George Russell | My big break

Welcome to My Big Break from Motorsport, a podcast that explores the major moments in the careers of key Formula One figures and how they met different forks in the road that led them to where they are today. I'm Chris Bedland and today I'm joined by new Mercedes driver George Russell to discuss the options that represented to him as a junior, the contract offer that had Mercedes saying he would never drive for them and the crucial races that led to a seat with Williams and ultimately promotion to a world championship winning team. Even if progress looks easy from the outside, it's never quite as simple as it seems. George thanks so much for joining us at the end of what has been a crazy season and one when you're about to step up to Mercedes but we're going to look at the path that has taken you there and the crucial performances, moments, people that played a key part in that happening. And the first question really is in an earlier one of these podcasts in this series, Alex Alban says he basically was the talent scout that picked you out for the Intrepid Driver Programme. That he was? Yeah. Here we go. So is that true? That is a memory that has passed by on me but I do recall so Intrepid Driver Programme was a team manufacturer in Gokart in that in between 2010 and 2013 they were a team to be with and they would do these days sort of an assessment of a load of drivers. Alex was their driver at the time and I arrived and you do a bit of an assessment and how do you fare against, you know, world champion at the time, Alex Alban. So maybe he made my career here so all the talk about me helping him get a Williams drive maybe it all started vice versa. Yeah, you've just repaid the favour now. Absolutely, absolutely. But yeah, he did say that you were tough to shake off so you were a year below him I think. Yeah, I've been, I think actually two years below Alex, Alex is two years older than me. He's definitely always at least been one year ahead of me. So until it was our Formula 3 days, we never really raced each other because he was always in the junior category when I was in the mini category, he was in the senior category when I was in the junior category so I think that's why we were quite good friends as well growing up because we never had that rivalry because we were never competing in the same category. Did you have rivalries with other drivers though? Was there anyone that would stand out when you first started in karting or even in cars that you were like I've got to beat that guy to really impress? I'd say my biggest rivalry in go karting was a guy called Ben Barnico who sort of came through the ranks with me and he was my rival from my very first championships I was racing. It was called WTP which I believe stood for Watching the Pennies which is quite funny and then into Coma Cadet and then through to KF3 there was always this bit of a rivalry and we had quite a few incidents along the way and then we ended up being teammates in Formula 3 and became good friends so again it was interesting how these things turn around and he's actually been doing a lot of simulator work for Mercedes, I'm not even sure I'm allowed to say that but I'm sure it's fine, we'll find that afterwards but he's a really great guy and a really great driver. Oh sorry Toto's ringing, he says the deal's off. You mentioned KF3 there actually, you won the European Championship in 2012 and then looked like 2013 was a bit of a tougher year, what happened there because for a lot of drivers it seems to be largely like momentum builds early on and if you get a stumble for some they don't go much further so what happened for you? That was a tough year, so I had a couple of different options when I moved up from a junior category into the senior one so I won the European Championship in KF3 in 2011 and 2012 and then in 2013 when I moved to the senior category I wasn't too sure which route to take in terms of which team to join and I had an offer from a factory team to have a factory drive with Bureau Motorsports, so Bureau was a manufacturer and they were just going through a really tough period at the time, they were the team to be with in the KZ categories, the gearbox category but in the KF category they only had three cars on the grid out of 80 or 90, however many were at all of these events and just really struggled so that was a real learning year for me and that was probably, there were probably two seasons I looked back on in my career, 2013 and 2015 which I think really moulded me as a driver to learn to deal with not winning and to learn to deal with disappointments because up until that moment I'd had a pretty, without trying to sound arrogant, had a pretty flawless junior career, won in everything I raced, 2013 was the first year that I didn't win anything and that was quite a shock to the system but I guess it taught me to be more resilient and taught me to work hard and look at things from a different angle and a different perspective because you're not always going to be in a scenario that you've got the opportunity to win and I guess that also helped when I joined Williams, these two years of experience when I didn't win helped me to accept the struggles of 2019 because I knew it's just a phase and I knew that those years wouldn't define me negatively if anything, they will mould me into a better driver. You responded well at Williams to that sort of situation but in 2013 when you're much younger did you respond well then? I'd say in 2013 with Birrell I responded fine but potentially with a bit of arrogance that I was blaming the equipment which then hindered me when I got into F3 with Carlin because I then, 2014 I moved to Formula 4, I won Formula 4, did some Formula Renault races, a European Championship won a race there so sort of the winning ways were back and then I went to Carlin in Formula 3, won the very first round of a field of 35 cars and then I was off the pace and I was blaming the equipment rather than looking at myself so they were two quite different seasons and I guess in a way because I knew in 2013 the equipment wasn't the best, I was quite at ease because I was out performing my teammates quite drastically and then I guess also equally at Williams in 2019 I knew that we didn't have a car that was even close to us being able to score points so maybe at one race I could have been a 1/10 behind my optimal, you don't really recognise that, you don't really know that but when you're really in the thick of it and fighting for it and that 1/10 is missing that's where it becomes really difficult and that was me to be honest during the 2015 F3 season, I was teammates with Antonio Givernazzi who was in his third year of Formula 3, he was one of the favourites to win the championship and for the first half of the year I was a 10th and a half, 2/10 behind and I just did not understand why and that naivety of saying must be car, car, car as opposed to what can I do to improve to maybe, you know I haven't gone slower as a driver but I needed to work harder to get more out of the car and my team and at the end of the day you are one big package together and that's where that was probably the killer year for me that really helped me the years after. You mentioned 15, I mean it was an incredible field looking at it, I've got the list here, so Felix Rosenqvist won the title from Antonio, from your teammate, you're talking like you really really didn't perform well at all but then it was in terms of rookies, Charles was fourth, Lance Troll fifth, you're self sixth and Alex was seventh, so I mean that's a pretty strong field and strong set of results for everyone in that top seven, did you know the talent around you at that point, were you looking at these guys and going like these are people I could end up, if I can reach F1 so can these guys? You can say no if not, no no I think you don't even recognise it during your younger days because you know for example with Charles or even Max and Ocon you know you're racing these guys throughout all of your carton days that was just the level so we knew nothing else that this was just the level and that's if you wanted to win you had to beat these guys as you went through the ranks that just felt like that was the level, I guess it's only now that we are in Formula One we look back and think that was quite a grid of drivers we were racing against and how we obviously performed in Formula One today, but again I think even for a number of us it was tough because we went into a field, I think Felix Rogengfist was in his fifth or sixth season of Formula Three, Antonio was in his third season, Jake Dennis was there also in his third season, these guys had so much experience we were young kids coming in and we weren't with the top team who was prema, prema were the team to be with, if you were in a prema you got a good chance of winning and so I think that was tricky for all of us and if anything we probably performed worse throughout the mid part of the season because we weren't used to not being able to win every single week and because we were young kids and trying to understand how to deal with this difficulty for us that actually held us back for quite a bit whereas if I went in with the mentality saying right I am going up against the guys who have been here for six years, five years, four years, who are probably in slightly superior cars to us, like Givenacci for me was the man to beat that year, for me he was the best driver of the season but I don't believe the carling car was anywhere close to the performance of the prema car so I am going up against the guy who was at the top of his game in a Formula 3 car and I was a tenth behind and I thought what on earth is going on, I have come in as a rookie only one year in singles heaters and I am one tenth behind the man to beat and I am thinking the world is over for me what is going on and that mentality is what probably held me back even more whereas if I had the mentality he is the man to beat, he has been here three years and I have come in one at the first round but on average I am only one tenth behind after one or two races and he has been here for three years I will be fine and I will get there but that arrogance probably held me back to not having a stronger year. But that shows I guess what your targets were or how high you were aiming but by the time you were in F3 you were talking pretty serious budgets already, who was or how was the support coming together for you, through carting sometimes that seems to be like almost privately funded but at some stage someone has to start putting the money up that is going to keep opening those doors for you, how did that come about essentially, who did you convince to say I have got potential you should be jumping on this train? To be honest through my Formula 4 days it was still family funded to be honest and that 2015 year was my last year of, we got a very good deal with the team because they backed me and actually ironically not many people may know this but Joss Capito was obviously the head of Volkswagen at the time, I was racing with Carlin who was a Volkswagen engine and it was actually Joss who was supporting a couple of drivers in Formula 3 and chose me to be one of his drivers so they effectively sponsored the engine side of things which contributed to a huge amount of the budget in Formula 3 so that was quite funny how these things work out in turn but that was my last season and without any backing from that 2015 season I would almost say the journey was over. But then if that was Joss sponsoring you in a sense, what did Volkswagen want in return? Was it just because they thought you had the potential to go far or was there an option then that if they ever did certain categories that you would have to talk to them? No obligation whatsoever, they supported, they raced in Formula 3 alongside Mercedes and a couple of other private manufacturers on the engine side and they just wanted to support who they believe were the top talent at the time because they wanted to beat Mercedes as Mercedes wanted to beat Volkswagen so it was quite a normal thing back in the old F3 days that Mercedes would support a couple of drivers and potentially give a bit of preferential treatment maybe not but the same with Volkswagen you know they would try and look after these guys, we want to give our top engines our top equipment to these guys because they are going to be our best shot at winning championship and trying to beat the Mercedes backed drivers so that was I guess it was almost for bragging rights really. But then so you were competing against Mercedes and then suddenly you become a Mercedes driver like how did that, is that because you impressed them do you think? So I was already having conversations with Toto Mercedes prior to joining Carlin and Volkswagen but I felt so I actually had the deal on the table to have almost the same back in from Mercedes as I had from Volkswagen but because of there wasn't an opportunity open at Prima the next team I would have had to join would be a German team called Mucka Motorsport who I felt for my first season at F3 wouldn't be as well suited to me as a British team in Carlin, so after my meeting with Toto at the start of 2015 I sent him an email just to say really appreciate the meeting and thanks for all of your advice etc just to let you know I'll actually be joining Carlin and Volkswagen as opposed to Mucka Motorsport and Mercedes because I believe it's better for my career and I had the opinion that if I went out and did a good job Mercedes would still be interested so you know he replied back to me and I think you're making a wrong decision let's stay in touch and let's see where we go from there. Well I guess in a sense it was the right decision because you ended up with Mercedes but did he then take any convincing did he you know did it feel a bit cold at first that he was like well he didn't you know he didn't sign it this time so I'm not going to come chasing you too hard? No not really because I think I'm trying to remember exactly what happened at certain points in the season but I then later that year in 2015 I then had an offer from BMW to race in DTM I did a test with BMW in December in Hereth and they sent one of their factory drivers from DTM as the reference driver and we ended up being faster than the reference and Mercedes were there doing a rookie test with their factory driver and they had chosen rookies Audi were there doing a test as well I remember Givernazzi was doing that test back in 2015 and everybody could see the time so everybody could see by the end of that day it wasn't public but privately you could see that we're the fastest time of the day and there was an engineer who shifted from BMW to Mercedes and I think potentially he was quite influential in saying this guy was going to be fast and you need to sign him before BMW do so I had the contract on the table from BMW ready almost ready to sign it and that's when I got the phone call from Gwen Lagrue in January 2016 sat in the bath actually to say I want to have a conversation about joining Mercedes and that's where it all started already. So can you name the engineer but you can thank for that or you're not allowed to because they moved. No, I'll keep that between us because I'm not even, this is me putting two and two together I'm not even sure that was the case but I just thought it was quite coincidental but as well it may not have just been the engineer because as I said the times were public to all of the teams who were there so everybody could see how every driver was performing how their race pace was how their quality performance was and compared to the factory driver as each factory team had taken their factory driver as the reference to see how the Rockies are comparing so maybe that was the reason. But if you decide with BMW was that going to move you away from F1 completely? Oh it was absolutely clear from Mercedes they said if you sign with BMW you know there won't be an option with Mercedes in the future so the deal on the table for Mercedes was an option so it was racing Formula 3 for one more year with a Mercedes back team which was high tech and you'll come and do all of the simulator work for Mercedes F1 we'll see how you get on, see how you're performing on track, how you're performing off track and we'll make a decision in October that year if we take you there's a chance we might not take you there's a chance we will take you but if you sign the BMW contract you know we're out. So I've got this contract on the table from BMW which is to go and race DTM which at the time was an incredibly probably the best championship after Formula 1 I was a 16 year old at the time, 16, 17 year old, a lot of money on the table and it was all quite shocking like it all came so sudden, well I've done this test, the test went incredibly well, the contracts on the table three days later, I've not really had any communications with F1 teams and the conversation with Toto's were positive but I'm not too sure if it's going to lead to something but this is on the table now and they needed a decision to be taken and then suddenly Mercedes pick up the phone but they weren't offering anything concrete, it was you've got to take a chance, I have to take a chance on them, they might turn around and say I'm sorry but then the BMW door is closed as well but the big difference is this is Mercedes and that was Formula 1 and that was BMW and that was DTM, you know it was, I was a 17 year old and you had to take that risk, I guess if it didn't work out I'd potentially be regretting it but it did work out and here we are, you said so it was October that year you had to convince them and it wasn't the easiest year was it that second anniversary? No it wasn't, I mean HiTech were a completely new team in Formula 3, I was actually a team mate with Ben Barnico so back with my rival from my Cadet days in the UK and Nikita Mazepin and Mercedes were absolutely aware of the how superior Premier were compared to everybody else on the grid, I finished third and I had a Premier who in the Lance Troll who won Premier finished second and the Premier finished fourth in the championship and I don't know where the fourth Premier finished that season but I only won two races but they recognised the performance I was achieving in that car compared to my teammates and the performance I was doing on the simulator I think I was a bit of an asset for them in the simulator work, I was doing many many days, they were long brutal days in the simulator and the guys worked incredibly hard and pushed me to work incredibly hard and I think all of it together they said right let's take a chance and let's go next year in GP3. So originally I was thinking that you were going to say GP3 was a bit of a make or break year because the year before maybe hadn't been a title winning one and I needed to prove it to Mercedes but if they'd seen that in you I assume they were much more content and happy with you going into GP3 but when did you then get the feeling from them that they're saying you win this title in GP3 or you just get yourself to F2 and do well there and this path is to Formula 1, how early were you aware that it really did look feasible for you? Mercedes and Toto made it incredibly clear they said at the time I was one of three junior drivers, they were over two, we're in F1 they said we don't take a junior driver for no reason we take it because we believe in you and we believe you have the potential so it was clear what the path was at the time there were other driver academies who had hundreds of drivers, whether that's right or wrong I don't know it gives them a bit more flexibility I guess but Mercedes said we believe in you we believe we got the potential and we want to help you develop to get into Formula 1 and obviously one day be a Mercedes driver so it was clear from their side if you win you'll be in F1, you do a good job with Williams you'll be in a Mercedes car and it was as simple as that, Toto always said leave me to do my thing which is the political side running the team but also helping me find these opportunities, you just focus on the racing, if you win GB3 you'll be in F2, if you win F2 you'll be in F1, you do a good job with Williams you'll be in a Mercedes and when it's laid down on the table like that it sounds pretty straight forward I'm not saying that easy but he's right you don't need to worry about anything else you just worry about driving, if you perform he will make it happen that's what happened. Now before we get on to Williams actually your first test I was in a Force India and I remember after that test actually it was actually your FP1 running into Lagos Bob Furnley saying how impressed he was with you but you were perhaps too nice and they were going to beat that out of you, do you think you were too nice when you first came into F1 did you have to find a different edge or do you think actually you just evolved naturally into the most comfortable position for you? I think you've got to have a balance, I was 18 year old at the time and you can't come in with a load of arrogance thinking you're better than everybody else and you're going to prove it because similar to the F3 year I'm going up against Espinocon who was performing at the top of his game doing really really well in that Force India car, I've got one session to try and prove to everybody what I can do, never driven with Force India before, never driven around into Lagos before, never been with those engineers before, you know so much to learn, yeah I guess I was, I'd like to think I'm still quite nice now, I don't, you know you're in this big team together, you know the Force India guys who are obviously the Aston Martin team of today were great great people and I still say hello to them every single time I walk into the paddock and I think that was, that was the journey we were sort of destined for with following in Okon's footsteps almost because that path had worked for him as a Mercedes driver and that seemed like the natural path for myself as well. Now I think it's almost easy to look at then what you did in terms of junior career results and you said it yourself if you win GP3, if you win F2 you're going to end up in F1 and you did, but getting the Williams seat, like what are you told when you're sitting around waiting and you're being linked to this iconic team and your first F1 seat, are you kept in the loop, are you just waiting for someone to pick up the phone and say to you, right that's what you're doing next year, how much are you aware of? I mean I was aware a lot that I had a very good chance because I was doing the simulator assessments at the factory, I was involved in a couple of meetings, Toto and Gwen and James Val was actually, I'd say there were three key people who have been by my side along this journey, they were constantly keeping me in the loop, but it all happened awfully quick to be honest because it needed to be announced at the US Grand Prix because Williams were looking for a title sponsor and that deal was going down in and around the US Grand Prix, so I think it was in Russia which potentially was the race before when I basically got the phone call to say right, this is happening, we had one week to sort the contract and it's been announced, I think it was a Tuesday of the US Grand Prix, so it all happened so suddenly and I was still in the mix of trying to win a Formula 2 championship but I came away from a really strong weekend in Sochi and I basically just needed a score before points or something in an avid Abbey to win the championship, so I was pretty relaxed and obviously it was a very surreal moment and it really exhilarated me because as I said it just all happened so quick over the course of two weeks, suddenly these conversations have started, then the simulator assessment, being told you've got the drive and then doing the contracts and then doing the photo shoots and the announcement all happened so suddenly. Was that the sponsor that didn't happen? Yeah, it was the sponsor that didn't happen, so I don't wish to say names because... From my memory, I think it was a bullet that was dodged from the way that one panned out, but then things like that, are you aware, if they're trying to time your announcement for when a sponsor comes in, did it feel like oh, if now they don't have a title sponsor is my seat in jeopardy, that sort of thing, or were you just confident to get something? No, I mean, again, I guess a bit of... I was young and experienced of how... "Helitical" is probably the wrong word, but how on edge it was for so many Formula One teams to find the budget to run the team and it's hinging on a couple of key decisions or moments for a sponsor to say we're going to go with you or not, and that's an incredibly stressful time and I guess I had an incredibly open dialogue with Claire over the coming years and a really great relationship that she really kept me in the loop with a lot of things and taught me actually how these things work and how on edge they were. I'd spent my years with Mercedes Championship winning team, so much glory, people were going to them saying I want to sponsor you, I want to be part of your team and they had free choice of who they wanted to go with to a degree, whereas Williams at the time had finished last, the previous year, having to fight for finding relatively small sponsorship and it was so difficult and I guess success would hinge on these key decisions because it would depend if they could invest new upgrades or trying to further the development of the car, so I soon learned that things were very different for teams at the back of the grid compared to Mercedes Ribble Ferrari. It's fair to say, it's not been easy for Williams over the last few years, but certainly that first year for you as well, but that you've been one of the standout positive moments or aspects of that team, you knew already from Mercedes' point of view that if you performed well they would put you in a Mercedes car, was there a race, was there a moment that you went, that's the one that's clinched it, either because they told you or because you felt it that you did something that's head to them, yeah, like we can put them in? We signed a pretty rock solid contract with Williams, so these three years were clear. There was no movement there whatsoever, Claire was pretty clear and to be honest she had a very good deal from her side because she had all of the power, Williams were the last seat in Formula One, it was that or I wasn't an F1, so she could really tighten that contract down, but it was all in Williams' favour, obviously you want to have a bit of flexibility because nobody knew how the team would perform, but we had faith at the time that the team would go back to some better results and we were ready to do the three years there because I thought it would be really good for my development and as it seemed to pan out, I think it has been very good for my development, but I guess Bahrain was, last year was the key moment that if there were any doubters they were, the doubts were gone, so the key people who would have made the difference in my career, a total, he ultimately is the one who has the final say, he believed in me and he had faith in me even when I was finishing last every single weekend, so for me that race obviously potentially proved a point to so many others, at the end of the day it's Toto who makes the decision and because he followed my career so closely, I guess he believed he knew what I was capable of, so that race probably didn't really change anything in his mind whatsoever, but to the outside world so many others may have thought okay, it's clear why he wants to go down that route but I guess for everybody that was a standout race and a pretty crazy one when I look back at it. Well, just to finish, obviously you did the third year this year and you probably got your rewards I think and Williams has got theirs as a partnership with some of the results you've had and being able to really show all that effort and time that you put in, it came to fruition this year, but if Claire didn't have that watertight contract, I know it's before Bahrain, but there were talks about you going into the Mercedes for this year, were you under that impression that if Mercedes could have had you, you would have been moving on quicker? As if some buts isn't it, I mean they are conversations that didn't even really happen because we knew how watertight the contract was, so you know the contracts, Mercedes you know created a contract and worked with Williams on my behalf, so they were aware that Williams had all of the power, so what I admire so much from Mercedes and Toto is how loyal they are to their own, you know Valtteri has been such a key figure, key driver for them to help them achieve all of these world championships along the way, you know there's a lot of people can say some negative things or being off the pace of Lewis Hamilton, but you know he's been an incredibly important part to all of that success and they want to reward that with their loyalty and maybe if you went through one or two bad races throughout last year they're not just going to get the axe out and say thank you very much and see you later, we give us not how we do things, we give people the full opportunity and the full chance and you know I'm a 23 year old from their side, there's no need to rush, we've got the whole future ahead and I guess that loyalty brings faith to me as a driver, equally to the 2,000 employees that Mercedes have between Brackley and Bricksworth, if I work hard and I perform the goods they are going to reward me with that loyalty and I don't have to have any concerns about my job or my future and you probably go ahead and perform even better, so I guess that's what I really admire from those guys and they certainly do things quite different to other teams down the grid, so I've got to be very grateful and thankful to have a guy like Toto as your boss, I'm sure, that loyalty, that he's shown in Valtteri if I perform, he'll show to me and everybody else when they do a good job. Absolutely, just like a GB3 days, go out and do a job as simple as that. Well we look forward to seeing how you get on George, thank you very much for your time. Thank you, cheers. [Music]