George Kordis: The Journey of a Master Iconographer

This is luminous conversations on sacred arts coming to you from the Institute of Sacred Arts at St. Vladimir's Seminary in Yonkers, New York. Welcome! Last month, in other words, June of 2025, George Cordis brought his writing the light iconography school back to our Yonkers campus. We've recently renovated a large space here with copious natural light and tall ceilings and christened it as our sacred arts room. So it was a special joy to see that room filled with 30 students, floor easels, table easels, students painting and periodically gathering around George in the central space where he would work and teach. As many of you know, George Cordis is a world-renowned iconographer whose work can be found in churches, museums and sacred spaces around the world. He's also a pho allogen, a teacher, someone who has really thought through his work. He's uniquely able to communicate his holistic sense of art, culture and theology. As you can tell, I admire George very much and I'm happy to count him as a dear friend. In this spirit, I sat with George while he was here for an evening together with him and his students and some seminary friends for the conversation you are about to hear. I had done this before and you'll notice that we published another conversation with George a couple of episodes ago. That one revolved a lot around theory about how sacred art follows secular art and culture and such subjects. This conversation took a different direction. I think you're really going to enjoy it. We spoke a year ago and there's an old joke, you know, it's actually a whole series of jokes that it's all the same theme and like in this one it's a monastery that is so strict. They have a code of silence for an entire year and each year one person in the community can say one thing and so one year comes around and a monk gets up during the meal and says the food here is too salty. A year passes and another monk gets up and says no it's not salty enough and then another year passes and the abbot says you two stop arguing. After a year we meet again with George and so I'm Peter Bhutanif. I've taught at this seminary for 25 years now and one of the areas of activity that I'm involved in is a podcast. It's called luminous conversations on sacred arts and I speak with a wide variety of people. We have about 60 episodes up and my engineer and co-producer is right here search a Sorgan life-long friend and cousin actually and a sound engineer by profession and so tonight's conversation as the last one is being recorded for an episode of luminous. Have any of you heard an episode from this podcast? You know because if you have or if you haven't I really recommend you listen to last year's conversation with George. I listen to it again in preparation for this one and very very special. So George again thank you for being here and good evening. Thank you. Thank you Peter thank you for being here definitely and for having been invited again to have let's say a new conversation or continue the old one. A continue of the old one you know. Last year's conversation was fascinating because we we talked as we often do about what does it mean to say sacred arts contested term. We talked about art and culture we talked in some detail about the world of iconography the language of iconography and my thought this year was to ask you more about yourself and your past and in this way learn about you but I suspect that we will gain insight about art about church art about iconography through what you tell us a little bit about your life. Is that all right with you to speak a little bit? I suppose. I'll try not to embarrass you. Last year already you said a few things about your teacher I remember who you were classmates I think. Yes. I'd like to go back further and ask you how you started painting how you started drawing how you started to embark in the world of art. Well that's a good question but I would say a very difficult question for me. As a kid I didn't have any relationship with art basically I had in the schools I had no classes about art at all there were no classes in Greece you know the sixties or seventies and it was nothing like that and personally I loved soccer and I was playing soccer and actually I wanted to be a professional soccer player and I could I was really good. You were good I was very fast I had great sense of rhythm and I could be but anyway when I was almost almost 18 years old I visited a friend and I saw him painting a landscape something and I was really I was thrilled from what I was watching so I asked him Andonis that was his name Anthony can I can I try? It opened of course come on please so I took some brushes and oil painting and I just painted a landscape in in a few minutes something like that and I discovered that I can paint so that changed my whole life completely so I stopped not playing soccer but I stopped I stopped wanted to be a soccer player and I'm practically I have started studying the art of painting with some friends at the beginning then some teachers and that became the dream of my life. So accidentally I didn't know that I could paint and it was really incredible because I could do that very easily that was the easiest thing in my life and you hadn't known before this one in country or nothing nothing so and after that of course when I was and I was I was painting not not icons I didn't know much about you know visiting painting of course I knew visiting painting you know if you live in Greece you know because it's everything of course it's several work about I haven't studied and I didn't have any special interest you know in this art I was at the beginning I was painting some expressionistic things I love expressionism I never wanted to copy things I didn't like copying so expressionism was something I would say the most convenient thing for my personality and during my studies in the School of Theology I met father Simion my teacher and actually he introduced into visiting painting I can painting many other things. So you just mentioned in passing that you entered School of Theology how did that happen? Well I would say that that happened because of soccer really yeah I had two options I could study philosophy that was my first choice and theology but if I had to study philosophy I had to move to Thessaloniki that means that I had to stop playing soccer so I have decided to go to theology because that could be combined with soccer but when I entered the school I I loved theology because there I had discovered that theology is it is philosophy at the same time I had great teachers and I think that that was the best thing that happened in my life first and then of course painting. So these were two separate oddices I guess maybe the uniting factor is soccer of course. Yes exactly. And in each case I'm hearing a kind of a sense of unexpected discovery a kind of an unexpected love. I had no plans about both these things if someone could ask me when I was 80 years old I would never say that I was going to be theologian and painter and I can painter never and after a few years I was both. Yeah so that was a real it was a real surprise. What do you think the relationship is between your discovery of enjoying these things and your discovery that you were actually quite good at them? Well I first had discovered that I could do that easily. Yes but quite soon I discovered that I was not good. Because first I didn't I didn't want to copy so I tried I went to some schools where you students were not students but young people or preparing themselves for entering the School of Fine Arts and they had models they have you know objects to copy you know the old system of you know exams for the School of Fine Arts but I discovered that I didn't like that at all. So I have I have started observing the world around people their positions movements and stuff like that and I tried to reproduce that you know from memory and that was a very difficult path because you had to remember many many visual informations and that was not easy. So at the beginning I realized that this is what I want to do this kind of painting I would like to do but this is difficult because you don't have any any reference you don't have something to copy so you have to remember you have to recompose things so that was difficult. So rather than painting like a sitting model or yes exactly you see something like a copy. Okay there are several systems for sure. Copying you know I didn't like to do that I didn't like that at all and the other way was more you know good for me but difficult. So I realized that it was difficult I was struggling for years visiting some artists to see you know what they do and how they do I had to learn many things about materials and techniques and stuff like that but was not so difficult because there were books and stuff I could get this kind of information but the other thing the stylistic thing that was really difficult and in that period I met my father's senior my teacher so and through him I I entered I was introduced and entered the the Byzantine painting system and then it was a completely new chapter. I want to hear about that chapter of course but so this initial discovery that your initial kind of work landscape painting and you suddenly realize this coming easily then you enter a period where it's not easy it's it was easy but it was not it was not nice I didn't like okay I didn't like it right but then well still I don't like what I do but that's another thing but then back then I didn't I didn't I really I was realizing that it is not good doesn't have the quality say I I wanted when you say you don't like what you do do you mean you don't like the the the act of it or you don't like the product I definitely like the art you like process definitely you like the process yes but the final product it's not it's not always what do you have envisioned and that's a problem because when you paint without coping actually you're following a kind of vision a vision you have in your mind in your heart and it's very very difficult to reach that vision actually so when you finish the work something is missing so and but secondly you don't really like what you have done maybe it's really good it's very good but it's not exactly what what you I don't know what you have read it it's almost like many of us are disappointed with what we've been able to say like I can't fully express what I want to express I can only give a few exactly the halting words right and even if they're nice words they don't ultimately they're not true to my vision okay yeah right so this was an issue for you from early on it sounds like from the beginning okay yeah yeah right so you meet Father Simian and the the journey of theology and the journey of art begin to come together who is he how did how did he have this effect on you Father Simian yes he's among he's from Cyprus he's a person from the past he lived in a small village in in the old Cyprus out of cities and I would say that he he carries the old traditions of Cyprus and Byzantium everything and especially in the the field of ecclesiastic life and he is he wasn't he is still he's a very poetic person and basically I think that that factor helped me to be introduced into Byzantine painting because what he had presented to me was not just a technique or just a mode to paint an icon right actually he had presented a poetry and that's why I think that I follow this way because this is what I believe that this art it is a kind of poetry can you can you say more it will be imperfect whatever we say tonight is imperfect but about poetry so how is he expressing himself in poetry in such a way that it suddenly brings out in you this this spark when he wanted to tell me something about let's say icons or church life things like that it was not exposing you know theological ideas or things like that he was telling me stories from his his grandmother and stories from the old people and stories from the old people in nature and how nature was an organic part of their life and how there was kind of unity between all these things so I think that it's a beautiful way to describe very real things through real stories not you know through I would say theoretical ideas or something like that which is fine but the other thing is more true more authentic I think of the word abstraction abstraction can be a negative thing like it it sort of takes a reality and messes it up or something but abstraction is also it's not merely conveying data it's it's it's what art really is right and and that can happen verbally as poetry and story and visually yeah so so he lit that flame as it were and did this then turn your artistic focus in the direction of Byzantine painting or at least I can say church painting well I don't know exactly now when I when I first invited to you know to the monastery he was staying in the Pendele monastery for that period and I had invited me just to visit the monastery and spend some time together and he wanted to show me something so when I went there I haven't been there because I was living very really very far from that place so he he wanted to show me the exonartics of the monastery in this exonartics I would say contemporary icon painting in Raleigh's Copsidis had painted icons and sins from Old Testament combined with icons of new marrers but actually what he wanted to show me and I understood he didn't tell me anything but I understood what he wanted wanted to show me that the whole thing was painted in traditional but very contemporary mode and plus in a way that all these things were were like a fairy tale in a very poetic mode so when I saw that I knew that that's it this is this is what I want to do in my life and I think that that moment I have decided to follow you know this artistic path I mean what we call today Byzantine painting and many times some of my students who believe that they have analogous you know trends I I'm sending them there to see this specific thing and some of them are really captured not all of them not all okay no no because I don't know sure yeah things differently to different exactly yeah so really beautiful very poetic and very creative thing do you feel like Father Sinian had an inkling that it might affect you in this way yeah yeah yes years later I'm visiting sometimes him in Cyprus he lives in a small monastery close to Larna Canal and we had you know talk about the old days and he told me that he believed that when I will see that that I will be thrilled he knew that his moments in life that you can understand only later you know right yeah so how many years were you actually actively studying theology I've started four years theology then I had to join the army it's all Greeks have to do and then I have started teaching you know religion in high school okay and at the same time I was I was trying to find my way in painting icons and secular themes yes but in the same style yes like Condoglu Condoglu was I would say my teacher basically the the icon painter have mentioned the Ralisco Pseudis he was a Condoglu's disciple yeah so Condoglu was you know the person of reference right so I was trying to do something like that I was studying his books and I was painting icons and secular things secular let's say non-agreacistic themes okay because I don't think that secular is the proper definition but there was always the problem that it's a very difficult world how to do that because in the iconography field it was easy now because I had let's say examples I had all the icons so I could do something but what about painting how to create a new composition how to and that was really really difficult so I have decided to to understand the painting system and at the same time you know I was teaching and I was I was studying and that was that was actually the reason I have decided to proceed to let's say post-graduated studies have a master's and a PhD because I wanted to understand what's happening that took me many many years to understand and still I believe that I haven't understood completely sure yeah did you grow up in the church in some way with some life of faith even as a yes yes but not nothing I would say very very special you know you know regular you know ecclesiastic life yeah right as most of Greeks in my you know era you know back then I suppose you know attending you know services you know the fine little G yes did you pass through a time of doubt disbelief no I wouldn't say no well maybe because of soccer I was dedicated so I didn't have time to spend you know this doubting yeah no take time it was it was a good thing finally definitely yes boy all right everybody soccer right right yeah and actually it was a good very good exercise for my body and I understood that later when I have started working in churches in wall painting understood how useful was that I was really very well you know physically trained yes in my youth so I had the you know the ability to be strong and work in in wall painting because it's really difficult I can see that and I've seen I've seen videos of you painting and I've watched you paint also too it's very physical and yes same ways in walls yeah yeah are there other aspects of your development that that now that you've begun sort of speaking about it that you that you feel would be interesting to to add to what you've already said like I don't know some other aha moment where I don't think so no yeah I thought to ask then a question about inspiration it's a question that I think many artists and writers and creators of all kinds have up and I would say maybe one question is before I even ask you how you find it how you cultivate it whatever is what do you think inspiration is a surgery encourages me to ask this question well that's it I'm a really big and difficult question I don't know I I think that there are different levels let's say that completely accidentally can just have a thought that wow that would be nice to paint something like that the theme or you can see something or you can hear something and say that oh that's a good theme I can do something with that I want to say something about that let's say that it is a kind of inspiration but I don't think that it's the most important thing I think that basically inspiration is what is appeared in your heart basically and creates a kind of atmosphere and in yourself and that finally guides your senses and your hands to render things in a specific mold in a specific way and I think that that's the most important thing and the reason for that I think it's complicated it has to do with the way you lived the way you you have been loved or not the things you you have lost things that you you loved and lost or the nostalgies you have for things that you would live you would like to have so it's complicated it's it's the state of your soul and definitely I don't think that something like that can be described most probably I don't think that we have a conscience about this and that's why everyone has a different kind of inspiration sure and that everyone is attracted from different things and the render of things in a different mode because it's a different person that's such a rich and then let me tell you something more about that and there is another kind of inspiration also that's the inspiration in action so you have all this what I've described and then just take a pencil and you draw a line that follows your vision okay when you draw a line and then a second line a third kind of inspiration starts because they work itself the lines so maybe colors later etc inspires you to do things that you haven't imagined you haven't planned so during the work there is also another kind of inspiration and I would say that another thing is what you have around or what you have in mind for example if Kerry asked me will ask me to create an icon for her that's an inspiration because you're producing something for someone so that inspires you so and definitely affects what you do definitely so yeah but that's why I said from the beginning that it's a very very complicated thing to analyze and put in specific you know parameters part of what you said as the kind of first part of your answer to the big question I put to you is kind of you you're bringing the totality of yourself your soul your experiences your background to your work there's kind of a cliche that says a true artist has to be a person who suffers or certainly you know a blues guitarist that's to be you know you have to suffer to sing the blues there's no such thing as a rich happy blues artist is there any truth to that because I mean you're what you raised what actually you raised both positive and hard hard things you know how you've been loved or how you haven't been loved what you've had what you've lost and and so does one have to suffer to be an artist to be a human definitely any artist must be a sensitive person that means that must be a person whose senses work you have to be able to see to touch you know to hear and that preciposes I think something in your in your heart and basically there thinks that you know hurt you I think that are more responsible for that more and the opposite sometimes very beautiful things that you have lead you have experienced they help you also but basically things I would say negative things that you have experienced do that I would say that activate somehow your heart and your senses because the negative things actually you're missing something and you're looking for that in your whole life and that makes you sensitive for a very generic thing you know very generic you know view of things this idea that you must be sensitive yeah yeah not sensitive is okay but you have to suffer in order to be an artist right right I can't remember which church father said a human being is earth that suffers kind of a beautiful concept because I mean the world is largely material and what distinguishes us in some way is pathos you know right suffering having spoken about inspiration in these ways I'd like to introduce another word that we've talked about and that is creativity we've talked about creativity in relation to tradition tradition is creativity we've we've been there you and me yeah but I just recently had a student write an entire thesis about what is creativity and his question was interesting will there be creativity in the age to come or is creativity only a factor of of of this life of this earthly life but it was an interesting question but on the way to that question he wanted to ask the question what is creativity well it's even that is it's complicated of course even the language is is a problem as a Greek I can define things I would say easier in Greek language creativity is the demure yikotita and creator is demure horse in Greek that means that creator or demure horse is someone who works for the community so not whatever you do is demure year it is something but not always serves the life of community sometimes is the opposite in the Latin creare creativity etc it's a completely different verb and practically means that I'm bringing to life something out of nothing yes and in nowadays yes exactly exactly in our days this is what we have in our minds that you have to produce something that which is original authentic that never existed before and this is creativity that's creativity that's almost an egotistical exactly exactly it's it's about me exactly especially in post-modern in modern and post-modern world that's a that's a meaning that's a meaning if you want to be the creator and to be creative you have to produce new completely new things right and since then the only new thing is you you have to describe yourself in a in the best way so you are creative I don't think that I I agree with this definition it sounds like you don't yes I don't I don't and I don't believe in this and especially in a classiaristic art that will be a real disaster right things to move towards this direction yes and practically I believe that this disaster happens also in the life of the worst of the world exactly because of this because what we do today is to reveal manifest, present ourselves with no care about the consequences about other people we don't really care about community we care just about ourselves express ourselves and that's it okay so what why is that important why it is important to express yourself what's the the importance of yourself why you are important nobody of course can answer something like that because there is nothing important over there there is no no person in history but not Christ was important all other people are important and not that's it the only important history is the community of people and that's the only thing that can give meaning to individual lives otherwise individual lives separated from the communion life it's a chaos it's nothing it's a loneliness it's nothing it doesn't exist actually that's why I believe that one of the things that we should do today in our contemporary or post contemporary western world could be to define again you know the meaning of these things you know of creativity for example you know the meaning of Aris what what artists mean nobody knows nobody cares today we have an explosion of the individualism and nobody I don't know what is produced through through through this process nothing is produced nothing I don't know it's a I'm very very skeptical about this you know contemporary culture I don't know in a moment you know I'll invite questions from any of you by the way but I suspect that among us in the room I don't know and most of you but even if none of us are particularly egotistical I don't know if any of us had had considered creativity as in this communal way that that art finds its meaning only in the service of the community I think there's an intuition that art is is rarely produced only as a mode of self expression you know one wants an audience one wants the reaction one produces art for for people but that isn't necessarily our definition of creativity and that's partly because our language isn't great even language it is sometimes is a problem yeah sure if we don't find them the meaning the significance of the world it is important I don't know yeah I mean creating I think does imply creating something out of nothing and it implies something that came out of my genius my unique mind all all old cultures and civilizations actually they survived because most of them I think that they had they had the idea of continuity today we don't we don't care about that we don't want to continue something we want to destroy what happened before and build something completely new which is just ourselves we don't care about continuity and I think that would be a big big problem for our Western world so on the one hand you emphasized very much the the very unique and particular character of each artist and she or he brings themselves their experience their losses their joys their loves into their art so so the the personal subject that is the artist is important except I mean I'm unavoidable no but it doesn't end there and it doesn't it's not ultimately about that right I perhaps I mean the genius of an artist is that they can translate their own experiences and and say something that can resonate with the losses and loves and joys and sorrows of of the one who views or listens or part takes of the art the real artist must be able to see in himself and around him what is important for the whole humankind yes otherwise it's something completely individual that it's of no importance for anyone else our our passions life and death love and loss and these are common things for all of us so let's talk about that there is no reason to talk about you know my vacation in how I who cares about that you know nobody cares you know there is nothing important over there so we have we have examples from the past we are not just the first people on earth there were incredible civilizations in the past so we have good examples we can stand on on this ground and build a new art that will be art that will be organic organic part of life let's let's imagine that there will be no music today no movies and no painting etc the world will will continue living in a beautiful way there is no problem because these things are not organic part of life art today is not organic part of life it's just entertainment just an accessory that was not in the past art was part of real life today is not well don't you find that there can be movies and and and popular music that that can affect us very very deeply and speaks to our losses and loves and yes definitely I didn't say that everything individualistic and useless no definitely thank you we have things in our contemporary you know culture that are really good good things and artists also not everybody's like that not everything is like that but I would say that the general thing okay the general image that's an incredible tendency exactly these are exemptions okay unfortunately most of you have been here all week and in the presence of of Georgian painting your own stuff are there questions that you have either arising from this conversation or just things that you've wanted to ask George or me for that matter we have some time and we have a mic and we have Serge I ask a question please do my dear we were a striker or a defender in song what do you think a striker no that was the friend but but the follow to that is that there are different personalities that fit into different roles in in the game and are there certain personality traits or types that are that fall into the iconographer or artists that so maybe I don't know I was in Zagorsk somebody the woman running by a pornography school there so they were always looking for a certain kind of people and there was a measured humor I don't know if there was a they had they had a formula like I see your I don't have I don't have a formula and definitely my students are and my career is defenders everything and it's nice let's see if I can get to my question in straight line but you mentioned that at the beginning of your experience with icons your mentor taught you through poetry or like stories in the help you understand a lot more but eventually you went to study the art in the academic setting so I think that resonated with me I was wondering as part in iconographers what place does the study I mean there's a way of doing theology that is participating in the liturgy reading scripture praying that that's theology but I wonder in the academic setting how crucial you think that into what extent if any the study of theology helps or maybe not since you what struck me was the fact that you said that you started with the more less structure let's say more narratives the way of approaching iconography if the academic setting would be more beneficial or not into what degree does understand yeah I would say that someone who wants to be a icon writer writer and must know you know the basic Christian faith so must study theology somehow you know reading books or attending classes or whatever not necessarily to be a scholar that's a different thing or having a degree but definitely you must know you know basic things of your faith otherwise that would be very very difficult you have to know history of course have to know scriptures and somehow patristics and liturgics or something like that so many important information you have to know that but above all I'll tell you what my my teacher but there's Simion told me for the very very very beginning maybe the first class I had with him he told me that if you want to be on I have iconographer you have to love Christ and the saints love Christ and the saints not just no information and whatever okay all these are useful things but basically it is a matter of love if you don't love Christ you don't love saints you don't love the church life you can be an icon painter you can produce icons but how is possible to go beyond that and a render you know the spirit the ethos of the church I don't think that that's very easy I don't know I'm gonna see you again so I was in your class last year I don't have the ability to participate this year even though I'm on campus I have four small children and my husband the seminarian so I had a question because you're a very prolific painter and iconographer I've had to undergo many long stretches of not painting and I just wanted to ask you about whether you've ever had times where you couldn't make or you couldn't do much and what one of those were important or what relationship those periods had to the times when you were creating and then I'm not sure that and there's the where there times where you in your life were for a period of time you couldn't paint and what was the effect of that fast as it were or that silence as it were I guess what I was asking is there's obvious importance for an artist to make work is there any importance to not make work sometimes yes it is it is important and it's very useful sometimes yes and I do that from time to time I don't paint anything I just think dream that's useful days weeks months months sometimes yes so right why not it helps it's like a biking if you know to bike you never forget swimming it's the same thing so don't worry about that do you feel like you come back for I mean in a way I feel like what you might be asking too is like do you come back not only okay I'm riding my bike again but like wow I didn't I'm experiencing the pedals in a new way or yes yes since I have done this many times my life I I found that when you come back you're more mature you're more mature because maybe you don't practice but you you are working in your mind in your heart you know so you are producing something that it's not visible but it exists so when you take back your pencils and your brushes you will be surprised you'll see that you would be more mature yeah I've experienced that anything that comes to your mind like wow I wish I'd thought to say this about creativity or about inspiration or about my past is there something that you want to kind of a no you're done okay that's great that's great George thank you so much oh yeah no no I was the funder I was the funder yeah yeah I was the funder and later the bass players of soccer yeah awesome I have both legs which is really useful so I was really useful player and now no not anymore yeah I have my some back problems now my knee and then I have to be very very careful plus I'm not really young anymore George thank you for taking this time and for opening yourself to us making yourself vulnerable to us and and giving us some of your your your past so so dear thank to me and I think to all of us and we gain so much and thank you all for being here and listening and and loving it all thank you George thank you you this podcast and the Institute of Sacred Arts at St. Vladimir's Seminary are supported entirely through large and small gifts which means it's supported by listeners like you please drop us a line consider how you can help us out and thank you to those of you who have supported us find out more about today's guest at instituteofsacredarts.com/luminous leave us a comment while you're there. Luminous was recorded at Surge Audio Online thank you Surge I'm Peter Bhutanif thanks for joining us