Grace VanderWaal + Eren Cannata | Growing up as a 'Childstar' and processing it through music

I was once hired to play acoustic guitar in a hotel room for two lovers. Or two lovers. I was. I was. Hello. Welcome to my podcast. I am just a tranter and this is unfamous, a podcast about famous people and the unfamous people that make the art with them, that makes them famous as someone who whole my entire life changed when I started collaborating, started co-writing songs. My whole life changed. I wanted to do a podcast and have amazing conversations about the beauty and the struggle and the glamour of collaboration. So we are here today with two very brilliant people who I know pretty well, just to be honest with everybody. I know these people both pretty well. Grace and I wrote together many years ago and I write together almost every day. And they have made an album together that is really unbelievable and really beautiful. And what we do in this moment, instead of me doing long introductions about each of you, I ask both of you to introduce each other, brag about each other. So you don't need to list resumes. You don't need to list resumes. I just like sort of like introduce each other, how you would, whether you're at a party or whatever it would be. But instead of me being boring, the two of you who work together very often, the two of you introduce each other. So Aaron, would you like to introduce Grace? Okay. Well, hi. Hello, everyone. Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for Grace Vanderwoll. Grace is an accomplished singer, writer, actress, former ukulele player. And she's looking at me right now. She's also confused and lost and scared. Grace Vanderwoll, everybody. This is Aaron Kanada. Sometimes confused, lost and scared. Most of the time speaking about something that you don't really know about, but you just kind of nod and smile. The creator of many large, large records of the largest being child, so when you guys first started writing together, was it like the typical L.A. pop writing circuit where it was like just one day or did you meet before you started writing or how did it tell me the moment you guys met? I think we met in a session. Yeah. I think we met in a session the first day, but I don't know if we wrote something for the record that day or if we didn't, but we definitely hit it off. We definitely were like, oh, yeah, vibes are high. And you know, we started to throw a bunch on the calendar and just kind of, we kind of just put it all together after that, you know? Yeah. I think it was a session. No, I remember now. We had like a two, three day long session for the viewers. Sometimes you have like follow-up sessions, right? Like if we don't finish the song or something. And we were set up that way, which allowed us. Like if we had a one off, it might have been like, oh, he was really, really cool, but like maybe wouldn't have gone down, but it was because we had like another day and another day. And then you kind of start losing your mind when it's set up like that. You kind of stop making music. You kind of just sort of like, fucking around. And yeah, I think that's what like probably set off the relationship. Was it at the beginning? Was it like, because I know in some of my sessions, you're like, oh, just like we got along really well. So let's keep doing it. Or sometimes it's like I actually, it was more about the writing was so good. Let's keep doing it. Or both. Was it more of like a vibe thing that like started the relationship? Or was it like, oh, this is like writing wise we're kicking us at the beginning, or did it take a while to start kicking us? Well, I would always be with a writer. Yeah. Yeah. I think we like round robin experiencing psychosis in different times. I think that worked out for us. Yeah. You know what I mean? Can you explain that? Well, you know, like you get into your modes like it's got to be like this. It's got to be like this. And then you're like, then you like kind of took her out and you calm down. And then she's like, it's got to be like this. And like I think, you know, that happening over and over again kind of creates the ebb and flow of something. I will say there was times where I was in the studio next to you guys and would run into you in the kitchen. And it was like, oh, whatever. If I'm on 10, they're on 72. Like I don't know what's happening there, but it sounds really fun. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we both just share like, I hate, I just feel like it's already so mentally draining. And I hate hate. Like there's a certain vibe that can be in a room that like makes you feel just like completely like life stucked out of you. And I always feel like it's best to just like have fun and like hear each other. And so like I think we like both share that ethic. Like it's never that deep. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because some people get hung up on the details and really kill the vibe of the room. I couldn't agree more like like like ruining the vibe to obsess over the third line in the second verse. Like we can obsess over that like another day. It can be handled another day, another year. Exactly. I have a question for you specifically because you started writing with strangers so young. It's the weirdest part about our job is that we walk into rooms with strangers, complete strangers. And you're like, so nice to meet you, write a song. Yes. This is my childhood. And this is the breakup I just went through. Yeah. So how does it? Can you like, I'm just curious because I started this session circuit much later in life because I was in a band and we wrote our own songs alone, which was a mistake. By the way, we should have collaborated. It would have been better for the songs for real. But I didn't start like the like session circuit until I was like my early 30s. When did you start the session circuit? Oh my God, probably 12 years old. I mean, that is fucked. Yeah. How does it feel to be 12 and like walk into room with a bunch of 40 year olds and they're like, write a song 12 year olds? Like I was just like, okay. I mean, work. It's just like watch me. And like the thing is, I don't know, I feel like that's kind of what is so like special and sacred about music and any forms of art is it like, it allows you to kind of have this weird safe space crutch to like, when you're like pouring out your soul about those things, it kind of doesn't feel like you are. It like allows you to have this crutch of safety where you can talk about these things objectively. Like, I never feel close to things while I'm discussing it for a song with people. So like with strangers and stuff, I don't know. I'd never feel that like, like intimidation of vulnerability or unfamiliarity with the people in the room because it's just like, we're able to look at it as an objective art piece. Yeah. And so even when you were like young and it would be about parts of your life, the second you start talking about it as a song. Well, I wrote very differently when I was young. I would just like, it's so funny because I feel like you, you get better and you like figure out what it is now, which is just like, I'm just like speaking gibberish and then like, you know, whatever coming up with ideas. But I was just a kid and I was insecure. And you know, when you're a kid, you just care about being good and looking cool. Right. And so I would just like tuck in the corner and basically like write a song and like, they were writers in a room. Yeah. And I was a lot of my songs when I was younger. And then I would just be like, I just, what about this? And then they'd be like, maybe change that word to this. Cool. Now I have like 25% of this. So yeah. Do you like where you are now where it's more collaborative in the room? Yeah. It's so fun. Because it should be fun. You know, like we're allowed this crazy opportunity to have this job that's so fun. Yeah. Why not have fun with it? I feel like that would be such a disservice to this job. Collaboration is kind of the most fun thing in the world. It's very fun. As long as everyone else is having fun. Yeah. Certain people who take it too seriously kind of ruin the vibe. Yeah. That's my pet peeve. Yeah. It is just like guys, it's a fucking song. It's literally a let it go. I mean, poetry at each other. No, literally. And sometimes it's over something so useless. Like one word or one syllable. And I'm just like vibes. Like you got to keep it moving. Because now the vibe is ruined for the rest of the line. Now you can't write the bridge. Can't write the chorus. And now I don't know if I trust your taste because you just killed the vibe. I just killed the vibe. And I don't know if I even actually get out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With both of you who you're see, you see a little bit of it here. But as someone who's seen them in the studio, the energy level is so high as I mentioned before, who in your collaboration, who like rains it in and goes, okay, it's time to finish the song. Or does that never happen? I'm surprised we finished a lot of these. Me too. - I don't know. - I don't know. I think. - Deadline? - I don't know if that's the deadline of yelling that out. - I think we both like going into, like it's fun for us. - Yeah. - You know, like I think we hyper-fixate on things. - Yeah. Okay, if we had to say who's the most chaotic in the session. - I still don't know. - It's equal. - I think we're different types of chaos. - Different types of chaos. - Like I turn it into like, I feel like this seven-year-old just like running around the room and like dancing with them, like, you kind of, you kind of like start getting lost in your own hat. Like, I'm there for it. - Well, Aaron's doing full choreography through the entire session. - Yeah. - 100%. - Yeah, I'm just, I'm just like running laps. - I feel like I'm just like running laps around. - Yeah. - It's like running laps and then every now and then it's like her face by my face. - Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - I'm scared, I'm shocked. - I have videos of that happening. - Exactly. - Yeah, she's putting me on the news when she does it. - Yeah, yeah. - I like just running around and then I'm like, "Wait, actually, that should be doubled and we should take the base into blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then you're just like, "Okay." - Okay. - Okay. - There were moments where I would be outside of the room in the kitchen hearing you guys right. And I'm like, I don't know how they're ever gonna get a song. And we wrote like, "Free that." - And we wrote an album. (laughing) - And we did like, "Free that." - Yeah. - I mean, that's-- - Yeah. - I don't even know. - What's also kind of amazing though is the album, which I love and Morgan, who created this podcast with me, is like a deep fucking fan, like listens to it. And listening, it doesn't sound chaotic. - No, it's very serious. - Seriously. (laughing) - It's incredibly serious. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I do think, I definitely think it sounds chaotic. I love how you say that. And then fade is like, "Put up, put up, put up, put up, put up, put up!" - Yeah. - Well, there isn't chaotic. - The most chaotic song. - Yeah, but it feels like it all feels intentional and controlled and, and, it's very good. - Yeah, yeah. - We reeled it in. - Yeah. - We made sure that all of those crazy moments that we had ended up being something that we could use. - Yeah. - Exactly. - On "Trial Star" the album that we're talking about, what is the song that you feel like is the most like you two together? Obviously, I know you wrote many songs together for, but what-- - I would say fade for sure. - You'd say fade. - Easily, yeah. - Yeah, I'd say fade too. - 'Cause we had fade, fade, fade, fade. - Okay, yeah, "Behavioral Pongs" 'cause you brought, he brought behavioral problems to me. But fade was like, when you listen to fade, that is definitely both of our minds. - Yeah, that's true. - You are easily hearing both of our minds. I guess that's not like a great song. That's like, we definitely composed that together. - Cool. - Yeah. - Love that. Where did you do that one at Fassout? Yeah, cool. - Yeah, but yeah, behavioral problems, you kind of came up with the whole concept up. You were like-- - Well, 'cause we were kind of in the middle of tantruming, both of us, you know? - Yeah, and I pushed back and I didn't want to do that because I can't remember 'cause I've like done Rocky songs in the past, like something about it, it just wasn't like clicking with me. And then like, yeah, you like really forced that. Until we wrote behavioral, until we wrote something, and then it wasn't good, and we scrapped that because it just like was not coming out. And then you wrote the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we were like, oh, what if we recycled that old idea and put it on top of the new bass thing? And then we started singing it, and we were like, oh, shit, it actually works. - Yeah, that's my collaboration that's more than one day, more than just a couple of sessions is so important. Because I think that you can hear albums where every song, the pop star, was in with a different group of people. - Yes. - Every song was sent to the pop star by a different group of people. And moments like this would never happen if you guys only did one or two days together. - Totally. - Where you can actually like, okay, we're, we're, it's not like, okay, we're gonna do every single second together, but we're like, we're gonna go in deep so you can find those moments where you can go back and refine or change a night completely, change to a whole new idea. - Totally. - Just like, and things that you say the first day, become very apparent, we need to write that the third day. - Yeah. - Now, when you said child star needed a tantrum, did you have the name? Did you know that album was gonna be called child star early on? - At that point, I think we knew childs. - Yeah. - We knew we were working on childs. - She came in with such a clear vision of what it was going to be that it made the game plan of what we were going to do very clear from the very beginning. It was like, she knew that it was child star and it was this and it was these concepts and this concept and we need to cover this and it said, "Okay, what do we have?" And you're like, "Pretty much nothing." (laughing) - Yeah, it wasn't written at all, but I had it completely in my mind. - But that's amazing. - Yeah. - Like, it has to be this, it has to be this, and it has to be this, and I'm like, "Wait." So like, "What are we basing it all on?" - You can't play me some stuff at all. - Yeah, nothing at all. Yeah, we're starting with that thing. - Yeah. - Yeah. - What is the song that the two of you worked on on child star that you think was like, the hardest, I'm gonna start with you. Was there a song that was like emotionally hard to tackle or even like, logistically, the hardest to pull off for kind of a question for both of you. What was like, or did it all just go easy-breasing? That's a fine answer, too. - I don't know. - I mean, I definitely got emotional. - I mean, it's-- (laughing) - You know what I mean? I was pretty emotional. - He was crying the whole time. - I was crying the whole time. - No, I don't know. It's, I think I've been doing this so long that I am so, like, I am so organized in my brain of like, sort of like switching into writing mode. So it's very hard for me, I think, to be emotionally challenged in a room. - Wow. - 'Cause like, my brain is just so organized in that way at this point. But, I mean, I definitely cried later in full to emotional things later when I was just like, to myself. And I mean, obviously, brand new was always closest to me, like, concept wise. - Do you wanna say why? You don't have to, but-- - Well, that was something that we also discussed a lot before ever writing the song, because I just always reiterated to you how important the nuance of that topic was to me, which is sort of the experience of, like, early sexualization as a girl, no matter situation, no matter nothing. It didn't have to do a child's heart, it doesn't have to do with anything. And I wanted to talk about that almost objectively, but also emotionally close, where it doesn't have to teeter between either black and white of overcoming this and feeling triumphant, or having it be too shriveled down and small, because it's like, well, these things make me feel strong and empowered, but I also, but, like, I'm questioning why I'm doing, why do I have to do that to feel sexual or woman or any of these things? Or, you know, there's just so many nuance, and I really wanted to nail that, confusing experience. And then also, there was a moment, when we were writing it the second verse, where it was just a full blown poem in my notes app, that we started singing out "Stanza" from "Stanza". I also have this on my voice notes. I still have it, where we all go like, "Wow! That's it!" Got goosebumps and literally fell to my knee. It was like a godly experience because we pull it up and literally not one word changed. It perfectly worked like even like rhyming for the second verse. And I just read it out loud and it worked perfectly. And it was like, yeah, it was a very beautiful moment. There is no cooler feeling than when you're writing a song and like, you killed it. It just like possesses you and you just literally sing down the song. Yeah. Like, and you're just like, what? I didn't write that. That's just it, it's really gentle to me. That's very gentle to me too. It's actually a very spiritual experience. Yeah, you're like, oh, this is what happened when they. It really feels like something comes to you. All right, well. No, but no, it is. If you're lucky, and you're out of fame as we all have god-compliance. It's crazy. People ask me a lot, like, 'cause I used to be in the band for many years. And it's like, do you miss performing? And I'm like, no, because the feeling that you get, when you know that you just made something special with your co-writers, is the same high for me that you get on stage. Like, when you know you kill it in a performance and the audience is going crazy, is the same feeling. Even though when you're writing a song, there is no audience there. Yes. It's not about, thank god for audiences. We'd love you, keep buying tickets, keep listening to music. But it really is like the. I don't need an audience. Speaking into a microphone. But when you're slaying, when you're writing a song, that feeling of when you know something is special is the same high as 10,000 people cheering for you. Totally agree. It's the coolest thing in the world, yeah. It's a very cool feeling. Yeah. Question for both of you. It'll be different answers because you haven't known each other your whole lives. We haven't. What is it for you, Aaron? Like, what is it? A gig or a phase? Because your whole life is your gig. You argue a gig. So it's for you, it's not really a gig. But maybe, maybe there was a gig. Like a phase that in some ways you wish you could erase. But now, like, you know, like, it was a huge. stepping stone and you needed it to become the artist that you are today. And you can leave names out if you want, or drop 'em. I don't fucking care. - Okay. (laughing) - I was once hired to play acoustic guitar in a hotel room for two lovers. - For two lovers? - I was. - I was. - I was. And I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know what was happening at the time. - Oh my. - Wait, what do you hear about this gig? - Okay, so this guy, he calls me who I worked with before. He said, "Hey, listen, I got X amount of dollars for you. You gotta show up to the Hudson Terrace at, you know, at X, it's, you know, 9 p.m. And I thought the Hudson Terrace was like a music venue. - You thought it was like city winery. - That sounds like it, that sounds like a music venue. - Okay, well, it's a hotel as well. - And so you're like, okay, the lobby. - Yeah, the lobby. - Right, so I'm like the lobby. And like I was like, oh, you're the guy, right? Like when I got there, you're the guy. And I was like, me, well, I'm not the guy, you know? So I went, I went, I need to pause for one second. What fashion era are you in? - Do you look like this? - This. - Okay, how long is the hair? - The hair is shoulder length. - Is, are we in handle bar mustache? - No. - Clean face. - So you look a little bit more normal. - Yes. - Okay, 100%. I'm like a, just a singer, songwriter on the street with an acoustic guitar. - With a vest. - Okay. - With a vest, that was the thing. - Yeah. - You were, it was a long time ago. - Okay. - So, so during the vest era, which I had a lot of great fest, let's be honest. So I go to the, I go to this place, it's a show up, I got my stuff, my gear, and my acoustic guitar, the guy goes, oh, you're the guy, the guy at the front desk. I go, is this, tell like what's going on? Like I'm assuming I'm going up into a room, go up to the room, rose petals everywhere. - Oh, my God. - And, no, no, but let me just tell you something. Going back to your original question that really launched my career. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? - So wait. - Like I knew love songs were for me. - I was like the turn. - Yeah, love song. So you, you, how long was your set? - Well, it was an hour, but then it was an hour, but then I was offered more money to stay, which I took. - Wow. - Did you stay to have sex with them or stay to keep playing? - No, they had sex. - Wow, you played it. - Yes. - Wow. - The best moment, what, thank you. This is the greatest gig story I've ever heard in my life. - Thank you. - And it really, I just knew that I was meant for music. - Wait, our producer Morgan has a follow up question. - I have a very impressive question. - Yeah. - What is the most important thing that you want to highlight in my hair? - Yes, I did have streaks in my hair, yes. (laughing) Yes, I did. But not the time where they used to pull the things out of the cap. - The cap? - No, that was a different, that was long before that. So these were just highlights. So you have highlights in your hair. - Highlights, yes. - In your short-length hair. You're wearing a vest. - Yeah. - And you're in a hotel. - I was also a mysterious button down shirt. (laughing) - Was this button down shirt like vintage or was it like from like structure? - No, it was like a express. (laughing) You know what I mean? - Express for men, I was on the job. - Express for men, yeah. - I was on the job. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - Okay, Grace. (laughing) - Grace, Grace, do you feel like you can contribute? - I just have to say, I have such a picture in my mind. I know it's the detail really painted something. - And I'm happy that was inspiring for you. - You really did it for you. - I'm really happy that was inspiring. - I wouldn't be the songwriter if it wasn't for that. - Yeah, and you know what? Like there's something to be said about just seeing it through. - You know? (laughing) - You know what I'm saying? - You're taking it through. - You took the gig. - You saw what was going on. You said I'm here. - I'm already here. - I'm here. - Did you, I'm so sorry. I have one last question. I'm so sorry to interrupt you, Grace. Did you like play covers or all originals? Okay, good question. Thank you. - Hardball stuff. - The set went long. - The set went long and I did extra stuff. So it started with my original music. - Yes, it started with the original. - And then I ran out, you know what I mean? - Once they offered me more money, I was like, oh, we're gonna have to do covers. - So what were the covers? - Yeah. - Bloodbird, like, yeah, like stuff like that. - Britney Spears, give me more. - No, I didn't know anything like that on acoustic guitar. So it was like, it was stuff that wasn't as sexy as it should be. But it was nice. - Did you ever trouble water? - Yeah, I did like stuff like that. I did like, you know, I did like an Otis Freddie song. I did a Marvin Gaye song, but I made it up. (laughing) - You know what I mean? Like, I didn't know it ahead of me. - Like, you know what I was like half the chorus. - Who I could do, let's get it on. I was like, mm, and I was like, mm, mm, mm, really? And I just kind of made it up. - Were they laughing or were they like serious? - No, they were having sex into it. - They were having sex. So they didn't really care that much. So it was fine. But every now and then I would make eye contact with either of them. And it was something special. - I felt, I felt like to this day connected. - That's really how they are. - Like, are you guys Facebook friend? I don't look. So I'm gonna say no comment on that. - Do you think we'll see this? (laughing) - Imagine, like, babe, that's us. - That's us. - That's us, that's us. - Yeah, well, they're probably divorced. - Yeah. - Honestly, I don't think it's-- - I think that's the grounds for a long lasting relationship. - Yeah, actually, I think you're right. It's either they're-- - They're not a memory to remember forever. - I was here for it. - Either it's the greatest relationship of all time or they murdered each other. - Yeah. - That's what I'm saying. - Just suicide, maybe. - Yeah, yeah. - It could have either way. Or they're, like, amazingly progressive and just, like, living their wildest dreams. - Yeah, I choose that one. - But I don't know. I actually don't know. - I love them. - I love them. - I love them. - Yeah. - That sounds like, that's the kind of love I'm looking for. - Yeah. - I love them that I'm looking for. - Don't you write a song? - Yeah, guys, should we write a song for that right now? - Grace, do you have a phase or an era? - I mean, I don't think that anything could ever, ever go. Like, even honestly, I think that, like, I'm still processing. - Yeah, we can move on. We can move on. - Come from that couch right now. - I feel like Morgan, this is a good lesson to learn that question could be so juicy. We need to move it to the end of the conversation. - Yeah. - Because we have peaked. We might, it's all downhill from here. - In editing, we might use things. We might, we might, people were watching. This is like most replayed for that right here. We might need to move this too. It'll be the bumper at the start of the episode. And then he'll have to wait till the very end. - This is the tease. - Yeah, this is the tease. - Yeah. - To get people into it. Very similar to your couple. - Yeah. - It's mysterious. (everyone laughing) - That you were the tease and then the main event. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Exactly, history keeps itself. - Okay, just because there's no way to survive such a great answer, let's just totally switch gears. What's your favorite boy band song? - Well, I mean, in an R era, you could not admit. Yeah, your, your microphone has a go. - I know, it's kind of crazy, but I'm kind of in tune because it's kind of like a fidget. It's like, hey, you know, it's very distracting. - Okay, sorry. (everyone laughing) - It definitely was in sync over Backstreet Boys. Ah, I just liked the songs better. Which, like what, because a lot of the in sync and Backstreet were both written by Max. Yeah, I think my favorite song was probably, was, I think the title is Gone, which is. ♪ I don't know who wrote Gone, can someone Google who wrote Gone? ♪ - I'm sorry, no. - Don't, yeah, that one. - What year were you born? - I feel like such a baby right now. I was born in 2004. - Oh yeah, this is way past, you know. - Yeah, I know. - This is classic rock. - What? This is classic rock to you. No, no, what were songs that, what was it first like pop star that you were able to not like one from the past that your parents loved. - Yeah, like someone who's really prevalent for me. - And you're, who was your first? - Rihanna, Katie Perry. - Well, that's, you're like young, young, that's crazy. Like Rihanna, like really blew up when I was like 25. - Yeah, but you're old, old. - No, it's from 45, yeah. - No, yeah, those were like the main, but I'm very happy with the team of pop stars that I grew up with. It was a con, it was a con. - It was a con. - It was all honestly the best girl. - Katie Perry, god god. - Nicky Minaj, Selena Gomez was at her fucking, she was like doing sex symbol, doing her thing. - Yeah. - She was like a big like gay awakening for me. I was like, oh, I definitely like girls too. I definitely like girls too. - What was your big Selina moment? - Like a memorable moment from her to me. - Well, that was like, well, that was a gay awakening. - Okay, so there's a specific thing that I'm thinking of right now, and it was something like radio, (laughing) - Go on, go on. - So like balls, right? It's just like sitting in her room, like watching this. And it was some like, she did some like, Bollywood shit. - Come and get it, come and get it. - And she did this whole thing, and I was just like, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - This is amazing, this is beautiful. This is a masterpiece. I was like looking up to the TV, it felt like the TV started levitating and started looking up at it. (laughing) No, she is, she is one of the most beautiful people ever formed. Yes, sometimes in sessions with her, I'm just like, fuck, how can I just have your face for just like two hours, just to see what I could pull off with that face. Like I could probably be president, start looting, yeah, yeah, yeah, come and get it is a great fucking song. Yeah, that's a great song. Stargate and Esther Dean, Queen Esther Dean, who also wrote a lot of the Rihanna song. She did. I see that. Good boy. She did. What's my name? Tamarine. What's my name? She did. Tamarine. She did. That's what you put. Can I just have a look? The rude boy is so good. You're like, yeah, the tambourine. Tamarine is crazy. The tambourine is unbelievable. The tambourine is incredible. You think of the tambourine. Everyone doesn't think of the tambourine in good boy. What are we talking about here? They're really the most amazing thing. What are we doing? I don't know. You're like, yeah, the tambourine goes crazy. Oh, it goes nuts. When is there even a tambourine in real life? It's just a good choice. It's tasteful. I just imagine like I. I have to believe you. Oh, exactly. And you're like, oh, your head goes. What? And you're like, why does it do that? I know. I don't know. I'm going to have to listen to it, boy. The second this is over here, the tambourine. We have to really listen to that song. I do not remember a tambourine in there. You're going to die. You're going to die. You're going to be like, it's the tambourine. Okay. Okay. So every podcast we do, a question of like of of songs that ruined my life, meaning that the song was like, you were young and the song was so fucking good that you're like, I have to make music and therefore my life is ruined forever. Yeah. Probably like a Hannah Montana's old. What's that one? If this, if you were a movie, then I'd be the right guy. And you'd be the, I'd be like, I was just like. You're like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. So true. So true. What was it, was it Hannah Montana for you? It was not a Hannah Montana for me. No. It was an adult. And that would be terrifying. No, it wasn't. You know. I was fitting. Something that really just absolutely flipped me on my head was the boys to men cover of yesterday. And that like did something for me on two levels. Yeah. That kind of like changed my perspective on what I could make. Because I loved yesterday by the Beatles. I loved it. I mean, of course, it's in one of the best songs of all time, one of this. But then when I heard boys to men do it, I was like, wait a second. You can just do songs any way you want. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I had a song like that too, actually. And I couldn't believe it. They literally changed everything for me. Yeah. And I remember like, at this time, I was just kind of looking at songs. Like, I mean, songs have always been easy for me to write. Like, it's easier to just like write, honestly, like verse pre-chorus chorus. Like, just like a little like cutesy like pops on like, it's like whatever. And I heard I remember I was like probably 14. I heard bad religion by Frank Ocean. And I was just like notes can be surprising. I mean, I in my band days, I had four different records. I was signed and dropped for different times. So the label experiences are always really fun. I'm fulfilling, rewarding, equal. I feel like my version of what success is changes every day. Do you guys remember what your idea of success was to you when you were young? And how has it changed now? Oh, wow. I think for me personally, always my barometer for success was writing the biggest song in the world. But it's changed so drastically that now I just want a song to live after I'm long gone. And for people to be listening to for years after I'm not here. I think that for me is actually the router of success, which was a weight lifted off my shoulders too. Yeah. Because I don't have to worry about it really. Right. You're like, I just hope beyond me. Listen. It's I will be dead. If it happens in 200 years, it happens in 200 years, everybody's going to be fine with that. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like the fascination was like relics. Yeah. Yeah, like I just I'd rather be I'd rather have that as my barometers of success. That's something that was so ahead of its time that was so insane and is big then and means something to future people. Then like me enjoy it right in this moment and get to like you know drink a shitty champagne post about it a lot. Yeah, exactly. So that just one that makes me hate it then then now I hate it. So it's like so it's that's the I think that's how that's how it's changed for me. Yeah. I think like you can tell pretty easily from my brand or looking at what I do that I'm still heavily figuring it out. Kind of all over the place. You know, like it's like heavily heavily fluctuating and changing at all times because you have so many options. Like you can do what you're saying or like more ego based things which are different faucets of pressure on that too because like obviously commercial success is like attractive to a lot of people and attachments around you. And stuff like that and you know I feel like a lot of us are in this weird position of kind of choosing and at the end of the day you're a human being I'd be lying if I don't have a ego obviously it's in front of a camera like it would be crazy to say that. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean I think I don't know is a really honest answer though. Yeah. That's really that that's it. Yeah. Yeah. We do it for something else too I think I think you know it's like you think you end up really writing for that day that you have writing the song. Oh, I write to stay a lot. Yeah, exactly. It's for that day. It's for it's for that like whatever happens is like up to all the other people. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much what I mean. Well, the industry has changed so drastically that like since gatekeepers don't really exist anymore. There is no way to control the success. It's just going to what's going to happen. Yeah, you can only cultivate. You can you can cultivate and like push to you know what I'm saying? Carbure momentum. I feel like but you can't make something out of nothing. You can't when you can't the days of like okay some massive label has decided this is the best song they have right now. They're going to pour a bajillion dollars into it. It doesn't mean it's going to be a hit anymore still. So so basing your success, basing with your idea of success on that huge hit is crazier to do than it ever was because there's no way to guarantee what it hit is. Oh, yeah, that's a fast track to depression. To sit it's that and now so many songs that are hits are actually like five years old. Yeah, 35 years old. Yeah, that inspires me. I love hearing things like I hit and they're like did you know that was really and I was like really? Yeah, so all of my songs are going to be some ashes in 27 years. Everything is a number one. Just give it time. Just give it so. What would you for you, what would you wish you could tell yourself when you were on stage in America's Got Talent. You what do you wish you could tell yourself when you were like in your dad's studio, Aaron's dad is one of the most legendary sax players of all time and Aaron grew up in a studio. For Aaron, what do you when like all these like big producers, big artists are coming into the studio when you're younger and trying to hustle like what is things at this point in your life that you could like have told yourself when you were younger. Good question. It's Morgan's question. Have to give her credit. Good question. I don't know. I probably would. If I traveled back in time, first thing, my like 14 year old self would be like, who the fuck is that? Because of my face. So let's just explain that a little bit. Well, look at my face. So like, you know, like I was like I was shaving every day, you know, at 16. Right. And so like a chin. The first thing I would say. I haven't seen your chin in a year. I haven't seen this. Let me touch it. So the first thing I would say is that you don't have to shave. They like you without shaving. Okay, done. Grace. That's it. Are you like growing a beard at 16? I had like a five o'clock shadow at like 16, 17 year old. Yeah, and it was awful. You do have a good foundation. I feel like someone like you has to have the foundation forever 'cause like some people can't get you just, you don't cut the building blocks. It was awful. I hate it. I wanted to rip my face off. I was like, I wish, I never grew hair on my face. Really? 'Cause I think it would be an insecurity to like not be on your face. I wanted to start turning my eyebrows. I tried to wax stuff. Like, I swear to God, it's right on your eyebrows. Are you kidding me? What do you think I am? That's crazy. Of course I did. Wow, the character of the element is crazy. Wow. Look at you now. Oh, and I would, I would just go back. I'd say, hey, 14-year-old Aaron, the hair is fierce. You don't have to worry about any of that shit in there. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't change anything. Weird facial hair. Yeah. And I'd say that's amazing. It'll be your calling card. Maybe like I'd be like, get out of my house. My mom is coming down. Yeah. Say something like that. Yeah. I think it's great advice for everyone watching. Yeah. Everyone watching. Don't shave and try to make money. Yeah. That's wonderful. I love it. I love it. I love it. Okay, so to end these, we always play a little game that Morgana invented, which is called gagged or dragged, but you, so you, it's like rapid questions, right? Rapid-fired questions. Okay. So I'll name something. You see either gag. You love it. Okay. Dragged. It's terrible. Yeah. Or you just gagged. You love it so much. Oh. Gagged. Dragged. Or we, we, we have learned while playing the game. There has to be a third option, which is just meh, like you don't really feel strong about it either way. Okay. Okay. Okay. Are you ready? You clearly are these making a comeback. Drag. You're over it. Over it. Yeah. I agree. Dragged. What is this? It's been there. So that's like saying like fedoras and moustaches are coming back. Okay. Relax. Yeah. Half of it. Half of that. That's like you. You stupid beanies and all beards and long hair is coming back. The door is. Yeah. I think also the name air in pre-stupid. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me just say that during the best period, there was a fedora period in a micro. There was a micro time during that. But it was a little trickery. I mean, I got famous with the ukulele. Right. Something served their purpose. Are you talking about me? - Something served their purpose, we both say drag, okay. - Okay, okay, Jack. Singing in a fake accent. - Guy. - Guy. (laughing) - I wish more people didn't. - I wish more people didn't. - In a bitch, she starts going, do you know what? And I'm just like, yep. - Yeah, oh yeah. - Yeah. - Sometimes you know her singing, they say, can't. I say, can you say, can't? - Or when, or when, or when, God, I'm just sort of like speaking French in German, and her songs, I'm just like. - I can't. - I can't. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - 'Cause I don't know what you're saying. - I don't know what you're saying. - You're not like punks. - Speaking tongues, yes, correct. - Yeah. - Okay, I love it. Playing air bass. - Gag. - Gag. - I think it's a gag. - 100%. - Yeah. - Aaron, could you demonstrate air bass? - Yes, well, I mean, how stinky is the part? - Oh, it is. - I think it's foul. - It's foul. - It's disgusting. - It's disgusting. - It's disgusting. - It's disgusting. - It's disgusting. - Is it like, it's the deepest pocket. - Anyone's ever. - Is it like. - Yeah, yeah. - It's like, no. - Yeah, it's like, no. - It's like, no, no. - It's like, get away. - No, no. - It's like, get out of my house. - Yep. - Oh. - Yeah. - Is it like, okay. - Yeah, okay. - All right. Good job. - Got it. - Okay. - Okay, just wondering. - Okay, just wondering how to get out that out of the way. - People like genres that are clearly trying too hard when someone's like sad core bedroom pop or post-traumatic stress pop. Like, how do you feel that these new genres that are popping up all over? How do you feel about it? Gag or drag or meth? - I don't think it's a little gaggy. It's just like-- - It's gaggy. - It's just like, you know what, hop in the trend and get your bag. Like, I would do it too. I don't know, I guess I wouldn't. - I think you just make-- - I was like, well, you know that you're an artist. You could. - I'm just saying, you know, I'm a believer if something's on the table, might as well grab it. - Yeah. Also, if you have the ability to create your own genre, even if you just made it up five seconds ago. - That's kind of cool. - That's pretty sick. - I think that's cool too. - I love it. - Okay, last gag or drag or meth. Music industry people executive specifically, who say things like, we love authentic storytelling. - Hmm. - Hmm. (laughing) - I think you already know the answer. - Well, but I want to hear it. - Drag. - Yeah. - Drag. - Drag talking to anyone about music ever that isn't creating the music with me, honestly. - Yeah. - Basically, if anyone makes any comment that I didn't make it with, I'm just like, okay. (laughing) - So where's your song? - Yeah, exactly. - Because you went better. - Yeah, did you want to write me my smash hit? (laughing) - Yeah, now this is going to be a number one in 27 years. (laughing) - You go to all that, you go to all that. - You go to all that. - That was really nice. - Thanks. - Yeah, okay, to end it with a little bit of advice for anyone who's watching or listening who is trying to collaborate in any, medium, and any genre. What is one piece of advice that you would give to people about collaboration? - Don't be a dick. (laughing) - Yeah, great. - You know? - Yeah. - Just be nice. - To other people. Treat other people the way you want to be treated. - Yeah. - Totally. Also, oh my gosh, Brad with his don't be a dick. (laughing) - Oh my God. - Don't be a dick. - Look at that, zoom in. - Wait, hold it up, hold it up. - Don't be a dick. - Guys, so are we gonna monetize this hat? - We should be paid for this. - You know what, don't cut this out. - Totally, I don't like that. - Grace isn't getting paid for this and she has learned that lesson. - I don't hold products. I'm not getting paid for. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I was in a session with an artist last week and suggested a lyric that involved like a brand name and she was like, are they gonna pay me? And I was like, fair. - Honestly, that's gag. - That's gaggy. If someone genuinely says that like full-bones serious face, I'm like, honestly, I'm trying to be like you. - Yeah, well, maybe we should write it and then have your manager call that. - Wait, yeah, also like music video. Like if you did that, you could make the music video and just like fucking pump that shit with all of, you know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - She actually missed a good opportunity. - She did. - Drag. (laughing) - No, don't be a dick is a really good one. Also, this is a small industry and it's so likely you'll run into that. Same person again if you're like, you know, being a con. - Yeah. - So yeah, I would agree. I'd say the same. - I love it. Amazing. You guys were way too much fun. - Thank you for having us. - And amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, Aaron and Grace. (clapping) - La. - La. - Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.