Golden State’s Unc Superteam Dream, the Jaylen Brown Sweepstakes, and the Biggest Offseason Plotlines | Group Chat

Hello, and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle. Man, everything is happening. We got opt-outs, we got opt-ins, we got Malik Beasley being indicted, just snuck really in there in between the Zach Levine opt-in and also the Dremont opt-out, which I thought was a pretty interesting timing, but we saw you at Malik. We know what's going on with you. We saw Ed Davis, unfortunately, sneak into the Malik Beasley indictment, so it's just tough times all around if you are involved in an elaborate, multi-pronged gambling scheme, but otherwise if you're just an NBA free agent, good times about. It's always discreet in the flow of any conversation to announce, hey, let's switch to this encrypted, disappearing text platform or whatever it is. It never raises any flags when you do that, so I don't know if you'll sell the Ed Davis Malik Beasley thing, but yeah. Should we lose the group chat to signal or something? What do you guys want to do? Yeah, whenever we talk about something sensitive, yeah, do you think they were just waiting for like a big transaction shams tweet to just be like, okay, fire it now. Just mix it into the water spot. That definitely felt specific from my point of view, because it was like really in short order. It was like, bam, bam, bam, and then all of a sudden like you look back on it, it's just like, oh, wait, this is pretty interesting, because we've been waiting for on this for years at this point, but sucks from like, bleasy, I guess, but like you kind of get what you pay for. I don't know if it sucks for him if he is, you know, reaping what he has sold. There you go. All right, we got a lot to get to today, because there's a lot going on in the NBA. The off season is upon us tomorrow, I believe, is when the floodgates start to open tomorrow afternoon, but we're going to get through a primer here, not a primer. It's a primer, and we're going to go through all the big things, the warriors, Jalen Brown, Rylennard, everything you want to hear. We'll do that right after this. This episode of The Ringer NBA Show is presented by Ferreiro. The world is watching. Go all in for your team this summer with Ferreiro. Enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats, like Kinder Bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling, or Kebler chips deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks, or Ferreiro Rocher squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold. Go all in by any two Ferreiro brands, and you could win one million dollars official rules apply. Learn more at go all in and win dot com. So I was going through the warriors just like books yesterday, because it seems like something has to happen with them. And I was like, how do they do this without really just giving their entire team a facelift? Butler is due practically 57 million, but he's not going to be back until February. And then Dremont Green is due 28 million on a player option. He opted out today. And I'm just like, something has to happen. And then we got the opt out from Dremont. And then we got the big old news that they might be just forming the expendables. It's a real like, I was trying to think of the specific movie, like more like a fast and the furious or something in that realm where it's just like, I hate you, but you and you hate me, but we both hate the youth. So we have to come together and fight Victor Webinyama. But who hates who in this scenario? Haven't they all kind of made up with their Olympic glory and whatnot? See, we've gone so far down the road that Stefan LeBron used to be rivals. I mean, not necessarily like heated ones, but they were putting it against each other for multiple finals at this point. But so much time has passed as it so often does. Yeah. Just that was a decade ago. A lot has happened, you know? Yeah, it's getting a little comic bookie because I have this experience. I know a lot of my anchor touchpoints whatever it is reference, reference points, circle back to me, just having us a son who I'm just, you know, whatever he's is reminding me of comic books where I'll pick up one of his comic books and they'll be like, the different characters are aligned or like they have alliances or they have different powers. I'm like, I thought they hated each other and then he's like explaining to me what happened. That's what this feels like. The comic run has just gone on to the point where Venom and Spidey are on the same team now because they have a common enemy, you know, big maximum carnage shout out to my Spidey fans, that comic run. Our enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing. I mean, that's just serialized storytelling, right? Whether it's comics or soap operas or apparently the NBA. Yeah. So the kind of conceit here is that they would trade Butler for Davis, which is already comical because we talked about this on at the end of last episode. I was like, watch out for Anthony Davis because he has more of a market than you would expect for a guy who's done for practically nothing by the Dallas Mavericks. The Wizards have just held onto him, basically gave him a hotel for a couple of days when he popped into down once or twice and like, that's it. All of a sudden they might reword in the form of draft picks. But Dremon opting out, then provides them the option of signing LeBron to the mid level. We'll see if that's what he wants at this stage of his career. I don't know if he'll get like a bigger offer elsewhere or at least certainly with the team that has aspirations to compete next year. But I look at the board here, Rob, and I'm just like all the sudden the Wizards, if this does come to fruition are huge. I guess a pro, appropriately unsized and a little slower, a little bit more weight to them. Their front core, all of a sudden, would have if this goes through A.D. LeBron, Dremon, Yaxel Lendenborg, and Kristopper Zingas, who they expect to sign in for agency. I just can't believe this is a real possibility we're actually considering. Let me start. Before we even get into the mechanics of it, do we think this is going to happen? Do we think this is likely, probable, questionable? Where are we on the spectrum of the Anthony Davis LeBron James shoot the moon to get the full treatment that we're laying out here? Do we think this is even something that's likely? I would say it's probable and the fact that it's all laid out pretty specifically means that someone has this in mind, is that clutch, is that the war specifically? It sounds like probably both sides. I think the big thing that we don't know at this point is what the Lakers move will be in response to that. There are ports that they hadn't really been talking. LeBron and the Lakers before anything like this happened. So we'll see because they just let LeBron go and they just have to figure out his spot some other way. They would just have cap space, and they'd have to figure out something to do with it. And so I don't know, but I would put it at probable right now. I mean, it's exciting. I'm eager to see this team come together, even with all of the random front court pieces, they're going to have to find time in room four. To me, the Anthony Davis part, that part is negotiable. And you could even see it from the wizard's perspective of, as you laid out, Justin, how little they gave up at that Maverick Steel in the first place. If the warriors end up throwing in, not just Jimmy Butler's contract, which you could ostensibly trade again, but some first a handful of swaps. That is worth Washington's time to participate in if they want to do that. The thing I'm kind of waiting and seeing on, and this is where the clutch involvement is absolutely critical. The will LeBron James take the MLE to go play for a good team. We've been having that conversation for so long. I just kind of reviews to partake in it anymore until it actually happens. So I guess wake me up when LeBron actually does leave like tens of millions of dollars on the table, which why would you, even if you are LeBron James? Yeah, we keep speculating about that. And it's, I've yet to see, I mean, well, you know, Brunson is a young man. Granted, there's a lot of people we won't even go there, but there's, there are a lot of machinations and ways that guys can get compensated. You know, you hear, hear this stuff whispered about, but in the, in the, in the forefront out in the open on Main Street, it's like, we've yet to see a guy really. And LeBron's winding down. How much, how many more opportunities is he going to have to in the league get this amount of money? Granted, his market ability off the court is unlike any other player in the NBA. He has all these different ways that he can be made whole. Um, but I mean, if you're looking at, I'm looking at this from the wizard's perspective is, is an expiring Jimmy Butler. And then you look at the first that they're going to have, I guess the, that the warriors are going to have. And then seconds obviously has become a unique kind of marketplace in the draft. Um, for, for negotiating with guys, we saw like a first round pick a desirable guy who was projected as a first round to drop all the way to what 57 with base are. So that's a unique thing. But I'm just like, if I'm the wizards, is that the most appealing thing that could happen because you could look at this and say, these dudes are old. This could explode. I mean, famously available, you know, Anthony Davis is, is headed there. They're depending on him. You've got, we were talking about speculating about the, not speculating, talking about the age of Steph Curry, going to be 39. This is going to be his 39 year old season. Dremons, you know, not a spring chicken anymore. You could look at this and be like, this could just blow up. And suddenly those first that they have could become something. Yeah. I think if you're the wizards, you don't want to be paying Anthony Davis's next extension. In fact, I don't think most teams want to be paying Anthony Davis's next extension. I think you can make the case for the warriors if only because they need to take advantage of the next year or two because the clock is very much ticking with Steph Curry. How they got to this position, despite the fact that they had everything in front of them, they had two timelines. And now all of a sudden they have one very narrow one that they have to thread. It's basically this year and maybe next year, I would say, are the windows. That's a whole other podcast. It's like 10 other podcasts that I'm sure we've done at a certain point. But for the wizards, yeah, I think it's just draft capital. It's just opportunity. For the warriors though, I just don't know like what this even gets them. If it does come to force And I guess you just want to make the best of the opportunity, Rob, where it's like, it's Steph, it's, it's dead names, like, let's just figure it out, right? This will be fun and it will be profitable. Oh, we've got it. Or anything else. But I don't know. In terms of like, is this a legitimate threat in the West? I don't think so. Probably not, but isn't fun and profitable and interesting enough, you know, like, I just, I don't know that the warriors are going to get many better opportunities to put together a compelling team around Steph, then something like this. Like you can trace back the original sins wherever you want. Maybe it is kind of, you know, blundering about with certain draft picks, the two timelines thing in general. Maybe it is the kind of like the weight to do a Jimmy Butler style trade to begin with. They kind of like dragged their feet even into that process and then Jimmy got hurt on top of it and that's kind of exacerbated everything that's come with it. But here they are. Steph Curry is at this point in his career. You only have so many years to make the most of them left. Why wouldn't you swing? Get the biggest thing you can swing at. And I don't think you're going to find the one player out there, especially given Golden States finances that's going to fix this roster. It's going to make everything whole again. It's going to, you know, magically repair Moses Moody's knee and make Jimmy Butler viable or turn his contract into an all-star level player other than something like this. Like, and healthy Anthony Davis and if LeBron James comes with and if it's like a package type deal, I just really don't see the alternative that's going to be a better solution for Steph, a better solution for Golden State and frankly, a better solution for people like us who would just want to see a version of this team that feels watchable and interesting every night. Yeah. The, we're talking, I mean, the fun and the profitability aspect of it, obviously, you know, they're going to make money if they bring in everybody, LeBron affects economies. We've seen that repeatedly, but the basketball side of this would be pretty fascinating. I know we're getting kind of far down the road about assuming that it could happen. The idea of if they resign for Zinges, that just feels insane to me. You would think that he would have some opportunities for cleaner fits to slot in somewhere else across the league, but just like the idea of AD, LeBron, Dremon, like spatially, that's weird. You have, you know, LeBron has developed into a more capable jumpshooter, but Dremon famously spatially challenged. AD has been tormented by, he's just had spatial demons on offense his whole career. That's a bet on defense. I mean, I would assume, right? And then you got to think, where's the ball pressure in that group? It's harder to hide. Love, you know, if you have those guys, it's harder to hide stuff in high leverage situations. Like, he's probably going to, I just, I find that all odd because you're trying to walk a tight rope up. You would need some guys who can drive the basketball on the floor. Is that going to be like, but Jim Ski, who are they going to do that? And so just kind of balancing those two things. It would be interesting, but it feels like it's kind of self-contradictory to me to make it work. I think we'd have to set out some of the ripple effects if and when this were to happen, but some of them that I would assume for one, if a trade like this goes through, Gary Peyton, the second, all of a sudden, becomes like a really important free agent for them to bring back. For exactly the defensive reasons you described. Famously, famously not spatially challenged, Gary Peyton, also, I just were just like stacked, stacked, stacked. I mean, why not at that point? Right. But also, I would think that right now the formulation is between Alhorford and Chris that's where I guess you're getting one functional full time center, right? Like, they can kind of toggle minutes, toggle availability that between the two of them, maybe you can get a full seasons worth of center play out of them. If they get AD, I don't think they bring back porzinga on top of it. Maybe that'll be wrong. Maybe it'll just be icing on the cake on top of the icing of the icing, but it doesn't feel like that would be a good fit. It makes me wonder had Burys just dropped one more spot. It seems like he could have done a lot of the things that you're kind of describing there, Kyle, instead, yeah, so it just only makes them just like even bigger. It's just like at the certain point, they just have fours on top of fours at this point. I think that's one thought I had when this first came down. I think the other one was like, I do wonder if the Warriors picks are way more valuable than just getting AD. Like maybe it only takes two to get AD and then you could just have a little bit more of a runway after all of this falls apart in two to three years. And so you keep those, although that was the problem with the Warriors to begin with. But I'm just like, if you're going to just like give up all the assets, there's just like a lot of draft capital here because they only owe their 20, 30 at this point. Can't you go out and get something bigger like wouldn't allow remarking in or someone with like an actual fit here, be more attractive than going to get to AD. I know like the maybe it doesn't work because the agencies and maybe that was the price of dream on opting out to begin with. But just feels like you can do better than AD because as we mentioned, like he just went for like a fake first last year, one first and like a bunch of fake other picks. It's just like he shouldn't have to give up so much. But he went for a fake first, I guess it was one real first and one fake first, if I remember correctly. But he went for that because the maps were the desperate team, right? Like they were desperate to move off of him. Now gold states the desperate team. Like they need some kind of solution here. They need to string together some sequence of moves that puts together a roster that is worth Steph's time and right now it is not in that place. The actual stuff is very funny though. Just like the way that all of this is spinning out and look, you have to wonder if he's being punished himself by either the basketball gods or gold states for an office for like putting into the ether. Oh, I might have an opportunity to start with this team. Like that, you know, there's really an opening here for me in the front court. The gold and stay warriors will tell you if you are a young player, even a fake young player, like the actual Lendaborg, not so fast. You simply must wait your turn behind these like bigs, we're going to bring it. The course so not so fast. I would say this about Yaxl, like from listening to him talk over the past two or three years, like there can be this confusion with guys just like, what's going on with him? Like why is he, I think with most people, ideally there is sort of a screen door in front of their mouth whenever they, and I think Yaxl is just, they're the doors just open. He thinks it's kind of similar to Anthony Edwards, but he was younger. He's gotten a little bit, little bit more of this stuff out. Like if he thinks it, he says it just kind of, I think you just kind of roll with the punches, but like the free A to C market here, I'm just like, do they allocate that money instead of porzingus and go get like, amfordy Simon's who do they, who do they go get? I don't know. I don't know. It needs to be a two way player. Sleen into it. Go find a way to get drew holiday. I don't know, but yeah, the finances would be really crunch at that point. I don't know. Just looking at the West here, I'm just like, is this even a top six team? Everything goes well for a lot of the teams that we have high expectations for. Like I, they'll be back in the play in mix. I guess it will be a real spirited, fun one. I'm sure there will be multiple documentary crews that will be chronicling this step-by-step. And that'll be fun like five years from now, although I haven't seen an interesting sports documentary in at least five years because they're all just like completely controlled by the participants. But I'll watch it. I'll watch two episodes. It'll just be like, oh, that's fine. And then just trail off. I don't know, Rob, is this going to matter, I think, in the big picture of the league in the West even? I mean, it will matter in the sense that it will be one of the biggest stories going on in the sport, just with the collision of talent and reputation and history and legacy that are all happening at the same time in a major market. Like, that's going to be a real thing. Are they going to be in a position to contend with the Thunder and the Spurs and the Best Team in the West? Best teams in the West? I'm hard pressed to say that they would get that far. But I also just don't, I don't see the Lowry Markin in type alternative that you're laying out. Like, we've been waiting for the Jazz to trade Lowry for so long and now they're just not going to because they reformulated a whole nother team around him. And they're just really aren't that other like other than if you can string together enough salary to make a Jalen Brown bid, which they, I mean, doesn't really make sense from Golden States or Boston's perspective. Like, what are we talking about? Like, what else is in the ether here? That's a clunky style fit for sure, Jalen Brown with Steve Carr. As we've seen, you know, like with the Olympics, I just, perhaps does that does not compute on paper. Yeah. I mean, you would rather Anthony Davis in a crowded front court over Jalen Brown and it just a crowded, like, just mismatch of, of styles. I'm just asking. Not me. It's odd. I mean, they're going to have to rethink the way they play for sure. I was just looking through. Yeah, I mean, I just don't see, I mean, Quentin Grimes, maybe two way player, a little bit could play with that group. I know you're grinning. I'm looking at the free A to C list on Spowe track here for guards. I just don't. Oh, it's going to be tough. It's going to be like a buddy heals, like non guaranteed contract defaults and they bring him back to come off the bench. It's going to be stuff like that that's going to round out Golden States roster. If the trade like this goes through, that's still not a dribbling basketball player. Oh, no. Depending on LeBron's brain, an awful lot at that point. I mean, I think the triangulated handling between Dream on LeBron and Steph is enough. Is it optimal? No. Would you want another, like, dribble penetrating guard, of course. I just don't know where that guy is going to come from. Yeah. Trade for Yokech, who all of a sudden is maybe available. Why not? Why not? All right. Since we're talking about Jalen Brown, why don't we get into the Jalen Brown sweep steaks part? What is it? 26? At this point, just really the spiritual successor of the Yannis sweep steaks, where it just feels like every day, something new, but nothing really ends up happening. Do we need to get to start with this? The analytics war that broke out out of a Bobby Marx radio hit that was aggregated and apparently not even like fully, like, we didn't get the full context of it. Do we need to talk about this? This seems all very silly. I don't think we need to talk about it, to be honest, but if we want to get into the ditch and just roll around a little bit. that I'm not going to, not going to take that away from you. So seventh best player on Zodiac. So Baylor Shireman is just at home, like, like, looking at red it being like, "Oh, yeah, buddy, this is my moment. I always knew I was better." It just doesn't make sense. Like, I don't know what analytics you could even be looking at that suggests that he would be somewhere in like the hundredth and 50th best player in the NBA. If that was the case, just, it seemed weird to begin with. And then it really just like, everyone didn't care because all they did was just jump to the assumptions of like, "Atlantic's fucking Zolk!" and you have Jalen Brown jumping in and David West I saw in there. And then you had the Atlantic's people be like, "No, we're crazy." That was a different David West, by the way, I think, I don't think that was. Oh, I thought it was the real thing. I was like, I think there's an analytics guy named David West, right? No, I think this is former basketball, former NBA player, David West. See, this is great. I thought there was another person that the same name doesn't seem like that unique a name. Yeah, I mean, when I saw it, I was just like, "Good God." I was like, "This is just going to stir up." And the thing about like quoting a model like that, I've never built a model, but I would think in the process of building it, I would be sort of doing trial and error to make sure that it gets close to how I perceive basketball. Or you could just, I would assume, reverse engineer it and be like, "These are the, maybe those are different versions of the same thing." But if I had a model that came out and said that, I'd be like, "Okay. In life, you hear takes from varying people, you know, using like, we won't go there, but like the political spectrum." You hear a wild thing and you'd be like, "Okay, that's clearly way over here." You know, now, you kind of, you dial in what's in the center, what's right and what's left, saying he's the seventh best. It's just, Jalen Brown's always been complicated for me personally in terms of my taste, sensibilities as a fan of basketball. I'm like, it's just not quite for me, but I've been proven to be wrong. He's won a title. He's been a part, I think that he's hard to optimize on a bat, on like a championship level team, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. He's not my favorite. But to say he's seventh best, I was just like, I ejected, I was just like, I can't, I just can't. It spiraled and it did exactly what we thought it would do. It's spiral completely out of control. People started making it a race thing. I was like, "Oh my God, this is the darkest timeline of what." It always goes, it always goes there and I just, I tried to sit it out as best I could. It's so stupid. It's, but it's stupid in the way that I want some your discourse to be stupid. So I'm happy to poke in on it now and again. I would say a couple things. One, people have crazy deranged basketball takes across the spectrum. I think the problem with analytics as an idea is it lumps all of these computational like, like all bunch of quants into one category as if they believe one thing. There are a whole last conferences where these people come together and just argue about what things matter and what things don't. And so the idea of like, oh, the analytics community says this, the analytics community doesn't say jack shit. It's a bunch of people with varying models who widely disagree on things. I have a lot of ego. The idea of it was one base, but it's not, turns out it's not. The idea that like, oh, someone who is analytics oriented, thinks Jalen Brown is the seventh best player on a team. To me, it's very similar to something I used to do when I was at sports illustrated for our preseason preview, which is the anonymous scout takes, which are, these are eye test professionals. And you would not believe the shit that these people would say with a straight face and complete belief in their voice as far as who is good and who is not, who these teams should bail on, who's a complete liability. There are basketball people with an absolutely insane opinions doing every function within a front office. And so here we are with Jalen Brown, who just won a championship in near history for one of the most analytically driven teams in the league. I just, I don't really understand what we're doing here, but I guess that we're just going around the bend one more time. Yeah, one of my favorite things is people complaining about like us and media not having the level of sophistication that like would map on to NBA front offices. And a lot of the times I'm like, do you realize these guys are just basically working the trade machine for fun? Like I know people specifically who just gain theory out trades in order to just come up with fun ideas that could make their team better that ultimately just go into a file. Like Kurt Goldberg has talked several times about how we just basically wrote blog posts for pop. You know, it's just like, like they're doing similar things here. And one of the thing is like, yes, when you give someone anonymity, it is a hell of a fucking drug. They will say some wild shit that not even like I would even go into. And I do think someone probably, if you found the right person was like, yeah, I mean, Jaylen Brown's not that guy's always a seven best player in the league, but it was probably said in that sort of fashion and the more it spins out, it just seems like it's something that it wasn't. Should we do anonymous media member takes where we give anyone, you know, fellow ringer employees, people out there, but they're just all me honestly, that'd be a great bit. We do the whole like voice modeling software. Like we make it completely anonymous. And they get to come in here and be like, you know, what if you give Derek white his own team? They'd be the second seat of the Eastern Conference. Like I just want to I want to create ideas with no reputation on the line. Okay. You can do that together for us. Okay, I got you. I have the technology. There's just so much even trial and error with like you hear teams that like hand track things like data, but there's there's the people logging things can be like a weird inefficiency on some of these tracking sites. And then you're like, you're making these wild conclusions. I know you'll have probably had this experience. I have where I'll see something statistically on some of these advanced sites. And I'll be like, that's really interesting. And then I'll follow that I'll pull on the string. I've talked about this on the show. I'm sure. And I'll get to the end of it and be like, that's not true. Like I don't like the numbers just that that is just not true. So you just kind of have to just keep your head on a swivel when you're out there. It's not I don't know. I agree with you. All people try to loop it. Everyone together. I always joke. I get lumped with the nerds and I'm not like a nerd math person at all. I'm way more of a tape person. So I've kind of feel like I'm like in the middle of these two camps fighting a lot of times. I'm not a nerd. I'm a dweeb. Okay. I just want you guys to be. I'm a nerd of a certain variety for sure. But yes, but I like I said, I'm not a math person. But just keep your nerds and your dweebs and your dorks separate. Like, yeah, respect our cultures, please. In the Christian Linnaeus taxonomy, right? Or Corolos or obviously, I don't think I remember what it is anymore. Well, it is funny because I don't think the Celtics think that Jalen Brown is the seventh best player actually. But it has surprised me throughout this entire cycle of rumors. How active it feels like they are with wanting to trade him. I had someone whisper to me as the honest stuff was going along. Like Jalen's actually more available than you realize. It wasn't just an opportunity situation where they saw Jalen's available. This is what we have to match. You just take Jalen. We'll get the better player. It seemed like there's just a divide there, either because of Jalen's hardheadedness, because of the just shrapnel that's accrued over this relationship. Or perhaps because they went through this season. It seems like they just didn't like the results. Brad Stevens seems obsessed with getting a big. It doesn't seem coincidental that like, and any of these trade scenarios are like, oh, they get a big man. It's just like, from a farm, like you just, I mean, Jalen beat was available and good for like the one week that he does that every year at this point. You don't need to overreact and kind of upend what was a pretty good team. It seemed that I thought could get to the least East Finals last year. And so I just find myself robbed with all of this, like just still confuse like, what is the motivation? Because this team just has so much good for going for it. I almost feel like they should be adding to this in order to build out around Jalen and Jason even more, rather than just tearing this apart and starting a new. Well, I think it's a combination of two things. One is the sort of this from a personality standpoint and team chemistry standpoint has sort of run its course. And we're just ready to sort of move on with a new collection of people in this locker room or at least not Jalen Brown in this locker room. I think that's fair. I think the other part of it is once you cross the threshold into, we are going to earnestly engage in the Yannis trade talks. And I think those talks were worth having. I think if anything Boston, like really miss an opportunity not sealing the deal and getting Yannis in the first place, that's neither here nor there. That's done. We don't have to really litigate all that. But once you make that decision, the Jalen Brown thing is decided. You only get to play the, we didn't mean it. It's not personal thing with a player one time. You get it once. And they already did it like four years ago with Kevin Durant. You can't go to Jalen Brown again and be like, we really love you. You're valued here. We know we just tried to trade you for the umpteenth time. But that truth base is out of the tube. And so now it's a question of what can you get for it? What makes sense? What is the optimal trade package? How long can you string this out without damaging the team or the progression of the season? Those are the big questions in the air right now to me more than can they keep him? Because I think, I think once that is out there, you really just can't go back. And it is kind of funny to think back about the Durant one in particular to think about this. Some of the reasons that are driving the Jalen Brown discussion in general about just like, well, is he happy? Is he, you know, it just, there seems to just be general grumpiness. It is kind of funny to think about them pulling the trigger for again, here we just say the line again, famously happy and content basketball player Kevin Durant. It's just funny to think about that timeline that we didn't get to see. Yeah. I just don't see an obvious fit for him as well. Because to me, he is the perfect one B you want to support your time. 10 player just outside of that but when you give him a team that team ceiling is going to be around like you know second round maybe Western Conference Finals or Eastern Conference Finals if things go well and he's because of the reasons Kyle was mentioning before it just seems like a harder fit to really build an elite level web enyama competitor sort of team like Portland is obviously in the mix here I just don't see the fit with him and Denny like really being an ideal one if anything they do a lot of the same things they're almost like redundant at certain point if you're already pocket committed to Denny I don't see what the problem with the the theory would be in order to get brown in order to do similar things if only to talent grab but like still that just doesn't move the needle for me the most interesting one on the board honestly Rob for me and I'm curious what you guys would would think about like just where he would be best suited it would be like a team like the Clippers that just like doesn't have anything going for it per se in the immediate term where it's like well just ride the quiet thing out for as long as possible I don't know if they have the the right assets I assume what we would probably have to be involved maybe like the Pacers picked down the road maybe you can get involved in the quiet like going to Toronto or somewhere else and this is just all sorts of triangulated but like to me he fits there where it's like a team that's on a certain tier the play in perhaps and he's just a younger more long term option that could perhaps give us more options in in like that like three to five year range and we could just be better than who you are maybe not the best but we could be better but from Boston's perspective what are they getting in a trade like that other than if they wanted to why which I don't really think they do it would be difficult which is why you'd have to get a third team involved maybe he goes to Toronto Toronto sends something to Boston maybe it's more teams and at that point it becomes super complicated but I just think in terms of fit if it's not the Clippers it's a team like the Clippers that's just like here and they just want to do a little bit better with their circumstances yeah one team I haven't heard a lot about and I think this is for somewhat obvious reason but my whole issue with the the yana situation is there really just aren't many opportunities with Jalen Brown and his contract and the situation the Celtics find themselves in to trade for another truly elite player really a player of Yannis's caliper we're not really hearing about those guys in Jalen Brown you know trade machinings and whatnot it's a lot of like herb Joneses and you know maybe the high-end Jamal Murray or someone like that all of those makes sense for various reasons if you're the calves would you at least have a conversation about Donovan Mitchell and I say that because there's always that kind of thing in the air too with Mitchell of like at what point is he going to be dissatisfied with these situations and maybe it is like a temperature checking operation as far as like how content do you think he is with Cleveland I don't think Jalen Brown is a perfect fit in Cleveland by any means I think he's a less a lesser passer than Donovan Mitchell in a way that how it would have downstream effects for guys like mobility and Alan would probably force you to reconsider the shape of the team in a lot of different ways but I just don't know how else you get if you are Boston another truly elite player where we had what what do we have Jalen Brown on the top 100 JV like 14 there's something like that I don't see anyone in that top 13 and one of those guys is Jason Tatum being available for trade other than Kwai Leonard who we mentioned who I don't think the Celtics would trade for and maybe someone like Mitchell hypothetically who you can at least get like a maybe conversation starter out of yeah I know the fit between like Harden and and Jalen Brown I just feel like that would be just waiting to explode way way to of course granted I mean he and Tatum have a kind of a tricky a tricky at sort of balance between those two I'd heard someone mention the Hornets I didn't I mean I don't know how that would work Justin's creating like you'd have to be giving up another big piece of who you are I don't I don't know how that would work I don't even think they have the salary to really make that plausibly. No I think that's really now making the most on that team. Yeah it would have to be but they need Nazaried and then yeah I mean just running down through here there's not there aren't many great fits and I that might be a testament to what we were saying earlier it's just a really tricky fit maybe I think maybe you have to have like volume spacing like shooters get up a lot of three point attempts to really make that work because I think the whole kind of sell on Jalen is the two way power that you get out of him but then you have to build your offensive roster a certain way. Well can I throw some crackpot third wave trade trade machine ideas at the two of you. Look at this. Rob Mahoney working the trade I'm just trying to get it free for times like this. I do it for you Justin. Thank you. I'm gonna fully admit I don't think these are the best ideas but no bad ideas in a brainstorm all the obvious stuff is already out there and on the board so I just want to get your instant reactions to these potential outcomes. What if you traded Jalen Brown to the Sixers for Paul George and V.J. Edgecomb. Sixers are taking a shot under their phone. They're not. Are they? They love V.J. Why the world would they court that? Let me let me ask you this. What are the odds that V.J. is at any point in his career at top 15 player? Like was he ever V is good as Jalen Brown is right now? I don't think it's about that. I think the highs maybe won't reach as high but I think V.J. is way way more of a like a universal donor in the basketball sense like he might not hit the side like he is going to fit into a lot of iterations of high high high level teams I think and V.J. is also like just an exemplary culture organizational guy not that like Jalen isn't that in any way but I just think he's very much amenable to a lot of different ways that the Sixers build. There's no way I'm giving that up and he could be an all defense guy and develop into like a fringe primary offensive guy. No chance. I'm getting rid of him. Well looking at this from the Celtic's perspective and this is something I don't understand is like what would they do with the 21 year old? There's like a a real in between zone where you get someone who's young maybe on still on a rookie skill contract who's played a year or two obviously clinging has been mentioned with Portland. It's like that guy is like ready to play now but he's young enough and cheap enough where I think it matters for adjacent tandem centric reset if you're going to do that and plus you get other assets on top of that if I'm just getting a young player I do wonder if that's going back too far without the draft capital to either just have a longer runway or spin that into something else. Totally fair. I think that's where like Paul George present tense player would actually be pretty useful for Boston I look I understand all of the concerns about trading someone like V.J. not just how pliable he is as a talent and on the court but like trading a good young player on a rookie scale salary is not a smart thing to do under basically any circumstances not advocating that you do it. I'm just wondering if we can have a conversation about it. You know I'm wondering if you can get somebody on the phone. Apparently shotguns are involved. I don't think concerns is the right word. I think these are downright hard walls where you I don't even have to like it's just not happening. I don't even have to dignify what you just said with my concerns like I'm not well how about this is well hold on do we almost trade Jalen Brown for Paul George in a past life as well. There are salaries are close like I would say if you can make something happen. I think that almost happened. I mean I'm pretty sure we almost traded Jalen Brown for everybody at this point. So you would have to make a short list of players he hasn't been connected to in hypothetical deals. Let me throw a few more at you. Could we trade Jalen Brown to the Hawks for Nikhil Alexander Walker Jonathan Kaminga buddy healed salary and I think maybe you might need to include even with Jalen's massive contract maybe the Hawks also include the 2027 first that is the less favorable of New Orleans and Milwaukee which could be a pretty decent pick or maybe yeah I think I think it has some slight protection on it. This is my favorite option on the board in terms of where Jalen could go because I think the Hawks even though I would personally slow play this and let some of the younger guys try to figure things out. You have Nikhil on this absolute bargain contract. I saw something speaking of the quans saying that this is the biggest bargain deal in the entire NBA. I would point out that Denny Abda makes like $11 million was an Ulster and almost an all NBA guy but that's just me. That's just me but I think like that is the sort of team where it's just like you get him at such a cost that the talent outweighs the downside of the fit and I do think the Hawks are in a position where they're going to be pretty good no matter what they do. Adding Jalen to Jalen Johnson and whatever is left there, Fleming's and Dyson Daniels. It makes sense that the spacing fit is going to be tough with Brown and Daniels in there. Again though I have to ask with the Celtics like what does this do for Boston to have just thought some and not even you're not giving me any picks here right. I think it'd be one pick but it is a top four protected and it's yeah it would be the least favorable of New Orleans and Milwaukee because there's a swap involved but I think I think it's Nakeel as a as a nice centerpiece to bring back on a reasonable contract. Maybe like a Derek White heir apparent in terms of someone who's giving you like great consistent defense every night good connective play really good three point shooting. Like he fits Boston's style in a lot of ways. He's not honest. You know he's not an all star that you're bringing back like baked. Well you know maybe from a certain point of you he could be you know maybe we just haven't done enough reputation laundering for Nakeel Alexander Walker to reveal him to be the superstar that everyone knows him to be. Not yet. That's way more intriguing. I mean that okay salary is still jailing good god he makes so much money. You're still off on the you're still short on the money. but the pick is enticing. - I think the money actually does work if it's Nikhil, Kuminga, and Buddy Healt. I think that those combination sellers do. - With the new Healt deal, I don't think it's on the track. I guess it's probably not on the machine yet, but yeah, it's at 48.3, but yeah. - Boston needs something. It needs Fleming's, it needs Dyson Daniel. It needs some young stuff in addition to Nikhil's good, but like-- - Yeah, not enough. - Yeah, it's tough. - I mean, honestly, then I did have the Jalen Brown, Sam Hauser for Jamal Murray, Kim Johnson construction that Bill has sufficiently stolen our thunder on now. And then this cab's idea of like, is there a Jalen Brown? I think they might have to, the Celtics might have to include more to make a Donovan Mitchell swing if Jalen Brown is the piece. So it'd be like Jalen and Jordan Walsh and a first or something like that for Donovan Mitchell. And I think they would have to dump salary in the deal, so I'd have to be like Dennis Schroeder or something like that. - Yeah. I think the Portland option is probably the most likely one on the board if only because if we're tracking motivations here. I think Portland leveled up last year to the point where they're no longer an asset accumulation mode. Plus, they get to the playoffs and all of a sudden you realize how much space is left to get from just good to being on the level of some of the bigger teams on the West. And then you add in the ownership. I think ownership not only wants to make a splash, wants to put his name on something, but also like he's been consistent our guide Tommy D that despite the fact that he's doing a lot of cost cutting on the fringes, the money will show up on the court. I think this would be a proof of concept of that, just getting a super max player in the building. And so like, I think it makes sense from the outside, from the external forces rather than the team side of things. In terms of like the actual fit on the court, what do you guys think if he were to end up there? - Well, let me ask you about the money showing up on the court. Like does the court stop at the sidelines? 'Cause like once you get into the bench area where the head coach is standing, is that not included? - Yeah, no, it's just between the lines, the baseline does not get included here. It's not in the square footage. - Apparently not. - I know he grossed window there. - Oh. - I think I would be similarly concerned to what you laid out earlier just in as far as the way that Danny and Jalen Brown would fit together. It doesn't really make sense to me. - It's not a synergistic, you know. - It is not. I mean, for all the things that Tatum Brown had to work through to make themselves a championship style pairing. Like there was a lot of give and take there. And there was a lot of like learning to be better spacers for each other, learning to play off of each other. In ways that I just don't think Danny would be well suited to. Like you want the ball in Danny's hands as much as possible. And yes, you want half court counterbalances to make his life easier. I just don't really think Jalen Brown is exactly that kind of guy right now. - It could work. I mean, the more I'm thinking about it, they would, it would be clunky. They would have to figure out how to do it. But it's not like an imbi bin Simmons type fit where you're just like these don't really, we can't really position these to flow into each other. And I know you say like you want to get the ball into Danny's hands as much as possible. It's like there is a threshold like where it's not like we need him pushing like 30s usage, right? You know, I think at some point you're ramming you get a basketball concussion as a team if you ram your head into the door of a superstar's production. Like you have to like scale it down at some point. Maybe Jalen be open to that. I mean, you dad, another, you dad, another primary guy who is also, you know, big time defender like we're saying, I think it would help Portland's. And Portland already is a little stymied half court in the playoff setting. So it could, I don't know the more I think about it, I'm like it could work. It would be, it would be painful to get there. But like it's not terribly dissimilar from the Tatum experience. And maybe Brown comes away from that whole thing thinking like I could, I could make this work maybe. - Yeah. I understand why the trademark market is probably a little more frothy than someone like Brown because if you're an ownership group you'd probably say, I want Brown in the door. I want to be able to sell that we have an all NBA guy. Just like put him on the poster. Him, Dame, Danny, that would be great. But what Portland needs and what a lot of the teams we're talking about, including Boston, would be someone who could just put up 10-3s a game, do a little bit of everything, develop still in the midst of what you already have. And so he makes way more sense in order to make sense of certain teams. Like Jalen Brown is introducing problems. I think Trey is more of a problem solver. So we'll see. All right, why don't we take a break? Come back, talk about some other offseason stuff. All right, in the midst of all this triangulation and like what could happen, the hornets have been very active before the actual buzzer goes off on the offseason. Two trades, a little mellow going to the Timberwolves. Then we have Miles Bridges, Michigan State alum, going to the bosom that is Matt Ishpia in Phoenix. - What a f**k, God. - I'm going to get a bosom. - You said that pods, we do more bosom for 48 minutes and it's all because of Justin than anybody else. You said that way too easily. Like that just flowed out of you. - Yeah, this is one of my go-tos. How it happened? I don't know, but. - Oh, I think we know how it happened. - There's some real, there's some real like, bothersome like Freudian coding on the other things that you do easily, Justin. - How I spend my offseason is none of your business, okay? - You know, you're entirely fair. - I'll be honest, I like the lamellal deal more before I saw the fine print on some of the pick swaps because it ended up being three swaps. In addition to, what was it, a 2033 first? Which is like so far away, I just don't even know like what planet I'm going to be living on. But like two of the swaps have been pre-swapped and so they're not as like gangbusters as you would expect. I liked it more though, like I balanced out once it happened in concert with the Bridges Move Rob because on the one side, clearly lamellal was so successful with last season, he was the engine of what was like one of the best turnarounds we've seen recently. - And one of the best offenses in the league too. - But it wasn't only a few months ago that we were basically wondering whether or not this guy could stay on the floor. So I understand selling high and I like it in concert with Bridges because you're basically just cleaning up shop and as you were talking about before, desperate teams have to do something, the horns are not into that situation. And so I liked the sober long view that they showed here where they said, we're not gonna buy too high on the success that we had, we have these young players. Let's figure stuff out. Like can Khan handle the ball more? I don't know, but I want to figure that out and I appreciate that in the face of the success that they had. - They have a lot of time between Khan and Brandon Miller especially as kind of like the tent poles right now. And you know, Kobe White's gonna do good work for them as he did to close out last season, Nas Reed. Also ball handlers, far as big as go. Like there's a lot to work through and work around and figure out what can all these guys do in these like slightly supercharged roles? I get that. I get the play overall as far as like who Lamello is as an injury risk. And frankly, this is probably like a savvy bit of business to trade him after his healthiest season in a long time. And just make the bet that like for as much as we like him, we just don't trust him to stay healthy. And so like let's get while the getting's good. Let's get these picks in the door, these swaps in the door are really good player and Nas Reed, even if he's not as good as Lamello and just make do with this hall of stuff that we've gotten in return. I think it's an impressive hall of stuff. I just am low to give up Lamello ball the basketball player. And I am probably on the far end of Lamello belief as far as these things go, but they, from the time he has been a hornet, they have never had a functional offense when he is not on the floor. I don't think that's an accident. And some of that has included last season with, you know, with Brandon Miller, with Khan, like with these guys in and out of the lineup, granted given some of the injuries there, but he's transformed what they were offensively and accelerated all of the players around him. Like he legitimately is one of these guards whose imagination makes good players that much better. That's not a guy I want to, I'm not looking to get out of that business, but if you're going to do it, I would guess that it's for some reason like this, which is we are just going to take a slight step in a different direction stylistically. We're going to get all this stuff and then figure out what to do with it. And so acting like a young, interesting, but also aggressive team in the market, I don't think is a bad decision for the hornets. It just kind of bums me out that Lamello isn't going to be a part of everything that made. And frankly, it was a huge reason why the hornets were so exciting last season. Yeah, I don't think that the basketball side that was so exciting was really going to be doable, long-term, and sustainable because of the choices that they were going to have to make. I mean, you know, Lamello is going to be a UFA in 2930 and then I had to run down. I mean, Brandon Miller is going to be due to extend, well, Con is going to be extending that summer and then Miller is going to be extending the next summer. So you think, and you have to really think about the Bridges and Lamello thing together here on the basketball since because they're going to have to pivot to something different because they offloaded their two most competent drivers at this point. Con and Con can get into the pain and can do some of his like little fade kind of shoulder spin fade jumper that he can make and then, but he and Miller are really East West players. So I think you're probably, if you're thinking that Kobe is going to come in, it's going to be a sort of, I don't know, when you sit down at a plate at a dinner table and it's like the entree is at one spot, they're going to have to kind of just tilt it. Like it's going to be, it's going to be a little different like how they approach their offense is what I'm saying. Like initially it was Lamello was the catalyst who came in, maybe that means that Miller and Con take a little bit more of the initiator. Wait. just because Justin's greening, I'm worried. Kobe White is just more of a natural score. I think that Miller and Khan have more playmaking sense in their game. So I just think it could offensively take a little bit of a step back in the short term. But thinking that Kobe's going to come in and just be like, OK, come in and be this game managing steady quarterback. I don't think that Kobe's that guy. I think it's more likely that Khan and Brandon take on more initiator reps. So I guess Khan and Miller are kind of like the peas in the mash, I guess. But what if you eat them to get like you put the peas in the mash? There's protein. There's protein in the peas. It depends on your perspective. You could come in and be like, this is a vegetarian meal. This is maybe more of their arentry for now. I don't know. I'm just trying to think creatively with you here. But also, let's not sugar code it. The offense will take a step back. I don't see a path in which Charlotte's offense is as good next season. Now they may be a more balanced team. They may be a deeper team in certain ways. We might see exactly the kind of development you're talking about, Kyle, from Khan, from Brandon Miller, from whoever might pop up and down this rotation as far as creation goes. But this is not going to be a top five offense anymore. It's certainly not going to be the high water mark of who they were over the last couple of months of the regular season. There's just no evidence to suggest that they're going to be that kind of team. So then the question is, what is reasonable to expect of them and how good can they be in the short term as they kind of figure out all this stuff longer term? There's certain jail and brown type qualities to them just turning the page here, where it just feel like they're exercising the knuckleheadedness of their team. And I think no matter what you do around the mellow, that's still going to infiltrate into who you are as a team spiritually, culturally in the locker room and all this other stuff. And so I respect that. They're a little bit more boilerplate. At this point, they don't have the same sizzle as a lead pass team that you would expect. But Nazarid is a very good player who fits what they're going for there. And I just feel like being able to take a step back, reassess, see what we have, and just like be the better team three years from now, matters so much more than just being more exciting in the immediate with Lemelle. They're a heartier. If we're going to continue this meal metaphor here, little heartier, little chewier right now, but I think you'll be feeling better about yourself in the long term. So they've gone from what to what? Like what's the heartier upgrade? They're now a shepherd's pie, but they were what? - I think you're like a steak sizzled with like hot tockies on top of it. - Hot tockies. - Yeah, and now we're just like a hearty quinoa-based bowl, you know? - Honestly, I think abuse the steak sizzled the tockies. - Well, I mean, that is Lemelle a ball. Like let's be real about it. There is the part of him that will forever be a 12 year old boy, and there's also the basketball genius lurking within. So also lurking within. - Not gonna lie, would fuck up some tockies right now. Actually, that's kind of delicious. So let's get back going. - Lemello is hot tockies is like center of the bull's eye. That's really great. No, I mean, I mean, like they, I was talking with somebody about this. Lemello, this may seem insane. I know Rob, you've said you're on that into the spectrum in terms of Lemello. In terms of its talent, I mean, he might be the best, he's in the conversation and might be the best ball handler passer in the world. He can do things that other people just, there aren't many people, you're talking about the rarest of rarefied air in terms of talent, but it's just like how stable is he? And when that person is removed from your team, you're gonna notice that. And I think it's gonna ask a little bit more of some of these guys. Maybe they play through the bigs a little bit, but I mean, if you tilt this and think about Lemello in particular about his legacy, which I just day and night think about, I'm just consumed with it. I'm checking how his shoes are selling, his jerseys, things like that. If Charlotte does not plummet, if they do pretty well in his absence and then the Minnesota thing, which we can, I don't know how much you all want to get into that, if that fails to launch, this is a pretty big inflection point for the Lemello conversation here. - Yes, do you want to talk about the wolves now in this end of it? I don't really know what to make of it at this point. I guess my biggest thought here, Rob, is that I guess I didn't realize the wolves were this desperate in order to make something happen, although when you look at the particulars, it's like, yeah, I mean, like Anthony Edwards has like, what, three more years left on his deal. If this goes poorly, then you're two, like two years away is typically when guys start to ask out and like the training is probably already off the tracks at that point. And I get the understanding that when you look at some of their failures in the post season, not having that complimentary ball hand or not having this sizzle, especially when Anthony Edwards was out, I get all that stuff. In theory, sure. I just, it does feel like they are spooning out their entire identity here, where they have been season after season, the biggest baddest team that can counter bigger teams like the Nuggets. And it does feel like they're aspiring to something different. And that always scares me when you have something that has been moderately successful. - Yeah, I mean, I think quite successful. Relative to every other team in the league that hasn't won a championship over the last three years. Like the wolves have been a really successful team. I also think it's okay to pivot from that given the way their playoffs went. And this was a very interesting Western conference bracket in terms of the number of teams that just had serious reckoning along the way. Like we're gonna talk a little bit about the Denver Nuggets. They're one of those teams who kind of ran into a wall and have to really reassess. I think the whole Julius Randall situation really put the wolves in a tough spot where that's not a player who's easy to replace with just like another plug and play power forward. Like he's too talented to just assume someone else can do what he does. And so then you do have to reconceptualize your team. If you're gonna either trade Julius Randall for another starting level player, which they failed to do or salary dump him in the manner that they did, you gotta get creative. Like you have to start including some of these picks and some of these swaps and bring in something really dramatic. And the most important need on the board was the counterbalancing playmaking to take pressure off ant to make it so that you can't just double him every time down the floor. And you can't just treat him and treat the rest of the wolves as if they are a simple problem to solve. And I think Lamello does do that. Will he be available enough? Frankly, who knows? Like put these ankles in bubble wrap from like minute one that he touches down. The idea of him trying to walk on an icy Minnesota sidewalk makes me very nervous, frankly. So, you know, put that on the board. - Give him some of the, what's it called that you put on the bottom of your shoes? The. - Oh the crampons? - Yes. - Yeah, the crampons. - The hiking crampons. Let's, can we do that? - The crampons all the time for Lamello Ball, please. - Just to put in pink colors. - Yes. - And as far as like who he's gonna be in some of these like intense physical playoff series, we really have no idea because we've never seen it. And every time he's been in a play-in game, it's mostly gone quite poorly, so I really don't know. But his role is gonna be totally different. And I think the idea of him playing off aunt is very exciting to me. And those guys kind of creating a playmaking relationship is very exciting. But there are so many questions here. Even for people who believe in Lamello as a player and as a prospect and is, you know, a reader of the floor, this is gonna be something totally different for Minnesota that I think will probably demand Lamello step into a slightly different space than he's used to, that will probably demand Jaden McDaniel's playing the four, if not full-time, at least a significant portion of the time. And aunt to kind of figure out ways that all of these pieces make sense together. - I think he'll be a nice release valve for Anne, a lot of ways, but I think that this is going to, probably, there is a world where this suits Lamello pretty well. I mean, as the secondary guy to Aunt, because he can kind of move in and out of that primary role, as it, I mean, I was ahead of written down here. I mean, he was like the primary player in 59% of the hornets actions when he was on the floor. So he's used to being central. He can hit catch and shoot shots. He can sort of like, gnash to one side of the floor to the other and pass the ball and move it in a way that the wolves haven't had. Really, I can't think of a guy that they've had that's been like that. That's been kinetic and really versatile. But you're right, I mean, it definitely is, you know, they came into those playoff series being like, all right, man, we're gonna just bludgeon you and beat you up at the four or five spots. And it was like, they did do a lot of bludgeoning and beating up, but the guard depth and the versatility and the switchability of the spurs just kind of wore them down over time. Greener, they also had Victor Wiminyama, which matters a wee bit. But not having Nas Reed and not having Randall there. You just, like you said, Rob assume that McDaniels is gonna slide up. And then do you play IO out there also with Lamello and with Anthony Edwards? And then you got to be your big backstopper of Rudy Gobert. I did enjoy the tweets where people were speculating about Gobert catching all the passes from Lamello Ball, which a lot of people were quick to point out that there's a little problem with that sentence that it starts with Rudy Gobert catching. So we'll see how that goes. But it's gonna definitely be a shift of perspective for sure, similar to the Hornets. - I think they should at least experiment with like how much sticky tack can you put on Rudy's hands. Like how much can you get away with before a referee notices? I think it's at least worth trying. - We have big dude on our team in high school who struggled to catch the ball and our coach literally sprayed his hands with "I'm being serious that happened." - Have the same effect with a basketball that it would like a football? - I don't know. But don't you want to find out? - Didn't alter his career all that much, all this say. So, yeah. - That's my marriage. - The real analytics revolution is figuring out what chemical product will make Rudy Gobert. be able to catch high labs. That's that's what I'm looking to find. Well, he does feel even more critical to the defensive success than he already was, which is a real saying something because he was already practically the entire defense. And maybe that is the calculus that they kind of came up with here. It's like, despite the fact that we were big, we were counting on Rudy so much. I mean, the fact that he's 34 at this point, it does feel like a lot there. Although, I don't know if you guys have caught any of the clips of them talking about Johan Bergen lately. It's like they saw Jesus in the Dorito bag. It's just like, he went the length of the core between his legs and then he jumped it on a guy and he's like, whoa. And so maybe there is a succession plan already in place there that that will solve everything. But they are pretty thin on the wings. Not only you you're putting Jayden McDaniels down at the four, like Edward and I owe both six four Dante and even Chenzo. If he comes back healthy next season, also six four, Lamello plays like what is he? Six seven plays like he's five 11 and weighs like a hundred pounds there. So I don't think he's going to be much resistance. And so like no plays like he's five 11. He's a great rebounder for one. Like he's a little flimsy defensively, but right. Only incredible plays. Yes. Containment, maybe not so much. Yeah, but yeah, he anticipates. He can disrupt, but no, I mean, he's not going to he's not going to wall anybody up and stuff. So I guess you're just hoping that like you can get by in the regular season, you turn it on defensively in the post season, IO does enough of it. Then Jayden is obviously a menace there, but it is like a real trade-off. They seem scintillating potentially offensively. Like this is going to be an incredibly fun team to watch over the course of next regular season. Like how do they do it? Like how do the pieces fit together? Do they score 130 in game? Some nights when things are clicking. That's great, but it does feel like defense is like you're hoping that the backstop is there because you need it to be no matter what. Yeah, but if you have two all NBA caliber defenders at the four or five or the three and five, depending on how it shakes out, and you know, a quiet bit of business that they re-up Jaylen Clark to come back as well. He has to be, you know, an important part of the rotation defensively given everything else they're giving up. Maybe that's enough to get you where you need to go or at least the start of where you need to go. And I would hope that the offense can counterbalance it. And that's kind of what we're going to have to do with the wolves is changing our understanding of where they win, where they've been such a solid defensive team for so many of these last couple of years since they've gotten Rudy Gober. That's kind of their anchoring idea in a lot of ways. And then the offense has been a little wild, although that settled over time. Now they're a team that could be an explosive offense that I mean, I would think Lamello Ball is probably the most overqualified second unit offensive driver in the league at this point. Like I can't think of another guard, like a guard tandem. They would feel as good transitioning from starters to bench as Lamello with whoever the wolves want to try out with him. Let's jump off of that. How many back court tandem in the league are as good as Lamello Ant? This is what I was kind of going through here because if you have decided that what you need next to Anne more than anything is the juice offensively and that the handling in order to complement him, you tried it in the front court with Julius Randall's worked okay the first year didn't work the second year. I get moving on from him. But if you're trying to find another guard who is like reasonably available, the list is actually very small very quickly. And so I understand going from the Mel the guys I wrote down are it's like Fox who obviously didn't had a worse postseason than anybody. Garland small going to be an issue defensively. Murray Jamal Murray, not exactly the type you want. Like you get to age a Mitchell very quickly. And I don't think even if you give everything up for him with the thunder why the thunder would be interested there. And so like Lamello is almost process of elimination. The guy you default to because you need what he brings. When you need what he brings and you need what he could become to right for everything that we've raved about what Lamello did with the hornets offense last season. The most exciting part of his game is that he still does have fat to trim and dumb decisions to weed out and the idea that he could be exponentially better than this even still. You're not going to say that about a lot of the guys you just listed who have already kind of reached at least the first levels of their potential or just don't have as high a ceiling as Lamello does. And so that's where you get a wolves team that understood that they were going to have to do something that felt a little bit aggressive or a little bit desperate. And so once you make that decision and once you find yourself having to replace versions of the team that you've been. Why not swing for the guy that has upside as opposed to you know, yet another stable Mike Conley-esque point guard to slot into the rotation that would be helpful, but not transformative. I'm serious about the back court. I mean spurs. Obviously you have castle Harper. You can keep fox and there's the triumvirate. But they're there. I don't think they're as good. No, I mean offensively not as I mean three. They're probably better defensively, but it can turn it on and off. Obviously, but the thunder with Jalen and Shay. Graham, they have a lot of guys. And you think, I mean, that's the echelon that you're talking about. They would have to prove that's things to prove. That's assuming that I'm specifying Jalen as a guard. Yeah. It's like he's like a wing guard. I mean, he runs pick and roll. He can you know, hit dribble pull-up threes. He can really, really pass. I mean, it's he and so far he had an amelo similar qualifications. I think in the way that they play play types, you know, size. I'm just trying to think it's not a lot of competition. No, in terms of the quality of back courts and the league. I think the lakers are probably the one like Luca and Reeves, like that's that feels like the kind of firepower we're talking about as far as like a true star star back court where they can play off of each other where they can spell each other. There just aren't a lot of teams that have that kind of investment at both guard positions right now. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm excited to see what they kind of turn up here. All right. Can we actually say one more thing before we move on Justin just because I think we kind of zoomed past it. Phoenix doing this Miles bridges trade. Fucking preposterous. Like why? What? So as a result because they traded their 2033 first and unprotected. The players in that draft are around 12 years old right now. They can only trade one more first round pick from here until 2033. And that pick has already been swapped twice. So they're 2020 and then they also have three seconds available. One of them they recouped in this exact deal. Yeah. For Miles bridges. The dude who anyone who was watching the Hornets last season of putting knowledge was like what was holding that team back effectively in terms of their best lineups. But I guess if you if you have to give up a future unprotected first that not only could be an incredible asset in and of itself, but hamstrings your team in the process in terms of its trade flexibility. You just got to do it. Yes, he balanced out the roster a little. You know, he's not a shooting guard, which is nice. That is something I guess. Go get Morris Peterson or Gore and Souton. I'm trying to think of some other Spartans who might be available. Doesn't the team seems like work for the team? He does. I mean, look, Dreymon's a free agent now. Maybe you make it. The godfather offered a Dreymon to come in some. I don't know where the money comes from, but you know, when you think about Isaiah, Thomas being around, I think this is sort of proof that we kind of continue to be whoever we were in that like six, eight years old range. I don't blame. I don't blame. It should be for that. It's kind of like I get star struck when Tashon Prince is around. You can never stop being who you are. You know, I started a team. Yeah, I'd find a way to get Keith Bogins in my front office or something like that, you know. That's why I'm such a cool guy because six through eight. I was just, I'll just crush and you know. All right. Other intriguing situations still left on the board here. We each brought one to the table. Rob, do you want to go with yours first? Yeah, I would in the vein of the Hornets and these teams that had interesting seasons with some momentum and then doing something kind of radical. The Toronto Raptors are just everywhere right now. They were in on the Lamello ball derby before they got outbid by the wolves and now there it seems like hot and heavy to trade for Kawaii Leonard in a way that would accelerate a lot of plans. But also, I mean, just makes me very intrigued by how Kawaii would fit into their team. Clearly a legend in Toronto. A Raptors reunion would be great for a bunch of different reasons. But if he goes back and like re-ups on a longer term extension, I mean, they would kind of have a little bit of everything that you need to be competitive. I don't know that all of it is in the right place at the right time in their careers just yet and the east is certainly stacked in its way. But a Raptors team that already had my attention would I think be putting its foot down in a conference where you really have to feel stable to compete with the best in the east right now. Is this Kawaii move? Is this the, is this? So he has this change of heart, obviously. We flip from, you know, he's trying to get out. He would only go to L.A. He doesn't want to be in Toronto. He doesn't want to resign there. I know it's happy as they were about him getting that championship. It was just like, man, you really don't want to stay really man. I understand, I understand that feeling from Toronto fans. But suddenly he wants to go back. I'm just kind of like, is this, I'm, there are a lot of people at the ringer who would pull heat references and I've seen the movie. I love heat. I don't typically pull them. But is this the equivalent of like, he feels the heat coming around the corner and he's just like, we need a safe house for a season and then I'll make a decision about what I want to do next. We need to flee to Canada. That's the move. It's not feel that way a little bit. It is weird because it's like it's a coming home but he left Toronto specifically to come home where he's from in L.A. and that was literally the big store they had billboards up all over the place. Remember those spotlights over, what was it? It's like street lights over spotlights. That's the one was the slogan. I was like Jesus Christ and then nobody cared about the team for five years and and Guad just steadily scooped out the soul of whatever they had built. Um, yeah, it's, it's a really weird thing, especially because a lot of the guys you're hearing is potential salary matching or just other assets going out are basically the two to three years that Messiah had before he went out, just like getting any sort of mid-tier veteran and none of them work. It's just like, it just shows how much respect he carries around the league and with us with media that everyone's like, oh, maybe, maybe he's doing something here. Maybe he's buying low on quickly. Maybe there's something with the grumb and just none of those guys really matter. If anything, your team is Scotty Barnes. Some guys you drafted more recently, CMB in particular. RJ Barrett's been good, but he's getting still paid like he is a foundational player, probably needs to get back on an extension less than that. But it's just like, Ingram, do you want Ingram? Do you want it quickly? Do you want Portal? Like, all of these guys just do not matter to their future. This, if Ingram is involved in this trade, going to the Clippers or otherwise, I, it would really cement his legacy as like the guy you trade for when you have nothing else going on. You know, just like involved in various superstar acquisitions because he's good enough to make money and productive enough to talk your way into it. And congratulations. Now you have Brandon Ingram for two to three years until you decide to really be serious about it. Yeah. It's the equivalent of like, when you're trying to pick what you're going to do on like a Saturday night, this is the cycle that like, you know, you could go see a movie. You could go to dinner. This is the cycle magnet I go through where like, once every two or three years will be like, we could go bowling. You want to go bowling? And then we go bowling. And we're like, yeah, bowling's cool. That was good for one night. And then we wait two or three. You know what I mean? I feel like that's where Ingram is on the list of, he's the equivalent of like, I mean, we'll go bowling. We can't, we've done everything else. We have nothing else to do, you know? I was, I was going to push back because I do love to bowl. But also have I, have I been bowling in five years? All of a sudden I look up, I wake up in morning and I have it and I need to rectify that. People love to bowl here. I think because during the winter, you just need indoor activities. Then I got to say, it's fine. Your wrists really start to hurt after a while. Those balls, man. I think something's wrong with your technique. Yeah. And also you, maybe your ego is making you pick the bigger ball, maybe? I don't know. It's probably what it is. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm doing. I get a lot of torque on that, you know? You're going on a lot of bowling dates and just going straight to the heavy end of the ball rack and being like, look, this is, this is no problem. You a spinner? You a spinner, Justin? I don't even know about this. No. He is a spinner, you know? Big baller over here. Okay. Who's the, who's the giant, Tim Lensichum? Yeah. Just had that really wild wind up and just put a lot of torque on the ball and then he just like his career was over. That's going to be me. That's you out of the bowling alley? Yeah. They call them the freak. That's what they call me too, the bathing scene. All right, next stop, you want to talk about somebody else? Kyle, why don't you do yours? I know. I'm not going to get on the same level as some of these other dudes, but I liked this deal. I made this joke on Twitter that here we go. This is just like, I used to be in sneaker groups back in the early 2010s, very, very involved with like Facebook sneaker groups and you can make a killing because there would be dudes on there, this is a little aside here, but there would be dudes, there was a whole culture of you could only wear it once, it couldn't even have a crease in it, a crease of any kind. So there would be these dudes who would buy new releases, has a little crease, they get off the shoes. And I lived in that little marketplace, but every once in a while, every once in a while, there would be somebody with a gigantic collection who would, for whatever reason, from afar, I don't know why, they would just have to suddenly get off of a lot of their stuff. And in a short time frame, and it was just a fire sale and you come up with some crazy stuff. One time I ended up with like Concord Lowe's and some, and some sport blue Jordan threes. People who love sneakers are going to know what I'm talking about. I got them for $180 together, Koo the Century. That reminds me a little bit of what's going on with OKC because the price that they, that the pistons got Isaiah Joe for, to me, is great for the pistons. Like I, I think that that it suits a need for them. I wanted to just kind of, I just think that he is going to fit a certain role for them. I don't know if he's going to be a star, but I think adding him was a, the, the thunder didn't necessarily need him, but the, the pistons, I think it's a great fit. I have some more thoughts on it, but I'll let you all react to it initially there. If I can mimic your, if I can mimic your own, Nikhil Alexander isn't as good as Yannis in corduillity, Isaiah Joe is not going to be a star, but he is very good to the point that he might be the pistons fifth or sixth best player as currently constructed. And they just picked him up for basically nothing. Well, I think the pistons are going to be really intriguing this off season because they are in prime position to absorb guys like this because they have the defensive contact and Cade Cunningham in order to empower those guys. They really just need some of these shooters we talked about with hero. They just need offensive juice and those seem like the easiest guys to get. Having said that though, I get two seconds for a, like a steady rotation player, it seems like a low cost. Actually, I think the two seconds got rerouted in this sort of deal, but whatever. If anything, it feels like a lot considering that everyone knows that the thunder needed to dump money. If anything, the thunder's players are so good that they're giving up two seconds just because there's so much competition to get to those guys. Yeah. But I also think that's a real market though. Like it may not be the return you like, honestly, I'm just like not fretting over giving up two seconds for a good player who can actually help you in the playoffs. If you're the pistons, he may not be up to the thunder standards to compete in the Western conference finals. But if you're Detroit still trying to break through, still trying to run through some walls and figure out how to shoot over the top of them, this is more than acceptable to give up when lots of teams could use an Isaiah Joe literally shooting over the top of them. Look at this stat. Listen here. In the past, let's see. I had this written down in the past three seasons playoff and regular season combined. There have only been 19 players who have shot more than 400 relocating catch and shoot shots. That means you, you're not just stationary. You got some little movement on it. 19 guys, best shooters in the world pretty much. If you look at the list, it's like the staffs, everybody. Isaiah Joe has the highest field goal percentage among among that group. This dude can shoot the shit out of the ball. So it's kind of like the thunder as they went into playoffs, you know, his minutes went down. I mean, he was down to like, he was under like 10 minutes per game because they just have a lot more options that are two way players. And he decreased as they went down. But for the pistons, I think they have great defensive structure to kind of protect him. I just think that they they feel the need here. I think he's going to hit shots for them. It's going to work. I also think guys like Isaiah Joe are really important as you're kind of buttressing Jalen Durran as hopefully a more viable stable playoff performer. The pistons need to figure that out. Like how do you, how do you keep Durran aggressive? How do you keep weaponizing him? How do you keep him from falling into the sort of lulls he fell into into the playoffs where he just didn't seem like a useful offensive player from long stretches of those games. There's a bunch of ways to do it. One of them is you really enable him as a handoff option for guys like Duncan Robinson and Isaiah Joe. And you force teams to play up to him because someone has to handle for Isaiah Joe coming around that handoff, coming around that ball screen. And then you can do all kinds of things with Durran rolling out of that and getting good action out of it. It's not a perfect solution, it's not a one size fits all, it's going to resolve everything that's going on with Durran, but it's a start. Durran is probably going to get paid more than you would have expected after watching him in the playoffs because all it took was one team or two teams. The Lakers out there needing a center threatening the restricted free agent offer sheet that's going to force them to pay more for them to give him more than that. And so you hear his name get associated with the Jalen Brown conversation. I don't really see that fit specifically and especially with a team like the Pissant that have so much going for them, he's going to get paid more than we expected and it's going to be fine there. But I agree. I think what they're adding on top of that makes sense. What they need is often they don't need to completely just up end what this team already was despite what a Travis that he was in the postseason. I also think like just big picture is this just not a case in point of like taxing the rich actually works like the thunder have an abundance yeah penalize them and then all of a sudden they have to disperse it to the lesser teams. Man Justin Mom Donnie you're really coming in from the top rope radicalizing group chat. I'm just saying. Did you guys anybody going to kick the tires on Jonathan Isaac anybody anybody interested can I any takers. Well, I can I can think of at least one major cable news network that might be interested in services. Oh, boy, before we go one more from me in terms of an intrigue. What's going on with Nikola Yokich man. So he didn't sign the extension last year. There were financial considerations there where it didn't make sense long term if his aspiration was the bank as much money as possible on the extension this year not as much of a case. But I have to say it does remind me a lot of the yana situation now we have to go back several yana situations ago where we just kind of think like all the the form born guys are just going to stay it out here just make the best of their current situation they're not like the a you generation we're going to force the way to this team or that team. And my thing with that was always like I think they're just like reasonable and then if the team isn't good enough they probably don't want to stick around. I don't know if that's going to happen Denver has a lot to get through this off season. It seems like they're open to tearing up their entire team around no catch if it happens I think you're seeing with the wolves there it becomes kind of a dicey preposition where it's like if you just like just up and what works for something that could be better there are a lot of risk inherent to that so we'll see but it does feel like at the very least like if he doesn't sign this extension things could get pretty dark pretty quickly when And I think the assumption was, you know, he was going to be there no matter what. - Yeah. I don't think there's any reason to believe just yet that he's going to leave. But if you were Nikola Yokech, wouldn't you wanna see more before you sign up to stay? Like the nuggets are in a very odd spot where they're both like getting quite expensive because of all these guys are wanting to invest in and already invested and paid Watson is due for a new contract this summer as well, but also like clearly not good enough. And I think the wall that they ran into into the playoffs where Jamal Murray was just like really overtaxed. Christian Brown just had an absolute flop of a season. Aaron Gordon's injuries had become a real recurring problem for the team. Cam Johnson was really big in the elimination game but also had like some no shows along the way. They just need more. Like this is a team that needs to be reimagined in certain ways, whether that's a Jalen Brown size move or some smaller ones. They're also potentially going to lose Tim Hardaway Jr. they might end up having to lose Jonas Van Junis for salary reasons. There's just a lot of like bloodletting happening here. And in a way where if I were Nicole a Yokech, I think I would want to kind of sit back and see what is my notoriously penny pinching frontoff is going to do to get us out of this jam while also giving us a position to grow going forward. - Yeah, I think it's way more just about trusting that they're going to do right by me and no. But I just feel like Yokech, more than any other superstar in the league just has some Larry David to him where I just can't imagine. I just can't imagine him going to another city and dealing with like not, I'm sure he knows people all over the place, these are NBA players, but I just, I can't imagine him wanting to deal with the bullshit of going to a new team. Him more than any other superstar. I mean, why is it the only guy that like, 'cause he just doesn't play the game. Like, you honest. Jonas kind of plays the game, likes to be loved, has sneaker deal, does endorsements, all kinds of stuff. I just, Yokech, that kind of leveraged, I don't see it with him, 'cause if he ain't going to a party, if he didn't know anybody, and he probably still won't go to the party. - They respect it. I think the real dark timeline for him is, is this not a one season reboot, no matter what they do, this is actually two, because they're in the uninvival position, at least two, because they wanna keep Peyton Watson in some of their younger players in order to build Ford, because their older players are more injury prone and starting to age out. Despite the fact that those are the players that you probably need to hit the highest level of the team, and so your count, you need youth, but you're counting on the inexperienced, and I just, those two things don't typically coalesce with like high level expectations, and when now mandates, especially in a West, where, as we mentioned, the thunder are just shedding, like their 14th best player, and we're like, this guy might be his top seven rotation player, for the best team in the Eastern Conference, it's just like, it feels like they're playing two different games, and so if I was Yokech, I totally understand him, and I actually respect him, perhaps like, holding their feet to the fire, because like, this situation isn't good enough, it probably won't be good enough, long term, and frankly, if you wanna go elsewhere, like bro, live your best life, as long as they could just put you up in a hotel, where you don't have to talk to other people, as Kyle is talking to you, like, we could figure this out. - I just think there's, everything you're saying is true just in about the tough balance they find themselves in between the reliance on these veterans, and also the need for higher variability. I just don't know that the high-end version that you're talking about anchored by veterans really even exists anymore. Like, I think that part is already deteriorated between health and just aging, and natural kind of regression of the roster, to the point that they do need to be a little bit more dramatic, and whether that happens this season, or this offseason or next, really depends on what's available on the finances that are difficult to untangle here, but the championship version of the Nuggets hasn't really existed for a long time. And we've been hoping, and like, oh, if they get healthy, oh, if this guy's available now and then, maybe they can recapture some of that magic, but we're going on three years right now, and I think they've won two total playoff series during that time, like, that's just not good enough. - Yeah, the tide shifts way too fast. It gets late so early in the NBA, and it's a young man's game. And I just, you know, we've seen it. You're right, we gave them, I think this was the threshold that we crossed, where we just kept giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I know I was guilty of that too. In the playoffs, I was just like, you know, and some of that was, you know, they took OKC to game seven, and we were like, okay, it's still in there, but this was the first time where it was like, it might still be in there, but the injuries are just putting a lid on this in a way that I think is making them rethink it in a serious way. - Yeah, is variability something that we can work with? - Well, I like that. - Yeah, I like that too. But what would it be, like, what does it mean? - The biggest swing players in the league. - But isn't that already what the variables are? - Sometimes. (laughing) - I should mention that we are finishing this up at 1036 AM Pacific Time. Not a lot happened, Andrew Wiggins goes back to the heat, which is nice. They need him, they don't need bodies on that team. But a lot of things kind of we skated by here, Marcus Smart opting out, seems like he's destined for perhaps the rockets. But we shall see. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Coruse, thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll talk to you next time. - 21+ in present and select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Starkicino or 18+ in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming, gambling problem called 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-MyReset. Call 1-888-7897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support and Massachusetts. Or call 1-877-8 Hope-NY or text Hope-NY in New York, Louisiana. Call 1-877-770-7867.