Grant Brown | 8090 Industries

[Music] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of fun raising. My name is Matt Vogels and I am asking all the questions that you as fun raising founders have to some of the best top early stage VCs in the business and today I have the one and only Grant Brown industrialist at 80 90 that's going to go through the ringer and we might have some spicy ones that we'll add in today so stay tuned through all of these but let's start Grant with a little bit about yourself a little bit about 80 90 what do folks need to know about you in 80 90 as they go into the fundraising process. Absolutely thanks for thanks for having me on so 80 90 industries about a five year old firm early stage industrial deep tech we're focused on hardware specific innovation and the industrial base so that's everything from energy manufacturing aerospace defense robotics logistics transportation aviation. All the good stuff our team is predominantly infrastructure hardware heavy industry experts were a team of about nine just about 300 million in a U.M. just over I think we have 51 portfolio companies as of this recording and continuing to grow a lot of I appreciate what is the average check size and like you say to the companies you guys are investing in. Yeah so we're typically precede seed and a little bit of series a check sizes can be very dynamic so from K to 5 million typically at entry and we have a very hungry and forward thinking LP base a backer so we're very very active throughout the life of investments through s pbs and continuity vehicles so that that's typically us great answer I love it we're big fans of 80 90 here at a heartbeat in black flag. So I'm very excited to go through this with you okay so the way that we're going to format this today for all listens out there we do a little bit of an introduction rapid fire introduction to get to know more about grant then we'll go into what I like to call the three stages of fundraising on getting the room you have an idea you have a startup idea how you actually get into that first meeting with some of these vcs second step you got the meeting how do you crush the initial meeting how do you make it so that you're your memorable and they want to have another meeting and then obviously. Continue the process the last phase of the fundraising process sometimes the hardest also the one that people I feel know the least about because it's rare to get there how do you close out the round how do you make it through that final gauntlet and actually get the check and then maybe we'll talk a little bit about what happens next after that because a lot of founders are unaware of maybe what the process looks like immediately after you close that round but let's start with you grant question number one why did you get into vc and what were you doing right before you got an adventure. Yeah so I got into vc not knowing anything about about vc I started my career in the oil field worked field operations and tech services the pipeline industry worked on baskets and projects in Texas Louisiana both on shore offshore to projects in Pennsylvania and New York and New Jersey software's hand what big time infrastructure looks like and chase the itch of curiosity into some different roles within the industry so did the short stint commodity trading and commercial ops helping traders move gas. Primarily around the United States and customers work heavily heavily with utilities and then chase the itch of curiosity into a team that became New Energy Ventures we join that team when it was about six seven people that organization at my last employer scaled to close to 40 people built for business units and incubated a CVC and the CVC was very I'll speak Silicon Valley here we first principle VC by finding technologies that changed the future of the industry. And what we found was these companies were the best partner we have thousands of miles of real estate and hundreds of thousands of acres and we operate some of the largest infrastructure systems in the world so we're an ideal pilot partner but these companies need to raise every 18 to 24 months and so in a past life we we wanted to tip the scales and keep those companies alive and and humming and so built a CVC to support that effort you know didn't know anything about VC before before this besides sharp and so and so ran that CVC for a couple of years before joining 80 90 and that the primary reason was to touch other parts of the industrial base outside of midstream natural gas into things like cement steel aerospace defense and try to reshape the way industry operates so that's that's how I got into VC totally God's plan there but I I am absolutely in love with the process and in the folks that we get to we get to work with on a day to day basis. What a time to be doing what we do what is what is your favorite part about the job in being a VC and then flip it a little bit what's your least favorite part about being a VC. Yeah so so I'll start with my favorite my favorite is founders you get to meet folks that are 100% heads down fully convicted on a mission that they believe is the most important mission in the world now as a VC you recognize that there are hundreds of valiant missions out there but interfacing with founders who have the utmost belief in themselves and their teams to solve critical problems and being maniacally focused on things that the general public overlooks that is my favorite part my least favorite part founders out there we're fundraising to we fundraise every few years and fundraising is a perpetual motion and so I think it's a necessary part of the job but it does feel like fundraising you know if I could be sitting with a precede founder that wants to change the world or convincing people as a surrogate that that founder is worth allocating capital to I love getting my hands dirty and building but the founders certainly make that part of my job that I don't love that much easier because they are so tremendous in their endeavors. One of the other questions that similar to what you just said was what is something that founders don't or should know about being a VC and you mentioned the fundraising piece I think that's going to be very common answer are there any other things or do you want to tackle that one again yeah I mean it kind of ties into what is another one of my least favorite parts of the job that is a reality is that we can't fund everyone and there are the way you structure a portfolio the way you look at areas of most need a lot of that is perception across a team and so building strong relationships with multiple team members across the venture platform is incredibly important is it allows for you to have multiple advocates under the same umbrella but also understanding that VCs that pass are not always it's not always all they don't believe in the pitch or they don't believe in you if you need the motivation take it right I'm okay with that but you know the reason for past can be numerous much of which is is probably outside of your control and it's just one of the parts of dealing with venture firms primarily those that are not the multi stage big firms who technically you know do have the capacity to fund almost everyone if they would like to that something I think founders should know as well from our side that's a great answer lastly on the introduction about you what are one or two sectors that you are more excited about than than others right now is there anyone that standing out yeah I mean I think there's two that are incredibly important and critical that are just starting to come into their own one of which is pretty obvious right like energy begets everything both intermittent and base load the ability to produce electrons to support reshoring on shoring is critically important for us what we're seeing is going all the way to the asset deployment and the selling of electron is incredibly valuable from the venture space towards spending a lot of time there I would say also like the base layer and this is not a software perspective but the base layer for manufacturing and re industrialization is incredibly important so not only is your logo on the aircraft that's going to the DOW but all of the components that feed into that there's a tidal wave of key suppliers and critical component manufacturers to be built to support the next generation of industry that are incredibly important and it takes investors who are deep in the hardware game to be able to see around those corners and understand who are the future critical suppliers of the industrial base that may never have their logo on a really cool piece of equipment. Yep that's a good one all right one quick hot take in here on the whole fundraising process itself is there any advice that you hear on the Vc side that you're either hearing Vc say or that founders are telling you they're getting advice from that you think is just flat out wrong so common piece of advice that other founders are fundraising founders are getting that you think is flat out wrong I think advice around the strategy of the business from an investor take with the grain of salt now as an investor like I have perceptions from a few pitches or from your room of what I think might be an interesting way to grow your business align strategy and execute but following the intuition of your investor who has spent the order of tens of hours with you and your company versus you who have put thousands of hours these points are not intended to change the strategy of the company they are intended to demonstrate that we are proactively thinking about ways to grow your business and so it's a positive signal that they have thoughts and they're invested without fiduciary investment but they are not at all intended for you to change course It's true it's good advice because I think that founders end up taking feedback from investors to heart as if it's the it's the only thing that matters and that's not always true. - Always true. - Okay. - Yeah. - Now to the fun part, the fun raising part. Again, we're splitting it into the three sections, getting the room, crush the meeting, and then close out the round. So question one, on getting in the room, what should founders be looking for? So before they've even started, you know, cold messaging investors or what not, trying to find them on the streets, what should they be looking for for the right investor in the process? You know, stage focus size. What are some of the things that you think founders should be filtering for? I would, there's a few things I would filter for. First of all, know our portfolio. And some of that is on the website. Some of that is not right. So that's everything to LinkedIn X activity. Being able to understand what is in the portfolio, both for competitors, right? But also for folks that are investing in sectors that are adjacent. One step beyond that is talking with founders within that portfolio about their experience with that VC. And again, these are not decisions to make your allocation, you know, sequence accordingly, but it gives you a really good understanding of like, what are their competencies? What are they good at? What's been your experience working with them? You know, headaches, big wins, all the above. I think that is the single most important thing that a founder can do before making contact, is having an understanding very quickly. Who are folks that I know that are in the portfolio? Who's in the portfolio? And then from the mission, do we fit within the mission? It's a topic that they haven't already covered. Yeah, I think we can note on that to set expectations too, because I've been a founder before and attached to emails where it's like, hey, can you, I still get dozens a month of, hey, you know, you were invested by this founder, you know, fund, can you tell me about it? Let's get 30 minutes to talk about it. Don't feel bad. If the founders do not respond, and don't let that reflect anything related to the fund or anything like that, it's just everybody's busy. But I agree, if you can talk to the founders, even just researching them, a lot of times founders have said stuff online as well. There's a good, a good nugget of information there. All right. What is the best way for founders to get their pitch in front of you? So not VCs in general, but how do they get a pitch in front of Grant Brown? Warm founder intros. I mean, that'll probably be a common answer, but it is 100% true. We have a number of founders in the portfolio that are well network that send us interesting companies all the time. Aaron Slada from Atomic, Ted Feldman from Durham, Dan Wright from Armada, are pushing through interesting founders that they meet at events or that they know from a past life. That is the easiest way to get on the calendar. And so I would say having not been a founder, I would imagine if you run in the same circles with people and are non-competitive, building those relationships for both how you run the operation that you're building, but also for introductions and insight into the investor landscape. I think is incredibly important. That is the fastest way for me to respond and get you on calendar is if somebody like Aaron, Ted or Dan says, "Hey, these guys are really special. They're for building something cool." I love that. So let's say that the introduction is made. What are you looking for in those initial pitches or emails? Is it just that they were introduced to you? And that's enough. Or is there an additional thing you're looking for like traction? Do they need to be at a certain phase or stage or anything like that? Or if they're introduced from another founder, are they going to get on the calendar? Yeah, I think Daniel from 1517 said this really incredibly. We're looking for hyperfluency. And that is the ability to speak in-depth or for a fifth grader on technology, commercial go-to-market, the vision of the business, the execution and operation, the ability to for any audience relay your message seamlessly. And as you go through the course of diligence with VCs, go from very high level to very granular. I think that is something that very quickly we look for, because not only are you going to have to build a generational business and recruit new investors, but you have to recruit new talent. And you have to align the vision, which is ever changing, again and again and again through many iteration cycles. And so the ability to be able to communicate and hold a consistent vision at a high level, at a low level, I think is incredibly important. So I would say that's one thing that we look for in the early days. And from the first call, you can kind of have an understanding of the level there. I would say on credibility and 20 years in industry, I think that is not what we look for compared to other firms. I think in the information age, there's a lot of opportunity for young people to get up to speed very, very fast. And have an understanding and a domain expertise well ahead of what maybe legacy legacy experience would be. And so yeah, I would say that demonstrating hyperfluency and the ability to talk 360 around the problem is incredibly important. And then some of this is an art and not a science, but to feel the conviction of the founder. And that does not have to mean, you know, William Wallace, Brash and Bravado, but that can look a number of different ways. But if we're going to get in the fight with you as an investor or watch you fly, I don't want to oversell too much what we do. We want to know that you're in it to win it and that you have kind of a 360 competency of what you're doing. That was a little more long way to answer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is this is a common question that we got from founders? What is the single most important slide in the pitch deck? And what is the least important? And is there one of each? But in your opinion, what is the most important slide? Was the least most important slide? I would say the most important slide is the conversation that happens before the slide opens. The ability to interface with a new person and an investor in relay your conviction is incredibly important. Obviously, your mission statement and then your tactical plan for how you engage, you know, six months from raised, 12 months from raised, five years down the road, and having that be seamless and not jumbled, I think is incredibly important to know that you're planning for the future. And again, things always change and we're not going to hold you to account for that plan on the initial pitch. But knowing that you're thinking about things both near term and long term is important, the least important is the market, the market analysis. I don't want to, I don't care. I need a hot take. I need a hot take. That might be a hot take. I don't care about Tam, especially in spaces that are incredibly well known. I don't need a Tam. I want to know what is your entry point and how are you going to be the LeBron James of making that market entry? I think Teal said this too and I think it's true. Learning to dominate in your beach head and or small markets teaches you to dominate big markets. And so I'm a huge believer that like being fanatical about what is your SO or what are the acronyms being fanatical about what that is. I can think through, okay, this could be you could have applications here or there, but these big like that, you know, the chart, some Sam, Tam. I don't ever want to see those anymore because, you know, it's it's over. They're also kind of made up anyway. Yeah, 100% weird ones. How many pitches have I looked at that are in the same industry that I see different numbers there? And I'm like, and how many McKinsey Ansel analysts are getting paid here to come up with completely different numbers? So that's a hot take. But hopefully it saves time, right? Like, you know the market because you committed your life to build this company. We know the market because we are supposed to know the market to be able to figure out where technology fits in. And so, I wouldn't waste a bunch of extra time making that pretty when I really want to know how are you going to execute? What is it that makes you guys unique and what is the credibility of the team to do it? Like that. So maybe the most important slide. I like to call it the vision slide. It's the slide that can articulate how you get from point A to point B and C and perhaps beyond least important slide, which again, I think might be a hot take is market and tam. So I like it. But if you do your job in the first one, you don't need it. Yep. Yep. Cool. All right. Let's say they've crushed it. They got a meeting on the books with Grant. How do they crush the initial meeting? What are the things in that first meeting that you are looking for with the founder? Yeah, I would say a kind of hit on it earlier, but conviction and what you're doing, a competency of the space that you're attacking, both from the point of entry and the ability to grow. And then the credibility of the team that will never show up on a pitch meeting. And I love when founders put on their engineering staff. And I say, look, he's our chief engineer. I will probably not meet him until the investment is made, but being able to boost and talk through your team that's going to execute and make this happen. I think those are things that stand out immediately that, you know, I'm not just investing in a founding team, but I'm investing in a team because that is a huge risk that we have to underwrite is if the founding team is incredible, but their ability to amass talent is at all a risk. We think through that plus I think it's just good business. I think it's good business for leaders of teams to understand the skills and capabilities of their entire team. And obviously that can't happen in a thousand person organizations, but you're not that. All right. So you just mentioned some key green flags, things that you look for. Those are all great. What is a red flag that you catch in these initial meetings and those early stages with a founder that just sends you running for the hills? I hate, you know, look, fundraising is incredibly hard, right? So I want to preface by saying, like, if you are a founder, I have tremendous respect for you. It is probably the hardest thing professionally to do. One thing that sometimes gives me pause is when the CEO doesn't do the most talking. Maybe it's a chief commercial, grow business, somebody that's used to pitching, it is a little bit of an alarm bell for us because the CEO is the tip of the spear. They will drive the vision and execution of the company. At 80-90, we don't like regime change. I want to know that the CEO and founder or co-founder and CEO is able to ring the bell at the stock exchange and IPO and build a generational business. I think that's incredibly important. If you are a team that is pitching VCs, make sure that whoever is in that seat is ready to do a lot of the talking and the interfacing and then obviously pull in your team as the tech gets more granular and subsequent diligence calls. Obviously defer that to the CTO. But having a strong tip of the spear is incredibly important. If that is not present in the early pitches that is a bit of an alarm for 80-90, there are other VCs who love regime change. We don't. That ends up being, that can be a roadblock in some pitches. So the other thing that we like to ask is on the founder side, it's an interview that goes both ways. Are there questions that founders should be asking in those initial interviews or those initial meetings to the investors? Is that a red flag? Is that something they should be doing? Not a red flag at all. This is a two-way interview and I think establishing the viability and credibility of your investors for what you need them to be. You do not need an investor that is going to meddle in your business. So don't look for that in the Q&A. A common question that comes up is what is your process? I think that's a good question. But I think a better question is when can I talk to you next? I think that is incredibly important. Beyond that, another question is when can I meet the GP or the IC? And I think those are more pointed and get you where the root of the question, what is your process is intended to get you at VCs if you're talking to an associate and investor or a principal VP. You want to know who's on the IC and how quickly can I talk to them? Because they will make a decision one way or another and that's certainly the case at 8090. No who holds the pen on underwriting your investment. And I think saying when can I talk to you next? And I got time tomorrow, the next day, making that imminent to keep momentum is incredibly important because we are taking pitches all the time. Now I'm not taking as many pitches as boost VC likes to brag on X about but we are taking lots of pitches and keeping the momentum in my head. We just had a great call. I'm going to do a little bit of research, but I don't need a week to do that. I don't need a month to do that. So how do we keep the momentum going? So this continually stays top of mind from your champion and gets on the calendar of your check rider. Like that. That's good. Yeah. It's empowering to founders too. They can ask those questions. It's immense. I think a lot of the process. And I do think it's a good sign on VCs like hearing that. What is a common mistake that you see founders have during this phase of the process? So I would say everything from, you know, they got a meeting with you, but you haven't gone into diligence yet and they're still kind of in that early stage of the process. Is there any common mistake that you see founders do or something that you could tell founders right now? Like that's a no-no. Don't do that. I would be very thoughtful around how much money you want to raise and always the minimum. Right? Like if you want to raise 10 to 20 million, saying we're raising 10 and we have, you know, and maybe we can over-subscribe. I think that is the way to go for two reasons. One, you establish that it is on the smaller end of the round. And so allocations will be fewer. The second is if you say 10 to 20 or you target 20 and you're raising 10, that looks in effect like an L when it's not. Right? And so I think that's something that founders like think through strategically what you need to raise and how you message the raise because I think that ultimately in a game where optics should be not a part of the equation, they are. And so I think that's something that, you know, some of it is out of your control, but I think it's important to think through. So a lot of times what happens during this phase is that founders will ghost it isn't the right word, but this is where I think a lot of the fumbling happens on both accounts and both parties. What are some of the things that you want to prepare founders for that happen? Let's say the meeting is there. We don't have anything else on the books. Let's say what should you, what kind of advice should you give founders when that meeting is over and what can they prepare for because they have the meeting and now it's kind of an unknown. Any tips or tricks for them during that phase? If the meeting goes well, I would not leave the meeting unless there is at minimum, establish that we want to talk in the next few weeks. And I may be different, but for me, have my number or my signal so that you can text because things do get lost in inbox. And they move quick. And they do. So I think, and for me, I love being able to be in text communication. If the call went well, and I think it went well, and I try to be transparent, because I want to know if unnamed tier one fund is moving really fast because I want an allocation or in for our case, we typically want to lead, right? Like, I want to be able to know that like things are moving and know that at, you know, a couple of a couple of texts and not not get lost in an email. So I would say, not leaving the call without an established firm point of contact, not an email is important. And, you know, for there are going to be a lot of folks that you feel the call went well and they don't reciprocate or they have other things going on. I think not taking those to heart and bumping things in email or via text. I can't tell you how many things that, you know, I have a great call and it's on top of mine, but I'm doing other things and it's a couple days later. It's like, hey, bumping this. I do think that's incredibly valuable. That does translate for me. No, I love it. Okay. So we've gone through the process. Let's say that the round is taking form. You're interested. Other funds are interested. They're in the thick of it now. Can you give some high level advice or idea of what founders can expect with the diligence process or, you know, you said you're interested. What should founders know about what happens during that phase where funds are now interested and there's things happening all over the place? Yeah, I would say every funds process is different, but most funds are able to move at the speed of a round. If they're not, then there's a hole in, you know, the overall conviction. If a round is happening very, very quickly, and a fund is interested in getting in, they will get in. So I think that is like important to know. And on your case, how do you treat those processes? We, that's, you know, for the investment team that reports into the GPs and the investment committee, very quickly getting on the fund and saying, hey, this is a deal that is materializing very quickly. I want you to meet the founder and then preparing our materials accordingly. Now everyone's underwriting process is different, but the process accelerates when the pin is on the call. And so, you know, for us, like we've done as much as months of diligence and we've done as little as a couple of days because, you know, it's typically those couple of days, those are sectors that we have thought on long and hard, have established like studied the white space with no company present so that we can quickly put two into two and two together. But deals can happen fast, especially when there's impetus. And so, you know, as you're putting together around and you have things accelerating, being transparent with others and trying to build the best syndicate. And I think establishing that before you raise is incredibly important. Like, do you have a bunch of pre-seed investors and you're okay with more of a consolidated round at seed? Or do you want breadth? Or if you're a dual-use technology, do you want somebody that's more commercial sector, somebody that's more defense oriented in your round? I think establishing that earlier makes like the chaos less chaotic. And then once you're in, I think establishing what the perfect round is for you and always aligning to that true north, that's the best thing that you can do when you get caught in the kitchen. Oh, I thought. What is the, what's a common mistake that you see founders make during the closing part of their round? Yeah, anything that stands out is something that they, they don't do well when it's when it's coming together. I think at that point, it's really in the founders court, particularly if you're going to oversubscribed or running the risk of oversubscribing. I'm not in a position to tell founders like, hey, you did that poorly. It's like if you kick us out, it was your prerogative, it's your company. You had great investors, you had a ton of interest, we could have done something better in our process. That one, I probably like abstain from answering, right? Like, there is no wrong way to wrap up your round. So long as you have a lead that you built a relationship with and are comfortable with and you have folks that are willing to come in at the mark that that lead is setting. And you had you had a good point there. If you are oversubscribed and you're busy, what are some of the traits that a founder should be looking at for the funds that they do let in? If they are going to be oversubscribed, what do they need to bring in? I think the historical track record of the fund is important. My personal opinion is that having, if you have the opportunity, solidified tier one name, you know, is important. Emerging managers will say, no, they're not going to give you any time and we're going to give you all the time. But that big name can matter as you continue to raise rounds and they obviously have deep pockets to continue to support the business. You know, my personal opinion is a good blend of those two emerging managers who although not on your board are going to help you network and contextualize and they'll pick up the phone immediately when you call with some tier ones who have tell us on the wall is important and one thing I think is underappreciated is the strategic angel. Even in the seed a folks that are not investing from a funder but are investing personally that are either ex-founders, current founders, those folks are incredibly helpful and those allocations if I were a founder I would preserve because I think they're worth their weight in gold. In a lot of ways their hands are less tied than VCs and they can provide all of the strategic impact you need particularly if they're ex-founders they understand your plight better than many VCs which again probably a hot take but like am I going to understand your plight better than Palmer Lucky? No and I can know everything about the business but that guy has done it before and knows people you know across the industry and so I think having strategic angels at any level is incredibly important even if they're small dollars. We're in the final phase let's say we close the round everything is great let's talk a little bit about what happens right after you close the round because a lot of founders never even get to that level. So there's a peak behind the wall here what should founders think of with the relationship with the investors after they raise they get the check what should the expectation be with that relationship with the investors that are in? Yeah I mean I think the expectation of investors should always I'll talk from the perspective of an investor. My job is to have arrows in the quiver that when called upon are helpful for you. My job is not to interject and change strategy of a business that is growing but to be available for resources connections that I may build on the side many of which founders will never know and I think that's that should be the relationship between especially like on the board type of investor and so I think for founders understanding that that you may bring folks on your board be very selective about who you bring on your board and their track record as board members but your investors at times will be in the heat of battle with you but those will be very few in far between and if they're good investors at your election. So preparing that you're still running your business and you have this capital infusion and for investors like 8090 that have strategic connections within the sector that you're pursuing. Using those efficiently and effectively and in times of great need I think are awesome. You know investors want to be in the know and we want to know before something is going to be announced through PR Newswire or we want to know if a certain part of the business is struggling because we're talking about these companies to peers RLP's and so being able to have line of sight there is incredibly important so to quarterly or monthly report out from the CEO are great situational awareness for us but I would be as a founder very ready to run business as usual and know what your investors can bring to the table or have a track record of doing for strategic interjection at your election and be very thoughtful around when that is you know for me you know I love being in the trenches with our founders all the time is that the most helpful and do sometimes what I bring up a boondoggle for all the 10,000 things they're juggling yes so if there is something strategically just know that investors are building the quiver to hopefully be catalytic or helpful at any time but it's still your business to run and we trust you to run it better than we trust ourselves otherwise you know we wouldn't have we wouldn't have invested. Yeah that's a great answer let's say that you have the founders raise you've seen a lot of founders that get their first checks in seed rounds closed what's a common mistake do you see founders do immediately after the raise or shortly after that's a great question we don't invest in a lot of the by-a-lamborghini and go to Vegas with the seed round guys it just we don't do it I don't have sometimes yeah I don't have any problem with those that do we don't but I think post-raise is a continuity of pre-raise which is we have these milestones we want to hit this capital is catalytic but we want to be judicious around where that goes but the intention of venture capital and I think Catherine Boyle says this best right the intention of venture capital money is for you to spend it and come back to us when you need more and it's your job is the founder to make sure that like you're not being cautious with the money or having a scarcity mindset but really accelerating your development I do see founders sometimes like you know say they're going to build team raise money and then hiring is very slow I think a higher fast fire faster like bring in the team to accelerate the mission to get more done and I think having a pipeline of that although it's incredibly complicated during a time of fundraise having a pipeline of folks that are when we get the money and they're signing their offer and coming I think that is incredibly judicious and something that the best founders do that's great long term so as the company continues to develop and grow you've probably seen a lot of companies fail hopefully not that many but what is the most common reason that you see founders companies not make it to the to the ultimate finish line probably two things one is like you're going to get this a lot but like the founding team lack of alignment and so that happens and that's okay people are people as things materialize their disagreements I think that is a fracturing that comes with being a multi co-founder team now my ears are hot take I'll just take an aside I wish there were more founding teams of three plus I do I mean you look at and a role right like any one of those gentlemen could have gone and started their own company it's the fact that they decided to band together that is built the circle of competency upon which and a role has changed the game and so I think you know the downside of having multiple co-founders is like okay well there's more opportunities for fracture that said there's also greater opportunity of success because you're stacking people together and so I think that's one thing the other um was that question again the the kind of reason for startups in general fail yeah I would say at series a we're seeing this like Valley of Death getting to series a with no product is incredibly challenging and this is this may appear dumb but like making a non economic MVP that physically works in the hardware space prior to series a is important and it may be waste a perceived waste of time or waste of resources but having something demonstrable at a is important if you do not things get very very challenging especially for as you start entering into like depending on size of the round like the gross and growth investment community and so those are two things right like fractures within the founding team some of that like you try to scope out as best you can early but is a part of a part of the game the other being like not a thoughtful strategy about what not may not be sure the fastest way between point A and point B is a straight line but if you have to stop for gas between there how are you doing that to justify point A to to be that's it's basically yeah running out of capital momentum before your next raise so if you don't achieve the milestone you get to that next milestone and you can't fundraise off of it because you haven't gotten there yet that's that's going to happen and it's common and there are ways to fundraise out of it but I agree that's a tough one. I wrapping up here thank you for for all the insight here I think that again founders are going to appreciate a little bit of a peek behind the curtain where can founders learn more about you learn more about 80 90 how can they get more involved and follow what you guys are doing yeah I mean I think stay tapped into our socials 80 90 does a great job of we do not have an 80 90 branded active ex account but the members of our team do and so I think staying tapped in there is incredibly informative obviously LinkedIn ran puts out some good stuff on LinkedIn so keep track of us there and then we look we're trying to be at least in the US and all the major hubs I'm based in Texas but I'm in Southern California Northern California New York Detroit DC we're trying to be out there so look you can find us anywhere the better question is like how do we find you and that's yeah that is the game right like I if you're building something generational and it's your life's passion I want to find you so if you can help me find you please so yeah that you know find us on socials I'm pretty quick to transition things as much as I can into the text I'm a big texture so text is easy I got a lot going on you got a lot going on so yeah I hope that this is helpful for the founders I hope this gives a little bit of a peek behind the curtain and I hope that this is a vessel to me some of the greatest you know execution mines on the planet so cheers to that all right Grant thank you buddy have a good one yep have a good one man