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Speaker 3Lone Star Casino is a free-to-play social casino. For more details and download the app, visit LoneStarCasino.com. Hunter, a little bit of a different
Speaker 4kind of question to start our episode off today. Okay. But I think it's going to be a fun one. Why do you think Greenland is called Greenland when it's almost anything but green?
Speaker 5Here's my guess. All right. It's the same reason why some housing subdivision is going to be called Pheasant Run or something like that. That it's a marketing ploy to get people to move there.
Speaker 4That is largely what people think. So apparently, have you heard of this person, Eric the Red?
Speaker 5I've heard of Eric the Red.
Speaker 4Eric the Red, a very famous Viking. So Eric the Red apparently was exiled from Iceland, which was a colony at the time, a Viking colony at the time. And he had sailed to the West in search of someplace else. And he ended up stumbling upon Greenland, as we know. Today. And spent a few years sort of exploring it and decided he wanted to create a settlement there. And so he went back to Iceland. And in order to recruit and help convince people in Iceland to come back with him and create a settlement there, he opted to name this new land Greenland when it probably wasn't as green as maybe it actually was.
Speaker 5As a place named Greenland might be.
Speaker 4Yeah. Now that said, I think, and we're going to talk a little bit about this as well. But Greenland is not, it's not all ice. There are, you know, you can find greenery there. Yeah. Not a lot. It's not the Pacific Northwest or the Amazon for sure. But it's not, you know, it's not.
Speaker 5It's not devoid of green.
Speaker 4Exactly. So, but that is the, that's the common theory today is that it was, it was a bit of a marketing, Viking marketing ploy. There were, there were some other sort of, I guess, myths at this point we can sort of call them where people had assumed, that maybe Iceland was called Iceland and Greenland was called Greenland in order to intentionally dissuade people from sort of checking out the colonies in Iceland and maybe invading or some such thing like that. That has, from what I could find, largely been debunked.
Speaker 5Right. That sounds like a stretch.
Speaker 4Yeah. But the marketing one seems to be the more common.
Speaker 5I mean, real estate has been operating this way for a long time, right?
Speaker 4Right. I mean, you, you know, a neighborhood's called Pleasant Valley and that doesn't mean it's actually a pleasant valley.
Speaker 5Right, right, exactly.
Speaker 4All right, well. Or a valley at all or. Or a valley, yeah. Or a valley, yeah.
Speaker 3More pleasant, yeah.
Speaker 4Yeah. So, obviously, listener, today we're going to be talking a lot about Greenland. You probably knew that because you clicked on this episode. It should be a really fun one. We're talking about Greenland largely because it's, well, it's a fascinating place of the world, both geographically, which we're going to talk about, but also geopolitically. I think everybody, you know, that's probably listening to this probably knows that Greenland has just an enormous amount of land. An incredible amount of ice that sits on top of it. A very common feature. I would say, Hunter, have you, have you flown to Europe? Oh, of course you have. We know from past episodes you lived in Barcelona.
Speaker 5Yes, I did. And I lived in Belgium for a year. But I've not been to Greenland specifically.
Speaker 4But your, your plane probably flew pretty close to it or over it.
Speaker 5It's very possible.
Speaker 4Yeah. And so if you're lucky, listener, and you happen to be doing this at some time during the daytime and you happen to be sitting next to a window seat. Where you can look over, you know, look out the window and look over to Greenland. It is a pretty striking topography of just nothing but ice. And it's, it's not just flat. It's very topographically pronounced in a lot of different ways. It's just very striking, is what I would say.
Speaker 5There's a permanent ice sheet that covers not all, but a pretty good size of the country, of the island, I should say.
Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. We're going to talk about both of those things. Yeah. As it turns out. And of course, you know, as we're talking about this ice sheet, you know, we're also undergoing climate change. And so there is going to be ramifications for Greenland as some of that ice begins to melt. And that's going to have ramifications for the rest of us, particularly if you're a coastal community of some sort. And so again, we're going to talk about that a little bit. But also geopolitically, Greenland is very interesting. And you mentioned country as a very key word there.
Speaker 5Right. That was a huge slip for a political geographer to make. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to edit that out later.
Speaker 4But, well, you know, I would say, you know, it's, it's not its own country, but it's also, it's an interesting, we're going to talk about this because it's interesting. It's not, it's not a, it's not a wholly owned colony of sorts either, or territory either. It, it, it does happen to fall into this weird sort of, well, we're going to talk. We'll get to it.
Speaker 5It's an autonomous area.
Speaker 4That is correct. Yes. And so, you know, eventually we're going to sort of build to this, you know, maybe try and not answer this question, but at least discuss this question, which is, you know, can a potential country of very few people effectively manage a territory that's about four times the size of the U.S. state of Texas? And so, because it's interesting, right? That's not, that's not something that's ever happened. That's not something that's ever really happened before in sort of the modern age. And obviously we don't know about the past, but, so we're going to talk about all of that. But first, before we do that, let's talk a little bit about the island itself geographically. Let's sort of just sit, situate ourselves because I think it's probably more varied than perhaps what many people expect. Now we'd already, yeah, we'd already talked about this Hunter. Actually, let me, let me ask you this. Well, you know, I don't know if I want to start with, I'll just go ahead and say, Greenland is the largest island in the world that would not be considered a continent. Okay. And so if, if we were to, this is kind of where the conversation breaks down a little bit because what is and isn't a continent is almost superfluous, right? It doesn't. Right.
Speaker 5Because Europe and Asia are attached, for example.
Speaker 4Exactly. Europe and Asia are attached. So, you know, is that a continent? And then there's the endless question of, well, is Australia a continent or is, or is it not a continent? And is it part of just a bigger region that's called Oceania? All this kind of stuff. And so this is kind of where like the, the geography of it all kind of gets a little, I don't know, wonky. A little murky. A little murky. Yeah. But that's all that's to say is Greenland would be considered the largest island in the world. That's not considered a continent. Otherwise it would be Australia or I guess Eurasia. If you want to really get big. That's a big island. Yeah. All told, Greenland is about 836,000 square miles in size. Now, quick sidebar here. This is not perhaps as, Greenland is perhaps not as big as what some people might expect. Hunter, I'm going to ask you this.
Speaker 5I'm going to ask you this. Hunter, what am I talking about here? Right. So what I think you're talking about is that one of the standard map projections that people see a lot depicts Greenland as being enormous.
Speaker 4Gigantic. Enormous. Enormous.
Speaker 5Enormous. And this projection that we're talking about is, I mean, there are various projections that do this, but the one that famously does this is the Mercator projection.
Speaker 4Yeah. I would say it's probably the most famous map that people associate with most closely.
Speaker 5And the map is from the mid 1500s. So it's not a new map, but it's still used. In fact, I think Mercator would be confused as to why, why are you using this map? Can you come up with anything else? The reason it was created is because it's a really good map for navigating ships, right? There's two points on the map. And you have to lie with maps if you're representing a globe in two dimensions. It's like inevitable. And one of the things you can do is you can preserve land area or you can preserve shape, for example. And so the shapes that you see in a Mercator projection, those are pretty similar to the shapes that you would see on a globe. Right. It greatly exaggerates the land area at the poles. And so Greenland's pretty close to the North Pole. And so it becomes enormous. It looks bigger than Africa when in fact it's a lot smaller than Africa.
Speaker 4Yeah. No, it's true. It's, I was looking at one just before we started recording today and, and, and a Mercator projection and, you know, listener pull it up, break out your Atlas. I'm sure there's one in there somewhere. Right. And it looks, it does. It almost looks to be about the same size as South America. Right. It's about the same size as North America or Africa. And the reality is that the island is actually a little bit smaller than the single African country of Algeria, which is 919,000 square miles in size. Now, Algeria is a really large country. It's actually, I would say surprisingly large, you know, if you overlaid on top of the United States, it would take up a good chunk of the United contiguous United States, but it's still just one country. That's just in sort of the Northern part. part of Africa. And so it's far smaller than I think. Are you familiar with the website,
Speaker 5The True Size Of?
Speaker 4Oh, I am 100% familiar with it. I love that website.
Speaker 5It's a rhetorical question, I guess, for somebody like you. But that's something listeners could go check out because it allows you to drag, let's say, Russia or Canada or Greenland or anywhere in the world and drag it towards the equator to try to understand how big it is in relation to other places that are closer to the equator.
Speaker 4Yeah. And so the website is truesizeof.com, listeners. So you can go and check it out right now. And I'm looking at it right now, and it uses the Mercator projection, obviously. And as I'm looking at it, yes, Greenland looks almost, I would say it's about the exact same size as Africa. But then you can drag it down. It just rapidly shrinks to a very tiny size. So fun. This
Speaker 5could be a good future episode for us.
Speaker 4Yeah, absolutely. So we've talked about this quite a bit. And I think we're getting to that point where we're going to do an episode on map projections. That sounds right. It'll be an interesting one because it's going to show
Speaker 5examples. Yeah. We're
Speaker 4going to have to figure out some way of being able to talk about it. About these things when we can't actually guide the listener through a visual of some sort. But maybe we can figure that out. Regardless, it's about time we talk about map projections and how
Speaker 5maps lie. I think so, too.
Speaker 4So stay tuned for that sometime coming in 2024. We've already talked about this a little bit. Despite its name, Greenland is not, in fact, very green. And I think most people listening are probably well aware of this. But that's not to say the entire country is a giant ice slab. So if we break it out, about 80% of Greenland is ice. It's glaciated. Oh, so that's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. Right. That's that's still but not all. But not all. Right. So in reality, you know, about 20% of the land or 167,000 square miles of Greenland is not ice. Now, let's go back and use our Connecticut form of measure.
Speaker 5Oh, yeah. All right.
Speaker 4This would be about 33 Connecticut's of land that's not covered in ice or a single California. And so therefore, you know, that's still quite a bit of land, right? California, for example, is home to nearly 40 million people and they still have plenty of land.
Speaker 5So the icy part is well over
Speaker 4100 Connecticut's. The icy part is well over 100 Connecticut's. Yes. Now, of course, you know, we're talking about this land that's not covered in ice that potentially could be habitable. We're going to talk a little about that. It's worth pointing out this. This is not all connected land. In fact, the majority of Greenland's non-ice land, not Iceland, is located in the south and western parts of Greenland. And most of that land is either small, you know, tiny little islands or fjord indented coastlines, which is pretty rugged and pretty hard to navigate. Right. I mean, epic, very epic. But it's very difficult overall.
Speaker 5Not super conducive to having large populations. Those particular fjordy areas.
Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. In fact, well, I mean, we're already starting to talk about it. So, you know, as Hunter, do you know how many people live in Greenland?
Speaker 5It's kind of a small amount, like under 100,000 or something.
Speaker 4Yeah, it's well under 100,000. So as of 2022, I don't know, I imagine it's changed greatly since then. There were almost 57,000 people living on Greenland.
Speaker 5Wow. No. That's not, that's some people, but that's not a huge number.
Speaker 4Yeah. And this isn't 57,000 people in one city. There's a lot of villages. It's sort of, you know, scattershot throughout sort of that, mostly that western and southern area. So it's not, it's not no people. I mean, obviously, there will be people and we'll talk a little bit about maybe some of the cities that are there in a little bit, but this would make Greenland specifically the least densely populated region in the entire world, aside from, you know, maybe some disparate locations of, you know, the Sahara Desert or something like that. But in terms of a sort of geopolitically defined region, this would be the least.
Speaker 5Including all the icy parts.
Speaker 4This would include the icy parts. The icy parts. Yeah. So if we weren't thinking about the icy, so if we weren't thinking about the icy parts, we just took that other smaller, it would still be one of the least densely. I don't know how that would, that would actually stack up. But at present, including all of Greenland, there is only, there's less than 0.1 person per square mile. Wow. And so you could have more than 10 people. Oh, it's, this gets into a level of math that I'm no longer comfortable explaining, but it's just, just, you know, just know that if you're there, it, there's not a lot of people around and, you know, if you get too far away from a population center, you're going to be very much isolated. You're on your own.
Speaker 5Yeah. So now that
Speaker 4we've sort of tackled sort of, you know, Greenland, the basics, we sort of have an idea of what, what it is, who's there, all that kind of stuff. Let's talk a little about the history of Iceland because, well, I think it's older than most people maybe expect.
Speaker 5The, the, the, uh, legacy of people living there, you mean is?
Speaker 4Yeah. Well, so we talked about, you know, on our invasive species episode, Hunter, we talked about New Zealand, um, and remind us when, when did they sort of, uh, have, have they estimated people arrived in, in Iceland? I think it was like the year 1000 or 1200 or something like that.
Speaker 5Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah, it was something, something like a thousand years ago or something not super long ago.
Speaker 4So, and I guess, I guess, regardless, the point being is that New Zealand is a very remote part of the world. Um, but it, uh, it is otherwise pretty habitable overall. I don't know what it was like, you know, a thousand years ago, but I'm going to assume it hasn't changed too much. Greenland is kind of the exact opposite in a lot of ways. It's not something that would overtly suggest that it's very habitable. However, historians have been able to trace a population, a culture back to around the year, uh, 2500 BCE. Now, and this would, more specifically be, uh, the area within, um, it's called Disco Bay today. Okay. And so somebody can look that up if they want to know where, where exactly. Um, and so, uh, these people would have migrated from what is now considered to be the Northern Canadian territories of Nunavut, Northwest Territories and Yukon. Um, these are paleo Eskimo peoples, um, or, or, or paleo Inuit peoples, what, however you want to call them. Um, and to put this time in perspective, during 2500 BCE, there was no Roman empire yet. There wasn't even a Babylonian empire, which predates the Roman empire. In fact, during this time, this is when the great pyramids of Giza were being built. Wow. Okay. This is a long time ago. This is, this goes way back. Yeah. Uh, I, I was, I was pretty shocked. I would have assumed that people came to Greenland far, far later. Um, so all this is to say Greenland's Inuit history is very long. Um, the paleo Eskimo or paleo Inuit people would be, uh, sort of supplanted or, or evolved into what would be called the Sakak culture. Um, and that would be followed by the Dorset culture around 800 BCE. And that would eventually, uh, convert into the Thule culture around 1000 CE common era. Uh, and all of these cultures that we're talking about right now are the ancestors of what would be today called the Greenlandic Inuit culture. Okay. And so these are primarily the people who live there today. And we'll talk a little bit more about that later. Um, now Hunter, as with everywhere on the planet, uh, Greenland would be eventually colonized by Europeans, but do you know who.
Speaker 5Not everywhere, but a lot of the planet.
Speaker 4A lot of places, but yeah, you're right. Not everywhere, but a lot of places on the planet. Um, and so we already kind of talked about this, but, um, you know, when we talked about sort of the history of the name, but it would actually be, uh, uh, or Greenland's first European visitor would actually be Norwegian and, and Icelandic Viking specifically named Eric the red around the year 982. And so this is, this is actually puts Greenland on a little bit of a different colonial path because this was well before the sort of age of colonialism for Europe.
Speaker 5Yeah. Um,
Speaker 4and Inuit were already
Speaker 5living there still at that time.
Speaker 4Inuit were still there. Yeah. Um, Inuit were still there. The Vikings, um, are rumored to have, and maybe there's some historical evidence. I didn't dig into it for this episode, but I know that they are rumored to have maybe been the first European presence in, uh, the Americas, uh, by way of maybe Newfoundland area of Canada today. Um, all that's to say is they were sort of the first European influence. Um, we talked about this when we talked about sort of the naming, but Eric the red would, uh, establish, uh, Norse colonies on the island in somewhere around the year 986. Uh, this would be settlements that are largely called the Eastern and Western settlements. I've also heard, um, the variation that includes a third one called the middle settlements. Um, unfortunately for these early Viking efforts, however these settlements would eventually disappear um there's not really a doesn't seem to be a conclusive you know reason for why they disappeared there's theories that include climatic changes this would have been around the same time that uh what we call the little ice age started so um oh this this would be in the 1400s i should say um and so or or or maybe it's you know economic isolation or maybe there's conflicts with the inuit who knows um that said these these like settlements lasted a few hundred years which i think is pretty impressive um so after the norse departure or disappearance the inuit would once again be the sole inhabitants of uh greenland for at least a couple hundred more years okay and so you know now we're starting to get into the age of you know exploring and you know quote unquote discovery um by europeans um of course also known as the age
Speaker 5of imperialism exactly
Speaker 4you can't you can't really discover something that's already has people that's
Speaker 5right that's that's not a thing but
Speaker 4far be it from me to to tell the europeans that the europeans of 1600 i said i should say uh so uh the kingdom of denmark norway which is one kingdom would go ahead and reassert its claim in 1605 to the entire island of of greenland uh sparking a sort of new european interest that was largely focused on whaling and uh and sort of the fur trade okay and so the danish colonial presence was established and this colonial presence would last until the 1900s uh as a direct colony okay hold on to that thought right because greenland and denmark are still very much tied to each other today
Speaker 5right but there's there's a nuance here coming
Speaker 4up there's there's a nuance here definitely and so um so today greenland is is part of the kingdom of denmark which is actually a little different from the country of denmark
Speaker 5because the faroe islands are also part of that kingdom oh
Speaker 4we're going to talk about the faroe islands we are oh sorry i
Speaker 5hope i didn't that would spoil no no no you
Speaker 4didn't spoil anything i i mean we'll talk a little bit about the faroe island it's not not gonna be a big part of today's story but they're they're wrapped up into this whole whole thing so we're gonna talk all about that but before we do we have to run we have to do a quick ad break okay so we will be right back we're coming back
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Speaker 1and we're back we're talking about geography is greenland
Speaker 4we're talking about the largest non-continental island in the the world sort of went through the history went through sort of the basic sort of i don't know stats figures what have you about the island itself uh now let's talk a little bit about greenland's current place in the world because this is where things get a little differenty uh than i think maybe many people would assume and so when we left we sort of left with a teaser about talking about the kingdom of denmark sort of how greenland situates itself within that sort of governmental entity and so the way that people have interpreted this even up to you know maybe some some former presidents of the united states is that greenland is part of denmark and it's sort of a wholly owned sort of piece of land part of denmark and that's not actually quite the case it's it it's a little complicated and you're gonna have to bear with me because i wasn't able to find anything that quite matches the same system that greenland has with denmark as well as faro islands and you know all that kind of stuff so this is all gonna seem a little arbitrary but it's all gonna make a lot more sense when we talk about eventually why the united states tried to buy green greenland and denmark the country informed then president trump that it wasn't theirs to sell that was a very famous quote at the time and everybody was like what do you mean it's not yours to sell it's it's clearly part of the the kingdom of denmark and so that's kind of where all this sort of breaks down so the kingdom of denmark which is also known as the danish realm is it is more is more i would argue has more in common with a commonwealth of autonomous countries united under a monarch than it does to um maybe a traditional colony country relationship or even something like um the the commonwealth of nations which is probably the most famous you know commonwealth which is the former british colonies that still have some sort of i guess the the british monarch is still their head of state i think that would be the closest um but this danish realm would compose the country of denmark uh greenland and then the faroe islands and the faroe islands listener if you don't have your alice out it's um a series of islands that's you know quite a bit north of scotland sort of sits inside that north north atlantic ocean um but the kingdom of denmark is not a federation uh similar to you know something that's called the realm of new zealand um and so there's just some there's some there's some differences here and how everything gets managed that make comparing this system to basically anything else kind of hard and not really accurate um and so really the way i i was best able to understand it it's really more of a concept encompassing you know three autonomous legal systems they're all sort of bound together and so uh um according to some sources the kingdom of denmark is a unitary sovereign state it has arctic territorial claims in the arctic ocean various sites near the north pole uh constitutionally the kingdom of denmark encompasses this realm uh but the faroe islands and greenland have extended degree of autonomy to govern their their own own relations their own needs what have you and so in reality the country of denmark and its governmental body doesn't actually have a government body that has that much authority over greenland or the faroe islands and so this is sort of where all the questions started to arise when the denmark was like it's not ours to sell we don't have the authority to sell it because they don't have the authority to sell it um so i hope people have been able to sort of hang with me through that because i don't really have any more
Speaker 5explanation i can get right i mean there's autonomous like oregon and california and whatever state has autonomy to do certain things they can have certain taxes that other states don't have but there's also things they can't do because the federal government controls that and it seems like this is a bit of a different arrangement where greenland has more autonomy than most other autonomous sort of bodies on the planet yeah and
Speaker 4we'll probably talk a little bit more about you know sort of the powers they have um you know they have their own parliament for example this would be maybe maybe a similar um example would be scotland that's situated within the united kingdom now scotland is bound in ways to sort of the greater united kingdom however it also has a lot of devolved powers um has its own scottish scottish parliament that kind of thing um it also might be more similar to maybe the isle of man and its relationship with the united kingdom and great britain where it's the isle of man which read or listener if you're not not familiar with it's a small little island sort of tucked in between ireland and and great britain there and they have a formalized relationship with the united kingdom however they are not directly a part of it there's there's a number of different nuances so it probably falls somewhere in between the sort of the scotland and isle of man sort of relationship yeah it's wonky it's very wonky um so so now that we've sort of established you know greenland's place in the world how they situate with inside the the kingdom of denmark and danish realm whatever you want to call it let's go ahead and jump to um sort of the big question the reason why i kind of wanted to talk about greenland in today's episode and that is why the united states might have wanted to buy that big old island hunter do you have an
Speaker 5idea oh well i'm guessing it might be more than one reason although maybe that's not the case i would say there's
Speaker 4probably more than one reason yeah
Speaker 5i'm guessing there might be some energy resources there um probably there's some strategic reasons from a you know military political standpoint i know the u.s has bases there is that right okay we're gonna talk about those yeah okay all right good so a little foreshadowing um so i guess it maybe it's a combination of those things that's what i would that's my initial thought. Yeah.
Speaker 4And I think I would say those are probably both correct. We're going to talk more about maybe some of the more specific reasons related to the 2019 case. I would say generally. Anytime a country is able to have more land these days, they kind of jump at that opportunity. That's the other thing, right?
Speaker 5Right. Territory is just people want countries, not people, people who run countries want territory.
Speaker 4Yeah. Well, and like, you know, especially if you're you're an island, for example, that comes with a significant amount of economic areas inside the ocean that is yours to exploit. That's what the ocean, what is it called? The exclusive economic.
Speaker 5Yeah. So there's territorial waters and then 200 miles off of the exclusive economic zone so that you have the rights that country would have the rights to oil resources, fisheries and this kind of thing.
Speaker 4And for an island as big as Greenland, that's becomes a lot and becomes a lot of water. And so we're going to talk a little bit about that. But first, let's talk a little about maybe the history of of the United States trying to buy Greenland, because while we're going to talk about a lot about the 2019 potential purchase that President Trump tried to do, this is not actually the that wasn't the first time the United States had tried to buy Greenland. It's happened quite a few times.
Speaker 5Interesting. OK, well, apparently
Speaker 4it's been in the sights of the United States. Since at least let's say I have here at least 1867. And so that was the first attempted purchase
Speaker 5of Greenland by the United States
Speaker 4as far as I could find. So in 1867, United States Secretary of State William Seward negotiated the Alaska purchase from the Russian Empire. And at the same time, he also considered the idea of the United States annexing of both Greenland and Iceland, an idea that is, quote, worthy of serious consideration. And so, listener, if you if you think back to sort of the massive land that that U.S. purchased when it got from Russia in the form of Alaska and sort of the boon that it sort of gave in terms of natural resources, certainly in the latter half of that century, you can sort of understand why a similar purchase of Greenland or I guess annexing of Greenland and Iceland would also be tempting. For the United States, especially during this expansionist period.
Speaker 5Wasn't this called Seward's Folly, though? Was that a thing? Have you heard of it?
Speaker 4Seward's Folly. Yeah. So I think that so I mean, Alaska was wasn't didn't didn't bear a lot of value for a long time.
Speaker 5Right. Initially, people are thinking, what are you doing here? Why are you doing this? And then it turns out that natural resources are pretty plentiful.
Speaker 4Yeah. So this was this was something that he considered nothing formal ever happened. Now, obviously. Annexing. I would say in the 1800s, annexing Iceland certainly probably would have been very provocative to to a lot of the European powers who were still the dominant powers of the world at that time. So that might have gotten the United States into some hot water. Let's fast forward a little bit. A proposal for acquisition of Greenland was further discussed within the American government in 1910 by the then United States ambassador to Denmark. So apparently, in this deal, the United States, and this was, you know, in direct trade trade talks with Denmark, the United States would trade Mindanao, which is an island that is today part of the Philippines, or Greenland and the Danish West Indies, which is in the Caribbean. Okay, so they were they were thinking that Mindanao, which is, you know, closer to Asian markets was closer to maybe more value, a valuable area was sort of a worthy trade to then to get Greenland and a little bit of Caribbean islands as well. Now, if you recall, during this time, the US had sovereignty over the Philippines,
Speaker 5right from the very end of the 1800s, right?
Speaker 4Yeah, they had Yeah, then during this, they acquired it from the Spanish, after winning the Spanish American War. That's correct. That didn't really go anywhere. Again. And so let's jump ahead again, this time, we're gonna jump to 1946. And this is when the United States made an offer of $100 million, or $1 billion today, in gold bullion for Greenland to Denmark, like here have our gold, we want this big icy island. Apparently, United States Senator Owen Brewster said in November 1945, that he considered buying the island a military necessity. Why might it be a military necessity at that time?
Speaker 5Well, this is the era, this is the beginning of the Cold War, right?
Speaker 4Yes, exactly. Right.
Speaker 5And so the idea is, well, we can be closer to Europe, and we can, we have more ability to defend slash strike on the European continent.
Speaker 4Exactly. And I think, you know, we were talking a lot about the Mercator map before, particularly in relation to country size. But one of the things that I think flat maps really helps us forget is, is the aspect that flying from point A to point B is not always an east west, you know, occasion, right? Right, right. And so if you're able to, you know, own land, or what have you have a military base in some place like Greenland, or Alaska, or, you know, if you're Russia inside their northern Arctic territories, your closest distance is gonna be flying over the North Pole, which is offers a very strategic advantage, you're not flying over the North Pole, you're not flying over the North Pole, you're not flying over a lot of different things, you don't have to, you know, ask for permission from a lot of different countries to fly over, you can sort of have direct access in a way. And so that was that was seen in 1946, especially at the sort of the dawn of the Cold War, on a cold land, as very enticing. And so they really wanted to purchase Greenland for this, for that, it's almost that exclusive purpose. Strategic reason. Yeah, strategic reason. Reason. Yeah. So the planning is strategy, strategy committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff determined in April 1946, that acquiring the quote, completely worthless to Denmark Island was vital to the United States. Which I love that quote. And this is this was definitely for Soviet era, Soviet Union era reasons. Apparently, Denmark did eventually grant the United States permission to station a military force and base on the island, which is why the United States refused to leave the island when when Denmark requested basically saying we're not going to do it. This is too too valuable for us.
Speaker 5We're already here.
Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. And that this was during, I think the the World War Two era years that they allowed them to have a military base there. And sort of shortly after that, they sort of refused to leave. And this is partly why Denmark is part of NATO today. So this was kind of a reason, well, the United States isn't going to leave our territory. Anyways, we might as well join this alliance that they've created. So that everything's working within sort of some sort of governmental bureaucratic body. It's a very weird story unto itself that I'm not really doing justice. But it's very interesting. And so that brings us up to 2019. There were had there wasn't any, you know, attempts to buy it between 1946 and 2019. So in 2019, the Trump administration became interested in acquiring Greenland, once again, the United States. Anyways, apparently, Senator Tom, Tom Cotton, I don't know if he's still a senator today, proposed the idea in 2018 to Danish Ambassador Lars Gert Loss. And this was what kicked off the initial interest by by Trump's cabinet. And so and at the same time, the Australian geologist, Greg Barnes discussed Greenland's rare earths at a White House committee meeting in 2019, as well. And so rare earths, rare earth metals is something that has become increasingly sought after. Okay, because it's a material that goes into things like soup, semiconductors, and I believe also batteries. And so these are very important objects to power a lot of the things that we increasingly depend on today. And so the US, the Trump administration believes that they could subsidize Greenland more effectively than than Denmark, there are some subsidies going on between Denmark and Greenland. However, there wasn't a strong desire by anybody to actually see this go through. So there were strong rejections. Yeah, right. You want to do what? So there were strong rejections from both Greenlandic and Danish officials, including the premier Kim Kilson. And the the, it's, this is sort of when we get the sort of the head scratching response where Denmark or Danish officials were like, it's not ours to sell. And Greenland officials also being like, it's not theirs to sell, you have to ask us and we don't want to be not for sale.
Speaker 5And yeah. And meanwhile,
Speaker 4the the Trump administration at the time is just not understanding what's, what's actually happening, like what, like why they can't just buy it, at least to a a very like, I don't know how describe it it's like it's such a surreal surreal moment in geopolitical history where the united states is simply just not grasping why this isn't
Speaker 5possible this is not the first and only example of
Speaker 4this certainly unfortunately not now coming out of this um the uh the prime minister of of denmark did uh allow for an increased u.s military presence um within greenland as part of a deal with nato and so it's all sort of gets built into that that environment but it it did facilitate those conversations but there was also diplomatic fallout and so immediately you know as denmark basically said no or we can't and greenland said no and trump wasn't listening um almost immediately after that trump canceled a state visit to denmark uh the danish government uh was forced to come out and reaffirm their support for u.s policies including their policies in the arctic um and so there was just a bit of fallout as you know maybe a little bit of a tantrum by the u.s government wasn't able to get what they wanted um and of course there were strategic and political considerations to for the u.s to be able to buy greenland especially in 2019 right so trump's offer was seen as a strategic message to china and russia regarding american influence in greenland or u.s influence in greenland and more broadly the arctic um and specifically as greenland being a u.s influenced zone now of course during this time 2019 today as well they're starting to be more of a presence of international interest within the region because ice is melting and when ice is melting that means there's more ways to ship things through there there's more things to discover underneath the ice all that kind of stuff and so it's just becoming more of a of an interest globally but one interesting that sort of spun out of all this in 2019 was this idea of greenland's full independence and so prior to this has always been sort of a nascent movement but this sort of brought to light a global sort of audience now was paying attention to greenland that um that greenlandic peoples wanted to be fully independent not just autonomous not just uh whatever wonky system they have with denmark they actually wanted to you know be their own country and so this just kind of surfaced a lot of these things that were kind of not maybe not being talked about more broadly um but has now picked up a lot more steam today and so um we're going to talk a lot more about the independence movement and sort of an independent greenland um but first we gotta we gotta hit our last ad
Speaker 5break oh time for an ad break
Speaker 4time for an ad break so let's do it ready to level up
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Speaker 4geography as greenland uh really large icy island in the northern hemisphere we just finished talking a little bit about sort of the why the u.s bots wanted to buy not bought wanted to buy greenland and sort of everything that sort of came out of that and that sort of led us to talking about greenland as potentially an independent country hunter why why might in your opinion greenland want to be an independent country well
Speaker 5i think why would anybody
Speaker 4want to be an independent country you have to speak for the greenlanders
Speaker 5right yeah i can't speak specifically for the greenlanders but i think that independence movements are people who want to be able to determine their own affairs so if they're being ruled by as a colony or by a power they consider to be a colonial power you know they can't make maybe make certain decisions that relate to their preferred politics or economics or culture or social things and so the idea you know with with the modern state system is that in order to be able to determine their own affairs they have to be able to determine their own affairs they have to be able to determine their own affairs and in order to have you know the full expression of a group of people that consider themselves a nation they need to have independence so they can do that i mean
Speaker 4exactly right i mean broadly i think that's why anybody would want independence specifically for greenland um there's there also happens to be a a strong sense of national identity of being a greenlander and this doesn't just translate to sort of their place this actually kind of translates to sort of who they are as a people right because i think you know at this point in time greenland has been under some form or has had some sort of involvement with either the danish uh specifically denmark kingdom of denmark whatever you want to call it or vikings you know nordic cultures xyz but through it all there's also been this inuit culture right and you would have been there since 2500 bc or at least paleo inuits and in fact as of 2018 nearly 90 percent of greenland's population was inuit danish made up the second largest at only about eight percent of the population so to me it's not that surprising when you start to think oh these these are indigenous inuit people who live here they don't feel all that connected with what would be europeans um over you know in europe um and so it's probably not that that's probably not that surprising that they don't feel all that
Speaker 5danish yeah they they have a legacy of having lived in this place for a long time they're people and they want to do things in the way that their people does things and don't want to necessarily be told what that is by a different power on the continent of europe or
Speaker 4anywhere else right in fact i i mean i i'm not i don't want to speak for them but i wouldn't be surprised if they felt they had more in common with the inuit of of the northern canadian territories um just by nature of proximity in fact we talked a little bit about this already but the majority of of greenland settlements and cities including its capital knuck is on the west or southwest coast and that's entirely positioned towards basically north america and canada rather than on the east which would be positioned towards uh europe and iceland now obviously if you look at a map of greenland you look at the places where there's ice there's not a whole lot of places on the east coast where you could actually have a settlement right so let's talk a little bit about sort of the uh independence movement sort of where it's coming from um the current greenland independence movement is not exactly new um but it's just become newer as we talked about before the break just because of everything that sort of happened in 2019 it feels like it's resurfaced a little bit um however weirdly the the greenland's independence would probably first come from something that seems like the exact opposite so in 1953 a new danish constitution full of the greenland independence movement was created in which the island was fully incorporated greenland into denmark this was before the autonomous commonwealth everything that is today is sort of wholly assumed it into um into the denmark the country and in doing this the island gained representation in the danish parliament and was recognized as a danish province known as the county of greenland that's a huge county right
Speaker 5that's that's one of the bigger counties out
Speaker 4there uh but this gave this is what gave greenlanders a formal voice which they then used to advocate for themselves within denmark the country proper so they didn't have that before and so even though it kind of seems opposite to independence right they were sort of holiest uh you know consumed by by denmark this is sort of what eventually would pave the way for them to be able to actually break away more more in more ways and so in 1979 you know just a couple decades later uh greenland first gained some form of home rule from denmark which is obviously a very significant step towards self-governance and this led to the establishment of the greenlandic parliament and a self-governing administration um fast forward again to 2009 greenland expanded its autonomy with the self-government act and this is what formally gave greenland control over things like law enforcement the judicial system uh natural resources um that were obviously within greenland um and it also recognized greenlandic language as the primary language as opposed to danish and i i think this is where we start to see in my in my experience and sort of opinion the language is usually one of the core defining features of a maybe a separation between two different peoples and the one i'm thinking about is you
Speaker 5know catalonia classic example yeah classic quebec even you know right that's another one i think about but that this is a this can often be a core value for a group of people and language can be a vehicle for exploring independence movements.
Speaker 4Yeah, there was even, and I don't have the article in front of me. I was reading an article sort of about this just from earlier this year. There's a prominent Greenlandic politician who is a representative within like the Denmark, whatever, you know, something like that. And this person only speaks the Greenlandic language when they present their proposal in front of other politicians. So there has to be a translator. And that's obviously done very purposefully as a way of, you know, showcasing their identity. This is who we are.
Speaker 5And also demonstrating a particular view of the world, right? Because the language is also a view of the world and vocabulary, it's not just different words for the same thing, but there's different concepts or different ideas that might exist in one language. That don't exist in others. And so using one's own language is important for many reasons, including that.
Speaker 4Absolutely. And so today there's an increasing and majority desire among Greenlanders for independence. A poll in 2016 showed that there was a clear majority, 64% for full independence among the Greenlandic people. A 2019 poll showed that that number had increased to 67.8% of Greenlanders supporting independence from Denmark. Sometime within the next two decades. Now, polls are not necessarily indicative of actual votes, but these are some strong polls.
Speaker 5It points that there's some evidence here that there's a lot of people who might want a different political arrangement, different territorial arrangement.
Speaker 4Yeah, and it's interesting too, because we talked, there's about 57,000 people within Greenland. About 18,000 of those people are within the capital city of Nook. And polls typically have a sample size of somewhere around 600 to 1,000 people. I don't know exactly what this poll was sampling. Maybe it was a little bit lower, given that the overall population size was much lower. Still, I imagine that they were able to get a higher turnout just by that nature, a higher percentage of turnout than you would say for a poll that's conducted about the United States or Germany or something like that, where you're having to, you're getting 1,000 people's responses that have to represent 300 million people or 80%. Or 86 million people. All that's to say is I think that there's a very strong desire for this amongst Greenlanders. And so, that said, people do seem to differ on how and when an independence should occur. These range from gradual transitions to immediate independence. And so, they haven't quite figured out that. And of course, there's a growing international interest in what an independent Greenland might look like. Now, we talked, a little bit about sort of maybe a similar sort of idea when we're talking about the Amazon rainforest. Not about independence, but about other countries now having a vested interest in another country's affairs. And at that time, I think you had said a sort of smacks of neocolonialism. Right, right. And that's definitely something that's starting to feel here. Because it's interesting, right? It's like, all of a sudden, you're starting to see countries like Russia and the United States have opinions on Greenlandic independence.
Speaker 5Well, and certainly places like Russia, for example, that is fighting independence movements within its own country doesn't want to see this as a precedent necessarily either.
Speaker 4But in actuality, Russia is for Greenland independence. Is that right? That is right.
Speaker 5Because they're not for independence for Kosovo.
Speaker 4No, they're definitely not. No, but so this is where things start to get interesting because Greenland as being within the Commonwealth of Denmark or sorry, the Danish realm, the Kingdom of Denmark is part of NATO. So North Atlantic Treaty Organization, something that Russia is staunchly opposed to. If Greenland becomes independent, it doesn't necessarily automatically join NATO. In fact, I think, politicians in Greenland have already suggested that they don't want to be part of NATO. And so that becomes a different sort of geopolitical angle, right? So I think your assumption that Russia wouldn't want it would totally bear weight were it not for this.
Speaker 5Right. Well, so it sort of illustrates that politics is really case dependent. Right. And there's not necessarily one size that fits all. And if it benefits a particular government, and the other thing is that, you know, that Greenland wouldn't be part of the European Union anymore because they are part of the European Union through Denmark now. And so this would sort of make their sphere of influence from Europe be more distant, more tangential. And that opens up possibilities for other countries to come in and negotiate various situations.
Speaker 4Yeah, there's a million different scenarios that could happen. But my guess, just looking at the islands where the, you know, colony or not colonies, the settlements, or cities are located within Greenland, I would guess that Greenland would grow much closer with Canada. It's just oriented so much more towards Canada. And just knowing the connections that they probably likely have more in common with the Inuit cultures of Northern Canada, there might be more of that going around. All that's to say there's a million different scenarios. But, you know, and there's some other things that the international community is sort of concerned with. You know, global warming is opening up new shipping routes that didn't previously exist. Right. And so being able to access those right now, they're sort of under the purview of NATO and Denmark, who still control sort of the economic zones around there. There's also as ice melts, there's potential for natural resources. And so, you know, we've talked a lot about the Greenland side of this, but like what, let's talk a little bit about what Denmark thinks about this, because again, they don't, as we think about sort of the system that we went through, they don't have direct say necessarily over a lot of what Greenland does or wants. It's kind of, they're a little bit pulled apart at this point. So, you know, Denmark definitely might have opinions about this, right? So now I would argue typically countries historically have been reluctant to give up any land.
Speaker 5This is, this is the case, I think. Yeah, this is a sign of weakness for a politician.
Speaker 4Yeah, but Denmark actually doesn't seem to be all that worried about it. In fact, from what I could find overall, of course, this isn't speaking for everybody in Denmark, certainly not all the politicians in Denmark, but overall, it appears that Denmark largely supports Greenland's right to self-determination. Okay. The financial ties between Denmark and Greenland remain very strong. In fact, a lot of Greenland's money, economically, you know, sort of gain comes directly from, by the way, of grants from Denmark. But there are ongoing negotiations and discussions regarding the extent and pace of Greenland's move towards full independence. So I think bottom line, it's from what I could read based on recent reports, it's not, it doesn't, it seems like it's something that will happen eventually. It's more a matter of how and when. It's not, it's not a matter of if or Denmark trying to stop it or fight it. Yeah. Which is very different from what I think a lot of countries and how they react to independence.
Speaker 5This is, this is a good point, right? Yeah. This is Spain. This is not the common reaction.
Speaker 4Yeah. Again. I mean, I'm sure there's politicians in Denmark who are staunchly opposed to this.
Speaker 5100%. But, but the current administration, the current administration,
Speaker 4I guess, the general feel that I could gather, um, based on, based on my research, you know, articles, you know, a lot of articles have been written about it. It just, it seems to be more of, um, you know, let's, let's make sure this is done right. Right. Um, and I guess I can see that angle, you know, if Greenland is sort of determined to become independent, you want to make sure that you're still on good, as good a terms as with them as possible. So that's, you can still have a, a, a bountiful relationship and maybe still, you know, have some sort of access to Greenland or maybe exert some sort of influence over them. I don't know. I don't know what the, what the, that appears to be the case. Um, now that said, there will be some major challenges for Greenland as an independent country. For one, Greenland's economy is heavily reliant on fishing and grants from Denmark. And so those grants would probably go away if they were independent.
Speaker 5So that's where the influence from other countries maybe comes in,
Speaker 4right? Exactly. Right. And so, uh, if they're not able to do that, right, the, there's some other options that they have increasingly available to them. and potential exploitation of natural resources, including rare earth elements, as a path to economic independence. But this kind of comes with a host of other issues. One being protecting yourself from countries with militaries, for example. Greenland doesn't really have a military, and it's 56,000 people.
Speaker 5And Denmark's military is the protectorate, I suppose, of Greenland.
Speaker 4Right. Well, NATO is. NATO is the protectorate. And NATO, right.
Speaker 5Yeah. Because for NATO, an attack on one is attack on all.
Speaker 4Right. Exactly. And so, you know, if Greenland was independent and, you know, Russia decided, you know, hey, we're going to go mine, you know, create a mine here and we're just going to start extracting minerals. You know, how much would Greenland by itself really be able to say, no, you can't do that? They would have to turn to and ask for help, probably from, you know, Denmark or Europe or, you know, United States or Canada. All that's to say is protecting itself from something like that happened would be certainly a challenge. Right. So I think generally, you know, as we talk about independence and sort of when it'll happen, it will happen. There's a lot of questions that Greenland needs to ask of itself, of sort of people in the process of how it's going to going to happen. They did say something to the effect. And I have that. I have it here inside my notes. So. Apparently, in July 2021, just a couple of years ago, Greenland banned all new oil and gas exploration in its territory. Wow. With government officials stating that the environmental price of oil extraction is too high. And so that was an interesting quote that I'm very curious as to how staunchly they'll hold that up when sort of push comes to shove. Because right now they. Sort of have this luxury of being able to say that because they get a lot of money from Denmark. There are only 56,000 people to get a lot of money from Denmark. They don't necessarily need to make money by themselves necessarily. So. It's an interesting. Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see, you know, how that might play out. So as we close out today's episode, I figured it might just be interesting to talk maybe a little bit about sort of what Greenland will look like in the future. Huh. Not just geopolitically, but but geographically. And so why might it be changing, Hunter, geographically?
Speaker 5You mean because it's going to actually become more green as the ice melts?
Speaker 4Yeah, exactly. So so we know climate change is happening now. 2023, in case you weren't aware, listener, was far and away the warmest year on record. But this has also been something that's just been trending for a while. Right. We can see that years are generally getting warmer and warmer. And Greenland specifically. Is feeling those effects faster and more heavily than other areas. Both polar regions are. And so the I think the this 2023 was the first year that on average we crossed over the 1.5 degrees Celsius marker on average. But if you go up to places in the polar regions, Alaska, Arctic, Antarctic regions, what have you, that's actually quite a bit more than 1.5. So. Now, of course, it's still cold up there. I'm not saying it's warm. Don't. Rush up there with your bathing suit.
Speaker 5Right. Well, I mean, that's when we're talking about climate, a small change in temperature can have huge impacts environmentally.
Speaker 4Yeah. So apparently in August 2021, rain fell on the summit of Greenland's ice cap for the first time in recorded history. Rain. Not not ice, not snow. Rain. That's probably scary. That's a scary. Yeah. And it's. And. And climate scientists have have attributed that to the effects of climate change. And so this will inevitably lead to ice melting faster and not replenishing. In fact, it's theorized accelerating melting of Greenland's ice sheet is contributing significantly to global sea level rise. And it's theorized that if all of Greenland's ice were to melt, the sea would rise by about 25 feet. Well, yeah, I know. So, I mean, if at 25 feet, you can base. You know, you're you're basically thinking all of South Florida, Miami, everybody like that's all gone. A lot of the eastern seaboard of the United States, in fact, is also underwater at that point. I think generally coastal communities around the world are that that's going to impact basically every coastal city.
Speaker 5Right. This scenario, all the ice in Greenland melting.
Speaker 4Yeah. Right. I mean, I don't know how how likely that is. I don't really. To be honest, I don't really want to entertain the idea. But just like. The idea. And of course, if all the ice in Greenland were to melt, then I mean, I'm not. It's not like the Antarctic ice is just hanging out and just being cool. Right. There'd be a lot of other places. Yeah. So it would be, you know, there'd be more effects. But all that's to say, I think it is fun that they were able to math that out and say, OK, here's the there's actually a really fun map. It's there's a I don't have it in my notes. Darn it. Maybe I'll put it inside the show notes. But there's a website where you can. Go in and play around with the amount of ice melting for either the North Pole or Greenland or Antarctic ice or both. And so, you know, I'm going to I want I want to see what 10 10 feet of sea level rise would be. And you can see all the communities around the world that are now below the water. It's very interesting. Very cool. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think that's I think that's about it. I think that's all I have to say about Greenland today. That's that's a lot. That's a lot to say. It's a lot.
Speaker 5There's always more we can say.
Speaker 4Right. You know, it's it's been really fun. I this. So this episode is like a pair with with my YouTube episode, which is also directly about Greenland. I think this is probably the strongest pairing we've had ever or maybe in a long time. But it's just it's it was really fun to sort of dive deep into a region, maybe soon to be country that has people living there. But it has its own culture, but it's otherwise very it's a very small amount of people. So it's just it's very interesting to even think about. There's fewer people in all of Greenland than there are in what would be considered a small suburb of Portland. Right. A Tualatin or something. OK, well, I guess with that, Hunter, do you want to run through your pluggables?
Speaker 5Thanks, Jeff. I'm Hunter Shobie. I'm a professor of geography at Portland State University. I am co-author of. Portland is a cultural atlas and upper left cities, a cultural atlas of San Francisco, Portland and Seattle and co-host of the Geography is Everything podcast.
Speaker 4Yeah. Thanks, Hunter. And my name is Jeff Gibson. I'm also co-host of this podcast. You're listening to right now. You can also find me on YouTube. That's YouTube dot com slash last time geography by Jeff. If you liked what you heard today, please rate, review, you know, whatever us on Apple podcast, Spotify, whatever app you might use. We really appreciate reading those. If you want more geography by us. Go on over to geography is everything dot sub stack dot com. You can find this podcast lives there. You can find articles, yada, yada, yada. I really love, you know, being over there and I really love seeing you guys over there, too. This this this is a twenty twenty three wrap for the geography is everything podcast. Our year is done after after this this episode. So next week, which will be twenty twenty four, we're actually doing something a little bit different. I'm going to. We're not recording a new episode. Instead, I'm remixing an old episode of ours, the Cascadia earthquake episode. OK. And sort of maybe. So that was back in our what if geography days and remix into a little bit more of a geography is everything sort of style. But I guess, you know, basically we we need it. We need a week off.
Speaker 5We could take a small break to recharge for twenty twenty four with a whole new slate of episodes. But yeah, it makes sense to go. To the vault, I think, for a week.
Speaker 4Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then the week after that, we will be doing. Oh, I think it's I think we're going to do solar energy. Yes. So we're going to have an episode on solar energy should be a fun one. Our energy episodes are always really popular. Our nuclear energy one, our hydroelectric dams or just dams one, but factors in hydroelectric dams and our wind energy. All really fun episodes. So, yeah, go check those out. And then I'll give you an idea of sort of what we're going to be talking about.
Speaker 5Yeah. Yeah. Looking forward to that.
Speaker 4Yeah. And I guess so with with that, we'll we'll catch you next time.
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