Gordon Ramsay: The Golden Rule That Made the World's Most Iconic Chef

(soft music) - I'm done with that bullshit about, and it's staying your lane. I want to own my lane. - That is how this conversation starts. No warm up, no fluff, just Gordon Ramsay, as you would expect him, Raw, honest, totally unapologetic about what it takes to succeed. And I think this is one of my favorite ever conversations on the show. Gordon opens up like you've never heard, like I wasn't expecting. Of course we know he's a perfectionist, we know that he's relentless, we know that he's had to make sacrifices for his success. But the drive that you see from Gordon Ramsay didn't come from seeking fame or fortune. The truth is it actually came from struggle, from growing up with nothing, being embarrassed at school, losing his dream of playing football, turning all of that into fuel. And sadly you weren't available to have this conversation with us Damien, but when you listen to it, I mean there are a few things that stood out for you that you really think are important, right? - Well there's some really special moments, like I love the brutal personal cost, the perfection that he describes. And the critical philosophies had to adopt to survive his darkest moments and become a solution solver. And finally, the bit I'd encourage you to listen out for is his real for dealing with brutal criticism and the crucial difference between earned confidence and the arrogance that will destroy you in a high pressure kitchen. - This is an all time classic episode of high performance and what it takes to own your lane in any field. Please hit follow and apple or Spotify and you'll never miss an episode as we welcome Gordon Ramsay to high performance. (upbeat music) - I'm done with that bullshit about staying your lane. I want to own my lane and that's high performance on a daily basis. I need that shot. I think it's one of the most exciting industries to be in, as a restaurant chef cook whatever you want to call it. But there's also the shit end of the stick. There's the double chefs and defrosting frozen food and sticking shit in a fryer. That's the lower divisions of food and I is determined to get the fuck out of there early. 'Cause when you start in this industry, you go through those divisions. I remember a chef back in Stratford upon Avan where I grew up was showing me how to make a roast potato and he was peeling the potatoes, blanching them in the deep fat fryer and then sprinkling fucking bobble dust over the top. And that was the roast potato. So that scared the shit out of me and I think you need to have both ends of the spectrum to understand high performance. But it's about climbing that division and owning it. - So I'm interested where the understanding of what your capable of comes from. Can you remember the first time that you saw or missed saw the possibilities that life can offer if you actually go for something? - Yeah, that's a good question. I think when I stood alongside Marco, Marco Piawai, yeah, for two years and side by side, 16 hours a day, relentless. Because I was in that pursuit of perfection and this guy put food on a plate like Picasso. And I wanted to get that level of discipline. And so Marco was up north with some food critic away for the weekend and for some unknown reason, I can't remember, he couldn't come back to the restaurant to open it after the holidays and we'll sudden I was in charge and he was on the phone every two minutes explaining what to do, but I knew what to do, but I'd never been given the reins. And at 22, when you're dropped in the shit like that, it's single swim. So I didn't really understand the amount of pressure. I was under at that particular time. But what I did see was empty plates coming back from the restaurant. And it was a high-octane, two-mission stara establishment and every customer was licking their lips. Every customer couldn't quite believe how good the food was. And it was that moment, shit, Marco's not here, but what he's given me and taught me, I've just replicated. Now I need to become individual. I need to step away from what he's shown me. And I need to search for my own DNA. But you already though had something because you don't end up in a Marco Pierre White kitchen unless you were already grafting, chasing perfection, thinking that you actually deserve to be there. Even further, I know you play football as a young guy. Was this mindset that Gordon was destined for something there when you were 12, 13, 14, 15? Who was the tough one? I was hungry. I was in pursuit of something to better myself. It's interesting when you grow up with a disadvantaged child. The time you don't know, it's that bad. But there is embarrassing moments at school where you're caught out to do the photographs. And you've got to go with the family because I had my brother and my sister at the same school because you weren't allowed to do it individually because your parents would never pay for that. And then there was an embarrassment every day when you went into the refactory for lunch. We had lunch and bouches. And there was a separate queue. And so it was like, council house, kids on the left-hand side and posh kids on the right-hand side. And that gave you a complex. That gave you a sort of a stern warning to get your shit together. So I think that's what helped shape me for that level of hunger to get focused because I wasn't embarrassed about what my mum put on the table. I was embarrassed about the way it was segregated in the way that you were made to feel separate from the classroom because your mum and dad couldn't afford to give you any money for school lunch. But also a lot of people will see you as the hugely famous, hugely successful chef. And not maybe know that story. When you think about how hard those days were, where does your mind take you back to if you're happy to share? Yeah. Actually, how difficult it was. Yeah, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for those moments. There was no distractions in those days. So you sort of clung on to anything, the shiny. And spending time with my mum at work, getting into this little tiny restaurant, helping a prep vegetables was a godsend that was before football practice that was after school. But also just growing up and watching her handle three jobs. Chris is mourning one of the most exciting mornings for a kid across the year should be that moment seeing your mum and dad. But I didn't see my mum because she was out working. So you then understand just how hard life can be. And you don't walk around looking for a pity party. You just want to you want to bet you a set off. You want to put a new benchmark under the name Ramsey and create something different. How did you take the mindset of, because anyone that has that early on, there is a moment where they think, why is this my life? Why do I have challenge? How did you go about turning those negative experiences into into positive action? Yeah, I've always been a solution solver. I've never sat there. Even at that age, even because I got involved with sport early on. And so I was super fit, good at what I did. And I think having a chance to get involved with football at a high level, and that's been taken away from you, it was a big blow. And so you don't sit there and become better for the rest of your life. It's just dust yourself down. Mum always told me, deal with it. Get on it early, get your priorities right. Focus on what you want out of life. And so those traits still sit there daily. Even today, what do you want out of today? What's the solution when we get problems? So growing up and watching the destruction that my father was creating, and he taught me in many ways how to become a great father by doing the opposite what he showed me. And so I was desperate for that chance to get out of that mess and create something special for myself. What sort of father was he? Didn't really get on with him in a way that he, in many ways, was maybe some fantasy of failed musician, but he was into music, played with the multi-wilds, had these band did records, et cetera. But I remember on multiple occasions we were going in and out bars, lumping gear every saturday night and then sat watching him. And it was never a fun evening, because as the drinks got bigger, the room got ficed here and all of a sudden you're sort of rushed out in the back of a transit ban and you're sort of disappearing. So I never really had that connect with him. We never really bond it. We never really spent a lot of time together. So I make up that now having two sons, Jack and Oscar. And so we learned from the defaults, don't you? And Mum was my mother and father, because that's how strong she was. And that's admirable for my woman. That was the connect that I didn't envisage because I never thought I'd be looking towards my mum for dads incompetence. And she filled that void, beautifully. And that's an amazing bond when you got that with your mum. And you mentioned football at an early age. You were playing at Rangers. And you said it gets taken away from you. Your career was ended really early on by injury, right? Rapidly. Yeah, as a fiddle, six foot two, naturally they're footed. Very, very few individuals got passed me. And so I was, yeah, as a team train. I remember playing at a testimonial for the first team. Got my first call up. And of course, you're just broken into the first team. He was playing for Scotland under 21s. I was 18 at the time, taking with Pearson, just got his first big call up. And so all of a sudden, you're in this amazing team. You're on the sheet. Your name's there. Number three on the back of the shirt. And I went in for this 50/50 tackle. And it was crunch. And I laid there in such pain, tore my crucial ligament and smashed my cartilage. Then we didn't have private healthcare. You didn't get whist off to Germany for the latest surgeon. You're on the rubbish heap, you're in the scrap heap. Because there's four or five guys behind me, instantly to take my place. That was devastating. Then I came back down to Bambri in Oxford, I lived in a council flat with my sister and then got into college, got into catering as a way of becoming independent and moving further away from the upset that was in my mind a daily basis. How painful was that? Brutally painful, especially when your mates are making it and they're progressing and you're seeing the headlines, you're purchasing, I'm watching the news, you're purchasing, not finding out the scores at five to five on a Saturday afternoon because you want to move away from that. So it was that moment that my mum taught me, dush yourself down, pick yourself up and go again. And then that freedom with the connection with food all of a sudden started to really resonate the sort of the breadth of what you need to understand. And then I got to London. I had to head to London. I had to go into somewhere unique in order to learn unique things because if you want to be one of the best, you need to work with the best. And it's not about money, it's not about hours. You just need to work with the best. Whatever they do, you need to follow suit. That's a short-term investment for a long-term gain. I wondered, you know, whether as difficult as those early years were with your relationship with your dad and you know, as you said, basically humiliation at school, you're in the poor kid's queue, right? Yeah. I wonder whether actually those experiences equip you at the end of your football career to kind of find a way forward to rather, you know, people get derailed for years after that kind of yeah. Well, I had a similar parallel because I could see my father not making it and breaking out in music and not being sought after. Couldn't earn a living and look after the family full time. He's from Foscow on the age of 15 and so he had this incredible, strong sort of sport background. But I could see this failed, you know, music guy that wasn't making it. Money was getting less and less. The gigs weren't coming in and all of a sudden, you know, he ended up playing in crappy bars and sat there with a little pile of CDs which was embarrassing. So I witnessed him clinging onto something that was never going to happen and it was to the family's detriment that they all struggled because of him hanging onto something that didn't provide for the family. And so in many ways, with that shock of having the football taken away and witnessing my dad clinging onto something for too long, it made me more decisive. And in business, you need to be decisive. And so from an early age, I was super on it to what I needed to do to get out the mess that I was born in. Who was the first person that you met, the first chef where you thought that is what I want to be? I'd say Mark Apieu I. When we came down to London for a big exhibition in the industry, it was called Hotel Empire and we came down from the weekend from Bambri and we never got anywhere near a famous chef. The closest we got was to a necker chief belonging to Anton Moseman that was in the last box outside the fucking door test hotel. And we'd drive by this hotel and we were sort of told to get off the bus and go and look at Anton Adelman's white star, Tatt and his necker chief and that was the closest we got. And so think about that. And then standing next to someone like Marco, you're grateful, but you're going to be one of the most talented sponges he's ever had by his side. So you process it quickly when you're on that drive for success. And at this point, what is the drive? Is the drive I want to become successful? Is the drive I want to escape where I've come from? Is the drive I just absolutely love food. I saw a chance. I saw a chance of becoming unique. I think we're all blessed with that in our life somewhere. How did you see that now? I could sense it because it made me ignite. I could see this incredible beginning of something unique. And I think when we look at individuals, big heads in our lives and we want a spa to become them. But when they give you what they've got, all of a sudden, there's this treasure chest of uniqueness. And so that was unfolding weekly. And then there'd be new kids starting in that kitchen. And within 48 hours, they were gone. They couldn't handle the heat. How did that make you feel? Stronger. Yeah, because we thrive on other people's weaknesses in that business. And that's the shellfish thing to admit. But I'm going to be honest with you, we thrive on other people's weaknesses, especially in the kitchen. That gave you hype and it gave you the chest beating moment where you can stand, stand tall. And I used to laugh because we were sure staffed. We'd operate Monday to Saturday, 16, 17 hours a day, Sunday off, you're fucked. I mean, I used to wake up on Sunday midday and I was fucked. I mean, just physically mentally exhausted. We'd live on Lucas Aydin and Mars bars. And then Marco would say, hey, look, we've got four new members of staff starting on Monday. Don't worry. We're going to cut your hours. We're going to start taking half days off during the week and we'll get down to five and a half day week. You think back then, five and a half day week, and that was the dream. But these four guys and girls were walking on Monday morning and we'd have bets who'd be there within 24 hours. They just disappeared. They could not stand the heat. And so they made you stronger. Was there ever a moment where you thought, this is relentless. This is ridiculous. This is not what I thought it was. I can't handle the heat. I'm going to get out of the kitchen. Never. Not once. Fuck no, never. I wanted it. I absolutely wanted it because I could see this opening of escape. I could see the grind, the grit, determination, all paying off. And I was becoming better than forget. So you got to sort of self-reflect a little bit because all of a sudden that mastered a tortellini. I could make beautiful pasta. I understood how to braise short ribs. And so that's the payoff. And when you're not getting that substance back and you're not learning on that level, then it's time to quit. But I was learning so fast. I mean, it was just it was incredible to what I was gaining. When I was a teenager, I lost my grandmaster's suicide, right? Which was so difficult was we were as close as you can get, grandmaster and grandmaster. And then I was wondering, why did life change so much for me straight after that? And I sort of quote not long ago saying, people who've gone through trauma have a fire lit inside them. People who haven't can never quite understand. I'm sort of there's a sense of that now, I think. Yeah, there is. I mean, trauma is a tough word. I mean, I think I put that down to experience because it didn't it didn't take me out. I also had the parallel of my little brother 15 months younger than me as a heron edit. And so I had to constantly remind myself that him and I were mates. Him and I was sleeping in a bunk bed in a council house on multiple occasions. And this kid was always underneath me and messing around and lifting up the bunk bed and literally with these feet moving the fucking thing to the left and you know, hop up to the morning, shaking it. And so we had fun. And so you have to remind yourself that if I don't stand on the straight now, I don't get out of this shit mess. I don't climb that ladder. I don't get good. And I don't start only my own keep if I can't get my own property. If I can't invest in bricks and mortar, that's the result. And so it's a very fresh reminder on a daily basis between your ears. Get your shit together because close to you as an addict. That's on the verge of killing himself. That's your little brother. And then I saw mom's frustration never have a chance to own her own house. And so I think for any woman and guy, securities and bricks and mortar, and we were, we never they never own anything. And so when dad was incredibly drunk, he'd turn the place over and then mom would be left getting super blue, putting all these vases together, her favorite bits of, you know, China. And so at the age of 19, I bought my first flat, a tiny little one bedroom flat in Bambri. And that was my payoff. I felt then that shit, you know, I'm proud. I've got a mortgage. I've got a flat and I've got to make staying there. But I'm also progressing my career. So I was almost in this cycle to sort of better myself too quickly because of the sort of let down I felt for my father. And brilliant that you were able to take those steps forwards, which is kind of that stretch and reward thing. You were getting stretched. You were getting the rewards. It's tiny rewards. Yes, it's a speckle, but it gives you hope. It gives you confidence. You're becoming more into it. And all of a sudden, you start to calculate the benefits because you're outsmarting the shit standing behind you. And then you're sort of you're feeling better. And even at 19, 2021, no matter what happened, I had more security at the age of 19 and my father, I did at 55. And while you were having these small steps forwards, you've also had this, I guess, a North Star for you at the time. Marco Pierre White in the kitchen, guiding you, challenging you, probably no doubt pushing you to your limits. You've spoken so much about him over the years. Yeah. Did you love the idea of arriving green behind the gills in experience in Marco's kitchen and then having a new head that one day, I'm going to be a better chef than you. Yeah, because he wanted you to he pushed you to the extreme. He did that. He drummed it in. You know if you're gonna do it Do it to your best and if you don't want to do it to your best get the fuck out of here Don't waste my time and so you don't waste yours. And I think it's a lot of Life lessons early on because you're getting structured You're getting hungry. You'll get in knowledge and all of a sudden you're becoming a beast because of the monster He created and the monster you're working for and so I see those environments all the time And I say to the individuals stay in that environment get what you need and get out and when the shit is the fan Learn to dance in the storm. It's a great place to be in because somewhere down the line There's gonna be a shit storm on your radar and you're gonna stand tall in that storm and you're gonna get through it And when the storm would come to you in the kitchen. Yeah, what was the best way to get out of that storm? solution Because I was experienced enough to handle it and I'd know There wasn't any area in that kitchen restaurant bar wine stutter that I hadn't tackled and so that's what you go in search off And I knew my weaknesses and that's why stepping into legarosh I'd never baked before but if I'm gonna have my own business I need to know how to bake one pull out the sourdough for cat I need to understand that but I came out of Harvest under Marcos Tenor going into legarosh. I was I was you know Posted to get on the fish in the meat the top two sections But no, I wanted to become my baker because it was one bit that I hadn't under the chemistry of baking so On that trajectory you've got to still find those weaknesses to enhance You know that platform to make sure it is solid so when that shit storm comes you are not depending on anybody because you've got it in your Attenery when you get an arrogant at any point in this period and you didn't to be slapped down Did you remain I think I think I think arrogant? It's the wrong word and it's called confidence And that's misconstrued to those that are less Italian to the new look at that arrogant twat He doesn't like being told no dude. I've got my shit together. I know my shit. You're a dreamer and in this industry like many Industries there's dreamers that want it but haven't got it to commit Haven't got it with mindset having gone it with their broad shoulders and haven't got it in their attitude So young to put that down to confidence Not arrogance. There's a big difference. Jane. So what's arrogance then is arrogance? arrogance is math thing off you can do it and not living up to the fucking potential Can we talk then about hard work attention to detail? Yeah, because everywhere you look everyone tells you I work really hard I pay great attention to detail. Yes, take us into those early years as a chef. What did hard work actually look like? Yeah hard work was that's relentless fifth-sixth gear Standing in front of a tiny team and remaining as an example where your Focusing on their weaknesses offloading everything you've got and Then still finding gears that the team around you never thought You'd have sent examples first in last out Being more personal with the staff in a way that you're showing them how good they can become But they need to commit to being good for as long a period as you can get out of them And that takes a lot of convincing because When you're learning it becomes so much more crucial when that that teacher is inspirational So you can't shut down so I learned to open up early on and then there's this level of unsalphical Chefs of pressures they until you're all souls that are guarded with everything they've got they don't want to give much so I understood the importance of opening up and Talking and showing and then when the sheer is the fan here's why it went wrong This is what we're going to do dust yourself down bounce back and That journey on the way back is so much more rewarding than sitting on top And I said them the mistakes you've just made I made a thousand of them but never the same mistake twice Hard work is just that and then hard work is about beating competition. It's about Being in front of the industry and in our industry You move it or it moves you and customers vote with their feet Jay No one rings you up and said you know what wasn't that good? I'm not coming back. They vote with their feet So it's a stern indicator. I used to look at the waiting list every day and see the waiting list I'll make sure there's a waiting list equivalent It's the entire dying room so we never dropped the ball and it was just a message to every around me Look we got 45 book for dinner and this fucking 45 on the waiting list Understand the importance of making sure we got a backup plan V everyone needs a plan V in life And sometimes there's a plan seeing your head But you never want to talk about it, but you do need it. That's interesting I want to play you a clip when you mention giving back and sharing yes Marcus wearing has been on the podcast before okay, so this is when he joins us and needs right you He just spent three and a half years with Marco White The halfies The rock and roll kitchen that the kitchen that was unlike no other in anywhere in this country that had ever seen Anyone had ever seen before and so he came into Gavrosh with that training that tasting that attention to detail that perfection on the cut in the fish That brilliant supporting food on the plate taste taste taste you look around the kitchen people were tasting food They would just go through a process and that's the one thing that was a point of difference So that was when I say focused on him. I added that into my arsenal just kept adding and adding and adding and just loved and mimic it Because he was mimicking Marco, but Marco was that you I never had the chance to work Marco Interesting yeah mimicking is a good word. I mean, I suppose I was grateful and fortunate that I was given that uniqueness from him and That's going back to what you said earlier about the arrogance. That's why it is In many ways it looks oh my god. How cocky is he? No Trust me there's a price to pay for success You can't buy it But you can't be taught it and I'm done with all that bullshit But it's got to be an idea now you can either non-know your grandma needs to be a great chef That is absolute fucking bullshit But like anything successful you can work at it and I can I can prove that on multiple occasions I have a different technique with young chefs today I teach them how to taste first before I teach them how to cook Because they don't understand how it tastes to perfection. They shouldn't be cooking it So let's talk about the taste factor close your eyes Tell me what that tastes often. So then there's multiple taste tests that is called an education on the palette and then we go to cook So they understand what it tastes like at his absolute Moment of perfection Then we're going to cook it and too many chefs cook first And they start tasting no taste the fucking thing first register where we're going with it and then go back It's the opposite around but it works brilliantly And I think when we when we discuss this story of relentless and attention to detail and focus and drive And I'm all right in thinking that there was a moment where you had to did you take time out and go walk on a boat Yeah, I sort of crammed this sort of six-year incredible culinary uniqueness two-star three-star three-star two-star establishments I was being to a pulp and I was fucked and There's that moment in your mind right time out It's 25 years of age. I didn't have a pot to piss in by the way I had to reverse charges calling my mum which was always embarrassing. I felt so fucking bad But I said mama. I'm reversing the charges because I'm skint. It's what you don't know So I'm going to go and work on a boat. What what why are you going to boat? I said I just need some time out So I got down to Monaco and there's the sort of a yachty world down there And it's it's a beautiful thing to do providing it doesn't suck you in And it's a little bit like the raw below deck if you thought the below deck today. You should have seen it Fucking 20 years ago is it was it was it was ridiculous and I got into this amazing boat with this wonderful owner Private man beautiful man called Reg Grundy At the time he had Cellared century and neighbors as his big hits Australian and he was based in Bermuda and he wanted a personal chef So it was the most glorious 12 fucking months my entire life because What I was doing in this tiny galley to as a day was a fraction what I was doing But all his knowledge was going back to him and he wasn't Didn't want to find I need just want to read good food cook beautifully. Here. I was in this situation Cash positive, but it wasn't enough on this glorious yachts working for this amazing owner I wanted then to be put to the test I needed to be under the spotlight and that's where I came back and I opened my first restaurant I was you at the age of 27 and that was set up through marco's contacts He had these Italian partners and I got given 25% of a restaurant I knew jack shit about a peanut. I didn't understand how to run a business, but I could certainly cook and so It turned out I'd been given 25% of debt because this restaurant has failed massively and so you learn quickly But man this tiny little beast road at the back of beyond a full-on-road went from this Little shit hole to this two-star Michelin Six months fully booked an advanced restaurant that was just a little powerhouse And then I started pissing people off the big wigs in the two and three star Michelin establishments in these hotels because this tiny little restaurant With a basement kitchen which looked like a fucking hellhole Half the size of this thing the nowhere near as glamorous as this and It was powerful. We went from zero to two stars in three years. What was the secret? The secret was the lightness I had garnered this technique of cooking Hot cuisine with very little cream very little butter, but delivered something unique and nobody was doing through like that. No one was Along that style we were We were uniquely individual because it was, you know, using beautiful poaching methods and then grilling them after we were aerating sources and it was just it was light, it was unique and it was attractive, really attractive. There's a recurring theme as well here though about following your instincts, following your gut, you know, you, the football doesn't work out and you go down you and roll in technical college and you sort of follow your gut there and then you go and do various culinary jobs, meet Marco and your gut tells you there's something this guy can teach me. You knew when to take a step away and go and walk on a boat, you knew when to come back to London and to do this and you also very cleverly understood that what people wanted on their plates at that point and you also had to follow your gut when Obergine ended, right? Yeah, I mean I wanted security for myself, you know, we couldn't be needing more successful with two star Michelin on the verge of getting three but I had no ownership and then I realized that I'm fucking done working for the people. I got to commit and I want to work for myself and then you risk it all again. Ton and I bought our first flat together and I had to convince her that I need the money, the equity to give the bank security because there's only a three year lease at Le Tont Clare, the restaurant we were buying for Ression Gordon Ramsay and the banks told us to fuck off. There's no way we got security on that. There's no head lease, there's no validity in this thing so it doesn't make sense. I said, "It will do because I've got all this knowledge, I'm going to get three stars." No, no. You're improving. So that really got me riled to come back with an answer. Fuck it. I'm going to put everything I've got into this business and it will work. So that was the moment where I asked for patience from Tana. We just had our first baby, Megan and it was shit or bust and there's that moment again. But I've been there several times in my life. How did you know it would work? Because I've been there several times in my life. I had bounced back my adversity as a youngster. I was faced with shit and embarrassment going to see my parents. I was protecting my mum and benowing to my father. So all these little caveats make this big meaningful purpose that I knew I was going to make it. To walk away from that restaurant, to risk your flat with your wife with your newborn child, there's a lot on your shoulder at that point. I'm interested in where the little dissenting voice, the doubt, the imposter syndrome, the fear. What role were they playing? Success needs and then the lining level of jeopardy. And there's no success anywhere on the world that hasn't got jeopardy. I striped perfection. My life is about high performance and when I haven't got that high performance, I need to up the jeopardy because that's what creates. And when I go into these situations and it's all safe and easy and a piece of cake, I'll turn it upside down purposely to create a little bit more drama, a little bit more jeopardy to keep my toes. That's self perpetuated. So you'll never see that because you won't know what level I'm turning it up or dialing it in or dialing it down. You know, though, there's a conscious decision that I need to put something in my life here. I want that because I don't want it all playing sailing. I think that's the bit that I was never in doubt. I had five years success at OBGYN and so Rollos Road was definitely going to work. I didn't take things to grant it. I just wanted to prove the point because I had disgruntled backers that were screw me at the time. I had 25% of the success that I created that was getting sort of trodden on and I had nothing to show for it. So again, you turn it up, dial it in and I remember going to the bank. I think it was the bank of Scotland and I said, look, we're going to operate in Monday to Friday, just like the Tom Klaer and these four guys and two women said, you're closing Saturday Sunday is your busiest days. I said, no, fuck off. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I mean, my busiest days. I don't know, but there's no restaurant that will ever succeed unless it's open for Saturday and Sunday lunch. I'm like, Sunday fucking lunch. Who's cooking Sunday lunch? I'm going to be off. So that's why they literally ignored the business plan. Didn't want to invest in it. Didn't want to give me. I think it was only asking for like half a million pound. I'd saved something like 350,000 pounds, which doesn't seem a lot, but then it was fucking huge. But Pierre Goughman, this amazing Frenchman, he let me pay half the money on year one and the second half the money year two out of cash flow. One of the most generous strokes I've ever seen by a Frenchman. And so I never forget that moment. No, because they're tight bastards. And they are mental ship thing again. It's something stepping up for you. Incredible. And had he not done that? I would have been fucked. I've never have made it. So there was the double age sort of, you know, pain him back and not him getting access to the lease again. And so there was so much Jeopardy. I'll go back to the point about I enjoyed the jeopardy because I needed that level of shit. It's got to work. So that propels you even more with the velocity of jeopardy. And it's really important in our lives to keep that jeopardy because it really does make you perform automatically. And very few businesses understand the word jeopardy. Is that why TV was attractive? Because it was another challenge. Oh, fucking hell. I mean, TV for me back then, it was boiling point. That was not TV. That was that was brutal. That was a documentary, you know, the following the pursuit of trying to stand on your two feet. By the way, I started to watch that before the ship. No, Jake, Jesus Christ, you've got too much time. Anywhere you didn't let the cameras go. I mean, well, listen, you know, I was a proper reality TV. I mean, I got, I mean, it was ironic because amazing, lady called Patlerwell and who founded, you know, the Naked Chef and two fat ladies and kitchen nightmares. She said, look, you know, what would you want me to do with you? There's boiling point and there's the Naked Chef. We got this Essex kid sliding down a fucking bandester, lovely, jubbly throwing the train and fuck off for a game of golf, come back and stuff your face. And you got you running around. Like a fucking idiot with your head cut off screaming everybody. I said, yeah, but searching for three stars said, you need to stick to what you could at. And that's perfection. And so it was interesting because I was so naive. I had no idea what that fucking microphone meant because I forgot the cameras. And people say, why do you get so upset? No, that's the same. We're on or off camera. That's me. I'm not going to play up for the sake of it. I'm passionate about what I do. Did you need that to get the three stars? Or if you did sit and watch it back now, would you be going, I didn't need to like that to be successful? ITV called me into a viewing a week before boiling point was going out. And it was on Channel 4 then. It was the ITV were making it. ITV's two was making it for Channel 4. And I sat in this, it was like the little fucking mini cinema. There was like teas, coffees, biscuits, I had a packet of fig, I thought, shit, this is amazing. And then I turned around in the room on my own. There's a booth of the glass wall and I could say a couple of execs back there. So I fucking sat back in this chair, fucking screen opened up and then fucking the opening credits went. I went, oh my god. That's enough. Thank you for everything to eat there. I'm out of here. And yeah, I think I shot an egg roll. I literally shot my pants. I couldn't quite believe just how raw that thing was. And I was naive. I was half stupid, but I was in pursuit of something I'd strive for. And there was nothing that was getting in my way. Because everything was depending on where in temporary lodgings we had a tiny little studio. Tana had to stop working then because of Megan we couldn't afford any home help. And so every dish I was sending, I was focusing on that jeopardy. Again, it's the jeopardy that keeps me buoyant to creating a high performance mechanism. Some may say that's a little bit too far, but I didn't know any different. I'm not blaming anybody because that was all my own self doing. But boiling point, Jesus Christ. What a moment. And it led to what is now an outstanding media career with my background. I find it particularly interesting. I remember you bursting on the scene. And as you say, not just very different to Jamie Oliver, right? You were different to everybody. And I wonder, as it started to go and produce, I started talking to you about formats and personalities and having an impact. Like how much did you think about your TV persona? I didn't. Not too. I didn't give a shit. So even when you were going on track shows and like saying outrageous stuff or dropping in the odd swear word, that wasn't just that you weren't thinking how could I have the most impact in this next 10 minutes on this show? I never had those preconceived ideas. Check. You don't go in there with that. I mean, my first breakthrough was Kitchen Imas. And I'd go into these restaurants and they'd let me off the lead at the front of the door, like a fucking sniffer dog. I'd go in there and there's the cameraman, a sound and producer. I'd turn that place upside down. I took those things incredibly personal. And so we'd spend 10 days in this business, turning the chef around, redecorating the place, launching it. And then I'll go back a fucking month later. This is for somebody else's business. And I'm the point I'm like, because I found a somewhere you care about your. Why do you care about that business? But because it wasn't a format for me. It wasn't about IP or format or success. Remember the first program? It was 5.8 million viewers. You know, Channel 4, fucking Kitchen Imas. And so then all the intrusion started. Then everyone wanted to know who you were, what was your background? What makes this guy tick? I'm like, I'm the same on or off. There's no, and I always say there's this celebrity chef moment that we're not. And we're a real chef that works on TV. And so these restaurants then get put back on the map. They go out, viewers flocked these Russians get so successful, but then when they don't work, you get blamed. When the Meg's successful, you don't get any thanks. So, yeah, Kitchen Imez was an important one for me because I think you got to see the nuts and bolts of the industry on how stupid some of these owners are. And I just called it out. I literally called it out. But, yeah. And so that's me, by the way. But then I think back to the bollockins I got with Marco Alba, Gisa Waj, Joe Robboshan, they taught me well. They taught me really well. And coming back to the double-edged sword, the TV career goes amazing. Things are flying. You've popped in the States, which as we all know, every broadcaster in the UK would love to do and very few manage it. But then at the same time, some of the reviews are tricky. There's a hard ones that have some of your restaurants in the most disappointing country experiences. There was huge profit drop. Lots of star-acclareages. I'm very interested in how going around Zed out with that. I don't think there's any different to a critic, critiquing man's city when in the treble. A man United finishing fourth, you've got to put up with that shit. What you do need to learn in life. Anyone in high performances that you're judged by individuals that know less about food than you do. And so it's the nature of the beast. Because I don't give a fuck. Never have done, never will do. But when it starts getting personal, and they're launching these guides on the back of your name because they want to nominate the most disappointing meal, that's easy mud throwing. Have you taken your eye off the ball, do you think? Or was it just. No. Do you. You were there to be shut down, maybe? But do you buy the heartless guide? Is it still printed now? I wouldn't know. I've never looked at it in order. It makes two of us. But this mission and star would have had. We're talking about a completely different caliber of recognition here. A global, iconic guide that visits these restaurants in Cognito. So, Jake, I sleep at night with both eyes close. Don't you fucking worry about that. And 23 years at three mission stars. Trust me. I'm a happy boy. Good. Let's talk about happiness then. Yes. Where does family fit into that happiness for you? The balance. Yeah. This industry is an absolute bitch if you don't control it because it's lost too many good chefs to depression, suicide. It's lost too many phenomenal individuals because they've been sucked in and beaten by the industry. They can't let go. Let me know I won my third mission star. I learnt to delegate. I learnt to offload and I learnt to become unselfish and get those individuals to share the success that we were building. To create thorough breaths, a breeding stable. And Manchester United of Kitchens that can go on and win and lose on a weekly basis. But still be renowned as one of the best in the world. I think before we wrap this up, I've read and watched and listened to a lot of stuff. And I just want to talk about Tana for a moment. They're right when you were at the centre, the epicenter of your seriously busy life. Still there today. I know you went through a personal trauma losing a child a few years ago. I'd love you just to tell us the secret to a long-term marriage which has its highs and its lows. The amount of time you don't see is hard. And so we worked out very early on in life that the time we're going to have is make equality. I committed to those two days off Satisandai and she knew I was exhausted and shattered. But you need to work in harmony. You need to get that level of support. You need to be on the same page. So the secret of that relationship is communication. And then dealing with the trauma of losing an amazing tiny little baby. And just watching that devastation unfold and everything happening live and you're there, you value each other. We studied off as best mates and we were young. We were stupid and we were skint. I remember going to ask her father if I could borrow a 20 grand for the deposit for a flat that we fell in love with. And I thought this was all going well. Lunch is good. I'll pay for lunch and I said all by the way Chris you know about that deposit. You know, Tony and I we've got half of what we need the other 20 grand. I'll pay you back in a year. Is it okay? Yeah. Here's what I'll do. I'll have another lunch with you when you sell your Porsche. I thought you fucker but you clever fucker. Here I am driving around in a flash fucking 9/11, 9/11 turbo conversion. And Tony and I loved the car. How we didn't even have a fucking house. We never flat. We never roof over our heads. There's the best advice you ever gave me. Sell your fucking Porsche. I did sell it. And 10 years later I went and bought it back. Same car. Same fucking car. How did that feel? It felt amazing. I get embarrassed with the toys because I used to be embarrassed with my father dropping us off at school with his boxal beaver. There's more fucking rust at the inside than there was in the outside. And so you start getting into sort of 10, 11, 12 years of age and because three of us were in the same school with us to be dropped off way before because this this peanut fucking car was barely working. So we'd constantly go to car auctions and buy all shit cars and start a most alternate from their seat from this one. And this thing looked like a fucking scrapyard going to school. So I get embarrassed with what I've invested in now as a collection of amazing super cars. But it's amazing when you can't stop thinking about the sort of the beginning of this journey. And then you don't want to indulge but you want to enjoy the sort of fruits of your labor. And before I quick find questions, that's actually where I want to end. You know, having those cars is a real clear message for people who are maybe listening to this. And maybe they are in the same place that Gordon Ramsay was when he was 12, 13 years of age. What would your message be to those young people that feel that life has dealt the cars in such a way that they're never going to be sitting in the chair that you're sitting in right now? Yeah, you've got every chance of success. It's never around money. There's a level of success you can get just by getting out of a tiny situation you're in. And then you climb that ladder one week, one month, one year at a time. And you pat yourself down that you've done well. Don't look for other people to do that for you. And so there is a strong chance to do well. It depends on you and it's finding gears that you never felt you had in your wheelhouse. And self motivation is critical. And somewhere down the line, we're all going to get dealt with dysfunctional card in life just by situations. And the earlier you get dealt with dysfunctional card in life, the fucking better because it gives you a much stronger hand when you come to play it. Beautiful. Quick fire questions gone. Please. So let's start with your three non-negotiables that you and the people around you must buy into. Three non-negotiable behaviors. First one is you should be a sponge. Yep. The best listening device is you sponge. The second one is take it professionally, not personally. I can't stress how important that is. Getting told off is fucking good, really healthy, but take it professionally. Don't take it personally. And the third one is thick skin. You're never going to please everyone. Stop worrying about keeping everybody happy in the room. Fuck it. It doesn't exist. Remember that. You're advised to a young Gordon just starting out. Stay hungry and stay fit. And the final question, your one final message really to the people that have listened to this fascinating conversation and thank you for sharing so much with us, your one golden rule, if you like, to living a high performance life. My one golden rule to living a high performance life is never fear a storm, learn to dance in the rain. It's got me through so much shit in my life. I'm so happy when people tell me, be careful. It's stormy out there. I fucking love it. Well, there you go. I told you at the start of the conversation, it's one of my favourite episodes. I hope that after you've listened to that, you understand why. I just wasn't expecting Gordon to take us to the places that he did. And you know what? I often looked at his success and I thought, where does that drive come from? Where does the energy come from? How can some people have a need to have such an impact in the world? And that answered all those questions for me. I hope it did for you as well. And don't forget, we've got loads of conversations with Megastars from the culinary world, from Heston Blumenthal to Tom Kerridge to Marcus Wearing and they carry so much value. I think there's so much that links the high pressure world of a kitchen to the world of high performance and I'd love you to listen to those episodes. Don't forget to hit follow or subscribe. You can also get early access on the high performance app. Thanks for joining us. Myself and Damien. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)