Gayer Than Originally Anticipated: Follow-up Interview with Jenna Dewitt - Sapphic, Aromantic, Asexual & Christian

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Where do we go from here podcast. I'm your host, Edie J. and today I am speaking with a long-term friend of the podcast, Jenna DeWitt, who has been on the podcast before. Was that 2019-2020 somewhere around there? So we're at 2020-2021, I can't remember exactly, but it was pretty early on in the podcast existence. Yeah, very cool. So you were talking with Jess and Debbie just kind of sharing some of your story. And on that original episode you said that you identify as a romantic asexual. Is that still how you identify now? Yes, but with some more nuance. So the title of my episode before, and you're welcome to go look for it in the archives. But the episode was titled correctly. I wasn't straight and I wasn't gay. But that was not the whole story. So I am asexual. And that what that means is I don't experience sexual attraction to any gender. And I'm somewhere on the airomantic spectrum, not really where it's just so rare that it's statistically in trouble. But when I do it's to women, and then I also have really strong aesthetic attraction to women and platonic attraction and all these other kinds. So there's split attractions. You not everybody's attraction is all lying to be the same gender. So I think that's really confusing for people who maybe are bi-romantic, but heterosexual or homosexual, or they have one specific gender that they're attracted to in one way, but then also experience multiple kinds of multiple genders in another way. I think that can sometimes be really confusing for people. But for aromatic and asexual people, it can be either or like you don't have to be aromatic if you're asexual and vice versa. So it's kind of just describing a frequency or quantity. You know, we had to use the word lack. It's not that I'm lacking sexual attraction as if that is something you're supposed to have. And then I'm just like deprived of it or something. But it's just that my life looks different than other people. So just the same way that a straight woman isn't really attracted to other women, it's that I feel that for almost everyone. But on the rare occasion that I do feel a little bit that it's definitely for girls. So I use the word sapphic because the word lesbian has been-- I had that word. Yeah, it's-- the word lesbian's has really been politicized. So you might know the origins back in ancient times and dignity, there was Sappho. And she was this poet who wrote about her love of women on the Isle of Lesbos. And so lesbian became kind of a name for people who are attracted to women. But Sappho, of course, leads us all to sapphic. Meaning just like everyone who is a woman or a woman identified who like has experience of attraction in whatever way. Like romantically, sexually, in a partnership, you know, if that intimacy is there, that's a sapphic enemy. So that also includes bisexual people and pan women and all sorts of variations within the queer spectrum. But it's a little easier for me as an asexual person because when I came out and this was not under my birth name. But just like when I came out kind of to myself and then like anonymously on my little social media page, it was really contested. Like 2014, 2015, and 2016, there was a lot of intercommunity conflict about whether asexual people were valid, whatever that means. Sorry, social justice, talk about that. But it's like whether we're valid, whether we're wanted, whether we're part of any community or a community, what does it mean? What are we doing here? And we'd already had those conversations in our community for a very long time. But then kind of our social media was growing and developing. There were new people who were discovering this identity and it became very politicized, very high tension between whether people who are on the aromatic or asexual spectrums are allowed to use the word lesbian. So I just decided to skip the debate entirely and go with the most inclusive term. So you can call me an asexual lesbian. That is totally fine. It's technically correct. But I really like the word sapphic for just how it bonds us with our sisters of all different specificities under the quere umbrella, who also really love women. Yeah. Okay. That's really cool. Can you explain a little more about what it means to be aromantic? I guess I'm just trying to wrap my brain around that. So it's like you have very rare attractions or attractions of rare. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And so in each of those can be separate from each other. But when we say that we are aromantic, it's little to no romantic attraction. And we say we're asexual, little to no sexual attraction. So those are different spectrums. It's not like a lot of people get this wrong. And they'll say that aromantic is a type of asexual, but it's not. It's not related at all. And so they're parallel to each other and that we use the same chronology and it's the same concept. But it's like talking about two different things. And so then you can have like all this gendered expectation, right? And so women are expected. It is just so put on us from the day we are born that we will be romantic. And you know, she's just going to woo her hot, you know, his heart and Prince Charming will come and let's set aside money for a wedding and all these things. And with men, even his little boys, it's like, oh, he's such a flirt. Oh, he's, you know, he's got a little girlfriend or you know, it's like these things that tend to lean more, especially as they grow into puberty of sexualization. The physical attraction, the like their bodies are meant for this, whereas us, it's more like our heart, but that kind of can get really gendered and very weirdly binary, very, very fast, especially when you consider that there's a whole spectrum of gender identities. And so there is a really, really big problem that we have a disproportionately low representation of asexual men. And so when you see surveys at the asexual community, it'll be like 60% identified with women. And then maybe, you know, 30% non-binary and trans, that's typical. And then maybe like 10% in the men or I don't know. But that's so that's not because men are tasexual. It's simply because it is very hard to talk about. It is very hard to have community and conversations around this among men and the vice and the person that's the same is true for women is that with aromanticism. It is really hard to understand as a young person that you are not just a late bloomer. That it's not just like the right guy hasn't come along. Mr. Right, you know, is trying to find the Mr. Right. And he saw the queerness represented from an aloe perspective. Aloe means you're not aromantic and not asexual. So I was just seeing it from like, you know, these stereotypical lesbians are like athletic or motorcycle riding, they're masculine and they got their hardwares and they like fixing cars. Or they're super ultra thin and six in the city and feminine and power suits and you know lipstick lesbians like they're super super feminine. And they're experimenting or whatever. So I was kind of the stereotypes that really existed when I was trying to figure this out. And so I said, no, I'm not gay because I don't look like that. Like I don't act like that. I don't want to wear men's clothing, but I also don't want to look like Carrie Bradshaw or whatever. So I didn't fit in any of these stereotypes of what a queer woman is supposed to be, but then I was also discovering I didn't fit into the straight world either that like I thought, okay, well, I've had these wonderful guys that wanted to date me. And I don't feel anything for them like on paper, we should be perfect. We should be the absolute romance book perfect couple, but I didn't feel that. And so I've always said, you don't have to want it in regards to sex and romance. And that doesn't sound super revolutionary to somebody who's listening to this podcast a lot is like, well, yeah, obviously we're raised in purity culture. That's why we're here. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like purity culture told you you have to really, really want this and your holiness or st.hood or faithfulness will be proven in resisting temptation because you want it so much. But if you're a romantic as a woman, especially you just think, oh, well, eventually I will maybe I will get a male co-worker and this one is going to be the one that changes my mind. This is going to be the guy that, you know, everything changed that day that she looked into his eyes and love it for sight and all these things. And we just have these romantic notions of this and then you know guys, same thing with asexual is that they're just told you want temptations so badly like all the college small groups are like, okay, men, we have to talk about our porn use. Like the asexual manners like I don't relate to any of this. And so it's really weird how especially in the church, these identities have been incredibly erased. And a race to the point of oh, it must not be hard for you when everything in church assumes romance and sex. So now, they did a lot of that from the more evangelical perspective. So I would say yes, there's some of that in the mainline as a Methodist, I experience a little bit, but very rarely. We're not, we just want to talk about that stuff. It's just not part of our daily life because we're so diverse and so varied. So that's kind of where some of the purity culture comes in, that's kind of where air mangasism uniquely kind of affects women in some ways. But you know, in the end, it's just you don't have to actually have sexual and romantic relationships to be a healthy, mature adult. That's not what makes you a grown up. And I realized, yeah, I mean, I realized I can apply that to any areas of my life. You don't have to live in the same home with a partner. You don't have to sleep in the same bed with your partner. You don't have to do things in a heteronormative way or even like what's normal for most queer people. So we get to find what our lives will be, we get to define what our lives will be and the relationship types that we want to have. Yeah, yeah, awesome. So how did you kind of come to these conclusions about yourself or discover more about who you are? Because I know like being raised in purity culture and eventually getting married and all of that kind of heteronormatively. Like I now in my forties look back and go, I have questions about my own sexuality that I don't know exactly how to answer because I wasn't allowed to explore that back then. And I guess I got married right at the time when I was starting to explore and because I married heterosexuality, it's kind of like, well, you're not queer then, right? So I don't know. Like I have my own questions about my own about myself. But yeah, I'm just curious how that unfolded for you and for other people who are listening how we can kind of maybe explore that for ourselves, even if we have followed a heteronormative path. Yeah, yeah. So just kind of go through the letters a bit until we get to the end and then that's where my picks up. So we know lesbian and gay is pretty much you are attracted to your same gender. And that's the easiest way I can say that. And then we have the B which is bisexual, but it also includes this umbrella identities. So like, pansexual would be more of like the way that they say it and shits Greek. It's so great. I like the wine, not the label. Like it's not about red wine or white wine. And that's kind of how pan people would describe it as like, it's not the gender of the person that I'm seeing. It doesn't matter. Like that's not a factor in my attraction. Whereas by people say like, well, you say that was pan-pansexual. Yeah, it's pan. And so by would be more of like, yeah, I mean, it is, like I think you are an attractive woman. Like that's it does it does factor in. I'm just attracted to many types of people. So yeah, some of them are women, some of them are men, some are non-binary, some are somewhere between. And so a bi person would kind of describe it more of like, no, no, gender's a thing. It's just not like the old like it's not limiting me. And then of course, there's all these other little identities under that of people, nuanceding that more carefully. And then we have the entire gender spectrum under the trans umbrella and non-binary umbrella. Q is kind of just whoever wants to be there and it's kind of questioning maybe you'd find yourself there. Just kind of a good umbrella term. And then I would be intersex people who are born not into the binary of sex. And so I'm like, transgender people, you know, not all, but a lot of them are parisx, which like you were assigned a specific gender of birth. And that is your sex and your gender and they're supposed to align and they do not. And then intersex would be more like, we don't know what to assign you. And so often these babies will get non-concentral obviously surgeries. And a lot of times they're just cosmetic. They're not necessary. Because the doctor and/or the parents have decided you need to fit into a gender binary. You have to fit into life. And this is going to make your life better and easier. Not medically or for any kind of reason. In fact, it often complicates things later. And they're hiding these things from each other. So then we get to the A. And that's me. So we have aromatic asexual, often agender is included there. It can also be under the transumbrella as well. But the A is not for ally. The A is very specifically for asexual and aromatic and possibly agender. And then we have a plus because this is not limited. Like we're not like putting down, like you have to fit in one of these letters perfectly. And some people like, I don't really fit that. Or I'm from a different culture. So there's been criticism of the LGBTQIA being very Western, very white sometimes. Whereas recognizing like Native American identities of they've kind of gotten together. It's like, hey, we see in our past in our history, there's this thing called two spirit. And so it's kind of a manufactured term in the 90s, I believe, to kind of like represent what various traditions within the American indigenous population have experienced throughout time and history. And so there's different variations depending on what country you're in, what part of the world you're in, what the history of culture there has been in different groups. So we love to include that plus on just to say, you know what, this is not a limited amount of multiple choice options. So yeah, I guess for me, it's, you know, it's, you know, we're only about 1% of the population in a sexuality. That's what they recommend. I would say it's probably more because it was based on a study 22 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where you were 22 years ago, but I'm pretty sure you were like me and had no idea that there were lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, LGBTQIA. Yeah. It's like, it just was not on anyone's radar. So, you know, 2004, it's like that was not a great time for people even if you were out and your identity was known. So, you know, it's hard to talk about asexuality and a climate that is still talking about don't ask don't tell. And you have to have public service announcements from Hillard F saying, that's so gay as a slur is bad. There's nothing wrong with being gay. Like it's not a bad thing. So I think when you're in that environment, because that was my high school years, that's what you know, when you're usually experimenting and trying out new things or seeing what you like. And you don't have to engage in any specific behavior. Like it's not like people said, well, you know, you don't know you're a lesbian because you've never dated or, you know, like, well, you've dated men, you can't be a let it's like, no, it's not about the behavior. It's about your intrinsic identity, who you are inside. So they, you know, it's, we've got all these jokes like Carol on Friends is, you know, kind of the butt of the joke or Will and Grace or, you know, Ellen and things. And so it's like, okay, well, as long as you're the queer eye kind of comic relief, then you can be the fun gay best friend or you can be the, you know, the woman who fixes cars and this sitcom or whatever. So we got all these stereotypes, but I just don't, I cannot imagine that 1% of the population is asexual, could be a really accurate number. So I don't know, yeah, it's probably probably somewhere more in the 234% of people, but, yeah, you know, look around at the last time you were with 100 people in a room. That's, you know, your church service maybe, or lecture hall. Statistically, there were an average of 1 to 2 asexual people there. Yeah, if you're not super parted into the queer community, that probably has never occurred to you. And it's not like, I mean, literally every 100 people, but, you know, it's like on average, if you're looking at co-workers or church members or just normal people in the grocery store, that's, you know, in a city of 100,000 people, there might be 100 or 200 or 300 asexual people. And that's a lot more than I think most people would assume. So yeah, yeah. It turns out that actually we form a significant number as well as a significant value to society and specifically the queer community. Yeah, just thinking about that, the idea of being in a room with 100 people and recognizing that someone is likely asexual, that's actually really thought for breaking, I think, because it's not a small number and there shouldn't be minimum. Yes, so there's some things about your life that may be a little different from, I don't know, heteronormative people. How does that kind of play out for you, I guess? And how are you treated when people know that you're asexual and how can we learn to treat people better? Yeah, especially since it is so common. Even if it's only 1%, that's actually, that's actually a lot, one in 100 for a lot. Yeah, it reminds me of both of those, if I don't address both, but I'm going to go, okay, so the first question was, what kind of looks different for us? And yeah, they definitely are related. It is one question bit. I want to make sure I cover both. So it really depends on your context specifically, but for a lot of us, it looks like not getting the medical care we need or having inadequate care or having, you know, overdiagnosis, because, for example, I have experienced this, which I was so far along in my A-Stronie that it was more hilarious to me than anything. It's like, "Wow, you're walking through your type." But I had a psychiatrist say, "Oh no, you don't have ADHD. You are just lonely and depressed. We need to get your depression under control." And I was like, actually, I feel like the depression is so much better. Like, he put me on the zooloft. I was like, "This is amazing." Like, yay, this was a solution I needed. And he's like, "Well, so you, are you living alone?" And I was like, "Yeah." And he said, "No pets or roommates or anything." I was like, "I've got 14-Alo plants." It's like, "I'm with Zubi again, Lauren." Yeah, I was like, "Do you have a boyfriend?" And I was like, "No." And I was like, "You're not dating anyone?" I was like, "No." I was like, "Do you have family you are with all the time?" And I'm like, "No." And so, I mean, it's just like, eventually you got to start feeling like the woman with the well, you know? It's like, "Where's your husband?" Yeah. Yeah. It's like, "I don't have one." But, you know, it's-- It was just like me, like, me, lonely, like, they're not the same thing. And is that the assumption that they made? Yeah. Oh my gosh. The most lonely I have felt is when I am in a big group of people that did not see me, despite all of my efforts to become my authentic self in that community in context, you know? And so, I think it's way easier to do things alone or to travel alone or be able to maneuver a crowd alone, whether you're talking about like an airport or a theme park or a convention or whatever, like, it's so great to go with people. And that is something that ACEs bring in a positive light and aromatic people. Just that we prioritize and focus on and see found family and friendship groups and one-on-one friendship time in a totally different way because it's not secondary. So, there's this term that we like to talk about called "A motto normativity." And that's a very big word. But a motto just think of, like, you know, the roots of the word being more, like, a more, you know, like, it's love, romance. But specifically, a romantic and sexual partnership that is at the center of the point of life, not just even like your own time and priority is on your schedule. But, like, it is the reason that humans are on this earth and we have a monogamous, reproductive, sexual and romantic partnership that defines who you are as a person. And you see this a lot in TV shows and movies and all sorts of things. I've been watching Scandal and the Olivia Pope is the main character and she's helping this guy with his election, you know, trying to go into an election. I say, "You can't win unless you're dating." Like, if you're gay, that's fine. We can sell that. Like, we can make it a revolutionary thing. I can't make singleness and celibacy into, like, anything remarkable. People don't like that. They don't understand it. They can't put you in a box. Like, there's no way you will win an election if you are single and solid. And so, I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's right there." Like, she said, "I mean, she's not wrong." You know, like, that happens to us a lot. Is it, "People do not trust a single person or a solid person." They think you must be really mature. There must be something wrong with you. There are flags all around. Like, you know, here, I'm 37, okay? If you here on the internet, if you were to type in your group chat or what are your friends and say, like, "Hey, I'm thinking about dating this 37-year-old who has never had an adult relationship." They would probably say, "Oh my God, don't do that." That sounds awful. What a red flag. There must be something wrong with her. What on earth has happened to her life? Like, there must be some tragic backstory. You know, there's a reason. There's a reason that this person is so flawed and broken that they would never be. I'm sure my husband was asked questions when I was, he was 28, I was 30 when we started dating. Why has she never been married? What's wrong with her? What's going on with this chick? I feel like the 30 is more of the average now. But that's the difference between normal and normative. There's been a lot of discussion this week about the word normative. But single people are normal statistically. It's really tough to populate. It's actually when you factor a widows, divorced, never married, whatever. It's part of our just, you know, the average person you would normally meet. But then you look at what I said, what is normative? And what is normative is there is something wrong with you if you're not currently in, recently in, or very actively trying to find a romantic and sexual partnership as part of a modern normativity. And so this stuff hurts everybody because if you're in a marriage, then it's supposed to be your one biggest, they're your best friend, your partner, everything to you, like you're my whole life. And if you're not married, then you have to be seeking it. And it's a panic of timelines. I'm approaching 40. If I don't get married now, I'll be alone forever. You know, my best friend's wedding, if we're not married by 30, and it's just like most people are not married by 30 now. Like it's just very normal. Yeah. So it's like working for a certain, in the bracket and class and all that. But it's just, you know, what is normal is some people experience romantic and sexual attraction. Some people don't. Some people are attracted to men. Some people are attracted to women. Some people are attracted to non-binary people. Like that's normal. Yeah. That is totally normal. God made us with all sorts of varieties, just like he made palm trees and grass. And those are in the same family for some reason. It's very bizarre. Why are palm trees a grass? It's crazy. But you know, you look at like the wildflowers behind a dumpster. I've probably said this before, but you know, you're just like so much variety in life that only exists, like not for a functional purpose, but just because God likes it there. And you know, I think that there can be, we can see so many benefits of aromatic and asexuality and of separately the behavioral side, solubacy and singleness, which those are not related. Not everybody who's one is the other, except, except, but there's a pretty large overlap if you are looking at the asexual and aromatic communities, and a lot of us happen to also fall into the solubacy and singleness camp. And so we see a lot more of what is the, how do you get treated differently? Because most of us don't go around talking about how much sexual attraction we have. So when you're at like the doctor, you know, you might be asked about that at a reproductive, you know, exam. But you know, the psychiatry and therapy, that is another area we need a lot of that. And then we have a lot of different discussions about social ethics and purity, which most often happen in church. And so between medicine, mental health care, church, and just casual conversations with friends, those are kind of where it stands out more of like, oh, no, I don't see the world that way. I don't think of people that way. But on average, when I'm just having small talk or conversations or business, you know, at work or anything like that, there is no one cares, no things about it unless you are, I've been for it as a leader and activist like I am. So I don't get treated differently. Unless I'm in a place where that is the assumption, like that psychiatrist that I talk about. But mostly with other professionals, my doctor, my therapist, my current church, which is affirming and very, very filled with lots of wonderful single women, most of whom are widowed, or just never married, but they're on the older side of things. Well, of course, like, yeah, that sounds great. So they may be straight and orientation, but they were like, I don't want to live my life. I don't want to get married to a man again. I've done that. I really like my life being single and troubling the world. So they don't question, but it's when you get in those communities. So the second part of your question about how do people treat you is like being sure to surround yourself with the kind of people who want to know and love your authentic self. And I would encourage that not just for asexual people or for creepy people, but like for anybody in the world, especially people with children, because you don't know how they're going to end up. And so if it's okay for you to attend a not affirming church, as long as everyone assumes that your kids are cis and straight, what happens when one of them or their friends or their cousin or someone they want to bring with them to church, or their boyfriend or girlfriend, comes out. And then you have to abandon your entire community and say, hey, this is not healthy or mature or responsible for me to keep investing in this. That is actively seeking to harm my family, my kid, my loved one. Like why are we going to that church in the first place? Don't wait until it's like, oh no, now this issue personally affects me. And I have to decide about it. And that breaks my heart. It's like no, just attend the affirming church in the first place. So when you have a gay best friend who is looking for a church and can't find one, because it's so hard to find affirming churches, you already have one to invite them to. So it's kind of one of those solidarity things of like having the accommodations for disabilities before you have a wheelchair user at your door who cannot get up the steps. You got to build a ramp ahead of time. And it's very much like that too, that you got to think about these things. Becoming an anti-racist before you have, quote, a black friend. You know, like a black pastor. You know, so it's all those things of trying to put yourself in a place, you know, regardless of your own orientation, or you are surrounded by the kind of people that if you explained, because they're probably not going to know. But if you explain what asexuality or air mantisism or creonness or whatever mean to them, they would say, "Oh, that's nice, okay." Yeah, I don't really understand that, or I don't, you know, that's not my experience, or that's in a new term to me. But that makes sense. And I'm happy for you that you get to live your life that way. And then, you know, I'm always here for you if people reject you. And that's the kind of community I've been able to absorb myself and in my thirties. That was just you're not at all available to me in my twenties, and certainly not before that. Yeah. Yeah, it took me a long time to figure out which kind of touches are queer-affirming and to change denominations in Australia first and then in states. Yeah, because I agree. I think you need to surround yourself with people who are like-minded. I think I did kind of, I guess you could say, I waited until I viewed that I've gay uncles, but it was more of a, I didn't even understand that there were different types of Christian, like that you could be a Christian and be creonferming. Wasn't really on my radar. You know, in my early twenties until having uncles come out and go, "Oh, wait a second, I didn't fall, I can't, you know, I can't stay, I did stay in the Pentecostal Church until it was 28 and then I was like, "I can't do this anymore." Yeah, so yeah, super important. Surround yourself is people who believe similar things that are queer-affirming. I think that's important. So how do we kind of talk then to side B? Because side A is the queer-affirming, right? And side B is more of a you can be gay if you're a celibate kind of idea. Yeah, it's been described and featured on the podcast in the past, but I would say that we would all kind of agree in neutral definition is conservative theology that marriage is between a man and a woman and that is the only appropriate context for sex. So where does that all gay people? Gay people are welcome to openly and honestly participate in that, which is called a mixed orientation marriage. So there's nothing that says you can't get married as a gay person, but you just have to marry somebody of the, you know, quote, opposite, as someone of the expected gender. Yeah, so you're not attracted to. But otherwise you have to be commanded by God in the Bible to stay celibate and most likely single despite having plenty of attraction to their own gender. So there's a forced element to it. It's that puri culture of you have to be this even though it's a distraction, even though God made you with certain attractions, even though this is the best healthiest, you know, life free that you are called to. But no, we think that God put down the rules to make that attemptation. And like you're supposed to resist this, you know, you're not allowed to love in the way that God has created to love. And it's just none of that makes sense to me reading this from a liberation viewpoint, reading it from a mainline progressive viewpoint. And that's, I'm not an ex-vanjolical. I never was. Even jokal. I just lived there professionally for a while. And so it doesn't really fit in my view of who God is. And I think that's when it comes down to. It's not about, oh, I'm persecuted for being sold it. No, like, I mean, we can all talk about that. But the idea is that you have a view of the Bible that is so evangelical and so defined of who is this God that you worship, who sets down these rules and how far is too far. And I'm going to tempt you to test whether or not you are worthy of my kingdom. And you are put on this earth to be like God made you gay on purpose to be a sign of the fallen world and temptation. And, you know, all this sort of thing. And like to be commended as a martyr. And I was like, whoa, it's just not the kind of God that I worship, right? Exactly. Me either. I just don't have that God. Like, I don't, I don't know who he is. Like, I've never met that guy. So it's the, yeah, into this is really of asexual liberation, which is that solbacy and singleness are a gift of what a relief. Oh my gosh, you mean that I don't have to, like, I just kind of viewed it as like, well, I'm going to get into my twenties. And eventually someday I'll grow up and I will have to pay taxes and I'll have a job and I have to do adult things and I'll get married and have to have sex with them. And that's just, you know, just part of life paying bills and all these things. And then finding out via fandom, actually, that there was people out there who were like, no, you don't have to do that. And then I had these older women in my life, my mom's friends and my aunts and everything that they never have gotten married. They're, they're just very happy as single women. And I think realizing too that you don't have to prove yourself. Like, you know, you don't have to be single like because you're a none or because you're a career woman, are you just too busy? Are you traveled the world and did all these amazing things? And so I kind of felt this other pressure of like having these amazing, intelligent, high achieving single women. But I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to like make something of my life. I have to be someone to earn my singleness. I was like, well, maybe people don't think that at all. Like it married like 19 and no one says like in order to earn marriage, you really have to prove that you are the most self-sacrificing loving, giving person. There's no, no, it says that. So you just can have like 90, whatever it is. Like, yeah, like God gives us these, these relationship types all across the spectrum of none at all to all sorts of attractions to, you know, romantic attraction only and not sex or sexual attraction only and really more into the platonic life for, you know, whatever your your gift is, everybody has been gifted according to their own needs and abilities. And that's straight from my erromantic asexual Paul, right there. It's like, well, if you have to get married, I guess that's fine. But really, you should all be single and self-sacrificing me because I have my priorities in order. The world is coming and like, I gotta go preach to Jesus to everybody. So if you're gonna be distracted by sex, sure, I guess you have, you get married if you have to, but like, yeah, I am doing important things. So, you know, it's so funny because it's like, yeah, all these people who are putting Paul's words in the American 1950s, very white, you know, interpretation. But yeah, they're completely missing something that's right there playing at the text of him saying like, this is not ideal. But you know, it's a little bit of an extreme. There's both kinds of things. But ultimately, side B is about a theological conservative interpretation of the Bible that honestly, in my opinion, is not only very flawed, but does have the continuous from straight culture and conservative culture, idolatry, that there is a God that you are worshiping that is marriage and weddings and singleness straightness, you know, the sing, the single two married pipeline in your singleness, you need to adhere to all the rules of straightness in order to be either mixed orientation marriage or have some sort of, you know, monastic calling on your life to be a sacrifice, a visual reminder of sin in the world. That just, I don't see that. I don't, that just isn't who I think. And so when we examine these six clobber passages about the column, like so, feels like the Bible is very clear. And it's like, okay, well, it's very clear in six verses. I don't know if you know how many verses there are in the Bible, but there's a lot. The entire Bible. Look at how many times we talk about love, how many times we talk about caring for our neighbor and the stranger and the widows and children. And you know, all these things are actually pretty, you know, the Bible is clear. But what the Bible is not going to clear on is these six thought passages. And so they are used to justify queer occlusion because they are interpreted in very specific ways. And the conservatives love to say, you're not taking the Bible seriously. And you're twisting scripture to your whatever. And it's like actually like, I kind of see it the other way around that you guys are the ones that are taking things out of their historical integrity context. And putting them into your framework and your lens and your projections of modern culture. And that feels to me more unfaithful to a text than actually putting it back where it came from or so helped me. So yeah, I just, I don't see, I don't see the case for the club. I can't see how you would interpret them differently. But I think it's very, very difficult for me to hear, oh, well, God wanted me to be gay. And also these six-clober passages are interpreted as enforcing straightness. And that the only way to be is straight. And I just, yeah, they're not compatible to me. So I fall under side A, which there have been some conflicts, one particularly loud person, and then everybody else. But this has traditionally been defined side A as it doesn't factor in gender. So it's not like your gender doesn't keep you from your marriage and your partner's gender doesn't keep you from your marriage. Sex, who can be a pastor, who can, or clergy, you know, ordained, and so on and so on. You know, if you just stop factoring in the gender binary and evaluate, is this healthy, is this mature, is this Christ-like, is this God-honoring, by the actual things that Jesus gave to measure that by? And we have Paul as well. We've got our fruits of the spirit. We have our discernment like the barriens and the wisdom. You know, we've got hope, faith, and love, the greatest of these is love. You know, say there's a ton of things in the Bible that say, "Here are your ethics. It has to abide by this. If you are living a Christ-like lifestyle filled with the Holy Spirit, it's going to have goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." Like, it's just looks them all up. That's it. Like, we've got people that say, "Oh, you just don't have any limitations." Maxilicato quote of, "Well, what's next if we allow same-sex marriage than people might start marrying giraffes? It's just crazy." It's like, "No, people are not going to marry their pets or their zoo animals or whatever." And it's like, they say the same things about interracial marriage. And so, when you look at things like interracial marriage, when you look at things like giving women the right to initiate a divorce or have their own bank account or all these things that we've seen in development over the last century, even more recently, you know, in my lifetime, you look at those, well, you can get married, but it has to be, you have to wait till marriage, and you have to have it this way, and you have to be as straight as possible within your career marriage, and all these things. And we have to be respectable and dignified and fit in this tiny box. And it's like, all of that is just repeating. What if we allow interracial marriage? What if we allow women to have rights? What if what if what if, and it's like you just kind of go into this thing where it's like, if you're limiting stuff based on whether or not it's going to appeal to the normativity, we're just not going to get to liberation that God has for us. Jesus is over there going like, hello, what I wanted back over here. So we have a wide range of exactly specificity, as best as a society, what sexual ethics look like, what boundaries look like, what are your values and your relationship types and all that, but the gender of the people involved, the idea is that if you are affirming, the gender of the people involved is not relevant to whether you know, your relationship or get choice to whether you're trans or whether you're, you know, whatever you decide that you are called to be in the world, a pastor or a married or, you know, anything. Yeah. It shouldn't factor in. It should be about your character and how well you are exemplifying the Holy Spirit in your life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So do you still feel that you have a gift of celibacy? I think you said that on the previous podcast episode of Debbie. Yes, I love to talk about this because Evangelical is here. Oh, you have the gift of celibacy and it's like, you're putting like a little bow on something that I did not want to choose, but for me, it is a gift that I don't have to be married and I don't have to be in a sexual relationship. So it's not a calling as in like a vow of celibacy to resist temptation, a lifelong commitment, like poverty or silence or something. But to me, it's a call. It's a call into the wilderness of liberation. It says, okay, I do want you to get out of the idol of marriage and stop worshiping that and instead come worship me. It says, I don't force myself into celibacy. I don't have to, it's that I do not have to conform to the pattern of this world, which is straight match. It's a living out of singleness isn't about pleasing someone else or meeting God's standard. It's about God saying, hey, I have given this good gift to you. I really wish you would accept it. And me say, oh my gosh, that's such a relief. What a gift. I'm so blessed. I'm so blessed to be allowed to be celibate and single. But I reserve the right for my authentic self to change. So God might lead me into a relationship and he might do that tomorrow. Maybe, you know, it's like by the time I am 40, I might have been married to years. I don't know. Like, you know, it's all about following Jesus down the path of transformation and growth and surviving in your Holy Spirit filled identity. And that's being delightfully celibate, being delightfully single, wanting that. I'm content. That's totally fine with me. Like, there's a lot of things wrong with the world and wrong with, you know, things going on in my life. But being single and celibate is not one of them. Now, sure, would I be open to dating if I found the right girl? Yeah. But she'd have to be someone that really meets that need of being extraordinarily special and committed to being in that kind of relationship. Because it would have to outweigh something that is so good already. So it's like, you know, don't get into relationship unless it is somehow outweighing all of the happiness and, you know, blessings and of being celibate and single. And I mean, I think that probably is right. The people too is that, you know, we think the default is being in a relationship. But instead, what if you waited to get into relationship and tell you, and I say relationship, a shorthand for the culture's definition, we're all in relationships with our neighbors, our friends, our teachers, our co-workers, and, you know, whoever, that a romantic and sexual relationship when you decide to be a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a wife or spouse or whatever, that needs to outweigh all of these benefits of being able to live life on your own terms, just you and Jesus walking together in peace and in self-acceptance and your authenticity in knowing who you are in God and just being an independent person and belonging to yourself before you belong to it. So I think that that is a signpost of like really cool things that singleness and solbacy can bring to the church, which again are found heavily, not 100% that found a lot in the aromatic and asexual witness to the church. Yeah, you've definitely made it sound like a gift, like it that you've expressed it as a gift. And I think that's a really beautiful thing, especially for listeners who may feel the same way. I wish that I could have learned a bit more about seeing singleness as a gift when I was single and really struggling with it and not seeing it as a gift at all. So yeah, and it's always interesting and retrospect when you are, when you do get married or whatever and you look back and you go, yeah, I had a lot of freedom that is not the same now. It's just not the same thing. Yeah. You have other freedoms and other, you know, yeah, are started structured for couples and specifically to have one dedicated person and often it actually does not matter whether it's a romantic or sexual relationship, no one cares. It's more in the sense of like, hey, you need to get a medical test done because everyone needs this test done and it's going to require anesthesia. So just have your spouse bring you. And hey, you're going to need to have somebody, you know, come, come do this thing with you. Like you have to have a partner for this thing or, hey, if you're going to drop your car off, make sure that you have a friend or a partner or somebody who can pick you up and drive you home. Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, what if I don't have that? What if I don't have an emergency contact? What if I don't have somebody who is so far beyond that level of casual acquaintance or situational friendship, friendship of proximity, you know, church family, somebody that like genuinely is going to be invested in my life, I am sure for at least the next five to 10 to 20 years. Who do you put on your will or your legal documents or you're giving your social media password to somebody, giving your physical key to your apartment to someone? It's like, those are all things that it's like, that might have to be somebody that you know, you are sure because it's really awkward to ask for that key back. And so it's really awkward. You've got to have that commitment, that mutual investment of we've both spoken aloud, we've defined the relationship, that this is something special and some sort of partnership is happening here, whether it's queer platonic or romantic or sexual or traditionally heteronormative, whatever it is. So I think there's a lot of ways that we have to be living in community, but that we cannot fulfill that even on a survival level until we get out of this, I'm not on normativity of romantic and sexual partnerships, being the only thing that matters in your life, the only priority or the at least the highest priority over everyone else. So yeah. So moving to your deconstruction journey, did you experience a deconstruction journey as you said you were united Methodist, is that right? Which is more, it's like a Protestant delimination. I know that they've become very queer affirming, I go to it, United Methodist Church currently. So what has deconstruction looked like for you personally? Oh my goodness, so conquered. Okay, so I was born into a church that it was very easy for people to say, you should be a pastor someday, and I still get that to this day. I was like three and asking the pastor like, is God a boy or a girl? You know, the pastor in like, well, you should, you know, we don't know, that's, you know, God doesn't have a gender and you know, that's not really a thing that God does. And so, you know, growing up in an environment like that, that had that kind of acceptance or gender expansive language for God that in like the 1970s, we have it normalized to say she for God. That's totally fine. Now, is it in practice. No. So after we had a female assistant pastor at my church or associate pastor and who I really barely remember so so young when she loved I never had a female pastor in the UMC after that just because of circumstances and you know they're I tend to answer they do move around but it just didn't happen to me. So there are a lot of them and we had a female district superintendent just kind of the boss of a group of pastors, but, it just wasn't a key influence in my life to see a lot of faithful strong women. Now, granted there were some, I mean, that had really good mentors throughout my, you know, growing up years, but there was also a lot of the, hey, you are 16 and dating an 18-year-old. Are you going to follow him to college? Like did he give you a promise for him? And I was like, I'm 16. I don't know. It's like, I'm not yelling at anyone this, but I kind of feel more for him like my brother, like, because he was weird, you know, it was like, at some point this will start feeling good. The more we kiss, maybe the more that I will start feeling anything, because we're just teenagers who don't know what we're doing. We are inexperienced. No, you're gay. You're asexually your aromantic. So it's just had all of this baggage socially of, philosophically, we were pretty good and very open way to open, to be honest. And so there really wasn't a lot of defining what is our doctrine. We want to hold to that. Hey, no, you're not allowed to do this. There's no, there were no real like exclusion of the intolerant, you know, it was like, hey, we're going to listen to all these evangelicals and they call themselves Christians. So they must be good people. And all the, you know, it was like, there was no filtering of doctrine to say this is bad. And so when I encounter a lot of these evangelicals, especially as I went to Baylor to college, who's very large, very famous about this university, but more on the liberal side of things. And so I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is such a conservative school. Like I'm the most liberal person, like, oh my gosh, like I'm, I'm definitely on the left side of this university and things. But then I discovered, no, the people I thought were super conservative at Baylor are actually very far on the liberal side of the typical Christian university in America. And so that was a huge shock to me. And I was kind of in disbelief because we're using all the same words, we're using all the same terms. And so then I went to work for a Christian camp ministry running their magazine. And if you know, if you all have listened to Faith adjacent podcast with Aaron Moon, that was a coworker. So Aaron talked about her past work experience. That is also what I'm talking about here. But you know, it was a business. So I was doing it, you know, professional capacity. But then I was also looking for a church myself. And when I went to Methodist churches, both when I was at Baylor and when I was a church rep in Alabama, I just ended up not finding anything that had people who were, you know, my age, my demographic, like, it's just there wasn't a lot of it. It was a lot of personal drama. So it wasn't necessarily they were teaching their wrong things. They were teaching their right things. They had great theology. But the way that they live that out was petty and vindictive and a lot of gossip and a lot of, you know, making fun of people and things to appeal to normativity and particularly white cis straight normativity. And it just did not work for me. I wasn't finding anywhere that genuinely wanted me there. A question I eventually got to. I then moved to Chicago suburbs. Again, trying Methodist churches everywhere I go, every city I moved to, every 900 miles. And they asked me, so where is your husband? What does he do? I don't have a husband. Again, very much in this moment at the well thing of I don't have a husband. Yeah. And then like, well, like, so do you have kids with someone like you bringing your kids for the free child care? Like, you know, trying to figure out like why are you here? And I eventually was like, uh, Jesus, like, it was very like Sunday school answer, like a small child vacation by the tour. Like, uh, Jesus. Um, but, you know, like the heart behind it wasn't there. People were not going to these churches because they actually wanted to authentically, passionately, exuberantly live out their face. And you know where those people were, who were doing that? The evangelical churches. So they were eight. One of millennials. They were so so many, but having to go to each one and say, right, do you think women could be pastors? And they're like, well, you know, it depends on what you mean by pastor. And like, they can be in charge, but only with an under the permission of a man and leadership. And I don't know. That's like, what are you actually saying? Like, there was no clarity there. It was no like, yes, obviously. Is that who wouldn't? So that would be like, I'm just, I'm just trying to grapple with it because I'm Australian, so my experience is a little little different. But so I kind of go evangelical. Yes, I understand that there are a lot of evangelicals that don't allow women preachers, but there's also Pentecostal evangelicals that do. Uh-huh. So you were more in the spaces where there's, there's less Pentecostal and women in the latter. I would not necessarily see that. The churches that I was in would say they were heavily influenced by Hillsong heavily, heavily. Okay. So there were always women on stage. And in fact, I heard more women preach at these evangelical soft complimentarianists, what they call it churches that I ever did in the UMC because in the mainland, we are assigned a specific pastor and that is your pastor. So somewhere we had to grow is saying who we are, setting down our doctrine, saying, if you don't like it, please leave. There are a million other conservative churches you can join. We are a liberal church and this is who we are. We are going to stand for immigrants. We do not care what you think about it. We have women pastors and you cannot discriminate against them. That is not okay. And you know, so having to kind of set down these boundaries of this is what we believe and we have principles and we stand by them. Whereas I feel like all these evangelicals I was talking to or that these churches I was kind of in and out of throughout my 20s had much harder time. You know, they were very much in that we were raised originally only baptists are going to happen, only church or Christ are going to happen. I went to Oana and I know all these things. You know, all these I was raised and my beliefs are the only beliefs that count. Like you were not even a real Christian and I counted that a lot. And I was just like it was so bizarre being a Methodist. I knew that our whole deal was that our minds were really open because I had Catholic friends and Hindu friends and Buddhist friends and everybody and it was like, oh wow, it's really interesting. I'm like, well, we're Methodists. This is who we are. So I was aware of that. But also coming and seeing what the reality of what that looked like in evangelicals and how everything got so twisted, how everything was just so foreign to me that things that I was raised to think like, oh, this is normal. They would have called heresy and vice versa. I was kind of like, that isn't sound very biblical to me. That doesn't sound like Christianity. That sounds like another religion. And that is a very unpopular take to have whether you're talking to evangelicals or to ex-vanjal goals who are anti-independent. It's like actually, this doesn't sound anything like the Christianity I was raised with. This isn't real. And like, no, the only real Christians are people who are Christian nationalists and they hate everyone and you can't disagree with me because I experienced it. And I'm like, well, so did I. Like, why does my background not count? Like, when you look at like, who are the Christian politicians that represent Christianity and American politics? It's like, people aren't saying Kamala Harris and Tim Walls and AOC and like all of these people have been very vocal about their faith for a long time. Ralph Mourna, and like they're getting junior and you know, you look at all these like the religious left has always been here. We just aren't assholes about it. So we don't get counted. But you count as in the only real Christians are Southern Baptists or even Jogels or whatever. And then when you leave that, taking that with you and saying, all Christians are like what I was raised with and that I hate and that the Christians can't believe anything outside of this. And so it's just really weird coming into this very even jokal world and discourse and internet and politics and America. Because that was not at all what I knew Christianity was. And even Rachel Hutt Evans posted on her blog one time about like all these things that even Jogels genuinely believe about hell. Like they really believe people are going to hell. And I was like, I'm sorry, do you think that hell is an actual place? That's like a thing you can do is like going to hell in a literal sense. And she's like, yeah, they generally believe that. And I was like, I don't think so. No one actually believes it. Yeah. No, you know, like no, like we were literally taken through these haunted houses at Halloween to show us what the flames are. I was like, yeah, but it's like a metaphor, like a play. And she's like, no, it's not a plural. I genuinely think you could go that. It's just like, that doesn't make sense. Like they wouldn't do that. Like nobody would actually believe that. And so there was a lot of me having to be like, well, that's ridiculous. Nobody actually means that. And then say, no, they really do. They genuinely do. Like having to come to these realizations. Yeah, even in Australia, when you press Christians hot enough, they will tell you they believe in a literal hell. Absolutely. Yeah. It's so bizarre. Yeah. So that's a lot of the details. Yeah. A lot of the deconstructing for me is that either I thought I was being cautious and engaging in spaces with boundaries. And that is just not a thing. Like you're going to absorb cult dynamics if you were in a cult, even if you know it's a cult and you want to stay on the outside of it. But like if you hang out with them just because you want friends and that's where the cool kids go and all these sort of things you don't need lonely. You can absorb the cult dynamics like it's just It will absorb into your language It will absorb into who you are as a person and you start to make these intellectual compromises Because you know these are good people their people you eat lunch with and that would Fix your car and you drive them home and you know You have meals with them and things and your brain starts to kind of adjust Because we're highly adaptable people as humans got me this that way that's okay But like when we are surrounding ourselves with this it starts to kind of become like well They're not you know not bad. It's just like but then you look at the people they're harming or become one of the people They're harming or realize you're one of the people they're harming and go oh my god Like I cannot believe that I thought like well, you know everybody has been believes it's fine Like just don't get political. Just don't you know just don't talk about hard things. Let's just you know stay on the serving Once we start realizing like what do we mean by political and that means do I have a right to exist? As a human being and life full-freeness and human rights and dignity that everyone else has That doesn't sound political to me that sounds like Survival you know, yeah, yeah Basic human rights. Yeah Mm-hmm So you've had to deconstruct kind of political things and evangelical things that have that have slipped in through friendships and Going to evangelical churches and things and Yeah for me like there's a series of books written by an author named Lindsey Gibson and Morgan Palmer's is a great one to follow as well on Instagram who takes up that work But it's all very centered on parents. It's like you as an adult child of an emotionally immature parent And I was say I wasn't a child necessarily like that was not the limitation of this It was that my entire society community world was very emotionally immature And that was kind of what I had to deconstruct from coming out of methodism in a very moderate to conservative The most important thing about us is our reputation in society and whether or not we are country club members Like there was not a lot of Jesus in this But then I go to where there was a ton of Jesus, but it was just a fake billboard idol for marriage family straightness whiteness You know The really racist background and so I'm like yes, I love the pattern I love that when they sing about joy they mean it and they're so joyful and wow to throw myself into this whole hardly And I just could never find a place that fit for me there because I was you know when it came down to things that actually loved and believed and Feminism and you know queer people and all these things that I thought were sent to like love and belonging Which But I didn't really find that that was healthy or meaningful and a long-term Commitment kind of sense to a church. Yeah, so trying to wander between those two worlds But then I discovered that if you go to a healthy Theologically liberal church Go to a progressive church and not I was like the a lot of that's a whole everything But you know what I mean by that meaning like There are older women in my church who have been members of and leaders in the local democratic party since before my mother was born Like they they have been around these women have been fighting racism since like forever like they Yeah, they were teenagers and being discriminated against and segregated in schools and now they are talking as Elderly women about what that experience was like and how we can protect the voting rights act because they and their parents Had to actually live in this world before the civil rights here. So you know, it's just yeah Having to actually experience living in the margins with marginalized people But in a way that is so faithful and true to what is theologically home for me Like even going to other Made-line churches like if I said church, whatever that's a wonderful and I so cheer them on the UCC United Church of Christ here in my town had a lesbian pastor and I was like you guys are amazing But this isn't where I'm called to be where I need to be is this United Methodist Church that's going to a very hard time And I need to be one of the forces pushing it into inclusion love belonging Hospitality, you know that Jesus heart for things and so you've got figured out why am I here Go to a church that is affirming but does not have the money they need your time they need your energy They need your skills they need your presence like these older churches that are dying off that don't want to There's energy there still there's work left to do and they are just physically enable sometimes to do it or don't have enough people Don't have enough resources to have money. So you know, I think people think it's either Go to the church that already has everything figured out and doesn't really need you You're just there as an observer or stay in the conservative church and try to change it as a single person and a see A very conservative people and try to move that shit by like one person There's a thousand people at your church you cannot you and your three friends Cannot do that and especially if you're not allowed to talk about it So go to the church where you're allowed to talk about it and the heart is there and the head is there and the practical application Just really needs some help and they don't they don't care necessarily that you are a different gender or that you're you know your partner is you're same gender or anything like that But they don't understand how necessarily to put that into practice and to tell people about it and to welcome people in In a pragmatic actualable sense. They're like well We wish people knew they were here, but we don't know how to tell them about that or we don't know how to act We don't know how to speak about it. I want to support my trans grandson But I don't know what language to use what is correct? What does he need like and so I think that's just where a lot of Allies and queer Christians can be the most effective is coming and partnering with These progressive churches that are small and crumbling literally because we've got these You know 100-year-old buildings in your downtown area and you know often these places have been gentrified But also sometimes that the white flight is still kind of around So you might have a lot of racism cultures and ethnicities and financial Huge huge huge economic disparities within the same church So these places are places where you're going to experience a lot less homogeneity Than you would experience in a white evangelical mega church that claims to be Multiracial and diverse and all these things, but their culture is So so so rooted in this narrow definition of what evangelicalism is but at the same time pushing these more liberal churches to say We are progressive. We do not care what you think Join us and don't hinder us because the work is too urgent It's I just keep always come back that the marginalized people in our own community are hurting We cannot stop to argue about there. We have used the correct terminology or not for your conservative comfort We've got to go out and wear the need So that's kind of the deconstruction for me is that you know, it looks kind of the opposite direction in some ways But then in other ways it's also just very similar to some of these ex-menjalical problems too so Hmm. Yeah, I mean it sounds like you're in a place where You are helping people to really articulate what they believe So that is a bit more solid maybe because it's been a little very you said you used the word very open So yeah, I've only been in the United Methodist Church for four years So I'm just yeah China China kind of figure out even even what they what they believe But it's is a really progress the one that I go to is very progressive and I they actually are very I would say very solid about being progressive and You know taking a stand in what they believe like they every week we have lines like Um welcome to Green Street. We are in LGBTQ+ advocacy and you know They have like all these little spills that we just declare to the entire church every Sunday so that we know Recruit affirming where anti-racist various different things that yeah is super important. I think To have it defined and to No way you're headed Yeah I haven't a fanbantial like love is God's reigning attribute. Yes is the fan of Wesley in us theology And so not coming at it from a how far is too far what's allowed what's in the rules? What is the Bible say a real you know It's on a list of things we can agree with and how far can we go? Libby it's like no like we start from love. We're starting from love and then we are interpreting scripture through this lens of Tradition and sometimes the fruit of that teaches us not to do that thing But then sometimes it's we're doing this for a reason and then sometimes there's this reason Like a logic and science and data that the world is going to match up to if we are viewing the scripture in a correct way So it didn't even occur to me that faith and science would be in conflict and so I was really shocked when I was in my 20s and hearing people say like Well, you know faith and science that's a big deal for people leaving the church like why I just went to bail or with a gigantic science building that says in In me all things are made or whatever is in him all things are made We're just like you know the theology says the the why why did all this happen and science says the how and describes it and uh You know a way that we can convert or make sense of and so it just like there is not anything for me that says Oh, we're going to come up with Consistent well-founded data over decades and decades and decades of research that matches up with people's real lived experiences, that contradicts the actual heart of God and that we have to somehow preserve because we're finding that, for example, what causes suicidality, if that, if preventing suicide or preventing harm, is somehow in conflict with what God's laws demand of you, you have the wrong God because living water does not do that, and so we must be doing it wrong. So looking at it through tradition, reason, and the experience of the Holy Spirit in our lives, so people think it's like, "Oh, well, you're a personal experience." No, it's not just what you have seen. Like, "Well, I don't know any trans people, so they must not exist." Like, it's more about how has God moved in you? What is, where is the Holy Spirit showing you? He wants you to go. She wants you to go. It wants you to go. Yeah. That's what we're talking about. When we talk about tradition, reason, and experience is how we interpret scripture. We're not lying to ourselves and saying, "We don't interpret scripture, the Bible is clear." So we just have a different definition of things. Oh, I think your video is frozen. Can you hear me? I don't know where you left off. So, just talking about deconstruction and churches, UMC, all that. It's tough. I could remember the ASS line. I'm over it. I crashed. So my final question is, where does Jenna go from here? We're all very curious because I really listened to the interview from several years ago. We'd love to hear about your life now and where you're going. I can't imagine if I have as much growth between now and the next five years that I've had in the last five years, since I'll talk to me, I just can't imagine how great that would be because we have come so far as a society. We have come so far. Now granted, yes, at a national stage and an international stage, legally within all the restrictions and things, things are much more dire and increasingly so. But I think for myself in personal growth and for the awareness of asexuality, for the awareness of the fluidity of queer identity, for queer Christian visibility, that the things I am seeing this week as we talk about what is queerness and how expansive is it and what does it mean to say God's love is expansive as the universe he's creating constantly. I just think, gosh, that would be so cool if we continue on this trajectory of being more and more like the kingdom of heaven. And so for me personally, I am physically pretty settled in my city and my apartment, my job, my church, although we're going through a big transition as well with a new pastor. But spiritually, I'm learning about self-belonging. And so even as things change, I've moved all over the country, I've done all these things, but belonging to myself that wherever I am, I'm never really a stranger because I am there in my authenticity. And I'm living as my real self, not just chameleonating or trying to fit in. I think the late 30s are great time for this in life because I'm more externally secure and things like finances and career and identity and orientation labels. Whereas in my 20s, I was more of like, well, I kind of have to be whatever gets me a paycheck and my career kind of has to be whatever jobs are available to me. And my identity and orientation have to kind of be part of the compromises I make in that situation, especially if you're signing belief statements and even a global media world. Yeah. I thought as far as I could go in the evangelical media world, and then it became a problem. It was literally telling me. So now I can focus on living that I can have a mature internal belonging that leads to life and thriving instead of just avoiding harm and experiencing suffering and experiencing. And experiencing the little daily microaggressions and harm that comes from being part of a overall oppressive system. So, you know, it's just very mindfulness based. It's very not getting caught up and worrying about how others perceive you. It's managing your emotions and experiences instead of managing other people's emotions and experiences. So I can't change myself hyper thinking and hyper analysis. If I just said the right thing, then they would agree with me and you know, I can convert them to my point of view. It's very even local thinking of like we got to go convert all these people to the interracism or, you know, the affirming theology. If I just say it the right way, but being free is I can be myself and speak when the spirit leads me to speak and be quiet or ignore conversations that are not worthy of my time and attention. And also be free of my own insecurities to get out of that remuneration and focus on what other people need? Where am I wanted? Because if I'm useful, I belong, you know, they'll need me. They'll let me around. They can't afford to alienate me. And it's like, no, just if you show up as yourself putting empathy in the driver's seat is so much easier because you're not so consumed with your own belonging and disabled. You know, am I, am I too disabled? Am I too near divergent? Am I too queer? Am I too asexual? Can I belong here as a woman? What are your, what are your limits on me? Instead of thinking about, you know, if I'm not taking brain space being mentally criticized by myself and anticipating how others are mentally criticizing, I am actually free to care about other people. And I have brain space to see others in their pain and in their joy and celebrate or grief or be part of a community truly part of it because I'm not so busy worrying about how and why and in what ways they hate me or don't want me there or just tolerating me. So that's a big area of growth that I think is really important, especially for women in their mid to late 30s, but I think that we all have to go on that journey the earlier the better because really it's all about loving our neighbors as ourselves and loving God. We aren't really afraid to do any of those three things if we're so busy being afraid. Yeah, just be courageous and and going into a new chapter of my late 30s. Yeah, with the security that I can do more good in the world and for myself and in the kingdom. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you've said today and encouraging us to really just love ourselves and because that helps us to love others and treat others with respect and equality and such important things. Yeah, thank you. Just as a closing note, just remembering that it's not about your identity so much as it's about joining collective liberation. So we are all mutually harmed and affected by things like heteronomativity and a modern normativity and all of these things are talked about their systems. That's not based on your behavior or your identity or anything else, but we can all make choices even if we fit the perfectly normal stay at home mom Christian white wife and mother. You know, like you can fit all of these stereotypes of what is acceptable in society, but still engage in deeply disruptive Jesus like liberation that just lives so counter to the expectations of empire. And we all have the ability to make those choices. So yeah, it's not about you know adding people to the queer umbrella or it's not about you know who's the most marginalized or having some sort of oppression Olympics or something like that. It's about everyone benefiting from each other's gifts and wisdom and perspectives that we wouldn't get if we were tied up and well, you know, who's allowed in and who's allowed out. That's just yeah, not the way that God has for us. So yeah, just just join us join us in being part of the joy of God's kingdom here on earth and collective liberation because that's the kind of king that we're following. So it's a lot easier. You don't have to think about how far is too far what your identities allow you to say and not allow to say just being mutually responsible for each other and caring for each other and part of the family of God together. Yeah, beautiful. I can find my work at invisiblekakessociety.com. I have queer resources, asexuality information, all sorts of fun things for affirming theology to learn more. So you know, it's it's a lot easier to just hand people a you know a URL and not have to argue with people yourself. So definitely check out those resources at invisiblekakessociety and I'm also on substack over there to just replicate everything. And then social media. So you know, find me, join it with awesome. Thanks so much.