Gary Sinise: ‘The Hole In The Heart Is Always There’

Every day, animals across the country face abuse and neglect. And every day, the ASPCA shows up to rescue animals in crisis. But they can't do it alone. Visit ASPCA.org slash need. Become a donor today to provide the care and shelter these animals urgently need. And for a limited time, the ASPCA will send you a free gift as a special thank you. Welcome to All There Is. Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I'm glad you're here. My guest today is award-winning actor and philanthropist Gary Sinise. You likely know him from CSI New York or Apollo 13 or Forrest Gump. He's also a musician. And in 2011, he established the Gary Sinise Foundation to help support and advocate for veterans. Gary's son, McKenna Anthony Sinise, who was also known as Mac, was an avid drummer and worked with Gary at the foundation. Mac was diagnosed with a rare cancer called chordoma in 2018, the same year that Gary's wife, Moira Harris, was diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer. After treatment, Moira went into remission and remains cancer-free. But Mac's cancer spread. In 2023, he started working on some music he'd written in college but never finished. And over the following months, those efforts became an entire album called Resurrection and Revival, featuring Mac on harmonica with members of Gary's band. Mac died at the beginning of 2024 on January 5th, the same week his album went to press. He was just 33 years old. I spoke with Gary from his foundation headquarters in Nashville in April. Thank you so much for doing this. It's a pleasure to talk to you. It is my absolute pleasure. How has grief been for you? It's over two years now since we lost our son. It was a very, very difficult battle where he became more and more disabled. The cancer that he had was called chordoma. It's something that is very, very rare. It's a spine cancer. It will start in the base of the spine or the skull base right up here at the top of the spine. And it's a tumor that grows there. It's very possible that that tumor was there when he was born. And it grew very, very slowly. He was diagnosed when he was 27, but he was having pain in his tailbone for two or three years. Before that you were actually with your wife meeting with doctors because she had stage three breast cancer and she'd been going through chemo treatments and radiation treatments and you asked a doctor to take a look at your son because he was having some pain in his tailbone. I asked her spine surgeon if he would take a look at Mac and he put him in the scanner and he tells me Mac has a tumor and I'm sitting there with my wife talking about her. And now Mac has a tumor and it was very, very difficult. He had the first surgery in September of 2018 and then we were told that the cancer had come back and started to spread and grief changes as time goes on. I don't think that little phrase time heals all wounds is really appropriate because it doesn't really heal the wounds. What happens is you just learn. You manage them a little bit better as time goes on. The hole in the heart is always there, right? The missing loved one is forever there. And Mac is for both my wife and I. He's just with us every minute of the day where things were very, very fresh in the beginning and it was just, you know, you couldn't contain your emotions. Now it's those emotions will kind of jump up and surprise you. I was in church the other day and all of a sudden, bang, I just was picturing him sitting right next to me and it just overwhelmed me. And that's the type of thing that happens, isn't it? We just, we carry them with us always and they jump out and surprise us every once in a while. Do you feel Mac? Yes, yes. Very, very present. Because for me, I have continued to press on and do all kinds of things. That are related to my son, the music that I'd sent to you, all that music is very present because I continue to work on it. So for me, it's a little bit different because I'm kind of living with these various projects every day that are related to my son. What an incredible blessing, though, to have all the videos that you have and all the music you have and have rediscovered. Can you talk a little bit about you were going through his phone and stumble across? A whole trove of recordings, messages to you, videos, I understand that he actually made for you talking to the camera late at night in the hospital that you came across. I mean, that's incredible. I had no idea what I was going to discover, but after he died, you know, I just wanted to connect to him so badly that I don't even know what I was looking for necessarily. I just looked through like. His text messages, and so I found messages from people that had been sending him messages on on the day he died. Then I went into his photos and I found videos. He was very disabled by the cancer. He was confined to a hospital bed at home and late at night he just started recording things and they were messages or just thoughts that he was having. And, you know, Anderson, intellectually, you know. How serious everything is, and you're watching the cancer destroy his ability to do a lot of things that paralyzed him, and it was getting worse. But for me, I'm the dad who was the fighter next to him, fighting every minute to try to figure out what we could do next, trying my best to find drugs and find doctors who might have another idea. And all these different things. And and so I never wanted to have that sort of conversation with him where, well, Mac, if this if it goes like this, what do you want me to do about that? I didn't want to be thinking about the final days with him because I was always hopeful that we were going to find something. And I thought if I had that conversation with him, it would might signal to him that I was. I was. I was, you know. Giving up or something, and I never wanted to do that, and I didn't give up until the night before he died. I was still hopeful that we would find something. And and so him leaving messages on his phone of things that he had been thinking that he didn't necessarily have that talk and discuss with me was it was profound. In those messages, was was he talking about his death? He did not head on. He was practical and realistic about the fight that he was in, and he started thinking quite a bit about that, especially about 14 months before he died. He went into the hospital and he had to go into the ICU for 10 days, and so the doctors were talking to him very seriously when he was in the ICU about his body failing and they had talked to Mac privately. I was not there when they talked to me. I was not there when they talked to him about this, and I think that got his attention because I found something that he'd written and I found a videotape that he made where he talked about the time in the ICU when he thought that was the end. And I think that got his attention because I found something that he'd written and I found a videotape that he made where he talked about the time in the ICU when he thought that was the end. From that moment on, he started writing and making these videotape messages. Do you regret not having more more conversations with him? It's interesting that you asked me. Some part of me wishes that I had — in those last couple of days, I had had a deeper conversation with him. You know, was he scared? Did he know what was happening? Had he come to terms with everything? And then there's a part of me that is okay with it because that last night, it got to the point where he didn't want to take his medication, he didn't want to eat anything. And then there's a part of me that is okay with it because that last night, he didn't want to take his medication, he didn't want to eat anything. And he died the next day. And I think about that quite a bit, you know. Gosh. Just, you know, you get emotional about it. When I do think about wanting to talk to him and just to have a little more time with him, I think about him. When I do think about wanting to talk to him and just to have a little more time with him to see how he was feeling. But I know he was accepting. Mac was accepting of where things were, and the last year of his life was pretty remarkable in so many ways of what he accomplished. You'd mentioned once that there was a time toward the end when he was in the hospital and he was silent and you asked him what he was thinking about. - Yeah, and it was after his fifth spot spot. surgery that he was laying there in the hospital bed and I said what are you thinking about Mac and this is the only time he's he said anything like this to me and he said I'm thinking about death dad and that that sort of knocked me for a loop because I was not going to go there I'm in the fight with him and we are going to beat this and I could see that after five spine surgeries and radiation and cancer drugs and things he was starting to feel like he was in a battle that maybe he couldn't win and he was thinking about that and I just told him no more no more of that kind of thinking we're gonna you we're gonna get this we're gonna beat it and we never talked about that again he died on on January 5th 2024 yeah my dad actually died January 5th 1978 oh my gosh yeah and that day um excuse me I find that day on the calendar has always been very very difficult and and I'm sorry that that day may be difficult for you now it's it's a difficult day it's also my parents anniversary no kidding really yeah yeah it's weird anniversaries isn't it I remember the the first anniversary for Mac's death and we were getting a ton of messages from people who were very supportive through everything and they remembered it was like they remembered what we were going through on that day my dad died when I was 10 years old so it's been decades and so I'm the only one kind of in my life who remembers that day on the calendar as this significant day so I no longer get those reach outs of like hey thinking about you today which is totally understandable and I don't expect it but it's it's weird to have these days and I think everybody who's listening this probably has these days on their calendar which have huge significance for them and yet other people in their life have no idea that there's this sort of secret history on this day that that has any kind of meaning for me I work on New Year's Eve because I've always hated New Year's Eve because I remember being 10 years old on on New Year's Eve right before 1978 began and I remember watching the ball drop and it being this very kind of ominous feeling of I knew something terrible was going to happen my dad was in the hospital I didn't really understand it and he died five days later and so New Year's Eve has always been sort of this strange night of kind of sadness almost for me and I'm what I'm wondering does New Year's feel different to you in any way because January 5th is looming a bit because I had to call the ambulance on December 30th oh wow so I was with him in the hospital on on New Year's Eve and when you get to December 30th I started retracing every single minute of that day you know the year prior and what had happened and my wife had not been feeling well at all she had been really struggling with her her own health but on that day December 30th all of a sudden she woke up and she was feeling really good and she hadn't been going out doing anything and so she said she wanted to go to our daughter's house that day and once we got home Max nurse said she was concerned and so I didn't hesitate and called 9-1-1 right away and they put him in the ambulance on the 30th and I followed the ambulance so I was with him you know on December 31st New Year's Eve it was pretty neat Anderson because that final year of 2023 was in some ways one of the great years for Mac because in early 2023 he had this idea to go back and finish a piece of music that he'd written years ago in college and wasn't thinking about music at all because he was fighting cancer and all of a sudden he's kind of motivated by trying to put this music together and Mac he couldn't play drums anymore so he taught himself how to play harmonica and two weeks before he died that album went to press and he finished it he said to me dad I I think I want to make a hundred vinyl records and so just so I can give them to pals there there there it is right here so that that is resurrection and revival that's a picture of my grandfather and Max great great grandfather training in Yuma Arizona to go to World War One this picture was taken in that's incredible 1917 and he's about 17 years old there and he designed that album cover and uh it went to press the week that he he went into the hospital so he never actually got to hold this but he got to hear everything and he got to see all the videos and so it gave him such amazing joy I want to play Amazing Grace because my dad loved Amazing Grace and literally would cry every time Amazing Grace play we were in a restaurant in Mississippi once he was from Mississippi and there was a waitress going through the restaurant singing Amazing Grace and my dad just started weeping at the table and I was like eight I was like dad what is going on but this is just a little bit of of Mac on the harmonica beautiful foreign foreign foreign foreign i'll be right back with more from Gary before we get into the show here's something worth your time every day animals across the country face abuse neglect and cruelty and every day the ASPCA shows up they rescue animals in crisis and provide life-saving medical care they help animals recover and they give them the second chance they deserve but they can't do it alone every rescue every medical treatment every safe place to heal depends on people who choose to help if you'd like to be part of that work visit aspca.org need become a monthly donor today and you'll help support these life-saving rescue efforts and provide the care shelter and love these animals urgently need and for a limited time the ASPCA will send you a free gift as a special thank you again that's aspca.org need I'm Dr Sanjay Gupta host of the Chasing Life podcast we're going to talk about rethinking how we die how we think about death in the first place greatly informs how we live our guest is Dr BJ Miller he's a hospice and palliative care physician we are aging as a people this is a worldwide phenomenon that we are aging and therefore getting closer to the end of life on some level as a group it's not at all surprising that you'll see a revving up of interest services and also sort of anxiety that pushes us away from the subject and makes us cling to life listen to Chasing Life streaming now wherever you get your podcasts foreign foreign foreign um I love that he's paralyzed from the chest down kind of here he could still move his arms he couldn't move the fingers on his right hand like this after that fifth spine surgery it did some damage but he had the fingers so he could kind of hold hold the harmonica and he taught himself how to play and Amazing Grace was one of the first pieces as a dad I have a four-year-old and a six-year-old and my face lights up every time I think about my kids your entire face lights up when you talk about your son and the music and all he has given to you and also to the world through the music like literally you can see it in your face your love for your son it's so nice oh my gosh yeah I couldn't couldn't uh um couldn't couldn't love him more there were so many amazing blessings in that last year even though there were a lot of difficult things happening that year throughout all of it he was working on this music and it was lighting him up there's a video on his youtube channel where he's actually interviewed during one of the recording sessions well i actually want to play play that i want people to hear mac talking this is mac there were certain parts of of this whole journey that i i didn't think i was going to survive through even uh you know remotely resembling creativity or music or anything little did i you know kind of know that i was uh just through pushing through a certain stage i could realize oh i actually am capable of music so it just goes to show me that like i have to you know just um keep um you know keep moving forward because i never know what i'm capable of doing until i just actually try it yeah that's you helped make that possible for him that's mac yeah that and that was like i said anderson that was the whole experience for him that last year i mean we didn't know it was going to be his last year but things were not improving but the whole experience of what he's done for me has been a great experience for me and it's been a great experience for me in terms of working on this music that year was so beautiful in so many ways it's a sad year because it was his final year but we were we were blessed and he felt like he really did something special you know and he did because it led to two more records after the first first one because i started finding all this stuff is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others the blessings it's very easy to think about the the pain and the sadness and the loss because there's no escape from those memories and and all of that but there's always the silver linings and there's always the blessings through the battle we're all battling every day something right everybody if we keep our eye on the silver linings and the and mac was able to do that and our family was able to do that even while watching him get very very sick i mean you you saw him there he's got a that thing on his nose that's a big tumor that's a big chordoma on his nose he had another one here he had another one here they i mean they were popping out everywhere and we you couldn't avoid that you couldn't avoid seeing that and you couldn't avoid the pain of feeling what it must be like for mac to go through that yet there were a lot of things to be thankful for and to be grateful for and those blessings they they keep you going you got to hang on to those and you got to keep keep it in perspective through this veteran's work that i do at the gary sinise foundation which is extraordinary what you've done i mean we haven't talked about it but it's extraordinary thank you well through all that i have met so many broken families right and so many grieving fallen hero families you're never prepared you know because you don't want to you don't want to accept but in some ways i was seasoned maybe having watched so many families go through grief and loss and difficulties and trying to help them through and recognize that they are not alone and they're they're being remembered and not forgotten and that i learned quite a bit and it's it's helped me quite quite a lot having been around so many extraordinary families over the years i think that is one of the the blessings i have learned through grief is that none of us is alone in it it is this extraordinary bond which all of us share sadly either will share or do share and that helps me to know that i am not alone on this road and nor are you or anybody else i met a lot of fathers over the years who've lost sons and daughters and you know you never think that you would go through that yourself but it's all possible you know just we're human beings and this is what happens it's funny you said that this is what happens to humans i i have said that to myself over and over again the last couple of years and i find it comforting to know that what is happening to me has happened to every human that is in my life and i think that's what's happening to me and i think that's what's happening to every human that has ever lived and will happen to every human as long as humans live and as long as humans die and that pain or that sadness or that loss or that that longing to see that person again that never goes away it just you do manage it a bit better as time goes on i think i manage it pretty well but again like you and i were talking at the beginning of this conversation they will jump out at you at any moment and you you won't know it's coming and there it is and in the beginning our family was all crying together at the same time all the time and then as time went on each one of us would have our moment you know you just grab each other and help each other through it and that's what we got to do well gary thank you so much and for talking to us and for sharing mac with us and sharing his music as well and on january 5th from now on i will think of you and your family and think of mac and say a prayer yeah and i'll i'll think of your dad thank you thanks so much for having me anderson if you have thoughts you'd like to share about my conversation with gary you can leave as a comment on our grief community page at cnn.com all there is and if there's something you've learned in grief that would be helpful for others we'd love to hear from you leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805 on thursday september 24th i hope you join me at 9 15 p.m for my streaming show all there is live it's on every other thursday you can watch new episodes live on cnn.com all there is and it's free on our community page there for a week after it airs thanks so much for listening get ready for election night cnn is available to stream live now with an all-access subscription plus get exclusive content and interactive q and a's with cnn's journalists subscribe now visit cnn.com all access