Globalization and Cultural Appropriation

Hello and welcome to the Project Good Podcast. I'm your host Ann Rehilton. Project Good is a social impact podcast interviewing experts and advocates about the pressing problems will be faced globally and hearing how they suggest we move forward in the future. The Project Good Podcast is brought to you by Project Good Work. The goal of this podcast is to inspire people and organizations to develop a mindset that can move other subpositive action regarding the complex social issues facing people and the planet. For December, we're focused on identity and we're looking at globalization and cultural appropriation. We live in a world where music, fashion, food and ideas travel across continents and seconds. Globalization has opened the door to unprecedented cultural exchange, allowing us to learn from, collaborate with and appreciate trends far beyond our own. But the same global flow also raises harder questions. What happens when elements of a marginalized culture are adopted without understanding or respect? When sacred symbols become global trends or when the communities who created these traditions don't benefit from the popularity they generate. In this episode we explore the tension between cultural connection and cultural exploitation. We look at how power and balance is shaped, who gets celebrated, who gets copied and who gets erased in a globalized world. And we'll ask, how can we navigate cultural exchange in a way that's ethical, informed and truly appreciative? Let's get into the interview. Professor Rihanna Arra is a critical cultural theorist, professor and head of school of arts at Hall University. And the co-author of the book Journey to the Center of Self, which showcases the experiences of the South Asian psychiatrist between the UK and provides insights into the significance of cultural identity, migration and marginalization on their lives and work. Professor Arra initially studied art history at the University of Lester, which was followed by an MA in theology at the University of Leeds and a PhD at the University of Glasgow. On the expression and experience of the sacred and the death of God, cultural resulting in her 2012 monograph, Francis Bacon. Painting in a godless world, which was long listed for the W. M. Berger art history prize, her research areas include objection and discuss theology, visual art, the sociology of the sacred and visual religious studies. Welcome, Professor Rihanna Arra. Thank you for such a rich and complimentary introduction, I appreciate that and it's great to be a guest on your show. Yes, I'm excited for this discussion because usually when I most of the people I know that have studied art history and I'm sure you probably had already natural inclinations as a child, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. Towards I guess the art world. So what led you I guess on this journey then to start looking at after studying art history, cultural appropriation as an area of study. So I think when I studied art history, I was more interested in theory and about how the politics of art less so about the history in a way. I think my interest in cultural appropriation began long before being at university was in the 90s in the UK as a second generation South Asian migrant. I experienced in my teenage years this sense of feeling part of two cultures, if you like, when I was much younger, there were that where I grew up in in the north of England, there weren't many people from kind of South Asian backgrounds. I like it, it Britain's much more kind of multicultural now and my kind of ethnic culture, if you like, was practiced at home. In the 90s, people started to take much more interest in ethnic minority cultures like South Asian culture or Indian culture. That's the point when I started to think about what it was like to have my ethnic culture which I usually practiced at home or amongst select groups of people. What it was like, so what it was like to now have it in the public domain in mainstream society where people who weren't from the same ethnic background started to take an interest. It was the time in the 90s when pop styles like Madonna started experimenting with different styles in the ray of light, ear, if you like. She experimented with South Asian dress styles and different cultural aspects and there was more besides, there was other kind of South Asian styles that became appropriated. So I think it was that point during multiculturalism in British politics in the 80s and 90s, particularly when I was a teenager. That's when I started to think about what it was like to have my culture taken out of my hands in a different context, particularly like. So the seeds were so men, it was only later being an academic for 10, 15 years that I started to think I'd like to revisit what that period was like for me as a second generation to look at, to see if I could theoretically explore those ideas. The cultural appropriation is a hot topic now in public discourse and in the academy as well. So that led me back really to go back to those earlier experiences to talk about it, to write about it. It's become one of my primary, primary areas of study. It interests me as well because it's interdisciplinary. So there's lots it involves looking at kind of visual culture and material culture, but also issues about kind of sociology and identity politics. So it's a great interest and that's how it came about to answer your question. It was, you know, born out of kind of individual interest really personal history. Now that's, you know, I remember the 90s and seen Madonna remember all those videos. Well, you know Madonna herself is always let's show we say exploratory. I guess that's the best way to describe her as an artist was always looking at that. And so, you know, and that's and that's actually a vivid image because I remember those videos. You know, she used to make all these is to be now I guess it'd be like mild but back then all her videos were considered controversial for for multiple things. And so, you know, and not even thinking about but how that, you know, you know, would play on someone that is from that culture that was a, you know, a young person at that time. And especially because, you know, I, I of course don't know, but I can imagine being that I'm from a different culture growing up in the US being Jamaican and coming here. And I'm sure you're very familiar with Jamaicans in the UK. And just globally around the world, you know, everybody I was like Bob Marley and you know, you know, and everybody always wants to of course play with the Jamaican accent, right? Because I remember that growing up as a child when I would tell people that, that then everybody would just want to say they can, you know, do their accent the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. I'm very, you know, where I'm coming from and from Madonna, it was, you know, one of many phases that she went through, but you're writing in in saying that, you know, within the context of someone's kind of identity, especially when they're growing up, which is a vulnerable time, you know, in your sort of teenage years and as a young cattle. It was, you know, a different of great significance. And so being able to explore that is both a privilege, but also cathartic because it means that I can try and reconcile some of the feelings I had at that stage that I wasn't able to put into words or write about. So to be able to do that now is great. And it's very sort of relevant to to a lot of kind of migrants and second generation, the generation even so it is, you know, a topic that connects us all. Yes. And so I guess first one of the things that I find to me, you know, cultural appropriation is just, you know, clear, but I, you know, like I said, I've experienced it myself growing up. But for a lot of people, they don't seem to understand what it is. So I guess the first thing in this discussion is what is cultural appropriation. Thank you for asking that because I think we need to set down without closing them off definitions and especially in this case because sometimes the definitions don't capture all aspects of the topic if you like. So a cultural appropriations are a major topic, it promotes wide ranging discussion and what it refers to the practice of taking from or using a culture outside of one's own where there's an asymmetry of power between those doing the taking and the culture that's taken from. So it's a relationship if you like between two cultures where the takers have relatively more power than the culture that is being taken from. Beyond that, cultural appropriation takes many forms and covers a range of types of action. So the types of things that can be appropriated include land, you know, artifacts, folklore, artistic styles, forms of knowledge and religious symbols. Why I'm glad you asked me about for a definition is because there's some commentators who seem to think that cultural appropriation is where you get one culture borrowing from another period, but they don't emphasize the asymmetry of power. That's not sufficient to do that and it's damaging because the power imbalance is integral and that is what it problematizes the taking that power imbalance. So it prompts ethical issues about rights, permission and also representation. Yes, you know, a word that kept popping up in my head is the cheapening of something that took a lot of time to develop or has a long history. That's what I always think about, I guess, when I think of cultural appropriation. And what I mean by that is that, you know, in taking from either as you experience, you know, the clothing of, you know, South Asian Asian clothing, whether that's, you know, Indian sorry, sorry, sorry, you know, headdresses or jewelry. And, you know, in my case, talking about an accent, the language and people not understanding why these things are the way they are and just the simplification of it. That, oh, you know, anybody can do it. No, no big deal. So that's what I mean by the cheapening. And I think that's the thing that most people do not understand. And that's the part where I would say the, the, I guess I'll just use the easier word. The pain comes in into play for people. Yeah, absolutely. It is pain. It is pain. And it's like you said, it's a long history of, you know, struggling in oppression. So, as symbols like it, you know, hairstyle like dreadlocks, for example, or a sorry or a bindi, you know, yes, they are a set of symbols to people from within those cultures, but they're also much more. And, and user word cheapening. And that's right. I think in the wrong hands and often outside of the culture. When they're not contextualized, they can take on different meanings that often distort the meanings that a symbol would have within that kind of insider, insider context, if you like. So it can be incredibly damaging. And it's a loss of, it's a loss of power. So it's, you know, it's very, very involving and can cause harm of many different kinds, not just economic harm, but, you know, harm to representation. And that's why it needs to be taken really seriously, because of it's, you know, it's tied to survival and resistance and identity as well. Yes. No, you just brought up something in my mind when you said, you know, that it's harmful in a way. It's not just about, you know, people's emotions. But, and one of the biggest things that I've seen about it is food. Right. Food is, I think, people don't understand. Yes, it sounds simple on the surface. Yes, we all have to eat. But there are different foods, obviously, that have went with different countries and cultures. And then the foods, they become popularized. And I, and it could be like anything from I'm here in California, could be, you know, tacos, because we're right next to Mexico, to, you know, some of the Indian foods are especially a lot of the Asian foods. You see so many, there's so many different stores now with, you know, abundance of Asian drinks and, you know, and different snacks or even some of the items that you could buy in Asia, they're just like popular every day things. So taking, you know, all those different things that are food and people don't understand that the food has economics to it. Because as these things become popularized, not only in the areas that they originated from, but globally, the cost, the cost of those items then start to go up. I saw that personally here in California where they had the Mexican markets that were, and you would go to the Mexican market always. And there they had, of course, the excellent, the best tortillas that were being fresh, which was she made. And they used to be like, you know, 50 cents to a dollar easy. And then, you know, you go back like one year later, now it's five bucks. And what happens is then the people that are part of those cultures get to a point that they can't even afford their own food that there was their culture. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think about the pizza and where that started off, you know, in in Nepal and what it was, it was a kind of simple flop bread with, with herbs. And now we think of the global globalized sort of notion of pizza is very, very different, a far removed from its origins, which, you know, I mean cultures and cultural symbols evolve. And, you know, we can't. Cultures aren't watertight. So that's inevitable in a way. But one of the issues with cultural appropriation is when the. You know, people from ethnic groups, for example, they lose control over what's happening to their culture because it becomes westernized or it becomes globalized. That's when it's problematic. And yes, we do see this most readily with food. You can go into a high stream. You know, cities, capital cities and have an abundance of kind of cuisines, which is, you know, great to be able to sort of explore and learn about different cuisines. But the other side of it too, where we have to think about what costs really does this come. And, you know, to be reflective about what's going on. And then here's the question that I'm sure that, well, it is the question that always pops up as the people that are not part of the cultures, they say, well, shouldn't you be happy that I am, you know, engaging with, you know, these items and like what is, you know, the big deal shouldn't this be a. A happy thing that we're all now, you know, coming together and, you know, eating this food or wearing wearing this clothing, where I guess is the disconnect and why can't, why can't I guess people seem to come to an understanding of where the line is. And, yeah, that's what, you know, and I guess when I say where the line is, like there's like, oh, yes, of course, you know, have a, have a boba drink, but now, you know, you decided you're opening a boba shop and now they do boba, you know, we didn't have strawberry twist, you know, German beer boba. But, before, but now you decide that you're going to, you know, quote unquote, make it better by making it this, you know, strawberry German beer boba twist or whatever. Yeah, that's why that's when a culture becomes ransacked and, you know, that it results in great distortion. And I think people would agree that, you know, it's great to share cultures and we like sharing food and, you know, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that, but it is about boundaries and also food, for example, or dance or music it, they're not just styles, you know, they, they tied to people's identity, they tied to, you know, great kind of histories of, you know, oppression and, and, and, and, you know, that's what I'm saying. And, you know, oppression and, and, you know, the fight to, to survive the fight to belong. And, and not all cultures are equal, so we need to sort of think, you know, we're. more carefully about borrowing, but there's also the matter of superficiality, if you like. So you hear the whole debate about diversity where people talk about being cosmopolitan or being diverse because they consume lots of different cultures. But if it's done superficially in that just because you like a particular cuisine, you might like Indian cuisine, it doesn't mean that you know much about Indian culture. So, and unless the infrastructural problems about inequality are dealt with, then consuming the myth like symbols of a culture is superficial. So I think that's one of the issues that racism isn't dealt with or structural inequalities isn't dealt with, but people are happy to consume different cuisines. That doesn't make us, that's not you know responsible cultural exchange. It needs to be done more fully. So the boundaries are really important. They vary I think from culture to culture. Some cultures are more open and receptive to you know outside influence, but the boundaries should always be there. And when a symbol moves so far away from kind of its origins, that's you know when it can become problematic and which the in this with you know the example you gave. And a lot of new examples or because cultures are much more accessible now because of globalization, it can become fadish so people can run away with an idea because it's new to them and then they think oh we want to develop it in our own ways and that moves it away from you know the kind of host culture. Yes, I have two different thoughts, but ask my first one is do you even think it's possible that we can have an equal exchange between cultures in a world that are shaped by colonial history? Because this is you know when we talk about this, this is essentially this is you know yes we went through colonization, but now because it's a like a technology a mind, it's on a different level now I would say. Yeah, yeah, I think colonial history is it's important to remember this the sense of the colonial and that has had a lasting impact on cultural exchange which is why cultural appropriation needs needs to be taken seriously so is it possible to have an equal exchange? I think true equal exchange is difficult when historical and ongoing power balance is remain unresolved. Colonialism still shapes ideas about whose knowledge is valued, who gets to speak for whom and whose identity is seen as universal. So but even if we can't achieve equality we can aim for responsible exchange and one that centers attribution, content and also relationship rather than extraction so I would say that equal exchange is difficult because colonialism has created these enduring inequalities influencing what gets preserved value, Dory raised. So I guess what to give people for an example because I feel like a vivid example has to be given because and I'm sure you've encountered this too is like explaining people to people doesn't seem to always work like when you're in the situation or they are shut down and they don't want to see what is happening in the moment. So how I guess if there were steps or what are the steps to make sure that we are doing responsible exchange and giving the right credits to any type of item that's been taken for in a different culture. Okay so yeah responsibility is key for thinking about questions about legitimacy of taking, is it fair to take from a culture, want you to ask themselves whether we're looking at, we're not thinking about an artist, a designer, brand, you know what are the consequences of taking, this should involve thinking about the disbenefits the cultures being taken from and these questions are really vital and the dynamic you know so the answers aren't hard and fast but the responsibility has to be informed and intentional and also accountable. People make mistakes but if they own up to that that's part of the important dialogue because it takes place so I think responsibility involves learning about cultures and learning about the historical and it might even be spiritual significance of what you're using. With communities is you know often advised when you know possible now that can be difficult because well what's difficult about that is who represents a community and who should be the spokesperson for the community because it's spokesperson people who come forward don't necessarily represent all the interests in the community and they're not necessarily representing the community fairly in a way. So that does need to be taken into consideration but consultation is important also giving credit and visibility so the cultures are recognised when they're taken from and that means sharing benefits as well doesn't it so not just financially but through all the forms of support and really engagement should be like collaboration not consumption because a lot of cultural appropriation is about commercialisation or you know where it feels like a culture is being made into something that will generate income and it doesn't feel like a fair exchange so it is about reflection consequences on the dose of the recognition of you know how. Yeah so you know I had a I had a visual in my head of like putting different items on a sales block you know like you stand there and the people are doing a bidding war for the different things and you know I guess if I look at it kind of a in a way going back to colonisation slavery all those things it all all those visual kinds it came into my mind at the same time of of what is happening and so you know one of the biggest things that I'm sure you've been seeing just across the globe but also here in the US of course a big thing with our exchange of leadership that had that happened earlier this year that it only you know emphasize even more of what has I guess always been there but now it is front and center you can't really ignore it about all the different things that have been I guess taken from around the world from that being like you know the diamonds that are in the royal family for London to the art that is in in museums to the sculptures to I guess even if you would I've been to the I'm sure we've been to the Vatican all the things that looks like the Vatican reminds me of like a dragon's den that's what I thought about when I went there and it was so it was so much it was just obsessive like I almost thought I on a on a you know not to make make light but I was thinking of you know for a interior designer or an organizer they would be like we've got to get rid of most of this it was just it was just so much stuff and I was just thinking about all the history all the plunder all the different things that are in here and it was just like it was overwhelming and so and so when I think about that and all these cultures the things have been taken from and they're they're and even the the histories have been so a twisted I guess how do we start unraveling these these I don't know what we should say I I guess I would say these these horrible things that happened that took away you know I got you'd say people's cultural identities, how do we start unraveling them in a society that has been fed, I guess you'd say lies about how things are? Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean, unraveling has begun. This is what, you know, where people are much more aware, really, about some of these debates. And if we look at, you know, when you go traveling and you see in, like if you're looking at museums or galleries, they're much better at recognising origins and ownership of cultural materials they showcase, you know, at one time that they were unreflective. And, you know, so repatriation has occurred. And museums have, you know, they have clear agendas now and to provide clear and transparent information, like provenance information, to contextualise objects within the histories of, you know, colonialism, not just outside of them. And as I said, repatriation. So I think that's, you know, one salient way in which some of the damage is being tackled. It's an ongoing, it's an ongoing battle and it's also a process. It will never end, you know, there's always going to be cases of, you know, cultural appropriation. And I think it's about recognising, like we recognise, you know, or should recognise racism and inequalities. It's recognising the fact that, you know, something we talked about, earlier, which was about the history of colonialism or empire and the impact that has on the world. And how that means that some cultures have been erased and they've not been treated fairly. So it's about trying to rectify the wrongdoing and to learn lessons about going forward. But the important thing, Anne-Marie, is that it has to be collective, you know, it's not, you shouldn't just be about scholars working in this area or individuals who feel, you know, interested in these debates. In the same way with environmentalism, unless we're all on board and we all see the damage, then, you know, we have to be tackled elistically and collectively. That's one way of looking at, you know, addressing the problem and making up, you know, losses and endeavoring to make changes in the future. I mean, I go back to sort of the time in the 90s, if you like, when there was a lot less awareness, you know, so people have greater awareness now about the impact of colonialism. And so it's about looking forward and making the right choices now and taking responsibility. Yes, and then, you know, since you are lucky enough to work with the up and coming generation, I guess they're, I don't know if they're Gen Z or whatever comes after Gen Z these days. But in that, I guess, what are you seeing as a professor when you're working with the younger people when they look at their cultural identity? Like, you know, I'm a little bit removed. I have a young one, but too young to be at university. But, you know, what I've been seeing, I guess, or hearing is that like for young people, I guess it's just a mix of how they see the world. Like half of them are like, I give up, we're going down anyways. Or they're just very angry about everything. So I guess when they're faced and also right now, you know, I guess statistically they are coming up and being the most diverse people that we know that have been around that we know of, and I guess you would say in modern times, that you have people now that are, you know, I'm, you know, they're half Asian and then, you know, they're also, you know, German and then they're, you know, a little bit, you know, Nigerian or something. They have these like unusual and different different mixes that you're like, okay, how did that happen? But, you know, and so because of that, they've got to view the world a little bit differently than, you know, generations before. So what have you been seeing, I guess, from your students? So I think across generations, and you're right in identifying that diversity is case, so younger generations are more accustomed to diversity around them, you know, and their understanding of, their themselves even and other people and other cultures, they're much more aware because of globalization and the diversity of say their neighborhoods or things that they watch on television, the music, they consume. And, you know, as I said within their own identity, the, you know, gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity or other aspects. And I think the, the tree identity is more fluid in hybrid, expansive even. So they're less interested in fixed boundaries and I'd say that, you know, university students are just younger people in general and more comfortable with ambiguity because they've grown up in a world that's much more diverse. So this, you know, is obviously like a positive force because it encourages cross-cultural understanding. But only provided that is paired, like with awareness of, you know, the kind of power, power dynamics. So there's that diversity piece, if you like, but also we've got to remember that young people are more accustomed to using kind of social media. And what we see sometimes that can happen on social media is that there's an uptake of interest in, you know, fads or something that, you know, goes viral or is new on the market. So they are the kind of group that are sort of more responsible for examples of cultural appropriation because they're much more exposed because of their use of social media. So it kind of, it works in both ways. Yes, and I was, you know, and because, you know, just thinking about young people and not, you know, there are young people of course thinking deeply, but they're, you know, there's this need of obviously finding out who they are belonging. A whole bunch of things that happen as you're, you know, going from adolescence to adulthood. And so in that, I guess it's a, I guess a good thing, of course, that they have this understanding of diversity that is different than past generations, but also with that, does it become, or I guess should we even be concerned do some of the things become diluted. And what I mean by that is like, because they are diverse, they're like, I'm going to take a little bit of this and a little bit of that. For instance, like, just because I'm here in California, like, I'm going to make it spanglish, which is a mix of English and a mix of Spanish. And I just, you know, this word may or may not exist, but it sounds all right to me. Right? Or, or because they're young, they're like, and it's cool. Yeah, yeah, that's quite great. Yeah, yeah. So I think young people, because of their experimentalism, because they're more, you know, exploring their identities, they can often, you know, be insulated and, and, and, you know, not kind of reflect really on what this might mean in, in, in a kind of wider sense, really, if they're, you know, thinking about it in, in relation to themselves. So, you know, and that's social media has turned cultural trends into global, global kind of movements, almost like, you know, overnight. And, and so it's about kind of maintaining maintaining that balance and not kind of oversimplifying complex issues. And maybe that's where young people need to be guided more about, you know, what they can, or shouldn't be wearing to festivals. Because we hear that, you know, Coach Ellis uses an example, just where we see, you know, a, a ray of, you know, festival goers wearing native American headdresses and bindi's and, you know, having their hands, you know, tattooed with tribal markings or henna. And, you know, they want to enjoy themselves. They want to kind of mix with other people, but, it's, you know, that they're more exposed to these kind of different, different cultures and different aspects, but they have to sort of, really, I think it comes down to education. So, they're education, they've been and education in different ways. I think at school level, education. is more diverse, but it's about dialogue. I think that will change things across generations and it's always about dialogue and it shouldn't be about closing things down and saying, oh, you can't wear this or you can't do that because that doesn't really explain where it's wrong, or it doesn't explain the harm it's been doing. So that needs to be really promoted as a way of tough-tank some of the issues we've been talking about. Yeah, so another, this is kind of a little aside that just popped up in my head, but I was thinking through the history of colonialism, people coming to America, people as they were growing up in these cultures being told, you know, what they knew was the incorrect way and they should go for more of a Western way. And so all of that was really drilled into people's heads. And then now, do you think that we've come to a point in society, I guess, that people are instead of, I would say in the past, they were working to hide their culture and assimilate that now people are finding that either one, this is my theory, either that they realize it's exhausting to try to squish yourself into a box or they realize, okay, that wasn't working anyways and when now I look back, actually the other way would have served me better. I guess what have you been seeing like with people who are not necessarily young or but maybe the parents of these students? So I think when I was growing up, as I said, it wasn't it wasn't really multicultural and it was, you know, the the area I grew up, it was quite monolithically white. So there was this fear about being seen to, well, just feeling vulnerable, you know, for being to. But I think with young people and mixed societies now, they're more aware of other cultures, even if they might not be accepting of that there is much more awareness of cultural styles. And because of that, I think younger people are taking more pride in their own cultures, you know, in so it's different for first generations because I think first generation migrants often were focused on the practicalities of settling into a culture and so feeling like they had to suppress aspects of their ethnic culture in order to fit in because they, you know, they kind of primary goals were about, you know, existential questions about sort of getting jobs, you know, providing for their children and then future generations. Young people now can, they can enjoy their cultures more and celebrate their cultures more openly because because of diversity. And so that's, you know, kind of different in a way. And I think as well, there is more, there is more of a kind of pick and mix sense of culture as well where they'll take, you know, aspects of their own style and combine it with something else, combine it with something else because their cultural influences are much more disparate as well. So I think that's how we see that, that those aspects of, you know, hybridity or culture being much more heterogeneous, it's not just one thing, it's that ongoing sort of fluidity. But in general, I think what I've seen with younger generations is less of that need to sort of, you know, be westernised or, you know, there is much more equality in some senses, of course, not in others. But so the pressures for ethnic minorities is less about being westernised or being Americanised and it's about cultural pride, you know. So young people are often very, you know, interested in their own cultures and they're able to, you know, they're able to explore these more readily than say the older generations. Yes, and one of the biggest things that sits with all of this is, of course, you know, the issue of power. And so do you feel that the power dynamics, either, I guess globally, do you feel that they're going to be making a big, a big change than what we've seen in the past? So the power dynamics have shifted, you know, as you were talking about kind of the politics in, you know, in the States, for example, or, you know, even in the UK, I think we're out, you know, there's lots of contradictions. So on the one hand, you know, there's more awareness of diversity on the other hand, there's a return to the far right. So it's, you know, difficult to predict what's going to happen in the future. But clearly, colonial history is still, you know, is out the heart of all of this. I mean, it's through colonialism, you know, colonialism has brought people together, but it doesn't always sit well. And I think power is, you know, something that's relational, it's going to, but I think these debates are going to continue really there, ongoing power balances and the impact of colonialism about what's valued and what's not really. Yes, I feel that we are, we're at, I guess, I would say a crossroads a little bit, in that we decide that we're going to either continue down the same path, which is what I would say the side that we have blinders on. And we just pretend that everything like everything is, uh, you know, normal or happy, or if you ever saw the legos, everything is fine. And the legos, to me. But, um, but I don't think I, this is just a feeling I have deep in my toes. I feel that, um, that that the, the blind, the blinders on is not going to work anymore. And, um, and, you know, and I'm saying that just because of the technology that we have, and because, you know, just as you just, uh, describe the young people, they don't fit in the boxes that used to exist. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And there's many more options for them and there's, you know, there's cultural integration, there's cultural diversity, but there's also like a bad clashes. You know, people are, you know, still sort of, uh, the heart of this is, uh, high rock, you know, issues about hierarchy and also identity. So, um, it's going to be an ongoing conflict, but we move, you know, in some sense, we're moving in one direction and then taking 10 steps back as well. So, it's that kind of odd sort of contradiction. I feel that in the UK, you know, um, people, when I was growing up, people were much less aware about other cultures, they're much more aware now. They're not necessarily as tolerant or the tolerance is, is different, you know, so it's, um, there might be less, um, over examples of, you know, instances of racism, but there's microaggressions and, um, there's a lot of dissension at the moment and, um, so there's a lot more understanding. I mean, people have often said, haven't they, that, uh, racism's a result of ignorance, you know, but there's a lot more knowledge, um, and awareness, but there's still a lot of racism and there's still a lot of intolerance to, to other cultures. Um, and so, you know, it's taken a, certainly like, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I wouldn't have predicted where we are today. It does feel like, um, there's very different, you know, strands at work. Um, and so it will be sort of interesting to see how, how things play out really in, um, in politics and, you know, expressions of sort of national identity and those kind of questions. Yeah, so I would say if I had to dub the time, I would say this is a, the futuristic 19 system in 1960s. Um, because that's what it feels like, um, and people are pulling and directions, but now I would say it's a little bit scarier as you were, uh, um, saying that, you know, we used to think it was ignorance, but now with the touch of your finger, you can know a whole lot of stuff. Um, so then, and now we have to just think that it is, um, unfortunately, maybe power and, and just. the choices, I guess, if I would have to say it's definitely a need for, or maybe it is just completely power in a way or fight because we also have this in the back of our heads, a Doomsday theory coming because of the planet and where it is from climate and politics and wars. So yes, I guess it is very much like the 1960s wars and politics and everything like that. I think people with migration, I mean saying the UK context, people forget why South Asians came to the UK or why people from other parts of the globe, you know, with Africa or elsewhere, you know, and the rhetoric about migrants taking jobs, but they forget that what that time was about and how migrants were invited to build the UK and to take part in that endeavour. So there's a blame game about, you know, in different countries we have too many migrants, why migrants here, there's not enough understanding about the history of why people, you know, are scattered around the globe the way they have been. And the consequences of colonialism, you know, the consequences of, you know, certain empires conquering the world and then, you know, looking at where we are now really. So it's that long history, it's not enough to just take a snapshot of what's going on now. We have to look back and we have to sort of take responsibility and it's problematic if our leaders can't take responsibility or they don't view it that way. But I think this is why cultural appropriation such an interesting debate because it really takes us to the centre of these issues. It's not just about, you know, stuff, is it? It's about identity and that's really at the heart of all of this. Yes, and yes, indeed. I guess I want to talk a little bit about your book before we close. So you have an upcoming book that will be coming out, I guess, in, is it 2026? Yeah, hopefully, or if not early 2027. So it's very soon, really, so hopefully next year. Okay. And this book is called Reclaiming the Debate on Cultural Appropriation. And so actually, that's probably an excellent time. I know, of course, you're working with your publishers for to come out because of course, you know, we didn't know we had our ideas, of course, of what 2025 might look like. But now that it's become a global conversation, it's the perfect timing for your book. Yes, yes, indeed. And this book as well as takes me back to the early days. So it's like it's a lived experience of what it felt like to have aspects of my culture taken and what I, you know, my reflections on it now. So it's, you know, coming full cycle, if you like, it's not just me looking at the subject from an academic point of view, but it's within my personal history. And that is, you know, so it brings lots of different aspects together because it's not just a academic interest to me. It's also part of my heritage, you know, thinking about my kind of identity as someone kind of who's grown up in in the UK and is British, but also, you know, South Asian as well, it's all the different aspects coming together. It's, you know, going to add to scholarship in the field. And it's, you know, it's a popular subject area. Lots of people are writing about aspects to do with cultural appropriation. There's, you know, still very topical in, you know, media discourse. We only have to, every week, there's a new story, isn't there? And they're in the papers or in social media, you're about an incident that's kind of, that sparked off something connected with cultural taking. So, I hope it kind of provides an interesting commentary. Yes, I'm sure, like, I believe that it's probably going to be the hot topic and maybe even can do a serious book tour for next year, the following year, because I believe we're going to face a lot of questions in this area. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, and I'd love to do that. So, and then to promote this really important conversation really about cultural appropriation, and it's been really great to, you know, address much of that with you today. Yes. And then my last question for you before we close, and this one is, of course, I always call these my pageant, beauty pageant type of questions that are all about hope. But if you could shift one thing about the global conversation on cultural appropriation, what would that be? Gosh, that's a big question. I think one thing it would be, I'd just focus from individual blame to collective responsibility. Very often it's about, you know, the whole idea of, you know, cancel culture or, and that closes discourse down. It closes we need to have dialogue and there is collective responsibility not just for people who, you know, it's not about this person's wearing this and this is wrong and so they shouldn't be. And then, you know, the recriminations, we all have that sense of, and should have that sense of collective responsibility. And this collective sense is tied to broader systems of inequality. So, I think if we frame a conversation around shared responsibility and learning rather than, you know, blame, will be halfway there to opening the daughter more understanding empathy and ultimately more ethical cultural connections. So, that's how what I'd like to shift. I'd like to sneak in also what I said at the beginning, I'm ready. The integral need to focus on power imbalance in cultural appropriation and identity politics as key to the debate. There's, you know, there's a lot of commentators who too easily lose a sense of understanding about this. So, that needs to be brought to the fore as well. Yes, we have a lot of work ahead of us. And I'll live. That's an understatement, I believe. Thank you, Professor Ariah, for your time and insight. You can purchase Dr. Ars book, a journey to the center of self-exploring the lived experience of South Asian Psychiatrists on Amazon and Cambridge University Press by going to Cambridge University Press at Cambridge.org and look out for her forthcoming book, reclaiming the debate on cultural appropriation in the UK in either 2026 or upcoming 2027 on Amazon. If you have a passion for an unserved community, a social justice problem or want to change minds, contact Project GoodWork at projectgood.work to start your project of change today. Subscribe to our mailing list at projectgood.work/subscribe to get our episodes and log article sent to you each month. To our listeners, thanks for tuning in to Project Good, we're focused on what matters.