Geno Auriemma on Belonging, Fear and Motivation, and Caitlin Clark’s First World Cup

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I'm Sierra Sohee. As always, we're going to talk some team USA later. But before that, we have a very special guest. Gina Oriama, he is the head coach of UConn. He has the most NCAA division, one basketball championships at 12. He has coached Team USA to three Olympic gold to FIBO World Cup titles. I don't need to tell you any of this. If you were listening to this podcast, you obviously know who Gina Oriama is. Gina, we're very excited to have you on the show. How's it going? >> Going great, and thanks for having me. And looking forward to talking about some WNBA stuff and whatever else you have on your mind. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you is because this documentary just came on. UConn and Dynasty on UConn D Dynasty on Apple TV. I've watched it, honestly, I'm not going to lie. I've watched it a couple times now because I was fascinated by just how open it was. And I don't think that in the women's basketball world, we often get these documentaries that show you how the sausage has been made. And I guess I'll start there. So there was obviously a lot of conversation after the documentary came out. But one of the things that stuck out to me is, of course, you participated in it. And it seems to me that you, the entire program, just your philosophy, it seems to me that you want people to know how difficult it is to win. >> Yeah, and it's funny because Paige brought that up. I saw something last week when someone asked her the question of, why were you so open? Why were you so vulnerable during the series? And she said the exact same thing. She said, I wanted kids out there or anybody watching to understand how hard it is to win. I want them to see what the sacrifices are. I want them to know that it's not an easy ride. It's not all cookies and cream. And I think that says a lot about the reality of winning, of trying the win. I'm trying to do something that's really difficult to do. And I'm glad that she acknowledged it. And I'm glad that we had the opportunity to show it to the world. Because sometimes it's like going to a Broadway show, right? We're going to see a concert. And what you see is people making it look so easy. It just kind of flows and it's nice and everybody's hugging at the end. But if you went to the whole thing and watch them work out and watch them prepare and watch them practice and watch them do take, have to take, have to take scene, have to see, and have to see. You would see that like Fred Astaire said, anybody that doesn't know who that is. But we have to work this hard to make it look this easy. And we want people to see how hard we work. Not that other people don't believe me. It's not unique to you kind that we work hard. But we wanted everybody to see this how hard kids work. That end up becoming champions. Do you think that with the cachet of the UConn program and the reputation that you've developed as a coach, you almost had a little bit more of leeway and a privilege to be able to open those doors and say this is what it really looks like? Like do you think there are other college coaches that do things similarly to you that maybe not maybe might not be able to do that or feel like they can do that? Of course, I think they feel like they could do that. It's I think because of our success, we have access to doing that, you know. But at the same time, a coach who, or a program that does the exact same things that I do, that doesn't want anybody to see it, can hide. You can't hide it, can't hide it. So you're going to be scrutinized, you're going to be applauded more when you win to a certain degree, and you're going to be scrutinized more when you lose. So not everybody wants them, wants to or has the ability to put themselves out there the way we the way we have that opportunity. Have you seen the documentary? Unfortunately, yeah, I was part of it. I saw it being made. Yes. Oh yeah, but did you watch it? Did you watch the clear interviews and everything like that? I've seen most of them. Yeah, I've not really sat down and watched all three, you know, like really paid attention. So I'm waiting a little bit to see that. Are you waiting for a special moment? What's the hold up? Yeah, maybe when I'm not coaching anymore. I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure I'll watch it at some point, but it's really difficult to watch yourself doing things, you know, because you become so critical, you know, like, I don't sound like that. I didn't say that. I didn't do that. You know, so I'm going to have to wait until I'm in the right frame of mind. Got it. Even if you're even watching as documentary, you would have that same sort of perfectionistic mindset that you have. Oh, yeah. It's basketball. Yeah. Is that is that every part of your life? No. No. Why? Where do you turn it off? No. I mean, if I was a perfectionist, I would, you know, I would lose weight when I feel like it. I would be more disciplined when I needed to be, you know, there's a lot of things. But I think that's the one big thing that, that maybe I've dealt with pretty much my entire coaching career. And that is, how do I get people to do things that's going to help them get what they want? And I maybe don't put those same things on me, you know what I'm saying? So let's say, like, I was in college, right? And I was in college and I was in the law club and I wanted to go to law school and I wanted to do all these great things. And my professor said, you're just not cut it out for this, man. You would be great at it, but you don't like the grind of it. You don't like, you just want to be out there in court, like, you know, like your party mason or something. And, and I thought to myself, you know, I bet there's a lot of people out there that they want all those things that are out there that are, wow, grading lammers. But there's a grind that you have to go through, there's a, and I think at that age, I wasn't ready for that. I didn't want to do that. I wanted it to just come easy. Mm-hmm. And I think there's a lot of kids that want a lot of these great things. And maybe they wanted to come easy too. And I think maybe it's my job to let them see that, no, it isn't. It's not. Mm-hmm. Don't make the same mistake I did. Wow. Wow. What kind of lawyer? What kind? Famous. Right. You wanted to be in the courtroom. Yeah, absolutely. You wanted to get off the good quips. Yeah. That's how I imagine it. Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to be that guy. You're seeing the show, the Lincoln lawyer. No, I haven't seen it. I want to say, I want to be that guy. Go watch it. I want to be that guy. Okay, cool. I've seen some of the OJ documentaries and how all of those, every single prosecutor that became famous. I'm kind of imagine that. Yeah. You're the main thing. You became famous for getting, for getting, for getting, for getting famous. Yeah. There's a lot of reasons why people become famous. That's right. There's a lot of reasons why people become famous or become infamous. Let's put it that way. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's a good way to put it. That's, that's, that's very interesting though. You, so in the final episode of the documentary, after you guys lose to Tennessee, which I could feel still how much losing to Tennessee, it impacted you and, you know, looking back at how it impacted Diana, like how she lose games against Tennessee, it was like she just wouldn't even allow herself to lose and, and, you know, you guys lose to Tennessee, obviously, the, the rivalries in a very different place than it, than it was in its hey day. But after the game, you really tore into page backers and you said in the documentary, I took a risk and I said, so either, she's either going to quit or she's going to change. So I tried to hurt her, her, like losing hurts. What made you feel like you had to do that at that moment? Um, well, I don't think it was losing to Tennessee specifically that it was Tennessee. I think it was Tennessee in the sense that, you know, the only reason we played, back-to-back at Tennessee, that game was supposed to be at Yuka in the natural rotation of things. But Paige is like, "No, I never played at Tennessee when it was a full crowd. I only played there during the bubble, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I said, "Okay, so we'll put that together and we'll go down here." Then we go down here and you play like that, you know? So it was part of that. And then the other part was, we've been having these conversations me and Paige for five years now about what you need to be if you want that prize at the end. And it was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And it was like one in one here and out the other. And even losing in the national championship game for sophomore year was like, "Yeah, but I have way more chances. I'll be back, you know, we'll do it. No worries about it." And I just felt like, you know, this is your last year here. We're getting to the point where we don't have time for it. I'll get it next time. This is got to be life-changing, right? Or not life-changing, but career-changing at UConn. Your UConn career right now is at a crossroads. That's what I felt. And so I've tried everything else. And I was just honest with it. I was just honest with it. It wasn't like I stayed up that morning and wrote up this great speech that I'm going to give her after the game. I don't do that. What I did was I let her see what happened and then I let her know exactly how I felt about it and how it impacted her. And I had the knowledge that because I know who she is and I because I know what kind of competitor she is and because of the relationship that we have that I could do that. If I didn't have that kind of relationship with her, if we didn't know each other as well as we do, I don't know if I'd have. And if I didn't think she was as good as she is, I wouldn't have done it. You can't do that with somebody that's just a good player. They have to be pagebackers. It's interesting looking back at that game because I remember while feeling like, yes, Paige certainly could have shot the ball more, Tennessee is taking it away from her. They want her to spray it out to the three-point line. You guys miss a couple of threes and I wonder if for Paige there's always this ability to justify being an unselfish player. We know now and maybe you've always known bad shot for anybody else is a good shot for her. And we saw through the course of the tournaments and her, sorry, you were going to say something. No, no, I was I was saying if people remember that game, nobody played particularly well. So it wasn't like Paige, it's your fault that we won. It wasn't that. And if people remember that game, we came out of a timeout and I think it may have been Thai school or something, I don't know. But we ran a play, Paige was wide open and Sarah's strong so freshman just kind of overthrew her and Paige couldn't get to the ball in time. And she was wide open and would have been a layup, we would have went up to and that would have changed the game completely, right? So it's not like, Paige you lost the game for us. It wasn't that at all. But Paige does have a way or did anyway up to that point of rationalizing anything that she wanted to. Hey, you you took 10 shots, you were old for 10. Yeah, but they were the 10 best shots you've ever seen. You're like, okay, great. Hey, you went two for seven from the free throw line. Yeah, but we won didn't we? I'm making one I have to. There's like never a time when she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think she did that too with rationalizing away, losses or bad things that happened to her. Yeah, but I think that's also the mindset of great, great, great players is they never lose their confidence. They never lose their ability to think I have, I have control. I have the, the destiny is in my hands. No one else's. Okay, but at some point you got to prove it. Yeah, you do need that reminds me of you. You actually spoke to my former colleague, Miran Fader. She wrote a feature about pagebackers and you talked about loving the delusional side of her. Yeah, but it seems like in some ways, it's a it's a shield in a way as well, which you need when you're a great player, but did you feel like you needed her to actually just see the truth of the failure in that moment? Yeah, yeah. It's okay to get pissed off that that that things didn't go your way. And it's okay to, you know, I use this example in 2001, I coached the best team ever. We have more WNBA players on that team than anybody ever. I think we had like 10 guys that were first round drippings, but we lost in the final four in 2001. Those players were all back the following year for the most part. They didn't say a word. You knew they were pissed. And when we got back to campus and all summer, all fall, all year long, they didn't say a word. It never came up, but you saw it in their face and you saw it in their actions. This is one pissed off team. Yeah. And we went 39 and 0 and it's probably the greatest team ever. The 2002 team. But that reaction was like they were pissed. They felt it. Yeah. Yeah, you could feel it. There was a difference when we got back together again. I just think in their cases, Paige and those guys, it was like, yeah, but you know, we just didn't play good. We'll get them next time. Yeah. No, no, not going to be a lot of next times after this. There's not going to be any time. Yeah. How did you guys, so you guys didn't speak for a while after that? How did you guys manage, you know, that wasn't on me. That was she didn't want to talk to me for whatever reason, which was fine with me. That was great. Two weeks for me. You know, I was only two weeks. Okay. Oh, yeah, it wasn't like forever. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh, the documentary makes it seem like you guys didn't talk for months, like it's like things weren't good. It's you know, you got to have drama, right? It's absolutely. You know, it's what would it be without the drama wouldn't you show? Well, is there a difference between what players in 2002 needed and wanted from a coach and what they need now? No, no, I think they they all they both need the same things. They need. They may need it in a different way, but definitely they need the same things. Because I mean, maybe I would say this, they need to be reassured more now than they did then. I think I think they're that that could be wrong, but I think they're upbringing in 2002 was a little different than they're upbringing in 2026, 2025. I think they're upbringing their competitiveness. They constantly had to prove themselves. There was never a time when they weren't competing for something. And I don't know that that same level of competing exists today. Yeah. Well, you're one of the most interesting parts of documentary for me was you're upbringing. You were born in this village in Italy, seven years old. You take a ship to America with your family. And you know this, but I'm one of the listeners might not. And your parents worked. You didn't speak English. Your lunch looked and spelled different than everybody else's basketball was a form of belonging, but it was also about proving that you could be better than everybody else, whereas it almost feels like, especially for page and even for Sarah, there's a basketball is a form of belonging, but the belonging comes maybe more from the connection with the teammates as opposed to the competition. Or maybe like, of course, they both exist in conjunction, but it feels like that plays a bigger role for these guys. Yeah, I think it played a big role. No matter when this idea of wanting to belong, wanting to be on a team, wanting to have teammates that you can you can count on that they can count on you. I do think in my own experience, there was more of having to prove not that you're as good. It's like, I don't know, it's like coaching, it's like coaching your kids. Okay, there's only two reasons, there's only two circumstances when when you should coach your kids, okay? One. they are one of the best players on the team and they're going to play and everybody knows it. Or they're the worst player on the team and they're not playing and everybody knows it. That way there's no argument of why your kids in the game. Okay, so when I was playing as a kid, I felt like, okay, if I'm just as good as everybody else, I still might not play, but if I can be a little bit better than everybody else or than the ones that I need to be better than, then I'll play more. So to me, it was a, I'm competing every day. But I wasn't, and I want the kids something on my team to understand is, I wasn't necessarily competing to win because the winning and losing is important. Don't get me wrong. But to proving to yourself that you can do it, to proving to your teammates that you're willing to go through the process and all that other good stuff, I think that's, that was the most fun for me and how hard it was and the difficulties that you encounter. That was the best part for me. And I don't want these kids today to go, I'm just in it for the end result. Like I want to be there when they hand out the trophies. Yeah. Well, there's a lot that goes into between the time you make the team and the time to hand out trophies. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. The journey itself actually being the reward. And it seems like there's also a level at which you wanted to be excellent on a level that nobody else could deny it, not even yourself. None of the people around you could act like you weren't good enough. And the inner voice itself could also, like you could, the results and the trophies and accolades behind you. They could all stand as a, as a testing ends, like whatever the external world might be saying. Yeah. And I think it's the same way now. If you look at the, the documentary and if you look at our success, to be, to be brutally honest, I mean, after we won our first one, there was a sense of we have to win again. So, you know, you always have this negative attitude, like people are going to think that first one was a fluke. So we have to win again. And then after we win again, it's like, oh yeah, well, now what are you going to say? Well, we're going to win another one. Then we win another one. And then we win three in a row. And then after wow, it's like, we've proven me personally, I've proven everything I needed to prove. They don't have the same significance anymore. But then you start to realize that every kid that comes here, they want to prove something. So there's never a time when you kind of basketball isn't trying to prove something. No matter what people say, whether they like us, they don't like us, approve of us, don't approve of us, it doesn't matter. The things that we're proving that we have proved on the court, whether you like it or don't like it, that's, that stuff's there forever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You've, you, you talked about how you feel like if you know what your player's fear, you can get to the root of what motivates them. I'm curious, what's the difference between what someone like Diana fears versus what someone like page fears versus what someone like easy fears versus even Sarah Strong. Inside of them, I think, and they'll never show it because they're too proud. I believe for those great players that have been held to such a high level of esteem and this plaque, you know, whatever you call it, they've been placed on a pedestal their whole life. I think their biggest fear is what if I'm not that? What if, what if I'm struggling in college because maybe I'm not that? They're not going to tell you that. They're not, they're not just going to volunteer that. They're not going to walk in and go, "Hey coach, listen, I'm scared shitless. They're not going to do that." But I think it's our job as coaches, just like the parents, you know, like you raising your own kids and you know something's going on, you know something's up by the way they're acting or thing and you got to sit down and go, "Hey tell me what's bothering you." And they're not going to tell you. And I think for me it's actually using the word, "What are you afraid of?" And then when they finally tell you if they're being honest, then you can kind of address it and talk through it and help them see that that's a natural thing that doesn't make them weak or doesn't make them less who they are. It just makes them human beings and the outside world, you know, if Diana Tarazi has a bad game, the outside world will see. She's not as good as everybody thinks she is or she they're going to have an opinion. It doesn't matter. But the hardest thing, not hard, but the things that I try to convince my players of, the great ones anyways, half the people that watch you play, no matter what you do, are not going to like you. The other half that watch you play, no matter how bad you play, they're going to love you always. So you can't get caught up in what if this, what if that, what are what are people saying? Now, back then it was easy. Today, you can't convince kids that easily that what people think of them doesn't matter. Their whole life is what people think of me. Yeah, there's, well, there's a difference too and what's required of them as well now, right? Like, so Diana, she was just on my boss Bill Simmons podcast and you know, she mentioned, you know, they used to just like win or lose mostly when they go out to eat and like they would just in general have a lot more fun and she was wondering if these arrow players that they're having fun and when you are simultaneously a basketball player and a walking brand and you have all of these endorsements, likeability in a way does become part of your job and you are constantly sort of interface with it at social media as well. Is that shame? Like, have you had to deal with that as a coach? Like, how do you manage that? Yeah, this desire to be liked is just overwhelming. So they do things to make sure that people like them. Well, how can you do things every day to make everybody like you and still be true to yourself? You know, you can't. Yeah. Now, one way you can do it is make sure people don't dislike you. Well, if you're going to stand up for who you are, if you're going to speak your mind, if you're going to be a leader, then you're putting yourself out there that people might not like you. And who's willing to risk that? Yeah. Like to your point, when you're a walking brand. Yeah. When you got a million followers. And we were just talking about it in the office just a minute ago. When you get to a certain age, you don't really give a shit about that. But when you're that age, when you're 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, that's like your world. So you kind of like are like this. Don't go one way or the other too much. Stay right here, which means you're vanilla, which means you're a robot. You ain't having any fun. Right? You can't do what Diane and those guys did. You can't go out at night and just let it rip. Because somebody's got a phone and they're videoing you and you're in deep, you're in deep do do. Yeah. Yeah, it's paralyzing. It's not a fun way to live. Well, it's not a fun way to live. And I tell them that all the time. That so you know, that we have this thing on the on the board, you know, in our locker room, that the only thing we care about here is we want to play hard, we want to play smart, and we want to have fun. If we can do those three things, then you know what, the rest of the stuff, we have no control over. But when you're 19 years old, and you have a million followers, and every day, every 10 times an hour, you're checking to see how's everybody liking you? You can't live in that world and I think have any fun. No, it's impossible. Did you ever care about that at one point? really it seems like you're really being the villain. Yeah I mean think about it you know when I came over to this country it was all about I want people to like me. It was all about that yeah. Because you know and I just you know I look around now and people are like you know throw these immigrants out why they just come here they just want people to like them you know they just want to be like the rest of us and I think that's that's every little kid you know they just want to be liked by by their peers and their peers you like people that are like you but if you're different than the people that you live around it's hard man it's a hard life that every day you get up and you're trying to find those few people that aren't judging you about this or that or the other thing. Yeah and you find this sport that yeah and you find a special language and generally speaking in sports people aren't judging you on anything other than are you good enough or you're not good enough. Yeah. Period and as I've got an old but when I first got into coaching it was yeah I feel like I'm I'm being judged and I need to win and I just win I mean I we need to win and it wasn't like hey just play hard place more and have fun now we need to win and again after a while you know you get to the point where it's just like all right man enough already you know like at some point this this is got to be about something other than just than just winning you know and I mean people laugh when I say this I have more losses in the final four than I have wins yeah I don't mean more like we've lost more national championships than we want yeah right so we've been their final four 25 times a record is 12 and 13 you're probably the only person in the world who knows that but I'm saying that what I'm an I'm an object failure in the final so what was your what was your post-mortem after last year's final four um you know the interesting thing about last year's final four um going into the game I mean I know we were undefeated and I know one I was worried about is the pressure of being undefeated going to get to us at some point if things don't go well things don't go our way so I had that in the back of my mind and so did the other coaches the other thing is if Sarah and AZ struggle for whatever reason do we have enough to overcome that and I we talked about I was like no we don't but you know they always play great in big games so don't worry about it well it happened yeah so after the game I did a page I rationalized it by saying listen we knew going in if this happens it's going to be really hard for us to win so it happened it would have been way harder last year if we have played really really well but played dumb did some stupid things and gave the game away that would have been really really really hard to live with but this one I knew going in like the year before when we went in we're like there's nothing that can stop us we're just so good right now that nobody can beat us I didn't feel that way last year so the the magnitude of it wasn't as brutal as it has been some other times like the buzzer beaters two years ago who lost that's yeah that's yeah that's that's brutal yeah that's it have you gone post rationalization or is that how still how you feel what do you mean I guess have you have you said it just sounds like you're thinking about this differently than I guess you normally would it seemed like and I guess I don't know you that well don't know just the first time we're talking so maybe I'm wrong but it seemed it would seem to me that most of the time after a loss you'd be focusing way more on all the little things that could have got that did go wrong but I think after after that period where you rationalize and say well we knew this could happen we knew this was a possible doesn't make it any easier but at least you're kind of prepared for it got it but what that also does is as we come back to school now we had our first meeting yesterday we it does give us things to talk about and say okay so those things that we thought if they happen are going to get in the way going to cause us to lose okay but what other things that we can control going forward this year that we can change to maybe minimize some of that if that should happen again so it does it does give you you know a whole list of things that this focus on those things and we talk with our team and go hey look you ask them too why do we lose why do we not get to where we want it to be and we throw some things out there and okay what are we going to do to address those things so it does give you a focus for this coming season for sure what didn't Sarah say to that question Sarah strong yeah well you know that's probably the very first time that Sarah has experienced anything like that you know you think about her high school career was nothing but you know wins and wins and then you think about her freshman year you go to college you're kind you very easily could have been the MVP at her final four you know and everything went great and we went and asked for a championship now we go back you know and and that was the hardest experience I think for her because after that game I'm talking to her mom and dad it she reacted in a way that they had never seen her react ever after a loss so she took it really really hard and took a personal so I'm anxious to see what the result of that is going to be this season she the most she did you have the most raw talent out of any when you've ever coached at I don't know it's hard for me to answer that is there I'm gonna ask you a question is there a difference between talent and skill ill no well then I would say she is as skilled in all the facets of basketball as anybody that I've ever coached I can't say more because I've had the most skilled players ever to play but I can say that she's as skilled yeah the challenge of coaching her does it remind you of other players that you've coached just somebody as that has all of those tools at her disposable and to your point never had to actually go through anything like this like you know watching her it's like she's especially this season but at this last season she leveled up in the face of all the big competition you guys faced early you know Ohio State Michigan there's a ferocity that came out in her I can understand even why you wouldn't have necessarily been as worried about her march right I certainly wasn't I don't think anybody was yeah I would say the frustration that she felt in that game was something that I hadn't seen normally she handles that better but I think it was such a big game and she knew you know I need to play grade and then I think she just got frustrated and I think that's something that we can work on say I'm missing a couple of things that can get her to like hall of fame but one of the best players ever to play college best what do you think about it current page I think or the only freshman never what they want every single war you can ever imagine as a freshman so like it's all downhill from there right I mean where are you going from that on the men's side she's right off into the sunset and go to go to the NBA and you know now she has to come back and do it all over again I would say if Sarah If Sarah had. had. I think she does. The ability to let that Maya Diana side of her come out, I think it would be something that would be really incredible to see. What's it going to take for her to do that? Losing last year in the final four. Okay. So we're good. We got past that part. Those two guys, more than anybody recently, that I can remember, those two guys, they had this competitiveness. They had this unbelievable drive and the way they showed it on the court that they won games before the games even started. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. People were just afraid of them. They looked at them. They were just physically imposing. And then they had this incredible talent and this ability to just singlehandedly destroy you in every aspect. I'm a better shooter than you. I'm a better passer than you. I'm a better rebounder than you. I'm a better defender than you. You know, like there's, it was that mentality. And I'm going to show it to you every minute of this game. And I think Sarah has that somewhere, because I've seen it. And she's going to have to reach in there. And for us to be what we want to be this year, that has to be there every game. Because if you look at our preseason schedule, then we could be like two and eight. You know, when you think about who we're playing, you know, when I mentioned that to the players the other day, like they knew it. But when I mentioned it, their eyes are like, oh my God, you know, I said, what do you think it's going to be like in South Bend? What do you think it's going to be like, you know, when we play South Carolina, LSU, At Ohio State, Michigan, at Louisville? Yeah. Well, you guys got a little bit unlucky last year too. In the sense of, well, a lot of, a lot of programs would look at it as, as though it was luck. But, you know, you need these big games as the year goes on. And then Tennessee that you always play is not having the year that you expect. Notre Dame wasn't quite there at that point when you played them either. And it was like, you know, you had these tough, like I think Michigan was probably the hardest game you played. And you know, it doesn't necessarily prepare you. So, you know, I think you'll be dealing with that problem this year. Last question I wanted to ask you, non-UCon division, who do you enjoy watching the most in the WNBA? Non-UCon players or non-UCon players? Who do I enjoy watching in the WNBA right now? Non-UCon players. Jessica Shepard? Wow. Okay. Notre Dame? Yeah. But, and I told her that. I said, oh my God. I said, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think what she does night in and night out to help her team win is pretty incredible. And again, the skill level, you know, she can pass it great. She can shoot it great. She can handle the ball great. She plays great defense. She rebounds the ball. She's a great teammate. So, I really enjoy watching her play. I don't think people realize it, but she, at Notre Dame, she wasn't what she is now either. She's a transformation. But, you know, what's interesting is she changed her body. And now her body allows her to do all those things in a way that people go, wow. And then it just goes to show you, you know, shows that any kids out there watching is like, there's nothing more important to your success if you have talent than the conditioning you need to have to allow your talent to come through, you know. So, I would say she's probably at the top of the list for me. I tell you what else. I was just, I forget then when I was watching the game, but Kelsey Mitchell mixed me somehow. I mean, she just makes me laugh sometimes, all the stuff that she does. Because I remember playing against them when she was at Ohio State, and I thought, holy moly, and she's just gotten better and better and better every single year. And so, that's another one. And, and, and Asia Wilson, I think, from the time she was in college to now, because in college, she was younger and she struggled with Sturley and FISA and, and those guys. But, but the progression that she's made every year has been, I don't believe it's been remarkable and, and how well-rounded she is as a player, not just one dimensional. So, I would say those three people probably, I, when I get a chance, I enjoy watching. Is she the greatest player of all time? Who? Asia. No. Who's your go? A whole time? Yeah. No. No. Who's your go? Me personally. Based on what? Based on however you want to judge it. I think we all have different metrics, but I'd be really curious to know what you how you measure greatness. Well, for me, it have to be either Sturley or Diana. I can you imagine anybody winning four national championships in a row, any more, and be an MVP at a final four, any more? No, I, that just can't happen in this era of college basketball. And how many titles she have in the WMBA? Three. Three. Three. And how many Olympic gold medals and how many world championships? So, I think three. And I, and I, and I think it's, it's a weird thing. We were just having this discussion the other day of what, what constitutes somebody's Mount Rushmore of things. Right. And the crazy thing about basketball is numbers alone don't tell the story. Unfortunately, it's championships. Baseball, it's numbers. Hey, you hit three 30, you hit 50 home runs, you're knocking 110 runs, whatever it is, you do that 10 years in a row, you're a Hall of Famer, and you never play in a playoff game. Generally speaking, you can't be considered greatest of all time in basketball or football, even if you're not part of championship teams. Yeah, yeah. So I will go with, so I will go with those people that, that win championships like that. Like, and you think about the WMBA and where it is now, I would say, you know, guys like D, Sue, Stewie, Asia, those guys have played on the Houston comments back in the day that won four in a row. Yeah, it's obviously it's way, way, way different game. But I do put a lot of stock in those guys that somehow or another always end up on the best team. Well, Gino, thank you so much for your time. I know you got to wrap. Otherwise, I'm very tempted to just continue to pepper you with questions for hours and hours, but I will not do that. Thank you so much for making the time. I really appreciated the open mindedness and the lens in which you guys were willing to open the doors to your program and show everybody what it actually looks like. I think we need more of that type of stuff in women's sports in particular. The storytelling is really important, but there aren't people don't always want to tell the story because the story doesn't always look so pretty. So I do, I do really appreciate that. Everybody should go watch the talk too if you haven't. Yeah, thank you so much. I'm sure I'll see you down the road. Good luck this season. I hope so and I enjoyed it and the better the question is, the better the interview is and I appreciate the invitation and I appreciate the questions that you ask too because we could have a lot of fun with them and I think people learned a little bit from it. So thank you. No, I hope so. Thank you. All right. Take care. Yeah. All right. Bye. All right. We are back. Love having that conversation with Gino. If you are a WNBA fan, you know that the league is going on a pause right now because the feeble world cup is coming up. The Americans will be taking on China Friday very, very early as part of their group stage matchups. I'm very excited for this tournament. It's a strange time to pause the WNBA season but it's also a bit of a necessity. 51 players from the WNBA are going to be participating in the world cup. It's also a great barnstorming opportunity for the WNBAs. Well, we know that League wants to grow the game internationally, the WNB. is eyeing its first game outside of North America in 2027. Toronto expansion has just been such a rollicking success. In fact, honestly, it only makes me more upset that Canada didn't qualify for the World Cup. That's also because they face this Japan team that I think everybody's going to love. They are skilled. They are fast. They have the shooters there. I say, "Cacoro Tanaka might be the Caitlyn Clark of Japan." But for today, I'm going to focus on Team USA. I think as the tournament goes on, I do really want to get into some of these other teams because I do think that like it is for the Americans, I think the results matter. But so do the reverberations afterwards for these countries that are trying to grow their games, grow their programs. There are some really great stories that we'll get into, whether it's about Nigeria, Japan, China, which I think is in the World Cup for the first time. I think it's almost like the FIFA World Cup. It's different because the whole world is watching the FIFA World Cup. It's almost like we get to pause and live in this utopian serenity where, yes, there's a competition going on, but it's like everybody's entry point into learning more about each other's cultures. I think that for the people watching this, I think that it'll kind of have a similar effect. America, how Team USA does, that's obviously the mainstream story. That is the biggest story. But I think it'll be an entry point for us to find some other things that were fascinated by it. But today, because the tournament's starting soon, I just wanted to talk about all the biggest stories around Team USA from how big the tournament will be. I'm very interested in that to the tactical stuff, to Carol Lawson, and how this team is going to deal with not having Asia Wilson and Kelsey Plum. So, all right, without further ado, I think the first thing I want to talk about is, can Team USA export the Katelyn Clark effect? So, the FIFA World Cup is historically taking a back seat to the Olympics when it comes to the hierarchy of importance in basketball internationally. But at the same time, any time Katelyn Clark has involved, her presence just has this way of making events that were previously kind of ho-hom. It just gives them a little bit more relevance. It gives them more meaning. In fact, TNT was the first major network to air even the qualifiers back in March. And now they're going to be airing every World Cup game, whether they're streaming it on HBO, or whether they're putting it on TV. So, that alone is huge. You have this demand, and you have a network that is meeting it. So, I'm very interested to see how that impact just the degree to which the tournament is watched and talked about and remarked about, and how big of a story it is overall in the sports ecosystem. And I think it's just a big moment for the WNDA. I think Katelyn's a great vessel to grow the game. Like her logo threes, they make children out of all of us. She certainly has international fans. Like, you know, we saw in the preseason last year when the fever played Brazil. And the Brazilian players, after we're just asking for Katelyn's autograph and wanted to take pictures with her and stuff like that. You know, she's got fans in China, her global Jersey sales are surpassed only by Shohei Otani. So, certainly she has international fans, but like she's kind of, she has yet to tap in to this global market. And this is kind of one of the first big ways that she's going to do that. So, I'm just interested to see how that turns out. And I also think we could all use a bit of a palette cleanser. Like, this season has been a bit of a discourse nightmare. And I think I'm just excited to see like her and Angel Reese on the court together. I'm excited to see Katelyn passing the ball up the court to Angel Reese for a lay of them. I'm excited to see them in the pick and roll together. I'm just like excited to see all of the basketball stuff with both those players like on the same team, you know. That was something that was so fun with the qualifiers as well like you had all of these really fun lineups as well. And now you have even more talented players that have been added to the Feebo roster as well. So, like, I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing like Sonya Citron play with the young intern lineup. Kiki Irifin play with the young intern lineup. The Americans will certainly have to go small a good chunk which we'll talk about. Leia Blostin in those lineups will be really interesting as well. Ryan Howard at the four. I've always felt like that is like a really natural position for her as like a floor spacing for who just wreaks havoc on the defensive end and pushes a ball up in transition. Obviously, she's more of a wing type of player, but I think she can do so much fun stuff at the four that we saw at the qualifiers too. And then also like just kind of like a Yukon sort of like throwback situation like getting Stewie and the Fisa Collier in the same lineups, throw page backers in there just to see if you can like run an offense solely by shooting mid-range uppers with a foot in the paint. Let's just see what happens with that. Yeah, like I'm just excited for the fun aspects of it. But one of the things that I think makes this tournament particularly interesting is that yes, the Americans are absolutely the most talented team in the field. They shouldn't win if they play their strengths or they play the right way. If they play their best or even like close to their best, they should win this tournament pretty handily. However, the world is catching up. We're a Gabby Williams put on the line in 2024 away from France versus USA for the gold medal going to overtime in 2024. That French team is better now than it was at those Olympics. Gabby Williams is a better player than she was then. She is up to her isolation game with the Golden State Belgrade. She's become more of an offensive threat. She's become more of a three point shooter. Dominic Malanga played three minutes in that game. She came off the bench. I think she had zero points. And now she is an all star. She is a unicorn. She is probably the best ring protector in the tournament overall. And she's also an offensive threat in her own ilk as well. They have Layla Lacan, who was a great defender and a great mid-range shooter and a fantastic athlete. It's one of the many players that it reminds me when Sid Coulson was like, "Damn, France just has a bunch of Gabby Williams running around." I feel like she was kind of talking about Layla Lacan there. Carla Lay, who is not really part of the France pipeline, necessarily because she didn't play it in-set, which is kind of like the Yukon of French women's basketball. But she has insisted herself around this team because of how well she's played for the Portland Fire. She's an incredible downhill threat. I think she could get Team USA into foul trouble. And she's a great defender as well. So you have these four elite perimeter defenders that are then flanked by the best ring protector in the tournament. And then you also have Pauline Astier, who is another great downhill threat, another great scorer who's really difficult to guard. And you have an American team that's kind of small at the same time. Now that Asia Wilson is out, Alia Boston is their only true center. And if she gets into foul trouble, it's not hard to see a Murphy's Law scenario in which everything goes wrong. For Team USA, Alia gets in foul trouble. Team USA isn't hitting its shots. They can't find an answer for Dominic Malonga. And then you have, man, I don't even bring up Marino Hannes or Janelle Salon, two of the best top shot makers in the WNDA people who can change the complexion of a game if they just decide to get hot at the right moment. So USA will be favored. I think though France has some interesting matchup advantages that they could exploit. I also think Natalie Nakasi, who is in assistance on Golden State, but you know, coaches Gabby Williams and coaches Janelle Salon has coach Carlo Leite. It's going to be somebody who's like the US team will rely on heavily for scouting and things like that as well. But this is all a consequence of the fact that Asia Wilson isn't playing in the tournament. If Asia was playing, I think I'd feel a lot differently about USA and just how dominant that I expect them to be throughout the course of tournament, right? Like Asia against France in 2024 had 21 of the American 67 points. She had a team high, 13 rebounds and four blocks, 21 points were a team high as well. She was really the only player on Team USA that really felt truly unguardable other than, I mean, even Kelsey Plum was pretty important to them too. She had 12 points off the bench. She did some really important stuff down the stretch of that game as well and was like this great downhill threat. I think Julio Copper will be important against them as well because of her ability as a downhill threat as well. But she was a huge part of beating that team. And now she's just not there. And they're going to have to make up for her by committee. But I think you just look at some of the sides that even the other teams have outside of France. Like Spain has AWFAM and they also have make the Leo as well. Nigeria has Stephanie Okachekwu, who I don't know if you guys remember watching her and college this year, but it's seven foot one. She's a tallest female. player in NCAA history, and she definitely had some special moments in her freshman season. And then there's China's John Zhu, who is a 19-year-old WNBA draft prospect, and she's 7.3. And she's going to be flanked by Han Zhu, who plays for the New York Liberty. Lee Huero, who in a move that is just so deeply me, had her passport lost in the mail, so she will not be able to participate in for China, which, I mean, your heart goes out to her. That's just like such a sad situation. That sucks. But China still has a ton of size. And look, the American should be China. But I do think that I do wonder, like, this team was already treading in the direction of this changing of the guard, right? Like, this team is much younger than previous Team USA teams. They have seven newcomers, and they're also very guard heavy as well. Now, they have Caitlyn Clark, they have Paige Beckers, they have Kelsey Plum, they have Jackie Young, they have Sonia Citron, they have great perimeter wing play as well. And I mean, God, like, this is without even, they don't even have Olivia Miles on this team, but this is a level of guard play that they have. And in last year, or in Paris in 2024, like, the guard's really struggled against France in particular, like zero points for you and asking you zero points for Chelsea Gray. And it really was like a big oriented system around Asia Wilson. I wonder if the Americans are going to lean fully into guard play and just change the identity of how this team has played. And instead of trying to match up size to size, they just use their space and their speed and their ability to just shoot and outrun their opponents and just get past bigger, slower opponents to beat the other bigs, like just kind of impose their own style on the game as well. Because there's just a lot of fun small ball combinations. And this team has just a ton of speed as well. Like, you can imagine these lineups, like, you could get like Clark on there with like car, Ryan, Angel Reese, and like one of like Sonia Citron, Jackie Young and Paige Becker's and like, that lineup could just run the floor all day long. You have guards that can just break down players off of the dribble and create advantages and mismatches that way. And if you space the floor, it allows them to just spray out to shooters. And then you're going to be asking like, you know, these these big tall plotting bigs on the other side to try to actually close out to the Ryan Howers of the world, to the Sonia Citron, to the Jackie Youngs, to the Clea Coppers, even Alia Boston, who's a great shooter in her own right as well. So I think I think we might see that change. And that's what I think that what Carol Lawson does with these lineups is going to be a source of fascination for me, because Carol Lawson is not somebody who typically likes to play small, like at Duke, she plays Toby Fornier and I think Delaney Thomas and their front court, even though that creates massive spacing issues for them. And even the qualifiers, the Americans didn't fully lean into playing small until Nate Tibbits took over for Lawson so that she could go back and prepare for March Madness. And look, maybe, maybe Sue Bird. This is the first roster that she's constructed as a managing director of team MSI. Maybe she's forcing her hand a little bit by not giving her a lot of bigs to work with. But I do wonder like when and how fast Carol Lawson realizes that the best way to unlock this team is going to be unlocking its small ball combinations. Because I don't think anybody is going to be able to keep up with the speed of the Americans. Except me, maybe France, who made me, I think France with Dom, like she's kind of the skeleton key. She unlocks a combination of size and speed. And they have players who can kind of defend everybody else on team MSI as well. I do think France can, on the right night, be a real threat. And then also, I mean, Cara's just going to have a lot on her plate as far as the line-ups go. Like, I don't think there's any perfect lineup that Lawson can play that is going to protect her from scrutiny. This is just one of those jobs that is very highly scrutinized. But I do think it makes Carol Lawson a very interesting person to have this job. She is somebody who has benched Flashe Johnson in the America tournament famously, even though Flashe was probably the most famous player on the team. Like, Cara Lawson is not going to be one that is swayed by public opinion or league agendas or agency wishes or popularity or anything like that. Like, I think she's a straightforward, no nonsense communicator. If there's anything she's biased towards, it's like her style of play, which is often more defensive minded. It's often more like in the vein of like discipline. And I think that's like perk some ears because on the Amazon Prime broadcast, there was a moment where she was like pretty critical of of Kaitlyn Clark and her late game execution against New York a few weeks ago. Kaitlyn didn't box out. She had a frustration foul. Indiana eventually lost the game. And like, Kaitlyn kind of sold that game. And it was a very valid thing for an announcer to critique. But it has made people wonder like, oh, like, is she going to enjoy coaching Kaitlyn Clark to which I would say, yes, I think she will. Like, I think that they are kindred competitors. I think that like, they both live and breathe and want to win games. I think Cara Lawson is like just such a complete complete competitor. Like, she's like, if you watch her on the sidelines, like, she's so stoic, but the moments she smiles and she smiles in this kind of unnerving way when it happens. Like, she's sort of like, I don't know, like, she has just like crazy unnerving smile that comes out when like, a player goes like on the floor for a loose ball. If you're like interviewing her and you ask her about like a high level competition, like, she talked about how like, you know, this world cup is going to be hard and she's like excited that it's hard. You know, I think she's just like that type of person. She's like, she's a basketball sicko. She's a basketball sicko. And I think that's great because I think she's going to play the right people. I am also fascinated to see who she believes are the best of the best. Like, one of the things that's so that was so interesting about 2024 and Paris was that like, you got the best players in the world all lined up together. And within that, it became very clear that Asia Wilson is the best amongst the best. For Caitlin, in particular, I think it's going to be, you know, fine. I think it's a good test for her. In fact, to have to, you know, kind of be around this coach that's going to like care about her turnovers and whatnot, but like, she's improved a ton defensively. I think, Cara, speak on that, spoke on that herself. And she's been very complimentary of Caitlin's ability to like, run an offense and being on engine onto herself. So I think that relationship's actually going to like go pretty well. Like, just in a way that like, USA basketball in general, like, you get all these competitors together, like, creates a space for like natural camaraderie. Like, they are watching each other. Like, they're very watchful of like, how, how, how do you prepare? How do you prepare? And like, you're simultaneously picking some off of them. You're using your peers as a measuring stick. There is a tension there of like, who plays? Who doesn't play? Like, which players will take that into the playoffs as either a form of, you know, revenge or will it like mess with their confidence? Like, there, it is very interesting that this tournament happens. And then like, we have five games until the postseason starts. And, and players will be asked to sacrifice as well. Like, I think, Clea Copper might be somebody who doesn't play a lot until the Americans play friends. I think, you know, Angela Rees now that Kiki Yerefin has been selected. Their games are very similar as well. They're both like high motor players, excellent rebounders. They're both the same height. They both like to drive. They both put a lot of pressure on the rim. But Kiki's like, I think Angel is a better defender, but Kiki's a better finisher. And if Angel struggles to finish, then it might be Kiki that gets to play more. Or if they need Angel Reese's rim protection, then it's going to be Angel. Like, I think that'll be an interesting one as well. Then there are going to be these games too, where I think that like, again, particularly against friends. Like, if the Americans get slowed down, I have to play more of a half court game. Would it make more sense to run the offense through page backers? Even like Chelsea Graham, I imagine won't play a ton, but she's a half court player. And honestly, for her, it's like a blessing in disguise. She doesn't play like the less that is asked of Chelsea Gray, the better for the aces. So I think, you know, there's also that aspect of it as well. Do you want your favorite players playing a lot of minutes in this tournament? That's six games in 10 days, and you're flying over season back and then having to go right into the playoffs. So there was like that rest aspect of it as well. Like, there's certainly some teams that, like, I think for Washington, it'll be great. Like, you have young players that get to interface with the best in the world before they go out and they make their postseason debuts. For the fever, you know, you have a League of Austin who's going to have to play some pretty heavy minutes and guard all the biggest players in the world. And then you have Caitlyn who's going to be asked to help me off. And it's like, they might get a little bit tired. The aces, Asia dropped out, but Jackie Young and Chelsea Gray are two players who, you know, got logged a ton of miles in the last few years as well. So, you know, maybe it all comes out in the wash. Like, you know, even the balconies, they have so many players that are playing, like, for non team USA. And I think that comes with like a different level of pressure of like wanting to to compete for your country, Leonie Phoebitch is representing Belgium, and then Brianna Stewart is probably going to be asked to do a lot more now that Asia is out too. But the one player who I haven't talked about yet, who's going to say isn't being talked about enough, but I am being part of the problem here, isn't a Fisa Collier. I think that she has dark horse MVP potential. I think she's going to rack up a ton of points. I think that she is going to be like the biggest beneficiary of the pick and roll play. I think since 2024, she's grown so much as an isolation player. She's grown as a three-point shooter. Her ball handling has improved. Her ability to play on the wing has improved, and I think she's going to be the best defender on this team. She's going to be asked to guard the best perimeter players, the best wings, and the best smaller rigs, and also the big, big ones when she's asked to play small. She can play in the full court, she can play in the half court, and frankly, she's probably the best player on this team, and maybe it's just an Asia thing, right? For who's the best player on this team, it's probably between Caitlyn and the Fisa, and I probably give the edge to the Fisa. She was MVP runner up last year, and Grante is not going back from her injury yet, but she is one of the best players that I've ever seen play in modern basketball. She'll rebound, she'll push the ball, transition, she can pick, she can roll on the pick, she can pick and pop. She can just be the skeleton key for this team as well, and I wonder if she takes on the MVP, and then I think Caitlyn's obviously a candidate for that too. She was the MVP at the Feeble qualifying tournament. She's going to rack up a ton of points, she's going to rack up a ton of assists. If she is the offensive engine to a team that outscores everybody and just runs on everybody, then yeah, it would make sense if she ended up being the MVP. I think a lot of it could just come down to the style of play that the Americans end up having to play either because of defense forces them to or because of lineups and whatnot. We'll see. I'm just very excited. I just think that these types of tournaments are really interesting. I think it tells you a lot about a player and where they stand when they're amongst their actual peers amongst the best in the league and who they are. It's just like the cream kind of rises to the top and then we'll also have fun with who should play together in free agency aspects, who's doing recruiting, where is this going to be the birthplace of the next super team, all of that stuff as well. Granted, a lot of these players are on their own super teams right now as well, but that's it for me. Thank you so much to Genevore Yamma for making the time. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing. Thank you guys for listening and we will be back next week. [Music]