Global Issues Explained: Bridging Borders: Navigating Intercultural Negotiations

Welcome to Global Issues Explained, where we unpack the complexities of our interconnected world. Join us as we delve into the most pressing global challenges. This podcast is brought to you by the Master of International Business Programme at Universidad Eafit in Medellín, Colombia. Yes, we have a really special guest. He is currently doing the Master of International Business in Eafit at Turkish-German guy. I'm from Germany, I have a Turkish background, I was born in Berlin, Germany, and I studied European management in Berlin, and I decided to come to Colombia and to do my Master of International Business and I'm happy to be here with Edward and you. We are really happy to have you here for that first question. What is a German-Turkish guy doing in Colombia? Yes, I was always curious to learn about new cultures and to go out of my comfort zone, that's why I also spent six months of my life in LA in the United States. I visited high school and that's why I thought it would be a good idea to move abroad, to do my Masters. I think it's the last chance before you settle down, get married and have kids. And yeah, I've been here in September last year and it was amazing, I liked the people and then I saw a sign of Eafit as a commercial and then I looked in the degrees and the Masters and yeah and then I got in contact with Edward and he convinced me, that's why I'm here. So we have here a guy in love with culture and that's the topic of today, we are going to talk about cross-cultural negotiations, right Edward? Yeah, maybe I'm a good negotiator since I'm already here, I'm just kidding, but it's just amazing. If you are ready, I'm ready for like this record of today, are you ready guys? Yes? Let's do it. Let's get one of these podcasts. Yes and it would be the first question, really obvious question. What about the cultural shock, the cultural impact once you arrived in Colombia? When I arrived here for the vacation, obviously I didn't have that much inside of the culture, just some pieces, but when I came here for the studies I definitely realized some differences from Germany. The first example for me is that the Colombian people are not really punctual, so when I had meetings with my alumnus and my colleagues it was not easy because I've waited like 30 minutes, 40 minutes and I was really annoyed about that honestly because I'm a really punctual person and later on I realized that's not a big deal here, that can happen, that even people cannot even arrive. Once it happened that I was going to meet a friend and he didn't cancel. I was there and waiting and waiting, but he didn't arrive and he was like, "Yeah, sorry I just had a busy day, a busy day" and yeah, that was the most shocking part of it for me. I apologize, you know, that's okay. I apologize for the 10 minutes I arrived late today. But it was my fault, it was a bad communication this time. But it's really fun because I mean, Colombia's, we are not a lot of punctual, yes, I know that, but we are a little bit, there are cultures that are really un-puntual, like for instance Mexican people, they are really un-puntual, I mean 31 hours and that's it, yeah, correct. Yeah, it's totally normal. And of course, we don't want to offend anyone in here in the podcast, but yeah, I learned from a British friend, he said, "Ah, for you, it's like a guideline, it's like 10.30, but it's kind of a guideline." So that's like creating that shock. So we're talking about that cross-cultural negotiation, right? To our listeners, a little brief context, what is this, like what are the cross-cultural negotiation and where we started like talking about that culture shock? I think this topic is really important today, like nowadays because we are a globalized world and many people are doing businesses with people from other countries. And I think most of the people are not really sure how important it is, like I know a lot of people who are working with clients from abroad and at the end, and they don't take it into consideration, that the person you're doing business with has a different cultural background. So for me, it's really important because if you want to be successful for the long term, you have to understand that the person in front of you is different than you. I can't come to Colombia and expect like Edward or you, that you are having my mindset and I have your mindset. So if you have this into consideration, I think you can be successful. Is there like, or maybe you consider like a medium point, something like, "Of course I'm not going to have your mindset, of course I cannot expect you to have mine." Yes. But what about the medium point? Is it possible? I think it is. If you're open-minded and if you're not ignorant, it's totally okay and it will be totally fine. But as I mentioned before, I met a lot of people, also my friends, they are just not preparing well enough if they are doing business with these persons. So it's impossible for me to travel somewhere and to try to have a successful business if I don't take the culture into consideration. So there are so many different points for that, the communication style, the timing, like the concept of timing, like the legal and the ethical background, there are so many points you have to take into consideration. But if you're just a little bit sensitive about that, I think it will be fine. Really what you said, Ferrat, it's really important. Well, we've been trained, if you're a study management or engineer or any other discipline, you're going to be trained on several hard skills. But here we have a soft skill, we have, well, this is something really important to be developed in today's professionals. As you said before, maybe during the '80s, '90s, I don't know that much. But today, you already mentioned that it's crucial. Don't you think that people eat a little bit more often, or are you still considering that you are aware of the situation until you're there? For example, here we've been, even in the MIB, we have a class of intercultural communication. Really cool. But how much of that help our professionals to face that situation? Because normally you don't know until you're there. Yes, I had this class, actually, and it was really good. And what was surprising for me, that a lot of people were surprised about the differences. I mean, you're right, until you get to this point, a lot of people don't know about it, and nowadays the people are more open-minded because of the social media, and the younger people, they're really open-minded about that. But I still believe that there's so much things to learn about that. That's what I believe, because obviously you're in social media, you're with your friends, you talk about it, but people are different in their private life than on their jobs. That's what I believe. Like, what are those important things that we need to learn? I mean, because you said… Yeah, you mentioned like timing, communication style, year or keys, status orientation. Those are really important characteristics, but for you and your expertise, what are the most important ones, not that you mentioned? I mean, the most important thing for me is just, first of all, to be open-minded. I know a lot of people, they are not open-minded, as an example. I don't want to blame someone, but I have a lot of American friends, and when I travel with American people, they always believe they are right. Their mindset is the right one, they go somewhere and they're like, "Why are there people like that?" Which is for me, like, a little bit embarrassing, and I see this in especially Medellin more. There are a lot of experts from the United States, but they believe, I think they are here for a short time, and we don't need to adapt. We have the same issue in Germany. We have this military base from the United States, and the funny thing is that they even have their own stores, they have their own cafeterias, they don't leave the military base, they don't try to adapt. So, if you go to a country, the first thing for me is to respect the culture, to adapt. You don't need to change your character, but to respect the culture and don't try to force your culture to bring to this country. That's really important for me. That's a little bit of ethnocentric, right? Yeah. I have one last question, if possible. So, what about the cultural relativism, I mean, and this really known quote, like in Rome do as Roman do. So, what do you think about that? Like, is it necessary to do what other people do in a certain country? So you mean to copy? Yeah, something like that. The question is if I believe it is right to do what I do in my own country and other countries? Maybe. I don't like that. I mean. So, for instance, do you think that we as Colombians expect you to behave as a Colombian? I don't think so. I think what I realize in Colombia is that people are really curious about your culture, and I don't believe that Colombian people expect me to act as a Colombian. I think people here are really open-minded, obviously they have a little bias, especially like, as I said, I'm a Turkish person, but I live in Germany, and it was funny because when they told me that what they think about Turkish people, I was like, whoa, they watched too many novellas. But I think it's not good to expect that when someone comes to your country to expect them to be 100% like a Colombian person, like a German person, because otherwise we will lose our identity, in my opinion. Like everyone should also keep their identity, but be respectful. Nice. So what if we skip into the second part of this podcast, Edward? We've reached the second part of the podcast, and here we're going to be talking a little bit more about your experience. And it was a really good question, actually, that last one, that last question was really good, because with that question, we just jump into this. Your experience with the phenomenon, if I'm not wrong, and during the interview, you have also studied in other places, like more than like just Germany and then here, Colombia. What has been your experience with this phenomenon, with cross-cultural negotiation, and of course I wanted to make sure that all listeners get the main message, and it is like we're not taking negotiation only as negotiating like a container from a place to another. Not negotiation. It's part of every day's life. So what's been your experience with the phenomenon, cross-cultural negotiation? I think I had this topic in my whole life since I was born. I think it's a positive thing, and also a negative thing. I mean, positive because you learn a lot negative because you have a lot of struggles. As you mentioned, I studied in the United States, Los Angeles. I didn't have a lot of negotiation when it comes to business, but when I had friendships, it was not easy because I mean, in the high school in the United States, this is really like in the movies, like people really don't know what is outside of the United States. So there were people like, where is Germany? What is Germany? And when you work with them in the groups, it was not easy. But I think if you have a sensibility about that and you learn in these moments, it will give you more strength. So after I was in the United States, I had also a lot of people from India, from Italy, from China and in the university, it was really good because you learn from everyone. And as I told you before the podcast, I even have personal relationships with different cultures where you can adapt these strengths into the relationships. People always think that it's about business when you talk about negotiations. But we negotiate the whole day. You negotiate with your wife, with your best friends. At one point, you negotiate with your children. So I think it's very important. Nice message. A lot of people think that it is necessary to, only necessary to understand or to study cultural relativism and cultural negotiation if you are going abroad. But it's not like that. I mean, a lot of people are coming to Colombia. In Medellin, we are facing it daily. A lot of people are coming. So that's why it's really important to understand other cultures, right? Not to force our culture, but to understand other cultures in order to, I mean, to aim to a little bit of welfare, something like that. So do you think at least in Medellin we are ready or we are doing great in facing or in adapting or receiving other cultures? I mean, what I see since six months, I was really welcomed here and I never had the feeling that it's different. And I think the people are really open to be warm to new cultures. I mean, I've been in other countries where it was the opposite. And the people are really curious. They, they try to understand you. And as I said, it's not only the communication, but this is also to understand the other person. You can learn Spanish perfectly, you can learn English perfectly, but to understand the other person is not easy. But I feel the people are really open-minded and it's, it's growing. There are a lot of experts coming here, not only Americans and other persons. And I think the people really realize that's an opportunity to, to actually make a grow. You're touching a really important point in here, which is language. Yes. Yeah. Before entering here, we were mentioning that like despite you can speak the same language, sometimes just culturally, you do not communicate so well. How important is language in your experience at different places? Because like, for example, you're here in Colombia and you're just like learning Spanish. Like, well, first congratulations, like you're, you're really brave. Thank you. Yeah. Like, but, but the second, like how important is language? Is it? Yeah. Like I get from, from your speech that it's, it's more important being flexible than the language itself or how crucial it is or, or is it only the way we communicate? How do you understand language? Well, let's develop further into, into that topic. I think language is a huge part and when it comes to cross-cultural negotiations on general, you can't live somewhere without the language. I can't expect like, I know a lot of people that travel, they're like, I've been there. They don't speak English, but maybe these persons, they don't need English in their life. So I can't come to Colombia and expect that everyone speaks perfectly English. Also, I believe if you want to be a part of the culture and the community, it is good and it's important. I don't speak so good Spanish, but I, since I learned more, I feel more adapted to the people when I'm with friends, I hear the words, I can understand more. And yeah, I think the language is a huge part. Yeah. I mean, it's fun. Did you see that when you communicate to our, like our cabin recorder, you said, hola, cómo estás? And they immediately responded. It's, it's, it's a way of opening your sense. No, it's really fun because I mean, speaking English is not the same that understanding you. I mean, we can both speak English and be, we cannot understand each other. That would be a possibility. So for instance, the common jargon, I mean, people, you might be studying or learning Spanish and you cannot understand someone saying, because it's really unique in Colombia and a specific place. What about that common jargon? Is it, I mean, a lot of, it's really common here in Medellin or what about that? You know, words that maybe do not understand the same everywhere, but it's still Spanish. What about that? You mean like slang? Yes, slang. Yeah. I have had a difficulty because there is a word in Medellin. I'm not sure if I can say it here, but I will just do it like chimba, chimba. So someone told me to say that in a combination with another word. And then I realized this word doesn't mean always a good thing. So I wasn't a trap, but I learned 100% depends on the context. Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, you've never heard about that word before. No, no. You come in Medellin and everyone says. Everyone, everywhere, every time. Yes. Yes. Definitely. In negotiation, just as in life, while you're speaking to someone, I mean, like communication is a really good part, but not like only about what you're saying, but what hasn't been said, body language, a lot of things, like for example, proximity. Have you experienced something different because you have a particularity and it's because you're German slash Turkish or Turkish slash German, proximity, body communication. How have you experienced that too? In Kolginga, we're really into touching each other, right? Yes. And we're really warm. Is that why you're touching? No. No. I would say when it comes to personal things, I'm more Turkish, but when it comes to business, I'm straight like a German. So I have a good balance, I believe. But when I came here, I realized because you said the things you don't say, I'm someone who's really like, I can sit you in the room with you and for one hour, I wouldn't talk. There's no problem for me. When I went with Columbia friends or like when I went out with someone, when I didn't talk or I didn't write, the person thing, something's wrong with me, like, is everything okay with you? Are you mad? I was like, no, I'm not mad, but right now I don't have anything to talk. So the people here, like, I could say, Colombian and Turkish people are really similar. They like to talk, they're really passionate, they like to touch, they like to give kisses. And when you compare to Germany, it's like the people, if you go out and just in Berlin especially, you go walk the street and there's a person, you will say, oh, good morning, how are you? You will look like to you, what do you want from me? Are you going to rob me? And for us, that would be rude, right? Not to say that. The occasion is sometimes when I go somewhere in the beginning, I go to buy something, they're like, hola, como estas? And I was not sure, should I answer like, good or do I say no, good, how are you? Does he really want to know how I am? So it was confusing for me. Yeah, and probably yes, probably if you start telling them your story, they're going to listen to it and ask you for more. And once again, before going into the third part, he's not only about going to other places, people is coming from the outsides and understanding that this is really crucial. Edward, let's go into the third part of this podcast. Third part, it's about like, where are we going with this? I mean, here in Colombia, we receive a lot of people and at the beginning of the podcast that you said to the current trend of globalization, well, it's kind of fun because in some way, we are having this, this trade war, it created more tariffs, but people is moving beyond borders like freely. So how important is going to be this for the future? You just mentioned like really important for the future and current globalization trends for your future projections, for instance, how do you feel to face future cross-cultural negotiations? Of course, like based on what you said, you feel comfy, but also where are we going? Like the rest of the world with the globalization trends. How also cross-cultural negotiations like can be really good for the current trade war? I mean, I'm just like, and if you allow me, I mean, we are really into and it is really known that we are like into a de-globalization speech, right? So what do you feel about this in terms of the future? Are we going to feel more pressure or are we going to be free in terms of cultural negotiations and so on? I think it depends a lot of politics, obviously. I mean, if you look in the world, many countries, they're shutting down, they're crossing borders and people always get influenced by politics if you read the newspaper and will do something with your mind. But at the end, I believe it's just part-time. I don't think in the long term, it will be like that. And I think in the long term, we will be good again and it will be an important topic because people will move abroad again. People will work abroad again and still people are going to travel and live in different countries and I think it's going to be good and it's going to be developing, I think. You know, I remember a really tough sentence from a Mexican friend and he said, "Ah, they are like closing the borders. They are putting huge walls, so we just created high stairs and we just jump in." Well, that was tough, but it's about what you are saying, Fira. Like, of course, people continue moving and you cannot just totally stop that. There's a lot that you do not control. So a really important topic for the future. And now that we're taking that line, so how do you see it also in that political sense? I mean, a really important topic, but how much of that politicians have learned? I'm trying to kind of interact with you. I think nowadays, a lot of politicians are populists. What you can see as an example in Trump. It's more important to be successful in their own country, what he's doing now. And these politicians, I believe, they don't see the bigger picture. Like, as an example, the tariffs and the things that he's doing and trying to force countries to buy products from the US, it doesn't make sense for me because I believe every country has their positive side and the negative side. No country has only positive sides. You can get the best cars from Germany, but you can get the best coffee from Colombia. Why is it not, why is it that hard to negotiate together and that everyone wins? And that's a lack nowadays, which was before, not like that. I mean, the last year were better. But there are other influencing things I believe are the migration. In Europe, we have a lot of migration and the politics are using that for propaganda. But I am someone who is looking to the glass more full than empty. So I believe everyone, every culture, every person can give a positive thing for other countries. How do you consider, maybe, how important do you see the knowledge or the skill of cultural understanding on politicians and if they are currently having them? Like, for instance, sorry I interrupt, but did you see like Donald Trump using an English translation for English? I mean, there was an Indian guy speaking in English and the guy used a translator. I mean, it's not in my native language and I perfectly understood what the Indian guy was saying, but he used a translator. I mean, like that is questioning the cultural responsibility. So I believe from the last point, they are not good politicians too, who have this mindset and this cultural responsibility. And I think if you pick five or six people from the university, we will do a better job than them. Honestly, I'm not an arrogant person, but it is like it is. There are so many more, there's so much more potential for these politicians. And I don't think, which is hard to understand, these people have so much power, but they don't have this knowledge, which is not good. And because you mentioned the translator case, that's what I said before, is like if you have a girlfriend. I can say to her in English, I love you, to a Spanish person or a Colombian person. But I believe if you say it in the mother language, like te quiero is going to make a difference. And it's the same in negotiations. That's why language is really important too. And you mentioned another important thing, which is cultural awareness. Sometimes I mean, it's quite fun because like they've been trained for that cultural awareness too. They have a whole team training them, but maybe in some cases, that also part of the strategy that they are thinking in their negotiation. And they were selected to work into a multi-cultural scenario. I mean, that's the main reason. So Fira, please. Is this global issue shaping our future for better or for worse? It depends. It depends. Depends on the politics. Depends on the people. If people are aware of that, if politicians are aware of that, and if we are keeping being globalized like that, and people take this into consideration, I think it will be positive. Definitely. Like, I see many people like you and Edward who knows about that, and there are universities like the AirFit, and they are teaching that as well, by the way. Free promotion, by the way. We'll talk about that later. No. Yeah, I think it depends. If people learn about that and people are not being ignorant like some people are, then it will be really good. But I hope definitely it's going to be positive because we are so lucky that we have this possibility to be wherever we want. I'm now in Colombia. Like 10 years ago you asked me, "I will move to Colombia and study here." I wouldn't believe that. Or grandfathers or the people before they didn't have this luxury. And I said, "Every culture you learn, every language you learn is for me like you read a new book." Yes. And it will have to be shape you correctly. You're never going to be the same. Yeah. Never going to be the same. It will always be good for you. 10 years later you will look back and thankful that I did it. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Hedro, for being here in this amazing episode. As we journey to the conclusion of this podcast, I want to remind our listeners that the focus will be on your perception of this matter. Thank you for joining us on this journey to understand and address the critical issues shaping our world. Remember, together we can make a difference. Tune in next time for another enlightening episode of Global Issues Explained by the Master of International Business Programme at Universidad de Afid in Medellín, Colombia. Global Issues Explained, Empowering Minds, Shaping a Better World. Thank you.