Golden Nugget #109 | Retained Search Strategy: How to Position, Pitch & Close Clients at 30% Fees with Elizabeth Kennedy

Let's segue into really breaking down some of your business development side, I think, because like clearly this is an area that you've really excelled in. So when we prepared for this, some of the things that was very evident to me was your very detailed orientated. Yes. I've got like nearly 10 bullet points here on like your sales process. Yeah. But before we go there, because I think this is one of the core lessons from Q1, is talk to us about, I've got here non-negotiables input based, like talk to us about what you now, and this is something that's been speaking to some solo founders about recently where we're just talking about it there. Like you're no longer part of a team. You have to hold yourself accountable. You have to figure out what does a great week look like. You haven't got that manager over your shoulder to go in. Lizzy, you haven't had a very great week this week. How come you have to do that? You have to take that onto yourself and you have to hold yourself accountable, which is why having non-negotiables, figuring out what does a great week look like? What do I need to be doing to get close to my goals? It sounds like when we're prepared for this. You've really figured that out. We've got a really good grasp of that. So talk to us about that. What does like a good week look like? I've got here every single week. You've got profile kind of this client contacts leads. Talk to me about this, because I think this is a good lesson for people. For sure. So I think the first thing I do in terms of, you know, this is not necessarily metric space, but typically there's kind of two or three objectives that I set myself each week, as well as I make sure that I have kind of a thing which does these the shots are. And this is kind of what I have to close out. This is what my pipeline looks like. But there's two or three objectives, which are typically inputs based that I hold myself accountable to. And it could be a any to profile bob to these 20 client contacts here. Really simple thing, but essentially these are things that are entirely in my control that actually there's no excuse by the end of the week. If I haven't done this, that's because I haven't put the effort in to do this. And that's entirely on me. And then in terms of some of the high level metrics, yeah. So there's a certain number of hiring managers I'm adding to the system each week. That's certain number of candidates. Certain number of candidates screens that I'm conducting. So there's obviously the conversations piece, the candidate and client conversations. They're more output space, but it's the inputs that I really focus on. I'm not even focused on sendouts, first interviews, anything like that. It's about the candidate conversations, the leads, the adding of the hiring managers and the candidates, and then profiling at least one kind of each week. And then I think if I'm doing all of that stuff, the other things will come. And so I'll get those pitch calls booked in. I'll hopefully win more clients, win more searches, that sort of thing. But I don't tend to focus too much on outputs because I know if I'm doing the other stuff right in the qualities there that will come to me. Right, Stetka. Yeah. Again, it's so market-dependent. But like if I was to look at your white board and you said, yeah, I had a good week. What would I be saying then? Roughly different numbers. Sorry. I feel like you should. What I say is there. Just say it. What would be like a good week on those numbers, roughly? I do even 500 grand in Q1. So I don't know, like that, I guess. So what would have been a good week in that queue? Do you get what I mean? What would have been a good week on those inputs? That's what I think people would be interested in. I'd say, I want to be adding at least the 13 new hiring managers. I want to be profiling probably two candidates from carefully honest with you. Two a week. Two a week. Two 25 each. But that's like relentless follow-up. So I'm following up pretty much every day. And then in terms of candidate conversations, so probably having brand new candidate conversations, I'd say 10 brand new candidate screens. And then in terms of then pitch calls or client conversations, I'm having at least 10 new client conversations in a week. So it's like it's just a lot of bashing the phones kind of targeting the right people. There's the leads piece. I mean, I didn't even say leads. Leads are like the number one day. So I'm going to have a good week of leads, you think? I'd say in terms of leads, like really solid candidate information, like niche information, I'd say probably 15, like really, that's like exceptional week. But you know, I probably target five to ten of really good bits of information that will lead to things. Like typically, you know, if I'm getting 15 bits of information, that should convert at least five pitch calls or five calls with contacts and that sort of thing. For me, it's all those inputs there that are going into, you know, it's a funnel, you know, the classic funnel approach. And it's pretty wide at the top. But there's all those different elements, all of which are entirely in my control that are kind of going at the top. And then stuff starts coming out at the bottom. And it's about, you know, we've said about the iteration and refining and making sure that you're figuring out what works for you in terms of approach and things like that. But I think I've kind of got that down pretty well. So now it's really about getting those numbers in for the rest to come out. I don't have to do so much of that now. I don't need to do those kind of really big numbers because a lot of what I do now is comes from from referral. Yeah, 50% has come from referrals, yeah. But you have to like the bit what I want you to share that is then people can listen to that and they can go, you know, what? I don't know that for my desk or I don't know that for my business. You've got to figure that out. Yeah. The thing that I love about, especially when you're an entrepreneur, like all those things, there's a lot that you can't control, but all of those things there that you just said in time of control. Yeah. That's the helpful part, isn't it? And you've got to figure that out. Yeah. And then the more iteration and more experience, you can go, you know, what? When I had my best ever quarter, this is what things look like. If I shoot for that every week, downstream from that should be, I hit my monetary goals and I end up where I want to be. That's what you've got to figure out. And then that's where you've got to hold yourself accountable. That's what I want to share that that's helpful for people. Yeah. And you can make mega money. I think that's it. You've got to, it is the inputs. I think a lot of people just focus on the app is they focus on sendouts and first interviews. I'm like, cool. You're already too far ahead. A lot of that is not in your control. Do what's within your control and the rest will come again, as long as you're kind of doing the right sort of things, then you'll do really well. And it's just effort. Like I don't think you should have to say this, but like if you're not willing to put in the work consistently, like you have to be consistent, you're not going to be successful. And then I have to ask you, you've just said how important they are. I'm just always curious, like how do you, if I was in your team, you've got team members now. Yeah. And you're like an exceptional week leads wise would be 10 to 15. And this is what are leaders. Yeah. What would you say? A leader is where you've got exclusive information from a candidate or a client. It's basically someone within the market where they're saying that they are hiring or there is intent to hire or you're finding something about what they're doing in drug development, so in drug development, there's certain phases of the process. And so they might be saying, are she we're anticipating top line data here at this point. And you'll know that that is a trigger point for hiring. So again, if they're getting positive data, that will leads to then, okay, we're progressing to phase three, which is maybe a global study. And they're going to need a ton of people to help execute that study. So those are the sorts of things that we look for. And then obviously, we can kind of piece things together from that. It's not necessarily exclusive, but it has to be information that is not in the public domain that people would know about. And you have got that from having a conversation with someone. That would make it even more valuable as a list. Yeah. So it's not like we've seen a little crunch base or like this. Yeah. I hate that. I really hate that. And even when someone's just launched, if they say that they've raised a series or a series, because you're too late, they've already got that plan. You know, they already know what they're doing. And much like when someone posts a job, I'm like, that is the worst. I hate ad value. It's like, yeah, it's good to know that they're hiring. That's important. But like beyond that, they've already strategized in terms of how they're looking to fill that position and then might have already engaged a search firm. So you're too late. Is it fair to say then this is where operating in the senior part of the market can help with this. Doesn't make it any easier. But in terms of the people that you are speaking to, they're more likely to be in the rooms or involved in strategising as to when this might happen. That's the benefit. I feel like. 100%. Yeah. They're in there making those decisions or they're part of those decisions. So yeah, they're privy to so much company information. And if you've got that relationship, I mean, that's the one thing I really I love doing. And it's very important is that face time with clients and candidates. I'm always meeting with my clients and candidates in person. And it's a much better way to build rapport with someone. Of course, you know, on the phone is fine. VCs fine. But that in person, it just you can't beat it. And then from that, the amount of information that you can it's not that you can get from something that sounds awful because you it's like, I'm trying to. Yeah, it's a lot more natural together. It's a little more. Yeah, it is. It is. You're just having a conversation with a friend. You know, that's really what it is. But you've built that rapport and that trust that will enable that exchange of information. And it's invaluable. How many meetings do you're at face face meetings, you're can you have a quarter roughly? I'm meeting with candidates and clients every single week without fail. Yeah, yeah, without fail. I also because I like getting out the office. I think it's important. Well, I like thinking the audience is well, I think it's nice to get out and it's having a change of scenery. Even if it's meeting someone I've placed or a client getting out is it's nice to kind of break things up. But you are very intentional about that. Very intentional. And then you've been in the game longer than me, but that's almost become like a competitive vantage again. 100%. Yeah. So the question I want to ask you and I don't know if you have asked this sort of more hiring managers, it could also be a bit of people that you work with from a talent perspective. Have you ever asked someone the other recruiters that you work with, how many of them have you met? Have you ever asked that? What recruiters? So if you're you to meet a hiring manager. Yeah. Have you ever asked them? Oh, yeah. Like curious. Like how many other recruiters have you met? If you find a few other, I can't say. There is what I bring up is like quite a few people this year that I've sat down with because they're big on face to face getting out, doing these things that seem real benefit to it. When I asked that question most of the time talking 90% of hiring managers have spoke to saying no, actually it's interesting to ask that. I've never actually met the recruiters that we did spend over six figures with. this year. So that's why it's interesting. Yeah. I think it's just the norm there as you say. Like I think when you've been doing it for so long, there's some people that are new at the game, especially people that started I guess from, you know, 2020 onwards I'd say in those COVID years, when they didn't have to go out and or they couldn't go out and meet clients. And I think there's kind of a, I just say, maybe a slight generational thing where, you know, I'd say to some of my junior team members, hey, let's go, we're going to go out and we're going to meet these people here. We're doing this and they've visibly, there'll be fear and no things. And you know, you couldn't get them to go out. It was kind of weird. The thing here to highlight is as you're knowing, being part of recruit hub, there's a lot of UK firms that now serve the US market, right? And this is one of the, if you'll listen to this and you're in that and you're on the journey to get over to the US or you're in the US right now, yeah. That's one of the things that you shouldn't be complacent with. That's one of the your edges that you're in New York, in the US. This company has spent six figures with us. Whatever. You've got to be present. And also, I think there's a lot of UK people that are based in the UK that they set up and they say, well, we're going to do the US market and they maybe haven't done it before. And in a people always say, or recruitment is recruitment is recruitment. It is not. The US market, it's different to the UK market. And the US, it's about relationships. It's not about performing a transaction. They want to know that you give a shit and you've got to demonstrate that you give a shit. And it's about working in partnership with them to solve their problems and is their workforce problems. And you have to be equipped to have those conversations. It's not about, I'll just send you any old crap and we'll fill this job. And then I guess what comes with that is the meeting in person. It is meeting both candidates and clients. They like it when you've met candidates in person. If you say, yeah, yeah, I've met these five people here that I've sent through to you for interview. And that gives them that sense of, okay, this person is what they've doing. They've asked all the right questions. It gives that sense of security as it were. And as I say, it's about building that relationship and being consultative and not being transactional. Love it. Let's break down the sales process. Just sort of side note, have you always worked on like a retained basis typically? No, I had in my previous company, but a lot was contingent. It wasn't a 9% like this. No, question. No, absolutely not. So let's just break it down first and then we'll get into it. So sales process in terms of what ends up happening is you end up winning retained searches is discovery calls. From that point, we then have pitching solutions. From that then point, if they then begin working with us, we'll then do role qualification with the relevant people. Then there's a particular tool that I know recruit have right called code that's one of the ways that you present talent. Then from that point, you have a solid process, weekly search reports, 20% on signing, 40% on short list of free 40% remainder when they start. Let's break this down a bit. So I think when I speak to a lot of recruitment entrepreneurs and they first start out, you can tell me, you think about this on the client business development side. One of the things that they do tend to struggle with, particularly more early on, but can be throughout is like, what is Liz's point of difference? Like, what is Liz's USP? I don't know if that showed up for you. When you started first having some of these pitch calls and some of these discovery calls, how do you think about that? How did you position like, this is why we're different? Or is that even important? I don't know. Yeah, I think it is important because there's lots of other recruiters out there doing what you do. I guess the thing that's set as a part, I'd say, is our process. Obviously, you've got to get to a point where you can articulate your process and get that. But my thing is kind of my market niche in the area in which I operate. I'm very good at articulating that on an initial call, but also of remal as well. So I'm pretty good at articulating over remalto, then get the call to then have that discovery conversations and then go through the process. So I think my thing that makes me stand out is my quality approach and the fact that I do have a pretty unique network of really, really good candidates. And that enables me to move very quickly. I think what's really interesting about this when I sat down with recruiters that operate in this way, I think one of the main differences that I find and you can tell me what you think about this is this discovery call piece. And I think that's one of the main differences I feel like because when we speak to recruitment teams and we're helping them develop their teams and they're really trying to get their team to connect the dots, be more commercially savvy and take a step back from the job brief and ask smart questions and try to get the information you talked about earlier around the different triggers that might happen later down the line and the bigger picture. That can be really hard to get to when they've been so used to being like, Lizzie's got a brief or Lizzie's hiring. Tell me about that person and then I'll go get them, get them, get them, get them, get them. The recruiters are operating this way, whether it be exclusive, retained, whatever, or want to operate it more in this way. They're really disciplined and militant with, no, no, I'm not here to talk about the brief, I'm not here to talk about the person who hired me. We need to understand where are you on this drug development jet, like, whatever. Is that fair? I don't know, you tell me. This discovery call piece is absolutely crucial. So one, do you sort of agree with that thoughts on that? And then two, I want to understand how do you position this when these hiring managers are so used to go and recruit to, yet Lizzie, we need X. I think that I position myself in a certain way where I've already elevated myself, my offering, what I'm about, where I'll have a call with someone and I'm very clear on the invite, but also on the call. I control the flow of the conversation because I will open it and say, right, so the purpose of today's call is to find out a little bit more about exactly what you're looking for from a partnership, how you typically engage with search partners, what the future looks like. And then we can come up with a plan, moving forwards, surrounding how we can execute this over a long time period of time to make sure that we're solving your problems and we're working in partnership together. And so I frame the call at the beginning. So there are no kind of misconceptions that we're talking about a specific search or a specific candidate or anything like that. It's really about what are the problems that you're facing right now, what are the problems you're anticipating in the future, and then how can we work together to solve those. So it's really about asking a ton of questions in that discovery call and then saying, okay, look, I think there's probably a couple of approaches we can take here. Sometimes I'll deliver an approach on the call because it's really clear. It's like, okay, we've got these three critical VP searches here and we need them in post yesterday and that's clearly retained search. But there might be somewhere like, look, there could be a longer term kind of project approach here. So we'll need to come back with a few different options. That's, you know, we've scoped things out. We've got a high-level understanding of exactly what that looks like. And then let's book in another call. And then another call, then you go through the solution of what you're proposing, the benefits to them, the advantage to them. And genuinely, with a lot of companies, I find it weird if they've allocated budget to go to search and then they pitch a ton of search firms against each other. And I'm like, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you identify a partner to work with that is going to work in partnership with you? They're incentivized to work in partnership with you as well. So it's about getting the incentive right and whether that's paying, you know, some upfront, some mid-three process, some at the end of the process in kind of a fair trance, then that person's incentivized deliver to your roles. And actually, you could potentially get a really good deal as well if you're a client, if you're, I guess, retaining a search firm because you could probably get a reduced fee as well. And there's just so many benefits to go and retain. But yeah, I would say that typically it's discovery call and then we'll sell different solutions that we think are relevant for that client. We'll share the benefits and reason why then we'll get an MSA in place and then we'll do the role qualification. But I think most others get it the other way around where they'll do a half-assed role qualification on the first call. They'll try and get a few candidates over. In the meantime, they'll do some crappy MSA process and maybe they'll get something signed for one search and then that's it. So one and done and the transactions been performed. This approach ensures that you're more consultative and you're creating more opportunities for yourself. Did you say that? What was that? What was that stand for? MSA, oh, I'm asked to serve a agreement or a terms of business. Tons of business. But if I'm listening right now and I'm like, yeah, I would love to work with my clients and customers way more in that way. What would you say? You hadn't always worked in this way. What would you say if I'm listening right now? What would be the main benefits to the recruiter to being committed to not just falling back to the status quo and going about telling you done things like you were just saying? What are the main benefits to me as a recruiter if I'm committed to working clients' mothers when having more of this approach? What's the main benefit to a recruiter, do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think the obvious benefit is is that if you've got a client that's committed to partnering with you, the probability of you filling a search and ultimately generating revenue is significantly higher than working on a contingent basis against maybe five other search farms. It's just I would never put myself in that position because my probability of monetizing that relationship is so low I'd rather just go do more BD and try and win another committed client that wants to work with me. And so for me, it's about working with people that are committed, engaged and ultimately they want to fill that role or many roles within their company. And so the benefit is I'm generating revenue. I'm probably having a fun time as well because I've got a client that's nice that values me and values what I'm bringing to the party as well and they're not just treating me like a resume provider and that means that you can also provide a much better quality candidate experience as well because you're not up against loads of other agencies who are I guess hammering or using the same rubbishy tools that you do that will make you stand out as well from a candidate experience perspective. And have you found because I'm sure you've done some reflecting on you. One, have you found also with this approach the sort of average spend per account has been fairly healthy? I know it will vary, but I feel like that could be the other benefit as well, right? 100%. One of our biggest objectives, so we have four objectives that we focus on in the year, and one of them is around client spend. So one is we want 15 accounts of which we've got eight that are over $100,000. And so far this year we've got four over $100,000. We're obviously at the end of Q1. So I think we should probably hit smash that number. But that's so important for us because it enables forecasting, moving forwards, and actually I remember my company. In November we'd sit down with the CFO and be like, all right, cool, we're putting budgets together. So where's our money coming from next year? I'll be like, finger in the air, I'm like, I don't know, maybe this client here, and it was based on nothing, and actually now very confidently coming into this year, I can say, right, I know that we're going to generate revenue from this client, this client, I know that. Then in turn, that enables us to forecast for hiring as well. So we know confidently we're going to generate a certain amount of revenue with a handful of clients. There are others coming down the pipeline as well that are demonstrating the kind of right traits. So we think, okay, we're probably going to get some more here. We're in the room having those conversations, surrounding workforce strategy and human strategy. So we know exactly what that looks like when a client is going to search, they'll come to us and say that forecasting piece is it's a game changer. And as you say, that enables us to then hire other people at certain times. Yeah, I just think if you listen to this and that is one of your priorities this year, it has to be. Yeah, because I saw you posted about that the other day as well. Yeah, it's just a really like, I think we can all be caught up on like, like you just said there. Didn't you and Sean, if you're so reliant on we're going to hit our target this year with clients that don't even know we exist here. Right. That shouldn't be like your core strategy. I think there'll be companies that yeah, you've had interviews with or you've done some work with, actually have you got a clear strategy on how you take them from spending $10,000 with you to a hundred K-1000. Even if you got that as a priority and you've thought about that journey and what you can do, that's a really good use of time. Yeah. I think you should be done. I want to just double click into the discovery calls really quickly. Bar the sort of industry expertise stuff that you would be asking the smart questions around. If I was to listen to one of those calls, what would be some of the really good quality questions you'd think that I would hear? Because you said around the word that we start hearing me think about this process then problems. I think I always want to try and make it as easy as possible for people to understand like, well, what does actually mean? Yeah. What would be some of the smart questions you'd ask to these people to uncover problems? Is it around their hiring process they've had in the past? Is it around previously when you've worked with search firms? What's worked? What hasn't? I don't know. What are some of the smart questions that aren't the market stuff that maybe people can start thinking about when it comes to building their own discovery? Yeah. Cool. I mean, I think the market thing is important because I would ask that fast and I open with, okay, what does the pipeline look like? What are the sorts of milestones that you're looking to achieve this year? I think once you're asking that question, that then gets some thinking kind of more macro. Right. Okay, these are the different kind of things what areas we're hiring to. And then they'll all say, sometimes there's like, in a half moment where they're like, shit, there's like, we've got a lot going on. Haven't we? And then that feeds in nicely ever. Okay, right. So how many of you got in your team currently? What are the gaps in your team? How about contract or consulting and palm? What's the split between the two? When do you envision that will change? Is there a kind of a trigger point where some of those contractors will go palm? And what is that? When do you anticipate that to happen? And then you kind of move on to the engagement piece of, how do you engage with search firms? How have you engaged previously? What has been your experience? What did you like? What didn't you like? What are you looking for moving forward? So I ask all those kind of questions that are around that. Okay, I don't actually, I was going to say occasionally ask about spend. I don't really ask about spend. I kind of don't care about that. We're having this conversation because there's obviously a need here. And then that's kind of when I go through into our methodology and how we operate. So I think once I've asked all those questions there, I'm well equipped. I'm like, okay, right. These are the things I need to pull on. It's the classic fab selling. You know, or is that okay? Or they've mentioned that they really like this search firm. Provided them with a long list of candidates before they reached out. Right. Fab, I'll mention that. Okay, well, something that we do is we use Coda and we create a whole long list of candidates based on a search qualification that we've done with you. And then you'll click the candidates that you would like us to profile. It's an interactive tool. So you can leave comments, we'll leave comments as well that enables us much smoother process. So you've mentioned that you need these people in post as soon as possible. If we're working in that manner, that means that our time is being saved because we're reaching out to the people that you're most excited by. So we'll prioritize reach out to those profiles and then we'll have screen ankles with them. So you kind of kind of go through that whole process with them. But you can only do that and you can only articulate your methodology once you've understood what their pain points and problems are, the challenges they faced, the things they also like and really lean into that too. And then you can kind of go on to pricing and things like that. Yeah, I love that in the site there on actually what you found the best way to start these conversations, which I mean, we said some high high moments, but also it's those hiring managers are going to realize, oh shit, like Liz is actually asking me good questions here. Yeah. And like, this isn't just a typical recruit or call because I'm having to think about the things that we're thinking about in the boardroom of projects, the deadlines that we have, what happens if we don't hit them and you've got to figure out that for your market. But I like that. So actually starting there and again, I think that's one of the best ways that you can showcase with action, your expertise, what you're about, how you're different. Yeah. But I think getting them in that frame of mind is probably where you want to start thinking about what are those good quality questions that you can ask whatever that is for your market. Yeah. Because then you can work backwards from there. Okay, you said that you'll target this year because you're VP of sales as this and you'll fit and bind right now. Is that an, do you know what I mean? Starting there and then working backwards from there. Yeah. Exactly. I think a lot of the time I'm always very clear on there when I'm having these conversations, I'm always pulling on previous experience and name dropping people. So I'm name drop clients that I work with and specific hiring managers. It might be CEO, CMO, CSOs and even talent folks that I work with as well. So I make sure that I'm name dropping people that they would know. And again, that provides immediate credibility. It's like, they work with science. Okay, fantastic. Right. And you're immediately elevated then from a conversation standpoint, which is always a good thing. Yeah, love that. If me knew to chat after a pitching call when you said that went really well, what would you have done well? Oh, good. I don't know. From what you said, you would have looped it back to like what they told you, they're probably like that. That's like core of it. Yeah. You've understood. Could you said this? This is how I'm going to propose that we want. That's at the core of it. Yeah. But is there anything that is in, I don't know, important there to share on the pitch. I make sure I'm prepared. I don't over prepare there. I think you just have to do. I think there's some people that kind of over prepare for things. I just like, what are you doing? It's just a waste of time. The best thing to do is ask good questions. That's it. You've got to make sure you're prepared to ask your questions. My questions don't change much from cool to cool. And then otherwise, I think the thing that probably makes me stand out is me. I'm quite pastive all. I'm very happy to get to know someone. So I think that definitely makes me stand out. But I ask good questions. I listen to what someone's saying. And then I articulate a solution that is right for them. And I believe is right for them. And I can back it up as to the reasons why. And then do you normally do that with like visuals, pitch deck, not really your thing? No, I mean, it depends. I think I'm pitching for a big project. Yes. But otherwise, I don't do too much. I think a lot of what I'll do. I'll back up some things we want to have had a conversation. I will always send through kind of a high level, I guess, a methodology breakdown. Just surrounding how we do things. A lot of process. Yeah, there's like a 10 page document that's been put together. It sounds like a lot. It's not really that much. But it just breaks down the overall search process and to end a lot of that we discussed in the course, some of what you haven't. And then it also includes kind of pricing breakdown as well and what that looks like. And again, you make it as standard as possible. This is the norm. And I think a lot of people apologize for being retained or for charging 30% of base salary or whatever it might be. It's like, no, this is normal. And I think once you normalize it and that conversation and you can demonstrate the value that you're bringing, yeah, of course, I'm charging 30%. And yeah, it's going to be retained. And yeah, it's going to be 20% upfront, 40 on sure. There's 40 on star. That's just it. If you start working with a client, so I've only got here weekly search reports. I don't know. What are the main differences is if we're menu working retained, what are the agreements in terms of deliverables then typically? I'd always kind of high level, I'll share the search process. And I'll say you can expect us to short little long list, I should say, probably 30 candidates within 24 hours of a search being initiated. 30 really good people that we think based on their LinkedIn profile or what we have on the database would be capable of doing this job. A lot of the time, you know, a candidate is capable of doing the job, but really it's about understanding culturally, whether they would be the right fit for that organization. And that's why it's so important to get to know the client really well and that the meeting in person and cadence calls and things like that are very important. So 30 long list, then we will send that long list through to the client using Coda, as I say, as an interactive platform. They will check the candidates they want us to prioritize reach out to. We would say that we want to screen 10 candidates. to be able to then submit five candidates for interview. Typically, if we're reaching out to 20 or so, we will have at least 10 conversations. And then as I say, from that we'll get five sendouts. And then from that, that'll interview probably three to five candidates. So our ratios are pretty good. And then from that, we know that that will lead to placement. That's enough candidates to get through the process. Do you have like a cadence with the client you work and we say in sweet you're going to have like a cool talk about how you've gone on or not? Yeah, yeah. So what we'll do is we'll also have usually as a Friday cadence call with the client and we'll kind of go through some of the conversations we've had. We tend to focus also on why someone might have said no to being kind of put forward and we'll share feedback. That leads to a sometimes altering the search as well. So if it's a particularly challenging search, these conversations enable us to pivot slightly where we need to to then find the right candidates and kind of progress forward. But then they also do get a search report with qualitative and quantitative information. So really it's just the high level here are additional candidates. We've added so obviously I said the first 24 hours is 30, but we might need to add more. So we're always kind of searching and adding more people. And then we kind of provided break out of the numbers, the notes as well as associated with candidates we've spoken to and any any high level kind of this is the feedback we've experienced here. And then hopefully that enables us to close out of search confidence. It's a really collaborative approach. Yeah, no, it sounds that. And then I know very, but like typically how long are you saying to customers from this point we should have someone suddenly a contract? It does depend. But again, I think because of this approach, we take hiring seriously. And if our clients work at the say, well, all our clients do work in the same way, they're demonstrating that they take it seriously as well. So all our clients are very responsive and following this approach usually will have within six weeks. There'll be someone signing on the dotted line. There's some processes where it's more of the interviews can slow things down a little bit just because we've got somewhere it's kind of a 10, 12 stage interview process. So that can sometimes take a bit of time. But yeah, within six weeks we can get something from search initiation, from qualification call to we've had someone sign. And then if you had it yet where you worked in this way and then didn't deliver, so that's people's biggest fears typically. Yeah, no. At least 100 we haven't. We actually haven't. And no, and again, I think it's about working with great clients. You know, I think that we've turned down clients. I've said no to some clients. He's like, oh, we only work at 20% contingent. I'm like, good for you. You continue doing that. And if you're getting what you need fabulous, like that's absolutely fine. That's just not how we work. But so far, touch word, we actually haven't not delivered. The reason why I bring that up is one that's often can be when our speech recruit is about working this way, that can be one of their biggest limiting belief here. There's a lot of things that go into it. But then also that can be one of the biggest obstacles from the client side. And quite a few people that I've spoken to, I don't know if he's come up in your conversations or not. But from the conversations that I've had, they've said that the hormones they've spoken to, they've engaged a big search firm and then they haven't delivered and they didn't get funded and that's part of where a lot of this faith can come from on that side as well. We actually want to client that way. One of our biggest clients, they were working with a big search firm, Shrek Farm. We're talking big money. So it was like up to 40% of base and bonus and fringe. So we're talking insane fees here, you know, $250,000 fees and they hadn't delivered. And so they had been burned with this specific client I'm thinking that they were so desperate to have goods talent. And I demonstrated that I have goods talent in my network that they said, OK, we'll engage you retained and we'll still be on the hook for these fees with this other Shrek Farm. And we don't care because we just need to work with someone good. They're now one of my best clients. So I think I was kind of, I was a lucky, but I kind of managed that in the right way. But there are a lot of clients as you say that say, oh, we've been burned previously. I really think it's just about being able to demonstrate your value ads a lot of the time. And not everyone will go for it. Like at it, you know, someone will still say, no, like we just don't want to move forward with this. And this is why until you've proven yourself, we don't care. Sort of thing. It's contingent or nothing. If someone said to me, right, it's only contingent and you've kind of gone through all avenues and you need to kind of build some sort of credibility. And I'm like, OK, I may be considerate if it was fully exclusive and we still have cadence calls. And there's kind of the, it's a very collaborative approach. But otherwise I'm not working for free. You have access to my network. If you want me to prioritize your search, all my other companies I'm working with and clients I'm working with are retained. So the reality is I'm probably going to prioritize them because they've demonstrated that they are committed to hiring above you. So I think that would be the kind of downside for any client that wants contingent. But I think I'd always focus on, you know, even if they have been banned, why I'm different, what makes be good. I give them references. I'd say, look, you know what? I'm obviously telling you these things. I'm selling you. I think I'm good. But I'd kind of say go and speak to this client here, this client here independently of me and ask about their experience. And if that aligns, let's talk. So I definitely kind of use that to my advantage. But definitely something that people should anticipate from a client perspective. And in that example, you just give because this is again one of the things that I know when you're recruitment founder, it's just a bit, it feels a bit different to say no to work and walk away. Have you had to do that? Yeah. Where you've judged it and gone, this is a client that I think ticks a lot of boxes. And you know what, we've gone for every avenue. Okay, I'm going to agree to working this way. But then this is where I want us to end up working. Have you had to do that then? Oh, actually, no. I haven't. I've turned down clients. I've said, no, I'm not working to this and good luck. No, I haven't kind of done it where I've done. I've started contingent and upgraded to retain. It's just been this is it. We're doing retains. Yeah. When I spoke to people that operate in this way, the way that you are, it's not even an option to work mean you work. It's glues contingent. That's something that they do say is like again, perception, positioning, it is really critical. Yeah. But I'm assuming on this pitch call, you don't go, well, we could work in this way and it's it's glues contingent. You're like, this is how we're going to work together. It's not an option. No, it's not an option. Just think about it, isn't it? If you want to work to this way and the best time to do it, you never work to a customer before. They don't know any different in terms of work and validity. You could be confident. I think if you're confident in how you're delivering it, but also it's about teeing it up in the right way. So if you've had the conversation of all these problems, pains, you understand exactly where they're at. You're like, I know that you're in a relatively challenging situation right now and you need someone that will partner with you and then it's a have I demonstrated through my methodology and approach and some of the people that I've worked with that I actually do deliver and I'm really good at what I'm doing. And like the answer's, yeah, cool. Why wouldn't you go retains? It's like it's it's a no brainer and that's all I pitch. I give options. It's not like saying, you know, if you're buying a house and you're like, okay, I could offer you 500,000. If that's the asking price, I could also offer you 450. If you're the vendor, which one are you going to take? 500. Of course, you're going to take 500. Like it's a dumb thing to do. You'll take the lowest common denominators. So I don't give an option. I might do an option around payment terms or I might change things up a little bit there. It's like, okay, if you want to move faster or I don't know, you want to get cash in the bank quicker, you might do something different there on percentage like stuff like that cool, you can get creative. But in terms of the actual approach, it's like, no, it's retains. Sorry, we're okay. Yeah. Love it.