Giannis Traded! Boston’s Future, Early Signings, Draft Thoughts, and More!

[MUSIC] >> Coming up on the Zacklow Show, it's been a whirlwind for me, but I'm back. My first pitch at City Field got rained out, we're rescheduling it. Then I got to watch Croatia and the World Cup. A lot of stuff happened in the NBA. We are going to hit all of it. Janis, the heat, the bucks, who won the trade? Who lost the trade? Boston, what is the fallout for them? Should they have gone all the way? Why didn't they go all the way? What happens now with Jalen Brown? Kirk Goldsbury is here to help me sort through all that plus tray young. All the deals that have happened. Austin Reeves just happened today. We talked about that or was agreed to today. We talk about the Suns deals, CJ McCollum, Dusty Mayes, the head coach, Micah Norris, the head coach in Portland. Oh, just a whirlwind of stuff already happening in the NBA. And then Jonathan Gavoni, the master of the draft, we react to the first round. What didn't happen? What didn't happen? Darren Peterson going too. Do you talk to Bansa going one to Washington and on down from there? Some of the trade talks that didn't really lead to much. But what was going on a little bit behind the scenes? He picked some winters and losers. Some interesting picks. How did Milwaukee do with their extra lottery pick? We get into all of that as the NBA moves in. To offseason mode, free agency will be here before you know it. That's all coming up on the Zack Lo Show. Welcome to the Zack Lo Show, where I am back from the triumphant Croatia win in the World Cup. And at Nightmare Travel, they finally ready to talk about all the stuff that's happened in the NBA, Yannis, the draft, Austin Reeves, the Celtics, tons of other stuff. Kirk Goldsbury is here. How you doing, bud? I'm great, Zach. It's great to be with you so much to talk about. Not only an MVP caliber player traded, but obviously the NBA draft. It's great to be with you, buddy. And Austin Reeves, news just broke that he is resigning at a four year max deal with the Lakers. A similar in scope and cost a little bit lower to the four year max deal. That the Wizards have signed with Trey Young. What? We'll get to that later. We have to start with the honest attendant who was finally traded to the Miami Heat. Not the Boston Celtics. Dylan Brown is still on the Celtics. Oh god. And not anybody else. It was really those two teams in the end as various playoff fates and team decisions. Dispersed never came in. The Thunder never came in. The Rockets so much surprisingly never came in. The Magic never seriously came in. And then Yannis and the Knicks obviously never came in. And then Yannis sort of indicated to anyone who might come in. No, no, no, no. You might not want to trade your best assets because these are the places that I want to sign. And he put his thumb on the scale, at least a little bit. And the bucks come away with. Let me make sure I get all of it. In exchange for Yannis and Bobby Portis, pointedly. Tyler Hero. Collel Ware. Hi, my honk is junior. Casper is Yaka Chonis. Three first round picks including the number 13 picking yesterday's draft, which I used on Nate Amen. A one pick swap and one second rounder. The heat notably Mr. Goldsbury. Get Yannis. Get Portis. And actually did not trade all the swaps that they could trade to Milwaukee. And depending on how they write the language of a first round pick that they owe Charlotte next year, actually could have another first round pick or like half of a first round pick to trade. And that's notable to me because norm powell is an unrestricted phrase. The heat are hardcapped at the first April and they're only like 18, 19 million below it. That's not going to be enough for norm powell who has hooders around the league. There may be a chance where the heat attached some of those draft assets to Yovitch's contract return a lesser salary player and return and open up a little more space because norm powell suddenly looms as one of the key pieces of the off season. I want to start with the bucks. Because although they did pretty well here given the circumstances and I think they did, I think the phrase given the circumstances is indicative of everyone involved in this just mismanagement, mismanaged it, including the bucks who mismanaged it right until the very end. I mean, there's a larger story burbling underneath the surface here of how unwieldy this Milwaukee bucks ownership structure with the equal votes and the rotating governorships has been. Yeah. It's about Edons and Mark Ladsbury brought the team. I think I heard a lot about just Edons and Jimmy Haslum not seeing eye to eye on this and in that kind of paralyzing the trade talks in the end. Like that's been a problem for a while. But given the circumstances, I just think one of the fundamental things is the bucks waited a year too long to do this. And I think that's really the only like wait too long period that you can ding them for. So I thought Kirk it was fitting in a lot of ways, almost poetic, that just came down to the heat and the Celtics. Two teams that Yannis and the Bucks cross paths with some of the more pivotal moments of his career. If you will go back to me with me to 2022, 2021, the Bucks win the title, that's it. Yannis did everything you ever wanted. Everything should have been good will for life, this didn't have to get complicated. It didn't have to be messy. It didn't have to be any of these things. They got the title first one in 50 years. Great playoff run with stood injury, four straight wins over Phoenix, emphatic all you from Drew Holley that goes down as one of the most iconic plays in basketball history. Done. Next year, they take the Celtics to seven games in the second round without Chris Middleton. And I came away and the Celtics came away. At least people I know with the Celtics. From that series, in 2022 thinking, oh my god, I don't want to see that dude again in a playoff series for a long time. Because without his wingman and his second best player, they took us to the hill and he punished us physically. And it looked very much like he was ready to stamp himself. It's like I am the best player in the NBA. And since that second round loss, the Bucks and Yannis have won zero playoff series. And the next season was the nightmare against the heat where Yannis misgames was not 100% but mismanaged the clock. Jimmy Butler destroyed Drew Holley day and the Bucks in 2023 lose in the first round. That's the real first like, ooh, pivot point of is Yannis going to be here long term. And the Bucks decided, yes, he's going to be here long term. He had two years left. In theory, you could have said that's when they could have traded him. I actually don't think that's fair. He did have two years left on his contract for agency. So his trade value would have been high. But I think the Bucks rightly believed, this is still too early. Like we're still too good. We're coming off like a title and then a pretty inspiring playoff run against Boston. Flushed this trade for Dame, which then gets Yannis to ink the next extension. Which is a trade that although it didn't work out, I will defend the process of it like all day. I thought it was a good trade then. I didn't work. I still think it was the right idea. And then that buys him another couple of years. It was really last summer when Dame towards Achilles and the writing was on the wall that that's when they should have moved him with another year left on his contract. More trade suitors, more valued. So when I say they did okay given the circumstances, I think it's obvious that they waited a year too long. Don't you think? I think they did okay given that it's June 2026. But I liked how you framed it up. June 2021 to June 2026. I think they fumbled the bag in this five year window which included as you referenced an ownership shift that was awkward, a coach transition or two that have not been great. You always pick me because we've talked about this team so many times together. The draft history in that five year window is trash. This team has fumbled the bag. And by the bag, I mean, Yannis Nantes Tacumpo, one of the best players in the league. His prime is that five year window. Kudos to him. Drew Holiday, Mike Fudenholzer, all of the Chris Middleton. They did bring that franchise their first title in 50 years or whatever it was. But the last five years have been a disaster in my opinion with one of the best assets the league has. So okay, up to June 2026. I think this is as good as they could have done. And I actually like the deal from Milwaukee's perspective. It's going to suck to go through this rebuild. Don't get me wrong. They get all those picks you referenced. And then they get players like Tyler Harrow can turn into picks or a pick if they're already getting interest from other teams reportedly on Tyler Harrow. And I think this is as bad as good as you can get. We've seen high caliber players get traded in recent years for less than this. And I think that puts them in a good position to start a rebuild. It's not going to be fun. It's not going to be great to watch on league pass. But I think it's better than doing the Jalen Brown thing with less draft capital, which was really the only other reported option for them. So I think the Milwaukee bucks find themselves in sort of a depressed state. But they can look at this transaction very narrowly. I think it'd be be satisfied. I think they can look at the last five years with a lot of regret, Zach. Well, that's how I'd frame it up. Yeah, I mean, a couple of things happen for them. They whiffed in the draft, Middleton just his body broke down and they traded him for Kuzma and that was a disaster. And just it was like drip, drip, drip. And then the Dame Miles Turner thing was franchise suicide. I mean, that was just like inexplicable at the moment it happened. And now they are where they are. They don't control any of their own first round picks until 2031. I do think they made the correct decision between these two offers, give it. that Boston was not willing to load up their offer with all the picks and young players that Milwaukee asked for. And we'll get to that. The Miami picks, I think, are more valuable than the Boston picks, starting with 13 in this draft versus 27 in this draft. Huge difference there. And I think just like given Yannis's injury history and aging curve and the fact that he and BAM are going to have to kind of work out a little bit of their fit together, particularly at offense, undefense fine. On offense, it's going to be interesting. I think those picks in 2031 and 2033, again, depending on who knows what the lottery rules are going to be then. Let's say they're similar to what this new system is going to be. I think those picks probably have more upside, even though you can tell me what the heat never tank. They heat never rebuild with it. Boston's in a pretty, and I think a relatively stronger position than the heat are, but that's hard to project. As for the players, I like that they got Yaka-chonus in the end. I think he's interesting. He shot it well last year. He's very creative. You can spin him as like another first run. I mean, if you spin this the right way and you flip hero for like a pick in three seconds or something, you'd be like, we got like six first round picks out of this. Haka is fine. He's a good player. I think that's basically what he is. He's a good fifth, sixth, seventh guy, you know, six man of the year, obviously runner up. Where is the swing piece to me? I've always been higher on cluelware than Eric Spulstra appears to be. So I'm not in there seeing the work habits and the response at adversity. I do see the occasional missed boxouts, the occasional, uh oh, I shouldn't have chased that block shot. And now my guy's going to get the rebound decision making all that. Maybe a few too many threes for everyone's liking now. And then I'm tantalized by the skill set. And I like the upside bet on him. Amen. We'll see hero. I just don't think is long for the bucks one way or another. And I don't think he should be. This team's going to be awful next year. And interestingly, there's this sort of bizarre reverse incentive that now the nets and the bucks have of, you know, this relegation zone where if you're one of the three worst teams in the league, you can't pick your you get you get docked lottery odds. And so teams are theoretically going to be competing not to be in the relegation zone. The bucks don't care. Like they're they don't control their first round pick. So if they are in the relegation zone, well, that's, you know, that's like Portland's problem or whoever controls their pitch in the next couple of years. So I don't really think they care. They're going to be awful. But the bottom line is they didn't get a blue blue chip asset here, right? Like, amen. Is it nice moon shot at one? Where's a nice moon shot at one? The most likely outcome is this turned into like a pretty good poo poo platter, which is slightly disappointing considering you don't control your own draft picks and your ability to rebuild. But given the circumstances and the predicament that they put themselves in really by waiting this long and being so stubborn about it, they did all right. And I agree with you, I think I'd rather have the, I don't think I'd rather have this than jail and brown earning 65 million dollars a year at age 29. And the sort of allure of well, hey, you know, like we can be mediocre in this new lottery world. We don't control our own picks. But still, I think they made the right choice here. Let's go to Miami. Here's where Miami stands now. People are penciling in their starting five is David on Mitchell, North Powell, Andrew Wiggins, Bam and Yannis. Let's just not, let's just be clear. Like, North Powell may very well not be on the team next year. He's going to have shooters around the league, including the cap space teams like Detroit can open up cap space. Chicago has cap space. I think a shooter in Chicago would be awesome for the Caleb Wilson Bozellas giddy thing that they're back going on now. I think even the Lakers could look at him as a shooter, although they're having recent reads. I don't think that that is a great, a great fit for them. And then off the bench, they have Hello, Larsen, Drew Smith, Bobby Portis, Yovic, no real backup five to speak of unless you count Portis. And I've seen this back and forth. I'm like, oh, the heat have no depth. And then some people, like I saw Sam DeCene, who's extremely smart, say, I don't understand why people are saying the heat have no depth. Look at all these names. And you just name those guys that I'm like, okay, Drew Smith basically hasn't been able to play in a playoff series. Yovic, like hasn't been able to play in the regular season. Sometimes let alone a playoff series. Portis, aging defensive liability. Can he be on the floor with both Bam and Yannis? The box kind of went away from that triple big lineup, but their biggest big brook Lopez is like the walking dinosaur compared to the the heat guys. So maybe that's workable. Maybe not. Larsen's all right. Like I like him. And then it's Kishada Johnson and my and the gardener, kid who I really like to in spot minutes. But I'm worried about the depth. I think Powell leaving is a massive significant roadblock to them being like a real contender. And I'm also worried that like Bam and Yannis are pretty duplicative on offense. I know that Bam shoots three's now. I don't think any team is like really upset when he shoots a lot of three. He's an okay three point shooter. I think this is going to be a good team. They have a chance to be a delicious defensive team. You know, maybe Wiggins opts out and takes a lesser number. And that helps him with Powell too. I think if they keep Powell, it's it's a pretty interesting team. I just don't I don't know if I see contender contender here. And given what they gave up, I would like your your obvious goal here is to contender right away. Yannis is a really great player. I think he's probably the fourth or fifth fifth best player in the league now. I think to doplicativeness with Bam worries me a little bit and the depth worries me a little bit. And I don't know, man, I don't I don't see like title contender right off the bat here. You didn't even bring up the thing I'm most worried about for Miami, which is Yannis's age and health. In the last few years, left calf strain, right knee, tendinopathy, left calf strain again, every playoff left. Every playing right calf strain. I did a huge piece for the ringer on calf strains and what the hell's going on. And one of the experts I talk to Zach Loes said, you know what the biggest predictor of a calf strain is in the NBA? It's a previous calf strain. And unfortunately he's on that sort of conveyor belt of soft tissue injuries, lower body injuries that we've seen sort of plague the NBA disproportionately plague older players. Another crazy stat I have for you among the 25 most active postseason players. This playoffs, guess how many were 32 or over? Yannis turns 32 this December. Zach Loe, only two of the 25 leading minutes players in the postseason we just watched are 32 or over. Can you name them? I don't believe in the spot. We've all had our Canadian adventures to bias Harris who's 33 and James Harden. The other guys in that 25 most minutes played in these playoffs are younger dudes. When you expand that list to 50, it's only five guys. This is a league that is very on top 50 minutes players in this postseason. Total minutes played only five or 32 and over to bias Harris, James Harden, Harris and Barnes. You see that all? I don't think so. Harris and Barnes is that old. Okay. But there's a few reasons for this that I think are relevant here. One is the way we're playing basketball. The frequency we wish we're playing basketball is really hard on bodies. The way Yannis plays basketball is very hard on his body. And I think it's disproportionately harder on older players. The other thing that I think is very relevant for that stat is it's very hard to achieve depth in this CBA era when you are paying one player over that age that much money. Because this is a league that insists on reserving its biggest paychecks for dudes who are on the wrong side of their prime. And then the second apron and now the aprons that Miami is dealing with. Now you have this big Yannis, you know, big, big chunk on your cap sheet. So finding depth that you're alluding to is almost engineered to be very difficult if you have one of these players on your cap sheet. And I couldn't agree more. They need Norman Powell, not just because he's a very good player. This is a roster now that is a very, very obvious weakness from the three-point line. If they lose Norman Powell, I don't know who on that team is going to make threes to keep up with any other good teams in this league. They're counting on Larson. And I like Pell Larson a lot. It's just it's a lot to count on. Just like I like Smith is a bench guy. I think he's had snippets of good minutes in the NBA. He's recovered from serious injury and all of that. I'd like to see him play in the playoffs, right? Like I like Yovic. I've always like Yovic again, more than Spodos. Spodos and trust him. And it's obvious by his rotation patterns. And so people are like, well, they still have Yovic. You mean the Yovic who just they didn't play in the playoffs at all or the play-in or wherever the hell they finished their season. So, you know, I think the depth is I fall on the side of the depth is a little worrisome and they're going to have to do some heat magic to magic up some depth. Look, they're going to be like if Yannis is healthy and bam is healthy, they're going to be a good team. I don't think there is going to be the next. And I don't think there is probably as good as Boston, although TBD on Boston. And the East is like, you know, Cleveland could go up or down. The Hawks could go up or down. The Sixers could go up or down or Lando's probably going to be a little better. Like the pistons are probably up up. Indiana's back, right? Yeah. Yannis is a force and he and bam together are just going to put the kind of pressure on the rim that the heat have not. And ironically, the Celtics have not put on the rim in a long, long time. And and defensively it's going to be a beast, but, you know, know, I saw, I think Jared Dubin had something like, you know, the baseline for contention is like top 10 offense, top 10 defense in the heat, she'd be able to achieve that. And that's like true in a very basic way, but there's a difference between like number two on offense and number seven on defense and number 10 on offense and number six on defense or number seven on defense. Like the ladder is closer to just like a good, a good team. I want to go the other way though is like, okay, so if the heat don't do this, it's and this is a team that's missed out on Durant and Lillard and even going back to Gordon Hayward like star after star after star has they've they've had this hero package turned down over and over again. What are they like what is the other path? Because I think it's very clear that this present team was topped out at like, okay, play in team mid 40s team if things go better, mid 40s wins team. So like what are we doing here at least this gives us a shot, a shot to be a contender whereas the present state did not really give us a shot at being a tender now. The present state, they had most of their draft picks and they had all these young players. And even if they didn't believe and I think they were correct to probably not believe that this collection of young players surrounded by BAM and hero was going to develop into like a 55 win title, I think that's correct on their part. Having them around gives them the flexibility to do another move that's like the next version of this honest move to at least try it. And then you go through and like I made a list of who are the next theoretical next stars that the heat could go chase right because that's the opportunity cost is like we've lost the chance to build up this team and pivot somewhere else. And it's like I don't know who it is you could be waiting for ever is it Donovan Mitchell he seems to be always tied to Miami and also always staying in Cleveland. Is it Devon Booker on a gigantic contract doesn't seem like it. Is it whoever falls out of OKC is any one of the stars going to fall out of OKC. I don't know is it Scotty Barnes probably not as a jail in Johnson is it Luca probably not probably not you just come up with probably not the hot name would be Anthony Edwards. And I saw I think it was Tim McMay and said you know the vultures are circling around Anthony Edwards. I didn't mention this at the time. The single most talked about thing at the draft combine in May this year was this these rumblings that these rumblings that everyone in Minnesota was watching the purse strings under Mark Laurie and a rod and how they would and how they would spend around Anthony Edwards. Not just cap wise like this Julius Randall dump that they did this year. But just like the way that they ran the team on a day to day basis. And there were rumblings like oh man and and might be looking around and might be looking around and I poop and I didn't mention it because I called dance people and was told not to ignore that everything's fine. Now the vultures are circling things out again and it's out publicly via Tim. That would be the one and I just don't I feel like that's you could wait forever on these things and never get them. So I understand why I made did it. They're just kind of between like a rock and a hard place. Do you think. You know, I think they're in a rock and a hard place. John Moran's the other name that had crossed my mind. I haven't done that in that in the math. So what if we're just watching late stage, Riley is them. What if we're just watching one of the great executives of this century, no, no notes. But a man who's built his teams with two of the three team building tools, trades and free agency. When you look at press the and Brian right in San Antonio and these other sort of newer younger teams, they're clearly building through the draft first although she obviously was a trade piece. But if there's just this is just they're running out of ideas. They're still trying to build a team like it's 2010 and everybody's going to take their talents to South Beach and free agency. And those tools just aren't really happening nearly as much. And this is the best they can do. I think we both agree here and I would push back on Jared Dupin's point. I don't see a top 10 offense with this group. I don't know way. Not with the way that teams are going to be able to pack the paint and defend it. It is respectful to the other 10 offenses that I could rattle off right now that I think could be there in the current MBA. Very interesting. I don't see a top 10 offense there. I just don't, I mean, I'm the analyst guy. I don't see the three point shooting getting to the number or they need to be. That said, I think they're a guard away here and whether it's Norman Powell or, you know, Romaran, they need something else. I heard somebody else say, I think this makes them a contender to being a contender. I think that's the way I like to look at it that way. This is like they were two steps away from being a really good team now. To be fair, if Jan is as healthy, I still think they're one step away. Who is the third really good player on that team? But I don't know given the team building constraints and realities of the CBA and the caps and the aprons that they have to navigate that they can actually do what Pat Riley is great at doing is getting the third guy to sign up here. There is an interesting thing of the extensions and the prevalence of extensions sort of taking the big market clear all our cap space out and sign star free agents playbook kind of out of the league a little bit. And I think Miami's feeling that and the Lakers are going to feel that to some degree. But my point is just like, I get the desperation because this team had maxed out. And this idea that we can, and this is going to come up in the Boston section, we can kind of hold our cards and wait for a better, like we can hold our cards and try to do what the Nick's did, which is make four different trades that build out the perfect team. That's really hard to do. And one of them was a five first round pick trade for McHale Bridges, which was a huge risk or just wait for like the next star where you can always be out bid where you don't know if that next star is going to be available or pushed to go to you. And that's why I brought up the ant thing, which competing in tell on that, but I would assume, you know, anything that happens there is years down the road too. Let's take a quick break and talk about the Boston side of this. This episode is brought to you by Michelop Ultra. I'll read you for the FIFA World Cup 26 every decision matters here, even yours because Michelop Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26 is giving you a chance to win a million dollars worth of tickets and prizes. Michelop Ultra from the pitch to the poor superior is worth playing for. Enter now at Michelop Ultra dot com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26. Michelop Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 superior access. No purchase necessary open to US residents, 21 plus begins on December 1st, 2025 and ends on July 31, 2026. Multiple entry periods visit, www dot Michelop Ultra dot com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry entry deadlines, prizes and details. So we agree that Miami is a good team, but probably not as of now a contender. I liked it. You said a contender to be a contender because I think the other narrative I've heard about Miami that is far too extreme is, oh, Yannis went from the bucks to another version of the bucks. I'm like, no, this seems going to be better than like whatever the hell last season's bucks were trying to be. And we agree on that. We agree that the bucks more or less did, okay, what happens here is completely TBD based on who they draft and how they trade and all that. And it's a ground up rebuild that I'm sure the front office was rooting for in between these two different packages like this gives them a runway and a timeline and sort of a long term like, hey, let us work our magic for a few years. Then there's the Celtics who based on the public reporting based on what I've heard sniffing around appeared to have been willing to do something like Jalen Brown number 27, another first round pick, maybe another like swap or something, but we're not willing to do what it would have taken, which is probably Jalen Brown, three first round picks, and at least one, if not two of their young core players, including Hugo Gonzalez and maybe Baylor Shireman. So there's this sort of notion that like if you want Yannis bad enough to offer Jalen Brown into a first round picks, you really draw the line at Hugo Gonzalez and Baylor Shireman, like that's the line for you where it becomes too much. So before we get to the Jalen Brown fallout, I want to ask you, what do you think of Boston's decision to hold the line there of like, okay, we think we might need Yannis. We might need his room pressure to diversify our offense. We never get to the room. We never get to the line. Our formula appears to have worn thin in the playoffs. We might need him. We need him this much, but this much is too much to pay. What do you think of that? I think it's fine. I actually applaud them for it. I think if I'm rooting against the Celtics, I would want them to blow it up and try Yannis, because I just don't, I don't know, watching the style of the Boston Celtics, how they play, how fast the ball moves and the shooting and all that. It just feels like Yannis would slow down a lot of that mizzoula ball action. Yannis is a very unique offensive player, right, to build an offense around him. I think Bud did a great job six, seven years ago. I think keeping the young core together is great. I mean, the best assets in today's NBA's Acklow are the young cost-controlled players, like the guys who can contribute above their number. And the guys that meet more. walk you want to Hugo and Shireman and in those types of players, not willing to part with them because that's called depth. I'm fine with that. There's a walk away number there. The real question I want to ask you and I think the league is asking, is the relationship, does this mean the relationship with the Boston Celtics and Jalen Brown is broken now? I think that's the real danger they just walked into and Brad Stevens has a potential crisis on his hand with, is Jalen Brown now done? You know, FU, you dangled me out here. I'm the only finals MVP this century, not named Paul Pierce. And now you're going to trade me for another guy. And I'm not taking sides there. I'm just saying, this is an ego business. You've heard that a thousand times. Do you think, Zach Lowe, that the Boston Celtics now have a Jalen Brown problem on their hands? So it's interesting because I mentioned the opportunity cost and the optionality that the heat sort of threw away, not in a bad way, but that the choices they face, the forks in the road, the different paths they could have visioned by choosing Yannis. The same thing kind of applies in Boston. And it's not just that Hugo Gonzales by himself is the deal breaker and Baylor Shireman plus Hugo, it's objectively kind of silly that they would actually be the deal breakers to a Yannis deal. It's just the totality reaches a point where you are choosing between all of that stuff for Yannis plus Tatum, plus whatever is Derek White, that core that's left over. You're choosing between that world and the current world where we repair the relationship with Jalen Brown. And we have all of this stuff still, and this is a proven unlike the heat 55, 56, 58 win team, or see like we still have the optionality to trade Jalen Brown or trade this, all this other stuff for another star somewhere down the line. And I think those two roads like the status quo and the optionality of different kind of trade paths in Boston's stronger current position, I think mitigated against the totality of all that stuff for Yannis. I will say I've heard from a couple of Eastern Conference executives who are like the opposite of you on rival teams being like, Yannis and Tatum was pretty scary and we're glad Yannis didn't go there. I'm like, well, other, if other teams are expressively did maybe Boston make a mistake, but I get it because their president is stronger than Miami's president and they keep that and they keep the future open. And Yannis is 31 and injury prone and he would have solved a lot of their problems offensively, but he would have caused them a lot of depth and and and been an injury or let's go ahead. So what do I say? And one more thing when I think of the two players at the center of the current discussion, Yannis and Jalen Brown, I think of potential extension issues, right? And the other thing with Yannis is he's eligible for a four year 275 million dollar extension that will go into his best eligible. He's getting it. He's getting it. And do you want to pay him $70 million for his year 33, year 34, year 35, year 36? That's a real question. And I know it's nerdy and I know it's annoying, but with his injury history and the rules of the collective bargaining landscape, it's team building catastrophe if you get it wrong. And I think the same sort of challenge is facing the Celtics with Jalen Brown. And maybe the better move is a package with Jalen Brown that gets them younger, not older in this sense and gets them away from another looming extension, which is Jalen Browns. By the way, you mentioned finals MVP. There's sort of been two finals MVPs traded for each other. That has to be like a unicorn event in the NBA. So I mentioned Boston part of sort of rejecting Yannis or rejecting going on in free. Yannis is faith in its present. Well, a lot of its present is Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum together. And they've proven that they can win a championship. They did. They won a championship. And they were a great team last year until they went off the rails a little bit in the playoffs and obviously Tatum didn't play game seven. I wonder in the aftermath of this, if that present no longer exists, because it feels like the toothpaste is too far out of the two with Jalen Brown. And if you told ask me right now on June 24th at 410 PM Eastern time after it took me three hours to go home from the Gordia, I don't think Jalen Brown starts the season with the Celtics next year. That could end up being wrong. I'm not saying it definitively. I'm saying if you made me bet, yes or no, Jalen Brown is a Celtic next year. I'm betting no. I think too much has happened. There are too many hard feelings. The hard feelings already, like the twitch stuff already sort of wrinkled. It just didn't wrinkle anyone. It just sort of put out into the world this, you know, does he want his own team? And if so, what team is that? And how does Jason Tatum and the Celtics feel about that? He makes a ton of money. Is it also given that he's 29 years old? This is not four years ago when it was a young Jalen Brown for an old Kevin Durand. This is now a 29 year old jumper. I'm not old, but approaching the sort of peak slash end of his prime, is it time to actually sell high on Jalen Brown one way or another? And if you don't think Yannis is the vehicle to do that, there are other ways to do it. Here's the challenge. The Celtics should be operating from a mode of we're trying to win the championship every year that Jason Tatum is here. And every year that we have this core that's done it before. Is there a Jalen Brown deal that's not this Yannis deal that yes resets us financially, which is important. Yes gets us some picks and some young players or whatever, but also doesn't make us materially worse in 2026, 2027 and 2027, 2028. I don't know that there is. I'm happy to go through with you, but I think this is one of the big looming stories of the offseason is, have we reached the end of Jalen Brown on the Celtics? There's a great old twilight zone episode. I'll try to do this fast, but it's the nuclear era. And these two families are very close. They live next to each other, but only one of the families that glow has a fallout shelter. And sure enough, the air raid sirens start going off and one family goes into their fallout shelter. And the other family is desperately knocking trying to get into the fallout shelter. And the families that are very close, the first family won't let them in. And I bring that up because the air raid sirens stop going off and everybody comes out of the fallout shelter at the end of the episode and the families are just looking at each other. Like that feels like Jalen Brown and the Boston Celtics right now. And and and I heard Danny Greene with big woes earlier being like, this is just disrespectful. And you don't have to agree with this. And I talked to some Celtics fans today that like it's not disrespectful. You're you're being traded for the one of the best players in the league. And it's fair for fans to say that. But from a player's perspective, this is disrespectful to be dangled like that. And sometimes it's a matter of facts act that these these these relationships are damaged beyond repair because of this stuff. And I'm not saying this is I I know for sure there's some fraying that's happened. But it's why I asked Bill and I did it just tongue in cheek just to be the devil's advocate two weeks ago on his pod. I said, let's posit that you are trading one of the jays for Janice. Why is it just assumed that it's Jalen Brown and not Jason Tatum? Why is Jason Tatum coming off in Achilles injury? Still like we have to say still he sat out game seven. We're not quite sure exactly what happened. Like why is he automatically a better player than Jalen Brown right now? Even though I think Jason Tatum is a better player than Jalen Brown. He clearly has been a better player than Jalen Brown. But I'm putting myself in the position of Jalen Brown and being like, wait a second, I'm the finals MVP. I'm the Eastern conference finals MVP. I'm the guy who just carried this team to 56 wins without Jason Tatum. He hasn't done that. Yeah, he's made first team all NBAs. I haven't done that. He's been ahead of me in the packing order rightfully. So he's a better shooter, probably a better playmaker, probably a better defender too. But like, but, but is he still? Is he still? And I asked the question tongue in cheek. But if I'm Jalen Brown, I'm like, at some point, yeah, sure, it's Kevin Durant. It's Anthony Davis maybe back in the day. It's a big, it's who it's, it's, and now it's Yannis, like, it's great. It's an honor just to be nominated. But like, I thought I won the Oscar already. Like, I thought I had done enough to not be in these discussions. And so I don't know, man, I think it's, I think it's going to be interesting. You want to hear some fake Jalen Brown trades? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. Fake Jalen Brown trades. No, I'm not good at that like you and Bill. All right. I'll just go through some possibilities. I don't even know where to start. I mean, the Clippers, I don't think, let me, let me, let me, like, Bill had mentioned the Clippers as a third team. And the number five pick I said all along. I think I was in the lottery room when the Clippers got that pick. I never thought for one second they were trading it. I thought from, from the very beginning, they understood what a gift from the basketball gods and the lottery gods. For us, who traded our way out of control of our own picks and perpetuity, who gave Sam Presti a freaking timeshare and our franchise, basically, what a gift for us to get a shot at a blue chip reset young guy. I just never thought they were trading it. So they're out. Bill has mentioned the Pelicans a lot with Tray Murphy, you know, and like, you can build, You can build a million different Pelicans combinations and just like do they are they desperate? to get a franchise player, etc. I mean, sure, I don't, I don't necessarily see those timetables lining up. Portland was mentioned a lot as the third team, including by me. I liked the idea of Jalen Brown to Portland, Janis to Boston assets, including Milwaukee's own picks back from Portland to Milwaukee. Portland has a lot of flexibility. And you could say, Hey, look, Klingon, Danny, like these are like Danny, particularly as a win now kind of player, like, like at some point, we got to just give ourselves a shot, like just, Hey, if we get lucky and we get some injuries to the other teams, maybe we're in a game six against San Antonio, Oklahoma City and not completely outclass. Maybe, um, they control most of their picks. I don't, I don't know if they love the Danny Jalen fit. I think that's interesting. Houston is just keeps surprising me that they don't come up in any of this talk. Oh, that's a good one. I have, I frankly have, have not heard that they're super into Jalen Brown. That could change, but that's what I've heard for now. You could do a mobily for Jalen Brown swap with the calves. Um, I feel like the calves aren't going to be ready for that. Ditto for like the magic pick one of the stars in, in Orlando. I just, it's, it's a little seismic. I'll tell you one I really like, um, Michael Porter junior, uh, and some nets draft picks to Boston or some draft assets that the net's control rather, let's say to Boston for Jalen Brown. And the nets get a dose of like relevance that they desperately need. They have a 9,000 young guards and they're going to be bad again. I don't know what their appetite for relevance immediately is, uh, again, relegation zone sort of plays into this and they don't control their picks. So they're in that same box like, hey, we were relegated, we're relegated. Doesn't that our problem? Rockets problem. Um, you know, people talked about the Kings for a long time. I just again, you could, you could do Keegan Murray and whatever they were never going to trade the seventh pick for Jalen Brown. That's too crazy. Even for the Kings. It's, it's not, it's not, and, and Atlanta is the other one because Jalen is from Atlanta and making the money match is not that easy for the Hawks. Like Kaminga at 24, three would have to be in it. I mean, do you do Kaminga and Dyson Daniels in a million picks? Do you do Kaminga and Reese's Shay and Kispert and a million picks? Is that even interesting for Boston? Like, it's not as easy as you would think to build a Hawks deal. So I'm interested, like, I know there's interest in Jalen Brown. I'm interested if they actually do it. What's the trade that helps them reset the finances, restock for the future and doesn't harm them in the short term because I'm having trouble finding one, but those are my best shots. Any other, any others? Strike your fancy? Yeah. I know that, you know, Dallas seems interesting to me because they have new leadership. They have front court players that could be interesting to a team that, you know, I think lost largely because of a smaller front court against the bigger team. And now you're looking at the Sixers who just beat you and then Carl Anthony Towns and the, and the Knicks. Nothing jumps out. I've heard Portland to your point. We've heard Portland. I've heard the Clippers. I don't know. I don't know. I've actually heard Atlanta doesn't love Jalen Brown in the past, but anything is possible. This is a guy who, what, he finished fifth in the MPP voting, right? Fifth, uh, fifth or sixth this year? I don't know how the Clippers are doing it, honestly. They have all this like, expiring flots on that's not going to be interesting to Boston. They have Garland who's not going to be interesting to Boston with paid and prohibited Derek White already there. They have Kauai, which is just a whole can of worms and, you know, Wattel lifted Rosen and Kat still tying up the billable hours. Did they interview you yet, Kirk? I mean, they wait for them to call me. It's June 24th, Wattel. What are we doing, man? Like how many more billable hours do you need? Then we recorded that episode. I think the morning after the story first broke, uh, and uh, so maybe we'll get interviewed. How did you know that? Uh, but no, I am ready for that saga at end, by the way, NBA and Wattel. Um, no, I don't know where Jalen goes, but you said, and I think the most provocative thing you've said today is that you do not expect if you had to say that Jalen Brown will be on the team, uh, opening night. I think you left a lot of room for it to be there, but if you had to say he's got to go. And one thing we know, uh, real trades, travel and silence, shout out, Jay, Don De, it could be anybody. It could be Indiana. Who knows? It could be a number of teams, but you've made late. I think Portland is the team I've heard the most in this sort of week or two beyond Milwaukee. But it could be anybody. This is a great player. They don't grow on trees. Finals, MVPs don't grow on trees. He's just demonstrating. You can carry a pretty pretty sort of rag tag group to success. Um, and for the exact same reason, Miami just treated everything to get honest. You could see a team, hey, we could get, we could get Jalen for less than that. Let's go. This is our chance. I just don't know man. I'm trying to think like what is the asset that the Blazers have that really moves me if I'm the Celtics. And I'm like, all right, I can get you a holiday back for two years, the 34 and a half. I don't. Jeremy Grant. Like one of those guys has to be in the deal just financially clinging. Yeah. Like clinging. They're not going to do clinging. Um, Scoot Anderson. That's not an interesting, but like I still need like 40 million more dollars to make the map. Bill Simmons, I still think has his Scoot stock. So that could, that could be good for content. I just don't know sort of the mechanics of that one. I mentioned before, by the way, about Miami and optionality. It always, it always must be repeated that every time you say a team like, well, they've, they've sort of closed the door on some pathways by trading all this stuff for you honest. There is always the world in which you flip it somewhere else down the line and get stuff back. But that's, that's down the line. Yeah. I don't know, man. Boston is going to be interesting. I mean, I expect them to completely, not completely, but pretty significant changes in their front court going forward into next season. I think that was one of the appeals of Yannis. I would get slash educated guests that they had. If we do get Yannis, here are some stretch five type players that we could get. You know, Isaiah Stewart's jail and Smith from the Bulls, guys like that. Um, but obviously they didn't get Yannis. And now it's going to be sort of back to the drawing board in that, in that sense. And you know, it's, uh, it would be, it would be interesting to see where he would end up. And yeah, I even picked like the rockets. I remember thinking like, could they trick, would they do a Durant for Jalen Brown deal? And, and how, how much of a fun reversal would be from four years ago when it was like Jalen Brown plus assets for Durant would now be Durant plus assets for Jalen Brown, given how the age and developmental curves have changed. But who the hell knows, man, I don't, I don't know. Like wild, wild week in the NBA, you want to take a break and then talk about some of the other wild stuff that happened in the NBA? Sure. Okay, other NBA business curve goals. Very CJ McCallum, one year, $21 million. No notes, love the deal for the Hawks. They became super hard to guard once they got another ball handler in the door. Cause if you're going to hide your week defenders on Dyson Daniels, you can't hide them anywhere else because now there's no other safe place with a ball handler like CJ W. So now with Kingston Flummings in the door. He's interesting. Phoenix, Colin Gillespie four years, 48. Jordan Goodwin three for 19. No notes, good signings. Phoenix has some interesting starting lineup. Decisions to make in their long term futures, little murky with their lack of draft assets. But let's see more Flumming, more Mala watch and both those guys, Gillespie and Goodwin are good players on good deals. Tray young four years, 200 something million dollars. The fourth year is a player option. I got to say Kirk didn't expect this big of a number for Tray young. Not really sure even what to make of it. They just drafted AJ DeBanza not a guard. They have a lot of wings and bigs on the team of many of whom are young. And now they have Tray young is their is their point guard. I have I have I got a lot of I don't even know. I'm like baffle. This is so much money and so many years for Tray young. And I would put it to you like this. This is the kind of deal. There's one of two things must have happened here. Number one, number one, this was all three ordained upon the trade. This is what's going to happen. This is the deal. Number two, or some combination of these two. Number two, we actually feared that he had a max deal out there somewhere. I have no earthly idea where it was. It doesn't it from what I know it was not Brooklyn. They have a lot of they have a lot of guards already. Chicago has has point giddy. The Lakers have guards galore and we're the pistons advocate cunning him and we're now out of cap space teams already. I've heard rumblings that there was maybe a little truth to the Miami. Can we put use Tray young as like a desperation backup plan if all other plans for Yannis and Kauai and whatever fall through. That would have been a sign and trade that you cooperate with. So I'm not sure about that. I don't know what they were afraid of. I don't know who they were bidding against. They must have been bidding against either themselves or someone because this is the most money they could have given Tray young. Um, other than the fifth year, it's, it's as much money as any other team could have given Treyon, which suggests that they feared that he had a max. And let's just pause it that they actually thought that, right, that they believe that there was a max out there for him. Then you just face a very simple question, Kurt. We either max him out to, we either pay him this, the equivalent of another team's max, or we don't have Treyon on our team like it's a pretty, it's a pretty black and white choice. Like we can low ball him and try and get cute and he's walking. There's no magical in this scenario where they think that there's a max or they know there's a max out there for him. There's no magical. What if we can get him back for three years, 120, like he's just gone. And so then I just ask you, Baldi, would you rather not have Treyon at all or have him on this deal? I'd rather not have Treyon on my basketball team. And I think a lot of people around the league, not your basketball team, not your basketball team. I'd rather not have him. I'd rather take my chances with my young players and my guards. I can't believe the numbers. They have to pay Treyon going forward, given what we've seen from Treyon over the last few years. I mean, the team that had him and had his rights gave him away. And now you're watching. And if you want to look at the data, you look at on off numbers from the last few years, they're not exactly nuanced. He hadn't made the hawks a better basketball team when he was on the floor, particularly on one end of the floor that we call the defensive end of the court. And now the teams are smarter and smarter and smarter about exposing weak links on that end of the court. Guards like Trey Young have lower value around the league than they did previously. I am shocked by this contract. I know the bill and woes and hows are going to be joking about it in March when they do their worst contracts podcast. I just can't believe it. And in a week where they also get the potentially franchise player, AJ DeBonza, into their system, this is the story that you and I are talking about more. That's just really, really weird. And to your first point, people around the league, I talked to who said it was pre-ordained. And I'm not reporting that. And I don't know, but that's when you ask people around the league, why this happened? Who are they bidding against nobody? This must have happened. I can't find the pre-ordained. I can't find the team they are bidding against. I like that framing of either this deal or no deal, because that makes it, that makes you think hard about it because if I were to defend this deal, here's how it defended. Number one, I've got to hit the salary floor in two years and I have like no veteran contracts at all on my books for 20, 20, 20, 20, and even Anthony Davis is gone. By the way, this price point for Tray Young very much indicates to me just putting two and two together that Anthony Davis is a short-term rental for the Wizards. Like, I just don't see any world in which in three seasons they're paying those guys $129 million combined. It just makes no sense at all. And so in 20, 20, 29, I mean, SARS New Deal will kick in George's New Deal will kick in Bob Carrington is the game out on the team, I don't know, and then they have the rookie deals. So they need money on their books, right? That's number one. Number two, the opportunity cost is I could have so much cap room to throw at every young free agent in the league. Jail and Dern, if I love him, max offer sheet, Austin Reeves, here's a max. Now you just got max for the Lakers, we'll talk about that in a second. Peyton Watson, whatever, what are your hopes and dreams? We'll fulfill them for you. And if we don't get those guys, at least we've inflicted pain on their teams who have to match those offer sheets or, you know, match our offer, and then we can take on dead money and get draft picks like we just saw the nets do with Julia's Randall. That's the opportunity cost that you're missing. In their defense, I saw someone so I think he could go get a young player like Austin Reeves. Austin Reeves is older than Trey Young. Trey Young is still only 27 years old. I think he has become someone somewhat underrated as a legit offensive engine who's going to be motivated and will make life easier for all of these wings and bakes who need someone to swing feeding up points and organize the offense. Other defense would be the lottery rules and the relegation zone, both the wizards avoiding the relegation zone. And players like Trey Young who are floor razors, but perhaps not ceiling razors, having value on the market to other teams for that reason so that we could flip him and all that. All of that said, I would rather not have him on, I would rather not have him than have him on this deal. I would rather do all those other things that I talked about with my cap flexibility. If only for this reason. I just don't have a lot of faith based on what I've seen that he's going to be amenable to playing any other style on offense. Forget the defense. Defense is a sunk cost, right? We're all going to have to play hard and make up for his defensive limitations. I have not seen any evidence that he's going to be amenable to playing any style other than Trey Ball, tons of pick and rolls, stationary off the ball, occasionally flirting with the idea of setting some off ball screens and moving. Now he does run and push the pace and throw a hit ahead. He's gotten more committed to that, which I like. But I'm just like, I understand all these young guys like Trey Johnson need some spoon feeding. Saur needs some food. I understand all that. I just kind of want him to do more than what they're going to be able to do if Trey Young plays like he's always played. And I'd rather just explore other opportunities than this. I couldn't believe the number. I thought for sure if there were something preordained and I'm not saying there was, I have no proof that there was. I don't know that there was that it was not going to just be like, Oh, just the max, just the max. Another team could give me that's what we're for like four years with a player option. If that, like, I just don't see what the upside really of that is for Washington and maybe they'll be frisky early and we expect it all that, but just strange all around. They have so many decent players on cost control. I think the one case for Zach Lowe is we can overpay this guy because all of our other guys are young and on cost control, except for Anthony Davis who you talked about. But you mentioned the word pain in there somewhere. And I think that's sort of a concept with some of these four year deals we're starting to see at these massive numbers. And again, I've been harping on it, but like, it feels like the fatal flaw on today's MBA is not the mid range jumper. It is overpaying an older player who is not a great player. It feels like if you have one of these giant numbers on your cap sheet, pack it in. You're not going, you're not competing with a team like the Knicks or the Spurs or the Thunder that are just so deep and so wide that they can just punish you. And signing up for Trayon, it just, it feels honestly, it feels so wizard, dude. But I will, again, like I think he's become underrated. I think it, like I disagree with you, dude, I'll disagree with you on that. That's fine. I don't, I would not have done this to be clear. But I also don't think that doing it is some like fatally horrible mistake. I think there will be moments in next season even months where it's like, we're going to see the stories like, oh, did the Wizards actually hit a home run here with Trayon because he's helping in this way and that way, I still wouldn't have done it. I don't think it's like a disaster, but I'm glad, and again, he's only 27, but I'm glad you mentioned the tons of money to players who are somewhere between say the 25th and 45th best player in the NBA. And that's relevant for a couple reasons. Number one, the Julius Randall Salary dump should alarm everybody who has one of those players and he makes less than Trayon's going to make that they don't have value on the trade market. It's like, I should have mentioned for Jalen Brown, could the Raptors do something like Brandon Ingram for Jalen Brown? Well, like Brandon Ingram, you're going to have to attach like a lot of stuff to get the Celtics to be enticed by that contract, even though it's not very long. Forget to quickly and pertle disaster contracts. I do think that makes some sense for the Raptors to pursue by the way. I would sniff around Jalen Brown, if I were them, I'm not them. Julius Randall to the nets, along with, and the wolves then move five spots down in this draft. They trade numbers 28 and Julius Randall and they get number 33 and the bulls get in there and get claxon, which is fine. I was even knowing that the wolves faced an apron crunch, resigning IO, which they then did to $512 million. Good deal. It was a good player. That's fair money for a good starting guard, even like a starter six man kind of guard. Even knowing that, I was stunned that they were just like, yeah, we can't pay. We can't pay. Sorry, Anne. Sorry, team that's made conference finals, conference finals, second round in the last three years. Sorry, Rudy. Go bear. I understand this is a huge vote of faith in Nas Reed stepping into the starter. That's going to work fine in a bear and Jay playing more. They're super high on bear and Jay in Taren Shan and junior playing more as a small ball four. They had like, I think, to me, the wolves are unquestionably like going to be a little bit worse and certainly a little less diverse without Julius Randall. I don't know if they're going to be like that much worse, given all those backup plans. But if I'm Andy Edwards or Rudy Goberan, Chris Finch, I'm like, why do we have to be worse at all? Why can't we just pay all of these people to make a run at it? And I'd be depressed by that trade even though they get some flexibility and all those guys are ready. I was shocked that they just completely dumped Julius Randall and at how little value that they dumped him for. Obviously this speaks very highly of the Nick's end of the cat trade. And that is so over, is to be over, over. And I have all my face on that. That's fine. I was, like, I was like, whoa, that's, and if the vultures are circling at the Edwards and they are, I don't think there's anything from the pet cat quite yet. If I were at the Edwards, unless I just fucking hated playing with Julius Randall, I would be going to Mark Lorraine A. Rodden being like, what did we just do? We can't pay. We can't pay any, all these guys together. What are we trying to do? Yeah, I was looking at his playoff game logs. Oh, it's ugly, it's ugly, it's ugly. So maybe something there, does this relate back to your point about the purse rings in the new ownership where you're going to connect those dots with connect the dots A. Yeah, what dots? There's just a line, man. Like there's no dots. Yeah, so I think as somebody who watched the NBA playoffs very closely, particularly that Spurs Timberwell series, there's a lot of those games. Julius Randall, one of eight, six of 17, five of 12, three of 12, four of 10, six turnovers, one game, five, another game, the assists not there. It was painful to watch in a series where Anthony Edwards was limited. Julius Randall was not the answer. And I think they just had, they probably, I don't know whose voices were in the room, but clearly, somebody's like, we can't have this guy on our team at these numbers. And then they did do the DeSoumo deal, which I think is, it's telling. I think they like playing with him. I thought that was a great deadline trade. By the way, I think a lot of people forgot about that. That was a great deal. But yeah, now what? And so I think I heard Bill saying earlier this week, are we starting to see a new kind of trade or new kind of machination with, you mentioned the relegation zone. And I really think Julius Randall is the first mascot of some kind. You can help me frame this up. But just like, we're gonna be bad next year, but we don't want to be that bad. We don't want to be, we don't want to be very bad. Except the next don't control their own pick. The rockets have the right to swap picks with them next year. Well, maybe this is two years away. That's exactly, that's where you're the best. Yeah. But yeah, like, are we starting to see sort of bad teams? Like, we want to not not be bad, but I don't know. Like, what is the point of this from a net's perspective? I think what did you just see from Julius Randall that when you get into the Julius Randall business? Now, I will say the second conference finals run, he was outstanding and played the best glass while his career. And he should at least get credit for that. And when I say the goals will be less diverse and maybe a little bit worse without Julius Randall, I think his regular season stuff matters. You have to play the 82 games and if not as Reed gets hurt, if Berenje doesn't develop as fast enough, if Terence Shannon Jr. is yanked in an other rotation again, you're going to feel the lack of like, hey, at least we can throw this out there. And it's like 21 and 5 every night despite the warts and the playoffs, the playoff warts in particular. Trey Young, I think, is a relegation zone guy before. Like I said, although I forgot even like the Wizards, Wizards can't pick number one next year. That's all at least the best they can do is two because of this new system. Austin Reeves, to me, is a different, but maybe he's not. I mean, Austin Reeves just got signed according to Sean's four year max deal with the Lakers. What is it, like 40 and a half a year or something like that? And they still have cap space to work with as much as $40 something million, assuming eight in the opposite. And if eight doesn't opt in, someone should be giving a better advice. And obviously LeBron, they'd have to renounce LeBron to get to that number and there are things they could do with that number that are interesting. But I think it's less than 48 a year. It's like 46 a year if I'm looking at split track, right? But anyway, if we're going to talk about these players who are somewhere between the 20th and 40th best players in the NBA making 30% of the cap or whatever it ends up being, I think we have to talk about Austin Reeves too. I think Austin Reeves is really good. Again, he's not as young and rising as people think he is. He's 28 years old, so this pays him through his prime. It pairs him with Luca, which I think offensively is a proven powerhouse pairing. And it also is going to make it a high wire act for the Lakers to surround those two guys, whether LeBron comes back or not, with the kind of personnel that's going to be able to compete with San Antonio and Oklahoma City and on and on in the Western Conference as Luca approaches his apex prime as well. But I mean, Austin Reeves in a vacuum, this is what he's worth. This is what the marketplace was going to say he was worth. He was going to get a match from someone. He's a wildly productive offensive player. Would it made the all-star team less sure he had been healthy? And like Luca has already shown secondary ball handler next to him is a very powerful formula, particularly when they can run, pick and roll with each other a little bit because of the size, discrepancy in the defenders. It's like, and again, if you're the Lakers, their whole dilemma this off season was use it or lose it. Like if we don't bring back Austin Reeves, we have to replace Austin Reeves. And I don't know how we do that. And he's a really good player. So you're kind of just doing it because you have to and you like the player. But I don't know what do you think of this deal. It's in a lot of ways it's a no-brainer you knew was coming. But I think the construction of the team around them is going to be quite interesting. It reminds me of the old Dame C.J. Blazer's now. I don't think I had a better idea. I think like you said, it's a no-brainer. They had to do this. What are they going to do? Let them go. That's a terrible move. You have to do it. You have the asset under control now. Maybe you do something different and drastic in a year or two. I think when people like you and me look at the Lakers of the next few years, I'm not sold at a back court of Austin Reeves and Luca Doncic is getting you just like with that C.J. Dame team over the top in the Western Conference. So from a cap-room perspective, I think he's getting from the strategy perspective, getting the asset under control was the right move. Do they commit to the full four years or do they try to get creative and move him down the road? I think that's a possibility. But again, what did we just see about the now? He's a little bit more malleable than Julius Randall is because of his playmaking guard who can shoot threes and you could fit that anywhere. But these deals are just like, once you get into this salary range, it's like, oh, yeah, I was looking for a player in three first. It's not that easy. I agree. I don't have any better ideas. I don't think they could have let him go because of the way the cap rules work. But now that you have the worst point of attack defense, maybe in the Western Conference with Luca and Austin Reeves, in a world where there's a Dylan Harpers, the font castles, Shae Gilders, Alexander, Anthony Edwards, Jamal Murray, the list goes on. Darius Garland, Stefan Curry, like, you have to defend guards in the Western Conference. And this team is not equipped to do it. They're not equipped to do it. So I think it's fair to question the long-term architecture of the most proud franchise in the association, putting all of this money in a defensive back court that is clearly not up to the task of stopping their contemporaries around the league. So I applaud the transaction here in June, 2026. I do. I don't think they had a choice. I think the more interesting question, Zach Lois, is it the right thing for them in '27 and '28? I don't know. I mean, again, I think it's the right thing for them now. I don't know sort of how they build the team to a point where they could compete with those two teams. So I will say, like, I think the Dame CJ comp is a little disrespectful to Luca. I just think that's fair. Luca is a different guy, an MVP level player, though he's never won it. A predatory genius, offensive force with size, that those guys even daemons have. They get rebounds. All shit on my own take a little bit. I do think that's fair. The larger defensive concern is legitimate. That's what it is. I just think Luca is a different sort of offensive wizard and an offensive machine's fair. Because of his size and his physicality, combined with his just insane passing ability from in the paint. And if he's healthy-- and again, his health is an endless sort of, like, kind of like Yanis. Like, it's just he's got to be healthy at the right time. They're going to be able to score on anybody pretty much. It's just the other end of the floor that they're in the wrong conference. But I don't know what else they were supposed to do here, other than maybe investigate sign-and-trade possibilities. That was another one for Jalen Brown, where I had thought, you know, two weeks ago, and I was mapping up fake Jalen Brown trades. I thought a sign-and-trade with Austin Reeves and some stuff for Jalen Brown is kind of like that's-- that makes a lot of sense as a Luca sidekick. Like, better defender can shoot. But that appears to be-- Well, here it is. Here's the thing before we move off because I know you're ready to move off. You've talked enough Lakers. Let's give some love back to Jared Dubin. What did he say? The path to contention top 10 offense, top 10 defense. The Lakers were the number 10 offense in the league last year. They're number 20 defense. Like they need to get better on defense. And I guess the skeptical take on the Austin Reeves commitment here is like that's not helping them get better on defense anytime soon. I mean, there's other thing they need to address. But if the Lakers are going to be a top 10 defense, like the Dallas Maverick achieved with Luca and a secondary ball handler to great effect, they need to really get better on the defensive end of the court with the front court players. And I really like Austin Reeves as a player. I think it's worth this contract. It's just it'll be interesting to see where it goes from here. The last thing I want to say with you, I've forgotten this. The other the other big news is Mike anori hired as the Portland head coach on a one year deal with team options in the two years after that. I feel bad for Mike anori. And I feel like everybody around him from his agents to the blazers should be fucking embarrassed that they just signed a proven NBA assisted coach. He's been ready for this job for a long time to a one year prove it deal. I think all the coaches should be furious on his behalf. I just find that whole that's like a rinky dink BS. And I hope my good or my anori does really well. And they tear up those team options and give him a gigantic raise because that's who he would deserve. But I thought that was like he's ready. He's paid his dues. He's been in high leverage playoff games. He's been the acting head coach when Chris Finch was injured. Like he's paid all the dues. He's been in all different kinds of situations. I just, I just, I mean, look, it's easy for me to say I, I can't believe that contract. I can't even believe that the blazers offered it with, with like actual clear eyes and thinking. I have not heard much like that for like a new hire. But maybe I shouldn't have been surprised when they showed no interest in the guy helped save their season last year in Tiago splitter, who's now the coach of the bulls. And Tiago want to play off game. And, you know, I think what that we saw him leave that was pretty stunning. And if you talk to people around Tiago, it was like he wasn't going to take that kind of nonsense from from that. Mike and Nori is ready to be a coach in this league. Everybody loves Mike and Nori thought very highly of. This is a good hire from a blazer's perspective. But you're right to zero in on that contract. That's bizarre as unprecedented. I'm not going to say it's disrespectful, but you know, you get paid millions of dollars. The coach basketball, but it is, it's unprecedented, wonderfully used to use the plural right there. I hope it's the plural for on behalf of Mike and Nori. But oh my gosh, but let's hope, let's hope he thrives. And this is, this is all good because yeah, people love him. And he's a huge part of that that ascendant wolf theme over the last few years. You mentioned conference, finals, conference, final second round, ran into the, to the spurs this year with a banged up ant man. You know, I think he's a good assistant coach. But I hope that's not the last thing you wanted to talk to me about. What's that shirt you're wearing and what are you doing man back to LaGuardia? Yeah, before we bring on Gavondi to talk draft, I, I just, I was so appreciative that when the NBA moved the draft up by a couple of days that, so that it fell on the day of the Croatia game that we brought, bought tickets to Bill was like, just go, we'll figure it out. Just do a podcast two days later or day later, it's going to be fine. It was so even beyond my expectations in terms of the intensity and the excitement. It was absolutely amazing. Croatia 1-1-0. I don't want to get in put my soccer analyst hat on because it's on wall five. I think my, my wife was, was a little upset at the Croatia fans. So I, we sat my wife and my daughter and I sat together, her sister and her daughter sat elsewhere. So there are five of us at the game, my, I would say Croatia fans outnumbered Panama fans like 10-1, probably a huge Croatian diaspora in Toronto and it was super fun in that regard. But she was like, the Panama fans are louder than us. That's not okay. And she was most like, I've never seen her like this. She was like, come on, like we can't just cheer when the teams playing well. Like they were really struggling in the first half. It was not a great first half for Croatia. And she was like, come on. We got to lift them up. I was like, oh my god. This is an intense side of you that I've not, I've not seen. Look, Croatia came second in 2018 and third in 2022. So this is a country of 3.8 million people with 3.9 million people. It's like, it's crazy. This team doesn't have it. I love, I love it. They just like the old guys are too old. And we did, we didn't really realize it. But we saw Luca, Luca Motro, which is 200th international appearance. Yeah, only four, three other players have done that. And they tossed them up in the air afterwards. And one of the coolest things was when they took him out of the game and like the 80th minute. And this is something they do know is they take Luca Motro, out of games because he's 40. The whole crowd, including the pan, the Panamanian guys next to me who were delightful. I made friends with all of them. We're chanting Luca Motro. Oh, that's cool. Even they joined in. So we saw that. And then you look, the old guys are old. The young guys are unproven and our best player, a guardial defensive player broke his leg. Like six months ago and it's just returning to fitness and was actually benched him in the second half because the defense was bad. But we found out and I was thinking just at halftime, I sound like we traveled far. It's a privilege to be able to go at any of these games. I get it. That was like, I've just really, I mean, my wife is Croatian through and through. They moved because of the war. They relocated because of the war. She still considers it her home. She's happiest when she's around her people. Our trips there every summer are not like optional vacations. They're returned to her homeland. It's extremely important for her that our daughter has Croatian stuff in her blood and her roots. And I was like, I just, I just want her to see them win so badly. And then they go up, they go up one zero and they end up winning the game. Unbeknownst to me, the entire area around the BMO stadium, then becomes a Croatian party where all the fans stay. There's like a DJ playing Croatian music. Everyone is singing and dancing. I went to order drinks for my wife and her sister. I was trying to stay sober because the NBA draft was going on. I was following and sending texts at the same time. And sure enough, the guy gets out. The one of the bartenders gets out of the line comes up to us and it's like, Hey, I just want you to know like this hasn't happened yet. But we're running out of all alcohol. And I was like, yeah, man, the Croatians are here. It's like that's what's going to happen. Like I know the Scottish people got a lot of press for that in Boston. And he was like, oh, the Croatians, the Croatians are glad it like that. And the guy behind me was the Croatians like, Oh, yeah, you're not going to have any alcohol by the end of the night. And just my wife has tons of videos on Instagram of her singing and dancing. It's like one of the happiest moments I've ever seen her. And like my daughter was there singing and dancing. I'm just so glad that they won was not a convincing win. It was one zero. They have a game left against Ghana that might be. Yeah, like tired around wind wind this. But if the atmosphere was super intense, I got to tell you, Kirk, I'm not a big soccer guy until the world cup comes around. And maybe it would be different if I followed like a like a like a club team where you have a regular season with lots of games. And like, there's chances to make up for bad losses or whatever. These games are fucking agony. It's just agony. Like it's not even fun every every time Panama gets the ball. I'm just like, I can't even watch. I can't watch. It's, it's just agony, but it was super fun and I was glad to be able to go. Yeah, it sounds magical, dude. I love the world cup. I'm glad you got that. I'm trying to go for anybody has tickets. Just let me know. But no, I think you didn't see Croatia with your wife and your kid. That's a real special moment and proud of you as your friend for doing it. I'm also jealous. I want to go. I want to see it. I'm team USA. It looks great. Croatia. I mean, that one, no, that's, that's a tough group. You guys have. Oh, that's a very tough group. Oh, winds of wind. And I was sitting there at half time. I was like, they're not playing balls. They, they cleaned up. They cleaned up a lot of them. They played well in the second half. But I was half time. I was like, I just, just give me one bit of magic. Just like there's one basketball equivalent to that though, dude. Just just one moment of magic could swing the whole game and we got it. And it was awesome. And yeah, it was like, it was a, it was a lot of fun. What can I tell you? I feel there's no, there's no basketball equivalent to holding on to a one goal lead for like the last 20 minutes when the tactics change. And it feels like the, the team behind just has the ball threatening over. And it feels like time stands still, man. So, but congrats to you and your family and all the Croatian fans. It sounds like an awesome time up in Toronto. It was a lot of fun. All right, Kurt Goldberg, thanks for your time, bud. Thanks for going over all the stuff with me. And now it's time to bring in Jonathan Gavoni because the draft was last night. It was all chalk, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to talk about. Gavoni's here. That's coming up. All right, Jonathan Gavoni is here. The NBA draft, the first round at least was last night. The second round is today was a lot of chalk, but still lots of interesting things starting at the top. The Wizards take AJ to Bansa and Utah, despite, you know, some people thinking that they might take Cam Booser that maybe they secretly wanted to trade up to take the Bansa. I was saying all along, and I don't think they're trading up. And I, and my gut was they're going to take Peterson. If he's there, I never really got the concerns to the degree there were any that Darren Peterson and Kianta George is an awkward fit on offense defensively. There might be some growing pains, but they're going to be surrounded by size. I love love that Utah was just like, yeah, cool. Like we could get Campbell's there. He might end up being the most productive player from the straps, certainly had a case for the number one pick. We're going to take an upside shot on a guy who fits exactly what we need positionally. And I think this team's going to be super exciting next year. What have you heard from the fallout of that pick is Peterson and his camp? Are they, have they come to grips with this? Are they worried about the camp that George fit? Is this going to be a home run? What's start there? I think Peterson, he always wanted to go one. And so once it became obvious that he wasn't going to be the number one pick, the Wizards actually told him this several days ago that he is not going to be the number one pick. That is what started this whole chain of events with the Utah Jazz front office traveling to Canton, Ohio to meet with Darren Peterson to watch him work out, to really start this process of making and comfortable with the idea of playing for the Utah Jazz. And he's saying all the right things. He looks genuinely happy to be with the Jazz. I mean, it's a great spot for him. They have a wide open spot there at that two guard spot with Keyonte, George. Who can also play off the ball? And so, you know, there's a lot of room there to grow for Darren Peterson. They have a pretty interesting roster here now with Larry Markin and with Jaron Jackson Jr., you know, and so, I think there's a lot of interesting pieces here. And so, I mean, I can't, I mean, Darren Peterson looks happy and there's no reason for him not to be happy. I mean, he's in a great spot with a great coaching staff in a wonderful city. And so, I think it's really a home run for him. And this is going to be a great opportunity for him to show that he should have been the number one pick. You know, this is going to be at the bait that it's going to be going on for years and years. And so, it's going to be really interesting to see how, how does it pan out, you know, also with, with Cam Booser as well, you know, like these are three guys who all had a really legitimate claim to be number one picks. And it's an awesome draft crop at the, at the top. And so, I can't wait to see how it plays out, especially in Washington, you know, with, with Aja de Bonza and Trey Young, you know, like we haven't, has Trey Young ever really had like a mid post ISO guy like Aja de Bonza who's at the best with the ball in his hands, you know, playing in the mid range, playing out of the post, out of the mid post, creating his own shot. You know, Washington just handed Trey Young an incredible contract. And essentially a max deal, you know, which, you know, really surprised a lot of people around the NBA. I mean, there was some thought that, yeah, you know, the Wizards, you know, they, they traded for Trey Young when his value was at the absolute lowest. Basically, at the Hawks essentially gave Trey Young away, which, you know, really kind of, we thought open the pathway for the Wizards to, to go and get him on a value contract. That's not what happened here. And so, you know, if you're the Wizards now, you really need to make progress now. I mean, now is the time to take all these pieces that you have, all these young guys, which Trey Young, you know, as your veteran guy, the leader of your team, and we want to see Trey Young now, you know, like, can you be a guy that can drive winning? This has been the question about Trey Young since he was in high school. Is he a guy that you can win with? Is he someone that teammates enjoy playing with? Is he a guy that, you know, that can be the face of your franchise and at, and win at the high school? There were glimpses of that in Atlanta. There were, you know, fleeting moments. Ultimately, you know, things went south there and they, and they basically, they gave him away to the Wizards. So it's a great opportunity now for Trey Young to take age of the bonds that under his wing. We've heard that Trey Young and Anthony Davis haven't been around Washington a whole lot yet. You know, the young players that are kind of looking around and saying, hey, are these guys going to make an appearance at some point, you know, like, are they going to show up and show some leadership skills and guide these guys? Now's the moment for, you know, for Anthony Davis, and Trey Young to come in and, and take these guys and, and, and lead them to the playoffs. And maybe, you know, try and make some noise in the playoffs because the East, there is an opportunity here, Zach, for a team like Washington to do something in the East. I wonder how many times a day Anthony Davis has the realization that he's on the Washington Wizards. If he's just like going about his day, ordering Chipotle or something and he looks, I'm wearing a wizard's dress, right? I'm on the Wizards. Oh my God. What did that happen? Okay, can Boozard know notes, Caleb Wilson know notes, both those teams are thrilled. They should be thrilled. The home run picks for both. The next, I'm going to say like eight picks, nine picks, 10 picks are super interesting. Wagler to the Clippers or Wagler, I always forget. Which is it again? Wagler. Wagler, that's what I thought. I said at the draft combine that all the buzz was that the Clippers were going to take Wagler and they did, and I think that's a good, a good pick on them. The next pick, you're going to have to sell me on McKeill Brown a little bit. I watched two games. That's all I watched. I'm not a draft guy. I was not terribly impressed. The nets take him over a cuff, Fleming's buries, who I really like, and I like the Bucks. I like the Bucks, Buries, A-Ment combo. A-Ment's polarizing, we can talk about him later. Kingston Fleming's is clever, and I like him too. What did the nets see in terms of how McKeill Brown Jr. fits within? You know, I, Jaguar, Jolman, and Treyori, and Seraph, and all the point cards they have. Maybe they've already sort of decided we can't make decisions based on who we have, but sell me on that fit. I mean, it was really a question of McKeill Brown versus Darius A-Cuff there, and it comes down to. And there's some, you know, it's a very interesting comparison. They're, you know, they're the same position, essentially. And I mean, Darius A-Cuff had a much better season than McKeill Brown. McKeill Brown, you know, up until, let's say January of 2026, he was widely considered the better prospect of the two. We saw what he did at the under-19 World Cup. He was like, he was the number one high school guy, right? Among these guys, was he the highest rated at high school? He was. He was. I mean, I, it depends who you ask, they were. I mean, Darius A-Cuff was very highly regarded too. But, you know, you saw what, what McKeill Brown did in the month of November, for example. That game against Kentucky, you know, biggest rivalry on Louisville's schedule, 29 points, five assists. You know, it was an incredible performance, you know, for the first part of the under-19 World Cup, he was the best guy on that U.S.A. team, which also featured Adrian de Bonza. It featured Co-IP, you know, Tyron Stokes, Morez, Johnson, Jordan Smith. This was a loaded group of players that the U.S. brought. And, you know, at six foot five in shoes, six, seven and a half wingspan, you know, the ability to get anywhere he wants on the floor, changing speeds, playing off prox over his hesitation moves, getting into his spots, you know, the ability to pass at a very high level with both hands finishing the lane, makes shots off the bounce, you know, all very, very high level of the talent is off the charts. You know, if I'm the Brooklyn Nets, I see, you know, like 30 seconds after the pick, this guy, you know, sits down and, and, you know, they're asking him, hey, you know, two months ago, you could barely get out of bed. Your, your back was so messed up. It's not that the introduction that I want, you know, as a Brooklyn Nets fan. And that was one of the questions about Mikkel Brown, you know, like he had this injury riddled season. He, you know, they're, you know, could he play, could he not? Was he, did he shut it down to early? He came back, he, you know, he had a, you know, dropped like 49 in the game and then shut it down after that. So he was legitimately hurt. That's going to be something, but the physical is, it checked out. So it's going to be an interesting comparison. You see how, how this plays out, you know, for Brooklyn, after drafting all those point guards last year. You know, I think him and Yagor Demen is, is, is a, is a good fit. I don't think that Yagor Demen is six nine. He's a, you know, big time shooter. He can shot it very well. Yeah, so I mean, really, who just hurts is no one's roar and Ben Seroff. And you're not making, you know, decision based off that. So, you know, I think, you know, if you're the Brooklyn Nets, they always talk about character and intel and background and how heavy they dig into that. And clearly, they liked something more about Mikkel Brown's profile than about Darius Acuff, you know? I mean, Darius Acuff, I mean, there were a lot of questions that, you know, about, you know, how much of a winning player is he the defensive intensity, the body language, the leadership, he's a very quiet guy on the court. You know, there's not a whole lot of leadership there. You know, not that Mikkel Brown is renowned for that, but that was probably a big factor in why, why Brown ended up being the pick there over Acuff. Yeah, and look, the Kings end up getting Acuff at seven. I had said last week when I think we were on that I didn't get the sense that the Kings were desperate to trade up to get Acuff that they were going to sit at seven and take who they take. I checked with the teams above them in the draft. And they're like, yeah, we didn't hear from them. And so I think they sat there and yeah, Acuff fell to them. I think that's super exciting for Kings fans. I don't know how he's going to be in the NBA, but it's clearly electric and super smooth and super skilled and it plays a lot of points. I mean, he's going to make a really strong push for rookie of the year. And plays a position update that it had a massive need for. I think it's a really fun outcome for them. And then, so I mean, again, and Kingston, Kingston Fleming's to the Hawks. People thought that number eight pick might be in play. I mentioned that it could be an interesting starting point to a Trey Murphy III offer. I think a lot of teams hit the Pelicans yesterday about Trey Murphy III and could they make swings for him [BLANK_AUDIO] And they were I think a little surprise that Depelecans didn't, from what I heard didn't really engage too much on Trey Murphy, the third talks. And so the hawks end up taking Kingston Fleming's, I like getting another ball handler in the door for them, what is he has like a six three wing span. So I don't know how that's going to translate to the NBA. But this, you know, I do wonder if Brunson doing what he just did sort of made all these teams a little bit more emboldened about small guards. But you got to surround those small, you got A, the thing that Brunson did really well, other than the offensive brilliance, right, you have to be an A plus offensive player. Number two, you have to learn to hedge and recover and not get in bad switches. And the nicks were super good about that. And number three, you've got to surround that guy with size and defensive versatility all over the floor. And the nicks hit that out of the park. And I think the hawks have the kind of team that they might be able to do that too. I don't know how ready he's going to be to step in and like, you know, I don't see him starting next year or whatever, but who knows, but how do you see, how does his game using translate to the league into this roster specifically? I'm a fan of Kingston Fleming's. I like what the hawks did in general, both with him at eight and then drafting Zubie edge of four at 23. These are two guys that fit the way that they want to play and they fit there, you know, the DNA of their team and, you know, they both bring big time toughness, big time intangibles, really unselfish. And, you know, if you're not going to find a star at eight, you know, which in this draft was always going to be unlikely, then you, you know, you go for the double. And I think that Kingston Fleming is a solid double. He's, he's got great speed, you know, he can really handle the ball. He's very good in transition. You can get to his spots on the court. He can, you know, make midrange jumpers. He shot 39% for three on, on pretty low volume, but 85% from the free throw line. He's a tough minded guy. And so I think he's, I think he's going to really fit with the Atlanta hawks. So I like what they did here. The three. And again, I watch like two Kingston Fleming games. So I'm, I'm just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous and should not be allowed in any front office to make any drafting decisions. I do think, by the way, I had this idea, this would be, it would be fun. I got so into watching the college stuff and thinking more about it by my standards anyway, that I thought it would be fun to take like a year of my career and just become a college basketball NBA scout podcast and just sort of experiment with that. Just watch like 20 college games of like a day and go all in. But anyway, I like his, his toughness and swagger and his, he's such a clever player. I was very seduced by how clever and wiring he is as a ball handler and just the change of pace and all that stuff. How big a surprise for you was Marez Johnson Jr. all the way up at nine, even was it surprising even with the maps having shocked everybody by getting Dusty May as their head coach. It wasn't, it wasn't that big a surprise. I mean, we, you know, we, I came in the podcast a couple of days ago. We talked about risers, you know, and, and he was really the first name that, that I brought up because, you know, the NBA playoffs, I mean, really helped guys like Marez Johnson. And I mean, if you want to win at the highest level, you need size and length and physicality and toughness. And that's obviously what they want to do in Dallas now. It's what they want to surround Cooper flag with. And if you look at the way that Dusty May played and Michigan, he went with a really tall, small forward. That's Cooper flag. He had Marez Johnson at the fore. And then he had a rip protector at the five and a dimar. And that could be your, your Derek lively right there. And so they are already kind of putting together the outline of how Dusty May wants to play. Now, obviously, they, they, they, the Kyrie, I mean, that's, you know, Ellie Kado, they, they've got more, there's a lot more work there to go. But I'm sure that they spent a lot of time talking to Dusty May about not just Marez Johnson, but every player that he played against, prepared for, you know, usually you don't want to involve NBA head coach too much in your scouting decisions because these guys, they just don't have time to watch college basketball. They don't know anything about the college game. Dusty May just spent the entire season watching this entire crop. He recruited a lot of them. He knows him really well. If you ask anybody that knows Dusty May, one of the things that they say about him is his best trait is that he's in an elite talent evaluator going back to his time at Louisiana attack as an assistant at University of Florida. Anytime that Dusty May would offer somebody on the recruiting trail, any high school kid, that kid would automatically, the next day, get 10 offers because everybody around the industry knows that Dusty May is one of the best that there is at a value in a talent. So when you are Messiah, Jerry and Mike Schmitz and you hire Dusty May, obviously, you're getting an incredible X is a knows guy. You're getting an incredible human being. Everybody loves him as a person, but you're also getting a phenomenal talent evaluator. And if he believes that Morais Johnson, I'm going to buy that, you know, and I mean, talking to Mike and Masami, they liked Morais already before. So it was it was a good fit. You know, there was a lot of talk that, you know, this draft, I mean, we really kind of knew what the top eight was going to look like. And so once those eight guys went off the board, there's a kind of a wide range of players that you're choosing from. And to take Morais, you know, at the top of his range at nine when, you know, probably if he doesn't go nine, he goes 10, he goes 11, he goes 12. So I don't really see that as a reach. Yeah. I mean, I just Michigan must have just been a bear to play against Lesley. I mean, they won the national title, but just the physicality and size that they were throwing out there. And we're going to get to their other two. That's get picked right after this. Johnson's switchability jumped out of out of the tape. Now they're skeptics, he's pretty switchable, but not like elite, bam switchable, fine. I mean, there's gradations of it, obviously like a great rim runner rebounder, all that stuff on offense, dabbled in shooting threes, 12 of 35 in college. And that's the like, I'm just interested to see how flag plus Johnson plus lively looks. And maybe that's a premature conversation because they have a lot of veteran forwards on the team and a lot of guards, they have just a lot of guys they can play alongside flag in a rim running center, it doesn't have to be those three. But you know, I think like a flag Johnson two main game is going to get switched and then it's on flag to beat those kinds of switches, which he got better and better at both smaller guys and bigger guys beating them in different ways as a rookie. But I think that's interesting. But look, again, you just have to trust the coach you had him for all those all those all that time in Michigan. Three is at 10 and a man at 13. This is obviously the start of the bucks digging out of the post honest era. I heard they were maybe the most active team on draft night calling everyone with all just just fact finding like, like what they could get for some of the guys that they just picked up from Miami. If they could package their picks, if they could trade picks for this and that like I think they were all over the place. They ended up just keeping the picks and taking buries who I really liked on the film that I watched and a man who I didn't watch all that enough up to have an opinion. But it's obviously like super polarizing. Some people really didn't like them as a prospect empty calories all this. Some people are enticed by the sort of size, position, athletic profile. How do you think the bucks made out here? I like what they did. I think it, you know, to get Nate, I meant at 13, I mean, that's, that's a great swing. I mean, you take a, at that point in the draft, you take a swing on talent. He's 6-11. He can handle. He can pass. He can shoot. He can guard multiple positions. He's 19 years old. I mean, you know, he's the development curve that he's on is very, very different than, you know, almost anybody in this draft class. I mean, he was a guy that like wasn't even ranked in the top 100, you know, like two, two and a half years ago. And then he started his ascent. And I don't think that he's anywhere near what he's going to be in, you know, in three to five years from now. I mean, the body is, I mean, he's gained 25 pounds in the last year. He's probably going to gain another 10, 15, you know, like in the next 12, 18 months. And, you know, just the fact that he's, he's a big guard. He can, and they're going to give him a runway here to, to really run with that talent. And, you know, like, they're not, I mean, wins the losses. They're probably not going to matter as much anymore. I mean, so you're going to probably start him and buries. And you're going to give them, you know, the, the opportunity that they need to make mistakes and, and, and, and to experiment. And, I think that's going to be, that's going to really benefit Nate Emmant. And so I mean, I'm, I'm bullish on his town. I had him ranked fifth on, on my board, Percy. So for them to get him 13th, I think that's, that's a great swing. And so I'm, I think that him and buries, I, it's, it's interesting. We're going to see how that plays out. But it's a, it's a very good start. If you're the Milwaukee boxing, you need to hit on these two guys because, you know, you don't have a, I don't think they have a pick, and next year is draft. And I mean, we've got to, you know, some coming down the pipeline in 2031 or whatever, you know, and so that's, I mean, they, they need to show, you know, they, they, they, they need to make something of these two picks. And I think they did well with what they have. I like, I like buries. Amen. I don't know well enough. But, you know, if you get a second pick, you, you sometimes use it to take a, kind of a big swing and you're saying the potential is there for a big swing. Oklahoma City at 12 Snags, a day, Mara, a big center, obviously, between that and Sorber, they seem to be setting up some heart and sign insurance down the line. If this ends up being the last year, they, he's got the, they have the team option on him. Obviously, any team contending with one man, Yama, for the near to medium term. future is going to have all sorts of different size elements that it's going to need to have. And this is one. I had heard from teams just above the thunder in the draft that they were calling trying to move up. I don't know if you heard that or not, but I wonder if they were trying to move up for Mara and they got their guy anyway. Yeah, there was talk for the last few weeks that the teams, you know, that they were calling the teams above them, you know, even going from like five through 10 really and any continued to, according to people I taught you, like in during the draft. Yeah, exactly. I mean, people, some people keep asking like, who are they targeting? And you know, there was a sense out there that it might be a dimarrow. We don't know that for a fact, but it makes a ton of sense to draft a seven four guy with a nine, nine standing reach who, you know, can really protect the rim at a high level. And, you know, is you ready to play a big role in the NBA next year? Probably not, but he's a guy that you throw him out there and, you know, three, four minute spurts. I mean, how it impact the game, you know, like in his passing ability, I mean, that's going to be, could it be interesting? It's been a good wrinkle to give them. And they're, you know, maybe the best team in the NBA developing talent. And so a dimarrow is absolutely not short on talent. Yeah. And the biggest concern about him other than, you know, free throw shooting, he just sort of developing physically and developing as an NBA player in terms of skill and reading the game was just fundamentally like how many minutes can he play? And I think that's less of a concern for the thunder of thinking two, three years down the road. We're facing Wembee in a playoff series. We want to throw five different looks at him during the course of the game. We have Chet Hongren, who's a tent pole guy who I think is going to have to just play more five against the spurs than they dared play him in that series. Jalen Williams seems like a guy, big Jalen Williams, Arkansas Jalen Williams, who will stick around the thunder for quite some time on affordable contracts. He throw him in there. We'll see what happens with Sorber. You just, Mara at 12, you don't, you don't, you're not drafting to be your 35 minute of game starting center. It's such a thing barely exists anywhere in the league anyway. But can I throw him in three years? Can he play eight, two years? Can he play 18 minutes against one by the online playoff series? It's an interesting bet. Tell me about Bennett starts who the thunder took in the Grizzlies trade down marathon where they ended up picking up five second round picks to move down five spots or six by five spots to pick Karim Lopez. The thunder are going to have trouble rostering all these players even after trading Aaron Wiggins. By the way, I didn't mention that earlier with Kirk great pickup for the Hawks. I, I think you've got a little bit of okay. So he's shined to him and people are forgetting that he was even when they tried to play him against the spurs. He was played off the court. But I think he's a very good role player that the Hawks got for basically nothing great pick up by them. But the thunder still have to figure out cost cutting and roster cutting. But tell me about Sturts and what he brings to the table. Yeah. I like Sturts, you know, almost six four, you know, was one of the best players in college basketball this year, really dynamic shooter who can also, you know, played different speeds. He's got touch. He's got creativity. He's a very good pick and roll player is a very good decision maker. You know, not a great defender. It's probably the knock on him. He's only 186 pounds, but, you know, led Iowa on best season they've had in 40 years. I mean, they made a deep NCAA tournament run. I mean, it's an incredible story. He started at Northwest Missouri State. He was a division two player with zero division one offers. And then he transferred, you know, he went with Ben McCollum, his head coach to Drake. And then from there to Iowa. So, you know, what a rise for Bennett Sturts, you know, like three years ago, a division two player. And now he's, you know, playing for the Oklahoma City Thunder. How about that? Unbelievable. And we'll see how he fits and all they just have the luxury of just bring everyone along slowly. You know, Topic, it hopefully gets over all his health issues and is the part of their rotation next year. And they've just got a ton of guys. I am super intrigued again, based on my limited study, just enough to be dangerous. By Charlotte taking Hana Steinbach at 14 and Christian Anderson Junior, maybe the best shooter in the draft, but very undersized, not bear it, but for the NBA pretty undersized at 14 and 18. Steinbach in particular is interesting to me because what may, first of all, they have this sort of power forward question going forward once Miles Bridges deal expires, whether he's back or not. He can spot some minutes at center too, which is a weak position for them that I think they'll probably try to address in free agency too. But he is just their biggest strength on offense was just the sheer sort of unpredictability of where's the ball, who's moving, where screening, running, different screening combinations, off-ball screening, passing, just it was so fast and so unpredictable. And based on, again, the limited film I watched on Steinbach, he's just kind of all over the court and makes quick decisions and could play in the middle of the court, he could play in the corners. He's an incredible offensive rebounder. I feel like he fits there just like, not random basketball, but just interchangeability, unpredictability, quick strikeability, I like that, again, surface level analysis. I kind of like how he fits and Anderson just seems like shooting, shooting, shooting. But tell me about Steinbach and how he fits. Steinbach is a monster. I mean, 6/11 and a half in shoes, 250 pounds, gigantic hands, 72 wingspan, he was the best rebounder in college basketball. He's got phenomenal timing, he plays super hard, he's first off the ground to every loose ball. He's really really efficient, I mean, he draws fouls, he's tough, he's physical. He showed some ability to step outside and make threes this year. I mean, he made 18 threes, 35% for three, he's only, he's 20 years old. He's gotten better and better, like every single time I've seen him the past two or three years, he was considered like a mid major guy, like two years ago and then he broke out at the under 18 European championship and then he had a phenomenal showing at the under 19 World Cup and then he had a great freshman year at Washington and here he is now, he sees a lottery pick. So, I mean, you need guys like this to win and I think the best part about how to Steinbach is, he's not trying to be something that he's not, he knows that he's a role player, he knows that his job is to screen and roll, crash the glass, ducking, draw fouls, set hard screens and defend and he's happy to do that. And I think that's, that's really important to have, you need guys like that and Charlotte, obviously they had a really, really promising season last year and and adding him and Christian Anderson, you know, who he's going to be like a really good bench spark plug. I mean, you know, one of the best shooters in college basketball, you know, 42% for three, really good pick and role player too, I mean, can really pass, I mean, made big strides in that department on the smaller side, you know, only around six to 180 pounds, but, you know, had a great season and so, you know, these guys were teammates of the past few summers and they know each other really well. They both play for the German national team and so I mean, I like this draft for Charlotte and I love everything that that Jeff Peterson and his group have done, honestly, since they've come into, to Charlotte, I was going to say the next step is the hardest, right? The next step is just continuing to build up and to make sure this is like the development continues and it's not one of these, you know, it's not always linear. You don't always rise from like 40 wins to 45 to 50, but they're a good team and the steps from good to great. It's not a one year process, but it's, that's the hardest part. But I love everything, let's take a quick break and then we'll finish up with some draft stuff. All right, today's NBA draft reactions is presented by State Farm, whether it's heading into the draft ball or life, nothing beats a great game plan. So like a world class coach throwing up an inbound play, State Farm is there to drop the right plan for you and help you get the personalized coverage for whatever comes your way. But more on that later for now, I'm here to assist you with the NBA draft and John think of one is here to continue assisting me with the NBA draft at 11. The Warriors had no shortage of trade options from what I've heard. I'm not exactly sure obviously all of what they were, but they end up taking Yaxal Landibor who just as soon as that pick came across my phone, I was like, seems like a great warrior. Just a classic Steve Kerr warrior, cut off the ball, defense toughness, versatility. There were a lot of like, there were rumblings I heard during the day. I don't know if you heard this that other teams told me, Hey, we're hearing Landiborx falling a little bit. I don't know why if it's the maturity issues and all that he ends up not really falling at all in the Warriors, snap him up despite having some of what I heard interesting trade options. It seems like a good fit to me. He's a veteran. He's a veteran by draft standards, almost 24. The wing position with Kaminga gone and Moody injured and Butler injured is sort of sitting there for him to be a big bouncy wing for them. I think he's going to I liked what I saw of him on film for sure. Yeah, I like to stick for the Warriors. He's going to fit the way that they want to play. And he's obviously at, you know, turning 24, he's ready to play right away. I mean, he was a second best player in college basketball this year after Campbell's there. He's six foot 10, 240 pounds, seven, three wingspan. He's a grown man. And he's a, the versatility is really what stands out. He can handle. He can pass. He can shoot. He was Michigan starting small forward this year. But at UAB, he really played center. And so he can play. You can play him all over the floor, you know, the shooting really improved this year quite a bit. You know, 37% for three on high volume 82% from the line. So yeah, I mean, I mean, I. I heard some of the same things as you. There's some concerns a little bit about his maturity and the interviews weren't great. I mean, he's a little bit of a silly guy, I would say. You know, like I've been spent, you know, talk to him on the phone a little bit. And I mean, I think he's a great guy. He makes love on, they all vouch for him. They say he's, you know, they would go to war with him. And so I think that the warriors, I mean, are gonna like this pick. What did you think about the whole, you know, Lake of Dunley, these stuff, you know, the hot camera? I saw, I saw that just before we sat down, I was like, it was like, oh, Lake up in Dunley, they appear to be disagreeing on what to do though. I don't know. I haven't asked around. I haven't, I literally just saw it before we went on. I don't really even get how that became publicized. But I will say those things are often blown up into being more than they are. Sometimes they're not like when KD and Kyrie were seeing coming around at the All-Star game in 2018 or 2019. Yeah, it turned out they were maybe talking about teaming up. I saw, I just, Dunley, he said I saw, I just remember that I saw it. He said that Lake, I was asking, why don't you just make the pick right away? Why are we gonna milk every second of the clock? And Dunley, he said like, let's, let's take our time. We have five minutes to take five minutes. And he was like, let's just, we want the axle. Let's just take the axle, you know, and don't wait. Oh, but then who cares? That's, that's a nothing burger. To me, look, as a consumer of the draft, sometimes I'm like, really, we need, we need five minutes for Cambuser Memphis. Like, we just, as you just call that one in right off the bat. Like, but I guess you do, like, it's your job to if someone calls you and is like, we'll give you 17 first round picks in this player. You got, you know, you got to be ready for it. So I don't make, make, make much of that. Let's talk about some big men. There's always players that you see when you're, what, when you're trying to watch other players. And that was the case for Chris Sennak, for me, from Houston. I kind of liked him, and I liked Boston taking a center. And then you had the spurs taking two big men, which had people raising their eyebrows a little bit. What did you make of those picks? Yeah, I mean, with Quentin, it's all about the future. I mean, there was a lot of concern and the lead up to the draft about his knee, you know, he tore his ACL at Arizona State. And then he only played four games this year, and then he shut it down. And, you know, there was some stuff that come up in the medical with like cartilage floating around in his knee. And, you know, it's pretty clear that he's going to probably need to have another procedure. Now, is it a procedure that knocks him out three months? Or is it a procedure that knocks him out the entire season? We'll see him in NBA teams often air on the SATA caution, especially when it comes to guys who are 18 years old. And so it would not surprise me if, you know, Jaden Quentin says the guy that they're betting on long term. And Tara Sread, who they also drafted as a guy who's ready to play right now. I mean, he's turning 23 years old. He's one of the most productive big men in college basketball. And they, you know, we saw him to play off that, you know, you need to figure out a way to rest. Victor Wimba Niyama a little bit more. I mean, he was pretty gasped at times. And, you know, is this rookie? He knows you're asking the 20s. Is that going to be the guy that does that? I'm not sure. But finding a way to get Victor like, you know, I the ability to catch his breath, especially in the in the regular season. I think it's important and just show because I mean, it's such a long season that they just went through and so it makes sense. I think to draft two bigs and, you know, if one of them turned out, I think you did well, especially with picks in the 20s. All right, today's NBA draft reactions was presented by State Farm. State Farm is here with agents and easy to use digital tools, like the State Farm app to help set you up with personalized coverage, a feature of life and budget like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer price and eligibility vary by state. Okay, wrapping up draft stuff. I kind of chuckled at Liberent Phylawn Jr. to the Sixers. Not chuckled because I don't think he's good. I kind of liked what I saw from him. He felt a little bit further than maybe I expected actually based on based on some stuff. I don't know if we can talk about that if you want. I just chuckled only because it's like the new front office. I'm like, hey, sorry, we traded Jared McCain. Here's another guard. Here's another fun combo guard for us to put with Maxi and Edgecomb. Sorry about that. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't shocked by by by Liberent Phylawn going 22nd. I actually, I see I had him on my board 23rd. So you went right around where I thought he would go. You know, the smaller guards, 176 pounds, the defensive side. There's some question marks there. You know, there was some stuff that came up in the Intel also that people, you know, had some questions about. And I mean, but it's a, it's an interesting spot for him because, you know, they're going to need somebody to soak up minutes in the regular season. And he's, he's a bucket. I mean, he's a guy that you can bring off the bench and he's going to, he's going to be able to score for you. So, you know, he's only 20 years old and obviously needs to work on his body. He needs to find another gear defensively. But I mean, there's some real talent there for Liberent Phylawn. He made, you know, he made a big jump from last year to this. And so I think, you know, you can never have too many guards. As Mike Gancy said, before I let you go, any other winners, losers, perplexers, anything after that first round as we live for the second round. Now, that you want to get off your chest. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, this was the first time that I've been, that I watched the draft from home since I moved to New York in 2008. I've been to the draft every single year since. And I, I was honestly a little bit underwhelmed. I don't know if it was just because it was so chalky or because, you know, there wasn't really a single trade of like an actual MBA player, which you don't normally see, I think, during the draft and all kinds of boring trades, like the nicks, the lakers trading $3 million to the nicks, you know, to move up one spot. You know, it's like, really is nicks. You need $3 million, you know, like that's what we're doing here. And so I just felt like I was a little bit bored, to be honest to you. And I don't know what exactly I was expecting, but like being there at the draft, like it feels like such a big event and it feels like the stakes are so high. And I just watching from home, I didn't get that impression at all. I was watching it at first with my kids and they were just like, this is really boring. Now we're going to bed. And so, you know, that was, that was one thing that stood out, you know, other than that. I mean, I thought, you know, the lakers, the lakers moving up, you know, like that was interesting. I thought, I mean, they obviously really liked camp car enough for their owner to say, here's $3 million, go move up one spot. You know, when it was pretty obvious that the nicks were not even going to take camp car. And maybe they were concerned that, you know, somebody else is going to trade into that spot. And so they really wanted camp car. I mean, he's a little bit, I mean, he was in the green room and ended up, I think at 25. So that's a good little swing for the, for the lakers, I think. I was a little bit disappointed for some of these guys that, you know, were underclassmen that had the opportunity to go back to school that had, you know, gigantic NIL offers on the table. You know, for $45 million, talking about guys like co-op, like Malik Thomas, like Henry Vesar, Isaiah Evans, you know, these guys took like three to four plus $1 million haircuts last night. And, you know, that, you know, in this era, like, you know, I wonder like, okay, these guys, shouldn't they have the ability to go back to school now, some of them, especially the guys that didn't go in the first round. Co-op Pete was the last pick of the first round. He got drafted by his hometown team, the Phoenix Suns. That's awesome for him. His family gets to be at every game all that, you know, I'm sure like it might be, you know, Arizona had $4.5 million in the table for him. I mean, like, I wonder if there's any regret there, but I would love to see in the future that these guys, these Malik Thomas, who, you know, this guy was a freshman, decided to stay in the drafts, could have gone back to Arkansas, Henry Vesar, would have been one of the faces of college basketball had he gone back to North Carolina, Isaiah Evans, who's had Duke, you know, two more years of eligibility, I kind of wish for them that they would have the ability to go back to school now and, you know, pull their name out of the draft by, let's say noon or something like that. But, you know, we got some work to do in that regard. Yeah, Co-IP was, we talked about it a couple of years ago, it was the most obvious fall or like the reworked jumper really freaked people out and he ends up in 30 and we'll see how that goes. My favorite part of watching the draft, everyone focuses on the fashion, fashion school, like the fashion go crazy, go big, go bold, go grady dick, all of it. I like the agent bro hugs after the guys are drafted from the green room because I now know all the agents. And so, and the agents are often much shorter than the players. So it's like, it's a dicey, like, how do you go in there? And some of them, they try and look cool and casual and like they'll go for the high five bro hug. Some of them keep it super casual and just a handshake. Some of them emote more than others and get a little more genuinely emotional and let their, let their emotions be on their sleeves for the world to see, I like the bro hug. Like, what's your style of bro hug, how much control do you do take of your emotions? That's why that's my fair part now of the draft. I just love watching them see them fidget, you know, these are like, these guys are like all millionaires are so powerful, they control the NBA and then this one moment where like all the lies come to ruse, like, you know, the hands of these workouts, they don't, you know, they're trying to control the draft in this way or another. And then some of them end up falling and then you see them kind of, it's such an awkward moment for them to see the agent sitting there with the parents and it's like, all these false promises that they made, you're going to be drafted here, you're going to be drafted there and, you know, I have so much power, I have so much control, I can get this team to do this and that and they're sitting there powerless and like, that's the part. I don't know. that why, but I just enjoy that so much. - I enjoy when, whether it's an agent, or somebody at the table gets left hanging sometimes, especially when it's the agent, who's got like, they've been waiting, if it's a young agent in particular, they've been waiting for this like, televised green room moment, their guy gets drafted. It's like, maybe it's their first like big guy, they're up there, they're smiling, they've got the hand up, and the player goes like, mom, dad, brother, sister, coach, up to the podium, and like the agent's like, yep, great, great, just recovers and turns the left hang and high five into a clap, all right, John Vigaboni, Draft Express, Twitter, what else, what else do you want to say? You got to go do the second round now. - Yeah, come to my TikTok. - Come to TikTok, I don't know what's going on on TikTok, but apparently Gavoni's there. Thanks, but I'll see you in person soon. - Thanks, Zach. - All right, that's it for today. Barring Simnus will be back next week, as usual, thank you to John Vigaboni and Kurt Goldsbury, thanks as always to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production. It takes you all for listening to and/or watching the Zach Lo Show. We'll see you next week. - 21 are over and president select states for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Starkisino or 18 and over in president DC. You can tuck your Wyoming gambling problem. Call one in 100 gambler or 1-800-my-reset. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7's important Massachusetts or call 1-877-8 Hope-NY or text Hope-NY in New York for Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.