Girls is back. That is all.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This week on The Interface, millions of kids have grown up on camera with their childhoods turned into content. There's a new law in California that gives influencers the right to be forgotten and it could impact adults too. And an attack on Russian data centers started a rumor that all the evil disinformation bots had been deleted from the internet. But the truth might actually be a lot scarier. For our take, join me, Jess Maddox, and me, Thomas Dremain, for The Interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast. This episode of Please Don't Contains Adult Language and Themes. So if you're not into that sort of thing, go and find something else on the BBC sounds up. You ready? I was born ready. You do say that, but sometimes you don't seem quite as ready as I. Um, I think we all know I'm quite up today. Paper towels. Wow. Please do. Yeah. What's it not to like? Yeah, so what I've known for a moment, but no, if you recycle a bit, it's paper. How about can paper be? Sure. Because what I find is obviously I spend a lot of time in pubs. Yeah. The hand washing and hand drive facilities are never up to my personal standard. I'm a bit over the hand blowers. Because the generic hand blowers, they just sort of go nothing. Paper towels, please do. But when you said that, I assumed you meant to kitchen towel. And I was like, yeah, as much as you can handle. Oh, yeah, I do like mopping up a good surface with some kitchen towel. I'm going to say something now that I bet you've not heard for five years. Thank you for the orgasm. Yeah. I love you, my husband. Um, B-D-E. Wow, throwback in it. Are you saying please do or please don't? It's just a discussion. I mean, the format is secondary. The thing is, it's very hard to talk about dicks without sounding like you're talking about your own. But I think there just isn't enough respect for mid-dick. I think we need to, like, it's the one you never hear about. You only hear about big and small. And there's just so many men out there. The B-D-E guys doesn't have like a bathroom logo. There's normal dicks. And they're good at shagging. Normal dick club, but yeah, yeah. N-D-C. There we go. I saw that guy from one of those, this guy who did some TikTok about a monologue and it said mid-dick. And I saw him, I just thought mid-dick. Mid-dick. So mid-dick in, but B-D-E. Mid-dick energy is the energy that is keeping society moving forward. Big-dick energy is a may pole to dance around. It's a flag moment. So it feels like you're quite pro. Yeah, I just, it just depends. But like, you sleep with someone with a big dick. They're just like, "Here's my big dick." Yeah. And you're like, "Okay." What set me off was I met a guy at a party. Yeah. And I was like, "With a big dick." Well, I was like, "Oh, he has B-D-E." Right. I haven't really counted that in the wild for a while. I'd kind of forgotten about the concept. Yeah. And then he went to the bathroom. And two women told me that, yes, he did have quite the chopper. Hello, hello, hello, welcome to Please Don't. From BBC Sounds, the podcast where we are right about everything. I am Raven Smith. I'm Joel Golby. This week we're talking about Lena Dunham's girls come back. Excited about that. Hmm. James A. Castor being something on the troters. He's doing something anyway. And the new Allie G film. Hi. If you're listening to somebody who looks at apps, it really helps if we get a subscription from you on BBC Sounds. So please do that. And if you want to get in touch, that is both allowed and encouraged. It's Raven and Joel at bbc.co.uk. Girls is back. Girls is back next summer. Five episodes. Yes. What's your initial reaction to the fact that this seminal text is being reopened? What's been fun is since the announcement, which I think was last Wednesday. That question has been posed to be dozens of times. Yeah, people are nervous, not? And I think it's nice that like a cultural moment has made everyone sort of inhale and talk about it at the pub, basically. Yeah. What's my reaction, eh? Cautious hope. Hmm. Cautious optimism. Hmm. Because this reaction may contain hope. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Good. Yeah, I mean, the original run. Mm-hmm. Top to bottom, start to finish perfect. That's interesting because I've got some questions about the final season that I'd like to address later. Nope. Where have we left them is my real question, but yes. I think you did it right. So you really don't want to touch something that perfect. Mm-hmm. Like they never went back and touched the UK office apart from where Ricky Gervais got dressed in. That made for David Brentfield. One is leader, done an incredible writer on a day. And she knows these characters down to the bone. Yes. And I like the fact that when she announced it, which I think she did on a substack, she was sort of saying a bit around the time of my 40th birthday, like the characters started talking to me in the shower. Yeah. And that's always a good sign. I'm like, good. This has come to her very organically. And like, that's the creative spark from the ether. It's not her sitting down, because HBO went five episodes. HBO came in with a giant novelty jet. Two million gold. And then we're trying to come back. No, absolutely. I like the fact that it's a pure organic idea that's come to her. And I also like the fact that it's five episodes rather than trying to rebate a full season. I think everyone assumes it's going to be one episode per character. I hope so. When I was in the right room with her, she was like, if we were stuck notoriously, if you're stuck for a story. Yeah, you have a wedding or a birthday. So I'm assuming they were going to get together in the last episode for a wedding or a birthday. It's going to be five different birthday. Or someone getting married on the birthday. Yeah, me on. I full disclosure, I was in the right room for too much. So we developed, there was eight episodes and we developed it to 10. The best thing she said in the first day was you don't have to be funny. You have to be interesting. What were you there for, then? Well, a lot of people want to be really funny, don't they? And she's not there for the, she's like, actually, there's things that have happened to you will help make this better. So if you could just tell me about them. How much of the idea did she come with? Quite a lot. Playlist of like, for the characters, for the tone of the show, because obviously her part now is a musician. So him and the music design was a big, is a big part of their relationship. So that was brought in quite early on. And we knew who the characters were. She was already talking to Meg. She knows how to make TV that people are like, I feel this. And also it's entertaining. You, we talk about this all the time. There's so much OK TV. There's so much good TV. But amazing TV is really hard to come by. That's right. Girls is up there, but because it's about female stories, it's the same as sex and the city. People just move on. They don't think of it in the same reverent way. And when you look at what people talk about being the greatest shows of all time, there are always stories about men and their relationships between men. You've got the sopranos. You've got the wire. You've got literally men going mad. What I hated and loved most about girls when it was on was how much it mirrored the best and worst things that I thought of myself. Oh, yeah. Her way to tap into the psyche of women now. And obviously, as a gay man dancing around his 40s, I do think of myself. Culturally, I'm a linear lady. So I just, there was just some, like the excruciating things about those girls with the vendigam of them overlapping with our own lives and the way that we were behaving. Yeah, I think what made it so slitheringly uncomfortable to watch sometimes was how much you saw the dark and excruciating parts of you reflected not just in Hannah, but all the characters there. Not just for gay men and millennial women. No, sure. Normal people too. But I also wonder if there is a, it was transgressive, using her body in the way that she did at the time. But there was something transgressive for an entire generation of not looking like a stick thin valley girl and driving around off your nut in L.A. getting done for drink driving. You know, 2012 was a time of like, people are getting more alternative is breaking through. And what I wonder is, what is transgressive now? In a world of like, where we're all able to name our feelings and apologize properly and do all this stuff, what is it that's going to make these girls who are now becoming young women? Or however we want to describe, they're still girls, right? In a way, when do we become adults? Is the question that we face our whole lives? When am I officially an adult? Do you reckon you are? Well, I mean, when I'm with my kid and I'm the only person who wants to work for her being alive, yeah, I don't, I'm not like, I'm a boy. I oversaw her so I was like, you're the most boy person I've ever met in my life. I would agree and disagree, you are really a grown-up too. And that's the whole point, right? It's so gray for so long. It's quite clear in the 50s when you become an adult or it's quite clear, you know, in biblical times, we don't need to go back that far. But I just wonder what will make them transgressive now. And the only way I think to be transgressive now is for them to behave and not apologize. And I think that is the only way that this is going to make sense. if they do. stupid stuff and they're not like, "I need to take accountability for the stupid stuff I've done." - Oh yeah, yeah. - 'Cause those attempts to do that in their 20s are funny, but now if they're just like kind of scripted off this play because-- - No one could be in therapy. - No one. - I mean, someone that's gonna be a therapist. Adam Driver's not coming back. If you're still in that situation ship with the guy from your 20s, it needs, if you're still with that person, I'm not gonna say you shouldn't be, it should be calm by now. If it's not calm and you're still in your head going, what the hell is going on with us? You shouldn't be in that relationship after 20 years. - No, it really wouldn't make sense to A, they would know each other and B, that Adam would live in New York. - No, but also I think if they're together, it has to be calm and nice. It's something they did very well in the second, the city movie. Big and Carrie were really settled. They were reading in bed and sharing each other's glasses. They were calm because you can't live in the drama of a TV series in a real relationship that lasts for a long time. So Adam's either there and it's calm, which is boring and bad TV, or it's crazy, which is unbelievable. - I want every episode to have a different rumor as to how he died. - Oh, lovely. But we should consider the curse of and just like that. The first episode had some really good merit, but people were really disappointed with how those stories lines played out for beloved characters that you see yourself in, but also drive you up the wall. - Okay, why? - Why was it bad? - Like, why did they fuck it up? - Well, they acted. - Well, to counteract the criticism that it was a very white show, each one of the women had their own brown person to like to react to, which did not work. One of them that just didn't come back for the next season, they never really mentioned it. - No, I'm not. - And then I think they also, the way the characters behaved, we've all got like a relationship with these characters that we love, but the way that they behaved was almost without memory of how they were for all of their thirties. So it was very hard to see Miranda like misgendering people because of all the people that was gonna get that right, it's Miranda. So there's a fault in who she is as a person, not in the story lines and the scenes were had feeling and felt real, but they were forgetting their heritage. But lots of really funny stuff happened. When Carrie goes on that first day after, she's after Bigger's passed away. Spoilers, when she's sick on the street 'cause she drinks so much, it's really funny. When she wheezes in the juice bottle, it's really funny. When Miranda first has sex after breaking up with Stephen, she has this like primordial orgasm in the next room. It's really funny, lots of great stuff happens. And what I hope for girls is lots of great stuff will happen, but will also feel like Marnie is still Marnie. Jesser is still, what happens to a manic pixie dream girl when she's knocking on 40? - I don't think they give her a script. I think they just feel mirrored. - They're just like freestyle. - Yeah, they sort of, you know how curbing enthusiasm is like, it's an outline. - Yeah. - I think that's what they do with Jesser. She just shows up and slouches around. They have to run after her to put a mic on her. - Who else would you wanna see coming back? - I wanna see Rey in a very calm, happy marriage with A.D. Bryant as per stunning the penultimate episode. I want that to be a funny running gag that they're just incredibly happy and normal. - She's trying to cut them all out. She was like, you fuck as a toxic. Get the fuck out of my life forever. - Such great energy. - What's she gonna do? But we're hoping for a bottle episode and she's back in Japan. - She can't go back to Japan. - I can't play with you. - Yeah, you can't. You do it once. - But I want her to be of all the ones I wanna see thriving. I just sort of clip the other day of Winchie accidently. - Like crack it in, it was so funny. - Yeah, that was good. - And she just runs away and Rey's just chasing her all night and he's like, why are you chasing me? He's like, 'cause you've done crack. I'm trying to keep an eye on you. - Rey rules. - Yeah. - The truth. - The old. - The old you get, the boy you go. - Girl, Rey was right all along apart from about one episode where he got angry at the municipal government about traffic. - Oh, but then he ran for office? - Yeah, that was a bit tedious. But the rest of it was great. - It was just so brilliant. - Sadly, I don't think it makes any sense for us to see Charlie's beautiful face again. - Okay, wait, Charlie's coming back. - No, he won't. - Charlie's coming back. - Why would Charlie come back? - Because Lena understands what the world needs. - No. - Not just what the girls need. - Just, it's nice to remember how fucking good it was. - And the second you rewatch it with a hindsight of even two years, you are like, what a fucking brilliance that I have of how it is to be a young woman. It was so, she was sending herself up, but also being reverent to her own experience. You don't think it was satirical? - I think it was a miracle of TV. - Yeah. - But I don't know if I ever perceived it as being written as actively satirical. - Have you? - Because it felt like such a document of the moment and the time and the way people are. I think her writing Hannah as a sort of a cute extension of herself was just so clever and balanced and brilliant. And it didn't ever strike me as teeth out, satire for other people. And I also, I'm not sure it was hated at the time. I think there was a lot of discourse around how annoying people found my characters, but that sort of shouts back to what we were talking about. People being able to see threads of themselves on the screen. Discoals was different at the time, buzzfeed. It was a very buzzfeed moment. - Yeah, top 10 reasons to hate leader Dunham. - Bingo. I think it's very interesting how with every rewatch I've done, I've got something completely different out of it. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's aging like wine. - Here's aging like wine, but I also think Lena Dunham is a cautionary tale for successful authors who are telling women who are telling their own stories in the media because she is the kind of, she did what most any man would do, which was lean into her renown and keep making stuff and keep putting herself out there. And she got really, really burnt. At the top of her career, the backlash was backlashy. I don't think you can say it was- - It was crazy. - The backlash was negative. - But maybe it wasn't for the show. Maybe it was just for what she represented in the culture. People were angry that she was privileged. People were angry about a lot of different rumoury things about her. And I think if you look at other female authors of similar ilk, they tend to take a big step back when they're at the top of their success. They've learnt from the Lena Dunham School of like, we're gonna build you up and then we're gonna chop you down. She got really battered. I think the miracle of Lena Dunham, for me, having worked with her, is that despite the way that she talks, getting her in so much trouble, it's still the way that she talks. She doesn't mediate how she expresses herself based on how people will hear it. She says what she thinks. And I think that's gonna be good for the show. She's not thinking about us. She's not thinking about the viewers when she's making this show. She's thinking about how good the show's gonna be. I think it's gonna focus on what it means to be 40 and how many different ways that can manifest. 'Cause I think she's more interested in the different ways you can be 40. Yeah. And I do think that is interesting, like, obviously, as millennials, we're one of the most documented generations ever. And I think for the past couple of years, we've all taken off the pedal a little bit because Gen Z has been taking the mic out of that pause we all do when we start recording videos on our phones and stuff like that. I think there's been a self-awareness of cringe and the little hats we used to wear and the stomp clap music we used to listen to. And I think it's interesting that this generation that has gone through not having internet and then finding internet as teenagers rather than the always on iPads stuff, and all of that sort of looking in with the most therapist generation that's ever lived as well. There's a lot going on. And so I do think not to sound too sort of millennials are the best lulla-lulla. But like, there is something interesting and different about this moment of, not me and not you, we're not gonna do that, but of this generation turning 40. Right. What is your please don't for the return of girls? Please don't get carried away by how much people love the five episodes and then write five more immediately after. Stop at five. - That's good. My please don't, is please don't forget that time that Marnie sang at the tech gathering. - So good. (upbeat music) - Okay, we're back. Who's back? Boo, jacket. - Can you not do it? - I've got just got this. - Absolutely. This is way too significant ring is stopping me. - Anyway, Ali G's back. - Thank God. Thank God. - Yeah. - I thought the tweet he wrote was funny. - What was the tweet he wrote? - In a world where comedians could get canceled for one on PC joke, I decided to bring this guy back. And that is the end of the joke for me personally. - Yeah, it's almost a joke, I'll take it. - Why is he back? - This is what I really genuinely have been wondering because this, it's too befuddling. I came evasion at the Perth. time to love Alley G on Channel 4 and then the film. The film was like, I've been thinking recently that there's a certain kind of, there was a DVD era where there were certain films that became holy texts. Right. Any sort of comedy that came in a red case with a white cover. It's why people still pretend old school was funny because they had it on DVD and they watched it a load of times, wedding crashes. School of Rock still holds up, it's a magnificent film. It's a magnificent film. Super bad. Things of that nature, the ballad of Ricky Bobby. And in that you would have Alley G on DVD and when you were like I once was a young man, someone would put on Alley G Damovie on DVD and he wouldn't even watch it to the end or he wouldn't even start it, just sort of always be on. I was fully Alley G peeled back of a day. I can tell, could you do it with the other hand? No, that's not how my left hand works. But I have been genuinely wondering within that context because the prospect of an Alley G Revisit leaves me so cold. Well then who is it for if not me? Money. Yes. Why else would he be doing this? I also just think like who was he he was sending up white rude boys pretending to be black rude boys like neither of which really exists as a cultural phenomenon anymore. No. So what's he who's the laugh on? Don't really know but I the thing is I think when people try and analyse Alley G as a secret text, something smart. Yeah. They do lead on to you know who's he sending up now. Sure. These people don't exist. But I don't know if it was ever really that clever at the time in that sort of intellectualised way or he just found a voice and his his pure boldiness when he did like the Beckham's interview and stuff like that. There was a moment in British comedy around there which was which was this sudden rush of catchphrase humor again before it went away. Yeah yeah yeah. I think at the time he found a funny character and he ran very fast with it. But you've seen these like on on on TikTok or wherever whatever you get your short form videos. People watching character comedy from the 90s and being like this is really offensive. If you could bring back any other script like a character comedy because Mrs. Merton was like how to talk show at the time. Oh she was great. Well the thing is. I would like to see if you little Britain people come back because it just think it's the woman needs to sick every time a black person makes her a meal. Was I expected a little Britain apology or today? No that I just have a problem with censorship of the past and I mean that in the in the most BBC friendly way because I know they've taken scenes out that they felt were offensive. But like we don't have conversations about what's racist if we have all the racism taken out of our culture that that used to existed within it. I can't have a conversation with my daughter about Bambi's mother getting shot if they've taken that scene out of it. Do you know what I mean? There's no this is a moment for us to discuss what's wrong. Not a moment for us to turn a blind eye. And to that end a second allergy film to be fair. Is it cause I was black? Fuck man. I don't want it to come back. I don't want to get back into this. From from what I can gather it looks like he's he's done a similar thing to Borat too. Yeah. Where he's set up a loose sketch of story, sent the character to America. And just seen how long you can hold his nerve. And part of me quietly thinks that could work because I mean Borat too was a real Covid movie as in it was filmed in Covid and kind of about Covid and then also came out in Covid and then people watched it in Covid. It was a very pure Covid movie. Yeah. But he did kind of work. It was funny. I just think post Rachel Dozel seems like the worst way to start a job. Yeah. I'm going to pretend to be from a different race. It just doesn't it's not great. It feels very kind of like 50s smoking halls. We're about to watch a trailer. You haven't seen it. No. I haven't seen it. So we're going to watch a bit of it. You can listen to a bit now. You're going to watch a bit on the screen but we're going to watch the whole thing now. Boy I got job for the first time ever. This is a film with real people. Not actors. Wow. Wow. It's Divorce Guy Energy, isn't it? I was expecting more plot. What do you think happens in that? They pretend they're having a baby. He's going to trick Americans and think he's a real person. Oh, there was a bit where he had a pee. That was funny. There was just a time to like shut up and go for an Oscar to do something really serious. This is your time, Ali. Please do something really serious. I never would be like Sasha Bancoen that it is our next is in the crowd. But do you know what I mean? This was not the time to bring back a character that we're not that nostalgic for to do something that I think that felt but yeah, that did not feel good. Where's the new bit? This is the new way to be funny. Where was that bit? That's the thing as well. A film where Sasha Bancoen goes and is such a preposterous character but Americans hold their note against him, worked in Borat and I can see how say 17 year old boys of this generation would discover the film Borat from 2005 and they understand how that's funny. I don't see how they're revisiting Ali G again. This makes sense to me, someone who was born in 2009. Who's this for? I can't believe you've just seen small dick jokes and someone pretending vaping on a pregnancy test and that is meant to be like a bastion of comedy from one of our great mind of comedy. This is a wild, he's having a poo. Yeah, he's having a poo. That's a big one. He's wearing a big jacket. Something I will tell you about Lena. She's like, I don't, I'll do any taboo but I won't do shit. I respect her. Isn't that the best thing? What a great thing. She's like, I'll do like, I will push the boundaries of anything but poo's off the table. Who's off the table? Just leave poo alone, leave it at home. I'm genuinely quite boggled by that. But at least we've come out of this being like, I'm funnier than Sasha Bancoen this week. This week I think I might be funny than that young man. One no. This week on the interface, millions of kids have grown up on camera with their childhoods turn into content. For our take, join me, just Maddox. And me, Thomas Germain, for the interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. It's email time. E-mail time. It's funny because in a way in this world it's never not email time. It's always email time. They are going to do jingles for this so I'm just going to throw a couple of notes in there and then they can remix it. Yeah. Email time. Okay. We can get a flat jingle out of that. No problems. Right. Hi, Joel and Raven. Right. I'm not actually a wanker but this might sound a bit annoying. Okay. So it wasn't definitely been listed to the party because that's the whole pitch. About two years ago there was an exhibition on at the National Portrait Gallery about the face magazine and its covers. Yeah. It's fine. Okay. A lot of their merch is based on a photo of Kate Moss with pink hair. I know. Well, tucked under a white duvet. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a fun enough picture. We're all agreed here. Where are we going? This is a safe space. However, this new show at the Tate about the 90s uses the same photo on all of its posters. Right. I find that lazy. What is going on? Is the photo that good? Is it just nostalgia bait? Has everyone working in museums only got access to one picture? I worry this will sound a bit London-centric but I've just moved out of the capital and I hope that absolves me a bit. Let me know what you think is going on. Cheers. Sophie. I'll take this one. This is exactly my kind of shit. This. Why? Notice in this kind of, yes, this is good. Two years apart, two different museums, same picture on a T-shirt. That's, oh, this is yummy. You know when you put out an article and there's a typo in it? No, I don't. Well, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah. Maybe it's on purpose because you already spent the first half wrong. And then people sort of reply to you really immediately, like, you got this wrong. Oh, yeah. And it's this very excruciating flush of feeling and you're like, I have to fix that immediate. It's like quite overwhelming and it's excruciating wins of embarrassment every time you think about it. I put out an article with three typos in this weekend. Don't worry about it, it's a fresh feeling. - What were the typos? - We don't need to go into it. I didn't catch all of them in the end. Point is, mid-dock. - Mid-dock. (laughs) The point is, whoever at the MPG commissioned that Kate was T-shirt and there's someone went, you know, two years ago. - They're not crazy. - They're having the worst six weeks of their life. Every time they look about a thing that they were so proud to have commissioned, a cool photo on a t-shirt, they're feeling the glow of humiliation. - I wonder what the pitch was originally from? - Well, presumably the face. - Oh right. - Why? 'Cause it's the face I forgot. - We gotta get some reading comprehension, baby. I'm gonna send you on a course. - What do you think about this '90s exhibition? 'Cause the Guardian absolutely trashed it. - Why? - Because the tape is so integral to like modern art, like contemporary art of Brits and the Brits School. And there's just not a lot of British contemporary art in the '90s exhibition at the tape. So if you're going to the museum that is the tape, that is this amazing kind of Tracey M in place, and there's one Tracey M in, and the load of pictures of magazines, you will be left disappointed. But if you are willing to kinda see the parallels between the two, then you might be slightly more satisfied. - Sort of feels like we've done a lot of remembering the '90s, the past three or four years. - Yeah, I'm assuming this is the zenith. - It has to be it now. How many photos of a spice girl can we have? - I mean, billions. - Yeah, but like, move on. - Are you saying the spice girls like they just disappeared? - What, they're still functioning well? - They're not like bewitched. Like, where's bewitched now? - Where's bewitched? Where's the bewitched exhibition actually? - Okay, we have a comment on our Instagram. - You're not happy about this, are you? - I wouldn't say it was unhappy. I'd just say it's time for me to respond to the haters. - Okay. - To the haters. - Fuck the haters. - So on the video back here. - The Kelly Clarkson video about the robot bird. I said she thinks she's pretty woman, which she says in her own thing. The comment underneath the video said, "Have you seen pretty woman? Have I seen pretty woman?" I don't know how you could dare to ask. Like every gay man tapped dancing around his 40s has seen pretty woman. It's like one of the first films. I just want to address this person directly. Hello, sir. Thank you for your comment. I have seen pretty woman. It's one of the most seminal films of my entire life. It is an ancient Sunday hangover watch for millennia. I've been living alongside this film my whole life. I could tell you trivia. She didn't know he was going to snap the box shut. And that's a real moment from real life in the film. Like, I could go on about this forever. She is beautiful. She was 21. That's wacky. Ladies day doing the divots. The guy from Seinfeld trying to slip her one. Yeah, I liked the guy from Seinfeld first. He's so hot. There's this hot like, and then it's a fairy tale. Yeah, so you have seen it. And then she rescues him right back and she kisses him. Anyway, never seen it, but I do love IMDB. What do you want me to say? Can I just save your mouth? Have you seen pretty woman? I literally, I nearly threw my phone across the room and my kid was running around. And she had to duck. I cannot tell you how much I've had to hear about this. I'll see. OK, and then he goes on to say this bit's fine. Yeah. Because it definitely wasn't about someone throwing a fit because something wasn't for sale. We know what the scene is about. It's about going into a shop and being treated like you're not worthy of the produce, which is what happened to Kelly Clarkson. But, like, she wasn't. She got the money that day. Big mistake, huge. I mean, if cultural lexicon, this is like how my husband hasn't seen the Wizard of Oz. We went to the premiere of Wicked, the London premiere. We were up in the gods, whatever. And Arianna Grande came out, and I said to my husband, "Shout, there's no place like home." I was like, "Shout, there's no place like home." And he's like, "What does that mean?" You can imagine how many times I'm referencing the Wizard of Oz in daily life. Like, oh, fly in monkeys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does he think? Oh, he had a brain, like, he is complete. That is meaning nothing to the man I live with. And it's, I was like, what about follow the yellow brick road? What about Munchkinland? We watched Wicked and we came out and he was like, "So, in the original film, is the green witch mean?" And I was like, that's the whole point. Is she wicked? This is a different film to reference the fact that is she wicked because she's so evil in the first one. I was like, "What, so you don't, you don't know how the Wicked Witch died?" And he was like, "No, how would you kill a Wicked Witch?" Cool, man. Cool. Absolutely insane to have never seen it. Have never seen it. He's like, "I get the gist." He does, though. It was like Ruby Red Slippers. These are like big cultural icons. Friend of Dorothy. Where the fuck is this guy? I don't know, man. (upbeat music) How are we doing it? We're ranking. Dragon. Coming in at number. I think there's still 14 of them in there. No, 13 of them in there. Coming in at Baker's dozen. Very good. It's very top of the pop sees. I think we could all agree that he's very nice to look at. And I'm sure if you're a young person listening to his music is quite enjoyable, but in that castle, Sebastian Croft is doing, fuck off. Right. Agreed, but I will say this for my friend Bash. Sure. I think he's going to come into his own. I think he's going to be there at the end, and I think that makes it. You can't get to the end of traders without kind of sitting back a little bit at the beginning. Think he's a bit meryl coded, but I'll take it. Sure. Number 12. Yes. Michael Sheen. Yeah, you really wanted him to be coming low. Yeah. So there he is, limboing in at number 12. How did he want him higher? I just think we should put some respect on him, but I agree, this doesn't feel like his show. Michael Sheen has lost my respect. He's not really discovering any, any, he's not really doing a lot of slew thing. He's rubbish. You're right. Okay, 12. Leanne, am I here? Pinnock. Wow. Yeah. God bless her. Oh my, yeah. She's not done anything. She's got, I'll tell you what she's done. She got locked in a room. That was interesting. And she laid on the floor and did two dance moves with Miranda Harper. The dance moves are very good. Sure. But not key to finding traitors. You got to do a bit more. That we know. You got to hustle a bit harder in there. I wonder if she's going to come into her own, or she, they're just going to think that the quietness is so suspicious that they kick her out. Number 10. It was James Blunt. I don't like him. Fine. Nice little thing. I don't think he's fully human. Number nine, Sharon Rooney. Yeah, Sharon's in good, the Lord's work. She's suspicious of the right people. Yes. She's got a nose for disinformation. I don't know how to explain it. She's got good wits. Yeah, I'm quite liking Rooney. I think she's, she's, everyone clearly loses concentration in that castle. And everyone clearly gets bedazzled by what happened that day. And they don't hold theories in their head for very long. No one seems to bare grudges day to day, which is why I would try to do that. Oh, it's your biggest criticism of the trade as a whole. But I think she's doing the right thing. She's remembering things with a lot of the other ones on. She's sleeping. Number eight. Joanne McNally. Sure, she's getting a lot of screen time for someone who does not have a clue about what she's, she has no idea what she's doing. But she's having a good time. You know, I met my friend, Ashley and Bee. Sure. She, everyone on trade as she would just play exactly the character. But this woman's playing of like, I don't really know what's going on. She doesn't, though. I'm a good crowd. I don't know what's going on. Her character is a bit of a push. And that possibly could take her to the end. Could she sus? I just like it when they say you're either a trade or a terrible faithful to anyone. And I'm just like, they, that means they don't like your personality. Yeah, she's really bad. Whatever your personal, whatever your game you've been, whatever role you've been casting this game, I don't like how you're being. Yeah, I don't think she'll last very long because the chaos is really not you sort of for the game. Yeah, I feel like perhaps Leanne would just give up and give her a little slap. Number seven, Ramesh. Ranganesh. Sure, didn't good work. I think very, very, very funny, very drawl. A team player, but definitely an outsider, does it? I've liked him in this, you know, as with everyone. I have been a little bit tired of him turning up on every TV show I ever fucking watched. But he's really won me over with this one. And it's one of some nice jackets, which I always appreciate. I can't believe we're getting a fashion critic of this. Go on. Roskeb. God bless Roskeb. There's only so much we can say. And I'm glad we've made it so far into episode six of this pod without mentioning him because normally I would mention him much sooner. He is heaven to watch on this show. I'm going to be Roskeb and I'm in the kitchen. I'm just getting a glass of water. OK, and you say something half jokingly about the possibility that I might be a traitor. Let me get in character. I just think you might, like, there is a possibility that you could still be a traitor. I'm not a traitor. I'm not a traitor. Oh, I like it. Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude. Yeah, he's fearing whatever someone says, like, you're not a traitor, which I actually might think Pleasing me take it really does take it so seriously. Yeah, but that's because he's played like He's played this hard not on TV, but he's got a kind of mid, but we all expect him to be like buttons from Cinderella and be like Hi, and he's like I'm serious like his life's work is the previous serious after being on So on after being on the soap. What number are you on number five? J.J. Kaster just do me a big move daddy. Oh He's I what is something more for me. I'm scared like move on He's not pulling any moves and he has the power to karate kid the shit out of the castle and just Take him down in a conniving malicious 4 TV way number four. Yes, Jerry Hall. Yeah, love her. Let do you know what she has found many traitors But she's a cool called every single person that castle a traitor. Yeah, I like that. She's playing dithering It she would be a fantastic traitor who was who played it like this. She just moves like a slow Cat. Yeah, frowling around and also doesn't seem to particularly care what's happening Number three, Maya jammer God bless jammer jammer forever. Jammer's playing. I just wish in her VT's she was like I'm being conniving with my fellow traitors. She does seem to be saying it's so sad that the other ones have been kicked out Yeah, I don't think she's sad. I think the the problem with jammer is she's actually playing a very very good traitor game Yeah, she's had to deal with a lot of chaos along the way. Yeah, and I kind of wish Not to invoke the holy name again, but like if you give her a good amazing treacherous traitor like a pool to play off The bounce back would be amazing, but she's just got James A. Castor just sort of nervously looking around She I think she's played a very good game a very clever composed game Not wonderful to watch especially when you've got two other boring traitors We've had so far number two king Kenny. Yeah, we love king Kenny I just think he's a nice nice guy and also what like to have not be known that well to not be that concerned about Perception to think I just need to be myself. Yeah, I just don't I think Other celebrities feel like they need to maintain some some some idea of them. Yes. He's just having a time He seems very he's just I like him a lot. He's funny. Yeah jammer loves it. I think jammer can now relax a bit I actually think Kenny will bring in some dynamic silly murders. I really liked the because obviously they're in the midst of The someone has to yawn to be murdered in play and fight thing, and I like the fact that His cool calm broke when he got given the instructions So he was like he went and got the perfume and put it in his pocket, and he was like I can't do it No, it's really it's kind of really hard to you. Okay, if you were in the top in the turret What is the murder that you're like? Let's have some fucking fun. Oh, I'm killing James blood. Oh I'm killing James blood. That's I think we're like that's personal and then number one She falls down those stairs and falls right back up of again. It's my random heart Lover. Yeah more of this. Yeah more slew thing more puzzling more honesty more crying more crucifix more being like Oh, I just actually met a kindred spirit that wants to have fun and I'm sad they're gone more real Yes, yeah more more of that. There's something about this series. It's like The the traitors are playing as faithfuls, which kind of means that a lot of their moves seem quite Considerate of the faithfuls. Yeah, I think what we're losing is that Killer instinct and the audacity that makes other traitors feel so iconic and so daring They've played and I mean obviously after the high mania of Richard E. Grant the traitors have played very very safe very They've got the willies. Maybe they got a bit shook. They played a dull game. Well, I also think Hiring new traitors and then getting kicked out is a really stressful strategy because you're just in getting more people in that You don't know if you could trust enough every other week every other day So they don't want that but at the same time you can't be coming into the traitors now and thinking they just want me to stay to the end And share the money with me. Yeah, I do think it was a little bit of Because they're all celebrity buddy buddy a lot of people will be like oh, I just want them to have a good game Oh, oh, he's a fan so we should keep him in longer so he can enjoy it Yes, really polite and I think it's a second seasoned syndrome where they know Was anyone dathedly but Ross was playing a played a big game? Ross camp. No Johnson Ross played a big game. Yeah, he was what we needed because he he was he was clanging against the walls But we don't have the big dog we've got sheen who is if he had been a traitor would be Just so nice about it was Alan card dastardly no, but he was like Who's the ones from wacky racers that the laughing dog money like there's something kind of like so disarming and Stupid about him being a traitor that it's just entertaining. Yeah, where was these traitors? It's just treading so carefully I would do. Oh, please do. We're do it. Oh, please do Um, the NASA Instagram account. Wow. Yeah, when it hard. It's just good space I actually had to argue with the guy it did a yesterday because he said space wasn't cool Why would anyone say that it it? I was just like you lose Yeah, it's big enough or unfathomable. He was like he was doing that boring. Oh, we've got enough problems on earth Yeah, escape them go to space. Yeah, it's you may at this dinner. Yeah, anyway Anyway, but that's it's boring man guys be boring at dinner Um, that's it is to go. Okay. It's really good cool pitch space also crucially I think it's a powerful enough thing in your algorithm It starts tracking it over space stuff. No, it's cool. Yeah, it's very very cool It's the coolest place ever exactly. It never gets boring. It's like dinosaurs exactly Anyway, what you got this weekend. It was freeze weekend And there's lots of hard openings and I went to see Sallamontore at the calltold which was stunning We got there late and then they were really annoyed that me and my husband and my baby were there And she was like running around the sticky fingers But they let us in to a completely packed gallery which conversely was some of the most tender beautiful Touching lonely paintings. I've never seen it's stunning the works those stunning. Wow he it's about immigration and Technology and being gay all of my favorite things. Yeah, it's really really the biggest three find a time to go And not be on your phone like it's that is I wish all my recommendations were like not screen Not screening Anyway, you should open up a screen to watch how to with Joel Wilson. Okay. I've never heard of it So like him the tour mantela He's sort of like a contemporary for Nathan and he does this amazing documentary series where he It started with him recording all this incredible raw footage around New York and stitching it together Into these amazing episodes and when he gets more confident as it goes into series three He has this amazing trick of just asking people when they open up to him on camera Whether they're going somewhere next can I come with you? So like a party bus he ends up all this amazing trip to Burning Man And he's got a film coming out who knows when it's gonna be fucking distributed over here called The history of concrete that I'm very excited about so to get ahead of that Watch your back in time. Yeah, my other one is to catch a thief. Have you read it? No, it's one of the best books I've ever read it's set on the French Riviera and A retired cat burglar is is living there and somebody starts doing cat burglaries that mimic his M.I Okay, so the police are like we know it's you and he's like it's not me And then his job is to find out who it is by working out where he would rob next gorgeous going there Very cool. It's brilliant. Okay, I'm into that. Yeah, okay Hitchcock film, but read the book first Yeah, read a read a dab book for ones. We do love a little bit of Hitchcock That is all we've got time for this week episode six wrapped if you want to get in contact with us We are Raven and Joe at bbc.co.uk. I would like to hear what you think about girls Should it come back? Are you excited? Are you worried? Where's it gonna go? What do you want Rey to do in his episode? Are you the one person who's gonna go and see the allergy movie? Let's know. Are you gonna see allergy? Please tell us what it's like. If you listen, I'll podcast up. I yeah Please give us a nice review. It's always helpful and Give us a subscribe over on the BBC sounds app as well. That's that's a nice thing You can do for your old pal Joel. That's it. We're over. You're being banished. Am I being murdered? I see you next Thursday. I see you next Thursday Do you want to start? Shall I? Ladies, please. So I tracked taking a look at the things we've loved and not loved in music We also get distracted in the best way possible as a roof as a roof for a custom George Michael lived next door but one. He came round and when he came into the back garden, he was like, "Oh my God, Annie Mac." George Michael in a towering row, playing the house tunes that his mates have made in Kate Moss's house. Side tracks. With Annie McManus and Nick Grimshaw. Listen on BBC Sounds. This week on the interface, millions of kids have grown up on camera with their childhood turned into content. For our take, join me, Jess Maddox. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.