Gentleman's Clubs: From Coffee Houses to Corridors of Power

You have this sense of exclusivity, power. You are a member of the club. I've decided I want to be a member of a club. What do I do? Well, you need to find another member of the club who likes you. Oh, go on. Which is your challenge. We tend to think of them as being very old-fashioned and quite phogeo-ish, but they were racing. So the best one who's going to get gout first show that these people are leading barely deck and level. I believe there's a lot of gout at Brooks. Right. There's a lot of gout at Brooks. Which is, there are places which are now allowed for a more casual. OK, by casual, we're talking your casual. Are you taking a time? We're not talking. We're not talking flip flops. Hello and welcome to the luxury dispatch. The podcast that reveals the refined and the rare, the stories, people and items that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain. And today we're going to be talking about a subject of intrigue, a subject of mystery. I'm here with Jordy Willis, eighth generation family member of Barry Brothers and Rudd and Peter Howarth, a seasoned veteran journalist, you're a friend and a great editor, having edited Esquire Arena. Thank you. And you now currently run Shay Media. That's true. And we are here today, gentlemen, to talk about clubs. Or are. Now, I will try and encapsulate this inner diary entry. And this is from the diary of Tommy Lassel. So if any of you seen the crown, you remember he was the Kings and then Queen's Privatisecratri. And so close eight. So he writes on the 9th of October 1940. When I was in Prats on Monday, there was a crackle in the street, like little boys letting off fireworks on Guy Forkstay, which proved to be the arrival of a bouquet of incendiary bombs. I just sat down to a very good soft road herring. So I stayed where I was. But E. Demonshire, who is the proprietor of Prats, attended by his son Bill and Howard McMillan, dashed up into the St James's Street and spent an enjoyable quarter of an hour pushing them out. Now song for our and Gallows humor aside about the blitz. I think that's a perfect encapsulation of these clubs and their place in history, but also the type of people who went there. And these are, of course, the clubs of St James's. So on Paul Maus and James's Street, the old gentleman's clubs, those stoic, sentinel buildings that many people walk by, but don't really know much about. They only know them as potential corridors of power. And there's a great reputation of these places that separate them from what we know as the private members club of today, often single sex, but very much part of the St James set up. And when I talk about these sentinel buildings, what I really mean from a naming point of view is whites, Brooks, reform, Athenaeum, United, Carlton, Boodles, Prats, RAC, sort of. We'll come to the RAC. It's an really introverted part of this whole debate we're going to have about the idea of luxury, exclusivity, membership, etc. I didn't mention it because I got kicked out the other day for not wearing a shirt and tie. So we'll come onto that. We'll come onto that. I mean, I always get you out of today for not wearing a shirt and tie. But nevertheless, so these are the clothes we're talking about. And what I love about these places, they all have their own, a little bit like army regiments. They have their sort of histories. They have their traditions. They have their own particular reasons why somebody will or will not want to join. Yeah. And of course, what separates them from ever else is, well, firstly, they're largely men only, one or two exceptions. And they have a historic reason for being which the modern mixed sex members clubs do not have. The origin of the modern mixed sex members club really comes to the most of the first world war, when women were slightly more confident in society because they were driving the buses during the first war and making the munitions. And they wanted to, you know, they were under sunning to be sent back to the home. And so there was a need for, and a desire for them to be part of the London Nightlife. But these places, these quiet, even sometimes, sort of, imposing yes, but also dull looking frontages of these buildings, very old, fashionable George, and, you know, but when you can't really see him through the windows and usually a support trait of somebody or gust, but anonymous, these are those places. So we're talking about the most traditional. Yes, the earliest. Yep, broadly starting in the late 17th and 18th century. Yep, men only, London based, but also the precursor for private members clubs around the world. Exactly. Basically the ones that you would be elunatic if you wanted to start up today. So, Jordy, why don't you kick us off about clubs? Because obviously they had a genesis, and you know all about it. They did. Well, the reason I know a little bit about it is that where I work, very brothers and brothers, is at the bottom of St James's Street in London, we're about five minutes away from Buckingham Palace to center it in there. And we have been there since 1698. Have you been there since 1698? I've been there for almost 1698. It's portrait's up. Is it going to be one of those episodes? Yeah, it is. It is. So the joy of St James's Street in Paramal is that it's actually a relatively small part of London that changed dramatically at the end of the 17th century. So what happened, and this was the genesis of the private members club, that we think of today as the Palme Islands and James's Street clubs, is there was the second great fire of London. So in England, we often learn about 1666 and the great fire of London. The damage of that fire was still apparent, but we're a little bit later on, and in 1698, there was the great fire of Whitehall. And Whitehall was the royal residence, and it burnt to the ground at the beginning of January 1698. And the court moved to St James's Palace at the bottom of St James's Street. So St James's Palace had been around since the 12th century. It had been taken on by Henry VIII. There's a love nest for Ambelline. It started life as a hospital for leperous maidens. There were 14 leperous maidens. Didn't he buy it off the provost of Eaton? Yeah, exactly right. Eaton would have owned huge amounts and tracks of land. So it became. It still do. It became the royal palace. And what that did is it completely changed the shape of London. So if you think of London as being the city, broadly, suddenly this movement of the court from Whitehall to where it is today at the Robinson James's Street is suddenly the West End became the most fashionable part. Now this was already happening. It's like Donald Trump moving from Washington to Palm Beach. Tomorrow I'll go. It's a fraction of the distance. It is. It's funny to think of a two-minute walk becoming this huge paradigm shift in the way that London functioned and where everyone settled themselves. Well, the West End. The whole thing of the West End today is being the centre of London. We don't really question the fact that the term itself West End suggests that it's not in the centre. It was the West. But it was the Wild West. It was the sort of the pleasure district of London. But where you have smart people and smart houses you also have things that fill in the gaps. So between, that was a very. No, I'm sorry. No, I was just thinking about. What gap do you fill in New York smart houses? Do you know what I was thinking about? Sorry, but this is my brain. I was thinking about Burlington Arcade. And there are certain laws within Burlington Arcade. And one is that you are not allowed. Well, no one's allowed to whistle, apart from support McCartney, apparently. That's good. Right. And you're not allowed to clock. Yep. And the reason is that in Burlington Arcade, on the second first clause above, is where all the prostitutes hung out. And when people walked through, that's how they were to track people's attention. Well, you are in exactly the right place, as it were. Because what St. James' was known for was these grand houses. And then between these houses, was where these grand people behaved rather badly a lot of time. Yeah. So you have brothels, you have gambling dens, and you have not in the Starbucks tradition, but you have coffee houses and chocolate houses. So a lot of the private members' clubs that we'll talk about today, emerged at the end of the 17th century as coffee houses. Yes. So that's a sort of genesis, but broad these are things that were exotics that had come in from around the empire. And they were gathering spots, these spaces, not particularly grand in the early days. But they were gathering places for people to meet and talk and debate. And they were great centres of power on that basis. But crucially, with the coffee, the chocolate, the power of the stuff, they were back rooms. And in these back rooms, they wanted to do things that were illegal and elicit things like gambling. And so that is where, somewhere like whites, you were talking about chocolate shops, was became sort of famous because in the back, they set up what was referred to as a private members club. This is maybe how we can unpack what we mean by club. Because club, as we think of today's club, together. The etymology of the word club in the context that we're talking about today was about being clubable or more importantly, unclubbable. The idea that if you were unclubbable, you were the sort of person who ultimately wouldn't pay their bills. So there was this idea that a group of people with similar interests could come together in a space and it's important to say these places all had club houses. So their property was intrinsically tied to this. Yes. And through a shared interest and from clubbing together their resources, they would have a nicer place to be, they would be drinking nicer wine and in theory drinking nicer food will come onto other, that's still the case. Yes. And that idea of almost eating nice food. Eating, eating, eating, eating nice food. But the swill back in the day, the soup, soup of the day, you could drink that. But I could tell you, and Wellington was made of points about you should always own the freehold. Right. And that was the idea, isn't it? If you're going to start a club, own the building and the members own the building. So an early co-op. Yeah. Well, that idea of being rather a social enterprise is quite different to what people think about them today. Very much so. Whereas these were, yes, there was an element of aristocratic there certainly, but it was a sort of proto-socialism, which is a phrase that comes out one of the great books. We'll put a link in the show notes to some of the great books on the subject as well. But that idea of people coming together for entertainment that was mostly illegal is the starting point. And the legality is interesting because it gives them the free song, something which I think is largely lost today because now we tend to think of them as being quite very old fashioned and quite fogey-ish. But they were racy. And Jonathan Swift famously said that whites was the bane of half of English nobility. They really had a reputation for being slightly off-color places. But the law also said that if it's called a private member's club, it made it very difficult for the police to raid it. Exactly. So they were able to get up to all the stuff without any danger of being caught. But the back room, ultimately the facade of the coffee house was where a lot of magazine titles today come from. Tatler, for example, was short for Titletatel. Yes. Was short for gossip. And that was the idea of this gossip coming out of the coffee houses. Even the section at the. Does Tatler say it exists? It does. So the section at the back, the section at the back of Tatler was called bystander, which was exactly the same, the person standing and listening to this news. And the same with the spectator. Spectator was the bystander, the person who was going in to listen to news and report it back to the wider audience. But all of these private members' clubs, I think, started as coffee and chocolate as well. Yes. And then quite quickly, when lots of aristocrats and the UK were spending a lot of time here, they. had nice places to go home to. So when they weren't going to be home, they had high demands of the premises they were going to. So they were behind turning these buildings into something quite special. So we talk about illicit behaviour. Of course, one of the most famous artworks out of the UK is Hogarth's Eraked Progress. Yes. And of course, his gambling and hauring and things. That's what you know, sent him spiraling into Manusberg, guess where it all started? On St James' Street. It all started as a club. And so, you know, it was the first plate, isn't it? Yes, exactly. And it was. It was just a well-documented caricature of what these places are putting up. There is a sort of an indulgence, a decadence, illusionist that you can do what you wouldn't be doing at home. You'd be going to your back room in the coffee shop to do the stuff that you couldn't do at home. So what would you be doing in the back room of the coffee shop? Well, gambling is the major thing. Gambling is massive. And remained enormous. We see there's wonderful bets in the books of a lot of these clubs that have a record of what people got out to. So there's one that's like, I bet that Lord Chumney will get gout before the other. They get, you know, so the bets on who's going to get gout first show that these people are leading fairly decadent life. Because gout is a big issue. There's a lot of gout which is the wigs. There's a very wiggish. There was wigory. Political affiliations. Or define which would determine which club you joined. It would in time. It would be a big part of a huge part of it. And I think it would also create the myth that these were corridors of power. Right. Okay. So yeah, a lot of betting. A lot of betting on how quickly a raindrop would fall down the window and so on. But gambling may be a huge, huge vice in the UK. But these places. And it was illegal. Yes. Yeah. And these places allow a little bit legitimized it. And that, whoa, I'm not just allowed you to be able to do the bet. Three six five of the yeah. The pavvy power. Well, you could ladbrook. Yeah. But at a very high level. And then of course, as, as you know, juxtapists and also them coming along with lots of money, they wanted nicer places. So they want to better food. They want to better wine. They want to better surroundings. But at that point, it was also trickier to get in. I you had to start looking at memberships in a way that the coffee houses didn't have memberships. The coffee houses had access. You would pay a penny and you would get in. But anyone could come in. Yeah. It was the entry was purely based on whether you had the cash. Yeah. Whereas as we start to see the the modern traditional private members club evolving and emerging, it becomes much more about setting precedent for what those membership rules might look like. Yes. And there was of course a sort of mania for clubs back then. You look, we've listed a whole bunch of these clubs. There's a there are a couple more. But they make up about 10% of the amount of clubs that were what was then back in the day. Okay. So they died since a lot a lot. But prior to that, what you had was politics that played a huge part in the way that people took up membership. So we mentioned whites conservative yeah, Brooks, which is Wigish. Yeah. Then of course, Boodles again, Wigish. Wigs were the pre liberals. Yes. And the Tories became the Conservative Party over time. I'm worth pointing out that Labour weren't unrepresented because straight out of the idea of clubs in the West End came working meant exactly in rural towns. Yeah. So this is about like-minded people gathering together. The political affiliations come in due course things like the reform act and so on. Yeah. Pushing people aside. But what started off as a political meeting houses over time become these political powerhouses? Is there a reform act in the reform club related? Yes. Yeah. Formed on the on the back of it, I believe. That's great. Yeah. Okay. I think you still have to be able to recite the reform act if you want to be a member of the reform club. It's that right. I think so. That's a good thing. There was a time when these clubs had a serious political purpose. And we great story about how Wellington had that banquets thrown for him in 1814, the year before the Battle of Waterloo because he'd beaten Napoleon in another battle. And they chose white's largely because opposite in Brooks Club through the windows were a bunch of very liberal aristocrats who supported Napoleon. So these clubs held views that were really stream. The idea that there was any land only in January that supported the French Emperor, it seems extraordinary. So these places did hold a lot of different opinions and powers and so forth. Important things happen. I mean, was it the Treaty of Paris? Yes. That apparently was signed by Lord Shelburne in the lands down, the round room cocktail barbed lands down, you know, basically handing over America in a private members gentleman's club. Yeah. Not in not in Parliament. I mean, these things that's quite. They were almost a proxy for Parliament. Right. They're a proxy Parliament and the palace because they were places where they would host foreign heads of state and so forth. And so forth. So you can link it because if you look at the first surviving whites, articles of associations, they suggest that you couldn't be voted in when Parliament was in sitting. Oh, really? Yeah. So they were absolutely linked. Yeah. But what we're talking about is this transition from the back rooms of the coffee houses to these August buildings institutions. Obviously, it's kind of predicated on a move towards exclusivity as you're saying, Jordy, you know, anyone going to the back of a coffee house, but not everyone can go into private members club and you have to be, I mean, you still have to be nominated and seconded and what whatever to get in, which of course, along with the political affiliations, means that's where you have this sense of exclusivity, power, influence, secret society, conspiracy theories, all this sort of stuff, because it's a bit like the Mason's. One of the things I'm really interested in is the psychology of that, the psychology of wanting to be a member of the club. I understand the psychology of wanting to go to the back room and a gamble and hang up, but the idea of like, because you know, Grapchow Marx famously said, you know, I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member. So that psychology of wanting to be, you know, we say that these clubs are largely male-only. Male psychology, is that a is that a is that a bro thing? So I think we've got a debunk a few things here, because firstly, there is no absolute proof that private members clubs weren't multi-sex in origin. Yeah, even if you look at the original rule books, they are not gender specific. Really? Yeah. No body, somebody, anybody, which was unusual at the time. Gender-neutral language. Gender-neutral language exactly. And you have the reality of the situation as well as that a lot of the people running these houses would have been women as well. So for example. And is it better Bianco? Yeah, so let's mention hers. We talked about whites earlier as the oldest recognized London club. That was started by not a grand duque or anything like that. It was started by someone called Francesco Bianco, who was Italian. Yes. And he anglicized his name to Francis White when he started up his coffee house. He died at the beginning of the 18th century and his wife Elizabeth took over. Yeah. So a lot of these clubs had a strong female leads. Barry Brothers was started by a woman called the Widow Born in 698 as well. So there were also female clubs as well. And some of them were really quite successful. There was a precursor to Boodle's called The Female Coetry, I think it was called. But there were also salons. So one of the reasons reading through some of these fantastic books that is suggested for the male-only club coming through was a pushback against the fact that the power had previously sat with women. And there were salons which were ticketed, you could buy a ticket to go in. But they were almost always run by a group of female patrons. And they held all the power in terms of who got in, who got out. So suddenly we get snobber peal coming in here as well. And there was a backlash against that. Those all died out in due course. These were the great deputant spaces and so on. And then the male-only elements of the club and whites was male only quite quickly. I think it was mid 18th century probably it became men-only. But I think we've got to be careful that we think that all of these were men-only from absolutely from the start. Yeah, I think that's right. It came in later. So there was a weird manace fear backlash. Yeah, hundreds of years ago. Yeah, I think that's probably not a bad way of describing it at the time. But these places became staunchly male. Right. A lot of them are no longer men-only and we can talk about that in due course. I mean, even Prats, you know, which is considered, you know, it's a very small club in terms of membership. It's only about 600 members. But it is considered one of the great sort of all fashion institutions is now mixed and taking on female members. And I think what's interesting though, you know, women membership aside is the fact that they had this powerful history. But that isn't really the case today. They provide a very different function. And it's interesting to see what that function is now because would you start a club like this in St. James's or Mayfair to say no, absolutely. Like it would be too difficult, too expensive and I don't know if you would have the take-up. So what is behind the psychology of membership? What is it that makes these particular clubs survive? And what are the challenges do you think they face in this world of, you know, mixed sex clubs across the road in Mayfair? Well, part of it is that these are the OG. So, so private members clubs are a thing. You know, I've just been in Milan and there's one that's opened up there called The Wild. Yeah, for the Milanese and you go there and it's, you know, it's a great space and they're having events. But it's a modern day private members club that set up as a business to get, you know, wealthy Italians to join and pay a large membership fee. So in a sense, we have the originals. And I've always found it interesting the way in which that kind of traditional romance of the members club has been expressed in culture, for example. So James Bond is a member of Blades, fictional club, you know, Sherlock Holmes' brother, Mike Ruff, is a member of the Diorginese club, you know, fictional again. But the idea that you're a true raster at drones. Exactly. That your club, you know, you mentioned earlier that, you know, are you clubable? Are you not clubable? That your club is, is in that, that's still, that still has a sort of echo. And after echo, even today, you know, James' private members club is not so-her-house. And I suppose the difference between the two of them in some respect is that we're still talking about identity and status. Yeah, yeah. There's a visible expression. Well, there's the idea that not anybody can join. I mean, yeah. I mean, okay, in reality, supposedly not anybody can join so-her-house. But there's an awful lot of so-her-houses and there's an awful lot of members. Exactly. Exactly. But that is still a, there is something about the exclusivity that is definitely part of the appeal. And there's something about the historical precedent that has an appeal to a certain kind of person. Yeah. And also the charm. I think that there's lots of, you know, these are places that are unlike anywhere else. Everywhere, the heavy clubs are open now. There are a couple that's, that hark back to something more of a fashion, something cosier, but these places have a particular architecture and a particular set of standards that and service that are utterly unique. What do you mean? Terrible. Well, it's a really good point. So interesting you say that because you're, in some extent, you're right. You know, when you open a private member's club today, part of the bragging rights is the chef that you've bought in the exact- Yeah. The sushi bar they've opened up. Or the recipe. Or the recipe. And the, and, you know, my, you know, the, the savouries at putting time. The food is not. If you took someone who recognized the modern club. Yes. Into one of these traditional clubs. Yes. You wouldn't be bold away by the, no, the food. The service is, is fantastic, but of a type. Yeah. The, there's often extraordinary art. Traditional. Yeah. And original. And original. And, you know, you go to somewhere like the Garrett club where they, yeah, a lot of their, their funding comes from the estate of A.M.L. So Winnie the Pooh put all the pictures on the wall, but it's wonderful pictures in there. Yeah. But you are not there for all of those things. And those are all the things that modern clubs are sold on. It's the gym. It's the underground cinema. It's the, you know, the restaurant top stairs. It's the, the community. So that people must be buying into something. And importantly, these things, these clubs aren't necessarily hugely expensive. I mean, some of them are expensive, you know, a couple of thousand pounds a year. So certainly not cheap. But, you know, there are a lot of very smart gyms that would be more expensive. So what is that? And I think you're on to something. And I think you're right, actually. I think, I think it's an identity thing. I think it's, I think it's purely a sort of, it's breaking, it's breaking rights. It's breaking rights. Yeah. But it's quite breaking rights. It's quite breaking rights. It's a lot of sensations. Well, if you know, you know, I mean, if you say, well, you know, I'll meet you at my club and it is AscentChames as Private Members Club, you are not doing the same thing as saying. Which then speaks to the type of members that there are because a lot of people who would sort of want to brag about being a member of whites would not be allowed to be a member of whites. That's not a type of. So let's maybe talk about the selection process. Yeah. How do you get in? What do I do? Oh God. Well, okay. Well, let's assume these people, these rarities exist. If Peter wanted to become a member of the club easy. If I did, if I did, if I did, it was easy. Much more easy. Yeah, easier. So if, if, okay. So I, if I propose a, and if I'm, you need a proposal, who's a member. Yeah. And from reading, I believe that is a licensing law. Okay. That's, by law, there's part of the licensing for clubs. So you have to, if you, to, to bring in new members in, it has to be proposed by a current member. Yeah. Then most of them, if not all of them, you need a seconder. Yeah. So a second member who do it, then at that point things get opened up to the membership and that is where it potentially starts to get ugly because members want to have opinions. But it's very, but it's very democratic. It's very democratic. But you have to be the right type. You are assessed. You have to, well, how you assess. That's the thing. Do you have an interview? That's the difficult part of it. It's why people wait years and years for membership is because you have a process by which you get put on a board, notice board, announce it on a piece of paper, and either people know your name and know your good sort or not. It's very, very difficult. The way you could do it is perhaps going with a friend and meeting people while you're there to make to make yourself known. You have to be quite social confident for that kind of thing. Tom, do you think that are these clubs desperate to find new members? Well, that's the question. Yes, how, yeah, are they actively trying not to? Yeah. What kind of businesses are they? Are they businesses at all? It's a really good question because I think that the committee is everything. Okay. And so if the committee votes on how things go, and if the committee is full of people who, for example, were prats, you know, for thinking wanted to, you know, want women to be members, they made women members. But there would be other clubs that just say no. And, you know, it's a club that's owned by the members and therefore, and most of these clubs are owned by the members, not all of them, but most of them are owned by the members. Yes. And most of them are not paying significant rent on property because they've owned them for so long. Yes. So they are broadly non-profits. How has it put the other day? It's either non-profit because it's trying to make a profit and couldn't, or it's a non-profit because it's owned by the members and therefore it could be cost. It gets put back in. But if I become a new member, I don't get equity in the club, do I? You get subsidized bits and bobs. So I think the feed is probably a bit cheaper in the pub. So you're going to have a benefit rather than the drinks. The drinks aren't as expensive as the carbon stuff. And so there is, yeah. But here's an interesting thing to put out. Oric, you mentioned at the beginning, the Oric, as a building, it's fabulous. Look, it's huge and it's wonderful and grand. But people don't have to dress up there. People can dress down. People can be too much. Not that much, Tom. As I said, I went in there. I was wearing a admittedly, probably a motorcycle jacket. But I did not have a shirt and tie on. And I was asked to leave. And I went for a meeting with a member. OK, well that's very interesting because I've, I mean, maybe it was at the weekend when I went to people allowed to us at a Gilles and trainers, but they were Gilles and trainers around. But there are places which are now allowed for a more casual-- OK. The casual-- By casual, we're talking your casual. Are you taking a tie off? We're not talking-- we're not talking flip flops. I think you're a judge. I think we've got to be aware of where we're going to start. We're still talking jacket. Taylor jacket. Yeah. OK, let's get. OK. We're not talking tracksuit. We're not. But they-- OK, so when we're looking at this then, in terms of what makes a club good-- Yeah. Why would someone want to be a part of one today? What is to be a boarded issue? I guess that's the point. And so do you do it? I think what point is is that would one ever be, if they're keen on the old-fashioned thing, happy to put that aside for the sake of the RAC swimming pool and squash courts? Well. Because the thing is that from a minute's point of view, the RAC is just streaks ahead of everybody else. And so-- Support Smith swims at the RAC swimming pool every morning at about 7 o'clock. Do you hear that people? Go in the port, so it falls to-- And actually swimming pool is-- It's swimming pool. It's beautiful. Who wears your land get in? Yeah. It's a good question. What's he wearing? I bet it's swimming now. Good to hear he likes. Yeah, but no. But actually the RAC is unusual because it does have that extraordinary-- But the RAC is also not to sound a sign of snobby, but it is a more mass market version of the club. Mass-bemperium club is club. So if we're saying, therefore, that it's not necessarily the amenities, or that it might be in some cases, then surely the next thing must be about community belonging, a sense of being surrounded by like-minded people. Yes. I think we can't get away from how hard it can be to get into clubs and therefore that sense of achievement from being that. So it does long-waiting this store. A tough admissions process equal a good club. Right. I don't know. I think most of those clubs tend to be nice places to be for people who are looking for that kind of thing. And we've got to remember the reason there is a long waiting list on some of these clubs is capacity. They're not going to-- whites isn't going to open another club up the road because the membership require them to tie. They're quite literally waiting for people to die to let people in. True. I mean, maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit there, but probably not far off. True. I mean, you do. When you walk down St. James's Street, and I encourage people to do it, look through the windows of whites and bricks and burials. Because what you'll usually see as a man, usually over 80, sitting in one of the big arches reading a newspaper. So should we be getting rid of all of them then? Well, that's the big question. Do they play a function? Are they necessary? Well, they are at the very least harmless. I would argue that to a large extent, but I would also argue a bit-- I would go a bit further. I would say that for a person like me, I guess, who has a sort of Vaughan Williams way of looking at Britain, establishments like this are quite important. I think this is that world that's charming slightly head in the clouds world where we don't necessarily judge things by how much money you make, or how big your car is, or-- It's not flash. It's not flash. There are lots of places for flash. But these are not that. In fact, flash is quite frowned upon. And from a membership point of view, if you are somebody who's bragging about your membership, or if you're somebody who comes across as being desperate to become a member, you're quite unlikely to become a member. And I suppose that then needs us on to the question of are we talking in any sense about luxury? How do we unpack luxury in this scenario? That's a really good question. They're not necessarily luxurious in the way that some of these private members clubs are popping up in New York, or Five Harp for Street or Annabelle's, which are probably luxury experiences. There are rooms there. But if they were a five star-- if they were called a five star turn, you shut up to stay in them, you know. Yes. They do go anywhere near what you'd expect from there. So it's a really good question. Is luxury exclusivity? I mean, that's really all that offers. No, I think, well, a big question. But in a sense, luxury is a kind of best in class experience. And if your best-- if your class is a kind of historic, St. James's members club experience, they are best in class of that kind of experience. Yeah, fine. So that's fine. If what I want is what did you call them, the savory puddings? Yeah. And I want to sit in the wing back armchair, and I want to read a copy of The London Times and whatever. Or the Wall Street Journal, Marvelous Newspaper. Marvelous Newspaper, thank you very much. If I want to do that in that environment-- That is like a bad luxury joke. That is the best kind of place to do it. And that is a form of luxury. If we are talking about what can make these clubs great and fascinating and historic and interesting in part of our cultural heritage, there is equally a side that says they are potentially right with snobbery. They are exclusive, but not in a positive sense, because they are door shut exclusive. They are places where old-fashioned ideas circulate in echo chambers, and the world doesn't move on, or the world moves on outside. So there is always the danger. It's all a very wiggish of you. Well, I'm-- I knew you had Brooks Mehl. I'm interested in the fact that wherever there is something historical and wonderful, and working for a very old business myself, there is a tendency to look backwards at the past and unfortunately bump into the future. I suppose the question is, can these clubs remain interesting and relevant for future generations? Or are they managing the decline? What do you think, Peter? Well, I think there's a paradox here, because I think one of the appeals of this type of club is that it doesn't keep up with the times. So what you might determine as being a reason for somewhere to be in decline-- i.e. the food's not great. The decor's a bit tired. It doesn't change. The facilities aren't brilliant. The rooms are a bit rubbish. Whatever. Actually, those are all the reasons why people want to be there. It's a sort of-- it's an anachronistic piece of heritage. Having said that, I was taken to lunch-- the club shall remain nameless-- but I was taken to lunch at one of these clubs by somebody. Did you get in? Well, I was warned, so I did wear a shirt and tie this time. And I was actually horrified by the experience, because I walked into a place that was full of-- I am no longer a spring chicken, but I walked into a place that was full of extremely old white men sitting there eating very average food. I felt that I'd been catapulted back. decades, if not centuries, into a Britain that was not modern contemporary forward, looking multicultural, blah, blah, all of those kinds of things. - Yeah, that makes a big mark on all of that. - It sounds marvelous. - I mean, I like all the things. - I jealous all of it. - You listen to him. You live in South London. Stop pretending. So, no, so all the things that I love about this country, which is its tolerance and its creativity and all of those seem to suddenly be kind of sucked into this vacuum of this weird, I felt like I was in a BBC TV drama. - I think if what's only on offer is the kind of private members, because you have today, like the Sohouses and the Maisons, all those sorts of things, that's it. For me, there's not much that I want of it. And I would lament a lost world of extraordinary sophistication taste and elegance that is very much a part of the DNA of what makes British and British a part of, as you say, 'Brand Britain', it is James Bond, it is PG Woodhouse, it is Sherlock Holmes, and it is, it's, you could just imagine Tolkien writing Lord the Rings from these places. You can imagine Byron getting over his trips to Europe at these clubs with the King's Ginger, of course, or a cavalry officer coming home from Afghanistan and wanted to go there for a Bucks Fizz. There are these cultural touch points that just like the Royal Navy or Shakespeare and stuff, we don't realise that they're part of our kind of cultural canon, but they really are. And so to just to sort of, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, they're a very easy target, because they'll never bite back, because they're just as you say, they are old guys, you sit and like to have a sandwich in the plate of crisps, and I'm, and read the newspaper, and they may rant about things that make people uncomfortable. But they, but it is a, it is the charm of the place that I think is worth preserving. And I think what we're saying is well, what you're saying, Tom, is that they don't need to be for everyone. I mean, by default, they're not for everyone. Yeah. So, so I suspect they will naturally attract a certain type of voice. Of course. Yes, of course. I completely accept what you're saying about the kind of, I don't know, the sort of cultural value of these places. Where I think it's slightly different is, you know, I'd use the fashion analogy. I'd say, you know, you go, you go to several row and you go into places like Hansmoon or whatever. And they are, they are of that world, they are of that era. But what they are also doing is they are constantly struggling with the idea of being relevant and contemporary and bringing in a new customer and what they can do. And there have been moments in several rows history where that's been right on the money, you know, when the Beatles had their headquarters there, and they were making kind of, you know, bespoke velvet suits and Tommy Nutter was doing his stuff from that kind of stuff. Which for me is very, very exciting, Edward Sexton, really exciting kind of like, let's use this thing that we've got that's very British and true, but let's welcome in, you know, the let's open the curtains and welcome in the 1960s and, you know, whatever, because hey, times change, you know, whatever. And I guess I suppose that my feeling is that these clubs are really not willing to do that at all. They're not going to, they're not going to make any concessions to a changing world. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know, it's not for me because I feel that things do need to evolve or eventually they will die as 90% of these places have done. When you said earlier, is it a bad thing? Is it a harmless thing? If it's a harmless thing, fine, let the members sit there and read the Wall Street Journal, you know, in their, in their way back arm chairs and he spotted dick or whatever it is they're going to eat. If they are still, you know, influential places, corridors of power, places where decisions are being made about the lives of the little people, then I'm worried. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. I remain Tom Chamberlain and this has been the luxury dispatch, the podcast that tells all the stories you didn't realise you wanted to know and answers all the questions you are yet to ask. Please do like, subscribe and if you have any comments, we look forward to reading them. Agree, disagree, suggest other topics you'd like to hear from us, no review will go unread. Thank you for listening.