Grasstops vs. Grassroots: How Real Community Engagement Looks (S4:E6)

Restored in justice looks like really centering an approach where the processes and solutions that you're building only go as fast as your relationships can go and they honor the relationship above everything else. I'm Carolyn Parris, communicator, coach and host of Just Power, a podcast about creating a clean energy future without leaving anyone behind. Join me as we explore the technologies, policies and human stories that can make clean energy not just sustainable for a planet but accessible for everyone. Welcome to Just Power. Hi, I'm Carolyn Parris. We talk a lot about community engagement in the energy transition a lot on Just Power but too often it lives at the grass tops, right? Formal hearings and occasional email, limited processes versus the grass roots which is getting to the very heart of what communities need and want where the people are affected most. And this is playing out in real time right now in Denver. So make sure you check out our last show number five and that is why I invited on today Mary Palmer who is the founder of New Bio and the director of energy equity and inclusion at Smart Electric Power Alliance. We're going to explore what real engagement looks like when it's rooted in relationships, lived experience and agency. So welcome Mary. Thank you, Carolyn. It's nice to be here. Great to have you on and perfect timing for this interview. Before we get into practices and good measures of what community engagement is, I wanted to start with you, right? What experiences in your own life shaped how you think about equity today? Honestly really my mom was a really big impact in my life in that space. So my mom when I was growing up had kidney disease and she was a very staunch advocate for improving some of the services that she had for her health, right? And a lot of people don't realize this but the medications and all of the processes that you have to have in order to remain healthy and alive with kidney disease are only provided. They're very expensive. They're very expensive, right? And so if you are not eligible for disability and services like that, then honestly that can be the difference between life and death. And so my mom was a huge advocate. We went with her to city council meetings. We wanted her to health. Yes, she taught us. I knew Robert's rules of orders before I even knew what they were called. And it just really instilled in the room. All along. I didn't know. But it was very important to her that the decisions that were being made about her health and the benefits that would help pay for her health were coming from her and others with that lived experience and not people who who frankly had more familiar with what that was like. So that was a really big factor in my life and really helped me to understand the power of being an advocate and using her voice to influence the things that impact you the most closely. So yeah. So thank you mom, right? Okay. So fast forward, right? You've worked inside of energy systems and policy spaces and now you're building something new. I am. Yeah. So what did you see or feel that told you that the traditional approaches and ways that we've been doing it just around engagement wasn't enough? You know, I think there's a couple of things. I think the education part was something that stood out a lot. Like I have been on both sides as you mentioned. I've done a lot of work in different sectors and I would go and as an advocate, I would notice that there was just really big gap about how systems worked and how to navigate the system and who did what? Yeah. So it was always very passionate about helping people understand. You know, no one who does what is really important. You know, if you go ask the mayor for something that the governor does, then you're not going to give very far and so there it was really creating this this separation between people and creating this deep mistrust when people felt like their voices weren't being heard, right? So that that I'm very passionate about that education and as far as like and I also noticed that the solutions that were being come up with were they weren't an alignment with what people really wanted. A lot of times someone would come in looking from the outside which can be very valuable by the way, but they didn't have that lived experience and they hadn't taken the time to simply go to someone and say what top three things would be most impactful right now, right? They often would look exactly conduct some sort of formal research. What top three things would be most impactful for you right now. If you just ask that one question, it could get you so far, right? So far. So far. I love it. And so I just saw that and I was like, there just needs to be a different way of engaging. Haven't been the both the person who advocated and the person who designed programs. There's just this missing piece and that's what new values meant to solve. Okay. So just tell us just to give a little context about new bio, right? You're transitioning. Tell me what what is that and what when you hope to achieve in it. Yeah. So I've spent a lot of time, most of my time I would say doing work everywhere else but I moved to New York when I was young. I traveled a lot currently for work now. And I would go out into the world and bring people together and talk about issues in their communities and how to fix things and how to work together more collaboratively. And then just come home and leave again and it hurts me. I was like, I really want to put down my roots and get back to where I live to the place where I live. Yes. And so new bio is just that, you know, my family. A lot of us have roots in the Gulf Coast Texas and just looking at issues that are unique to this area and pulling together resources and assets, right? That are here and leveraging those to create solutions for the future. So I'm very excited about a looking at that region and just leveraging some of those approaches nationally and internationally once we are able to. Yeah. I you know, I've often been called a bridge right between sometimes the environmental communities and utilities. And that's what you're doing, right? Yes. Advocates, right? And the communities that utilities and institutions, right, interact with and helping both sides, frankly, right? Exactly. So we're going to talk a little bit about both sides, what both sides maybe need to know and need to do differently to have the impact that they that they're going for and can help. So one of the one of the things that I want to talk about is this idea of agency, right? And we had a little conversation before the podcast about agency and I want you to I want it if you would explain what does it look like when a person has agency and what does it look like when they don't, right? And that's a big piece of how they interact and what they receive from their the companies. That's a really great question. You know, it comes to mind specifically in the space of community engagement. I think when someone has agency, they are equipped with the knowledge and skills to advocate for themselves, right? You're you're providing you're filling a gap with the assumption that that person is more than capable of picking up the mantle and fixing a problem for themselves, right? Okay. So that would look that looks like me going say, Hey, Carolyn, you know, there's this thing. Let me work with you and where you live to understand your system so that when you go talk to your councilmember, you're able to inform them on your opinion. That's a very, very powerful. Right. And the part about also knowing what's important to them who you're talking to. Exactly. Because you can be explaining things that are important to you. But how does that person or that system meet that that will have a lot to do about the impact you have? Right? 100% 100%. You're so right. And it's like it's not only understanding exactly like you said, how does this system work? What are some tools? How you can identify the values of the person you're speaking to? And how can you leverage what somebody else's goals and and vision to achieve your own. That is agency. Right? And on the converse, it looks like someone, a community engagement person going into a community. And just giving kind of one-sided information, very specific, this is what is going to happen and this is what you should do. Right? It's not leaning into their skills or empowering people to use their own voice. It's them extracting information so they can go advocate on their behalf. And I don't want to be, speak out of turn, I think that advocating out of the people's behalf is extremely important. I love, I can't underscore the importance of an ally. But that an ally is by no means the replacement for self-advocacy. Okay. I wanted to provide that baseline because that's really important on where we're going to go with this. So why do so many engagement efforts, even well-intention ones, get stuck at the grass tops level? Oh, because grass roots takes a lot of time. Thanks a lot. We want things happening fast, right? We are not even going to happen that way. Yes, we are in a culture where things need to move. We want things to move quickly. And trust is not a quick thing to establish. You've got to have a rapport with a person over a period of time and experiences before that's established. And so it is often more simple and straightforward to have a grass top solution where an entity does a research, has a study, identifies a problem or a gap, and then proposes a solution based on best-so-class practices, right? But the piece that's missing is that alignment with the people that they're serving. And that's a very, very, very important piece. Huge piece, I've seen this over and over when working in between communities and let's just say corporations. But here's the thing, you say it takes time and it does take time. But the thing is, is if you don't take that time, you're going to get it in the back end, you'll get community put back, you'll get the lawyers loyering up, you'll get the different advocacy groups coming down to you and they're more sophisticated these days. So, you know, not doing that upfront work is actually going to create more work on the back end. Awesome. Right? And the solution won't be effective, right? You'll spend all the time going through all the set for, get you loyering up, etc, going through this. And then find that the solution doesn't work. We see this all the time. I know affordability is something that we talk about often. And one of the most recent studies that shows that that only 6% of the billing solutions that already exist are being used. Right? So there's a whole lot. That's really great. And that's what happens when you have grass ops without the engagement. Got it. Okay. Wow. That's a, that's a real, I've never heard that statistic. I'm going to have to sit with that one, right? Because that makes sense. We have these a variety of solutions. We're not activating them. And therefore, we're having the same exact experiences. I'll say exactly what we're in. Right. What is in your, in your experience, one of the biggest misconceptions that utilities or institutions have about community engagement, right? And what do you wish they understood instead? Sometimes people forget that lived experience are a lot for people. Right. If the only relationship you've ever had with someone has been contentious, even if you have the best of intentions when you go into a conversation, it may not be successful the first time. Right? You're going to have to listen a lot and do some work to build a rapport. Right? I think also another misconception that always has to be serious. You go so far. We're humans. We're wired for food, fun, connection, like go to a community event and have a lot of fun and build that like that can go really far. It doesn't have to be hard. Right? I think there's this notion that that community engagement needs to be serious and hard and we're going to go in and we're going to do our thing and leave. And it really doesn't need to be if you form connection, forming connection really is that basis that makes things work. So focus on that instead of the outcome. Right? Yeah. I really love that because it brings it to a human level. Right? You're just you're another person on the planet. Right? You might have a high level jobs over here, but actually we're just you when you're at an events, right? Community events and you come that way maybe in your in your genes, right? And you just relate on that level. Listening, even though you can't implement everything all the time. Listening goes so far. You know, really listening and you know, taking it in. So that's really important. And then don't and then just lighten up. It doesn't have to be so serious. Yeah. Which brings me to that. You've seen how intimidating, right? Public processes can be hearings, right? Docents, testimony. What role do these informal relationship spaces play in preparing people to participate meaningfully in that? Right? It feels like that could be a precursor, right? To when you have to get into right into the council meeting or what have you. On your percent. No, you're your spot on Carolina. These informal interactions really can make people feel more comfortable because instead of walking into a room full of people that they've never met before, speaking about a topic that they're unfamiliar with, it is now people that with whom they've interacted, right? They've at least seen them around. They're not as uncomfortable. The topics have been discussed at least informally. So there's not this unfamiliar elements where people can feel a little bit more confident about their position and understand what they have to offer. And it creates a sense of mutual respect, right? What that power dynamic has been shifted when you've been able to interact with someone before walking into this really formal intimidating sense. Where you might have you dukes up about something, right? Exactly. So if you do happen to disagree, you're seeing that person as a human who disagrees with you versus this entity with whom you must battle out and fight, right? Yes. Yes. You know, I've seen situations where both sides have put protections around themselves. Yes. They don't, I've seen this, and they don't want to connect not just the institution, let's say the utility, but even the advocacy groups, right, these days, they're like, they create that separation because I guess when you get to on a human level, then you have to be human. So I just want to call that out because it does happen. And it's like, where are you? We want to erode some of that too so that there can be more meaningful dialogue and solutions. Do you agree with that? I do. So another one of the hats I wear of a train mediator and call it like to resolution is not something that's really taught. Like, we are, we're not taught how to disagree with someone and then communicate through that, you know, the people tend either just really clash where they just blow it up. It's just all the same. Or they they flee, right? Is that fight or flight, right? But it's difficult to train someone or to get someone to be like to just express themselves and then sit with it, you know, and to own, hey, yes, I may, I did this thing that created this conflict. I contributed to it. So I think accountability is another component that really, really, it breaks down those barriers, right? When someone is willing to say to voice, this is how I feel. This is what you've done. This is what the action that you took, how it impacted me. And that person is willing to sit in that discomfort. And then arrives at a place where they're like, yes, I did that and own it, right? Not defended, just own it straight up. That does wonders. It really does. I have never seen that kind of training in my days and that in the energy. space and there might be out there right but getting that kind of training to be able to sit in the difficult, be in a difficult conversation right without a defended action or way or even attitude. It's so needed. You need to do that Mary in. Pull out that because that alone can change you. Or can help change. Right. The core offerings of new value. Okay. Offer that restorative justice can put like that that that approach of restorative justice where we're not just community engagement right in the in the traditional sense but community mediators and community builders to build that bridge like you said and train people on how to resolve that conflicts that we can come to better public services for everybody. Yeah. So you I mean restorative justice is an important part of your work. So why not just like what is that right what is and what does that look like in practical and we we actually named one way right is having that kind of but like how does that really play itself out and how could it reinforce structural or procedural justice. Yeah. So it's a question. So restorative justice and I'll actually back it up a little bit to look at at the different types of of energy equity and justice. So there's some justices call for tribusional justice are really about who's wrong who's right and punishment right they're very much on like very strict abstract you broke the law this is what you need what the punishment is right. That's not the idea behind restorative justice restorative justice is that that repairing the relationship that was broken between the entities right so far. That's good. Yes and it can be very very powerful very powerful. So while there is a right and a wrong that is not the core that you're looking at what you're looking at is how can we relate to one another to resolve this conflict that has been created. So in the energy space for example I'll point it back to the energy space. Was a lot of the transmission and distribution you know deployment that was done and done without any regard to the communities that live there. Absolutely right. Did that have negates? Did some of the sighting of our generation are especially our power plants that are super polluting have negative impacts on communities especially disproportionately communities of color and low income 100% the restorative justice takes those that and instead of saying okay therefore you owe this or whatever it says okay what broke there right. How did that system how did those decisions come to be and how can we not make those decisions anymore right. And how can you hear sitting that discomfort like you listened to said earlier how can we sit in that discomfort to hear the stories of those that have been impacted so that you can really understand hey you know you I've got to take some accountability for what's happened before and I've got to change that and I've got to change my dynamic with my my customers and my community right. So there's a lot of utilities that are really starting to lean into it and public service providers. I feel like smudged an awesome example I always love to use smudged as an example. They are but they just had their annual I love shy low yes I love and Jose Brandi will be but yeah they recently had their sustainable communities partnership summit right and where they emphasis on annual like this has been an ongoing this is an example of how like they have decided to be rooted in the communities where they are and they're sponsoring like education right STEM education and and hosting learn and save with the food banks right like they're really leaning into the relationships that they have with their communities and those events they're listening right they're listening to how what they've done before and how they can improve and what they can do better right okay I think the city of Houston's another really good example um you know they have a response and recovery resilience committee um and they are really really about moving at the speed of trust in fact they they call it the build for good approach where they say that the path for success is built on collaborating right listening first and moving at that speed of trust so restorative justice looks like really centering an approach where the process is and solutions that you're building only go as fast as your relationships can go right and they honor the relationship okay above everything else that's the speed of trust that we're talking about I've never heard that term I love it okay let's turn the tables a little bit right so we've been talking about what institutions or utilities can do better right but what can those communities do better what do you think the biggest misconception they have or some have and what do you wish they understood better you know I don't know if it's a community doing better if it's our education education's big so okay so big and I say that because I have been again I alluded to this earlier I used to sit go to public hearings all the time and I was the one who worked for australian energy and heard comments from the public right um and very often a very high percentage of time the comments that were addressed to me were not relevant to anything that I did at all they weren't relevant to an energy they weren't relevant to to the the conversation we were having and it can be frustrating when you're in that when you're a person in that position because we are all humans um to be patient to hear hours after hours of of genuine complaints that do need to be addressed but have nothing to do with you and you're fielding this this anger and aggression um and so that's why education is really important just so that people understand who does what who does what so I remember very vividly I went to a we were at council hearing and and and I was and there was a gentleman who was complaining about the mayor the and the mayoral election coming up and they were very upset about property taxes going up and they were very upset about their social security right and why I sat and I listened um patiently and quietly and as soon as he finished I was like um I hear your concerns just wants to point out however property taxes are the county tax assessor right that's their job um social securities on federal level that's congress so while we hear you all of in in how upset you are with the mayor about these genuine and problems the mayor isn't the person to fix that right that that's totally outside of their jurisdiction so that's that's what I mean when I say talking to the right person like they get very it's getting really upset but that person has nothing to do with the problem and the other part of it is you know sometimes in hearings and I get it be where you're upset you've been bottling it in for a long time you finally have a chance to hear your voice heard given depending on the circumstance you may have had to get child care and take a bus across town so you're ready to say everything that that is on your your heart right you're ready because this may be one of the only chances you get to participate in a public forum like this um and so I've experienced individuals just sharing everything and so I think those two things if the if helping communities which is something I felt very proud very passionately about and we'll be focusing all with you by you understand is this the correct audience and how do I really communicate relevant timely feedback so that everything that I'm saying in this in this hearing can be used for the purpose of decision making okay yeah so I hear like know your audience who you're talking what's on the table right now and how to be succinct about it to have the impact you're going for right yes right so Mary as you look toward 2026 right here we are what themes are merging in your work that feel most urgent definitely coming home like I mentioned earlier, really looking at local issues, right? I think that the change starts locally. And I know that I don't know who ever started it, but there's an act locally, think globally is the very big news. - That's my other book, "The Tiger." Okay. - Exactly, and it's true. So really, I think the theme of like deep, meaningful impacts, like less work, but more deeper, impactful work. It's really important in this region. And also, again, I'm really leaning into restorative justice. I think that, you know, I have been in this work for a long time and I really want to elevate others. I want to elevate others and I want to repair, repair relationships so that there's not a small contingency of people advocating on behalf of the whole, but that people are educated and have access to systems so that they can create solutions that resonate with them. That is really important. - So coming back around, like, how can people find out more about New Bio and your work? - Oh, so the website is under development. So right now, I'm really urging people to connect, Bob LinkedIn. I'm really excited to roll out some new things in 2026. And I would love to talk more about restorative justice and share some of the work that's coming out. So the link will be in the, what do you call them? - In our show notes. - Yeah. - The show notes, okay. But find my LinkedIn in the show notes and very, very shortly. You will see lots of new collateral coming out our website, our LinkedIn pages, things of that nature. So, okay. Fantastic. So if this conversation, speaking to you, all of you, if this conversation resonated with you, especially if you work inside of a utility or a city or the regulatory system, I invite you to sit with two questions. Number one, where does engagement in your work live at the grass tops or the grass roots? Be honest. Where does it live right now? And number two, as we enter 2026, what one step can you take to listen more before you design to build relationships with the people who are affected most before you launch? What's that one step? Mary gave you lots of them today, right? On the show. So what is that one thing that resonated with you? I would love if you would put that in our comments. So we can all get inspired on how we can all step up our game. And if you haven't already, I'm gonna ask you, please subscribe to Just Power. It keeps the very core piece of affordability, equity, reliability at the core of the show. So thank you so much for considering that. And as always, no, we are all in this together.