Gracie & Will Blackmon on Pro Football, Winning a Super Bowl, & Surviving the NFL

How do you not get a single call after playing in the biggest game of your life? Because people looked at my injury history, and they were like, he's a liability. They were like, he is damaged goods. We don't want that. He's a Boston college Hall of Famer, a 12 year NFL vet and Super Bowl 46 champion with the New York Giants. But after spending over a decade in the league, he's rewritten his own script on what life looked like after football. He is now a sports TV analyst, certified Smolier and founder of his own wine company, the wine MVP. Will Blackman, welcome to athletes after hours. What's happening? I forgot it was like driving in the beach life. I was like, I feel like I was back in Boston with all one ways and it was weird. I was going to an accident. It's okay. I know. I'm so glad you got here safely. I'm glad it was here and not like downtown LA. Right. And I would have had to politely decline. That's what I'm saying. A lot of people are so excited when they find out that I'm literally a blog from the beach. They're like, wait, I'm there. All good. Easy. All good. I'm so glad you could get on and I'm glad that we couldn't finally meet. I've heard so many amazing things about you. Obviously doing a little research. I'm like, wait, I got to meet this guy. He seems so cool. You've done an incredible job of transitioning out of your sport, which, which is a beast. We need to unpack. I mean, it's fucking hard. I have to say NFL literally hearing the stats about the transition out was one of the reasons I actually wanted to launch the podcast. Because I knew there wasn't there was an epidemic of identity crisis and depression and mental health struggles that came from transitioning out of their sport. And I knew I had a really tough battle with it. So I can't even imagine having it be your entire identity, your entire career and like relying on the income, you know, having your ego be built up as the way it was, like having your name on people's jerseys and then all of a sudden one day you wake up and you're like, a nobody. There's no jerseys. Somebody put tape on it and put my name. Wait, before we do that, though, we were talking because you went to J Sarah. I did. And we have a lot of mutual friends. We do, but this is, this is what tripped me out. Okay. So we both trained that sports lion's lab with Gavin down there in the basement. Yep. And you say you started training their win. 2011. And I was, okay, this is 13 years old. This is what's going to like, similarly, this is fucking me up. So I remember we had to do like the balance, right? the pipes. Oh my god. Fuck those things. But listen, I remember Gavin was saying like, yeah, the skateboarder, he said, but there's this one little gymnast and she's just skating up and down the hallways on the pipes. That was me. No, we used to go in, I'm telling you, we used to go in there and there was this little girl. It was like one gymnast. And she literally was standing. So we had these like PVC pipes over there, and it taught us to balance, right? And one of the workouts was you have to roll and then you had to like walk and drag them. And I swear it was like this little girl going up and down the hallway like it was nothing. That's crazy. I think that was me. That could be you because there was no one else. Well, because my school doesn't have a gymnastics team. Right. And so I didn't have to go to the one on cabinet that I went to one in Lake Forest and one in Costa Mesa. Okay. But no, they didn't have gymnastics team. They didn't even, I mean, when I signed to to UCLA, when I signed, well, technically I signed to ACO, but when I signed on National Signing Day, they didn't even like know that I was committed to a school. That's crazy. Unless you're a jacer athlete, they were like, oh, you do a sport. So Dante Pettus was there when you were there? Yes, he was. Yeah. We've had some pretty cool athletes come out of J Sarah. But yeah, it was just so funny that like I remember training there like it was yesterday and having the most insane workouts. So why were you there? We were straighter football. Oh, okay. Just watching people wipe out. No, because so I was looking into it. But when I got hurt, I end up, I came out here, remember what I fought here. And then so this is funny story. This is how I ended up at J Sarah. Right. So after one season, I, after the green base seasons, I would live in Miami. Yeah. And so I remember I was watching NFA Network and there was a video of Troy Polymolo doing like this ninja crazy like training. And I was like, yo, where the hell is that? And it was like, oh, Gab McMillan, whatever, California. Cool. So I was just watching it. And that was it. Oh, wow. So then fast forward, meet my wife who ends up being from Orange County. And when I came out here, we got invited to Carson Palmer. He had a golf tournament at the St. Regis, which is now Monarch. Yeah. And there was some dude there who was like, hey, where do you train? I was like, I'm just at 24 hour fitness. I don't have a place. He goes, there's two guys. There's Gavin McMillan, Marvin and Vitch. He was like one of those two guys. I was like, which one? He was like, you pick. So like Google Gavin and there's like this blonde Canadian dude doing a Tomahawk dunk. I was like, oh, go to this dude, right? I mean, if this is the advertisement, like, I'm in. And so I go to the place. I'm like, oh, shit, this is the place. This is legit. Yeah, look, this is the place, but not the jet because it's a dungeon. Oh, it is like, it's literally scary. No, we're those. Yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of spooky. I remember getting brought down there. And I was like, yeah, no windows. Oh, I'm going to be tortured. But anyhow, yes, piled had to be you. Small world. Anyhow, that's so wild. Yeah. I didn't mean to take your series. No, and flip it to like, wait a minute. No, that was crazy, though. I am still like processing it. Like, you definitely, well, we've been besties for a long time. I have my son doing all the footwork stuff. I have an ISO. It's so good. I have my own ISO. Your kid's so set up. Dude, tell me you. He's gonna be a freak. Yeah. I can't wait to hear about that, too, because like, raising an athlete versus being an athlete is probably such a whirlwind of a 180. It's crazy. Like, I'm really excited to hear about this. Well, let's start with you being drafted. I want to know what that experience was like for you because I feel like the process of being drafted is really stressful. Right. Well, then because the days were long as hell. Yeah. Now it's like, first round is one day, second and third. And then they break it up in today's, which is cool. Okay. But back then, it was like, the first day was like 10 hours. So it was crazy. You're just sitting on your couch with cameras on you for literally 10 hours straight. Yes. Well, night, well, I wasn't at the green room. I was at home. I stayed home because I wasn't going to be at early pick. I knew I thought second round would be the earliest. I ended up going fourth round. But it's just a long ass day. Yeah. And the one thing too, it's long when you're drafted later, but that's the worst part is you're watching people. You competed against and you're like, oh. And they're beating you or they're getting picked earlier than you and that was a tough part. Yeah. And it's hard to not like overanalyze to because I mean, obviously, there's a lot of politics that go into it. There's a lot of decisions that go into it. No question. But for you, when you were sitting there waiting to hear your name calls, it's tough. Why couldn't they just tell you before? Like, don't they already know? Well, here's the thing. They gave, they gave me a range. And my range is like two to five. So that's a big range. Oh my god. And depending on who picks who, who slot it where who has best board, but let alone that that day was still pretty cool because as a kid, I always like jumped about the NFL, you know, I was a die hard football fan like collected cards, collected jerseys, I used to write like, I used to write players penpal letters like I was nuts. You used to write letters to players, which is fun. I wrote one of Desmond Howard and I finally met him about a month ago. Yeah, he was out here for an event and I told him straight up, I was like, look, I know I'm a grown-ass man. I'm four years old. I used to write penpal letters to you, man. And he thought it was so cool. And he ended up being a fan of of me. And actually, I tied his record in Green Bay for most part returns. So full circle, full circle moment. But as a kid, I literally thought the NFL was impossible. Really? Yeah. Like it wasn't. It's like a fantasy land. For sure. Like it'll be cool, but I'm like, there's no way. When did it become a reality? I think when I became a, probably when I got to college, when I got to college, because things started happening for me, which I didn't think they were. Yeah. Because I was like, I was the type where I was a fan. I researched everything. I knew about this. I knew about, I knew about everything. I knew about all-star games, camps. All these things I thought it was cool. I used to get the magazines and I'm like, like it's not going to happen to me. There's no way. And then my brother was a student at Boston College. Okay. And you know, he knew for guys on the football team, his roommate was actually a graduate assistant. And the GA was like, Hey, I heard your son's pretty, your brother's pretty good at football. He was like, Oh, my little brother is like really good. So he said, Well, have him come to the camp. Wow. I told my dad about it. And my dad saved up a bunch of money so I can go to this camp. And I remember, I just like went off, had a really good camp. And then going into my sophomore year, I remember I got a letter saying thank you to all the kids. Thank you for coming to the camp. And then behind it was a letter that said, they offered me a scholarship. So like, out the gate. That's so casual. Oh, it was so like, what? Usually they call you. It's like this huge of official thing and like it was a cool letter. I think they couldn't because I wasn't old enough yet. - Wow. - I think you can't, I think if we get the rule back then, I think once you're in the sophomore year or something like that. - Yeah, I'm curious what is with football 'cause gymnastics we'd be offered seventh grade. - That's crazy. - Yeah. - You could commit literally in seventh grade. - So for me to not even get like, 'cause I didn't even know what college I was gonna go to, I was gonna go to a local community college. I didn't think of it like that. And then for that to be the first one. - And to be a scholarship. - From Rhode Island. - That's so wild. - Like from Providence, like that's like. - Yeah. - They're like, this kid must be like six, eight. I was like, no, five, nine. (laughing) 155. - You're like, but I'm good, I promise. - But I was funny, my coach, he put six, two, one, 90 on every tape. - No shit. - Yeah, it wasn't six, two, one, 90. (laughing) - You got 50 balls. - My son is, my son is now, that's what's crazy. - Period. - He's 15. - Manifested it. - Yeah, exactly, that's funny. That's funny. All that catfish and they'd off. - Oh my god, shit, I was as advertised though, it was good. - That's crazy. - So that's kind of when I was like, all right. I'm kind of entering a new, like stratosphere of the type of athletes. And then like, things started happening in terms of, I never thought I'd give, but if I did to the naked camp, naked used to be invite only. And then I got to invite to the naked camp. And then I got more invites to this. And then, then everything just went crazy. So, I think. - Do you think your belief came from other people? Because you kind of had that deep rooted belief that like, the NFL was untouchable. So then, as you got better and you progressed, like the white noise kind of almost broke that. - Yeah, I think, I think I was just always in the moment. - Okay, cool. - I love that. - I think that's the worst. Like I was truly. - Just grateful to be here. - I was truly grateful. I was such a fan. - Yeah. - And I just love playing football, period. And so this important here is, so when I was young, I was six, I lost my mother when I was six years old, and immediately I started playing football. So, but I always, I always love it in general. We had a football house, like we were into it. So that was kind of like, that was the one place where I legit had full control of what's going on, you know? 'Cause even after she passed away, we never, we never had a chance to grieve. Never had a chance to really talk about it. We, you know, my dad went to work, my siblings went to school, I went to school, and that was it, you know? Nevertheless, I had a great childhood, 'cause I didn't know any of the different, you know? - Yeah. - Like my dad worked all the time, but never missed a game, you know, so it was cool, but I think for me, that was the one place where I had complete control, and like had true enjoyment. - He was almost like an escape for you from that pain. - Yeah, I mean, I hate using the word "excait" because I wasn't trying to get away from reality. - Yeah. - You know, 'cause when I went home, I didn't go home, and I was like, you know, hid and cried all day, you know? Like I said, I had a cool childhood, even though it's funny, this is, you know, I haven't said to anybody, but I'm like, I started therapy just to, you know, learn more about myself and talk about it. - Yeah. When did you start therapy? - Probably a month ago. - Oh, this is recent. - This is recent, yeah, yeah, this is, because I'm the type where it's like therapy is kind of like taboo, it's like, man. - You kind of grew up in the era of therapy is like, you only go unless something's really wrong. - Unless you're like on edge, you know what I mean? And I'm not on edge, I just, I was just curious. You know, I never, we never talked about stuff. Not because my dad, because my dad was like, don't do it. We never just made time to do it. - Yeah. - You know, because we have a great relationship, we talk all the time about stuff and we, you know, share things, but it was interesting to like, hash and go back on my whole life. I was like, damn, I was in some like, fucked up situations, I didn't even know. - You're unpacking stuff that you kind of stuff down a long time ago. - That was normal, it was normal. You know what I'm saying? - And then you realize it's not normal and you're like, oh shit. - So again, to add, the reason I brought that up, I didn't like, hey, I'm on therapy, like everybody like, I'm not being an advocate for it. - No, you should be. I'm not really proud of you. - But I don't want to be an advocate for it. I'm just being transparent. Like this is because me doing that allowed me to go back and like kind of dig deep in what's going on. But also, my point was the reason I brought it up is because for football, again, with life, this is like, believe, are they enough? That was normal. Normal C for me was to go play football. - Yeah. - You know, if that made sense. And I said a lot. No, no, you're good. I think that's a really cool way of rediscovering who you are from a completely different perspective, especially a professional perspective. Because I think what you don't realize like, a lot of the stuff that you go through in your childhood does dictate who you are now. And how you cope with stress and how you are now a parent and how you parent your children. I think what's really cool is you don't want to ever project onto a child. And so healing your inner child is going to prevent that. - For sure. - And so that's really cool and really mature that you've recognized. Like, I'm just curious. I want to see how I can improve. And I think, again, that's how. - But you say curious, that's the biggest thing. - That's the biggest thing. - That's how you improve. But that's how you improve. Because you're constantly wondering where else can I grow? And I think that's what made you such an elite athlete. And what makes elite athletes elite athletes is because we are always curious for growth and always chasing the next thing to help improve ourselves. And for you, when you got into the NFL, you got drafted directly to the Green Bay Packers. Okay, how long were you at the Packers for? - Four years. - Okay, how was that? - You know what? It was funny because it literally was dreamy. - I was gonna say like fever dream. It was unbelievable because, you know, being such a diehard football fan and you get drafted to the most historical program in professional football was just like crazy. I mean, I remember the day I signed, they asked me what number I wanted and we also signed Charles Woodson. And I was like a diehard. I'd been on record a million times. People were like, oh, no, Charles Woodson, yes. Charles Woodson, I was like my guy. And he got signed to the same team. So I remember they asked me, they said, what number do you want? And I had like, I had the best numbers to pick from. They said 21, 27, 24. And for football, that is like, if my position defensive back, that is like prime. 'Cause 21 was Deon Sanders, 24 was Charles Woodson. And 27 was actually my youth number in high school and pop Warner. And so I was like, you know what? I really wanted to get 24. I think Charles was gonna get that number. I said, I'll just go to my roots. I'll take 27. My heart showed up, he had 21. It was the funniest thing. But yeah, but to go there and to like, he's on the team and Brett Farve was still the quarterback of the team. So I had all these like Hall of Famers and like, it's the Packers. So for me, it was just to get there was super cool, you know? Now like, like anything else, something great happened, something else happened, like adversity hits immediately. Yeah. I remember my very first, my very first training camp, In Green Bay, excuse me, mini camp, I end up snapping my foot in half the first day. First day on the job. Never, I never had anything in my life. You never had any really big injury. I never had a major injury. How did it happen? Just running. Just running like I do. Why is it always the stupidest shit that we get hurt on? I swear. Yes, and I, you see, dad's at ortho. So I'm sure he gets it and just, but it was crazy. It's funny 'cause that happened. It would have been a two week ago today that I did it. 'Cause I remember I graduated from Boston College on the 22nd, which I think is Friday. Wow. And I-- How many years ago? I don't want to age you. West, that's fucked up. West. (laughing) I graduated in, wow, 20 years ago. Okay. Is your roommate coming in? It's crazy. Oh my gosh. Say it again. Your reunion coming up? It is. And I am not going. I told everybody I was like, everybody I want to see I still talk to. Like I'm like-- There you go, yeah. Yeah, like let's go back. I was like, oh man, like, and it's in Boston too. So like, that's not an easy trip. No. You know what I mean? But yeah, just first-- So you snob drink all first day. Yeah, so I broke my foot. I broke the fifth metatarsal first day. And I was just like, this is crazy. Did you sign a contract for a certain amount of years or was it just your first year? Yeah, I signed, you signed, it was a four-year deal. Okay. So you had job security. Hell no. Oh. (laughing) Oh, this was crazy. NFL is not for long. Ooh. You can get cut whenever. The only guarantees are like whatever guarantees you sign for financially. But you're not guarantee the hell no. Oh my god. Hell no. So you were directing. There's no job security anywhere on earth. I don't believe. (laughing) Yeah. Yeah, I was stressed because you think like, you're coming in, you know, it was fourth round. I was at mid-round pick. So I had to like come and improve myself. So every so of your ship on your shoulder. So obviously the higher the ronia drafted, the more money you get. So you have, you know, more wiggle room. You have more rope. Yeah. And obviously the less you get paid, the later you get picked, you don't have much. - Yeah. - So for me, I was stressed because I was like, damn, dude, I have such an opportunity. And while I get drafted, they draft other guys, and they also signing a bunch of free agents too. So it's like a big, you know. - There's a lot of people also in line waiting to take the spot. - For the same spot. - Yeah. - Remember, I ended up having a surgery and then came back that season, this is crazy, my whole rookie year. Came back that season, ended up, you know, just banging knees with somebody. - Okay. - All good. - So then I go to ice my knee with the trainers. And you know, you get treatment and you just sit there and you wait for them to take everything off. - Yeah. - Whatever the hop has or the ice, whatever it is. And I'm just like, you know, listening to music. So finally, they take off the ice bag and I go to the table and then my foot just like dragging. And so I'm like, all right, I've been cold before, you wait for the thaw out, my foot never came back. So I had drop foot, I had drop foot for about, I think six weeks. - It like, hit a nerve. - Yeah, so the perennial nerve, which starts up, you know, your shin and goes all the way to a big toe. - Yeah. - Interior tibialis. Oh yeah, learn about that. - I was just like, you go and know everything now, after all your NFL injuries. - Pop, she know about interior tibialis. - Yes. - And so yeah, I had drop foot. So this is the beginning of the season. - Oh my God. - So can't play beginning of season because of that. And eventually that came back. And then I played a couple of games and then I think it was against the Vikings. I got blindsided and broke the first rib. So my first. - This is your first year. - My rookie year. - Your three injuries back to back to back, all in one year. - My rookie year was, my rookie year was hell. So people are like, man, how'd you get into beer? (laughing) That's how. - How'd you get into alcohol? - The alcohol period, yes. Stress the fuck out, man. - Oh my God. - It was tough. It was tough just to deal with that alone. That's my first year. - And you're by yourself. - And Green Bay. - And Green Bay was constant. There's nobody there. - There's nothing to do there. - No way to cope. - I like Green Bay. There was way to cope, but. - Is that how you coped? - No, you know what it was? I still got to go to a facility. - It kept you in the world a little bit. - Yeah, I kept being around the guy. So that was all good. Call of Duty was it. That was Call of Duty. That was my cope. I think I was like, I think I was like 75 prestige. That was the man, Call of Duty. - Oh my God. - I was so good. - How old were you at this point? - 21. - You're a baby. - That was. - That's so tough. - That's the hard part too. There's no, it's already stressful enough. You go from college straight to the pros and you gotta get an agent, get a financial advisor, buy a house, buy a car. - Gotta grow up real fast. - And you got taxes. Now you got real bills. Now you have real stuff to handle. I was chilling college. I had nothing to worry about. - Yeah. - I could become a full-time adult at the same time, be a full-time professional athlete. At the same time, like try to handle your life and then-- - And you're getting attention. - Oh, it's nuts. - And same. - It's nuts. Yeah. And I didn't have, I didn't have like a point person because no one around me really knew that life. I was the first one to do it. You know, my dad obviously tried his best just being a parent alone, but sometimes I was like, all right, you gotta let me handle this. - Yeah. - Yeah. That was my first year. So let's go into our second year. - Yeah, second year. Let me, we got-- - Break my thumb. - We got 12 years, so. - Break my thumb and training camp. Broke my thumb. But I didn't miss time. Right? How did it work? - What position were you? - Defense back. - Okay. - And then, so I then came back to get ready for the beginning of the season and I was actually going to start. I think it was a Sunday night game versus the Bears. And I get these new Nike Harachis, which I was like, oh, it's so sick. I'm aware of these. That Friday broke my foot again. That's sick. - Broker foot again. - Yeah. That Friday. And that's exactly what I did. - Your career is stressing me out. - I did just that. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah. Tell me how I feel. Shit. - And I love how I'm like smiley about this stuff. - Yeah. You can laugh about that now. - Die inside. That laugh now, because it was all good. - Yeah. - It didn't fully break. - Okay. - So, based on X-ray of the GM, Rest and Peace Ted Thompson, he was just like, you know what, we're going to hold on. We'll just sit you down for a couple of weeks and they said it's not fully broken. So, got treatment for like three weeks, I believe it was. And then I came back versus the Raiders and, you know, I got to go play and it was a great day. It's funny because the night before I was so nervous, I probably got about two hours of sleep. - Oh, that's the worst. - Yeah. - And I had a game of life, I had two touchdowns on special teams, end up winning the game, and it was kind of like, okay, this is like what I've been trying to do for a year and a half. Just to show them like, I can do this, because I know my time was ticking. - Yeah. - So then we end up playing a couple more weeks, end up playing the Lions to end the season. And guess what? - What? Please don't tell me you got hurt again. - Yeah, I know, broke my foot again. And this time was like-- - Is it the same foot? - Same foot, yeah. - Every time. - I can't re-break, because it never fully, apparently, never fully healed. - Never fully healed. - Yeah. Or the surgery just wasn't done properly. But I'm fine. And yeah. So, we end up going to, um, seeing the doctor in Charlotte, um, Dr. Anderson, he's like the foot wizard. - Okay. I feel like I've heard of this guy before. - I'm sure you have. - Mm-hmm. I don't know who he is. He's a foot. - It's so cool below. I got you. - Okay. - And I remember I went there to get-- - You're like, I don't know, do I need an amputation at this point? - Yeah. And yeah, I know. So I go there and it's funny, because it was a line out the door of like all my favorite players. I'm like, damn, oh yeah, I fucked your feet up. That's crazy. So-- - Oh wow. - And you get in my foot done. He put the bone in, you know, straight. He bone grafted, you know, which means you're rough with the bone so it can heal. So it took longer to heal. - Yeah. - But-- - It healed right. - But it healed like, absolutely perfect. - Okay. - So then I came back 2008 and had probably the best season. And so I felt like, okay, the year three went off-- - Okay. - Had the best season. - Trying to feel the light at the end of the tunnel. - No, yeah. I totally like put it on record like what I was doing. - Okay. - So I go into my fourth year and usually your fourth year, you complete that season regardless how well you did, like you, you, you, most likely will get a pretty good contract. - Okay. - You know, so I go into that season, just, you know, rare to go, excited. And I remember, we played the Vikings Monday night. I think it was Monday night. Can you remember? - Can I say, you have the most incredible memory? - I can't remember any of my meetings. - I remember. No, it's-- Who's somebody? What am I-- What on my team is called me an elephant? - You literally are like an elephant. Like your memory is insane. - Yeah. 'Cause I'm always-- - But these are core memories for you. - But they are. And also, I will get into it like how I got into mental performance. But, you know, going back to all that stuff and I use all that stuff when I'm helping other people. - Yeah. - Of like, I've been there, you know, so that's-- - Yeah, and you're still kind of in it. You're still kind of in it. - Well, I think, yeah, I'm still in it. - You're still analyzing it. Yeah, I never like detached from what I'm doing. - The muscles still getting worked, everything. - Right. And so I remember running, returning a plant, just running normal and just making it up same cut, like I always make. And I just remember I just threw the ball. 'Cause my knee was like gone. My knee was gone. Did ACL, lateral meniscus, bone bruise-- - I don't know where. - Part dislocation. Oh yeah, just, just non-contact, making a move. - Oh my God. - And done. - And that's where your big scar is from. - That's the big scar, a big, beautiful scar. - Wow. - I know you see someone else, you're like, aha. - Yeah. So I remember laying on that turf, first of all, I was like, call my wife, there's no one in the set-- - So you were married already? - Yeah, well, yes, 'cause we met in 2008. - Okay. - And so I was, you know-- - Thank God you had her through all that, because-- - No, that's real talk because she's a maniac. - Y'all are trauma bonded now. - And I just remember thinking, I was like, there's no way that this is how it ends. - Yeah. - Because the biggest, it's funny, this is gonna sound really crazy. But the biggest fear is like, our knee injuries. Like don't touch my knees. Like some guys would be like, hey, I'd rather get a concussion than get hit in the knee. - Really? - Because I need to be able to run. - Yeah, for. - You know, like I've been, you know, I've been rocked before and came back, you know. And so for me, I'm like, this is, there's no way that, you know, me be from the smallest state where no one watches us play football. You know, I went to an All-Star game and they didn't even know my name, and they called me Rhode Island. - Oh. - I was at an All-Star game. These are the top kids in the whole country. It's crazy. Top 75 kids. I'm like, yeah, Rhode Island. I'm like, my name is Will, but I'll take it. - My name is Will. - You know. - Yeah. - And to fight all the way through all that to make it here, I'm like, there is no way it ends like this. And I just remember going to the surgeries, going to all that stuff and it was just brutal. - How was your mental state through all this? - I was confused. My mental state was confused because my best attribute was, like, quickness. - Yeah. - I was very, very quick for being, you know, six-one at the time, two or five, like, I was a bigger for my position, but I can move like the little guys. So I was like, damn, am I going to have to change positions? You know, I'm not going to be the same player. So all those things were. - Kind of mourning, like, all of these identities. - Yeah, all those things. - Yeah. - And then when I came back, sure enough, it was. True old garbage really was terrible. I couldn't run my knees. It never felt comfortable and he never felt healthy. I just couldn't move the same. You couldn't like trust your body. Yeah, I was still recovering from my right foot. I mean, bitch, I have trust issues too. I feel like I wouldn't be able to trust my body after all of those experiences. Yeah, so no, exactly. How do you? Right. So I end up switching position to a safety, which is, you know, he's a bigger defensive back. They don't need to run as much. And I just had the worst camp ever. Because I just wasn't healthy. And this was after you resigned. So I, so instead of resigning for like the big contract, I thought I signed for like a one year. Okay. You know, minimum deal, but just still pretty cool. You know, it was, it was like 1.17, which is like still great. Yeah. Still pinch yourself every day that you even get to even got the contract. But then I remember I just during camp, I just, I was missing days and I kind of like saw the writing on the wall. I'm like, like I've seen this happen before. And sure, and I remember, I left for said, oh, me, well, my wife is pregnant with our son. Oh my God. And you're like, now I have a financial. Oh, yeah. Now responsibility. And I don't even know if I'm going to begin. Yeah. And we're looking to get a home. We're looking to get a home because we, we, we still live in my green by condo, you know, out there. Oh my God. And I remember leaving, leaving the facility. And I was like, I'm gonna go home, get some to eat. And I get a call. And I like, can you come back in the building? And I was like, I was like, this is crazy. I already know how your stomach felt. So I went out there and sure enough, just like they, they, they gave me the news. And so yeah, because I signed it, I didn't get, I didn't get that. So I'm going home. No job. No money. They cut you from the team. Yep. Got a cup of the team. Wife is pregnant. Doesn't know anything yet. Oh my God. Oh yeah, it's great. So then we go there. We're in green by just us to just like, this is nuts. So this is, yeah, that my first four years were like, it was, it was a little bit of this, a lot of it of that. Um, but I think my, my, again, my love for football was so great that even when it got chipped that, it still had some room. Yeah. First, like if I had the passion was still strong. Yeah, versus if I hated it, I, I think I would have shut it down early for sure. Um, so this is the before we, like I said, I know it's, it's a lot, but before we get to like other stuff. Um, so I remember I, the next morning, I'm just like, being to shit. I don't even know what to think, you know, you're literally just like, why God? We're just laying there. What are we doing? And remember wife, she's like, I had a gym. You go into the giants. I was like, good bit. She goes, I just thought that. And I was like, okay, cool. My agent calls me, no way, calls me. He's like, hey, the giants want to work you out. And I was like, this is crazy because my wife, magic, women's intuition is fucking crazy. That's another podcast. Yeah. But um, so I asked them to give me, I say, can they give me like a couple of weeks to like, I haven't trained with Gavin yet at Spongebob. I met him, but I have not worked with him, especially. So I came back to J Sarah and was training there. And I got as best I could get, you know, I still felt kind of unease and uncomfortable. So I go to New York, meet with the team doctor, Dr. Russell Warren. And he actually failed my physical. He's like, your knee is like pretty loose. Really? And he's like, but I like you. I let you work out. So I work out for the team on one leg and that making the team. Um, the tough thing is when you, because I was still injured, I had to sign a waiver in a contract, meaning if I get injured, they can cut my pay in half. And so I was basically a liability. Exactly. Oh, yeah, exactly. So I was fine. I just want to play. You're like fair enough. I don't trust myself. I get it at this point. That's funny. So so eventually, um, my knee just, it didn't do well. And I remember they called me in the office and they're like, Hey, you know, you got to get this fix. You have to get it redone because there's a lot of things in there that didn't heal properly. That wasn't done properly. You have to get your knee fixed. So they ended up ripping up the waiver. And they like look, the Giants were like, we'll take care of it. You pick any doctor anywhere in the country. Like we'll flip the bill. We'll handle it. You go home and be there for the birth of your son. Oh my god. I figured out. Yeah. So like I hold the Giants like highest regard. That's so honorable because you don't see that. No, look, I see them. It's just a big business. Well, yeah. And my contract was expired. I wasn't on the team next year. Wow. They didn't owe you anything. Nothing. So I ended up going to Krillinjo where I got my knee completely redone. This time, I did it like properly. I did a patella tendon graph. Yeah. Um, and then came back and they paid for that. I came back with Gavin here at Sports Science Lab. And we just like hit the ground. We're like, we're not effing around. Oh, we weren't. Yeah. Because I would tell myself to get into the mental performance. I'm like, look, someone, I was tell myself someone has been in a worse position than myself and has one. I love that. Like someone has. Yeah. And you can take that literally someone you know, you can take that spiritually. Someone you know. Yeah. You know, um, I always put myself in that. So we just hit the ground running tough. Oh, to make matters worse. Sorry. Let me go backwards. Go backwards. The packers won the swivel at year. The year after you left the year I left. Yeah. They cut me that season. So yeah. Now that I get cut, I lose the money. I was pregnant. No team. And they won the swivel that season. Oh, dude. And you would have had life changing money coming through your house. Oh my God. I can't. It was. Oh, yeah. And so you know what? Can we open your wine? Actually, I know. I know. I know. I'm telling you that's that's the deal. So then, but now I know why you brought me a bottle of wine. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I know. He's like, the store is going to be a doozy. And so. Okay. So you get the call. You get the surgery. You're with Gavin with Gavin. And then I end up, you know, the GM was like, Hey, call me if you want. I'm going to call you. So when I got healthy, I called them. They brought me in. I got signed. Um, and then I went to Subaru with the Giants. That next year, the very next year, your guardian angel was working over time. But that's something, but here's the thing. No question. And still no question. Still, especially, especially when I was trying to park outside, yeah, it definitely would be down there. So I'm telling you, everybody was like, what is this guy? I got it. I'm just off from the East Coast. I got this. Yeah. But that is the, that is the craziest part of, I'll just say, I would speak for the NFL alone. I'm sure in person sports is different everywhere else. But it's literally like this. And it's like this. And it's like this. It's a lot. Oh, it's the highs of the highs and the lows are the lows. It's crazy. And they're low low. They're awful. They're heavy low. Yeah. And then after I went to Subaru, the next year, I didn't get one call. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. It's crazy. And that's only halfway through your career. That's only halfway through this only halfway through. So when I did, I know you got a whole bunch of cars. You didn't get to. Oh, no, you're fine. You're actually covering a lot. That's cool. I do want to hear about the Super Bowl, because that's fucking insane. Like I won a national championship. And that was, I mean, peak existence, like coolest experience ever. I can't even imagine, but I will say on that level, I will say when I did get her and started the rehab process. Yeah. I did, I did end up connecting with a guy. His name is Jim Madrid. Okay. He lives in Laguna, actually. Okay. And he, he is, he doesn't say sports psychology. He says mental performance coach got it. And so because I was, I was such a confident kid. Not in terms of like arrogance, you know, yeah, you trusted yourself. 1,000%. Yeah. I used to visualize, I watched people growing up and all that was out the window. Yeah. All of it. You were put through the ringer. Yeah. No doubt. And so he, his style was interesting, because he, he really, he would train the subconscious to bring it frontal, because obviously everything you did is already in there. Yeah. And so, but when you get hit, when you get, you know, knock like that emotionally, you, you forget all that stuff. Everything's rattled. So yeah, even down to like, I imagine in English, but I wasn't, I didn't write that much, you know, but even just to like journaling and, yeah, and properly how to go set, you know, to, because he was big into like energy and the manifestation and, and really, there's a whole sequence I did during the week that like my body just took over and was able to do it on the weekends, you know. Yeah. So I worked overtime for that. So yeah, it was, it was, I mean, you're speaking my language. I am a huge advocate for mental health performance. No doubt. And psychologists. And I went to a sports hypnotist. I was so desperate at one point, because I had a mental block on vault. And like the shit you do, just to like be good at your sport. Like the shit that we've put ourselves through, just to like perform at our best is like, actually insane. Like I think if someone outside of sports saw what we what we were doing, they'd be like, oh, you're a psychopath, got it. but like I think when you become so obsessed with being the best version of yourself, like you will do anything to get there. And I think that's so cool that you put everything into getting back to where I wanted to be. - At least for me, there's no margin for error. Those don't margin for error. - No. - When you didn't, you get token fall off the beam. Like oh, that's fair, that's true. Yeah, but like, I mean, the hypnotist like helped me like, I do fully believe that we are only using like one percent of our brain capacity. And so I think like, to be able to hire a professional to help you tap into that and get you that extra edge, why not? Especially when your body couldn't do the sport, your mind can, you know? - That is like, so in my 30s, I was actually, I was faster than I was in my 20s. - Crazy. - Just because of the mental pursuit. - And the belief as well. You start to rebuild that self-belief. And then when you believe you can do it, that's 50%. - Well, I started feeling better. And I went, I drove up and down the coast, me and Gavin did. I mean, I got every single type of like - Treatment. - Injection you can think of. - Really? - Oh my gosh, like I went everywhere. And then I actually got a third surgery. I went to like this hidden doctor in Santa Barbara. - That's not sketchy at all. - It was, I didn't care. I was like, what, you want to fix me? - I'm desperate. - Yeah, you cleaned out my knee and it was like. - Wow. - I had full range and yeah, I just came back with the vengeance and just never, never had any issues like ever again. - So the universe rewarded you with a Super Bowl ring? - No, of question. - Yeah, and then I didn't play next year. So that's fine. But you know what though, it's, here's the thing. - Did you play in the Super Bowl? - I did, yeah, yeah. - Hell yeah. - Yeah, no, I did. - That doesn't make any sense. I don't get your sport, man. - Because people looked at my injury history. - And they were like, he's a liability. - They were like, he is damaged goods. We don't want that. You know, so I gotta be. - Sad face. - But, but here's the thing. - Not damaged goods. - But again, I look at that. That's why this whole therapy thing was helping me because I was like, damn, why am I like, sometimes I could be like, stoic as hell, stone cold. And like, I can have the worst day ever and still play well. - Yeah. - Like I can do that. - You can flip that switch. - Or it won't even bother me, you know. But going to like rehash and look at everything I've been through, I'm like, damn, that makes sense. Why I kept getting up every single time, you know. - To superpower. - Every single time. But it is, but it's also, but it can be, it's acquired though. At the same time through experiences. And even now with, with our son and our daughter, their life is totally different. So they're getting their adversity through different experiences. - Yeah. - You know, maybe like this past weekend, he didn't play as much as he thought. - Mm-hmm. - And it ticked me off, ticked off my wife, but at the same time, I'm like, well, it needs to bother him. - It needs to bother him. - Yeah. Like he has to be-- - This is gonna be a growth moment for him. - Yeah, he has to be more ticked off than we are, 'cause we're not, we're not playing, he is. And so if we're, if we're doing all the, you know, being stressed out or annoyed whatever the situation is, more than him, then he's kind of like gonna defer, okay, my parents upset, I'll let them be upset. I'm gonna go, you know, play this game. - Yeah. - He's like, no, I need to like, wake up at seven o'clock and hear the ball bouncing outside, 'cause he's furious. - That's what I mean. I think truly, when you can't understand why a situation is the way it is, like for instance, I know that your son is phenomenal at his sport. He's doing great. He's been, you know, getting awards. I saw like your Instagram post like, he's not in a war for-- - Yeah, yeah, he's doing well. - Doing really well in his sport, but when you can't identify why something's happening, I think it's the universe's way of holding you to a standard. - I believe that, yeah. And he's giving you-- - Because the universe knows he's capable of so much more, and it's gonna push him to hit that potential. - For sure. - Versus other kids, you know? - And also in any situation, you know, 'cause once you establish who you are based on your experiences, then it doesn't matter who the coach is, it won't matter who the team is, it doesn't matter what city, what state, whatever, like for me, if there's a football, it'd be a fucking sock. Like let's get it. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? If there's an end zone, we used to play, you know, they'd call it throw 'em up, bust 'em up, they'd call it smear, then I'm not gonna say it, where it was one versus everybody. - Okay. - Sometimes we play with a juice box. You know, if we're playing the game, I was good. - You loved it that much. - I was good, so, you know, even prior, and I love using my son as an example, because he has been in a learning or growth mindset since he was about seven years old, and I say this because, so, when he first started swimming, it was obviously for safety reasons, right? We're in California, there's pools, there's beaches, there's everything, so it was for safety, and so he naturally, you know, transitioned to the swim team. - Oh, he's on the swim team. - He's on the swim team when he was seven years old. - Okay. - And, yeah, even that, like, you're not winning like that. So, having to deal with, okay, how can I, now, competing as myself, you know, PR? He started learning about PRs or PBs. - And getting gratification from growth, not from titles. - Right. - Or rewards are outside. - Yeah, just personal growth. And then, you know, you got to get in the pool early in the morning and it's freezing, you know, the coach puts him in the medley, where he has to do every single style. - Yeah. - And he's like, he's little, you know, so that alone. And then, the best thing, this is like huge. I think the best thing that ever happened to our son is when he was eight years old, he asked me. He was like, "Dad, are there any wrestling cups or kids?" I was like, "Yes." I was like, "Shoot back when I was growing up." That's all my friends did was wrestle as a kid. - Wrestling's huge in these cups, too. - Huge. - And Mark Munoz, who's a former UFC fighter, he was a national champion wrestler and he had a studio in like forest and then he ended up being at League of Legends High School. - Okay. - And it's called Rain Wrestling. So I looked that up and I was like, dude, here it is. Rain Wrestling. - Yeah. - So this is really cool. So he went to, he started in beginner and then started, you know, doing well against those kids. And the coach came to me. He was like, he needs good intermediate. I was like, "Why?" You know, he said, "Well, he's taking the instruction and applying them immediately in the middle of drilling." I'm like, "All right, I'll trust you guys." Like, "Sure." He's athletic enough. He's taking the coach and cool. So then he goes to intermediate, has a little bit of resistance. Then he starts doing well against those kids, too. So they come to my wife and I a few weeks later to like, he needs good advance. I don't like, time out. I'm like, we're not here trying to get a scholarship. You know, he picked wrestling. So I want him to enjoy it. Like, I'm not trying to, oh yeah, I see potential. Let's go. He's having fun. He's eight years old. Like, what are we doing? They're like, yeah. - Let him be the driving force. - For sure, but they're like, but we, again, they explain to us. And so I contemplate on this for a week. 'Cause the last thing I didn't want to do was make him hate what he's doing. - He didn't. - Yeah. - You know, especially when he picked it. So we were like, all right, let's go to advance. So he goes to advance. And the first day he gets fucking dragged through the mud. Oh my, he has like a cool afro. That thing was a mop that day. Okay, he was, and I'm sitting there watching him. I'm like, don't look at me. - Yeah. - Are you? - It's on my phone. - I said, it is my phone. - He didn't, yeah. - He's like, don't look at me. - He's like, oh my gosh. And I'll tell you the one thing I didn't do, I never do the, I'm not a car right home dad. I got that from my dad. If I got on the car upset, my dad left me alone. He didn't. Now, if I opened the conversation, then he would do it. Now, when I say car right home, I will sometimes speak to him, but I'm not like, we should have done this. We should have, I let him cool down, you know, I always, I would say most of the time, I lead with like, hey, proud of you today. You know, I'll lead with that. And then once we get into it, we'll have like cool discussions. But anyhow, after the wrestling and he got beat up, I'll just like, oh, like I don't know what to say. First of all, it's not my sport. - Yeah. - I can't say beat tough, it's technique, you know. Like your sport, you can't say try harder. It was technique. You gotta lock in, you know, certain things. So, this happened for like a week. And I can tell like every day, I'm like, we got wrestling right here. And he's like, like grabbing his bag, he's dragging his head like this and I'm just like, I feel like the worst dad of all time. So, I remember in Jacksonville when I played for the Jaguars, my coach would always say, coach Gus Bradley, he would say, celebrate the victories. And he was like, even in defeat, you can find things you did well. - Looking for the highlights and the silver linings. - Yeah, like even, like I could have had a terrible game, but maybe there were like 10 out of the 50 plays. Oh, that's what it looks like. - That were good, yeah. - You know, so I find it. those don't just look at those yeah that she says you play like trash but like you know saying find it there and so we we sat down and we learned about wrestling wow that you can win on points escapes reversals take downs what have you and because we learned he's trying to pin these kids now he's eight but he looks like he's 10 so therefore you're going against 10 year olds 11 year olds they're already more mature and stronger. Those are three years experience on oh it's crazy and just there's the physical maturation in terms of the strength and mindset so of course they're gonna like strut my son so we go into practice and before we go and I go writer let's just get one escape like that feels tangible yeah just I'm saying like let's get in the escape yeah yeah and so goes into practice he always crush conditioning because he thinks he's an animal and I know him and Jay they do like these animal movements all around the house even still he's bigger than me oh yeah actually thinks he's an animal that's it's fun it's cool dying oh this is a dying doing a bear crawl he's like he's like out of here it's so funny and um so he's they start drilling and then he's you know getting beat a little bit and then boom he snaps out and gets an escape and I remember the coach across the way he didn't know like that was writer's goal he's like right oh that's like great escape good job so my son like lit up like oh I got my escape then he got his ass with that after that but but he got a win he got when he went to the car like I got my escape see like y'all can't say nothing I got my one escape even though his hair was like all of these things and then um then a next day got reversal next time gotta take down yeah next time there was momentum it's compounding then he started putting these all together and then eventually he um he wrestled one of the kids who was ranked and ended up like making him cry so now like the tables fully turned this was like a three week process wow fully turned and so that's what I mean by I know it was a long story that's what I mean by at the very very beginning like he was young he learned like okay the growth mindset the process of certain things so now he has this innate thing where if it gets dark he's like I'm good he can he can always go back to that like because you taught him that I helped him with it because he's still had a he's still had to do it yeah of course he had to apply yeah he could have brushed you off him and like yeah whatever done I don't know how much you've told him about your experience in the NFL but he knows you've been through a lot of adversity all they heard all of it exactly and so I think when he has that context he knows that you're speaking from experience and a lot of what you say has wait because you went through the trenches and you came out the other side you know it's hard I'm still dead though I know you're still in the trenches you're in the different trenches but I'm just I'm dead yeah like I can give my experiences but I'm dad first you know you're not the coach because I will this way you heard before like hey coach said this and like I've been telling you that the whole time yeah and I'm like and I play and I'm telling you this yeah you know I'm saying it um but I'm I'm first and foremost dad yeah so even though my words hold away from my experiences I'm dad first second and third and then it's like oh yeah my dad played yeah that's crazy do you think when you were in the NFL you would have a kid that would be trying to follow in your footsteps like he's playing football yeah well he yeah well here's the thing though he he just started playing last year okay yeah he I I let them pick what they want to do smart I didn't want to be like hey I play you got to play yeah because if they pick it's more powerful yeah yeah they're gonna put more into it and then he'll ask last year he wants he say can I play I'm like sure but the fact that he asked huge yeah you're like you're like in your room by yourself like yeah I'm like no I'm not like yes because you know how hard it is well I know I got that means I have to get involved yeah at least like yeah I played like you got practice breathwork yeah you basketball yeah I was younger so like I'm limited and what I can do and I can hand him off to somebody else yes and kind of give him my two cents once a while but football like that's that's mine you're bread and butter that's mine so I'm like you know I'm like damn I got to like dust off the old books someone needs to make this man up when he's in the stands for a game because I know I'm good I'm good are you cool yeah okay it is my wife really yes basketball games I used to have to sit like on the other side hmm yes well I'm working now but she is locked in even at my game she sat right behind the bed she didn't yell but she sat right behind the bench all the wives were in the press box she's locked to have was drinking yeah she was right behind the bench like watching they get yes I know she's filming she's like we're gonna review footage when you get home she had a grease ball she had a grease board she's like third and five I'm like okay she's yelling the rough yeah no she's tuned in I'm actually pretty chill I'm very chill which is why a lot of kids like when I coach them because I am I'm zen that's awesome yeah yeah especially I think at the higher level it's so easy to get to kind of match the energy of your coach and so when they're anxious you don't know any better you're so impressionable at that age it's like so easy to be like oh well my coach is anxious I need to be anxious but when you look across the field and you see your coaches calm cool and collected you're like oh period especially in crucious situations yeah in crew situations where you're like there was a high stress moment right now and your coach is like everybody we gotta do this you're like oh versus like damn my coach is like chilling yeah like on the on the plane where we just came back from Indiana my son and I had a a deed as basketball tournament and he most people he hates turbulence right and we were in the back so like you really feel it turbulence when you just in the back yeah and I'm like you good he goes yeah I'm good I was like look I said this is what I do I said the flight attendants are chilling I'm chilling oh good one yeah I said so in this case they're the professionals I was like in this case like if you don't see me like react I was like you're fine yeah now if I'm like oh shit right there yeah maybe you should run yeah I was like so but that's kind of how my thought processes for when I'm coaching too it's like all my coaches were like that they were my my really good coaches were so chill really all in the NFL yeah so chill when I'm some of the really good ones were so chill when the stakes were higher you know and that's an acquired skill yeah through experience yes very much so okay with you being in the NFL I want to talk a little bit about mental health because it's so prevalent roughly one in three players show signs of depression or report mental health struggles after retiring from the NFL why do you think that is it is I would say because it's like taking the hamster off the wheel it's like a shock like it's I was done I would say for me playing in the NFL was like unlike anything else because you're you're adrenaline your emotions everything is heightened to the max like it is the most exhilarating the craziest experience of all time it's like it might be similar to like I don't know driving a car or base jumping like it is to the max yeah and when you're done there is nothing else like that yeah there's nothing like you know the guys who do well so financially like you're not gonna make money like that unless you going to invest into something or venture capital is whatever it is um just energetically wise you know the physicality the lifestyle the you know I was telling someone the other day I was like some 41 now and I was like I retired at 36 wow so I thought long ago yeah so I was I was really training for me just for 30 years for me just six to 36 wow that's all I did yeah that's who you are yeah that's all I did yeah and sure like I got involved with other things but like to do something for 30 years and then don't do that anymore I mean there's you you can people can prepare themselves and set themselves up and even go on I know guys that made 10x what I made and they're like struggling yeah and then for me who somebody who was so obsessed with the sport so blocked in with it and that's all even when that whole movement came out I think the figure who was a tolem Ron the shut up and dribble and so everyone came up with the I am more than an athlete yes you can do this which is great I remember that I was just fine being an athlete that's I was fine that's all it it was so it was easy for me that's all I want to do like because that was your passion that was who you were yeah I like I I wake up you're living the dream I wake up I go train I go practice I go study you know I go eat I go train again I go study you know I can come home and whatever play my games and hang out with my friends or whatever it is like My life was just play football. Are you kidding me? - Yeah, you get to play for a living. - Yeah, you're ruined with bills, but yeah, like I can just play football. I wish I can do it forever. - Yeah. - When I was, his was crazy. When I finally stopped playing, the first thing that I struggled with was like, I was like, oh shit, I gotta make my own schedule. - I know. That is honestly one of the biggest shock. - I had to make my own schedule. - I think I had, yeah. - I'm like, I still struggle with that. - I know, I'm like, what am I gonna do today? - Like, free will is great until you have to make your schedule and you're like, yeah, free will. - 'Cause I'm like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, what do I start? - Working out was really hard for me too. - 'Cause you don't have to. - I don't have to, but also any workout I did after retiring from collegiate gymnastics. It felt like it was light work and I was like, this isn't hard enough. Like, unless I was killing myself in a workout, I was like, this was a waste. And so I just didn't work out. 'Cause I'm like, it's nothing's gonna, I don't know what it was, it was like, it was almost like a trauma response of like, I don't have to kill myself every single day. I'm not gonna do it then. - Yeah, and. - I had such an unhealthy relationship with fitness and, movement and all of it. - I had a, so the thing for me was, if I created a fitness routine or workout routine, I would quit it every time. I have about 50 workout routines in my Google docs that I have not completed. 'Cause I'm always trying to start a new one. - Yeah. - And, because again, I was so used to the regimen. - Just being told what to do. - Yeah, and so. - That's why I do workout classes now. I have to be coached. - That was the best thing ever. - It's the best. - And it's so-- - Hiring a personal trainer, or anything else, like just telling you what to do. - Just go to a group class and you don't want to do it. - Yeah, I love a group class. - It's great, and so. - Very sole cycle. I'm all in it. - Yeah, I do like boxing group classes. - Yeah, class passes like my back pocket. I know I'll get a good workout in. - No doubt about it. And so for me, I had to turn it into a lifestyle. - Yeah. - That sort of was. It was a lifestyle for me. So, some days I'll walk, some days I'll jog, some days I'll box, some days I'll live, some days I'll, whatever it is. And I'll just, if anything, I'll go for a number. Like I'll-- - Just go for a certain amount of time. - I want to burn and find the calories today. - Okay. - Actively. - Okay. - Yeah. - For me, it's like I'll run for 30 minutes. - Yeah. - Or I'll run till I don't feel like running anymore. Like I kind of just like let my body tell me what it needs. - Just go. - Yeah. When you were struggling behind the scenes, did you have teammates that were also kind of, did you guys have like a support group? Because like, how does that work? I know I feel like it's very, very common in the NFL to have people that are struggling because the sport's so hard, the atmosphere is so difficult, the environment's so challenging. But did you have kind of this relationship with your teammates where you could talk about stuff? - You know what's tough. I would say the only thing that would, I would say that offered anything was like, we had like Bob's Tutting Groups. - Okay. - Well, you didn't really talk about that stuff, but the hard thing about especially where I was in the NFL was you can literally show any signs of weakness, you cannot or any signs of you declining or anything, whatever it is. - Because then your liability. - Yeah, 'cause everything's being documented. Like give me a reason. Oh, he's limping today, okay, you know. Like there's so many unreported injuries, it's not even funny, you know? Even if I, I got to the point where if I hurt something, I went off site, I got treatment somewhere else. - That's why you said you went to that guy in Santa Barbara? - Well, no, that was, that was another surgery just in the off season. - Got it. - I mean like during the season. - Wow. - Like, when I was in-- - Going off the grid. - Yeah, when I was in Green Bay, I would go, and I loved the guys there, but I just didn't want to be in the building, especially me having all those injuries already. - Yeah. - Even somebody to walk by, but oh, we was in a train room again. I'm like, I'm just like getting water. - Yeah, yeah. - Just the fact that I was in there. - Yeah. - So I went off and found this guy, Dr. King, who, you know, he did the ART. That's when like, ART got hot and the Kineso tape. And so it was funny because we didn't do Kineso tape when I was in Green Bay. So he had all these guys coming in with the Kineso tape. They're like, "Where are you guys going with this?" So I would literally go off site and get everything done because the last thing I wanted was to show them anything was wrong, especially in my case. But yeah, even the whole mental thing, man, is you would, it's hard because like, you could have your friend, but you can compete against your friend too at the same time. So is he like low-key trying to find an edge? Or can you give him an edge? You just don't know. So that's why it's a hard space. Like the team can have somebody, but they're hired by the team. Even though they say-- So they can report back to the coaches? Even though legally, they may not be able to. Yeah. It's still like, you work for the team. So I don't really, I don't really trust you in that regard. You know, every team has a player development guy or a player director or a player engagement. And he's the person who is, you know, the little man between the players and the coaches. So he handles everybody lifestyle-wise. Like he'll help you, you know, get a real order to help you with any, you know, off-season activities. If you want to like go back to school, anything outside of football he helps you with. Got it. He's usually a former player and he's like there for you. And there are some that are like really good where it's like, you say something to him like he got you. Yeah, he's like a brother, yeah. If you get into some legal trouble, you call him first and he got you. And it like never gets to anybody else unless like it's that bad. Yeah. There's very few, you know, that are like that. But it's usually that person that you could talk to. And for me, that's who I would maybe talk to about stuff. But it's hard because there really isn't. And you really don't. No, who to trust. You really, yeah, you really don't. What do you think? So it's hard, it's hard to like open up. Yeah, because you don't know who you're opening up to and you don't know what repercussions will come from it. Right. Which is fair. I mean, I kind of felt the same way when I was competing at UCLA. It was just like, when I was, this was back when I viewed vulnerability as a weakness. And so I just wasn't vulnerable. Because I'm like, if I open up about mental health struggles that I'm having, they're not, are they not going to feel confident in putting you out on the floor and performing? Right. Even though I knew I could handle my shit when I needed to, right? Is she going to be on her stuff today? I don't want to. So one of those days. Yeah, I didn't want to put doubt in someone else's mind that I wouldn't be able to do my job. And I think, especially as I was a walk on, and I had a chip on my shoulder, I had a chip to prove, it was like so much more of that weight on me. Right, even that, right. And I'm curious what you think now as a coach, maybe the NFL can implement to help men feel more safe with opening up about their mental health. Because it gets to a point where it's, it's, it gets bad. It gets dark really fast. Like their suicidal ideations, there's issues with, as tempted suicide, like, especially with CTE. And so what do you think maybe athletics as a whole could do to help? Yeah, well, I think, I mean, the NFL is what it is. So it's tough. Now, the one thing I will say that at least, you know, because of, you know, social media nowadays, like it's out there, like there's awareness. It's known to talk about it, you hear about it. It's a bit less taboo. Yeah, so I think it's just more on us former players to connect and do that. Yeah, because the, here's the thing. The NFL, they do offer support, they offer, actually, I'm getting, I'm getting my free sessions through the NFL right now. Oh, nice, okay, cool. They pay, they actually pay for like 10 sessions for free, which is like, great, you know what I'm saying? And then it's up to you afterwards. So they do offer that, you know, through our health insurance. But even that, we're so, we're so stubborn, where we, even though the program's that we won't go do it, you know, like, you can send, you can send us emails, letters, you can offer us resources. You got it, but you got a fizzy drag our ass out the house and take us there. Yeah, and I'm stubborn. I know how it is, too, you know? So I think it's just more on us as former players to do that with each other. And understand the severity of it. Yeah, like that. You are going to have almost like PTSD from being in such a high stress environment for as long as you were. I mean, 12 years is a long foot in time. But understand the severity for somebody else. Like, because it's like, this is not, this is extreme. But like somebody with a problem, like, really going to go help themselves, they're not going to walk or be like, hey, I need help. I know somebody, any intervention, someone that. So like, something I'll do is, once a week, I'll cold call like 10 random colleagues. Notting you guys to play with, just cold call. That's awesome. Just check in. Just out of the blue, don't need shit from you. I'll just cold call. And I, and I laughed, too, when I look on social media and, you know, when something tragic happens to somebody, everyone's like, check in, check in, check in. I'm like, nobody fucking. checks in, like no one does. And I don't, I don't give a shit and checks anyone checks with me or not, but I never got in a call. I never got in a call. And I'm the one person who for real, like I go out there, I'm in the streets calling everybody. I check everyone. And so do I care is not reciprocated? No, I don't care. Like I don't, I'm not gaining anything. I'm just, I'm just letting people know like I'm there that know what's hunting people with that do struggle. You know, when it comes to that, I had a former player who made a ton of money, who asked me for a gas money, not too long ago. You know? So how do I help in a situation like that? I open up him to like all the resources that I take advantage of. Yeah. Like versus me, like, yeah, I can, Venmo, you gas money right now. You can. Yeah. But let me like the whole, you know, teach me how to fish. Yeah, that analogy of that thing. And so, you know, you can, all things I activate it, you can apply for all the disability benefits. You can, you know, apply for the, the fellowship coaching, you know, because you're back in it and you can apply for internships in the NFL through your teams. There's so many things that we don't even know, you know, that you can actually activate or that's available to you. And that was something that I, I had eventually figured out because I'm like, damn, dude, like, especially the disability. I'm like, dude, I had 12 surgeries. Like, there's no way I'm not getting nothing. Yeah. That's so true. I got arthritis. I have more surgery after I just stopped playing my hands are arthritic, my feet, my knees, like I'm a mess. Oh my God. Get this man a wheelchair. Fuck the wheelchair. I don't want that thing hell, though, but yeah, but I mean to cover your physical therapy for pretty much the rest of your life. Like, you've, you've left the NFL with permanent damage. No doubt. And not even just physically, but mentally. I mean, the concussions, the mental, you know, drain and turmoil it took on you and your emotional well-being. Like, it's, it's a lot more than I think people realize. Oh, it's crazy. But that's why I answer your question. The player or player has to be more, it can't, it's got to be tight. I can't put it because again, our mindset is if it has, like when I was on a team, if it has the logo, I'm like, uh, if it has the shield, you know, it has to be us individually to help each other. That's only the only way. And I think they also get it more like to be able to connect with another athlete. You just have an unwritten connection because you both get it. You're both in it. And especially once you're both retired, you're like, you and the trenches too. Okay, cool. Let's go grab coffee, you know, but it's as simple as that. Yeah. Just go grab coffee. I'll see now with, like, with the whole, you know, financial investment. So even the, even the wellness world, like, that's been, that's been big. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of my, I'll never do it, but a lot of my friends are doing the high rocks races, like stuff like that. Yeah. Um, finding different outlets. Yeah. I'll just more, um, I'm very careful with my wording, like escape outlets, just more so, like purpose. Well, finding like, like you said, little wins. Yeah, because I feel like a purpose is ongoing. Yeah. Like versus like, I need to go do something else, you know? So yeah, a lot of my former athlete friends are doing those high rock races. I laugh. Same, literally same, it's either a marathon. You're gonna do one. I mean, shit, probably. You are, what, what she's doing? She's definitely gonna do it. Absolutely. She, you're gonna do ninja warrior. You're gonna do all that stuff. I can tell you are fucking, you're a maniac. I can already tell. Yeah. That's you got, you got, you got the walk on vibe, man. I know. You're, you're nuts. I know. We're both different. I think too. It's like, unfortunately, you have to come to a realization at one point or another that nothing will ever feel as good as your sport did. Yeah, nothing, nothing matches it. Like chase it. Like chase it. Yeah. Chase it. You can chase it. And like, you can find other things that maybe give you like 25% 50% satisfaction, but like nothing matches, winning a Super Bowl, getting a perfect 10, winning a national championship, being a Hall of Famer. Like those are things that will like forever be identified as the peak. What's one piece of advice you'd give to a young athlete who's dream is to make it to the NFL? Oh, man. I will say my one piece of advice for an athlete trying to make it to NFL is just dominate where you are. You know, like be the best person where you are. Never run from the smoke. Oh, that's it. Like, don't be afraid of competition. That's the thing. And they say that because a lot of people look for easy, especially when you're younger, you know, you want to, you want to go and always be the best kid against, you know, lesser competition. Or you might meet your match and, and don't be afraid to find out. I would say I think for me, because being an individual sport, it's a lot easier to do this. Maybe I don't know with the NFL, obviously competing against other people and having to literally, you know, collide with people. But for me, I would say biggest advice would be literally just you versus you, because everyone peaks at their own time. Everyone hits their potential at a different time of their life. And it's so difficult and honestly, so detrimental to compare yourself to others. For sure. Because you have no idea what they're doing. You have no idea what they're going through. So, the best thing you can do is literally control your controls. How do you mentally prepare for life after football? How did you do it? I did it because I have a really cool support system. My family is great. My wife and kids are awesome. My father, my friends. I have a great circle. Keep your circle close. I have a great, I have a great circle. I have like three mentors. That's amazing. In different aspects of life. So I never thought about that. That's a good question. I have a good team around me. That's awesome. Where they hold me accountable. I would say for me like finding things that you're really good at and leaning into it. Like what? Like I would be good at outside of gymnastics. Yapping. Here we are. Here we are. And I realize I didn't realize I think I think when you're young, you have this affinity to be able to say yes and figure it out after. And so I think like I really encourage athletes because you don't realize how many lessons you've taken from your sport. Like say yes and figure it out after that. Like I said yes to a Red Bull cliff diving job where I was a TV show host. Have I ever been a TV show host before? No. Did they still fly me across the world and have me do a crazy job where I interview professional athletes? Yeah. And I realize oh shit, I'm actually kind of good at this and I like it and it's fun. I always listen. Yeah. I always take a meeting. Just why not? Like if someone sees potential in you that you don't see in yourself, listen, open up your mind to it and say yes. What's one habit that separates good athletes from greats? Yeah. Being obsessed with the process. I love that. That's the thing right there. Be it follow in the process and then understand like real work ethic. Yeah. That's true ownership because you're not waiting on anybody else. Well thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. We could gap all afternoon, honestly. It's so so fun to connect. You could gap all afternoon. You would admit it you're a yapper. Yeah, that's true. Well, thank you for coming on. I appreciate that. Yeah. And good luck with everything. Be sure to check them out on all the stuff you are crushing. I cannot wait to try your wine. Yes. Enjoy that. I'm very excited. Yes. Love you so much. Thank you for tuning in and I will see you in next Wednesday.