Gloria Steinem -- a trailblazing feminist, and how Canadians are rallying around Lake Ontario

Making new electoral maps is usually a pretty routine process, but not in Alberta. I'm Kathleen Petty, and this week on West of Centre, how a nonpartisan process exploded into political theater with accusations of American-style gerrymandering and threats of a court challenge. What does it all mean for democracy in Alberta and could it set a precedent for the rest of Canada? We'll get into it this week on West of Centre. Find and follow wherever you get your podcasts. It is impossible to think about the feminist movement without thinking about Gloria Steinem. Today, just before our show, we learned that the author and activist and pop culture icon has died. She was 92 years old. So today we want to take a moment to talk about Gloria's legacy and how she changed the conversation. I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud. This is Commotion. Elizabeth Renzetti is a culture writer and journalist. Good morning, Liz. Good to see you. How's it going? Very well. How are you today? I'm well, thanks. It's so good to see you. Listen, you've written about Gloria in the past. I'm wondering if we can just start by just asking you, what went through your mind when you heard that Gloria Steinem died this morning? Oh, no, not another one. Not another one of our giants taken away from us at the moment that we need the most. But on the other hand, she leaves behind such a monumental legacy in her books, in her reporting. And the influence she's had on young feminists. Yeah, I mean, she lived a long life, right? 92 years old. And in that long life, she changed so many lives. And she sparked so many different iterations of a feminist movement. I want to play you a clip from an interview that Gloria Steinem did. This interview is from 1974. In it, she's asked about what she was up to the year that Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique came out. And she reveals that it was sort of years ahead of her own feminist awakening. I was making my living as a freelancer. writer in New York as a journalist. I understood what made me feel angry and humiliated, but I didn't understand why. I dealt with it just by not ever wanting to write about women's subjects. And I guess I was still flattered when someone said to me, you write like a man. I would say, thank you. And it wasn't until several years later when the women out of the left, you know, out of SDS, out of SNCC, out of many of those groups, began to really talk about feminism in a political way that made it clear that it was something that concerned all women. She's starting a journey there, Elizabeth. She's starting a journey from taking it as a compliment when she hears that you write like a man to identifying something that concerns all women. What's your reaction to that clip there? Well, you know, you have to remember that when she was a woman, women couldn't have credit cards. They couldn't get bank loans. In many places, they couldn't sit on juries. They couldn't choose a life of childlessness, which is what she did. So really, she was, you know, revolutionary in so many ways. She started writing about, for example, things that nobody else was writing about. So the need for single women to have contraceptives, her own abortion, the sexual harassment she experienced when she worked at the Playboy Club, most famously. That's right. And she was also, the thing that I found so inspiring about her is that she was, she understood in a very profound way that feminism is one of a group of kind of intersecting systems of oppression that all have to be taken into account at the same time. So she worked for workers' rights. She was a huge proponent of racial justice, for example. And I saw her speak with Angela Davis at the Women's March in Washington in 2017, a moment now that we look back on, you know, they spoke with such hope, you know, this is a great kind of democratic moment. Hundreds of thousands of women in Washington, millions around the world gathered together. And looking back now in this time of profound backlash to the rights of women and girls and trans people and non-binary people, her legacy, I think, is even more powerful. I think the thing that you just highlighted there is really important to maybe point out for people. I just want to spell it out for a moment, right? You know, we now use the term intersectionality to talk about all the ways that all those different oppressions intersect. That term doesn't really come into existence until relatively recently, right? So we're talking about like late 80s, mid 90s. But there's something kind of interesting to me, right, about the idea that when we think about Gloria Steinem, the thing that you referenced, right, going undercover at the Playboy Club, that was her big breakthrough article. She wrote, she went undercover at Playboy and then she wrote this piece that, you know, was sort of understood as, okay, here's what's happening in the Playboy Mansion, but really ended up improving like the lives of working people who were working at the Playboy Mansion because she saw it as a labor issue, right? You also get her starting Miss Magazine, the most infamous article perhaps is, and could menstruate from that. Just as a writer and as a provocateur, what did she mean to you? Because you're a writer as well. Like, where do you see her influence as a writer? Well, thank you for calling me a provocateur. Oh, always. Of course. I'm so happy to hear that. You know, she's kind of was a prototype of the journalist slash activist, right? As a journalist, as an activist. And she was unashamed of it. You know, she went out and fought for the rights of flight attendants. For example, migrant workers in California, and then wrote about them. And, you know, now we're caught up in this idea that like, journalists have to show some kind of, you know, complete non bias. And she was a bit like, that is just wrong. I can only write from my own place of understanding of what the world is and bring that reality to people. One of the tools that she was unafraid to use, of course, was pop culture, right? And I think she sort of understood very early on that. If you're going to engage people in the conversation about feminism, one of the most powerful tools you could do so do with, you know, is in fact, pop culture, how do you think her feminism sort of ends up crossing into pop culture? Because you see Gloria Steinem references all over pop culture in movies and television shows for literally decades and decades? Well, I don't think it hurt that she was a babe, right? Like, let's, let's be honest here. She was a babe. She was unabashed. And she was like a beautiful woman. And this is in a time, and this time continues to today, when you know, feminists get denigrated as unsexy, as ugly as whatever, right? Man hating all of these things. And she comes along and she has like the mane of a lion and these cool aviator glasses, and her stylish bell bottoms. And she flipped that script on its head. And I think by perplexing people, she made them think differently about the movement, right? So then we see her in pop culture. Like, if you saw her on the Flintstones, you'd be like, that's Gloria Steinem. That's Gloria Steinem, like the aviators and everything. So I, and then she was played by Rose Byrne and Alicia Vikander on screen. So that's a pretty, I think a pretty good testament to the impact she had on pop culture. I will say like, you know, this morning, as I was coming to work, sort of, looking at all the announcements, all the tributes that are pouring out for Gloria Steinem, there are so many condolences from celebrities, Marissa Tomei, Lily Tomlin, Julianne Moore, like there's just so many people, they're saying, they're saying their condolences, but they're also they're offering their gratitude. What are the sort of tributes that are standing out for you? Well, I, you know, what I think is so interesting about this is that this is a safe way for, let's say, celebrity women or A-list women in Hollywood to signal, what they truly believe. And maybe some of them, especially in the climate that we're seeing recently, have been afraid to be unabashed feminists, not Lily Tomlin, taking her out of that equation. But if you're a celebrity, you know, it's okay to say, I loved Gloria Steinem, and she meant so much to me. So it's a little bit like a gateway for them to admit what their true feelings are. And it was, it's beautiful. You know, the same thing we saw with Dolly Parton, she was really a figure that that unites people. Yeah, I think like losing Dolly and Gloria in the same week, it just feels too much. It really does. Those are those are two sort of North Stars in this particular realm. So it feels very difficult to sort of like, kind of square that I got to tell you, Gloria Steinem has this new memoir coming out. It's coming out this month. It's called Unexpected Life. And when Vanity Fair asked what was most unexpected in general, she said, quote, I'm not sure I saw any of it coming. I grew up in the 1950s in postwar conservatism, it was supposed to be that women married and had more children to replenish the population. And we were probably going to live where we were born. None of those things turned out to be true for my life. When you hear that, what lesson do you take away from that? Freedom, freedom and liberty, which is how she chose to live her life. And I think, even though we are in a moment of backlash, and for example, in the States, there's a movement to disenfranchise women. Women also have time to live their lives. Women also have a ton more freedom than they did when Gloria Steinem was growing up. And she's part of the reason for that. So I think if you take anything away from her life and her lessons, it is to live the life that you want to live. for yourself and not for the life that society expects you to have. I think there's also a degree, that idea of freedom expands to language. You know, there's just a new set of words there are to use than before she was around. Literally, the expression of what freedom looks like looks different because of Gloria Steinem's life. Liz, I really appreciate your reflections on the life of a giant. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me, pal. I really appreciate it. I'm happy to do it. Yes, of course. Listen, I'm going to keep you around because we are going to have another conversation, right? We're going to be talking about the ways that Canadians are right now rallying around Lake Ontario. But I just want to say thank you so much for speaking with me about this. Liz Renzetti is a journalist based right here in Toronto. And for more on Gloria Steinem's life and legacy, go to cbcnews.ca. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud, and this is Commotion. And we're going to shift gears here because I want to talk about what has happened in this country in the last week and a half or so. After U.S. President Donald Trump signed that executive order to rename Lake Ontario as Lake America, there's been a bit of a question, right? The question is, like, do we really have to take this seriously? And the response from Canadians has been so far a definitive no, thank you. And we've seen a lot of artists and a lot of artists, like, you know, like, you know, from memes, expressing solidarity, defending our sovereignty. Liz Renzetti is back with me here, and musician Donovan Woods is here. Hello to both of you, friends. Hello. Hey, how you doing? I'm well, pal. Listen, Donovan, I'm going to start with you because normally when you're on the CBC, you talk about your wonderful music, and we love you for it. But today, I want to talk about a different set of expertise that you have. Really, it's a unique set of expertise that only you possess, which is that every year, one thing that you do is you publish an incredibly scientific annual report. It's called the Great Lakes Ranking of All the Great Lakes, which, to me, that makes you an expert on the Great Lakes, pal. I got to say, Lake Ontario, not normally very high on your list, but has this whole sort of Lake America business made you think, maybe I should think about Lake Ontario differently? No, I think it would be a disservice to the list to allow this to affect my point of view. Listen, I'm just bummed out that my personal hobbies have collided with fascism. I don't know. You know, what's he coming for, Nick? He's attacking our morals and our beliefs, and now he's going to start talking about our favorite TV shows soon? Like, get out of here. Stop. And I'm just sad about it. I'm just sad that I have to hear him talk about the Great Lakes. He knows nothing of the Great Lakes. I mean, this is, I think, the thing that's sticking out for me, Donovan, is that before this whole thing happened, I would normally not hear too many people talk about the Great Lakes. I would normally hear about your ranking, and every year, every year, Lake Huron is at the top of the list, because you do nothing but stand for Lake Huron. That is a thing that you do. But now everybody's talking about your personal interest. Does that feel like, hey, at least people are engaged in the lakes. Like, is that exciting for you? No. I don't want this to be the way people come to the lakes. I would love people to love the lakes for what they are. And listen, letting this affect my ranking or letting this affect anybody's opinion of the Great Lakes would be a great thing. Exactly what he's trying to do. The Lake Ontario knows its name, okay? Deep down inside its cold, unforgiving waters, it whispers its name to itself sweetly, and it knows its name. And we'll never know its true name. And I hope we never know. And all this, we can fritter and fret about whatever we like on the surface. The lake will still kill us when we're canoeing. It feels nothing. We should let this pass as we do a storm. And it will soon be gone. I feel like I have to stand up a little tiny bit for Lake Ontario, which is the lake, you know, I grew up in Toronto. I swam in the lake from when I was a little kid. I swim in it now. And yes, I agree. It is not, you know, it's not the Marilyn Monroe of lakes. It's not the most attractive or beautiful lake. That is true. But it's our lake. And I feel like it's a bit like if you're somebody in high school made fun of your brother and you at home. I diss your brother all the time. Yeah. But when somebody in high school says your brother's an idiot, you're like, excuse me. That's my brother. Well, back off, my brother. I will say at Donovan will tell you it's it's not a bad lake. Fourth on the fourth out of five in terms of the Great Lakes. They're all great. They're all great. Liz, what did you what do you first what did you first think when you first heard of Trump's plans to rename Lake Ontario? Basically, dear Lord, I'm ready to go. Take me away. I can't listen to him for another five minutes. Yeah. But at the same time, it was more serious than that. You know, I was talking to my daughter who's 20 years old and she was like, Mom, why is he allowed to do this? And I had no good response to that because what am I supposed to say? He's like Mad King Ludwig of Bavaria, you know, changing things with his quill pen that they're the arbitrariness of it is shocking. And the degree to which Republicans and other powerful people have fallen in step is disheartening to say the least. I got to tell you, I admittedly have a bit of a selfish reason for wanting to have this entire discussion. I want you guys to have a listen to this. What did you snuff all of this for this end of the night? Had I been better, I would have let my family out. So that is a video. I recorded that video, Donovan. It was me. I did that. What folks just heard just there was Blue Rodeo last week singing in Toronto. The singing hasn't hit me yet. They close out the show with this and they've got that line, you know, watching the snowfall on this cold December night out in the middle of Lake Ontario. And when they hit that line, the whole place, 16,000 people, you know, at the RBC amphitheater just went nuts and a significant reaction. I posted that clip at one in the morning, Donovan. I woke up and my phone was blowing up. I had 1.7 million views. I was like, I don't know anything about how this happened. And I'm not telling you any of this to tell you, hey, I'm really good at social media. That's not why I'm doing this. Donovan, the reason I'm doing this is because like to me that felt like, oh, there's something here. There's something really big about this emotional exhale of like 16,000 people who just need to yell out the words Lake Ontario. What do you make of the way the Canadians are responding right now? Well, I think that's beautiful. I mean, I think that, I mean, I watched your clip. I thought it was lovely. I mean, I think that anything that, you know, we all know that getting together in a big group and screaming out something is the way you're supposed to be living your life. I mean, I think it's beautiful. I think the thing that makes me feel conflicted about is that we know in this day and age that negative attention and positive attention are essentially the exact same thing in our attention economy. And I worry that we'll all start wearing It's Lake Ontario hats. And I think we might as well be wearing Trump hats. I mean, it's all just more. It's all just more attention, which is all he's seeking. And I feel, you know, I feel conflicted about even speaking about it because we all know that all he's doing is taking more attention. And, you know, it'll never end if we don't put a stop to it, if we don't start ignoring it. You think he's giving too much into the frame that he's introducing in the picture here? Well, he doesn't care about Lake Ontario. Also, it's not even a good, he called it Lake America. That's the most first idea joke I've ever heard in my life. You could hear that there's no pushback from anybody in the room. Nobody goes, is there a funnier name? Because a funnier name would have been Lake Free Trade. That would have been a fun name. Lake Tariff. Yeah, something like that, right? And it's obviously a first idea. He doesn't care. He's not even thinking about this. So why? I feel like it's beautiful to have a moment where we all celebrate that we feel unified. But, like, he's not thinking about us. We shouldn't think about him. I should also say, like, I guess one would imagine that there'd be a lot of love for Lake Ontario at a Blue Radio concert. But that's not the only show, like, only place, like, where the lake is kind of showing up. Have a listen to this. Hello, Toronto! Hello, Canada! Oh, my God. It's been so amazing. We got here. We crossed the Lake of Ontario. I'm just very sorry and embarrassed that we didn't get to do this. We didn't have any hope for a president. But don't give up on us. We have an election coming up, and we're going to do our best. That's, of course, yacht rock icon Christopher Cross. And before that, you heard in the distinctive metal voice of Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden, the Lake of Ontario. So both of those things happened. at a recent show in Toronto. Liz, you wrote this piece for the Toronto Star about American and Canadian relationships in the middle of a sort of Trump 2.0. Obviously, we've been dealing with the economic threats, with the annexation threats. But we also have seen this wave, right, of sort of like the elbows of patriotism in the last little while. What feels different to you about this response, like of a thing that's happening with this Lake Ontario situation? Because it feels maybe more personal in a way. Well, I think, you know, I will know things have changed when Metallica does an album of Sarah McLachlan covers. So I'll wait for that. You know, it does feel different because, you know, the wheels have come off this bus. I think we know that. Like he is, he's threatening, he's threatened annexation. He has called our premiers governors. He has threatened to annex not just our country, but, you know, also Greenland. He's murdering. He's murdering people in the Caribbean. He has deposed the leader of Venezuela and taken their oil. So I feel like this moment, it feels like we're in like cuckoo land. You know, why is nobody trying to put the brakes on this? So it feels very different to me. And also in the sense that Canadians for two years now have said, a lot of them have said not go into the States. I have a friend who's sourcing cat food that's not made. And it costs him a bazillion dollars every month. But he's doing it. You know, this does feel different. We're putting our backs into it. I want to take a listen to what they're saying about us on the other side of the border for a moment. Here's Greg Gutfield speaking on Fox News during a segment they titled Syrup Smackdown. The tariffs thing is really kind of like telling Canada, we're thinking about changing your allowance. You know, the U.S. market is not an entitlement. Stop undercutting us with regulation and manufacturing and energy. Take the security contributions more seriously. Just grow up. That's what we're saying to Canada. Just grow up. It's an unpleasant conversation you have with your family. Donovan, like I hear that and I, you know, I feel the frustration. I see the frustration on your face. Listen, you're a Canadian songwriter. You spend a bunch of time in Nashville. You work a lot down there. How has your experience changed, do you think, kind of going down there, whether it's playing the shows or just sort of, you know, write some songs in Nashville? I don't. I don't like going as much. I find I'm conflicted about it. I work very hard to not have any of these things come up with my American friends because I don't want to hear their opinions. I've been asked in Nashville, a co-writer one time asked me, he said, y'all use American money up there, right? So the understanding of us is so thin and scant that I think people would be surprised. Some people don't know that it's a separate country even to begin with. I think that, I mean, telling us to grow up is like. I mean, we're the immature ones. Come on. Get a grip. I just think that, like, we couldn't reach a point where we're more tired of this stuff. And I don't know. I don't know how to react anymore. I really don't. I have reached the same place that you've reached. Like, it feels sort of, like, distressing because I'm like, I think I'm just out of reactions at this point. Like, I don't. I've somehow arrived at the point of being like, this is so well beyond the thing that I expected. To happen that I don't even know how to move through this. And I got to say, like, even though this whole Lake America thing has been soundly rejected by political reason around the world. One party that did buy into it is Google. Within a couple of days of signing of Trump signing the executive order, Lake Ontario has been relabeled as Lake America on Google Maps, at least for users in the U.S. Liz, what do we do with this? Like, what are we to make of how quickly Google is like, you know what? We'll play ball with the Trump administration. I am shocked, shocked that the world's worst search engine has decided to, you know, be step in line with the, the, the, the fascist government who has given them everything they want. There's no, it is. So Apple did this too, right? The new boss of Apple also apparently after a phone call from Trump himself has also changed the name to Lake America. And I mean, it just shows you this weird. The conflation of the, the tech money and what's going on in Washington and the big tech platforms know what side their shareholders are buttered on. And it's, and, you know, a few million customers in Canada, I guess, don't mean that much to them. I will say, I got to say, so MapQuest has kept the name Lake Ontario in their maps. They've also created these meme generators where users can sort of come up with their own names for the lake. Those memes have been all. All over my feet over the past few days. Donovan, will you be downloading MapQuest, the official map app of the resistance now, I guess? I guess so. I don't even, I didn't know they were still going. I mean, God bless them. I wish them all the best. And I appreciate you doing that. I remember printing off their maps many years ago, but that's my last interfacing with them that I did. I don't think I'll be returning to that. I think MySpace is due for a comeback too with MapQuest. Both back. I appreciate you guys being here and I appreciate the distress in both of your voices and your faces. I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for coming on the show today, you guys. Thanks, Elamin. Yes, of course. Elizabeth Renzetti is a journalist based in Toronto. She's the author of what she said, Conversations About Equality. And Donovan Woods is a Juno Award winning singer-songwriter. He was in Sarnia, Ontario. And that is it for the show today. My name is Elamin Abdelmahmoud. This show is called Commotion. We'll see you again tomorrow. Bye.