Giving The Enemy No Foothold with John Eldredge

[MUSIC] Welcome back to the Exorcist Files. We hope you have been enjoying the latest round of dramatic cases. And just to keep the good times rolling and keep you guessing, just what will they put out next, we are excited to announce that in the coming weeks, Father Martin's will be offering a Lenton retreat. Well, a Lenton audio retreat on the Exorcist Files. Now, in addition to weekly content in a multi-part series, Father will offer spiritual meditations for the season and show just how Lenton spiritual warfare are in many ways inexorably intertwined. So, look for that in the coming weeks. Today we welcome a best-selling author, a speaker, and someone who has discipled millions through his books on identity, prayer, and the love of God. Please welcome a man who is, quote, wild at heart and always working to try and make, quote, all things new. Please welcome to the Exorcist Files, John Eldridge. [MUSIC] Welcome back to the Exorcist Files, the show we tell demons where to go. Guys, I'm so excited today because we get to interview a long time spiritual father and hero of mine. Now, he doesn't know that he's a spiritual father of mine because he lives hundreds of miles away from most of my existence, but his books have discipled me. In fact, they've discipled people all over the world. He is a best-selling author. He is a mental health professional. He's a trove of wisdom and is evidenced by his long silver mane of salt-red and hair. He is also a Richard Branson stand-in. Please welcome John Eldridge to the show. Ryan, I'm delighted to be here. I really am. And I love, I love, love, love the discipleship heart that you have and the tack that you take on this. So, leading people deeper into the life of Jesus. It's beautiful. Well, thank you. It's a weird role. I mean, people always ask me, did your career counselor have a form that you filled out? And it said, Protestant, Catholic, exorcism, podcast host. And that really wasn't on the available careers when I was in high school. And so, I had, who knows. But actually, maybe this is a good question for you. As you know, a man with some wisdom, a little salt in the beard, et cetera. Do you look back now and have, like, do you marvel at where you are and what God did? Was there any inkling of who John Eldridge was going to be when you were a kid? No. Well, I mean, you can look back, of course, and see the hand of God, right? I mean, hindsight is 2020. It's the same goes. When you're in it, you don't have the clarity, right? You're just asking God to lead you and guide you. And I just, as a young, so I came to Christ during the Jesus revolution. And people who have seen that film kind of understand what this 70s was all about. And countercultural movement and hippies and drugs. And that was, both day, see my wife and I, Southern California, that movement was going on. So we, I had a pretty radical conversion to Christ. And I knew I wanted my life to be about him and about his kingdom. But had, yeah, I had no idea what the circuitous path I would take to kind of wind up where we are today. Well, that's a therapist, but then actually more into the realm of spiritual warfare, like who signs up for that course. Yeah. Well, it's like, hey, I think I'd like 10,000 hours at that. Yeah. I know. And yet it was so normal in the early church. And we had a guest today, share that, yeah, I was part of your catacumin of joining the church. You had someone walk with you and there was like multiple days of exorcism prayer prior to entering the church. It was just assumed. You've been in Rome. You probably picked something up. It's exactly, well, and even still I went to a beautiful baptism in the Eastern Orthodox church last year and what they go through and the, you know, the renunciations that they make prior to their baptism. I'm like, whoa, right on guys, like that'll get a lot done. It won't get everything done, but that will get a lot done. That's renunciation of the EO one confession of sin, renunciation of opening any doors to him that sort of thing. I thought, wow. And of course, that's, that was our tradition, right? It's all been practically lost here in the late modernity. Oh, absolutely. Well, so you mentioned the Eastern Orthodox. So let me start us off as we always do on an ecumenical note and I correct me if it's wrong, but I always like to give our guests a chance to praise the other side, if you will. But did I read correctly that you do have a tie to the Catholic church in that in Slovakia, your book is published? Did I read by a Catholic monastery or it's a, it's a bestseller in Slovakia? Oh, these are dear friends of ours. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. Yeah, we have some dear, dear friends who published many of our books in Slovak, but it's through the redemptorist monastery. I've been there, stayed there, spoke there. We have many, many, many dear, our closest friends in the world are Catholic and my wife was raised Catholic. We have a deep affection, affinity, respect for, and this probably isn't today's podcast, but I am a bit of a mystic actually. We can talk about the re-enchantered worldview. We probably aren't. Sure. Yeah, but I love Teresa of a villa. I love John and the cross. I love the mystics and read them and teach them regularly. So yeah, there's a great deal of respect and affection and deep appreciation for my Catholic brothers and sisters. I was just in Slovakia this year actually and so it's good to know that had I been with you, I wouldn't have made it down the street without being stopped. It sounds like you are the Slovakian celebrity that we all wish we were. Well, it's beautiful to see what God has done there and through a number of countries with our work in cooperation with the Catholic Church. That's amazing. Also, I thought I read somewhere too that you have a rhythm of prayer that is built into your ministry and did I read that you have Bell's toll at 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. and everyone everywhere stops and prays in the sort of like monastic experience. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, we do. Yeah, we just discovered years ago that if you do not have daily practices which help you out of the madness and just the chaos of what would be any normal person's day, you're not going to make it. You're not going to live deeply situated in Christ. So we installed the monastery bells. They go off at 10 and 2 and it's beautifully disrupted because meetings, you know, 10 and the meeting starting, you know, people are having conversations in the hallway and then it all goes off and we seek Christ. It's beautiful. I love that. I think I need to install that. Maybe there's an app we can do that, right? We're just at 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. a bell goes off and it's time to pray. So yeah, that's awesome. Well, I know to obviously our show centers in spiritual warfare and we so appreciate you coming on to share some of your experiences. I wanted to double click on something because it sounds like early on in your spiritual journey, you did bear witness to the reality of spiritual warfare and it seems like you got to actually see which I know if this was hindsight or at the time you were convinced of this, but you actually had a dear friend experience what you said was, you know, clearly demonic manifestation. I think you're on the woods, which I guess that doesn't narrow it down. You're John Eldridge, but is that? Holy smokes, Bell. You do your homework. That is an ancient story. Yes. It's been disequipped me. So this actually goes back to your previous question of did you kind of have a sense of what God was doing with your life? So I was a deeply thirsty, spiritually hungry young man. It raised in kind of a classic, agnostic, American home. Like we had good values, but there is, I'd never been to church. I'd never read the Bible. I'd never had the Bible read to me. Never had the sacraments. I began to seek God in the only ways I knew how, which if you were in LA in the 70s was LSD and peyote and mushrooms and that sort of thing. And we would go out into the desert, but we were honestly, we were actually seeking God. We were looking for the meaning of life and we were looking to connect with the spiritual realm. But unfortunately, hallucinogens open you to the demonic, which by the way, it concerns me for the, you know, as a therapist, I'm concerned about the current use of hallucinogens for the healing of trauma, et cetera. I have some deep reservations because it does open, it opens your spirit and it opens your soul to the unseen realm. So yeah, it happened. I watched a friend of mine become possessed. His body was being thrown around like a rag doll. I saw the terror in his eyes, the pork eye. And it was a series of two experiences like that out in the desert, the second one. I think God actually sent angels. So we're out in the middle of nowhere, man. And these two rangers pull up in a truck. We have never seen rangers where we were in the desert. Nobody ever patrolled where we were. And these guys walk over and go, hey fellas, you know, what are you boys doing? And all this paraphernalia and all this, you know, drug stuff is on the table there. And so they arrest us, which was absolute rescue of God through us into the 29 Paul's Sheriff's Station, which was a pretty freaky place to be with a bunch of drunk Marines, sleeping on a cot through the night. And in the next day, I knew I'm like, okay, we have discovered the spiritual realm. And that's not God. I'm like, I don't know Him yet, but I can tell you, that's the dark side. And I am not looking for the dark side. I want a truth, I want a goodness, I want a redemption. And so I was very aware, it was like the old bullwink of those of you who are particularly, oh, we remember the old bullwink of cartoons. You know, what should we pull a rabbit out of a hat? And it's a roaring lion. I'm like, holy smokes, we found the spiritual realm, but this is a God. And I think that that did prepare me for a re-enchanted worldview as I came to Christ. You know, I was much more open to the unseen realm. And then, you know, if you are, then God is delighted to train you in the unseen realm if you're willing to accept the things that you guys talk about. - Some curious, you're out in the desert, right, which already sets the stage, 'cause obviously the ancient church, you know, the narrative was the demons live in the desert. And were you all just engaging in recreational activity? We'll call it and then did he suddenly, did something kick this off? Or was it simply, obviously, we'll get into this. It doesn't seem that generally demons just, you know, show themselves for no reason. But do you remember, was there anything particular that set this off, or was this just the drugs and just hanging out at night? - Yeah, we weren't just recreational users, though we were incredibly naive. But we were, there was like a spiritual quest and we would sometimes build sweat lodges and do that kind of thing. We didn't on this particular night, actually, it happened. You know, there are a number of reasons why foul spirits gain access and why they will sort of reveal themselves. And some of that has to do with the vulnerability of the individual. You know, more people are vulnerable than others based on childhood trauma, based on spirituality, based on the sin. So I think there was just an open door there for, and how God protected me. I mean, why I wasn't the guy was just the grace of the living God. - Amen. So, and also I do remiss of I didn't ask, were you convinced the park rangers were angels just by the sheer rarity of a sighting of park rangers as they? - Or you know about angels at the time, but looking back on it, unlike we have never seen rangers before and we've never seen them sense out there. So they could have been human angel. I mean, you could, you know, God uses human agents to do his work in the world. But we were rescue. It was what we needed in that moment. - Okay, man. All right, so John, let me ask you, it's so interesting because I've known you in the context and I definitely want to get into identity and some of the lies that we believe and that being one of the main assaults the enemy, you know, throws at us. But I'm curious, just in general, your experience of spiritual for what do you think that church is a whole misses on this topic? And what can we, maybe better way to put this, what are we missing on this topic and what are you passionate about kind of showing people? - Well, let me first tell a little bit more of the story of how we got into this. Because at this point in our lives, you know, we have a law of 10,000 hours with this stuff. And we have just had to deal with so much. But I came in to the door as a therapist and anyone, anyone who gets into the helping professions, you're going to pretty quickly run into human brokenness that the kingdom of darkness is now taking advantage of. And even as a young therapist, I would have, for example, women come into my office and I could tell within five seconds that they had been victims of childhood sexual trauma because I could feel the dark spirits around them saying, "Use her, she's available." You know, so this is part of what the kingdom of darkness does. It's still, they'll draw people, you know, it's like the junior high, you know, kick me, you know, on the back sort of thing in the hallway that they will draw people to do to you what they're trying to do to you, to continue the trauma or the rejection or the alteration, the unholy alteration. So it was through the door of therapy, it was through the door of working with clients and getting into the war for the human heart. You see, that's the beauty of this, is that the war for the human heart is the epicenter of the war in the world. Hebrews 116 says that God rewards those who diligently seek Him. Not only do we see this all throughout scripture, but it's been proven true in my own life, time and time again. Of course, we can't put God in a box. There's no formula to get what you want from God. But the truth is God does reward those who go after Him. In fact, I used to do this thing with my friends. We'd take seven of us in a group. And each day, we would pray for one person specifically with all of us and we'd go through the entire week until every single person had been prayed for. And then we would take inventory of what God did. None of us ever left empty handed. And it makes you wonder, why don't we do this more often? That was just a prayer group. Now, imagine a cohort of dedicated brothers and arms locked in going after Christ together. The Extrasus Files is proud to partner with Exodus 90, which brings together men all over the world to go after God together. Father Martin says it often, "If you're alone and if you're feeling isolated, that is prime time vulnerability for the enemy to go after you." So check out Exodus90.com/XFiles and get plugged into one of their challenges. Their next one is St. Michael's Lent and it starts August 12th. And they're going through the book of Daniel, one of my personal favorites. So check out Exodus90.com/XFiles for a 14 day free trial. The St. Michael's Lent Challenge starts August 12th. Check it out. Not only do we see this all throughout scripture, but it's been proven true in my own life time and time again. And each day, we would pray for one person specifically with all of us. And we'd go through the entire week until every single person had been prayed for. Now imagine a cohort of dedicated brothers and arms locked in going after Christ together. The extra sis files is proud to partner with Exodus 90, which brings together men all over the world to go after God together. Father Martin says it often, if you're alone and if you're feeling isolated, that is prime time vulnerability for the enemy to go after you. So check out Exodus90.com/xfiles and get plugged into one of their challenges. Michael's Lent. And it starts August 12th. So check out Exodus90.com/exfiles for 14 day free trial. The St. Check it out. (dramatic music) - And this was where we really began to get an education of if you get into work of human redemption, sanctification. And I mean, just starting with salvation, but the Isaiah 61 ministry of Christ, what's fascinating is in that passage, Isaiah 61, why, and I've come to heal the broken hearted and set the captives free from darkness. Literally in the same sentence, and then that's of course the verse that Jesus quotes when he steps into his public ministry in Luke 4, you cannot address human brokenness without running into the kingdom of darkness. I just guarantee you. And I'm not talking severe cases either. I mean, yes, in severe cases of trauma, but even in the most mildest, when you are looking to heal a marriage, when you are looking to reconcile families, bring prodigals home, get people out of addictive in self-destructive behaviors, you're gonna run into this stuff. That's where a lot of our training has come from. We weren't looking for an education in spiritual warfare. We were just deep in the work of human redemption, and you're gonna run into it. Okay, thank you for letting me clarify where this came from. So you asked, what do I wish the church knew? I think one of the things that is so helpful for people to understand is, you don't know what you don't know. You don't, 'cause we are all a product of our culture, right? You breathe the air of your times, you're educated by its systems, you take in its media, and so you take in its worldview. And we are all children of sort of the collapse of the enlightenment. Right, we're children of late modernity with a totally disenchanted worldview. We live with such a barren landscape of the reality that surrounds us. Both on the good side and on the bad side. Yeah, most people did not expect to run into an angel, right? Most people, most people don't even expect for God to speak to them. Comfort though, love though, like be an actual living presence in their life. So what I would say is the best thing I could offer any human being in this moment is a re-enchanted worldview. Is the understanding that you are an amphibian. You live in a physical realm and you live in a spiritual realm. And you're meant to move comfortably between the two. So for example, in the life of the mystics, actual encounters with Jesus Christ, deep, comfort and solace of the Holy Spirit, the healing of your traumas, the love of Christ. So on the good side, there's all sorts of wonderful things to be experienced and on the dark side to become more aware of. You know, when you get a migraine that's out of the blue and has no explanation behind it, before you reach for Tylenol, why don't you ask the Holy Spirit, hang on, what is this? Where is this coming from? You see, we just need a re-enchantment worldly and you mentioned the church fathers and the early traditions, right? They didn't need any convincing of this, right? Because they had a pre-modern view of reality. They lived in a highly enchanted universe where they expected angels and miracles and rich, sweet, intimate encounters with Jesus as a. No, that's a regular thing. And then dealing with foul spirits. Yeah, that's not weird. Not freaky, deaky, it's normal. You know, we'll deal with this witchcraft. We'll deal with that foul spirit. We'll deal with this curse. Yeah, sure. It was just sort of deirigur, right? So this is a question that I know many of the experts that we've had on the show get routinely asked and the answer usually is we just we don't know, but there might be hints and clues. I'm curious as a. Especially with your background as a therapist and a mental health professional, if someone came to you and said, "John, a lot of this stuff is happening. I am. Whether it's health issues or whether it's circumstances that seem to be particularly manifesting in a rather. I got maybe a scary pattern or just like you mentioned, just stuff that's happening out of the blue. What is your framework for discerning whether something is a spiritual attack is just, hey, the reality of living in a broken world or, as you mentioned, amphibious reality that we live in both. Some people have the. You know, the charism of the gift or the discernment of spirits. So that's helpful. And those gifts are distributed sort of widely through the body of Christ. So some people seem to have like a little bit more of an amphibious worldview that kind of able to pick up on things. But the book of Hebrews also talks about training your senses, talks about the mature or those who have trained their senses to discern between good and evil. So I do think we grow into a discerning awareness of it. Frankly, the more that your soul is sanctified, the more intimacy you have with Christ, it's kind of like the way they used to train people to recognize counterfeit bills was they only had them touch real bills. You know, so that when you get to the counterfeit, you're like, "Oh, that's not. If you are fairly sanctified, you can feel the evil in the realm, you can feel it in the person or against them." But now, you know, we have a very big toolbox for this stuff and for how to deal with it. Thanks to many, many people and the teaching of the church fathers and many places, I don't rely on it. I don't rely on it. If I'm suspicious, if something just seems dark or off or we ask Christ, right, my sheep hear my voice. They listen to me and they follow me. John 10, we pause and we ask. And like really simple story. Last week, I woke up in the morning, I was in a funk. I was low, I was discouraged and that is not my norm. I am a morning person. I love the morning. I look forward to my morning prayers. They're a rich part of my sanctified life. And so I'm like, "Well, I'm not sure what this is. I just. I don't feel great, but maybe once I get through my prayers, you know, I'll be okay." So I'm halfway through my morning prayers and my wife Stacy walks out. She's like, "Babe, I woke up so low today. I woke up in a funk. You just go way, way, way, way, time out." Like this is not coincidence. Something's going on. So you just get a little suspect about seeming coincidences, right? That sort of thing. Go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on." We pause and we ask. "Father, what is this?" And much to my surprise, I thought it was something else. He said, "This is the hatred of the kingdom of darkness for what you're doing in the world." I'm like, "Okay, how do we pray?" And he says, "You bring my love against it. Command the love of Almighty God against the hatred of the evil one." We did three, two, one, gone. Like, "I'm back to myself. She's back to herself. She like goes, "Thanks, honey. Bye." And she goes off and do her day. So you don't just. You know what? Thee comes to steal, kill and destroy. It's how Jesus describes it. Anything that looks like thevery, anything that looks like destruction and death, we just pause and go, "This might just be a migraine. This might just be a marital conflict. This might, you know, you might just be having a bad day." But ask. You have the help of God. You ask, "Holy Spirit, what is this? What are we dealing with here?" He will, over time, this is obviously something you grow into, he will guide you. He will help you discern these things. There. I'm curious, John. Also, in your practice and work, you know, in mental health, what are the main areas that you feel or see as seeing the people that you look back now can say, "You know what? I think that was spiritual warfare. Is it lies?" And I mean, a better context of this is in the Western Church. You know, we're so generally speaking, right? Life's hard for a lot of us, but in general, right? We are standard of living here in the West. It's amazing where we have, our main battle is not scarcity of food. I don't have to generally walk down the street and fear for my life as a believer. And so, for, I've often wondered, is the attack mainly that of the mind? Is it anxiety? Is it lies? But, you know, obviously people come to you and you counsel them. But, where are you seeing the main battlefronts for spiritual warfare in your extensive counseling career? The enemy will, for the most part, try and work unrecognized as long as he can. These guys don't want to be outed. You know, that they want to just work at such a, enough of a low grade level that they can just manipulate your thought life or whatever, you know, for a very long creative time. And so, we, yes, looking for lies, looking for assaults on your belief, looking for assaults on your confidence and the goodness of God. And we call these agreements. So, you go all the way back to this story of the Garden of Eden. The enemy is always trying to change the narrative, okay? He's always trying to manipulate the story. And so, he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not going to die. God wants you to, He wants you to have this fruit. Because, you know, then, and so, He's twisting the story just enough to sabotage, but not so much as to be like, oh, that's not true. You know, so, you know, someone who struggles within security and then He's going to whisper it, nobody loves you. Nobody even likes you. And what He's looking for is He's trying to get you to make an agreement with it. So this is spiritual warfare 101 is agreements. And the power of agreements cannot be overstated because when you come into an agreement, she doesn't love me anymore. I married the wrong person. I mean, you let that run for a year. That'll destroy a marriage. It's a very simple thing. It's an agreement that you're making with a distortion of the story or with self-identity or God's rejected you. You can never be forgiven for that. And if you make an agreement with, I can never be forgiven, you are going to be a tormented soul. Okay. In your opinion, when does an agreement actually form? Is it like the biblical definition of when you actually start operating as if that's true or is there a moment in your estimation when it's like, oh, it's just, it's so prevalent that now I can't discern between reality and that thing. And I've, so I buy, it's changed my, my, my, so now that's, I'm just, yeah, it's curious, when does it become? Because we all have fleeting thoughts. Yeah. And we reject them. But you're right. There's a point at which point we start acting as if that is true, right? Yes. Believe comes before behavior. Okay. 100% at the time. And so Proverbs 4, 23, "Above all else, guard your heart because it is the wellspring of light within you. It will take place in your internal world first." And here's the problem is that these guys are, these are ancient, very intelligent beings. And so, you know, they're not dumb. They know your story and they will use a twist of the, of the truth. They will use lies. They will use a corruption of the narrative that works with you. Okay. But usually based on pain. And so because it is a so. associated with pain, it feels true. Like no one loves you, you're such an idiot. You know, you're gonna get kicked out of this company, you're about to be fired, whatever. And there'll be some corresponding data, but there's a moment, it's in the heart, it's in the heart first. There's a moment in the heart where something inside of you goes, yep, that's true. I agree with that. I embrace that. I receive that. I swallow it. I take it in. I ingest it. I allow that to be true. And then what you were describing was, is that later down the road where it just feels like it's, you know, it becomes the lens through which you see reality. You make an agreement like nobody really likes me. And then when you get left out of a text thread, you know, of a group of friends and you're like, see, you just, then all the corresponding data seems to affirm the narrative. And then the enemy will just work at work. And he will work this. Some agreements are current. Wow, you're such an idiot. You should never have said that. You're gonna get fired. You know, some agreements are historic. And the historic agreement's, man, he'll work this stuff for 30, 40 years in your life as long as you keep, you keep gone with it. So this is 101. This is a very, very based level, a spiritual attack, but it is very effective. And here's the joyful thing. The power of breaking agreements. Oh, I mean, it'll set you free. Like this alone will set you free, right? You show them the truth. And the truth will set you free. And it's that knowing, it's that deep, you know, existential ontological, ganosco knowing, you know, that will set you free. So these agreements, I've also thought of this because we've profiled this in cases, but how often in your practice have these agreements not come necessarily from just spiritual suggestion, but from loved ones or people who inadvertently, you know, doing the enemy's business. Totally. Yes, yes. You know, half the time. Absolutely. Or even medical professionals. Right. You know, things can be set over you that almost amount to the level of a curse. Is that like a doctor, perhaps unintentionally, right? With the best of intentions, maybe saying, you know what, this never gets better. Or in my experience, like you're going to have to change how you think about your life. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. With the best of intentions, say, based on my practice, you know, you'd better go get a psychiatrist because this particular illness, you're just going to be tormented with depression. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, don't make an agreement with that. You don't know that's going to be true. And you certainly don't want to seal your fate, right? Because we have the resources of God. We have Christ in you, the hope of glory. So yeah, or parrots, come on, how many parents have said things over their children? You're never gonna amount to anything. No boys ever gonna love you, you're fat. Or, you know, and then these become our defining life agreements. Well, I was on a college recruiting trip and the coach, I will name the university of recruiting me for football. He said, I talk too much and now I'm a podcaster. So I guess not all agree. I had some things to creep in and, you know, maybe that, maybe that crept in, I could untack that with you at therapy. But yeah, I'm curious because this also brings up the question, what is your prescription for taking inventory of agreements? Because it sounds like this is not like, oh, I was open to agreements at one point. It sounds like our entire lives, we are constantly, you know, at risk of accepting things because it's being dark, it's being thrown at us. So what's John's wisdom for taking inventory and when should we stop and say, is there anything I'm, you know, wow, that got me and I didn't realize that. Yes, okay, let's first come back for a moment, too, to our worldview. You live in a love story, set in a world at war. It is a love story. The centerpiece is the love story. But you are surrounded by war, you know, Revelation 12 and he went off to make war against her offspring speaking of Mary, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus, right? So particularly if you're a Christian, you live in a world at war, folks. So yes, this is going to be part of your toolkit for the rest of your life. It's very helpful. I would say Ryan, a couple of things. One is pay attention to your inner chatter, right? Like tune in, don't be oblivious to your internal world and the kind of things that you think, see, these are the other lovely thing is to realize not every thought that goes through your head is from you. That's actually a very freeing thing for most people that go, oh my gosh, this negative talk. I mean, it's not all me. No, that's not. You have an enemy. But pay attention. But particularly notice, I'm gonna give you three things. Pay attention to the internal chatter. Notice what comes out of your mouth when you blow it, when you look in the mirror, right? I mean, some people look in the mirror and just, you're such an, you know, and I exploitive, you know, or you're just so ugly, I can't believe you. Or even self-hatred. I hate you, I just hate you. Like it'll come out of your mouth, folks, these agreements. But thirdly, and probably the most easiest test is, gee, one of the things Jesus gave us is you shall know them by their fruit, okay? You can test anything by this. Is the fruit love joy, peace? (chuckles) Is it goodness? Is it intimacy with God? Or is it discouragement, despair, fear, anxiety, producing? Is it, look at the fruit of it. And just go, wow, why am I so afraid in this relationship right now? And then again, right, you have a shepherd, the shepherd and guardian of your soul. Jesus Christ, you can ask God. Lord, what are the agreements that I'm making with my enemy right now? And we'll take people through these exercises during our retreats. Well, take people. What are the agreements I'm making against myself or against others or against you, God? What are the agreements I'm making against you? - So, I played golf two days ago and there's nothing like a few bad hits to, you say, what came out of your mouth? And I was like, oh, there was definitely some self cursing that took him, so also revisit the spiritual framework of golf. But I want to double click on something you said because anxiety, fear, like the fruits of the spirit and obviously trauma and brokenness can affect our ability to perceive those things. But I know, for example, having myself been in relationships, for example, I've had tough times, sometimes, or discerning the difference between your soul saying, hey, we don't like this, like we don't want to do, like this is not like this isn't the person or on this versus like anxiety and fear that comes from just, oh, like a bad attachment or something. Can you give us, are there any ways that we could maybe discern or look clear on what is like a, just, hey, this is earthly trauma maybe going on and then, oh, no, this is more demonic fear, et cetera. 'Cause we all, so much might have commitment issues, for example, that are not necessarily rooted in demons, but might be just the results of our unique attachment style, right? - Yeah, and again, this would be part of the re-enchant world view. You are body, soul and spirit. And all three are always beautifully interplaying all the time. I mean, you know, the neuroscience unjust joy, if you reflect on the love of God, you know, every day of your life, it literally changes your neurochemistry, rewires your brain. So you have a body that's playing into it, you have trauma that's stored in the body. So yes, you could be having literally a visceral reaction to something that's almost purely physical. But I want to, again, I want to guarantee you this, that the enemies are bullies. They will prey upon your vulnerabilities. So again, this is where self-knowledge, self-understanding is so important. You go, you know what, I have a big issue with intimacy. And so you just know that about yourself, so that when you're, you know, maybe you're in a dating relationship and someone's beginning to pursue you and you're freaking out inside. Okay, like you can go, okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm aware that this is me and this is part of my story, but I also don't want to give the enemy any room here. So it, rather than running away, rather than going to self-protection, instead I'm going to invite Christ. All right, this is Revelation 3. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door, I'll come in. Jesus, would you come into my story? Would you come into my issues with intimacy and just comfort this vulnerability right now? I'm not trying to wave a magic wand, but would you cover this vulnerability so that the enemy can't mess with this relationship or mess with my happiness? All right, so. - Okay. So John, could you share it as, you know, we're talking about agreements. And it sounds like this is something we should just be praying into every day and asking God to illuminate. Could you share maybe an example? or two from your practice, have you had a client or a patient, you know, an example of, you mentioned agreements are so powerful where you let someone, does you, when you're, is it a mix of, you're doing therapy and then also you're saying, hey, actually, it sounds like there's an agreement. Would you just repeat after me and maybe you could share an example or two from your practice and then maybe the inspiration for people that this does work? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we were actually, let me give a different example right now, because it came out of our community of faith. We had a particular brother that kept having these recurring health issues that just, they just had a suspicious nature to them because they always showed up right before joy. So any family vacation, any celebration, anything, he gets sick and then the joy has gone. It just looks like the free and there was enough of a pattern that were like, hey, why don't we pray about this? So we were trying to pray for physical healing, just, you know, laying on a fence, right, right out of the New Testament. And I could tell that it wasn't going to work. It just, you know, it just felt like brick wall. And so I just paused during that and I just asked Jesus, Lord, what's in the way? What's going on here? And Jesus said, ask him how he feels about his body. And so I'm like, gang, I'm sorry to interrupt the prayer right now, but could I just ask you for a moment, what do you feel about your body? And he said, oh, I hate my body. And I'm like, well, buddy, we're not going to be able to break in the healing of God while you're cursing your own body, right? So I want, I'm going to lead you in some, I want you to forgive your body, forgive your body for being embarrassing and for being hard to work with over the years. I want you to forgive your body and I want you to bless your body and say, I bless my body. I'm a creation of God and I bless and I don't curse my body. And I renounce cursing myself, okay? And I'm like, okay, now let's go back to healing prayer, 2001, 2002. Boom. And since then, not before a vacation, not before joy, not before, you know, like he gets sick like anybody else, but that suspicious pattern, which was actually the vulnerability was the self cursing. Well, this can take place in all sorts of other other scenarios. So I want to give hope to people are saying, hey, I have some issues that routinely come up and maybe even just standard therapy hasn't worked. And I want to consider this agreements because we talk about this on the show all the time and renouncing these doorways that the demons have gained entry to. But yeah, I'd love some inspiration here. Well, let's tie it. Let's tie in something that I think will help people as well. So something you have to understand about the enemy, the enemy is a legalist, okay? And he looks for legal claims against you. So in 1 Peter 5 verses 8 and 9, Peter says, "Be on your guard, your enemy the devil prowls around like roaring lion looking for someone to devour." Okay, so this isn't just tempt, this isn't just give you a bad day, make you eat a bag of donuts. You know, these guys are terrorists, man. They're, you know, you don't want to mess with the kingdom of darkness. You want to shut it down. Okay, we're all about shutting it down. The word there for your enemy is antidekos in the Greek. And the word means the one who seeks a legal claim against you. So sin gives the enemy a legal claim. This is why Christ had to go to the cross and in Colossians 2, he took away all of our legal indebtedness nailing it to the cross. Okay, why is this important? Well, because I was working with a marriage recently that just felt really irresolvable. And there was just constant misunderstanding tension conflict with otherwise really actually very decent people. You know, no one's throwing plates, no one's saying, "F you like, like, these are good folks." But it was irresolvable. And so I said, "Hang on a second, let's tell me about your family history." And they're like, "Well, my parents sort of were, my grandfather was infamous in fidelity, had multiple affairs on my mom." And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, the enemy will use those legal claims. He will use the sins of your forefathers and foremothers. He will use the sins of your forebarst." This is right out of scripture. So yes, you'll see sin go down through a family line. You'll see alcohol, holism, or poverty. You'll see rage or abuse go down through a family line. And it's because the enemy found a claim. Someone opened the door to him through their own conduct or cult behavior or whatever it might be, masonic stuff. And so we're sitting in a time with this couple who are just in such distress in conventional therapies, not working. And I said, "Why don't we do this? I want you to renounce the sins of your forefathers." Okay? I renounce my parents' divorce. I renounce my father's infidelity. I renounce my grandfather's infidelity. I renounce those sins. And then here is the personal agreement. I break the agreement that I'm going to be just like them. See, that's the sneaky stuff that we have no hope. It's just going to be like their story. So we renounce the sin. We renounce the agreements. And that couple is doing great. We love that. We talk about it so much in the show we've had, I mean, we've got some wild cases where fully baptized, spirit-filled, righteous Christians not engaged in any over-singed, just start having these terrible things happen and same with Tammy Comer's story. And it just wasn't until they renounced these specific things. And it's tough. And we don't want to scare people into thinking, "Oh my gosh, every problem I have is because my great grandfather was a 33rd-level Mason." Or, you know, I someone engaged in this. But it is interesting how these, there's been too many examples where things have just dramatically ameliorated after these specific prayers and not until then. And it's just it's bonkers. Yes, yep, absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned, so one area that I've always loved is do not let the sun go down on your anger. And it's a deep issue for me. We had an extra system on the show recently who shared that in a recent exorcism, the demon was taunting him saying that we don't even have to work anymore really because you Christians do our work, you gossip, you slander, you tear your own church apart. Well, yeah, they say all sorts of crap, but you go, "Man, that is so eerily true in one sense." And so I'm curious, maybe using, you just mentioned a married couple, what are the main ways that the enemy goes after marriages? And, you know, what is some practical wisdom for married couples to, in particular, to guard against the fiery darts of the enemy? Let me put this in our current context, because I think the daylight of a few things will be very, very helpful people in this current moment. So just like in any war, you will have, you know, there's ground forces, there's the, you know, air force, they'll use drones, they'll, you know, the kingdom of darkness is a highly sophisticated universe. So is the kingdom of God, by the way, you can call upon the help of the angels. Hebrews one are not all angels, ministering spirits, sent to serve those who will inherit salvation. I mean, call on the help of the angels for having sex. Right now in the world, any military campaign, any military war, they will roll out different campaigns, you know, so you'll have D-Day, and it was a particular amphibious offensive, and it required a lot of shipping and landing men on beaches. Well, that's very, very different than, you know, Bastone, which was, you know, patent and the tanks were key in winning that battle, you know, so as tanks, not watercraft. Okay, why is that relevant? Well, it's because the enemy is not always doing the same thing all the time. Right now in the world, one of the main things the enemy is well down, I'm just going to name three things right now, it will help people death, hatred, and chaos. Okay, death, hatred, chaos. And so why do I bring up death? Well, because when the enemy rolls out death into the world, death agents, death, poisons, bogs, toxins, that sort of thing, it's not just looking to cause like physical death, we're just going to make a bunch of people die. No, no, no, no, what they're looking to bring about is quote the end of things, just to end something. Okay, a ministry, a partnership, a church plant, an anniversary celebration, a trip that you save for five years. They don't care, man. I just want to bring about the end of things. And we, we have seen many, many marriages in the last couple of years when they began to recognize the way that death was trying to get in and end the marriage. What I would say is there's a campfire and then there's the gasoline. There's the campfire and the gasoline. The campfire are the real human issues. You're being selfish. You're being unforgiving. You know, whatever it may be, you are not granting them dignity. So you have real human issues in a marriage. That's the campfire. When the enemy comes in and throws gasoline on it, the bonfire is what makes it feel irresolable. And here's one way that that one woman explained it to me recently. She says it just began with ambivalence. It just began nothing dramatic. It could just begin with, I don't know, no, maybe not, maybe I'm not into this anymore. Maybe I don't want to do this. And because she's a very, very godly woman with a deep relationship with Christ, Jesus was able to say, hey, do not let that in. This is the death warfare trying to get into your situation. So praying against, you know, we bring the power of the resurrection. We bring the glory of the living God. We bring the river of life against all ways that death is trying to get into your situation. into our household, our marriage, or this relationship, or this company. Where you see the end of things imminent, where you see the fruit of it. I would be very suspect because there's just a ton of this that's been rolled out in the world. And once in a while, you know, Gobble shows that he'll be in a time of prayer and he'll say, "John, I need to show you something," and he's showed me, and he's just hordes of desperate being released in the world. And it was shortly after that, all these marriages we started seeing blow up, and other things as well. Okay, so that's one example. Another example is chaos. The enemy is a chaos agent. They love introducing chaos into things. But if you pick up the news lately, on any random day, I guarantee you that six out of the 10 headlines are going to have chaos in them. You know, uncertainty in healthcare, uncertainty in the global markets, uncertainty in immigration, there's uncertainty. Now there's terrorists, now there's not. Now there, you know, and so anything that feels chaotic that's trying to get into your kingdom and your realm, you're going to want to pray against them. Go, no, no chaos here. Your thought life, or a project you're working on is suddenly like, "Well, my computer's not working." And whoa, the furnace just went out. And then the next day, it's a flat tire. You go, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no chaos." We bring the glory of a living God, Genesis 1. He brings order out of chaos. Now you're not taking this on on a global level. You're taking it on within your marriage, your kingdom, your kids, your realm. Last thing I wanted to name was hatred. Folks, you can't even post an opinion online these days about raising pets without people attacking you with a level of vitriol. I mean, we're shooting each other, right? They've fascinated the head of the United Healthcare because they don't like the healthcare policy. I mean, like the level of hatred that has entered into human discourse, and then obviously, you throw racial tension into it, or things like, what's going on in the Middle East, but you have to understand this isn't just human sin. This is being exacerbated by the hatred of the King of Darkness. So anytime you see that trying to get in, we go, "No, no, no, no, no, the love of God, we command the love of Almighty God against all hatred. You cannot come into this friendship. You can't come into my thought life. No, you cannot get in. We forbid it." And we send you to the judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ immediately. The way to learn and grow in this Ryan is, give it a try. And if five times out of 10, something shifts, you're like, "Oh, well, that was real." And the other five times you go, "Well, I guess I need to go take an Advil or go get an app." - Yeah. - No? - That's right. And the migraine might be related to marriage. We can't prove that. That's, that's, yeah. But I'm so, what would be your take-home message to you for? So married couples, where is it? What's the typical doorways you see that the enemy's sneaking in to wreck marriages, both as a counselor and someone with a pastoral background as well? - Okay. So first off, unspoken expectations. Unspoken expectations are tomorrow's resentments. You're headed into Thanksgiving. You're headed into Christmas or you're going into, make a big financial decision or you're going into a holiday. Please talk about your expectations. Because if you're holding unspoken expectations and then your spouse doesn't meet them, you're gonna, you're gonna be resentful and then the enemy's gonna jump all over them. So that would be one unspoken expectations. Another one would be unforgiveness. You just cannot hold on to unforgiveness. In any relationship, friendships, your church, but particularly, it obviously in marriages, you have to forgive. You have to be a very, very generous forgiver. And I mean, you forgive before they ask for forgiveness. - Yeah, because we talked with a verse earlier and you know, do not give the enemy a foothold and getting angry. And I see this being such a huge issue and the church being torn apart over just these petty squabbles and fighting and it's so hard, we all have someone who's wronged us. But I'm curious also as someone who specializes like what is the actual like science in wisdom, like humingling the proper and best way to reconcile rapidly, especially in the idea of being that, if we are reconciled, we don't give the enemy a foothold with our anger. So what's the wisdom for the right way to do this? - Okay, let me first name one more thing because when people are judging you, when they're speaking horrible things about you, when they're gossiping, the Bible takes blessing and cursing very, very, very seriously. And the ancients were very fearful of cursing. You know, you see it in the Old Testament, please don't curse me, bless me. You know, when human beings speak against you, I'll get in your presence, but outside your presence, those are word cursives. They're a low level grade of cursing, okay? Not only do you have to forgive it, but you cancel the sins of others against you with the blood of Christ. So Father, we forgive these terrible things that are being said, we forgive the gossip and we cancel the power of the cursing with the blood of Jesus Christ. Because again, the enemy is an opportunist, he's a legalist, he's gonna use that sin to get in there and then try and rip things up. You've got the campfire and the bonfire, right? The path to reconciliation and repair always begins with forgiveness before it's asked for. It begins with love. Love changes your neurochemistry. Love literally changes the structure of your brain. You go, I choose to love my enemies. Now, I'm not condoning the behavior, okay, I'm not talking about like a codependent, you know, sort of a thing where you're like, "Oh, it's okay, it's okay." No, no, no, what they're doing is bad. (chuckles) That's why you're forgiving it. It is sin. That's why you're forgiving it. So it's important to name what it is. I would also add to this, it is important to grieve the harm that others have caused you. Because ungrieved grief is stored in the body and it will get in the way of reconciliation. Your heart will not be available for reconciliation. So you do need to grieve the harm. So you're naming the harm. You see, you're not making light of it. You're saying, this is terrible. I grieve it. I forgive it. I choose love, okay? And then you offer the olive branch. You know, we try and assume the best about others. You, maybe you didn't understand how devastating that was. Right, language like that. Could we gather and talk about, I know you have only the best for us in mind. But could we talk about how poorly you handle that situation? Yeah, that sort of thing. That's good. So yeah, for maybe people right now who are saying, oh man, because I'm a rife spoken of the future, which is that we always talk about unforgiveness and we always ask at the end. Everyone close your eyes. Who's that one person right now? It might be a little thing like they beat you in fantasy football and you just need to pay them the $50 that you lost and get over it. Or it's, hey, you know, you, a dear friend has wounded me. Like someone I never thought was possible. But for anyone right now who's just saying, hey, oh man, I, when I think about that person, it's like, there's that visceral reaction. What is assuming everyone's obviously different circumstances and no one's to endanger themselves? But like, what's the general wisdom here from a reconciliation standpoint of what they should do? What's a proper tangible action step they could do both to free themselves and remove any soil for the enemy to get in? Well, okay. First of all, if you always have to do the internal work first, which is you're grieving and you're forgiving and the comfort and solace of Christ, please invite the comfort of Jesus into the harm, right? He is our comforter. You have to do the internal work first. Please do not approach a conversation with them. While you have all this unresolved anger inside of you, if you're really, really angry, go into the garage, you know, take a running shoe, pick up a spatula and just go to town on your recycling bin. You got it, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, you got to get it out of you. Okay. You cannot approach the conversation while you are still a champagne bottle all shook up. Okay. All right. Then you also have to discern, you know, one of the things Jesus just as a realist, man, he's just, most of what he says, it's just realism. And he talks about eyes to hear, eyes to see and ears to hear, you know, some people are not open to it. Some people are not open to the reconciliation. And so I would, please get some other eyes on the situation. Okay. You're probably not as objective as you think you are and go, do you think they're open to a conversation? Do you think now is the right time? Because folks, if they're not ready to move towards reconciliation, it's not gonna go well no matter how sincere you are. So you also have to be mature. You have to be a discerning adult and be willing to accept in many scenarios. This, we can't even talk about this for a while, you know. We can't bring this back up and it might be your parents. It might be a sibling, a friend. Get some other eyes on it, please. Don't be the only one that's trying to discern, are they open to a conversation? And then you try, you try. It might be a letter to start with. It might be an email that says, look, I would really love to reconcile with you. Are you open to talking about this? Their response is going to be, be very informative. Amazing. Yeah, I just, my heart is just I want everyone to be reconciled because I just know Father Martin's teacher is on the show so awesome that demons dwell in the realms of sin and trauma. We're all been hurt by people and you know, he just talks about like just remove any kindling you can have there because you just see how quickly these things can escalate and turn into these, you know, I've seen friendships torn apart of best friends for years over. Will you consider the smallest thing and just because both sides are too stubborn to extend the all of branch and I think of Jesus's verse, you know, my brother, when when approached me, my brother's sending against me seven times how many times should I forgive him? He's like, I say not seven but seven seven times and it's like, yeah, that's just such a huge thing. Yeah, but yeah, but we've also got to keep the unseen realm in the play here as well. So one of our first wake up calls in our marriage to the presence of darkness trying to get into our marriage, we were the kids of Gondabed, we had very young children, you know, we're maybe, oh gosh, I don't know, six years in the marriage. And I just took a risk one night and I said, sweet, I don't, I just don't feel like I can do anything right for you. I just, I feel like everything I try and do, it's just, it's never right. And she starts crying and she says, what? She says, that's the way I feel from you. I feel like I can't do anything right. And it was one of those moments we went, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, there's a third player in the dining room right now. I'm like, you feel accused by me? Yes, all the time. I'm like, bam, that is not my heart towards you. And she's like, that's not my heart towards you. And this is when we realize, wait a second, we bring the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ, the power of His cross, His blood, His resurrection and ascension against the spirits of animosity, division, discord, accusation. Now, we send them to the judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ, getting that out allowed us to then have the conversations where it was just the campfire, not the bonfire. So please don't move towards reconciliation until you also go, we forbid every foul spirit from interfering with this conversation. I think I heard in the interview that you mentioned that your wife has been open about struggling with an eating disorder in the past. Yes. And so we had actually a pre-stall and another show. And he mentioned that, and I'm curious if you can collaborate this, he said that one of the treatments and his work for eating disorders was actually to recognize the voice. And then they would name the voice, like Ed or something like, hey, eating disorder. And when the thought would come in, they would call it out and say, no, that's not true. And he's like, actually the best secular wisdom. And he's like, and it was beautiful because it works at a spiritual level and a secular. And if you don't believe in the spiritual, it still works in a secular, which was when you recognize a lie and a grimace that you call it out, you put into light and then you replace it verbally with the truth. And I'm curious, is that been your experience and is the science show that? Yep, yep, absolutely, especially self-rejection, self-rejection or body rejection or self-hatred. Those things also have to be named. So I renounce self-rejection. I don't hate myself. I forgive myself. I forgive my body. And I renounce this voice, right, of self-harm. That's really important. And almost all eating disorders, you're going to have some level of self-rejection, self-hatred self-cursing. But also, again, words that have been pronounced over you by a mother, perhaps a father, you know, and childhood wounds, you know, you have to address that as well, right, that the more, here's the beautiful thing. Okay, we're going to cast all this in such a lovely light. Jesus Christ is committed to your wholeheartedness. He is committed to the reintegration of your soul and your heart and healing, therefore, Isaiah 61, and therefore the healing of all harm. Okay, that is the goal of the gospel. You know, the St. Arnaz, the glory of God is man fully alive. Okay, so the love story is the continued work of Jesus Christ day by day healing our humanity. And he will use circumstances. He'll use a fight with your spouse. He'll use something terrible at work to surface the unhealed things within us. Why? Because the more we experience wholeness, the less vulnerable we are to the war and to the darkness. Right, like, there's stuff now that when the enemy tries it, I just laugh. I laugh out loud. I'm like, man, you haven't been around here for a while. That's an old story. That's the old John. Like, that didn't work anymore. Because what we're seeking, we're not seeking a constant fight with the Kingdom of Dardage. You have to deal with the unseen realm or you won't get through. The scripture is very clear about that. But the story is a love story and it's a story of wholeness and healing and internal sanctification, holiness, right? Character. This is a very joyful thing. What we're talking about is something very joyful to have it surfaced and go, whoa, I had no idea there was so much rage in me. Okay, Lord, here we go. Where's the rage from? Let's go. I'm in. Take me there, you know, and to allow God and in the presence of your priest, pastor, therapist to help you with the rage. This is all good news, folks. This is all the path towards sanctification and joy. I'm curious, obviously, of a new book out to experience Jesus, really. And I'm curious, you've delved into it and mentioned a lot of the mistakes. I also love seeing John of the Cross as well. What are some prep for those who have not had the pleasure of picking up your book or are just fascinated by the word mystic? What are a couple practices that you just were deeply moved by, perhaps incorporated into your own life? And you say, hey, for those mystics and training, for lack of better term, what are a couple of things that you would want Christians to maybe try practicing at home? Some tools that will help their prayer life, help them with their identity, get them excited about their walk with God? Yep, everybody, I'm going to tell you do one thing. We created an app for this to guide you through the very simple practices. It's called the pause, the one minute pause. It's free. We don't charge you anything. There's no subscription to it. We don't come back later and hit you for money. It's absolutely free. I phone an android, go to the app store, the one minute pause. The pause app is what we call it. And that within that app will teach you very, very basic practices of centering prayer. Very, very simple. Literally, we start with 60 seconds. Just teaching you to get quiet. And then one of the most beautiful practices is the practice of benevolent detachment. First, Peter 5, 7 cast all your cares upon the Lord because he cares for you. The world is trying to keep you in a constant state of agitation and distraction because when you're agitated and distracted, then that's when you reach for the third glass of wine or the bag of donuts or the the the math or whatever is your deal. They are the prostitution or whatever. Donuts to myth. I love the escalation. Wine, donuts, myth, Auslavina, John's general store has got a lot in there. Everybody's looking for something. If you can get your soul out of that state of agitation and distraction, you will be amazed how much well-being you can experience and also how much more aware you become of the presence of God with you. So it's called the pause app, the one minute pause, and within that are a variety of simple programs. We have a 30-day program. We have a 20-day program where it will guide you through. I teach Teresa prayer of recollection in the app. So there's a number of just very simple guided. You need someone to show you the way. Most people just don't have someone to show them the way. So I get the pause app. Try it. Okay. Don't pause this interview. But afterwards, we'll link to it in the show notes. And this year you can do hashtags Santa pause and reflect for this this Advent. John, I would be remiss. I know it's a little bit of a touching subject, no pun intended. But I I will on the show Father Martin's beyond sharing how trauma and unforgiveness and like the occult direct stuff has led to the most severe cases. He does talk a lot about sexual sin and I'm curious as a mental health therapist. Could you speak on is there, you know, what Paul talks about, you know, he uses sexually sins against his own body? Is there a unique, I guess, for lack of literature, collateral damage that happens from sexual sin or disordered sexual sins because like, I mean, all sin like affects us. But I'm curious, you know, to your wisdom and to your encouragement to people to say, Hey, I need yet another reason to avoid sexual sin. You know, I want to hear God's voice. I want to keep my mind pure. But, you know, does the neuroscience show that it is uniquely harmful when it's in the wrong context? Well, it's like it's cocaine folks. Like your brain goes absolutely nuts over this. Like it, it's very, that's why people get so deeply addicted, you know, to pornography or seeing prostitutes or that sort of thing. Because the neurochemistry is you are wired for ecstasy, everybody. You're made for Eden. Come on, man, this whole story is about love and joy and intimacy. So your body is wired for it. Your soul is wired for it. And again, this is why the older Sam. paints would talk so much about the consolation of Christ. Because if you're not experiencing on a regular basis that the nourishing, they called it sucker, solace, consolation of Christ within your soul, in the pain, harm, agitation, disappointment, loneliness, just your loneliness, then these things will become very inviting forms of medication. The problem is they're highly addictive because you are wired for ecstasy. So your brain goes nuts, man. It goes nuts. Your body goes nuts over an orgasm. So it's very hard then to extract. And again, remember, we're body soul spirit, right? And so you've got the body fighting you, you've got the soul that's crying out for solace and consolation. And then in the spirit, the, you know, the enemy jumps all over our sin, right? See, it opens the door to the kingdom of darkness. So one of the things that is so important for people to understand, this is this, we probably only have time to get into this. But the old testament is the story of trying to reform the human race from the outside through the use of law, regulation, discipline, pressure, programs, protocols, the kind of thing. It doesn't work. Nearly the external does not work. And so in, you know, Ezekiel 3626, in Jeremiah 31, the new covenant is promised. A new heart. I will give you. A new heart. I will give you. Why is this important? Well, if you get into the New Testament, you're like Paul and Ephesians 3, for example, your heart is now the dwelling place of Jesus Christ. You have Romans 2. Your heart has been circumcised to God. The reason this is so important is if you don't know that you have an internal transformation to rely on, that what are you going to do? You're not going to get out of this by self-discipline. You're just not. So when I, you know, the gorgeous girl at the cash register, we decided not to wear a bra today is waiting on me, you know, and my neurons go, "Oh, he smokes!" right? You're wired for acts to see. I could go, "You know what? I actually don't want that." I really don't. My heart is circumcised unto God. I am not inherently an adulterous man. I am, I am crucified with Christ. The internal God is redeeming human, the human race from the inside out. You've got to realize you have a new heart. You have Christ within you. And this is, this is back to the positive talk that you were saying that's part of the healing of eating disorders is you replace the lie. You're just a lustful, you're in bondage. You'll never get out. Right? That's one of the agreements that the people in deep sin that the enemy says, "You'll never get out." You're locked in. You go, "No, no, no. I reject that." Purely on the basis of Scripture, I am crucified with Christ. Galatians 5.1. It is for freedom that Christ has set me free. I am in a battle, but Christ is transforming me from the inside. This really helps with when you're hit with the temptation of sexual sin to go, "My core identity, I don't actually want this." Right. And I'm curious, John, too, because obviously it seems like the enemy's tactic is to espouse a lie, which is rooted in some truth. Like for example, just have unmitigated, like you can do whatever you want sexually, and there's no consequence to it. Right? And obviously we know it's not true in one sense, because you can make a life, and you could say, "It's a great thing, but still it's like there's a tremendous power in this." And God, and He's also, "Well, God's limiting you, right? Because He doesn't want you to enjoy this." But I'm even just like, take that, for example. Is it true that, and I know you can generalize, though, but I don't know if there's even studies in this, but for example, is it just true that unmitigated permuscuity does not lead to mental well-being or happiness? Is there any data on that? No, it extends data on it. They'll do data on singles with a highly sexually active lifestyle. They are the most disappointed people sexually. They'll admit it. They don't like their sexual life. They find it disappointing. You know who the most happy sexual people are? Boring middle-class married folks. See, and I love hearing that because we experience these temptations, we experience like every day. God, you know, the enemy's like, you only live once, which is like half true, but you only have this life. Well, you actually have an eternal life, but this life, Matt, and it's just cool too if you look into it, it seems like all the lies that we get thrown. If you really dig into them, they're like cotton candy, and if you really just peel it back, like, yeah, marriage is super tough, but that's ultimately going to be way more rewarding than just like a litany of partners. Well, this is the same. This is true with the data in same-sex partnerships, is that they are very, very disappointed people. They're not reporting these high levels of joy and sexual happiness. They're very frustrated and disappointed with their sexual lives. So just by their own self-reporting, so it's not rewarding. It doesn't work. Here's the other thing that we need to say on this, though, because you said something very important a few moments ago, right? You said that sexual sin of all sins tends to be particularly harmful. It is. It is particularly damaging. One of the saddest pieces of data in the world is that the majority of women who are rescued out of sexual trafficking go back of their own accord without healing and deliverance. They go back. Why? Because sexual harm does so much damage to the human soul that the kingdom of darkness sets up such strongholds there that they will hold you in that bondage that harm is not healed and the foul spirits are not cast out. So these poor gals and men, boys, girls will go back. They might be rescued out of it for several years, but then they'll go back into a prostituted lifestyle or they'll just go into a promiscuous lifestyle or they'll get married and then divorced and marry the divorce. I think because the sexual harm runs so deep in our humanity, again, because of the beauty of the design, we were designed for the intimacy. The harm runs so deep that these strongholds tend to be among the strongest. And it makes perfect sense then why the enemy is waged such a war. You can't turn on the TV without just being inundated with just content which is designed to fry your circuits. And I think about just like I do have to like tip my cap in the metaphorical sense because I think about if God speaks to me in the quiet boredom of my life and then this thing comes in existence. And now every 10 seconds, I'm like checking out of my spiritual walk. I turn on the TV. I'm just flooded with imagery that no one in the ancient church would be. I do wonder what like you mentioned here in AIS. If he saw HBO and Netflix today, you know, what shows would he watch? The only thing he could watch, even his at cake would be extreme. So yeah, wow. Yeah. So one of the books I wrote was called the other relief of holiness. Holiness has been really downplayed. People think it's such a drag. It's a buzz kill. You know, it is not. It is the most joyful, happy life. And also the healing and the freedom that comes from it and the freedom from spiritual attack because when Jesus in John 14 says, yep, the evil one is coming, but he has nothing in me. I love that verse. Like he's like, there's no hook. There's no angle. There's nothing. There's nothing to play on in me. That is a desirable life. That is a joyful life. The book has been re-released with a new title. Apparently, holiness doesn't sell. So my publisher changed the title. Dude, the book is called "Free to Live." But in that book, in experienced Jesus, really, in all of my books, I will include integrative prayers, healing prayers, and deliverance prayers. You can also find them on our website on our app, because we need guidance into the cleansing of our inner world and the joy and relief that then holiness brings. Yeah, new man. Well, that's what I deeply appreciated about journeying closer to the Catholic Church with the show and everything is that, you know, they always say, yes, of course you're supposed to have relish of Jesus, but your fundamental goal is he's making you into a diamond. You're being turned into a saint. And that is your, that is the process. If you look at everything through that lens, everything takes on a different form, because then even earlier today, someone was mentioning there were some of Euthanasia and why is the church so against it? Without trying to trivialize these, even dying has this sanctifying formation on the person who's set tending to the person dying, and that everything can be offered up for this redemption. And I thought, wow, that's just not a sermon I've heard that often. So it's been really, really beautiful. And I have to wonder, I'm curious, do you ever marvel and go, wow, God, why do we have an enemy? Like, why did you let, why was there a serpent in the garden in the first place? Like, Eden was great. Why was there a serpent? Like, why did he allow them in the first place? Is that ever vexed at all? I am satisfied with the answer that if you want a universe where love is real, you have to allow angels and humans free will. You can't create puppets if you love is chosen. And so God didn't create puppets. He gave angels and human beings the dignity of causation. And so he's not the author of evil, but the possibility of free choice of evil. Yes, absolutely. So I'm satisfied that it's a love story. And in a love story, you're going to take enormous risks. It love is incredibly vulnerable. You're going to take enormous risks. Part of what you were alluding to is through our suffering, he is shaping us, right? So in the therapeutic world that adages, don't waste your pain. Don't waste your pain, folks. Let it transform you into the image of Christ. Let your, you know, use it to drive you into a deeper intimacy. With your heavenly Father, with the Holy Spirit, and with the Lord Jesus. All right, well, John, you know, they say, even the best movies have to roll the credits at some point. And I could talk to you for hundreds of hours, but I so appreciate you coming by. I do, I want to end with two lighting run questions, just because I do, I get this question all the time. You are a mental health professional, so I do have to ask it, but do you have any quick thoughts on the hegeogram because I get more questions about that than, and I don't know enough about it. But is that an actual useful framework or is it true that there's some weird background to it? And it's actually something best left alone? Do you have any strong thoughts on that? - I have two reservations. The first one is very simple, and it can be applied to any of the, you know, the Myers-Briggs, or any of those prototyping. They can be helpful for a certain level of self-understanding. However, I know people, I know my clients, whose anyogram has changed through their therapy, right? Because what, you have to ask, wait a second, what are you measuring? Are you measuring brokenness? Are you measuring true identity? - Mm, okay. - That's good, that's good. - Oh, that's very important. So you need to be careful about even, quote, making agreements with, well, I'm just an ENTP or I'm just an anyogram, a-- - A Ravenclaw Hufflepuff, for instance. - Yeah, exactly, oh, that's good. I don't know a great deal about it, but there is something about the anyogram that I don't like its roots. I don't like its roots. So I don't use it, and I don't use it as a diagnostic tool. - I hear you on the, it's funny because, I've had people say, oh, I'm an eight, that's what I do. I'm just mean, and I'm like, or you're just mean, and that number is giving you a license. - It's in! (laughing) - That's actually, I know, in any of you, a sinneogram, maybe we need to rephrase that. So, well, good, I've here a misfit and ask you that, but John, any parting wisdom for us, we obviously talked a lot about spiritual over, but also in the context of mental health, which is a huge issue of the show. Father's a huge fan of people seeking out therapy, and just, you know, keeping your sighted out as clean as possible, give the enemy no foothold. Any take home wisdom that you wanna share with us? - Yes, thank you so much for asking that. Here's what the ancients knew, that we are rediscovering now in the modern therapeutic world. The soul is healed through union with Christ. This is the most beautiful thing, St. John said, in the quiet of meditation, this Holy Spirit secretly anoints the soul, and heals our deepest ones. What you are seeking is union with Christ. You are vine and branch. This is what the whole story is about. Whatever issue it is you're facing, the first thing you pray is come into this, Lord Jesus, come into my rage, come into my fear, come into my loneliness, come into my sexuality, come into my compulsive thinking. Come in because for the soul to be inhabited by Christ, to come into union with Christ, this is the secret. And why is this important, Ryan? Because the model of human healing can't be $10,000 and a mental health professional. What do you say to the third of the world who don't have access to the finances or the resources? That is a cruel model for human recovery. Seek union with Christ. Amen to that. Well folks, thank you so much for listening, John. We thank you so much for your time today, your ministry. Thank you for writing all your books and just all the work you've done. I remember when I first became a Christian, you were one of the first books someone handed me and I was right after Tim Keller and you know that even be mentioned in that same sentence is just a win, right? So it's an honor to meet you and to have you on the show. So we hope you'll come back and visit us again and thanks for joining us. I'm gonna say. - Yeah, such a mile. Bless you guys. - Awesome. Well folks, thanks for listening and we'll get back to you real soon. (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music)