Going 'Full Jew' & Embracing Identity (w/ Jonah Platt)

Hey, I'm Andrea, and I'm Melissa, and this is The Kippits. Hey, Ms. Pocha. Okay. I am so excited, and I might like have not slept on like I was so excited. We have Jonah Platt as a guest on our podcast, and Jonah's podcast being Jewish really inspired us to do what we're doing. We are constantly getting in touch with each other and saying, "Did you see this? Did you hear what was on it?" Yeah, and I mean, it has just been so inspiring for us as novice podcasters to kind of hear his work and everything. So Jonah, thank you so very much for joining us. We appreciate your advice from afar. We appreciate your time and your inspiration. Two ideas in particular that's stuck with us is your invitation to go full-on Jew, hence I'm wearing my father-in-law's chai, and your advice to follow your energy and attention rather than some abstract of your dream, and that helped us realize that what we needed to do was host this podcast. For our listeners who might not know you, can you introduce yourself and what do you want them to know? Okay, well, first let me say thank you so much. I'm honored that my show has had such an impact on you both. That's just like music to my ears, and I'm happy to be here today with both of you. Who am I? What do I want people to know? I'm Jonah Platt. I am a born and raised Los Angelino, the first of my family to be born here, and I wear that with pride. I am a father of three and a husband to an amazing woman, and I come from an amazing family that has devoted their lives to the Jewish community in a lot of ways, multigenerationally from my great-grandparents to my grandparents and their siblings to my parents and their siblings, and now to me and my siblings and our children. I really feel very blessed to have been born into such an active, engaged family that is so clear on Jewish identity and being leaders and giving back to that community. I spent my whole life really focused on a career in entertainment. It's funny. My mother's life's work has been as a Jewish lay leader and philanthropist in so many different ways, and my father's life's work has been as a producer in the entertainment industry, and I sort of ended up fusing those two things together. For the bulk of my life really until October 7th, I was very much focused on being an actor. I've starred on Broadway and in TV and film, I've written for TV shows, I have musical directed and performed improv all over the world and composed and all kinds of different things in the creative space. Then, really, because of October 7th, I have pivoted entirely into Jewish advocacy. I starred at my show, which I now host, called Being Jewish with Joan of Platt, which is now in its third year. I started because of October 7th. You know, what you mentioned earlier that sort of follow your effort, ethos. I found, well, when October 7th happened, I was starring in a play, a great play called The Engagement Party here in Los Angeles, happened to be written by a Jewish guy and I got to play a Jewish character, just sort of luck of the draw was awesome, and my days were completely free because I was performing the show at night. So, when October 7th hit, I just found I was spending every waking hour that I wasn't in the show online, using the platform that I had built mostly through entertainment, through some speaking about Jewish ideas and challenges, platform to answer questions and create videos and try to express what Jews around me were feeling and what my non-Jewish friends were feeling and speaking to them and just trying to really be a filter and a help and meeting with hostage families and, you know, putting out fires and just doing all of this stuff and a couple months into that, I realized sort of this is where my heart was telling me to do and I came up with the idea for the podcast. I felt like my show would check a lot of the boxes of what I wanted to be doing, not just reactively to the moment, but proactively with what I want my Jewish advocacy to look like and I built the show to check all of these boxes and it took me about six to eight months to learn how to make a podcast. I, too, was a podcast novice, I had never made one before this, but felt obviously very comfortable in the creative space behind a camera in front of a camera, writing scripts, delivering copy, all of that stuff and I had built quite a lovely network of individuals through my career who I had never called upon to do anything before and I put that Rolladex to work and launched the show in the fall of October 2024 and since we've done, you know, over a hundred something episodes, all kinds of interviews with all kinds of people, all kinds of what I call monologues of me expounding on different topics, playing with all kinds of different formats and we've grown to be the number one ranked Jewish categorized pod in the world. I think that's amazing and I think that something very similar happened with us following October 7th, like we've always obviously identified and connected with our Jewish identity. And for the two of us, we're Midwest moms of a certain age with, you know, kids that are going out into the world at a kind of a scary time and that only enhanced after October 7th. And so I think we had always entertained the idea of doing, oh, we talk about all this, we should just do a podcast and then I think that we really were spurred on much like you were saying to do something to just have a voice and put our voice out there. We don't know how many people listen, but at least it's something we can do to address what is concerning us. And you talked about your monologues and that they often hit on, well, they often hit on something that we've been thinking about and something that we didn't realize that we needed to hear. So how do you choose your subjects? Well, in a lot of ways, they choose me, you know, as any time inspiration sort of strikes, something that I start to go down in my head of like something I care about or have been thinking about, I'll jot a note down. And then when it's time to write, well, let me say, first of all, I've written now at this point about 80 monologues. So when I first started, I had a backlog of like ideas and things I wanted to talk about. Now they're, they're a little bit harder to come by, right? Because I've said, I've said a lot on a lot of different things. So you know what, it will generally happen now is I'll have some ideas for my little note file and I'll start going down a path and usually the first two will be the wrong path and I'll waste several hours on the wrong ideas. And then sometime within the next 24 hours, the right idea will hit me and all of a sudden will come pouring out. And then it requires shaping, but that's sort of, it just sort of springs from somewhere based on what feels urgent to me in that moment. Sometimes they're based around or pulled a little bit from current events. But I try to stay away from those just because then they're not as evergreen of content. And I like, I like people to be able to visit this stuff at any point, but it's just sort of whatever, whatever I'm experiencing or whatever I'm feeling is what I feel passionate enough about to write. And so I say it sort of chooses me because when I know it's right, it comes, it comes pouring out. I think we kind of follow in that same process. Don't you think like we often will, we'll have an idea, we'll have a path that we want to follow. And then something will come up either in the news cycle or something we've read. And this sends us like wanting to talk about certain subjects. One of us gets super angry about something. And usually it happens in the middle of the night, which means I'm sleepless and sure there's something I have to say. And the words don't come until sunlight, but that happens. But that needing to, and I agree about keeping everything evergreen so that it's something that people can, can address and go back to look at no matter what. I have a question about your monologues because I think about them again and again. Have you thought about collecting them and publishing them as a book? I have. I took it to an agent who did not feel confident that a book of essays was a viable piece in the marketplace. So I am thinking about if there are other ways to use that material or to just do it anyway. We'll see. Yeah. I would enjoy a musical. The monologue musical. That's a great idea. That would be a more digestible way to talk about Miss Rachel's anti-semitism. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of a digestible way to talk about anti-semitism and to put ourselves out there, which is what Melissa and I are trying to do, is your discussion of going full on you. It is a great suggestion. And sometimes I'm thinking, and what does that mean for me today? How did you get to this term and how do you see it? So just to, I say it as goal fold you. Go fold you. Yeah. That's okay. I don't know how I landed on exactly that terminology, but I know, you know, I recognized in myself these moments and I recognize it in other people where there is sort of this on. unchallenged or unexamined hesitation to lean into certain things that feel by default reaction to Jewie. That's too Jewie. What does that mean? What does that actually mean? It means that's too maybe lame, that's too othery, and it's going to make me seem weird, that's too religious, that's too traditional, whatever it might be. We all as assimilated Jews in the West like have this voice in there that's shutting these things down a lot, and I recognize that, and I want to encourage people to notice it and push against it, and it can look a hundred different ways. I mean the examples I'll give commonly that have been some of mine is, for example, I like doing the long kittish on Shabbat instead of the short kittish, and that was one of my gofold Jew things. I'm sort of demanding now when we do Shabbat, even if the kids are yelling, even if my wife wants to hurry along, I'm like, no, I want to do the long shabbat, the long kittish. Shabbat is about slowing down and taking time. It's like part of the whole thing. I don't want to rush it. I like doing it. That's one, you know, listening to Israeli music in the car. That's one. I'm making sure my kids like love to dance to and know Israeli songs. For me, it's like last year was learning about Shavu Oat, which is a holiday that I sort of knew a little about but had never really celebrated or done much with. So I made took the steps of actually learning about it, talking about it on my show, and then actually recognizing it in some way in my home. I went to a Simhattora celebration in my community this past year for the first time in a really long time, and it all feels really good. And, you know, it doesn't have to feel strange or too religious or any of that stuff. It just feels good to engage more deeply with this, you know, beautiful tribe that we have that we have sort of, again, unchallenged, been conditioned to sometimes keep it a distance to certainly not to our own benefit. Right. We actually had a very similar conversation on the podcast that just came out recently with Sarah Horowitz about this very topic about diving into this breath of historical and just Jewish knowledge that we have and really exploring it. Whereas a lot of times we kind of push it aside for convenient sake and for modern, modern times. And you've talked about the confidence that comes from knowing Jewish history and culture and wisdom. And how do you see like summer camps and day schools or religious schools becoming involved in gaining that knowledge? Yeah. I mean, they are pivotal. Look, they're not everything. We can't outsource all of our Jewish identity to third parties. You know, the most important place to form Jewish identity is in the home and making sure that as parents, we are really embodying and what we think Jewish identity should look like for our kids. If we just sort of show them, it's not important to us, but they have to go to school, you know, that doesn't work. That being said, you gain so much through Jewish day camp or, you know, high school programming or day school, sleep away camp, all that stuff. It's a chance to be immersed. I mean, camp certainly more so even than the day school. It's a chance to build a foundation of literacy and familiarity. It's a chance to spend formative years of your life amongst your own people. You're certainly going to spend the bulk of your life and experience out and about in the world doing whatever it is you do with whoever it is you do with. It's okay to spend a little bit of time in your formative years when you're really building who you are and your friends around you are influencing your growth being in a place that is Jewish and built around Jewish values and the other families and kids ostensibly share those values and goals for their family and just really feeling held by that. And then, of course, again, like the literacy piece, learning the Hebrew alphabet and the holidays and the liturgy and the history, all of that stuff. I mean, you can't beat it. And I would say, you know, as somebody who now is somewhat of a professional Jew, obviously, I've studied a whole lot more on my own than I ever did in elementary school or at summer camp. But that foundation and that basic level of knowledge that the 101 that you get from being in those spaces on top of the relationships are just so identity building and confidence building and really set that foundation. I agree with that. So not everybody has the chance to go to summer camp. And I'm glad that our daughters got to go because we live in a very small Jewish community and it gives them a sense of self and a way to work through the world and know who they are when they're asked questions. But a lot of adults come to Judaism really later and they need those skills as well. How do you suggest they get it in their 20s, 30s, 40s when they might not even have the words or the ideas to enter? I mean, at that point, it's basically like anything else, right? I mean, you have to dive into stuff. You have to find, you have to seek out programming. It depends what you want to learn and like what you're interested in. You need to find a community. I would say this the same way as if I was telling a college kid like how to break into entertainment. It's like you need to plant roots somewhere. You need to pick a community. You can shop around, but like find a synagogue or a JCC or some sort of Jewish communal space where a federation, whatever it might be to plant some roots and start building there, start learning there. There are all kinds of programs out there for every level of interest. If you're interested in the religious piece, show up at a synagogue. They have a million classes and opportunities. If you're interested in the cultural piece, federation is always a great sort of first step because they support all the other organizations and programs who are doing things. And they have a deep directory of different things for you to jump into. Through your family is a great way. I mean, if you are a parent of kids, finding the Jewish programming around the kids where then you can meet other parents who are in the same stage of life as you. And then there's always, you know, the classes like the Intro to Judaism program at the American Jewish University of which I'm on the advisory board, which is the most popular, most successful Intro to Judaism course of its kind that you can take online from anywhere in the world. I mean, there are cohorts in Korea and Mexico and it's really cool. And that's just like a really great, deeper crash course in the basics of it's a Judaism 101 for adults. And then you can go from there. Maybe you want to go to birthright, which they keep sort of extending that age later and later and later and having opportunities to do volunteer trips through birthright and federation partners. There is so much out there on offer. And I hear a lot of the time from folks who'd be like, I don't know what to do, like there's nothing to do. And I'm like, have you spent an hour just searching for what there is to do? There is so much stuff. There are there's a don't Jewish summer camp. I mean, there's like there's multiple organizations, including one called tribal gatherings, which is a popular one, that literally is like four people in their 20s and 30s to have a sleep away camp experience for a weekend, like in a fun adult way, but to have that camaraderie and that immersion and to, you know, step out of your life for a minute. There's just there are so many different kinds of opportunities. It really is whatever you put in is what is what you'll get out, but there's there's so much there. So I want to ask you when you're talking about community and finding Jewish communal spaces. This is my big hairy question. My dad and I went out to lunch the other day and he had come to see my daughter song lead at our congregation, which is very small. And I thought it was a lovely gatherings, but he asked me why so few people showed up and I told him, you know, hey, 25 is a big number for us. We're tiny and it's August and we're happy for what we can get. And he asked me, what can we do to get more people into these communal spaces? How do we get Jews to show up to synagogue? Do you have an idea? Yeah. So there's a couple of ways to sort of attack that question. One is we have to realize that if you're a synagogue and you're trying to bring people to your programming, you're not competing with other synagogue programming. You're competing with the concerts that are coming through town and Coachella and the movies and, you know, going out to dinner. Like that's what you're competing with. So you need to be offering people what they desire. We always hear this phrase meet people where they are, right? I don't think a lot of organizations live by that practice enough. You need to find draws to bring people in, whether it's speakers or programs or trips or just get creative, but, you know, think about who you want to bring in, be intentional and make cool stuff that they're going to want to be a part of. That's A, I think B is like it or not. Obviously, you know, religious and synagogue life, not just for Jews, but for other religions is also declining. People are more disconnected generally than they've been before we can watch every and talk to everyone we want to without having to leave our couch. So it's important to create community also outside of the synagogue. I'm sure you guys are finding you are creating community around your show. I've certainly found that my show has become a community for many people. And so I'm looking for ways to bring that into real life so that people can engage out on the ground, but a lot of people engage digitally and through the show. And so there, it doesn't always have to look like a synagogue or a JCC to count as Jewish community. So we also have to be creative in those ways. What are the other ways we can bring people together? And then the last thing I'll say is in terms of just pure synagogue offerings, again, it's we have to meet people where they are. So if you find that your synagogue, you know, the congregants are aging and you're not bringing in young people, then the leadership of that synagogue you have to go, well, what can we do with our services that's going to appeal more to young people? How can we bring in more music or bring in some, you know, visiting rabbi who's going to be interesting or how can we, you know, have a more robust social media presence so that people know that we even exist. Whatever it is, like it's going to take some effort and really trying to compete with the times and not just sort of be like, well, this is how we've done it. So hopefully they show up. - Right, right, I taught religious school and we competed with soccer practice and track practice and sleeping in after a fun night out. - And Hebrew school on a weekday when they had so many other activities to go to after school and Hebrew school was probably like the least one that they wanted to do. - So at the same time, I think that more than just going to synagogue to try to connect with your deity, for me, it is connecting with other people and that way potentially, God. So I think that I appreciate the idea of doing things virtually but you don't see how someone is standing up and if they might have a bad back and you don't see somebody crying in a seat, you know, two rows behind you and say, hey, do you need me to bring you soup? What's going on? And I think that's something that our entire society seems to need. 100%. There's, of course, so much great value in being together in real life. For some people, it's, it's frankly not an option, for instance, like I think about the, like the lone Jew and Iowa who doesn't have a synagogue for 50 miles. How do they find community as well? So yes, it's critical to be being in person. And certainly when I go to show like I'm looking forward to the people more so than I am to the praying, but yeah, it's all important. And you mentioned that we're kind of living through this loneliness crisis while people are simultaneously leaving organized religion. But Judaism has like rituals and wisdom around birth and death and grief and family and rest and gratitude and belonging. Are we doing a bad job of explaining what Jewish life actually has to offer? Yeah, we're doing a horrible job. I mean, I know you just said Sarah Hurwitson. She's like the poster child for this. Yes, great, but yeah, we do an absolute horrific job in a number of different ways. It's a tough situation, right? So the amount of Jews who are even qualified to speak on this is so limited. You know, the majority of American Jews in this day and age are unaffiliated religiously, right? These are people who are Jews by birth and maybe have some level of connection but do not have the knowledge to speak about this stuff. So already, it's a small pool of people to pull from. And then let's pull from those people. How many have the platform and the influence and the ability to teach others about this stuff? It's a tall order, but we certainly have to try. And people like Sarah Hurwits are doing that very literally with their books of, "Hey, here's all the stuff that Judaism has to offer." But yeah, I think we've done, we've sort of been far too insular in that regard for a long time and taken these things for granted. And again, it's the sort of unchallenged assumption thing. Like even within our own Jewish spaces, we're not examining enough what does Judaism have to offer. Are we teaching that to our kids even in the day schools, even in the camps? Are we just teaching them Russia, Shana, Hattikva, you know, Apples and Honey? Ra-ra-ra, are we teaching them the wisdom? Are we teaching them what we say about gratitude? Are we teaching them what we say about mindfulness? What we say about responsibility? What we say about our thought, our speech, our deeds? I mean, all of this stuff, it is a treasure trove and it's really important that we begin to make those changes at the religious school level, at the day school level. And again, it's like parents carry so much responsibility for this. If you're not going to teach it to your kids, then you need to get them in a space where they're going to learn this. Otherwise, you're really leaving it up to chance. And I think that's where you get a lot of these unaffiliated Jews from or where the parents sort of left it up to the kids to figure out. And, you know, they've got soccer practice. So you had discussed in one of your monologues about considering proselytizing. And I have some friends that are Christian missionaries. And the way they move through the world is significantly different than the way I do. And, you know, I tell people, hey, you're more than welcome to try it, but maybe it's not something you'd like. Because there's the idea that you say no three times. You said that's a bad idea. So can you give us a little bit more explanation about your perspective? Yeah. You know, I'm not suggesting that Jews should, you know, put on name tags and go door to door and say, would you like to become a Jew today? But what I am saying is I think right now the switch is flipped all the way in the other direction of like we have a closed sign on the door. And I think we need to flip that sign to open. We need to open the door and we need to stand out front of the door and say, hey, there's something really awesome in here that could be of unbelievable value to you. I think there's this like, this weird, I mean, and anytime I talk about this, certainly from like the more religious folks, I get a lot of flak of like we don't need to go around trying to like prove how great we are to people. And to me, that sort of like misses the point. To me, it's we talk about how amazing Judaism is and how much Jews love being Jewish. Like why wouldn't we want to share that gift with other people in a more proactive way? That's really, I think, what it is. It's like, I don't think we give folks enough of an opportunity to learn and engage and see if this might be for them. And again, I'm, and I, this, I get misunderstood on this, like I'm not suggesting that it should be like, do you believe in Hashem? Okay, great. You're in. Right. It's not that it's, you still got to go through the entire lengthy process and prove your commitment and, and do what needs to be done to become a member of the tribe. But I think, especially now, but really always, but especially today when our numbers are dwindling and we have seemingly less friends than we've had, keeping the, the door shut and dismissing those around us as, as being potential future tribates is, is really a travesty. It's just we, it's such a beautiful religion and, and, and nation that has so much to offer. And the people who do end up converting are often some of our most devoted and dedicated members. I just don't know why we aren't opening the door with a smile a little bit more instead of keeping it closed and saying, you know, this ain't for you. I, I understand. And I kind of, I agree because we talk about radical hospitality in, in Judaism and welcoming everybody in, but that seemed to only be for other Jews, however, the Jews by choice in my congregation are a joy and very, and we interviewed some, and they're very, very active. But the other thing is I'm taking Hebrew and the my other two classmates are Jews by choice because they have a lot more skin in the game, it seems, that they've decided to make this decision. I, I like the idea of, you know, welcome, the water is warm, we'd like to show you how it's nice to be Jewish and yeah, and I think it's important to recognize that it's a subtle difference, but it's not like, oh, like please be a Jew, it's, you are looking for something in your life, you are looking for meaning, you are looking for belonging, you are looking for purpose, I just so happen to be a part of this tribe that has all of these things in the most incredible way, I think you should explore this and maybe this is what you're looking for, that, that's what I feel like is missing, that it's something we don't, we like actively aren't trying to share with people in a way that's like we're hoarding it for ourselves, and I just think it's such a great thing that could be so helpful to so many, why wouldn't we give more people the opportunity to see if this might be for them? We often frame strengthening Jewish identity and welcoming interfaith families as competing goals. Do you think that enthusiastically welcoming those interfaith families can actually create more people who choose active Jewish lives? 100% and that's, you know, that is. evidence-based. I can't tell you how many Interfaith couples I speak to who feel that they've been sort of shunned by a Jewish community that they want to be engaged with or in the good scenarios like how robust their Jewish lives are because they've been embraced by their Jewish communities and are raising their children Jewish. I think the mistake we make and look of course the data is clear right that like more intermarriage leads to less kids being raised Jewish which leads to less Jews and there are plenty of interfaith families that intend to raise their kids Jewish and we're sort of throwing the baby out with the bath water. If the issue is Jewish continuity then the focus should be on well if you're raising your kids Jewish let's do this thing not up you married an on Jew that means the continuity is over. That's like that's not the step that that matters if you're talking about continuity. It's the children and how they're being raised that matters so like we have to have that conversation we have to say if you're if you actually want to be an engaged part of this community and carry on the Jewish lineage we have to be there for you. I mean we have to give you the opportunity to do that and include you and of course you know in an ideal world there's less intermarriage just because that's safeguards more of that continuity but it's not a zero-sum game and it's not an exclusive thing and it's not because you intermarried that's a guarantee of no Jewish kids. The only thing we're doing is guaranteeing it further by you know boxing these people out who want to be here and I see that over and over and over again and you know when we box them out we're also not giving an opportunity for the the non-Jewish spouses connection to Judaism to grow and who knows where that leads. I mean I think of I guess I had a my show Cindy Crawford who is not Jewish but who now like she's the one that learned about Sator and hosts it and makes brisket for the meal because she's like well if we're gonna do this thing like I want to understand it and I want it to have meaning and you know imagine if people were telling her she's not allowed to or that their family didn't count like that would be such a travesty so we we have to handle this more delicately and certainly more inclusively and and it can only lead to to good things I think so our congregation is actually known for our congregations welcoming to interfaith families our rabbi our this previous rabbi was one of the first to do interfaith marriages which really change the culture of the community what has become an issue though is that people still feel that the interfaith family won't be welcome how do we communicate with them hey we're called with you please come we we want to spend time with you and your entire family not just the Jewish members welcome that seems to be a hard message to get across well say more if if your synagogue has a rabbi doing interfaith marriages and you're unknown for having interfaith families what is it that's not been communicated when new members or when new Jews come to the city and they're still feeling boxed out they're having a hard time finding this congregation that's like hey we want you here or it seems like maybe the Jewish member will show up and the non-Jewish member feels like they won't like me there and I am known for being radically welcoming at times overwhelmingly friendly is what they say actually was awkwardly friendly that's what I am I'm awkwardly friendly and it still feels like how do we make it known that we it's not just we're cold at your interfaith we want to celebrate you exactly as you are and because it seems like the rest of the community is not necessarily doing it we get a bad name for it so I mean this sounds maybe sort of you know glib but the way to let people know is to let them know so whether that's through the marketing whether that's through programming that you put together that's specifically for these families you know if it's you just have to cater to the audience that you're trying to bring in so if you are trying to bring in we want interfaith families with their parents and their kids to come do a thing have an event at the synagogue this event is where interfaith families and we're going to you know hang up your old Christmas ornaments in arsoka that's not my idea I stole that from my rabbi friend rabbi Adam Greenwald but I like that one or whatever it is or we're going to get together around russia shana we're going to do a russia shana event where we're going to teach you all the rituals of russia shana we're going to do arts and crafts together and it's going to be super welcoming and a low bar and we want you to feel welcome and start the new year off as as a as a beloved member of this community I mean really the only way to communicate it is to communicate it you know let them know hey this is for you where we're doing stuff for you so please be here I want to see that soka it would be so sparkly right you know I came up because a lot of people who convert like they have these heirlooms these you know emotional attached objects that they don't want to like throw away but they don't have a Christmas tree anymore and so my my rabbi friend was like you can hang him from the from the soka like we're already hanging things from the soka hang your ornaments and how you feel like you're participating and there's a piece of you in there and it's still a soka and you're still celebrating soko wow I think that's a great idea and it repurposes something that has meaning for them so yeah yeah that's great okay so switching years a little bit israel is obviously a very present entity that kind of looms over us these days and I know we've discussed at length our feelings and our support for the state of israel and sometimes we say we feel like we're screaming into a void like no one is listening and so our question to you is at what point does legitimate concern about israel and politics or human rights become an unhealthy fixation on Jews I mean we're way past that point it would be completely disingenuous to say that the public discourse around israel right now is focused on quote-unquote legitimate criticism of israeli policies that ship sailed along years ago it is a complete obsession the phrase that I have heard used you know the anti-zionist gaze it is so firmly fixated on israel in just them the craziest ways that it is never fixated upon anyone else or anywhere else and any kind of circumstance just the fact I mean the news coverage alone is insane the date is crazy I don't have the numbers in front of me I've done them before on a monologue but like there are so many more people at for example associated press who cover israel than like the continent of Asia and like there are so many more articles written about Gaza than there are about every other conflict in the world combined this is not just happening by magic I mean this is it's a very real thing that there is this crazy obsession around Jews in israel to to turn them into the escape goat for all of our sins and problems and our lives are just you know a lot easier when I can blame them all on on the do I don't have to fix anything if it's the Jews fault that's like they're what's wrong and if I could just get rid of them everything would be right and I know like this is something I'm guilty of like I will start browsing online and I will find all that that the hateful comments on social media and then it just sends me on this spiral and I cannot pull myself off because I just feel like I want to go in there and I want to just fight every single comment and say do your research learn some history like I'm I'm the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors and I really worry about the narrative of the Jewish people in the world today and so what I struggle with is how do we spend too much energy trying to disprove these arguments made by people who were never really interested in being persuaded they're just out there in their echo chamber you know stating what they're stating how do we fight that you know it's a loaded question right it's a tall order there's a lot of different things we have to do I think number one is at least for me and for most people who I've spoken to in this space you're right that like and certainly with my material my my audience in mind is never the far end of the spectrum you know I hate Jews Jews control the world we need to get rid of all the Jews I'm not worrying about that person who I'm worried about and who I think we should be mostly focused on is the middle the people who are in doubt the people who are through no fault of their own being inundated everywhere they turn with Israel bad Israel bad Jews bad Israel bad and who don't know enough to know what's going on who don't know how to recognize a propaganda campaign when they're being you know enveloped in one those are the people we need to reach those are the people where clarity can matter and does matter where facts can reach these people I think also we often are we're getting bogged down in sort of the wrong kinds of arguments where we're fighting here's this historical fact here's that historical fact here's this number here's that number what we really need to teach people sort of more so than anything is is what hate against Jews looks like what constitutes hate against Jews how it appears what is allowed and what is not allowed A great recent example is this whole bolagon with macklemore. You know, I think part of the issue is that the majority of planet earth does not recognize What maccomore is doing or saying how it is harmful to Jews They say it's just a guy saying free Palestine don't kill kids. Why do the Jews have a problem with that? They must love killing kids because we have not Taught the public or even members of our own Jewish community How anti-zionism functions and what is wrong about it? What is harmful about it? And once you can understand those patterns Then you don't get taken in by the BS, but until we teach this pattern recognition widely We're going to be in trouble and and you don't need to be a historical or political expert To recognize the patterns of Jew hate or the patterns of propaganda like those are very simple They apply broadly they apply throughout history They've applied in other situations to other groups like these are our patterns. We can recognize And we just need to give people that education and that language and unfortunately we're not seeing A ton of that we don't have a lot of loud informed Advocates they're they're very few and far between and unfortunately our sort of larger Jewish institutions and organizations continue to be a bit slow On I think this specific kind of education in this sort of targeted way You deliberately use the term Jew hate rather than anti-Semitism Can you explain why? A couple of reasons one is I think there's an important distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism they are both Types of Jew hate and they function very differently and they're very parallel But their their language is very different and how they present themselves is very different And so again, I think a lot of the trouble we get into is when we call everything anti-Semitism But it's actually anti-Zionism and we haven't taught people to recognize anti-Zionism only anti-Semitism So they look at a Malcolm War and they go well, that's not anti-Semitic So you're you must be full of crap So that's one big reason and then the second is Jew hate is clear Then it doesn't matter if I'm talking about anti-Zionism or anti-Semitism or anti-you know Judaism as a religion whatever It's hate against Jews. It's Jew hate. It's bigotry. I use that word a lot That's clear if you're engaging in bigotry you're engaging in bigotry no matter what sort of umbrella we want to put it under Since you started the podcast and have gone full Jew or recommended other people go full Jew Have you been experiencing Jew hate online and in person? Yeah, all day every day. It's crazy, you know I went from being somebody who never saw or felt personal bigotry in my life to seeing it Certainly in the media and on social media, you know, all day every day very crazy experience It's unfortunate. It's not fun. I wouldn't say that it you know deeply wounds me personally I have very thick skin. I already have thick skin. You have to have thick skin if you're gonna work in entertainment If you're going to audition for stuff or work in a writer's room. So I was I was well built for this But I'm also having to continually thicken it and try to look at things from an educational perspective and looking at opportunities for Where can I call people out and teach them that what they're doing is wrong? Where can I set an example for other people where can I Report and block, you know, truly bad actors What can I glean from this of like sort of where are the gaps in understanding? What's actually going on based on what people are saying? So it's you know, again, it's it's not fun It's kind of an occupational hazard and I'm I'm happy to say, you know, I haven't received anything So traumatizing or terrifying that it's affected my ability to do the work But you know, Melissa's you were saying like I I Watch my social media time very carefully because the more time I spend on there the more that I feel So it's very important to to limit that exposure Get in and get out do what you want to do make sure you've got good stuff in your feed, right? So like if you're only engaging with Stuff about anti-Semitism the only stuff you're going to see is stuff about anti-Semitism So make sure you're liking and clicking and commenting on on whatever other sort of lovely things you enjoy So that they keep showing up in your algorithm That's really actually very important I mean for me like it's music it's beatboxing. It's certain comedy videos. So like I get it I still a really good dose of a lot of that stuff But even then you know and as I say to people many times like Don't go in the comments just you know what's waiting there That's where you can wallow for sure It's really depressing in there. It is really hateful The comments are a really nasty place I only really go into the comments to to leave comments to try to call people out and to educate and make sure that They realize you know There is even if it doesn't really affect them somebody's noticing what you're doing And I'm going to call you a racist and I'm going to call you out for it Well, I think we also wrestled with whether becoming publicly Jewish Through the podcast like would make our families left safe Obviously we don't have the platform that you have and we are in a much smaller community But it is something that crossed our minds by putting ourselves out there like this And and so I'm so glad to hear that you have not experienced yourself any like Threat or anything that that has made you feel unsafe Just how do you protect your family without allowing fear to take hold with all this You know, we're just it's just not sort of the kind of people my wife and I are where we don't live this fearful people We're pretty, you know I'm careful I don't know how careful I actually need to be but I am careful You know, I don't really post my children anymore as before the podcast I would post them now. I don't I only put them in stories to close friends Which is sort of a shame right? It's like I wish I could feel free to put all parts of my life and family up there But I just I don't I will withhold from posting stuff if I'm on the road or if I'm in a certain place until after I'm already gone Just a little precautions like that, you know, I I have set up alerts So that if my personal information sort of becomes anywhere online I can I can have Google remove it stuff like that. So I'm you know, I'm smart about it I'm like bladda bladda how to lunch but I I don't let it consume me or stop me from doing what I want to do And um nor will I and unless there's ever a real reason to feel that way I'm not going to manufacture one in my head sure You've posted online that some celebrities that you'd like to have on the podcast won't come on because they're worried about their image careers or security If people with that kind of platform and resources are afraid What does it say about our place in America right now? I mean it's it's not good Uh, I think it's really sad that there are very large successful people Who feel so afraid of the vitriol that they see out there that they don't feel comfortable publicly speaking about their identities We would find this very sad and abhorrent for any other Minority group to experience this the closest comparison honestly is you know the gay community and being in the closet It really feels like a lot of Jewish celebrities They just they don't want they don't want to deal with the heat and like the sad part is for most of them There will be some kind of heat generally that heat is you know strangers on the internet saying mean things in your comments So like if you just don't go on an Instagram you won't feel that heat at all But it does exist and some people would just rather not have the headache and rather not feel that negativity Not have to wade through that gauntlet in order to say something so they're opting out and it's just a shame That they have been so sort of cout into that position It's a shame that our society has allowed itself to get to that place where they are literally you know scaring Jews into hiding It's um, it's a tough spot. We're in but all the more reason why shows like this are important It it makes us civilians not celebrities wonder how we're supposed to move through the world Sometimes I wonder whether the person next to me in the grocery store knows I'm a Jewish mom You know and people have like pegged me and said oh yeah, you're Jewish which is scary How are we supposed to handle this without More resources Handle which thing handle the fear hmm well, you know in many ways I think You know, we don't share the same fears that these big celebrities do they're afraid that they have this you know Large thing that they're gonna lose the rest of us don't have that Large image or thing to protect or just people I can only speak for my own experience But you know I I wear my my again Davide everywhere and I want people to know that I'm a Jew and that They're in the checkout line with a Jewish person And that there are Jews in their community and there are Jews that they need to live with and I have only had Thank God to this point positive interactions because of this whether that's from another Jew saying I love your necklace Or like thanks to wearing that necklace or a non Jew saying what a beautiful necklace or what's that or You know, being curious I can think of 10 in a row. interactions that have been positive around this necklace in the last year. So I think if folks could push past that fear and again, look, you need to be smart, right? If you are in a dangerous neighborhood, in a dangerous time of day by yourself, you don't need to go, you know, sing in Hebrew, wearing a giant star of David around, don't be stupid about it. But we need to be able to go to the grocery store and have people know that we're juice, right? Like we have to. And if we don't, we are, we are letting hate win. I mean, we are letting it take up the space that we're supposed to be in. So we need to push back against that and, and normalize juice taking up space in the public sphere and, and making sure that people take us into account. I mean, whether they like us or not, they can't say anything right now because I'm here. I'm in the room. So if you want to say something, you better go home and say it because I'm here right now. That's actually why I wear my star a lot you and I started wearing it. This was, I got this when I was in college and it was in my joy box for ages. And then I just have started wearing it every single day and going out there with it. How does it feel? It feels good. There was a moment recently where, again, I had gone online and I had seen, I followed this, this post about an American Israeli who had gone to get, I think her brows done and was talking to the woman who owned the store and when she found out that she was Israeli American, she basically kicked her out and she didn't refund her deposit. And I, that, I don't know why that got to me as much as it did because I see so many of these posts. And then later that afternoon, my husband and I went to a bookstore and there was this beautiful book, a picture book on the shelf of Israel. It was a photo book of Israel and I wanted to get it and I, something helped me back from picking it up and like thinking, what are people going to say if I take it up to the counter, if I want to purchase this book and I just wasn't prepared in that moment to have that discussion. I think that's where I struggle because I don't do well with confrontation and I, but I want so much to share and be proud and put out there that, yes, I'm Jewish. And like you were saying, we're here, we're here and we're in your communities. And I think we're trying through this podcast to show that we are a very loving and joyful part of the community as well. I think that's what the message we try and put out. You got to go back and buy that book. I, I think I'm going to, I know it's been, I will, that could be a field trip. That's it. We should go do that after this. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be great. But yeah, and we, we also, you know, want to teach our children like you were saying because we have, we have both of us daughters in their 20s. And so they're now out navigating this world and, you know, we want to teach them to take security seriously without teaching them that being visibly Jewish is inherently dangerous. I mean, it's one thing for me to talk about my own safety, but when I'm thinking about my children, it's something completely different. So how do, how do we balance that? How do we tell them be proud of your Jewish identity, but also be aware and without scaring them? I think that's my thing. Yeah. I mean, think in moments like that, I think about the black community, right? Like they have to have conversations with their kids very early on about what to expect out in the world. And they don't get to tuck away their blackness if they're afraid. Like they are who they are as they move around the world. They don't have the option to go into the closet and they navigate the world just fine, right? And they make it work and they're proud of who they are. And they just have to deal with the realities and you have to teach your kids. You know, it's, it's a conversation no parent wants to have with their kid. And you have to think about how and when and how to introduce these ideas and, but you need to teach them safety the same way you need to teach them. You know, there are tricky people out there who want to kidnap you and do stuff to you. If to teach your kids about that, you got to teach them about this. Let's say if what's not, there's a world out there of people who, who pay us. And here's how you need to navigate, but you can't, you cannot let that for one second make you afraid of who you are or not proud of who you are. It's both. So you know, if they can do it and they can never hide, we can certainly do it when we can just tuck a necklace in. Sure. Yeah. And I think we've done a pretty decent job with our girls, don't you? I mean, well yours is a powerhouse, like she's minus pierced. So I think, I think their, the kids are okay as they say, you know? Good. Yeah. So your work has for sure changed us, inspired us and made us braver of all the people that you've interviewed and ideas you've explored. What has changed your mind about something? I wouldn't say that, you know, any conversation has, quote, changed my mind to where like, I thought something was green and all of a sudden I'd think it's blue, but I've definitely been given from a lot of my guests, you know, new framings or ways I hadn't thought of thinking about something before. I'll give you a recent one. I had Scooter Braun on and we were talking about how he also prefers calling anti-semitism racism using that word. And his framing was that many other groups experience racism. So by calling it racism, you're creating a sort of solidarity with other groups who can relate to that experience in that way. And I just hadn't thought about it in those terms before. I'd thought about it in terms of what people know what racism is. They can recognize that, make them point it out and they go, that's racist. They don't necessarily know that's anti-semitic, but I haven't thought about his framing. So now go, cool. I just learned a new, new framing for this. All kinds of new framings from some of my, like, great teachers on the show have been Dr. Anat Wilff. I learned a lot from our conversation, Dara Horn. I've had on twice, learned a lot from her. I've had Sarah Herwoods on twice, love her framing. Van Jones is someone I always learned from every time I speak to him. I'm learning new things. He, again, like, didn't change my mind, but he's really given me a lot of perspective on how the black community sees the Jewish community, which a lot of Jews are sort of guessing at instead of, you know, having a black ally could say, hey, here's what we're thinking and seeing. So I've really appreciated the, the enlightenment that I, that I've gotten from him and continue to get from him. I learned a lot from all my guests about, you know, just through their experience, it brings things into clarity or reframes things or even, or reinforces my own thinking in so many ways. So it's really been, it's really been a very enriching experience in that regard. Has this work changed the way you see yourself fitting into the Jewish community? Yeah. I mean, of course, you know, three years ago I was an actor who used his platform to talk about Jewish issues and now I am a, you know, Jewish voice, an advocate, an educator who also enjoys acting when he gets the time, which has not been recently. So it's, it's very different, you know, I, my synagogue invited me to be interviewed in lieu of the sermon on second day of Rosh Hashanah. They weren't going to do that three years ago to ask me about, you know, the Hanukkah movie I was in, menorah in the middle, by the way, which was a fun one. But you know, it's, it's very different, you know, I have people who have made me feel like, I, you know, I'm an educator and or a resource or someone who, a motivator. And so those things are all very different than I was just a couple years ago. When you look ahead five or 10 years, what worries you the most about Jewish life and what gives you hope? That's a good question. I'm, I'm really not a worrier, honestly. Like I don't really spend very much mental energy if at all worrying. I would rather sort of recognize problems and work towards them. And then when there's something like we can handle hard things, we can handle challenges. And I feel like when a challenge arises, I will meet it. So I don't really need to worry about what might happen. When it gets here, I'll deal with it. In terms of what gives me hope, honestly, a lot gives me hope. The fact that there are people like you and me all over the place who are going full Jew and are using their passion and skills for the benefit of the Jewish people. I just see it in infinite ways. It's happening so much everywhere. That gives me a lot of hope. I continue to hope and believe that we are at, you know, the beginning of a new chapter. And even as the hate seems to get worse, the strength of the Jewish community continues to grow and the urgency and the innovation and the reckoning of what hasn't been working and what needs to work and the work that needs to be done. That's all happening right now. For young leaders, give me a lot of hope, high school kids, middle school kids, college kids who are being born into this reality. There's no before times for them that they that are still holding onto or needing to reprogram from. This is what they know and they are being battle tested in real time in all of the places that they go on the front lines every day at school and online. And they are coming out of it, the ones who are coming out with a strong sense of Jewish identity are coming out with iron clad sense of Jewish identity and really are being seasoned in how to navigate this new normal. So that by the time, I mean, they're already leading in so many ways, but you look 10, 20, 30 years from now, our Jewish leaders. leaders are going to be people who have been doing this work since they were teenagers in a very immersive and deep way. So they give me a lot of hope that we're going to have some grizzled vets as leaders down the line. It's nice to think of our kids as grizzled vets at 20. Thank you. This has been an amazing experience. And I do agree that it seems as if the growth in the Jewish community, they've been supportive to us. We feel like we have more allies in our community and outside of the community since we started the podcast. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And we appreciate the time and the attention and the wonderful answers you've given us. Do you have any marching orders for two middle age moms in the basement with microphones? I mean, you're already doing it. This is it. This is the model. Daniela is take your skill set, take what you're passionate about and do something with it for the benefit of the Jewish people. This is the moment, everyone bears responsibility. You know, if you're waiting for something, God only knows what you're waiting for. Like how bad does it have to get for you to realize we need you? And then it doesn't necessarily mean, in fact, it certainly doesn't mean you got to start a podcast, right? Like that is just one avenue of an infinite number of avenues. We need help in a million directions. It is just about finding your lane that is specific to you. It can be as simple as bringing lockers to the break room at your office on Hanukkah so that you can explain to people what lockers are and what Hanukkah is. I got a great comment from a listener who was like, when I used to miss work for Jewish holidays, I said I was just taking a day out. Now I say I'm taking a day out for the Jewish holidays. You know, it can be stuff like that. We just have to continue to teach people who we are and take up that space and use the skills and passion we have for the benefit of our community because if not you, then who? Absolutely. We are here. Mishbhaha, we got to take up space. Yes. Let's do it joyfully and bring some food. Jonah, thank you so much for joining us. This was a true pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely. Lovely to speak with you both. Thank you. Thank you. Kibitson, Mishbhaha. Kibitson. The Kibits is part of Jew Folk Podcast, a product of Jew Folk Inc. For more information, go to jufolk.com/podcast. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. www.jufolk.com