Going freelance or fractional: what to know about clients, rates and contracts

Second, let's get going, introducing our incredible speakers for today. Today we have three human beings who interact with the market to meet in various forms over the years, but also are just united by being completely blown in wonderful and as I say, bringing the trouble today but in such a lovely way. We have Ayo who is a strategic marketing consultant in the built environment space and honestly one of my favourite people to bump into whenever I do at TMM in person in London just brings all the right energy, is all so supportive, kind, thoughtful and I think is it's such a great addition to this conversation. Next we've got Luan who is an experienced consultant, author, PhD student, entrepreneur, extraordinary, just like the most incredible person who brings both smarts and competence and experience to this conversation. A completely wonderful addition to the chat. We've got Steve who is like freelance royalty. If we have a conversation about when to go into freelance world or the frictional world or something like that, if you don't have Steve as part of the conversation then you're not having the conversation. It's an absolute delight to have him involved to two. Today we're going to be covering off the topic of freelance and frictional life and what folks wish they would have known before taking that leap and that comes in a few forms. Whether that's someone we're thinking about today who might be thinking about taking the leap, someone who has already done so or indeed someone who unfortunately lets face the realities of the industry right now is having that that forced upon them. Then these are the people that we're speaking to today and we hope by the end of this hour then you're really informed and there are a lot more than you did before. Before we get started I just want to say a quick thank you to our sponsors. This week's featured sponsor is a company called Prismic. Now the thing you need to know about Prismic is right now they're investing in the community. They've got a small team working on some free GEO audits for folks in the community. If you would like an audit of your GEO presence, so how you show up in LLMs like chat GPT, Claude etc. then we've got a link right there that will also pop in the chat so you can get that free GEO audit. Also a big big thank you to our other sponsors. We have Canva, Wistier, MailChimp, Frontify, Planable and Cambridge Marting College. They're all wonderful people and wonderful brands that if we didn't have them as part of the community then we won't be able to bring these sessions to you. Thank you Rebecca for saying introducing them first on their qualities rather than their accolades. That's because these three humans are absolutely incredible. If you've missed it by the way, if you're in the chat feature and you haven't popped your favourite snack, please do because that felt very very important in the 15 minutes that we had losing up to this chat. Luan is bringing the draw. Right. So I think the first question should be what you call yourself when it comes to freelance, fractional, consultant, that kind of world of things and why you decided to go to that approach. Thank you for having us all here and we apologise in advance. But Jo asks us how we kept going and our first answer was kind of sugar and snacks. So hence the question. I've been doing this for 15 years now and I went for the title 15 years ago and I've kind of stuck with it of consultant. I always found that a little bit icky because for me consultant felt like grey suit, older person, a bit kind of stuffy and I didn't feel that I kind of fitted that role but consultant for me kind of felt felt that what I was doing and where I wanted to go and how I wanted to be perceived and I think in terms of this question not to still from the other speakers but it's really about how you want to be perceived and positioned in your role and the work that you're going to be doing. But I'll just say on the topic of fractional, I don't think that word existed 15 years ago when I started and we'll get into this but it's kind of it feels like it's quite a new term because that's as marked as what we like to do. So I started with consultant and I've stuck for there. Nice, I love that and I'd love to ask follow up questions on that as well because like I think there is nuance in these respective titles and stuff like the fractional as well as well as it's new as you say. How about you, what did you go for and why? I actually started off with a built environment marketing consultant and the reason I did that was because I wanted to kind of differentiate myself and say look these are the people I work with but I also built environment is like basically architects engineers construction firms and then obviously the marketing consultant for what I did and I went for consultant because I work B2B. So for me it's about how you're perceived and freelance for some of B2B isn't necessarily the norm so that that was why I went for that but actually I dropped built environment probably towards the end of last year because I was doing the repositioning and I became a strategic marketing consultant because I was like actually I wanted to do more strategy work. So I actually moulded it as you need. So that's it and that may well change again as I love rebranding stuff. We all love rebranding things. rebranding yourself is fun right? It's a bust me all the day but I'm always doing I'm like how can I change this? My website and this. I love that so much. We've got Sarah and Maria already saying, her life has already made my day and you've heard divine. I don't think you've ever seen more comments about single thing than your bookcases. You're bringing a lot of joy to the community right now. Thank you. Look at that. That's ridiculous in the best way possible. Steve, how about you? I think I always went to it from a so I'm not a marketer. I create videos and podcasts for people and actually about 12 years ago when I went full time freelance. It was mainly video stuff. So I would say I was a freelance video producer, a freelance video editor, something like that. But that was more because I think that was the sort of thing that people might look for. So they were actually looking for freelance help, freelance podcast and it's probably still true today really even though I can be a producer or a consultant and do strategy. I actually like doing so I'm quite happy for another producer to hire me to edit their podcast. I just like the doing of it. So the word freelance still fits really nicely. But I've heard from doing the podcast, being freelance podcast that is for years, like so many variations on it and it doesn't matter if you change it. Like some people might say they're an independent whatever it is or some people might say, oh, I run a whatever business. And actually that was the more important thing for me was realizing that I'd become a business. My wife would say, oh, Steve, he started his own business introducing me to her family for the first time. And I'd be like, no, no, I've become a freelance editor. Like it didn't, I didn't appreciate that. But that's the really important bit. Whatever you call yourself, you have to realize what behind it you were business. I love that, Steve. Thank you so much for speaking to that because I think that's the point that's hit already. You know, so I really appreciate that. I'll throw out a question and this is terrible host etiquette, but I'm going to do it to all three of you at the same time and hopefully you don't speak the same language. Where do you think the choice of those titles has served you and where has it sort of let you down? Have there been any instances where you've kind of gone, oh, I wish, you know, this has actually been really great or I wish I would have done something different. You and you sort of did body language things so much. I did the body language thing because I think it's the, the, where did it Hindi is an interesting question. And I'll say, I don't think that that's an issue related to client work. I think it's more, I'd like to pick up on like the term freelance as like an industry perception. And I know, I know this is something you and I have talked about that kind of interesting perception and you've talked about it, Joe, in the prep around like your identity and job title and not having the job title at big brand. Yeah, sometimes feels like in certain situations can be a hindrance. And so, for example, when I might have a conversation like maybe a big conference or something and people go, where are you from? And you say freelance, it's kind of like, oh, versus like if you said a big brand, it will be different. Whereas you want to say, but I do work with these big brands. And I do work from, you know, multi-million turnover clients, but I think sometimes I like that that freelance or it's just me feels, you know, there's a bit of a negative perception around it. Yeah. Certainly. Certainly. Steve has the appointed king of freelancers as you are for the session. I mean, like based on what the lines just said, I mean, how do you sort of, yeah, but you know, like, what's your experience in that? I think it can be tricky, which is a shame because I've like started a thing called being freelance, which kind of bulzes it all up really if I, if I denounce it. But I think it's actually how you then, well, there's two things. I think it's how you then portray yourself. So you could be a number of liable free. freelancer and sort of drift in and out and you'll be that or you can be utterly professional consultant freelance, which I'm sure everybody here is. But I think this, what are people looking for? Literally, what might they be googling for? And for me, there might be googling freelance podcast editor. So I think that does matter. What your potential clients are going to be looking for and how they feel about it. There's no certainly definitely no shame in being freelance, even though some people think like the freelance gig sites, like Fiverr and Upwork have kind of like bought the tone down. There's still very good opportunities available on them, just the same as those rubbery opportunities and good opportunities in the real world. Absolutely. I think that's, you know, marketing 101 as well, isn't it? You're orientating to the customer to a certain extent. So exactly as you describe if they're searching for freelance, if they're not searching for fractional podcast editor, then you can't put your items to sight for you. I love you so much, I love you. I'm just sliding too. It's amazing. Honestly, it's so wonderful. It's the best trait in the entire world. Let's follow up with UIO on a point which Luan raised just now as well around the identity thing going from a job title associated with a company to you out in the world. And I think Steve has made a really good point already that you are actually a business, which I think is a really strong point to remember. How is your transition from the role into this world of being? My transition was actually forced. I was made redundant at the end of 2019 from an EdTech company, actually. I had a marketing there. I was looking for jobs and didn't see anything that I actually wanted to do because I was like, you've got to manage a team, you've got to do all this stuff, and I love marketing. I love the craft of being close to it and the strategy and stuff. So for me, I kind of sat there and thought, I've generally addict myself. But I think what's interesting is when you start working for yourself because people do look at you differently because there are certain conferences and events where they'll only offer you a chance to speak if you are in house. There are certain people that go, oh, you know, they're so much better than you, but you're like, well, I work with all, you know, I work with like some of like five of the ten top engineering companies in this country, right? So they're building massive projects. That is what my CV is and I know these people, but then people often look at you and go, well, but you work on your own, you know, I'm not sure you can do this stuff, but actually I work across so many of my now to navigate them, what they do, how they do it, all of that stuff. And so it's about you kind of explaining and expressing what makes you stand out and selling that. And I think we've all got very good at that and so that people know what we're what we do and what we know for and what we can do as even as individuals. And I've actually started now for certain projects. I will go for bigger projects and I will build teams around it. So I'll find the best freelancers for all of the things and I will leave that project. So I can still, I can compete. I love that and could I pick up on that because as you were speaking there, like for me, like there was almost like you described the challenge, but then you you matched it to like the most incredible accomplishments. And like I felt like a, you know, for a bit of description, like a swelling sense of like, bloody hell, you're amazing, like truly and like the fact that you even have to sort of like go a step beyond, you know, just to justify a title or whatever it is, seems silly, but I'd like to ask a question on how you go about doing that. So if we acknowledge that we are recognising that there is a challenge to overcome in presenting us just yourself, how, how have you personally gone about sort of doing that? Um, do you know what I think it is? It's like any, I guess in a way, we are all a product, right? And we all have to market ourselves and have that messaging and be consistent and how do we want to position ourselves? So we are in fact a product and we are selling ourselves and our services, right? And I think that's how I tackle it. I, I see myself as my test bed. So my social media is me testing out stuff that I will do with clients, but also demonstrating what I can do. So that's how I see it and doing a podcast and appearing on things and speaking. That's all an extension of my brand. So I think that's what we all have to do. We all have to act as we are a product in our own way, right? Love that. Yeah, absolutely. It's the, the old couple of issues and those reason that folks don't do the marketing of themselves, but when you do, then it's, it's magic. And by the way, I just wanted to pick up, like I can see out my right eye, the chat feature ticking along with so many fantastic comments. So I just wanted to acknowledge that and sort of thank everyone in the chat for like adding your own contributions here, because that's so valuable as a track to this. So thank you so much for for doing that as well. Um, Luan, because you were the one who introduced that sort of thought around the transition. I was curious whether there was any part of the transition that didn't have to do with money or clients that you found particularly challenging that you overcame a later point. And mine was a different story of going into freelance in because actually it was something that evolved from my employed status at the time. So I was employed, things were changing within the organisation. So actually it was a meeting with my MD at the time and he suggested it with them being my first client, bald members being my second client. And so it was more of a, I literally had those conversations and we fleshed out what that would look like. I had a three month runway to think about it. Did I want to do it? How I was going to go about it and literally left the office one day as a full-time employee and started the next day with two full-time client contracts. So I was saying my transition one was great and you know a huge opportunity and and I got rid of all the things I didn't want to be doing. Like so all the things that as an in-house marketer that you shouldn't be doing but lands up on the market as desk, I didn't have to go into the office. I didn't have to sit in any internal meeting. So actually for me the transition was welcome and lovely because I had possibly more security than I had in the in-house role with the new contracts that I've negotiated. Familiarity with colleagues and the clients and the work that I was doing and really supportive clients and actually within that three month period I'd also secured another client before I started. But again a wonderful story if it's okay to share and take hope that other client was my boss from my placement year at university who I'd kept in contact with and you know this is what I'm up to this is what I'm doing. She'd been in a meeting and they'd said they were looking for a freelancer and she mentioned my name and he said oh didn't she work here during her part time studies when she was a student. So 15 years on they became like my first other client as a consultant so it was from that point on that I kind of identified like the power of your networks and just talking to people and telling them what you're doing and it was all about referral. So for me it was a lovely transition and really smooth but having a big learning curve you know I'm not going to say it's been shiny as Steve said like all the the business running stuff like dealing with accounts and new-gallon contracts and like that stuff isn't fun but the other stuff was being great. I love that and you know it's being mirrored in the comments here we've got spot on Luan you don't have to deal with time wasting internal politics and love that getting so much validation from from the chat. I was going to come to this later in the conversation but as you as you prompted it Luan I think one of the things that quite a lot of folks watching in today are probably quite interested in is finding those clients and and sort of you know how one goes about finding your first second third etc etc and I appreciate you know marketing tactics going to be different for every different person so we don't necessarily need a list of marketing tactics so much as like are there any principles or ideas that you've kind of hung on to when it comes to finding new clients and Steve I'd love to come to you first if possible I think your perspective is really interesting because you've got quite a tactical implementation of a thing and and so yeah I'd love to know how you go about finding clients or how they go about finding you. Well I do you're left in here free lunch to say but they they get their work by word of mouth and that is by far the most common way that you hear which can be frustrating because it's like well how do I get those mouths talking sort of like saying my name and I think the answer that is showing up in in all the ways you can think possible so that you're visible on top of mind when those mouths go to say a name they say yours but also I mean not quite like you know I'm where maybe you're literally working with your old boss straight away but all of those people that you've met in like those those that maybe you've worked with them maybe you've worked with them on a project Maybe you worked with them years ago, somehow finding a way to connect with those people is often how you can find your first clients, especially because people like to help people. They like to support you. Oh, you've gone freelance, that's amazing, brilliant. I know you should talk to this person, that kind of thing. So, and it's never been easier to be fair to stay in touch with those people, thanks to LinkedIn, so to reach out with them. And of course, the best thing you can do is like think about this before you go freelance. So before you find yourself in that position to have that strong network, so that it feels so natural for you to be talking to them in the first place. I love that. And it reminded me of an exercise that I did only last week. And so bearing in mind, I'm personally now six years into running TMM full-time. I did three and a half years in the evenings and weekends before. And I've been getting a bit of advice on sales stuff from an interim sales director recently. And what we did was pull a list of folks we've worked with in the past. I'm just going through that list. And he asked me to write some notes next to each of them about the nature of the relationship. But what quite naturally ended up happening was, I was like, oh, we could probably get in touch with that person again. And like, it wouldn't have been prompted if it wasn't for this exercise. And it was probably any 50 people on the list. But there was probably six, seven, eight conversations that prompted off the back of this conversation off this exercise. Where I was like, actually, there's a reasonable chance they need this thing. And we've already worked them. So we've got a relationship with them. And so that's sort of keeping in touch and just top of mind. If I can add one more thing to that, just a listening conversation in the first instance. So like, something that's been really powerful for us recently is like, rather than saying, hey, I've got a thing to sell you, it's like, hey, Luan, I've just gone freelance. I just love to know about a few of your challenges if possible. And I'm not going to say anything. But if I can match what I do to it, then I absolutely will. And that sort of worked. I'm shutting up now, because I'm supposed to be a host, not a contributor, but hopefully, like you thought. How about you when it comes to new clients? Because of course, you're in a niche as well, which is really interesting. Or you used to be in a niche. No, I am still in a niche. I just took a bit of environment where I don't know. That was all interesting. OK, well, that's good. So I mean, like-- So I think it's a smaller pool as well. Yeah, it's a smaller pool. And it just means that you can kind of go a bit more in-depth. So if I go out and about, so I'm based in London, but I kind of try and say, I'll do one in person, like once a week type thing. And I try and focus now on places where basically, the most people in the room are likely to know about the built environment. And are in that area. So I would rather do that than go to a local Chamber of Commerce event, for example, because I'm like, it's easy for me to walk into a room of 30 people who know what I work in rather than having to explain what the built environment is. So that's kind of what I do. So I try and kind of go to industry talks events. I rule low cost. And then I remember stuff like the institute directors and things like that. And then in terms of winning work, then I also do regular posts on LinkedIn. And also, including talking about my services, case studies, all that kind of stuff. And that often does prompt stuff and people to reach out and get in touch as well. So the face to face is definitely really important. I also have a podcast as well. So I get people on that. So it's a number of things, really. It's quite broad. I like marketing myself, basically. Well, no. I mean, we've got Louise in the chat zone. Aero is everywhere in built environment. She does a great job of marketing herself. Do you know that one of the things, sorry, that Aero does so well is positioning herself as an expert, but also somebody who's interested, I would say, in exploring and loving and celebrating the people in that industry and what they do. And that is one thing you can do, as well as reaching out to the people you already know, is starting to create content, even if it's blog posts or whatever, positioning yourself as an expert. So that, you know, all like Leigh-Wayne going out and speaking at events, for example, because of all the blog posts and ultimately books which is written. So that people see you as, oh, I want to work with them. That's the dream. Like people come to you without you even having to go to them because they see you as that person they want to work with. Yeah. Definitely. Thank you, Steve. And her personality, sorry. I'll bigger up a bit more, but her personality comes across in all of that as well. So you'll leave her be, well, most likely drawn to, but if you were like, oh, she's not my kind of person, then you wouldn't go to her. But more likely, you'll be like, she's lighting up the room. I want to work with her. So there's that as well. You're not that you have to be like extra hurt, but being able to put your knowledge and your personality out there and then people like connect with you before perhaps you're even spoken to them, that's awesome. Do you know what's really interesting? I actually won a project recently, and it was literally the person who recommended me for the project. We had an amazing day at a conference of like 18 months ago and just had a laugh. Like literally all day, we're just like, we're hanging out. And yeah, it turned into work. You know, 18 months down the line. So I think that whole being yourself and a personality and nice to be around, which is a lot of, you know, the marketing meetup community is about, is important. You want to be, you want to be known, right? Absolutely. I love that. And like Steve, you're so lovely, but you're so right. One quick note on the podcast thing as well, that I found to work well in the past is, if you're looking to build a relationship with someone that you don't know and you're not going to be in the same room as, it's also very lovely to invite them on a podcast. Because it's a flattering thing. You have an hour conversation with someone and there is a semblance of a relationship as well. So very, very lovely. By the way, Laurent is just catching lovely comments on the side here as well with, with, had Louise say, Laurent is one of the people I'm most frequently signpost people to in who are new to marketing. So you sat there quietly at the moment, Laurent, you just kept in praise. Yeah, I just kept. Yeah. Who needs those snacks, Joe? We'll just do webinars. [LAUGHTER] Do you mind, because we've talked about visibility. But there's something Steve said, talking at events and LinkedIn, all of that stuff. Someone has put in the chat about speaking at events is so difficult. And we've said they were extrovert and Joe and I only use introvert. Honestly, it is difficult, but it works. Because as everything we've been saying here, people get to see you, they get to know you, you get to say you're, then I would rather stand in front of a room full of people for 20 minutes than have to do the networking around the room. Because that is really difficult. To get on the circuit, yes, is tough. So do your own. For those of you that don't own me, like I've been doing a monthly LinkedIn Live webinar for five years, once a month, every month, showing up consistently, it's free to attend, creating my own. So it doesn't have to be just everyone else's events as well. You can do your own stuff and find your own ways to be visible. And if I pick up on the fact that we're freelance, some of this stuff actually is because we can't always talk about what we do for our clients. And you haven't asked us that. None of us have said we work for and we do this. And we've achieved this because that's actually under NDAs and stuff, something that is really difficult to do. So in terms of marketing ourselves, finding those other ways of letting people get to know us and what we do and where we play and where we go to, that's the wraparound stuff. Absolutely. I love that so much. And I think it's such a fabulous point that you raise. Because I don't think anyone is going to spend the day with me at a conference like they have I remember 18 month later. But what they may remember is the onstage, because that's a comfortable playing space. I think you're dead right, you know. And so it's beyond right. Thank you for adding that. I really, really appreciate it. Let's come to you, firstly, run on this one. Because I know that something that also sits with folks is how much to charge, which is tricky. And so how did you set your first rate? Granted, we now have an awareness of your story. But how did you set your first rate? And how wrong was it when you actually did it? Yeah. OK, so this is where we're going to do two answers. So because, again, slightly differently, for probably my situation, because I started off kind of transferring from being an employee to being the consultant. My old MD actually worked out what my day rate was for what it cost them to employ me with holiday fees and national insurance and everything else. So he had actually worked out what a day rate-- what day rate I should charge back to him based on what I was on my salary. So he gave me that figure to start with, and I added more on. Because I wanted to. And obviously, because you then got-- he hadn't taken into account that my age and laptop and phone and all those other things that were a cost. So I started off with the equivalent of my salary. But of course, as a freelance or anyone running a business, not all of your time, 9 to 5 Monday to Friday, is billable time. So you have to kind of take into account how much time you're going to be. you have to sell if you're selling it on that basis. But really, for me now, I have increased it quite significantly. I'll be really honest and say it depends. It depends what the project is, depends what my life is like at the time, how much I want it. If it's a particular type of organisation, I know how much happening might be involved in getting something happening. Happening, you know, that can take into account. But I think for me, I work out what do I need to earn as my base? What would I like to earn? And then I map and plan things out accordingly. So I'm always really focused on what's kind of guaranteed and booked in, what's coming up, wherever I've got flex. And also like knowing my own value as well, I think is probably the hardest thing to do. But, you know, ask and see what happens. Yeah, because the only answer, and I don't know, 50 crit that we can't go. You get it not back. I love that. And can I just very quickly pick up on one of your sentences towards the end of the answer there, which was knowing your own value as one of the hardest parts? Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't want to turn this into a therapy session, but I'd be curious like on your journey on that and sort of understanding your own value. And I think if I can share a small story. So I, you know, after we've said, you know, I've been writing books over the years, and I'll say you do not make any money from the book itself. But I do remember speaking to someone a few years ago who I basically said, you know, I'd love to come and deliver this training session in-house for you, but it's going to take me two days because I'm going to have to travel three hours a day before and stay overnight. And almost like, I'm sure you can find someone a bit closer to deliver this. And she said to me, yeah, but you've written this book and they've read this book and they want you to come in so we can, we can justify that fee. And for me, that was a bit of a turning point of like actually look at, look at what I'm bringing. And it's not just three hours of my time. It's, you know, 15 years plus an all the time that I do spend researching and writing books and the time I spend on free events and everything else. So I think it's, and how did I work that value out? I just put in a fee and sort of wait for the answer and then do it again the next time. So I think it's quite hard. And I think there is, you know, there's obviously ways like freelance reports out of what hourly rates are and you can see what those are. I think you just have to do what feels right for you and what you're comfortable with as well as where I sit. I love that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing like genuinely such a helpful answer and there's so many lovely chat comments here as well. There's one that came up above which was from Karen. I once, I was once told to quote a day rate that makes your eyes water and then negotiate if you have to. You know, in the sandwich different methodologies out there and stuff like that. But to hear your experience and your own is fabulous. Steve, can I just write out to the two of you and sort of see if you've got any builds or any advances on what the answer is just described? Well, only to say that if it helps at all, almost every freelance we're spoken to no matter how experienced they are, even if they've been freelance and for 30 years, still feels like they're making it up. Still feels a little bit sick when they make the quote and think, you know, so it is something that you can experiment with. I would say to remember, and this is something that you can mention on a call or in a contract, for example, if you're going to be working with somebody for a long time, when are you going to put that right up? Where's the window that you can increase that rate? Because if you say from the beginning, oh, you know, every year I put my rate up by 5% or whatever. Then it's nice and it's clear and it will feel great from the beginning. But if you suddenly find you have been working with them for three years and you wish to put it up by 5% every year and then you tell them you're going to put it up by 20% and they're like, how much? So it's thinking about the longer term in that respect as well, about not just what the rate is now. But one thing I have found is for sure, if ever I take on a project and maybe they have negotiated me down, I end up resenting that project. Like I end up either resenting them, resenting myself being cross with myself for taking that work on. It's much better is if they try to negotiate you down, it's at that point for you negotiate what the scope of the work is. It's like, okay, well, if that really is your budget, then here's what I can do for that. This is how that would be different and try and approach it from that. So they still respect what it is that you do. I love that so much. That's so, so helpful. Thank you very much. I owe anything from you. I do want to shout out and just say Jonathan Stark who does all the kind of value-based pricing stuff. He's amazing to listen to. He listens to his podcast around how to price really fascinating. But it's also about realising your value and what you bring to a firm. I was thinking it's really good for that. But I think I also had a coach who also said to me that if you, like when you say a rate to somebody, if you don't feel slightly worried about it and anxious about it, then it's not high enough. And then once you get used to saying it out loud and a number of times, then you can up it a bit more. And I kind of like that in a way, if like actually, I think sometimes we all, especially for women as well, is like we might undervalue what we do or under price ourselves. So I've actually started using Claude as a coach sometimes. And I'll be like, okay, what should I say? What might, you know, and just just use it just to kind of sense check some of it because I think sometimes just lowballing yourself, because I used to find days to go into meetings and be like, hey, my price is this. And then I talk myself out of it before you even respond it. So I think it's a skill that we've all got to learn and what our value is. And yeah, we're all still, we'll keep learning. Absolutely. You're so right. And I think so much of this because certainly in the first instance, even in the way we position this webinar is like, you're going at this alone, quote-unquote. You have communities like the Mark Demeter, and being freelance and freelance a magazine and stuff like that. But when you end up in that room, still so often it does feel like yourself. So like that, that sort of self-talk and these methods are so appreciated. So thank you very much. I just wanted to acknowledge that I can see a few questions coming into the Q&A feature. So as well as the buzzing chat, we've got some Q&A coming in. So I just wanted to acknowledge that and that I will ask those questions as well. With the questions that we're asking so far, I'm hoping they'll cover the widest amount of stuff and then we can go narrow. But if you have any questions, do drop them in the Q&A too. A little bit in the spirit of what you just been speaking about AOE. So I'm going to come to you first on this. I remember when I started in self-employment, I guess I was running a company straight off the bat. I did something silly, which was I just stopped. I had a real mental block. I'm giving contracts to people. Because for me it was like that was in some way being corporate and I didn't want to present as a corporate person. And I remember I actually went through some coaching and she was like, "You're being silly." And I was being silly. And so I moved past that and it's only with the the time passing that I realised that I was not really helping myself. I'm curious whether there's any things in your journey where you look back on in a similar way to my contract example where you're like, "Ah, I was being a bit silly at that point at the time." Or, "I've learned to not be quite emotionally charged about whatever it may be if that makes sense." That's a question. I think for me, I think the thing for me was that I probably thought about working for myself for about four or five years before I actually did it or before my hand just forced and I did it. And I think for me, I probably should have done this sooner. Looking back with hindsight, that was the one thing where you thought, "Actually, I probably should have done this because it actually works for me and what I needed more." And that's probably the biggest thing I've kind of looked back on and go, "Actually, I probably should have done this sooner." - I love that. And could I ask why? Because it's easier working for other people, right, in many ways. I always like, "Your salary lands in your bank account at the end of the month." Or he does. And I think that's the thing. It's like, you know, we have to kind of be mindful that when you work for yourself, you have to do the work to bring it in and land the work and deliver it so that you can invoice it. And I think that is a very different than your salary lands regardless of that project's delayed or whatever. And I think that is a reality of life that we all have to kind of deal with. So it is, and I think that's security, right? But I think the market's changed anyway. Nobody's really got security. If you work in house, that's changed completely. I mean, now you care of people being let go from agencies and happening, you know, downsizing and all this kind of stuff is, you know, 30,000 people more ago or the other week. And I think the whole kind of market shifting anyway. So I think that kind of security, nobody really has anymore. So we've all got to kind of understand how we're going to navigate through our careers, right? Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for speaking to that. It's really dead health. I hope it's such a positive reframe for anyone who sort of sat on this decision right now. Steve, how about you from your experience or the experience that you've heard of others? Well, one thing I always think I wish I'd realized was not to have all your eggs in one basket and I fall in the strap still today. So I went freelance full time. I was freelancing on the side for years, but I went full time freelance about 12, 13 years ago went out, second kid was born, so I could look after the children. I could work from home. But the thing that gave me the real confidence was I had this really great regular gig, but was giving me almost my monthly income from my full time job again. So I was like, okay, well, I've got that. I'll get a bit more. I've got this other project that would be fine. So I handed in my notice and then worked my three month notice and about a month into that, the company who I had that lovely gig with got more investment from other people and they changed their marketing sort of focus bloody marketers. And suddenly that whole job got taken away from me. So this big thing which I thought was going to be what I was relying on had gone, even before I'd gone freelance. And that was it. It was like all my eggs were in that basket. So from then on, I've always tried to have lots of little or not lots of little, but multiple clients or at least multiple clients possibly on the radar so that it's not all focused on one thing. And it can be really true. It's happened to me since like where you know, you get a big regular gig and you've only got so much time. So it's like, well, why would you turn that down? Because obviously you're enjoying it. It's bringing you in money. But you need to be conscious that you still need to be working those other relationships at the very least so that you're not in that trap. So thank you Steve for sharing that. I think that's endlessly helpful. This feels as a sort of semi-catchable question, a useful line to keep on pursuing. So Luron, do you have any reflections over your time? I think I'm with you on the contract stuff. And it's for me, again, it's like the running the business stuff. I'm probably like, you know, I just want to do the marketing that I love and do the work that I love. I feel like that's the admin chore. But it's absolutely important to keep on top of it. And I would share with the room. I'm going through an HMRC inspection at the moment because I was randomly selected once in 15 years. And you know, that's an eye-opener about how many reports that they want and that they're checking. And if I wasn't so diligent at, you know, using, I use free agent for my accounting software and have all the records. I know why I've done things and how I've done things like I literally had an hours phone call on how I run the business, what are my income streams, where do I charge, do I work globally? And you have to know how to run a business and how to keep on top of things. And contracts are icky. But for me, the icky thing about them has been copyright and IP, the amount of contracts I've received from clients that basically want me to assign everything I've ever done in my life over to them. And I've had to kind of kick back or things like that. So I think you have to, I think I could summarize it like you've got to protect yourself and protect your business by being really strong on the admin. And you know, we've got almost all the way through. We have to say the word IR35 when it comes to freelance or fractional or contracting. Because that has been one of the, you know, the challenges over recent years of, is it inside, is it outside, how's this going to work? And, you know, that's really important that you know how to run a business. Absolutely. So I'm going to confess to complete ignorance here, Lauren, with IR35. And so like, could you, could you do a, not a, not a legal answer? No, I'm going to be honest. Yeah, well, yeah. IR35 was simply brought in, you know, and it's not great and it's not straightforward, but it's, it's so that organizations aren't employing freelancers as if they were an employee. So it's not a, a loophole. So, you know, there's quite a lot around, you know, could you be substituted? Do they define where you work or you're using your own equipment, things like that? So it's basically like, are they treating you as an employee? And if that's dubious, that's against IR35. So coming back to Steve's kind of like, if you have multiple clients, multiple income streams, you know, you're absolutely fine, which is kind of, if we bring it back to the title, the fractional thing, which for me feels a bit more like it could be interim or like a role, I think there is IR35 challenges around that. If you want to know more, go to the Ipsy website, IPSE, Stephen, I have both ambassadors for Ipsy. They are the ones that lobby the government on behalf of us as to what it means and how to support us and check things. So just make sure you understand IR35. Thank you so much, Lauren. That's so, so useful. And you know, when you, as a business owner, you start sweating. When you start. Yeah. It's all you are doing, Jack. Yeah, you're fine, Jack, as far as possible. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's take a last question for myself and then we'll do the last ten minutes as a wrap up for any community questions that come in because I can see that we have 12. So we have 12 questions for those ten minutes. We mentioned AI earlier. I think you swore when you use those two letters. And I'm curious, given the situation of like everything is not everything is changing. Let's not do that. Some things are changing when it comes to technology and so on and so forth. But it would have had an impact on your roles in various different ways. Stephen, I'm coming to you first on this. How has it changed the kind of work that you charge for? And are you, how are you sort of like, I don't want to say repositioning. So I don't think it needs to be a repositioning exercise. But how are you adapting what you're going out to the world with, given what people are looking for in sort of like a more AI environment for another better phrase? Well one thing I do do is experiment with it. So I know what I'm up against in effect. I know what the competition is or and I know it's good points and I know it's bad points and I can speak to them. In some instances I might even use it like in, I mean, this is very to my industry. But for podcasting, it's really great for improving sound. It's really great for transcriptions, for example. But what I also know is you could get it to create a load of clips, for example, but if you're not careful, they end up looking like everybody else's clips. So I'm able to sort of speak to that and position myself more like the sort of craftsman, I guess. And who actually knows how to use all of these different things to create the best result. So both against sort of like lower entry editors, but also those using AI and not really lazily to what I might create as a more sort of artisan approach. And I think that's kind of how I'm looking at it. So I'm not against it, but I also can see how it can damage a brand. So you can end up creating stuff which isn't good for your marketing, because lots of what I create is it isn't people's marketing channels. Because if you start to sort of like break that trust or the quality that you've built up over years, then that's kind of gone just like that. So it's kind of like working with people to help them understand when they've heard about this shiny thing that they could use. Thank you, Steve. And I feel like this could be a whole webinar in itself, but I'm also mindful that I'll know I feel super respectful to the community and get in their questions answer as well. So Lurana, do you have anything particularly pertinent on this question before we head into the final few? I think there's some things kind of just scanning the questions as well. I think, you know, AI is a great tool. We can't deny that, you know, it's part of what we're doing. It's now like the employee that I don't have or have it never hired, but now can have that support. I think as a consultant, what we have to now realise is that our clients will say something like, I asked Chechi PT and it said this and we have to be ready with our response of like, oh, well, that's fine. Let me go away and do this or let's think about this. So we have to understand where our clients are with using it and understanding it as well. At the end of the day, clients to Chechi PT, AI, other tools are available. They don't have knowledge. They don't have experience. They don't have stories. They don't have critical thinking. So it's a tool. We have to understand it, but we also have to understand how it might be fitting into our clients' lives so that we can kind of respond to manage that. I guess in a kind of way, it's no different to the MD saying, my nephew recommended you not to talk over what I've already done. It's obviously very different to that, but it's also a similar sort of conversation in the way that you take it. So fabulous. Thank you very, very much. me. propose a quick fire round. And so we're making the rules up. Right. [LAUGHTER] I'm going to read out the question from the community member. And I'd just encourage one of you to jump in if that's OK. And we'll try and get through as many questions as we can from the community. So the first one comes from Rebecca. So Rebecca says, how do you tackle not being able to name or talk about the projects you've worked on when people-- four people as your portfolio or case studies? So any takers? Me. I think that what you can do is talk about your process, talk about your views. There's ways around it. You can also do hypothetical. Nice. Love that. Oh, oh, no. Look, yeah. [LAUGHTER] OK, I like this. This is great. Cool. OK, let's go next to Eden. So Eden says, is it better to have set prices for set work slash hours on a website? So customers have an idea of how much you cost or can you charge for each client if you build a demand for you? Are monthly retainers a good idea or not due to scope creep? So we've got prices on websites and also monthly retainers versus scope creep. Steve Smiling. I'm going to take a few. Do as the silence. [LAUGHTER] I'll take the next one. Lots of people do think putting your prices on your website is a good idea, even if it's like a from-- this service from-- it kind of depends how selective feature-based services is. You know, like how honed in a bit like buying a product off a shelf, but saying it's from. And the reason you might want to say it's from this price is because at least then that means that people below that aren't even good above a getting in touch. But there's a lot of nuance to the argument. I'd love that. Even as it's starting place, and it's actually something we've struggled at TMM. So even a from number is a great indicative thing. So that's a really great answer, Steve. I also think-- don't be scared to ask people what their budget is either. Very true. They can be really annoying with that answer, but it puts the pressure on them. Again, don't speak in the silence. Just make it. You know what? Some people, they might not put their prices on their website as such, but they might have a contact form or a form that they send to people. And on that form, it will say, watch your budget, and it will have brackets. And that just at least gets them thinking that you're in those sort of ball parks. Like, so it changes things inside their brain before they even get on a call with you. That's it. Can I just jump in and be a little bit controversial on this? How many people actually Google and come to a website and then submit an inquiry for the kind of work consultants and freelancers do? I would say very, very few. And also inbound inquiries. And honestly, if price is the first question they ask, I eliminate it out quite quickly, because I know that they're just looking for three alternative costs. I'm not going to compete on price with others, and I don't want that to be the first question as well. So pricing psychology is so important. But please don't think that what you display on your website is the key to success for your business. People don't sit on Google for most of what we all do and buy from a website page. They listen to podcasts. They watch webinars. They read blogs and everything else. So don't make that a crux of what you're doing. Too many people rely on it. And it's the value that you bring to them. Yeah. That you make happen. That's more important. Yeah. You guys are so good. Thank you very much. Lohan, let's go to you for this next one. How do you contract your services, formally, or email, et cetera? And how do you deal with project creep? Yeah. So the proper answer is always have contracts. I've always had contracts in 15 years, because I've worked with people that I've known for a very long time and take it on the basis of trust. But I do have things in writing in terms of PO numbers and things like that. I would say, actually, I haven't struggled often with scope creep, because often I'm defining the scope to start off with. And if it's usually for me, I can audit or try to answer a question. And if it takes me 10 days to get there or three days to get there, I value-- I put a value to the project rather than specifically about how much time it takes. My biggest issue has often been time creep. And that you think you're going to get that project done in the next month. And people don't have time to come back to your meetings or conversations and holidays and that things can take a lot longer. So I do think there's something about you defining the scope and how you then price that is up to you. But my biggest learning over the past couple of years is, and it has to be completed by so that it doesn't take forever. Because then you don't know whether to move on to other projects or other work because you might have something lingering. So I'm management. But on scope creep, though, Joe, I've had, like, when I've done copywriting projects for websites, and they've started at one size and then just expanded out, which happens if engineering firms. But the thing is, actually, just sometimes just going, hold on a minute. I think you're asking me to do way more. And then going back and being analytical, looking at it and going, actually, I scope 45 projects you've now got 60, like, which has happened. So I then go back and saying, right, this is the audit trial, what you want. Here's a new price. So you have to do that. And you can be positive about that, kind of, because sometimes it can feel like people are saying, no, you didn't say you wanted this. But you just go back and say, yeah, there's no problem. But it's going to cost this. Yeah, but you've just got the audit trial and you look back. And then you give them, this is it. It's how it is. It's going back to the facts, right? As you say, there is-- as you say, Steve, there can be a positive emotion associated with that. But then there can also be-- here are just the stated facts. And there's neither loaded or anything. It's just what is type of thing. So that's fabulous. This hour has just shot by-- it's been ridiculous and fun and useful and just brilliant. If I could ask one final question of each of you, just because it's a great catch-all question at the end. Sarah has asked, what one piece of advice would you give someone thinking about going freelance or fractional? Steve, I'm going to come to you first, because you've probably heard more people get one line as on advice to be given to people going freelance or fractional. I could give so much of both. I do think other freelancers are not the competition. And therefore, to surround yourself with others going through it. And that's not just to plug the being freelance community or the marketing meets up and so on. But you need to have people who get it. And sometimes, literally, like people who have the same job like Joanna and I here could be seen to be doing very similar things. But what if one of them couldn't do the job? And they end up referring to the other person. It's amazing how the people you meet could end up referring to you. And they might even be doing the same thing that you do. So don't shut yourself off. Other freelancers aren't the competition. I love that so much. Thank you, Lou. Again, this is probably a hard, worn advice. But I think it's about-- we might think that we're selling time, but actually manage your headspace and how much you can take on and have in terms of clients or work or projects or things going on in your head at any one point in time. So don't try and sell every hour of every day and cram your diary, put time in for space. Lovely. And I know there was a question in the Q&A about that balance thing, which is so deep and could go to so much. So thank you for speaking to that as well. That's really a pretty good one. Final words to you. I think my thing is don't be thinking that you need to have like a brand and a website and all this stuff before you get going, all the Chinese stuff. I think like literally you can have-- this is what I've business is. And you email, you've got a list of people you've worked with before. And a PDF of what you're going to be doing, no if you go. And I think that people were trying to say that you've got to have all this amazing Chinese stuff. And I don't actually think you do. Perfect. Absolutely perfect. Honestly, I hope at the same time as speaking, or three of you have been able to digest the wonderful, wonderful comments coming in from the community. And I just want to say thank you all so much everyone there. I don't know why. I'm an emotional man. So I'm looking at some of the comments and I'm tearing up here. Well, I've been asked some due to people, but there you go. So I just want to say thank you so much for three of you. Thank you to the community for being absolutely fabulous, as always. I hope this has been endlessly useful for all of you. As Claire says in the chat, so much great advice share by the three of you. So thank you so, so much. Everyone, if you want to check out the GEO audit from Prismic after today's session, then please do a big thank you to our sponsors as ever. Thank you to the community. Thank you to all three of you. And we'll see you next Thursday. for our next webinar. So thank you all so so much and thank you. Thank you.