. I mean, I don't think people hate that term. But I do see you as a creator. I think you've always been a creative creative. Yeah. But I see you as a creator as well, especially after that whole Pac-Man thing. I was like, you found it. You found your niche. You found what people want to see from you. And it's continuing to grow that I spent the last. I follow you on Insta and I love what you're doing. And I think that that is really where your audience, what they want to see from you. Yes. My whole Instagram has turned into like my music creation stuff. Which it used to just be about me, but like, no, that's what people want to see. But now you're going to treat for you're doing all these sorts of things, right? Your headlining, like, that's opening up all these avenues that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't put that on Instagram. They could have. A hundred percent. They could have. And they have in the past, but not as rapidly as it's happened in the last two months. It has been a dynamic shift for sure. So, I mean, very interesting the way it's all kind of developing. I will say mentioning social media and creators. It's interesting to start to see more and more celebrities going into LinkedIn, like Snoop Dogg hit it last year. Rees with their Spoon just joined LinkedIn as being very active. I'm a LinkedIn influencer. I've been with them. Yeah, I've never catch up with your LinkedIn cloud. I just can't. I love LinkedIn. It's been my favorite. I would not have been a successful in business. I would not have sold my company if it were not for LinkedIn. I'll tell you the truth. LinkedIn is the one that has really catapulted my career and beyond beyond what I could have imagined. And LinkedIn is surprisingly a very like, I don't have this isn't the right word for it, but I don't have another word for it. It's kind of like a purest approach to social media where like you know by going to LinkedIn what you're going to by and large, what you're going to be faced with every once in a while you get some weird LinkedIn, Luna Tickco goes rogue and start talking about it stuff. No one wants to see on LinkedIn. And they get shut down pretty fast. Yeah. But like LinkedIn has done a really good job of holding the fort of this is where business comes for social media. And I'm impressed. I'm genuinely impressed with LinkedIn from that perspective. I think it's great. And I think you don't see a Reese with their spoon and everything come. I won't say like I do get asked I get asked on dates on LinkedIn. Whoa, that's interesting. It was very weird. I guess you know whatever, whatever it's a very strange world not that I'm going on dates with anyone from LinkedIn. But yeah, it's really funny. I think our LinkedIn DMs are very different. Well, I get all sorts of business inquiries, but now it's like, we have funny, funny world. But anyway, anyway, so Reese with us when you might get asked to go out on LinkedIn. But anyway, I think that's the show for today. Lee. Yes, but before we wrap up, I always love to do the music recommendation. This is more of a testament to broadcast radio than anything because I was completely unaware of this, but we have a fantastic jazz station here in Portland that still just plays whatever the DJ wants the play at the time, which I don't think a lot of places have anymore. And so this was a discovery just listening to the radio driving around town. So Soul Symphony is an album by a jazz group from the late 60s called The Three Sounds. Album is incredibly vibrant. It showcases the trio's signature of soulful grooves. Really interesting blues jazz in there. And I'm talking like old bluesy jazz. It's a real soundscape. So if you're looking for something different that can like just play in the background, the whole album, you can stream on YouTube right now and it is fantastic or Spotify or whatever. It is the thing I'm putting on if I'm like doing dishes or cleaning the house or whatever or just like making dinner. It's just playing on my background. So check that out. It's called Soul Symphony by The Three Sounds is the artist. What are you going through? We always I always come back to what are you reading? What's your suggestion? Well, I'm reading a book that just came out called Employment is Dead from the Harvard Business Review. It's written by two friends. They actually asked me to blur the book. It's in the back. So Adam Grant, for example, myself and some other folks blurbed the book. Really interesting one. So Employment is Dead highly recommended. You can buy it on Amazon or HBR. And then I do want to give our shout out to my friend Amanda Costco who used to be a producer on Metabush Marketing. Her book just went on pre-sale on Amazon. It's called Electric Runway. How emerging technologies are transforming the $3 trillion fashion industry around the world. You can pre-order right now. It comes out in September. So yeah, great stuff all around. Awesome. We will be back next week. Thanks for tuning into Tech Magic where we always invite you to come for the tech stay for the magic. I'm Lee Keelter here with the incredible Kathy Hackel and Special thanks as always to ad week for bringing this show to you. If you'd enjoyed today's episode, please leave us a review. Let us know your thoughts. You can reach out to us. We love to connect with you. Obviously now you know Kathy is super on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. I'm also on Blue Sky. We're kind of it doesn't mean I'm going to date you. Okay. I know. I'm going to give you a cube. It's just joking. You can just search for Tech Magic. Kathy Hackel on me, Lee Keelter. And you will find us on one of your platforms. Until next week, have a good one.