Golden Nugget #104 | The £30k WGP Blueprint: First Principles of World-Class Contract Recruitment with James Gamble

So should we talk a bit about your philosophies and about what you've been doing really well, you think, or how people listen to this can have some of the success that you've had. So when we thought about the sort of key building blocks, almost, the first one that we spoke about was this market knowledge piece. Why don't we just start because we put a deep understanding of your market. I know this everyone would have heard this, right? So interested in here, you take on what that actually means. I think you said to me when we prepared for this, you stumbled across this niche almost. It's a very famous story. Really? How I fell across. Tell us a bit about it. Yeah. So I'll have turned this over. How long you've been doing this niche? 12 years. Okay. Nice. Yeah. So I do have recruitment because I've got made with Dun Dun from the bank or doing mortgages. I'm going to go for an attention here now because it's a war story. So I thought, where can I make some money? Recruitment seems like a viable option. Didn't tell anybody I was in recruitment because I was quite barrisht about it. So I thought it was like car sales. And you know, S3, I was on dinner very generic market rounds like project managers, BA's, you had to send a male shot out to the database at like 12 o'clock. And my one was, are you currently recruiting? Was a subject title? And then it said, I recruit for BA's, PM's if you're interested. Let me know. Like an awful email. A client came back who's a vice president of Sea of Logistics and said, we don't recruit those, but we do recruit Red Prairie. Red Prairie. What is what the WMS, the warehouse management system was called. You guys, if you've got anybody, how was I? Yeah, obviously, obviously, whilst giggling Red Prairie, right? And I thought, I like that. That's a niche. I placed two contractors within in the Netherlands. And then because it was such a niche, I thought, well, surely every warehouse has a system. So then all I need to do is build that out. And that's how it came about. How about that? But most importantly, it's when you stumble across a niche, it's how do you build out that niche? A lot of people might have just gone out of just field to random roles. It's like, how would you actually properly build that out? Because I was the first recruiter to do that market. Yeah, that's such a cool story. I love that. But I think the key there is that you was willing to go, yeah, I can get you people. Well, it was funny as well. It was actually running the client about three, four years later. And I was like, David, as well say, thanks ever so much for what you've done. He was like, what are you going on about? I said, well, yeah, you helped me on the journey. He was like, yeah, you just found me a couple of people in the Netherlands. James, it's like, it's not a big thing. It didn't care at all. So yeah, I mean, I think it is just building out that niche and understanding that it's a niche and how you can value it is massively important. So let's just break that down a bit. So we've got here a market known as deep understanding of we put the tech here because obviously that's involved in like the deep understanding of what the people that you work with actually do, what the companies need, staying informed. And we also put like leveraging events and stuff. But because we hear this so much. So when you said like building out the niche, what does it actually look like? So if I came to you and I was in your team, and we stumped, I don't know, maybe we identified a certain niche. It was a certain, I don't know, another warehouse program that certain warehouses would use if they're producing certain types of products. If I came to you and go, I found this niche and I've mapped it out. I know it. What do you expect to see from me? What do you mean? So you know, you said that you have to like, proper, build it out. Yeah. I want to understand from your perspective what that actually means. So like if we, both identified somewhere, yeah, and I went away, and I was like, I'm so out. Yeah. What do you expect to see? So my thing would be what's the top 15, 20 contractors in that space? And how many clients use that technology? And you should know every single client that uses that technology. First of all, and then you should do market research in terms of being to contractors and saying, okay, what's the market like in this area? How long are contracts? How many upgrades are there? New implementations, et cetera, to understand the size of it? Because like you can have a niche as one person that does it. There's no point in that niche. It's about how is it scalable? And I think you need to really truly speak to the people that are on the ground that understand that world and are passionate about it. And also not bullshit them as well. Whenever I went into that market, I was like, I've got no idea what I'm going on about. Can you teach me? Can you tell me about it? So I think market knowledge is one that is just so thrown around as well. Everyone says there are market specialists, et cetera. But you just have to understand the technologies really well and understand the clients that are going to be using that technology. And that's really straightforward to find out. It's not complex. Whenever I have these conversations, it does always start with the contractors and candidates. Just interesting to hear you take like a fun listen to this and I'm fairly early on. Yeah. Why would a contract to give me their time? Because you're being honest. Okay. So it's amazing what honesty does. So what I did have the contract now, like we're looking going into a new version of the rest that we've never really gone to around SAP EWM, never really touched on it historically. And what we're doing is we're going to meet them and say, look, we specialize in these other areas around the contractors. Concentrate as the contractors. Yeah, and consultancies as well. So we specialize in these areas of WMS, we're dominant in these areas. We're not in this area. Can you just tell me about it? Like tell me the idiot's guide. All right. You can tell that I'm very much specialist in these other areas. I want to get into this area. We'll be able to publish it as well. Because we applied the same methodology as what we've done. Just talk to me. Okay. And people love talking about themselves. So why wouldn't they? It's if you call them up and try and say, yes, I've done SAP EWM for the last 10 years recruitment. And they go, do you know what EWM is unsan't for? And you go, no, all credibility's gone. If you're honest and authentic with people, why wouldn't they want to give you your time? Is part of it also, do you think you'd get more traction, more conversations if also part of the approaches that you specialize in X as well? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I think, well, for an example, like John, who's recently joined me, no underdunning around to be met at all. But he's building out like the sort of tier two solutions for SAP EWM being one of them. And he's doing exactly what I've said. He's saying, look, James, you probably heard, you may have not heard of, but he's been in this market for 12 years, works for all these different clients, UK, Europe. We're looking expanding into this area as well now, can just get some of your time. Just been really honest, authentic. Well, it's like they hit right on that. 95%. Really? Yeah. If not 100. Fair. Do you think it's important to try and like also give something to them, like, besides being honest, being authentic? Or is that not actually that important? Because I feel like if you end up actually doing really well in the space, it's really beneficial for them. It's really beneficial for them. If you go on it and say, I've got a job, you know, it recruits you. How many people put on LinkedIn that have been ghosted by recruits for all the jobs being fake or whatever? Like if you can say, we're building out this, if I can understand how good you are in that market, when these opportunities come up, which they will, we'll take you to market to try and get you some work as well, we build long-term relationships. Why wouldn't you want to do the most important thing though these around the follow-up after the initial call? So people just don't follow up with people, just don't understand it. Like, hey, why wouldn't you want to meet somebody to go through it face to face with them, take the time and the effort? And then why wouldn't you follow up and go, I've heard this project is kicking off, we're going to try and get you in here. Or have you got any connections that could help us get in there or whatever it is? So when you say follow-up, you don't mean that really straight away after that call, you just mean in general in terms of like, I only speak to you once and then we haven't speak for a long time. Yeah. Otherwise, you're renting simply for information with no form of benefit for them at all. So I think, yeah, that regular concept saying that we've heard this project can be kicking off, we're going to try and get you in the mix or whatever it would be, it's just vitally important. But that's why it's good what I'm doing over with the NXA at the moment because it really isn't difficult to really quiet standing in the recruitment market because the standard is so low in the environment. You're right, you're right. It's so low. It is just doing those things consistently. Consistently. Yeah. As Densar Washington said. Being really honest here, I've heard this a lot more in the contracts based and it's around what you're talking about here. I think what happens a lot is this fake job thing. Yeah. That happens a lot than that. Mental. So why do people do that? So do you want the inner workings and the trips? Yeah, let's just keep it real. Don't just do much just to get on the point. Yeah, let's just keep it real because I've come across that a lot because like so much of building a market is like through the contractor information. Yeah. So I've just come across that so much more. So the rationale behind it is that somebody will post a fake job to get to speak to candidates about it and then get places where they're interviewing to try and get that work on. In the main to generate candidate speech. Okay. That's the main goal. Which is why recruiters got such a bad reputation. Is it not part of it? Also, I haven't really got anything to speak to James about. So I'd rather like actors if I have. So me and James have more of a reason to speak because I've got a potential. But how do you speak to them about? Yeah. But like, how stupid is that? No, but that's what is that also a potential part of it? Or is the main reason like I want to get leads on and getting on and see whether it's where they've been before, where they go back to like that sort of stuff. But you know, for me, it's not all your credibility, doesn't it? Yeah. I've seen some horror stories when someone said they've got a job at the HL as an example as the job they were recruiting for and the guys gone, well, I'm there currently and they're not recruiting. Yeah. That's a main. So I think that's what I mean about the bar being so, so low. Do you be honest? Like literally just be honest and authentic because this is the thing, he's in his world right, is that I think that I really struggle with is that some of my wife can't understand, I'm a dad, certainly can't understand recruitment, but you're placing people with people, it's a people business, but yet we don't take the time to go meet these people and just be authentic and be human. Don't understand it. Like why do people want to do that? Mental. Or why they don't think it's important. Mental. I literally just I do not understand that. The thing that you mentioned earlier, which I thought was interesting, which you sort of just said off the cuff as well, was you also need to understand the scale of these projects. Just tell me a bit more about that, because you said if you come across a niche or something, maybe a particular tool or software that people use, but then in terms of like, rolling that out in a business or there's a certain project that other things that it works, but like it just involves one person rolling that out. That isn't really what you want. Tell me a bit more about that, because I think that was interesting. Well, I think when you stumble across a niche, like how I did, I only realised there's one or two people that use that technology. So totally relevant. So I think what you need to understand, when you are building out a contract book within a niche, because I'm only ever been in that sort of area is how many users are there. What is the actual, how many contractors are out there? What percentage of the market is that you could obtain realistically? So in my world, like the probably the total weekly GP you can get up to as a maximum would probably be 40k. Okay. What are you based on after? Like LinkedIn searches or what? I know everything. candle in that market. Okay. In fact, do you remember? For like, okay, but you didn't know one point. Yeah, I didn't know one point. So how would you map out the potential of a contract book? Would it be LinkedIn? LinkedIn. Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn. And then, you know, little things like when you go on to like a CB library or a job board, whatever it is, and you type in that technology, and then you do updated ever. So it brings up every single one, and then you just speak into all those candidates and laughing out, but you have to know what the scale of it is. But obviously with my, with my technology as a city for every warehouse, has a warehouse management system, and that is global. Yeah. So part of it is how many people actually specialize and do it. Yeah. But then the other part was saying, like, so if I'm rolling out this, I don't know how it works. I'm acting stupid here, but if I'm a warehouse and I'm rolling out this software, you're saying, what would also be a really good green flag is that, in order to do that, there's like ten contract and you should do that, not just one. Yeah, exactly that. And also it's the longevity. So like the programs work that I get involved in now are some of them are eight years. Wow. Yeah, the average contract length in the market is six months as a minimum. So you know you're not going to get a load of churn. I mean, the other thing was, well, what I would recommend to people, so what I actually, I actually, basically, I could create a universe, but I created the contract market in WMS. In WMS. So I don't know how I managed to come up with this. So a permanent person would be, it back then would have been paid 40 grand per, 30 grand per maybe. So what I was doing was I was ringing them and saying, I'm going to get your contract for 300 quid a day, 400 quid a day, whatever. And then on a month, on a one month's notice period. So I took a lot of people out of Perm into contracting because the rates were a lot lower because they were permanent. There's good margins to be had on that as well. And the client was really happy. The candidate was really happy because they were an in farm woman in the whatever earn as well. So I probably took 50 to 100 people out of permanent work into contracting. And is that still the case now? Yeah, I still part of the game. Okay, I want to get into that because I've come across that a lot as well. And I'm interested about that. Okay. In terms of what that looks like. Just to round out this bit here then, we also put staying in form. Like what does that look like to you? Obviously, making sure we were speaking to a network. Yeah. Knowing who's the best. So like that, that's part of it. Anything else again that we're doing? Is it just conversations meeting people, speak to people? Like is it anything else that we can do to actually stay informed? I think like little things like being subscribed to newsletters around your industry is really, really important. Give you more information. So like in my world, I get like there's a magazine called the logistics manager, which lets me know where new sites are being built and stuff like that. So you can follow that information. I mean, even in my world, I've got relationships with people at CBRE that build the warehouses. So I know when they're going to be going up ahead of when anybody else does. So I think you have to get as much market fresh from as many areas as what you can do, as many touch points, as many trends as possible as well. I think it's really, really important. But you only get that from the end users or the people that physically are doing those systems. It's really truly immersing yourself in that world. I'm incredibly passionate about. This is what I was wondering about next question. And I can tell how passionate you are. Do you think you have to be without question? Really? Do you think it follows to do your market? Yeah. And I wasn't that passionate with you. But like I wasn't that passionate about warehouse software or logistics. Yeah. You think that would impact my success. You wouldn't be successful. Really? Yeah. Do you think that's a cross market you've seen? Now you've worked in bigger businesses and stuff. Like do you think that plays out? Yeah, I think it's not just about the market. I mean, I love my market, right? So when I'm driving the car and my wife and the car and you see a lawyer go by. And I go, "Jell, what else makes me system that you use?" I'm like, "I don't give a fuck." I said, "I couldn't care less." So it's passionate about that, but it's passionate about people. That's the people in the industry. Just people. So the biggest thing that I love in my job is seeing the amount of people that have managed to change their lives. The byproduct of that for me is money. How fantastic is it that you can take people on a journey. Hold the hand. Change the lives with other great career or more money or whatever it would be. So they can provide for their families and all the rest of it. That's the beauty of what we do. We change people's lives and people often just forget about that and look at it like a transaction. It's got to be passionate, got to care. Fair enough, yeah. Because you hear that a lot as well. But you can tell how much of an edge I give you. But also how much it's going to be a hard chance that you can do this for the long run, which is when you're going to really read the rules for your hard work. Yeah. And if you're not passionate about it, you're not going to do the extra work you need to. It's been detrimental to me. I've literally been detrimental with how much work I've done and I've struggled to switch off. And I've done a close deal at a family wake and also, yeah, like mental. But I just love it. So every day for me, I just love it. Literally everything will more than a wake up. And a day or two hours work on a saturday in the Sunday. Get some business environment going and all the rest of it. I just love it. It's love it. So the next thing that we got then is known your numbers. Let's get into this. So curious to hear your take on this. When you've had your contract book at its peak. Yeah. What typically did the client spread look like? And then my follow up question is what if we were to build out the perfect contract book that would diversify perfectly, what if you now did it like, but typically what did you or diversification look like? Because a lot of big hit is contract wise. I've spoken to you. They've ended up landing this like one monster account. Yeah. And then it's like generated most of their. Oh, good spread is like 10 clients in terms of seeing mitigating risk then because there's always a chance that funding is going to get pulled. There's always a chance the projects going to be pulled earlier, whatever. So I think it's like, I've seen it so many times where literally the consultants had a call saying we've terminating contractors and going low 10 grand wgp just gone within four weeks. So I think being over 10 makes it safer as well. And I think it means that you're not just relying on one account where people can get really lazy. So when you say 10 clients, how many contractors across each of those clients do you think? I don't think there's a set number to go. I think that if you can get two to three contractors at each one of those clients, the reason why I say 10 is because again, what recruiters do in the main one of noticed is they'll win a client, place a contractor, move on to the next client. They won't nurture that relationship and really go out there and understand of how many contracts have you got, how many times you go external with an agency, what she's spending them in like, I'm going for a slight tangent. But when I first started doing the domestic market, I won MNS as a client many years ago. And I went and saw a lot of water side how so I said, so it's been the director, I was like, I'm smashing it here. I have these contractors. I've got 10, 15 contractors, whatever. And he was like, James, how many people do you think MNS employees just at water side? And I was like, no idea. It's just like 5,000. And he goes, how many are working the contractors? I said, no idea. He goes half. So again, perception of what good looks like. That's such a good lesson. Such a good, I mean, absolutely. Yeah. Me and my little one. Yes, in my little world, I was dominating. You said you're killing it as well. Yeah, I was like, I'm absolutely smashing it in there. I think it was much for the interior. It's like, you've got such a small percentile. What you want to get to a point of is, do a great level of service for these clients, but also knowing that you should be able to get repeat business two or three opportunities a month from 10 clients, really, is what you would sort of hope. And then it makes the business development a lot, lot easier. I think if you say one track with one client, very, very, very high risk, very high risk. Yeah. Because you obviously learnt how to do this now consistently. I was just speaking to someone today about how they're training their team to do more of this because they're just all contract can very much just be like, deal, move on, deal, move on. So if I was to place one, two contractors into a client and we've identified or I know that they're probably hiring other contractors, what would you do in, I don't know, maybe the next 90 days from me having that initial success with them? Am I, are you saying to me, he should we need to get into that office and meet them? Absolutely. What, what am I doing in those next 90 days that could lead to like repeat business, do you think? Yeah. So I think for me, when you take a role, Bri, from a new client, you have to put out your store in terms of how you recruit and how you've shown it's been successful. Because a lot of clients will go just send me a CV, right? And I've got to 12 of the agencies and all that sort of stuff. Never get hold of them, really poor commitment. What about to is put back to them and say, this is what works, right? And part of that is the after placement meeting, a coming on about meetings with people like, people just don't meet people. I just don't understand it. So for me would be first 30 days meeting that client to do an after placement review, meeting the contractor afterwards, because it can be a bit awkward if you've got the contract from the client and the contract is doing a shit job, the client can't really say much. So I think that's a really, really important one. And then meeting the candidate couple of weeks afterwards or something like that. But speaking to him frequently and just saying, what are the projects are going on? How many of the contractors are there and then doing a lunch, bringing the contractors that aren't via you to a lunch as well? 99% people go, I've never met recruiter. I haven't met my own recruiter. I don't know. Yeah, so I think that's the most important one and just them knowing that you're present when they need resource. Because what you want to understand is like red, amber, green projects have worked. So the clients are speaking to go like over rolling quarter or six month period, what projects think are definitely going to land, which one is think are potential and which ones are like an absolute fly, but if they come off, you're going to need resource. So we benchmark and resource them all the time in terms of this is what the time that's available should you require. Can you get the client to share the pipeline? Right, that's interesting. And then you give them a category of green amber red. Exactly. And then you know that there's a good, you shouldn't just look at what is coming in day to day. That's all shouldn't. That always needs a focus. But what is going to be coming in on what potential is that going to land? When would you do that type of meeting? Is this after like you've actually started to work with? What the red and the green? Yeah. I would do it before we've in place with them. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if I want to get in with the client, that's where I say this is how I go above and beyond. This is what I do with your competitor. And you're probably going to know who it is. I was like, with this client, this is his name. This is what I do for him. This is what's been successful. This is where I can do better than what the recruiters are that you partnered with at the moment. So it's almost like a way of differentiating yourself. Love that. Because what you're doing there is you're getting them to not just think about semi-sevy's on the this contractor. Yeah. You're getting them to think about, well, this is where we are today. And actually, yeah, this is what we're all sort of already planning for. Yeah. Et cetera. But then you're a resource partner. You're resource in the projects for them. So perception and then there's an exception. Yeah, exactly. So you're intentionally getting them to think about that and talk about that, right? You're not just talking about, yeah, I've got this person that's done this. And to you point when you're saying about contractors, about fake jobs, when you're speaking to the contractors, you can go, I've got side to these projects that come out. in with this client. Yeah. This should be coming in. I'd love to get you in the mix on it. It's the market information again. Mark Intel. I love that. So one thing that people can take from that, and if you've not got some sort of after placement care meetings as part of your process, you need to implement that. Yeah. Sharper. I think I don't get again with recruits, is like, we're such before about they don't own the contract book. It's a reflection they don't own the contract book because they don't give enough time and attention to really go meet these people. I can't even go about the meeting thing. I just don't get it. Well, let's just talk about that because you mentioned it a lot. So you do the UK and your at market. Yeah. I've also been in Egypt as well. Which has been a bit curveable. Okay. So let's just get your take on this then. If I've had a month and I say to James, I've had a good month for meetings. What are you expecting to see? What's their definition of what a good meeting is? I think when I first started out, I thought a good meeting and I hate this term. Now, I want to look back at our cringe and say, are you around for a coffee? Herific. Okay. I'm in the area. Right. Who cares? Right. So what have you got out of that meeting? And what I'll be in mind that is, is there terms that's been agreed? Is there future projects? What's the market information? Anyone can go and just book a meeting in a company. There's no value behind it. Okay. So you have to have measurable terms of what does good look like from a meeting? Well, let's break that down then. But firstly, I know we're talking about quality there, but quantity matters as well. We're not going to get anyone in a quality if we're not meeting enough people. But what does it agree with you actually? I really. Yeah. I think it's better to have five high quality meetings. Yeah, but in terms of what I want to get from you first, you said, no, I'm meeting anyone. So like, if I'm saying to you and I'm in your team, I've had a good month for meetings this month, not in terms of how good the meetings were, but I've, I feel like I've met a good amount of people this month. How many meetings do you expect me to have had? I want to hear what you're saying. I'm sorry. Okay. So what my interpretation of good would be? Yeah. Like in terms of how many meetings? Because you're saying very confidently, no, I'm meeting anyone. So like, what do you think is like, how often you meet in people? Is what I want to know? And what do you think is a good? So I would do 20 face face meetings a month. Okay. Nice. That's what I want to get from you. Yeah. 20. So five a week, potentially. Yeah. So like, I've been in London for the last two days. And like, after here, I'm going to see a comment for dinner. You know, I genuinely want to go and see him. Because he's a really nice guy anyway, if he's listening. But yeah, it's stuff like that is just, you know, I met the client for lunch earlier today. You have to make the most efficient use of your time. But I reckon the majority of cruisers would me want a quarter. And you're saying 20 face to face not teams. Absolutely not teams. That doesn't count. Okay. So 20. And then do you think that's also plausible if I do the Euro market that region commit to like going over, like batching some meetings? Okay. So let's do client first or someone with decision power, I don't manage whatever program manager, I, whatever the job title. What would make it a good client meeting? So you're saying some of the things there in terms of projects intel, whatever, what are some of the key bits? Yeah. So I think project intel is really important. But I think also rapport with that client. I'm in a position now whereby if I haven't got the right feel for the client in terms of relationship wise, you know, we won't work together. So I think I don't look at them, it'll look and recruit a ticket like all the takers don't know from managers, nor the rest of it. I think don't want to work for that client and that manager. Our terms agreed, our commercials appropriate as well. Because people often get concerned about saying what their rates are and all that sort of stuff. So I think it's that and then the commitment to be working exclusively together on pieces of work. I don't work on jobs that have got other agencies working on them. Okay. And if I said James have had 10 good quality contract to meet in this month, what does that mean for you? Information, but also like again, the rapport with the contractor and how much follow up will be having from those meetings. I suppose would be the big one. So what's the market information? How the contractors see in the market? Are they getting approached a lot by the sort of other recruiters out there? What sort of projects they've been spoken about, etc. I'm in a position now with the contractors that I have that I've known for so long. They send me other agencies jobs. Yeah, I hear that a lot when you do really well. They, well, they literally, what's up me and go? This is the client FYI. Get cracking. Yeah. I don't want it. So, you know, that happens weekly. Do you have your contracts in the WhatsApp group? Yeah. Talk to me about, so we put here weekly GP targets, understanding your weekly gross profit, target and how many contracts that are given average weekly GP. I think you said like it's so, we put here, know your numbers right. We're talking a bit about it. We're talking about the client spread. But talk to me about this weekly GP thing. Like if I was say, I'm a really good quality contract recruiter, what numbers would you expect me to know inside out? I can answer that very quickly. Let's go. So average weekly GP and how many contractors? Okay. And they're not people that don't know that. He's quite astounding. So how many contractors are more weekly GP? Yeah. As in the average weekly GP. The average weekly GP. Yeah. Per contractor. Per contractor. Got you. So we put here, challenging the average. Don't settle for the standard £100 per day margin. Yep. And that combines with transparency with rates. Yeah. Let's just talk about this. Got a key for you. Yeah. You've got a strong belief. So, so the one thing is the perception of what you should charge. So actually one of my team, an infinite said to me. So I'm going to give him the Q dose for it. Why are we charging £100 a day as an average margin? And the contract tells us, well, that's what we've always done. So what S3 put in me was like, that's your average £100 per hour and where your GP can't go below it. If you get above fine, but like that's just standard. So he said, like, why don't we just do £150 or £200? And I was like, I don't know. So let's just try it. So our standard now in NXA is £150 to £200 a day as a margin. Now, I think the biggest thing that we did at Infinite and what I've always done is saying to the candidate, this is the budget that we have from the client, the total charge to the client. So the client said to you, all I want to pay £600 including your margin. Like I said, it's the contractor. This is exactly what you're going to be charged out at. How can we make everyone make money from it? So there's no ambiguity. I tell the client exactly what the contract has been paid. So there's no ambiguity or that's the biggest thing that the contractor says to me is, the recruiters won't tell them what the actual budget. So what do you think they are a bit fearful of doing that? Is it because they don't want to feel like they're taking all the money? They don't want to be like, because there must be a reason. I think the reason would be that they are embarrassed about the perceived amount of money that they're charging so they don't really believe in their skill set, as soon as they bring it. I have full confidence in saying to the client about the percentages that we have because I know how much value I bring to them. So I think that in the curriculum, fortunately, you try to knock down a candidate, try and get as much margin as you can do. People don't go back to the client and push the client up and go, actually, they must have another 10% in your budget. I, what's going on, they don't challenge the client enough. When I've heard a whole story on rates, there's a guy who got hammered down on his rate, hammered hammered down. And the contractor? Yeah, but the recruiter hammered down. He was a project manager and he then was the budget controller. So he then saw what his day rate was. And it was sometimes like 200 quid margin mental. So he invited the recruiter on site to a meeting with him, resource meeting under that guys. And he just showed him he said, that's what I'm being charged at, isn't it, to the recruiter? And the recruiter was like, oh, yeah, it is. Says, you've screwed me down on the right so you can try and get that ridiculous, right? So not ideal. That's not awkward, mate. Yeah, again, I guess it's these edges right and being memorable, standing out. Again, just train it with real authenticity, honesty. But I think the bit that I take from there that when you were talking about is you've got a real belief on why your margin is the margin. Yeah. Well, I look at it as they're getting 13 years of experience and expertise. So that comes at a cost. But I do understand, if I'm listening to this right now, and the main reason why I'm trying to get the contractor down is because my manager wants me to, it's harder than that. Because that is not all it is. You want to hear a horror story? I got it. My own horror story. Of course. It's a horrible one. It's a horror one. So I placed a candidate when I was at S3 and we would at extension point and the contractor wanted more money on his extension. And we were making about £750 a day. So it was a big, big margin back then. So I got on the phone to the manager and started the contract once more money. Have you got more money in your budget? And she said, what are you paying him? And I hadn't told her. So say it was £600 a day. We were charging her. The candidate was getting £450. And I went, it's going to go out to her. She can't ask him, James, she's not going to tell me. I went, £450. She goes, you're making £150 and you're asking me for £30 a day. Increase. So your credibility, Nuked. That's horrified me. What happened after that? She never spoke to me again. Really? Yeah, never spoke to me again. Yeah. Would you instruct us to do that? Yes. My manager was listening into the call. I never liked James right. Let's try and get some more money. Yeah. That's the thing. When you're starting out in recruitment or any sales job or any job, you're led by what your manager tells you to do. No such thing as mistakes in life's lessons to be learned. That is one that will. Yeah, for sure. haunt me through every single day. So if I'm listening right now and I've never been transparent with my rates, might be in multiple, like, all different reasons. How would I go about starting to do that? Like, may sound obvious, but just interesting to hear you take. Like, we've spoken, maybe you might have been convinced by hearing you talking about it. How can I go about starting doing that? Do I start to speak to clients and making that part of my sort of. The way that I talk to them, contract is, how would you start being transparent? I think I would start by when you get a role brief and you get the budget from the client, speak when you're qualifying candidates for the role, doing exactly what I've said in terms of, this is exactly what you're being charged at to the client, section to quit. Why I ideally want to make 150, whatever it is, that leaves you with X. Are you happy with that amount of money? Yes or no? No, I'm not. Okay. So, as you know, I need to make some margin on it as well. Where can we fit into a happy medium and just see how it goes? And what you'll realise is that the candidate is then not thinking against Groot over. You've been totally straight with them as well. Nothing to hide. Because why should there be a sort of a foregarsie around day rates that don't understand it? So, that's what I would do. I would try on it in that way. But it is all about delivering. Obviously. Yeah. And also, make sure the figure that you're telling them is accurate. That's true. Because if they then end up getting on site and figure it out, that's what I'm saying. Oh, she's not interested. Yeah. Yeah.