Gary Numan: I Wasn't Good Enough When They Needed Me to Be

[BELL RINGING] Are you all right? Not really. What's the matter? Do you want me to call a therapist or an ambulance? Or a soldier? Because who have we gone on? On our podcast, that is. I'm ADHD. No, you're not. I'll do it all because I know you can't really speak. [LAUGHS] Very emotional right now with this one. OK, I'm going to give you all a clue. It rhymes with "Berry Human." [BELL RINGING] That's crap! I know. It's Gary Newman! It's only Gazzan Newman. It's too massive. I don't have the words. Right, well-- He is my hero, everyone. He is my hero. I mean, she's got many heroes. Him and Mitchell. To be honest, that-- But then Gary Newman loves Mitchell. Wait a minute, because some days it's really big hairy men like Tom Jones. Tom Jones is just like-- Not so hairy men like the pet mode. And-- Jason Donovan. Jason Donovan. Jason Donovan. Jason Donovan, right? OK. Yes, but I said this to you the other day when you can't be castigats to watch Mitchell in May. And you know, all your favourites are no-no. I said, "Midjul is my all-time favourite." Then Gary Newman. OK, well, that's fascinating. And Depeche-Mo. And don't tell Gary that he's number two, all right? No, but number one joint. Look, and-- What a wonderful human-- Sorry. What a wonderful human being he really is. Oh, that was brilliant, well done. [SINGING] My man was a spirit world. She absolutely believed my 100-- no, it was a big thing, wasn't it? I think at the turn of the 1920s, century, it was like everywhere, sayances, and all that started, I think. Did you ever miss anything? No, she claimed she saw Jesus at the end of the bed. Really? Some people see it. Jesus Christ himself worked. Stand in like that. And she also claimed that she was attacked by a pigmouth and it drank five points of her blood. Yeah, yeah. It's getting a bit harder. It really is, you know, even if he's throwing his own away. Jesus, yeah. Jesus, there's a lot of documented evidence for. Pigmouths, I don't think so. I've seen a painting of Jesus. I know what he looks like. Anyway, we don't believe in all that. I'm not spiritual and I'm not religious. It's hardcore eight years. But I do believe in ghosts. I've seen things in Evie. We've got a house in Scotland, which is haunted. Why didn't you do a program, Gary? Was it you? Yeah, earlier this year. Yeah. Celebrity helped my house. Yes. Yeah, forgot to tell you about it, man. I really did that to promote the house because we're going to rent you out. Erby, but is he sponsored by Erby and Bea? What have you seen? I haven't seen anything. Yeah, this is where it all falls down. OK, well, I had not the house. I saw something when I was younger. Right. When I was about 16. In fact, why I saw it? It's been on about three or four album covers. It really got to me. I was with my friend, Gary Robson. And we were going up to London to buy my first decent guitar. So I was on the train, underground train, Pig Dilly line. We used to sit on the end of the train because it was quieter. The middle carriage is busy. So when we got to Pig Dilly Circus, we're going to go out and show us we have new mood and guitar shops. In March. In March. Yeah. In March. So we were sort of at the end of the people getting off. So there were a few people behind us. Not many, just a group of girls as I remember. But we were sort of the last people off. There was a man in front of me, and then more people up there. So we're not looking at the signs. Exits, exes, wherever, whatever street. We're chatting to each other. We're really excited about we're going to be in a band together with that sort of stuff. And we get to the top of this particular escalator. There was several to get out of the station. The man in front of us goes around to the left. And we, without thinking about it, just went around to the left to follow him. It went about six feet. And then it stopped. It's all blocked off. Has been forever. But it was about six foot of this corridor before it's blocked off. So I've stopped and thought, that's weird. And Gary said, a lot to Gary. He said to me, were you following the old man? This is the man, the long gray coat, Fedora hat. So it dressed very much like the 40s, but not untypical. And I was happy. I was happy with it. I was happy with the story. I could have been-- Not to the third eye. Magician. And he disappeared. He just gone. He was gone, yeah. And the fact that we were both there and both saw it. Yeah. Has given sort of confirmation. Yeah, yeah. It's one of those things that over time you're going, I must have just been dating. You're new in men, but we were both there. And what doubly confirms it is that-- but the time it took-- they sort of used segments. It took us to question each other and think, that's weird. Look around for a door, which there wasn't no one. Then get frightened and run. We then co-up with the girls that were behind us. And I would took them. And there was no man. He had gone. So-- That's interesting. So I don't believe in ghosts. I just think-- I just don't-- I don't think there's any compelling evidence ever. It never really comes through. But I'll do two things. I'll say I'll try and be quick because we've got loads to do. When we were filming recently in Devon Cornwall for Christmas gone Fishing, I walked out onto this pier. And this old fisherman bloke came past me, right? And of course, it's just the end of the pier. He says, it's not a piece of stone jetty. It's not a fair. There's a fisherman's jetty and the harbour wall. And he walked past me and I was looking at one bit and seeing if I could see any fish. And then I looked up and he'd gone. I thought, what's he gone? I said, if I was more faithful, I would think that was a ghost because he just picked-- I'll look around the corner then couldn't see him. Couldn't see him anywhere. And I thought it only happened within 10, 15 seconds. But maybe it was longer because when I went back off the end of the harbour, there he was. He'd go right down the other end. But if I hadn't seen him, I would be saying what you were saying now that I'd be going, blinding, that guy disappeared. So that's my negative one now. There's one other-- again, when we were filming gone fishing, we were in a car. We were going to a restaurant and I was going to park the car. And I reversed the car and it went bang like that. We reversed into something. We both went, fuck what the fuck have we hit? Was it a butt person? But got out nothing. It's absolutely nothing there. And we both-- So this day-- not that long ago. So this day, if Bob and I are in the room and you asked us, we'd say we hit something, it was bizarre. Well, couldn't it have been a malfunction in the car? It could have been. But I've never had it before. Where a car just stops itself and it felt like impact. And it sounded like impact. So that was the weirdest. And that was the most supernatural experience. Oh no, I've got one more. I was night fishing for C-Trap. Many years ago, I might have had some help to stay awake if you know what I mean. And it might have been night free. No. No, I was walking back in the dark to our little caravan, with me and my mate's name. Because you fish at night for C-Trap. So it's scary. You know, it's sort of-- If you're not used to it, we were to an extent. It's a scary environment. Pitch black, my torch should broken. So I'm walking back in the absolute dark, not bothered, particularly. Except I get to the last fence before the caravan. I hear this. I'm thinking, Jesus Christ, it's a werewolf. I do. And I genuinely, I mean-- And I went, oh, it's all true, then. And I sort of accepted it. I went, I see. So I'm going to get my frog ripped out by a werewolf now. And I kind of went, well, you full white ass, you doubted it. And now you're going to get your ham up and-- And then the sheep that had coughed. No! And then it got earlier, and I saw what it was. But just in those seconds, it was really weird. I thought, it's all true. I'm going to get killed. And I sort of accepted, it was quite weird. I kind of went, oh, all right. Come on, then. Well, all right. I've got two more for you. Go on, then. [LAUGHTER] There's loads of others. But this is a Scottish house, no, right? This is one of the three small ones for me. My kids have seen things they might be lying. They might have been mistaken way to vessel. I won't get into that. But things that have happened to me directly, one particular visit, it was just me and Gemma, that were there. Where is this house? Is that-- Is something truss-ex-national park up near North of Edinburgh? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Gemma's got COVID. So she's in the room that we normally stay in, which is on the-- Of course, she's milking it again. She was milking it. [LAUGHTER] I didn't even think of it. Anyway, she's saying she's got COVID. So I've been up to the floor above it. There's three bedrooms on the floor above it and the bathroom at the end of it. I'm in the middle one. And then it's about two or three o'clock in the morning. And then I hear a couple talking next door, in the room next door. Now, the room next door is one of the most of the things that's happened, as we heard in the sleeves. And I heard that clear as a bell. And I bang on the wall, because I was sleepy thinking, what's that? And it stopped. Now, another thing. other time I'm in that same room I think Jim broke over again. It might be not it might be something else and and this time I did have the kids who were this and and this time that the I heard this very similar sort of thing it sounded like kids chatting away and being too loud so I'm angry at band and all again it stopped but now or two later it happens again I've banged all it stops and this time I texted and I say you know what the fuck are you doing you know it's three or four o'clock in morning trying to sleep up and I they texted me back to that we went to kitchen we've been down here for hours and they were they were in the kitchen so what was what was that thing you know thing it could have been them from the kitchen the noise filtering up through the old Scottish walls I and that I do it's a 13-birjorm house it's huge the kitchen is three floors away on the other end of the house it was really big okay so no right welcome to our podcast I forgot all about welcome to our podcast I made HD no you're not who have we got on today oh dear Minna now we've had let's have it right we've had we've had Rodney Williams we've had Alison Moye we've we've had John Lenin maybe not any but there's one part I'm gonna do my impersonation of him I'm trying to try to tell that's it yeah yeah it's even better than that it's Minna honestly to be honest I don't know how she's holding it together because the the guest we have on today is so Garfield Newman correct sorry OG original Gary you're the OG it's original galle it's only Gary Newman I'm surprised she's holding it together honestly I'm not the end of it since you agreed to come on Jesus really oh thank you yeah huge man since two years old when I first heard cars now I just made you feel old feel old and loved yeah much love we came to Q&A with you a few years back yeah you were there isn't it that was you was he was you were there yeah right come on do the stuff I want to do in front of him Darle we got a go on yeah or just start with the questions if you want and we can do that right so what we're going to do childhood right okay so you said that your parents superb couldn't have wanted any better yes but do you recall feeling and behaving markedly differently being an artist not knowing that in early childhood I was aware that I would do things that would annoy people or make the man agree or offend them like from early childhood even yeah well reasonably young not not very young no but certainly by the time I got to to um secondary school um it was for example one one day I went into class uh and I was a bit late and the class all lined up ready to go to assembly and so I threw my bag of cross the room so I could get into line quickly and did a pretty good job landed on my chair you know no harm done you know teacher says to me you know would you do that to your furniture at home which author was a really stupid question of course I wouldn't so I said of course I wouldn't I don't live on little wooden chairs I thought he thought I was being cocky but I wasn't I was just stating the fact yeah I know I wouldn't do it at home because we don't have chip furniture right right and so I got I got in trouble you know we had another I got expelled from that school eventually um went to another school um I wonder let they had come to studies and the teacher came in teacher was missing actually uh the headmaster headmistress came in and said um he was going to take over the lesson take up your maths books I put my hand up and say it's not a maths lesson it's a computer studies lesson she thought I'm being cocky and I got kind for that I got kind I got kind of my first day at the school I got sent to what age were you yeah I'm not sure if you know 15s and some of that and um yeah I went in I mean better it's my first day at this this school and and I got there early being keen and all that and there's all chairs at the back so I'm going to sat in the one uh I got kind for that because apparently they're for teachers only now yeah that's a bit much I think the more I got into trouble so the more I sort of enjoyed the fake that was getting into trouble and then I then you start to hand it to it a little bit and then you do get more difficult or more troublesome yeah yeah yeah with a rep with you because you feel you feel unfairly treated you know you're being told off and and punished for things which you thought was a to begin with was a simple question yeah and the more that happens the more you feel picked on a bit the more you the more we expect you lose for for teachers and your authority of the school and the more you start to kick up because of it yeah and so but the time you got to end of the third year I went to grammar school and before we got to end of the third year um like they made me do the third year twice not to do again which is I think essentially to humiliate you make you feel lesser yeah um and but you know what so I did a year they I was on report I used to have to take a sheet of paper to the the teacher at the end of every lesson he would say well they've been good or bad or not and you had to get good reports for so many weeks or months before they would you take you off that but you know it was just mad it the school was the grammar school had no real authority you know there was the worst thing that they would do was to give you headmaster detention or bod sign were used to call it and if he didn't go they'll just give it to you again because that was their ultimate punishment so you didn't go again and so it was just toothless and was that post diagnosis because you were diagnosed initially as autistic at 14 or 15? No no I was told that I was likely to be as burgers okay and it was a grammar school that actually got that underway they sent me to a local child psychiatrist that is in the 70s yeah it must have been yeah yeah I'm 158 now 72 73 yeah no this is before as I understand it starman don't go just done starman on top of the pops and you were diagnosed with asperger yeah I remember if I remember correctly at the asperger's the criteria for what was what became asperger's wasn't actually established until in the early 80s I think yeah and then it was folded into autism and it became part of the autism spectrum so when it was suggested to me this was before asperger's became asperger's that everybody knew yeah everybody knew it and so I've never been able to be that the thing is I went to this local child psychiatrist whose name I forget now he had no inhabit or spitting gobbies into a tissue and putting them right next to you it was horrible did it all the time every test not with him that's what he was doing all you're thinking about is yeah I got nothing out of that he referred me to he referred me to St Thomas's child psychiatrist unit I think it was called in London I'm used to go there I'm not sure how often maybe once a month once a month once a month every two weeks I can't remember me and my mom would go to me it was just a way of getting a school for a day I didn't think anything was wrong with me I thought the whole world was strange and I was a youngy normal person in it yeah you know I couldn't understand the way people reacted to me there wouldn't you mom and dancing well I don't know what my dad thought I don't remember ever talking to my much about it I talked to my dad about blokey stuff yeah yeah and my mom was a more I talked about my mom about emotional yeah yeah I remember when the lady said asperger this the lady that was up my doctor I can't remember a name now but I did find out about a year or two ago that she became quite famous because she was meditating children which wasn't really done yeah so that she put me on Nardial and Valleon for about a year to keep me calm L.O.B. I was very poor yeah this is 14 15 and some of that and but it was there that the asperger thing was mentioned so I'm I'm back into do all sorts of tests all the time I cue tests and all sorts of things and but I liked it that I quite like I know you test and think it's fun you know it's working up bad things yeah I just they should just giving you double maps yeah done with it oh I got I got extra maps at school I I yeah for different thing I I didn't want to do religious studies because I'm not religious and I wrote it as I said to the headmaster who said I was a worst pupil in the 21 years I said look I don't believe in all this so it's an unfair waste of my time so and you're hard you're so I you know can I not do religious studies because I don't believe in it yeah and um he said yeah right but they give you extra maps lessons instead so yeah yeah yeah yeah the asperger thing I mean I mean with my mom talking to this woman I don't really care much what they're talking about yeah I don't believe there's anything wrong with me. And that's when Asperger's was mentioned. So to me, it was almost, it never really registered that much. It was, it was a word that came out. I remember my mum on the way home, it seemed to be sort of quite offended by that. And I think pretty soon after that we stopped going. So I think, I don't think my mum really understood what it was. I think she saw it as kind of a, a bad mark and a parenting. Yeah. It took it to be that way. That way. A mum syndrome where parents, mothers weren't affectionate to their children. They became autistic. Yeah. Yeah. One of the great things. And you see, mum was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I thought I was the most special, most important person on the planet, as far as my mum and dad are concerned. Always, always have done. Yeah. So I'm similar really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, none of those things would have made sense. So I don't, I don't know if that's why she was founded by or, or what, but it was funny. Maybe because it seems like a, a judgment on parenting so much, especially mums for it. And maybe it's a Freudian thing that, you know, it was, it was always the, you know, the, the where did the mum go wrong? I've blamed the parents. Yeah. It is prevalent. Right. Refreedruate a mum syndrome. So whether your mum was aware of it at the time, I don't know, but that could have impacted because you do feel, oh my God, why is my child like this? It must be me. It's my fault. Yeah. Well, especially the mum's, the bad part of that, of that was, or my mum sort of not acknowledging it was, it was just then buried. Right. You know, we stopped going. It was not mentioned again. And I spent the next sort of 10, 15 years thinking I was just unlikable. Yeah. Apart from my mum and dad. Yeah. Because I, I found it very difficult to make friends. I felt very difficult to keep friends if I didn't, didn't make any. Yeah. I, I really struggled with small talk and things like that. So I wasn't very good at sort of engaging with people and making friends. Yeah. I never didn't have any, but I always, you didn't have any. And they would rotate because I'd, yeah, I'd upset one of them. I'd like to find someone else with me. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was my life up until I was, a music thing. Yeah. Happened, you know. And you know, right in cars, I was reading an interview with you. And I think you were talking about you wrote it something about avoiding getting beaten up and you feel safe as the boy in your car was feeling safe in your car because your autistic misunderstood, do you think, looking back was that part of it? No, I don't, I don't think it was that. I, I, I, I, I think it's born to be just being scared of being beaten up. You used to get beaten up a lot in the 70s. I mean, honestly, yeah. Yeah. How were you scared of getting beaten up particularly though? What was it? Just because you had a, that's what I'm saying. I just, I, I mean, when I was at school, it was, it was pretty violent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So every day, I always, yeah, always, yeah. Always get in trouble, probably still. We took out home from the grammar school before they expelled me. I, I had to go past another school called the Abbotsford, I think it was school. They didn't like grammar school kids. And they used to let us out 10 or 15 minutes early so we could get past them. And it wasn't enough. No, I would run. And yeah, come and I get as far as I could to try to get past Abbots when they came out. And sometimes I just went up going up into his house and the space. I was looking for big was houses to not be in chase bucket. So that was what it was like. Yeah. It was, yeah, it was, it was a, it was a, it was a, if you were different, you were going, well, even the matter if you were different, did it? You know, I mean, there was always fights. Yeah. You know, went a little bit later on in my later 10 years. We started to look different. Yeah. You know, if you're a bowie fan, you would have a well colored hair and things like that. But a lot of the herbs that slide bowie. A lot of the people who were doing the, who started the violence, loved bowie, which was kind of strange because there's this androgenous creature on top of the pops and a lot of the skinheads though, liking them. Well, liking the red guys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was me. Yeah. What about the angioleics and the antidepressants? Because you said you were prescribed them because you had to have dysregulated moments. You get the rage, smash things up. I think smash things up too much. But I used to get really angry really quick. Do you still get those intense emotionally dysregulated? Less now that I'm much, much older. I think age just calms you down in general, doesn't it? Really, foot from all sorts of things. Yeah. I know when the children were born, for example, I was much more fiery than I am now with them. Yeah. I've learned, and it's sad really because you're not good enough. I wasn't good enough when they needed me to be better. And so I've got much better with the kids now. I'm much calmer, much more able of putting up with the nonsense. Oh, that is nonsense now because they're older. Now I'm going to ask, because autistic dad, Gemma's ADHD and your three daughters are ADHDers? I'll go ADHD on one of them, ADD on one of them without hyperactyl good. Okay. And Raven is borderline personality disorder. When we start to mix. Yeah, it's an interesting mix really. Oh, when we first moved to America's up here about 2012, 2013. Now? 22. Wow. How has she taken that label? It just seems right there. She seemed very happy with it I'll take offense at that a lot because women are disproportionately labeled as BPD compared to men as well. And I just think it's quite sexist and inaccurate and unfair and a bit unhelpful. I mean, had you for some people it might be helpful to have the label to sort of understand. Yeah, I mean, I don't know her so I don't know if there's any trauma that was, you know, any that I was. It was for me. I mean, it was helpful for me when I, when I, and not when it was said to me initially, you know, I sort of fought with them for the beginning, but certainly much later when I sort of looked back into it again. And when I met Gem, I met Gemry 92 and Gemma's brother, it's, um, diagnosed as burgers. So she was very familiar with it. And, and, and saw it in me the, the day we met. Yeah. And so we started to talk about it and that, the whole thing resurfaced. And I, I found it helpful, you know, it's blamed a lot of things. It made me feel less ashamed of myself in some respects. You know, now I was able to learn that we're, we're driven and the borderline thing. I don't know whether it's helpful or not. You know, I, I really don't know, but I think sometimes knowing that there is, that you have something that makes you behave in a certain way can be helpful. Ma'am, sorry to be intrusive if and it might be completely irrelevant, but why would it be BPD and not complex trauma? Or is that? No idea, you know. I'm, I'm, I just write songs. Yeah. [laughs] Leave me alone. [laughs] ♪ I read songs that make the world sing ♪ I, I can't think of which. Shut up, let him finish. I just, I just remembered the, the reason that she gave for it, the psychiatrists that we don't use anymore, she has a different one now. The reason she gave for it was a, a band amendment syndrome or something. So because when I used to tour all the time when she was little, I mean, when she was born, I didn't tour a tour for two years because I wanted to see everything. Yeah. But then you know, it's the most my money comes from. So you got to start. Yeah. So then I would only do, they would do like weekend, long weekends and it would do like two weeks. I've got, it's gone back to silly now. I'm trying to change it back again, but they were, and when we went away, they stayed with my mum and dad and they were doped on, but apparently, according to that particular psychiatrist, all three of them, Raven in particular, really suffered from his abandonment. But abandonment issues and insecure attachments as a result of that does not mean a person is disordered. That's what I'm saying. There's a root cause and a different explanation that is not so negative. ADH-2 is a disorder that, right? Label does it mean that? Yeah. But that's why I mean, it doesn't like that definition. But then it's similar with you when you're saying, you know, you get frustrated when people view autism as a disability, I'm paraphrasing. Yes. But then a lot of positive, what we call like autism positive, autistic, get pissed off when people do not acknowledge it as a disability because it is disabling and I was wondering what you thought about that actually. I don't think something like ADHD, which I don't have, but very familiar with. I don't see how it can be seen as a disorder. It's just a particular way of interacting with the world and reacting to things that happen in a particular type of way. From what I can see of it, the same with Asperger's for me, the parts of it that are sort of to the left of normal is compensated for by more extreme things to the right of normal. And it gives as much as it takes. In my own experience, I believe I gain a lot more by being Asperger's and then what I give up by being Asperger's. So you dose it as a disability, but when positive autism say it is, where'd you stand on it? Well yeah, okay, it's you wouldn't take it away basically. It gives you more than it takes away. In my life does that the the amount of it I have if that's the right way of looking at it. Well no, that is a good qualification thing. What were the factors that enabled you to embrace it as opposed to go like for the likes of Simon Dowell, hey I've been it today if I could? What was in your life those protective factors that enabled us that made you go I love it, I love being autistic. There's a number of things really. The ability to be able to cop out mentalising motions is hugely beneficial to someone like me. Everything that we do, everything is judged. Everything is reviewed, every record you make, every show you do is reviewed people repushes out of you sometimes. Sometimes I think it's great, sometimes quite often they don't. And so everything you do is judged. It can be really really hurtful and demoralising and turn you to drink and drugs and it can be crushing. And so if you're able to take with that and just wrap it up and move it to one side it starts being an obstacle. In a way it becomes fuel. If you can actually move to one side and put it back into the burner, it can make you angry and more determined. So it's that way of being able to manipulate what is initially a very negative thing. It takes you maybe a 10 minutes, maybe a day if it's really bad. To just well be absolutely bothered by that and you can't stop thinking about it and you really want to write back and you do all those things. You don't do any of that. Give it a day and then just reshape it. Move it to one side. Turn it into fuel and move forward. You're listening out there, keyboard warriors. Do you know it's funny to say I don't tend not to read reviews. No, I don't know. My stuff. No. At all. I don't give a monkey's what some individual thinks over there if they're being hyper critical as sort of their opinion. But you know if you're doing a show in the audience in front of you, it's having a great time. It doesn't really matter what somebody over there is thinking. And most of the time you're the most hyper critical critic of your own work. You know that if you've delivered something as well as you should have. You don't really need somebody to point it out to you. I don't think. No, no. So I've got zero interest. They can have their opinion. Good luck to them. They don't have to laugh. They don't have to enjoy it. But I don't care. I think that's the opinion. Goodbye. I think that's the best way to do it, social media as well. I'm not on any side. You want it, man? I'm on it. It's vital, unfortunately, to let people, even though when you do shows, you know, every all the promoters you're talking about, they want to attach themselves to your Facebook page, you're like, so that you can do their job for them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just be annoying. But you know, it's, it's, I don't understand that these people that are on social media and just a like a slave to the feedback on it. You know, the people like what I just said, do people like, well, don't look at it. Why do you care what these people that you're never going to mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you care? What do you think? Did you like making it? Do you think it's a good song? Did you think it's a good show? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like to say you're usually your own stone is critic anyway. Yeah. So I think, I think with some people there, there is that sort of need for validation, isn't it? One other people say nice things about you. Maybe that's more of a younger person. Moving before you've made your mark or were you trying to make your mark, you want that. You need it to an extent then to. I used to read when I was first started, I used to read everything because it's just seen really important. And it was horrible. Yeah. Might make a bit. And that's with the Asperger's doing. I found it really, really useful. But as I've got older, I don't care. You know, what people say. I sometimes think maybe I'm hypersensitive to reviews. So I don't want to look at them. Just incase it. That he comes back and haunts me three times in the morning. Yeah. Even if you're like me and you're able to sort of push it to one side, they're still that day. Yeah. Where it's, oh. Yeah. I'm really wish I hadn't read that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, be social media, it's more than that, isn't it? Because they're not just commenting on your latest album. No, they're commenting. It becomes personal, vitriolic, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's just brutal. Yeah. It's mostly up a portal into some seriously miserable people. I don't know. It's genuine. There's a whole sub-level of people out there that just seem to like writing bad stuff because it makes them happy. I don't even think. I don't really mean it. They don't. No. I don't even think they mean what they say often or even have even seen the thing they're writing. Yeah. Yeah. I had, I had a show reviewed once ruthlessly horrible that didn't happen. It was cancelled. The show never happened. I'm then about a week later I read this review saying our shitter was what a rubbish letter was. I couldn't move. I looked terrible. Couldn't sing constantly at a show. It never happened. Did you tackle it with the person who wrote it? No. I think it's New Zealand though. I couldn't be. Oh my god New Zealand. No, I'm not gone. Yeah. So when that's what they want. Yeah. Yeah. If you write back and you're you can write back and the most real reason, intelligent argument. Yeah. They don't care. No. They're happy because you've written back in your answer. Yes. That's right. They want you to be upset. Yeah. Right. Yes. Focus. I've no idea where we are. We've done. I'm telling you what we've covered a lot of ground actually. We have. Oh yeah. You mentioned about struggling with the eye contact, social connection and expressing emotions which Gemma helps you a lot to navigate. What exactly does she do that helps? Well, it's less now because that's I've got older and we've been together a long time. I've learnt from her nudges to begin with. We've used say something like that. So I did the tape or something like that and she'd be sitting next to me. I would say something and I'd get a kick under the tape. I get that one. So the first thing is I know I said something wrong. All right. Now I can think about what I just said and I can't think of anything. I did wrong. So I go, what did I do? What did I do? And she say, you know, whatever it was. Yeah. And so, okay, okay. I'll remember. I won't do that again. And so over time you learn. One of the biggest lessons I've got was from my dad. I'd been in a, I was in an aired display team but used to fly world with her airplanes at a round of world for motion flight socks. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved it. I've been in it for about two years and my dad asked me what one of the other pilots in it did for a living. I had no idea. I said, I don't know. He said, how can you not know? Said, well, he's never told me. He said, well, why didn't you ask him? Said, well, no, this is my, my opinion was if he wanted me to know what he did for a living, he would have told me. And if I'm asking, I'm being intrusive. That's why my brain. Sorry. I'm at that just love and said, mate, that's conversation. So now I know when I meet somebody, I ask them what they do for a living. That's what you're supposed to do. So it's mechanical. It's not natural. Yeah. Yeah. But you're like, absolutely. Yeah, but watch it. I'd three or four seconds and I'm, yeah, yeah, yeah, same. I have a timing thing for, for eye contact. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, so the whole time we're talking, I'm counting. How many seconds do we three seconds and five? No more than five because it's too intense. I know it's hard to be a bit weird. Right. So you had the time at school, excluded. Do you find that, well, your children are older now, aren't they? None of them are at school. So did you have to do a lot of advocating for them as ADH deers? Well, they, they all went to a ward off school. Oh, wow. The, the, the stiner. Yeah, well, the ward off stiner. Yeah. And right up until high school, whether it sort of lets you down a bit, high school level. Yeah. The British stiner school that they, schools that they went to, I think, were better than American ones. They really stayed firm with no plastic toys, no technology, or the sort of thing. Yeah, because a lot of them do miss music and it just becomes nice and good. Yeah. But it was, it was great. And so they're very, very good understanding and looking for signs of different problems and helping kids along. And it's all about, you know, we're all very holistic. Yeah, it's just fantastic. I loved it. And it's so gentle and peaceful. And it's a little bit hippy-dippy, but I like, I like it, you know, I was a bit skeptical to begin with. Maybe we should do it all be a bit more hippy-dippy with that. Well, it was a lot of them. And it was, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm more than parent in that. They can do what they like and not get any consequences for it. You know, I'd be my clamp. And I can just approach you, but sometimes get the cat you know. Yeah, it's everyone's in the behind it. A well timed clown. Just nips everything in the bathroom. No, not only not for bed, 15, 20 years, I think. But he's made me sure so horrible. I need to ever do it but for a whole lot of times. Oh, it's gone for life. But no, I don't know if they are, you know, because I'm not. No, not that. Before I was getting lippy, you know, a mum gave me a cloud, I stopped being lippy. And I learned consequence. I've never given consequences and we have low issues. No, we don't. Oh, no, I mean, I got, yeah, funny, I've always got a couple but from my mum, not my dad's here. Implement, so hand. I was just hand on the back of the. You know, I think it was for going to Sunday school and I'll spend the thingy on some ice cream. You know, you put it in the thing. My sister grabs me up, I think. I'm so happy. Like, isn't it interesting, though? I don't know what the numbers are, because I can't remember, but I saw something other day that said that the amount of mental health issues in the current young generation is sort of off the charts compared to my generation. I know. Well, is there a connection between that and this soft parenting? It's not soft parenting, though, is it? It's relational parenting and also the advent of tech and its ubiquity and the pressure of social media. All of that has a massive impact on children's mental health. Also, pressure, we're more aware. It rates that are continuing to increase. And we're aware of mental health issues among our. Yeah, I mean, yeah, and this links with the overdiagnosis apparently of autism, ADHD and mental health issues. Right. Actually, we'll know, because they've always been there, but now there's awareness and diagnostics of improving et cetera. But there's no way, and I will argue this tool, that it's about soft parenting, because what does that even mean? Is that, do you mean permissive parenting, you know, hands off less a fair? That's different, that can be harmful. But when a parent is being relational, or when they're connecting before correcting, for example, there's no negativity in that. That's how I've always only ever done it. You know, we talk about that. I've never had that expression connecting before correcting. How about that? I use it a lot in my training. I mean, I can't do it as a teacher, a lecturer, a parent. I've never given punishments, detentions, none of it. Consequences, there are always going to be natural consequences to their choices. And that's for them to deal with, well, with us, you know, talking it through. So we seek solutions together, but it's never going to see over there, I'm banning that. You're not having that for a month or four, you know. I mean, I obviously didn't really work for you. Yeah, I did it, because you were expelled. That sort of, you know, sort of structured, old, fashion education system didn't really-- A school. Yeah. I mean, I'm surprised that as we were saying it in the '70s, that you were actually even identified as having that. Yeah. As a mother, just a nil week-id. Yeah. Well, I mean, to this thing, it was-- It was very, very early, though. Yeah. And I know, and I get that the woman, the doctor that we went to see in London from what I can gather was quite sort of progressive. Yeah. And the sort of the cutting edge of diagnosing of the surgeon, or being willing to. It was very different. But I-- that was-- was to say correction or connecting before correcting. What does that mean exactly? It just means, too, instead of diving for the punishment, it's like the iceberg of behavior. OK, you did that. But understanding the reasons why? There are so many reasons, one. I'm not going to go into them now, but addressing those reasons and thinking, OK, well, let's say, for example, Delilah got angry, spam the door goes in her room. I'll give her time to call off. I'll knock, you know, be respectful. Are you ready for a chat now? I want you to have time to call down. Yeah. What is it? Well, so-and-so said, this is school today. This didn't go my way. Do the-- OK, and you spam the door because I was feeling angry. I'm pissed off on whatever. OK, I get that. So what could we do differently next time? And then we write out a list of self-regs strats. She tells me what I could do, what will help her in that moment. Usually, we see it coming on. She'll take a blanket, sit on the grass outside, get some fresh air. We do deep breathing together. So these punishments, they're for that adult, right? They're to relieve your frustration. Well, you have to learn that, you know, there are consequences. There are always going to be consequences. You don't need to add it on top because what you're doing, then, the power shifts. Yeah, you're above them. They're down here and they know that actually that love is not conditional. You have to do this and this. Otherwise, so-and-so happens. Or why aren't you teaching them how to better self-regulate their emotions and their consequent behaviors? Why aren't we filling up their backpacks with these tools that they can then take with them throughout life? You're not going to get that when you're issuing punishments and hitting them. You're going to get through co-regulating, through finding out what's wrong, validate how they're feeling. That's great. All emotions are OK, but not all behaviors are. So what can we do in this moment before the rage kicks in, before the anger kicks in? And that's how I've always only ever operated. And it works because you're equipping them for life. The older they grow, the more these tools develop and evolve with them, because they know what they can do. They don't have to resort to hitting this, doing that lashing out, blah, blah. That's how I've always done it. And that's why I feel like I'm a shit parent. Well, you've clearly got a wicked relationship with your children. Yeah, but I've not been like that. See, that sort of thing, that level of understanding and getting over yourself before your act of things, I think is admirable. And I wasn't good at that. It was the very impressive speech, I see. It was fantastic. Yeah. But also, she's right. You've got a great-- your daughter is here with you now. That's gold, isn't it? You can spend time with your daughter in this world, for example. But I think I'm lucky in the sense that they've forgiven me a lot of my errors along the mistakes along the way. We're a hounded-- the only thing really that I think I've ever lost sleep over is worrying about how I've handled something with them, and not doing anything. Yeah, not connecting. So you think you get the young angry first. That's punishment. And then feeling bad about it. Yeah. My own sort of fiery nature and my own problems with frustrations if you're like with certain things would flare up before-- Yeah, and all say don't underestimate. And it bothered me. Yeah. So I think I'm very lucky in the sense that I've got an amazing relationship with all three of them. I just, you know, they're very forgiving and have accepted the fact that none of us are perfect. And I was learning how to be a dad as much as anything else. And no handbook is there really? No, if there is, it wasn't given to us. Was it? No, you know. Your handbook is your parents. Your handbook is what you grew up. Yeah. And if it worked, I thought I grew up a pretty nice person. You know, I think I'm a pretty nice person. I don't think I'm special in any way. But I think I've grown up decent. I don't steal or I don't hurt people. Yeah. I say horrible things unnecessarily. And so the way I was brought up seemed to have turned out fairly for all of my aspects and things, which isn't there for. It's, it seemed to be a good way of doing it. Yeah. You know, I, I, it worked. Because it worked. And so I, I have, I've had to learn that there are these new ways of thinking about it now, new ways of looking up ahead, behaving children and being there. But it's never bad, though. I mean, you know, I know, but just saying it's important. The, the words we use and how we frame the behaviors, because, you know, it's, it, it fuels how we then respond to them and, and, and behave around them. And it's difficult. I was trying to say like, you know, don't underestimate the power of you being autistic and then being ADHD. Because that's like, you know, young anyway. And you know, our buttons are going to get pressed in different ways. Yeah. Then say to a neurotypical person, you know, they, and I'll see that in how you and my parent, Delilah, for example, but they are so appreciative of having that do respect that they are equals and some would jump in, okay, they're not fucking equals, they're your children, but they are still worthy of equal respect. And they know when they're respected, we can have a dialogue, we talk things through and we change things for the better the next time. And then it just, it just grows, you know, it becomes this slow, more effect. So when we saw you at South Bank, you were speaking about your weird tapping systems, the OCD. And you tapped it out on your, on your black jeans and you were doing like, you tapped every finger 12 times, three lots of five, one other lot of five, then the middle finger, then a free twice, then five, 10, 11, 12, then five, six, seven. And I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And it was met with such a rapturous applaud. I like the way he said, black jeans, as if he's going to have any other color. Oh, you know, you're going to have a new one for five. Oh, shut up anyway. So, don't make him in other colors. So when was the last time you knocked that one out, so to speak, and ride those numbers, because I'm going to come back to that. What did that ritual give you? I used to, I used to try to practice having different number systems, not based on 10. And so it was when I was very, that a double maths. Yes, right. No, it's way before. for that. That was really little. And so I had there was a certain way, if you tapped eight times, you got an extra one for free. So an eight would automatically become a nine. And if you wanted to make, which is a one point, if you wanted to make, I think a 12 points, you would tap a cent amount and it, and it just so happened that you were able to tap your fingers and equal amount to make the right amount of taps to give you 25, three points. This is about seven, seven or eight. And so I used to do this. And then it was a problem in that once I started it, I had to finish it. I've learnt not to do that. Now I've got to look and then I stopped. See? Wow. How did you back? That took me years, years to be able to start it. How did you stop yourself? Just well power. Just knowing that this was a compulsion and they're bad. Yeah. And so I'm going to make myself stop. What was the initial trigger do you think for that tapping system? Oh, I don't know. I've got a whole load of them. I touched my lips in certain places and like that. As the points I do it. I know. That's the besometrical, does it? Yeah. I can see the system already. Yeah. I still do it now. If I'm driving along, if there's telegoth poles, I automatically count how many times my car will fit between each telegoth pole. I've got a whole range of different counting things. Or any of them protective. If I do this, then this won't happen. My youngest has that. My youngest has, if you treasuring the last ten stairs that me and Joe are going to die. I know apologies. It's been said a lot, but just for you because you've never met me, I'm going to tell you, and it's completely relevant. When I was about eight or nine, my number was four because it was symmetrical and it was safe, right? And I was like, that means Mum's not going to die. That's fine. Come on, say in a minute. Then I was watching Network 7. Do you remember that programme in the morning? Janet Streetport. I'm not sure it was a Sunday morning breakfast. Yeah, Janet. Was it her? Yeah. Just my luck, Gary. And it was a snippet I caught and it stuck in my brain. And they were talking about the Japanese number four representing dare. Oh my God, all this time I've been killing my mum. Not for two, you know, right? And so, and the Japanese number for prosperity, like longevity is eight. I was like, oh my God, I'll do everything eight times. So that would stop my dad from battering my mum. And neither were going to die. So it was a sick feeling in my gut. Like, I think that's what I was going to do. If I did everything in blocks of eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, eight, then she'll be safe. I swear to you, man. And I know you've heard it some in some, I'm sorry, sock on eight times off eight times. Then the right on off eight times in the room eight times out the door eight times, blink eight times. But in blocks of eight, obviously, you know, we kept battering my mum. Then he got imprisoned for heroin smuggling. Then he got deported. And I was, I was very physically sick as well because I couldn't function properly, right? I was eaten up by this OCD and vomiting, shivers, tight chest. And I'd always end up at the A&E. And no one could put it together even though she'd turn up with a lack eye and like arm in a sling. And it was just like, okay, slowly, slowly, I realised that the OCD needed to stop because it was anyway. So I was interested in like your story and how you managed to stop. Raven has a thing as an order. She will have a fairly complex order of what things that happen in a way they have to happen. Getting into the car. Yeah. There was an order. And it could be really awkward if you're late. Yeah. She's absolutely. But so we, I talked to her about that. And I said, it's perfectly okay to have an order. But can we have a different order if we're in a hurry? Okay. And then a longer order if we're not in a hurry. So if you can work out a, a hurry order, which has got like less items in it, how would that work? And she took to that straight line. Wow. Exactly the parent you said you didn't do it. You do it. Yeah. I think I smacked you. Yeah. Get in the car. I didn't really. Do you know the root cause of her doing that? No. No. No. There is a universal notion that if you don't do something right as a child, something bad will happen to your loved ones. But it, but yours went way beyond what because you're a child with no control. Yes. And your OCD perhaps it was similar for her at a young age. I don't know. It is you controlling something. And it can be the root of say disordered eating anorexia OCD is common in trauma survivors. And it's certainly common among autists and ADHDers. I mean, would you ever get a cessative ADHD? Not interested. I don't think there's a hint of ADHD. No, I'm not getting that vibe. No, no, no. But I can, I get your sort of rather measured asper just I can see it because do you know, do you know Gary reminds me of a little bit Chris Beckham? I mean, I've seen him talking and just just watching him talk. I go, oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this really weird. Who else on autism? I said to my kids the other day, I said, I think I've grown out of it now. I did. And they just laughed. So that's you. I think you ever as well. See, I still. Yeah. What does that mean? No, you better regulate the dysregulation. You're more self-aware and you can get a rain on it. Well, I think all the struggles, the behaviors that made me obviously aspergied when I was younger. Yeah. I honestly thought that I'd pretty much got rid of all that. You know, you couldn't tell any more. And they just thought that's much ridiculous thing I've ever said. You know, clearly said you can tell you're like that. You were as soon as walking to a room. Yeah. Yeah. I was almost offended. Oh, really awful. I got on top of it. Who else do you think might be autistic with your radar? Oh, you think he is. Well, it's difficult, isn't it? Because I'm not seeing you. This is a particular situation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's why I can do this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a to me to do something like this, chattelway easily. And it sort of makes the talk about Asperg and difficulty of communicating. I don't know that it seems like an absolute lie. Yeah. This is a very specific thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think probably the same for you. It's a very specific thing. Yeah. So you're not always going to be able to tell in this sort of situation. Yeah. I don't think. Maybe you can with me, but I don't think you can because I'm chatting away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. BBC, I think I don't struggle with small talk. I can do it. I was getting slightly bored sometimes. I do it so much. I can barely walk down the bloody street. You know, I'm in the same. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I sort of annoy myself because I'm actually quite good at it. Yeah. And if I'd loved the bag, right? Yeah. And it made on the chair and the teacher when would you do that? I'm like, oh, no, no, I'm very sorry. You know, just because I know the consequences. Yeah. So I don't think I would have gone, you know, I might have done the maths one though. Pretty maths books. Yeah. But it's I would. Yeah. I would have been I'll cook it. I would have said cocky though. Yeah. And I think I was more cocky playful then. This is wrong. Gemma is I mean, Gemma is gifted. So should interaction. A little bit less now. Because there's sort of menopause or thing. Yeah. And such going on. But um, and she seems to have lost a lot of clanking the menopause. Oh, bless. It was it was really bad. Right. For a while. For a while. For a little bit of a little extra bad for ADHD. Oh, right. Here we go. Pacific. Helmys. Well, I've tried to cop. I mean, I've obviously been with about 32, 33 years now. And and I've been with her when she's doing this amazing small talk with anybody. And maybe people love her within two minutes. Right. You know, you just got a fantastically likeable. Yeah. Perthnatch is interested in everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just gifted. Right. And so I've thought I'd just so want to be like that. Because I love it. It's so it's beautiful. You know. And um, and so I watched her and watched her and I tried to learn. I actually does it. And then I tried. And I just said to funny character. It really goes small till good. Hi, how are you? Yeah. It's just instantly creeping. Yeah. It doesn't work until I've got I've got three questions in me. And then I'm done. Yeah. See if they give me quick answers. Small talks over in a minute. Anyway, see you. Yeah. What do you do for living? Do you ever do kids? Yeah. It's just right. Right. About the weather. Right. Okay. Back to the flying. Having flown around the world. choreographed synchronized aerobatics and tall others to fight at the limits. What gives you the greatest thrill? Flying or performing? Flying. Oh wow. Oh, that's easy. Yeah. Absolutely. Easy. When you're flying, you're I haven't done it for a long time now. So I'm sort of out of it. Why not? When we moved to America in 2012, I got out of display flying, really when the children were coming along because it seemed most of the people that I knew that did it were killed. The first team I was in, I think five of the seven people ended up were killed in different accidents over time. And so I mean, you always think it's not going to happen to you. But realistically, it's quite likely to, you know, it's a dissonant. So when the children came along and also I realised that my brother started to do it. My brother became a near display pilot, filing, flying bombers and things like that and a little biplane. And I, my fear that I had when he was doing it was enormous. And that taught me how it must be for people, what you mean, my mum and dad, was going to be on my brother were both flying, they must have broken it. And then I realised that, you know, for Gemma, it's not a fun thing. You know, every time I go out the door to do that, which is pretty much every weekend, she's terrified, you know, that you're not going to come back. And, you know, she would be chatting to someone this particular weekend. Next weekend, she'd say, "Where is he?" "Oh, he got killed on Sunday." "He's gone, you know." "That's bringing me back to my mate, my, my, my, my, oh mate, you know, it's flogging the strat and I've worked with for years and great guitar player." And, you know, we were really solid mates. We're still in touch, although I don't see as much of him. He started by making model gliders and things like that and then flying. That's how he stopped started. Yeah. And then he started, he started doing them hang gliding. And he had a book. Hang gliding. And almost every chapter there would be picture, the late so-and-so. Yeah, the late so- Because so many of the pioneers, that's right. Thined. And that's what happened. When I first met German, she came to the house for the first time. And I don't have any, certainly, there. I didn't have any sort of musical awards on the other hand. All I did, just like showing off. But I didn't have loads of photographs of airplanes and my mates and my, my, my, my, my mates. And I sort of showed around the house and, and all the photographs. And, and the end of it, she said, you know, every single photograph you showed me, at least one person was dead in it. He said it wasn't one photograph you showed me where everybody's still alive. And it hadn't dawned on me until then. And so I thought, wow, it's pretty dangerous, you know. Anyway, I got out of it because the kids come along and it seemed too reckless of them to be doing when you got a family. And not only that, you know, the kids start going to go and sit up, and I feel whatever we can, watching that, they'll go off and come back again. You know, so I just thought, well, you know, the, the kids were everything to me and I wanted to spend time with them. And so I just, I sort of stopped and I got out of it. And, and then eventually I got, I was so out of it that I felt I wasn't good enough anymore, wasn't safe enough anymore. So, and so I just, I just, I just, nemi immigrated and I saw their plane. With the intention of getting back into it again at some point. But now I'm deaf. I'm 90% deaf and. Oh, you really? Yeah, hearing aids. So I can hear what you're doing. You're hearing aids on? Yeah, a lot of little things there. He's plugged that on Les Paul Columbus' scene 40 years ago, 50 years ago, Maxime and Volley Museums had done it, right? I used to be a bit of a naff one, right? But obviously, cars, our friends electric, mammoth classics, right? And you keep reinventing, they always sand you, the one with Skoparis, orchestra, listen to that every day at the gym. But do you ever tire ever so slightly of reprising those two tunes? Or is it never the same? They're the least exciting because you've done it so many times. In fact, on this last tour that I just did a few weeks back, that was a 40 for that, 45th anniversary of now called Telecom. Yeah, yeah. 1980. And I didn't do cars or our friends electric. There's not enough songs until the first to do a whole show. So there was like four at the end, which could be anything. Did you meet, Billy? Did you never met him? Did you never meet him? Talk to him. I was in Bini and the same room as him. Right. I don't know. Now, he had a problem with me. Did he? Yeah, he had, he got me taken off of his show once. No. Yeah, and he free me out of a room once, so yeah, now he's horrible, actually, because I was such a. I was a massive fan. Oh, that must have been horrible. Yeah. It was a bit rubbish, but you know, autism. No, no, no, no. No, yeah, yeah. No, I'd recorded a song called "I Die You Die" in 1980. Yeah, yeah. I'm a wicked. Recorded that film of that to go on a Kenny Everett Christmas special. And then the director of it, I think, was called David Mallett, who used to do Bowie's videos. And he said, Bowie's going to be here next Thursday doing film in something. Do you want to come along and watch it? So, fuck you now. Dream come true. Yeah. So I go along with friend of mine, Russell, was guitar player. And we're putting like this little side room, we just. So, I'm quite a little one, I'm at the back. I don't even, I don't even be famous 10 minutes. And I'm sort of Bob Gildoff was there, all the gaiters and other people, like, sort of, Celeb cupboard. Yeah. And then at the back, I'm trying to look over the shoulders, full of the me. And it's doing its thing, and I couldn't see much, but, you know, you're in the same room, is it? Yeah. And then it all starts, you know, as if it were, obviously a bit of a cuff-fuffle about something. And then David Malik came in and said, "By what you see, you don't want you, you got to get out." Of course, I got a friend now. And we'll show you that then. Fuck him, don't you, Joe. And then I got taken off the program. I wasn't on the special, he was. So, yeah, I was pretty. Could that mean was it jealousy in security? I don't know, I was really upset at the time. And then it made me, you know, the next day. Yeah. I thought, it took away all of that, um, here I was, yeah. Yeah, I think. Not because I was angry at all. It wasn't. Like this point, right? It just made me realise it was human. Yeah. And, you know, if you're human, then you're just like me. Yeah. So, therefore, it's not as special as I thought it was. Yeah, yeah. And now, when I look back in it, I understand that he had been massive. It wasn't going as well, in 1980. I've come along. I'm just telling you what, records news. Very briefly, you know, maybe two weeks. And so, I was. He probably saw me. There's a threat in the. Yeah, I don't know. I think it'd be a threat to Bawi, because he was Bawi. Yeah, but for that moment, I think there was a. Maybe, maybe. I don't know, but. A level of sort of insecurity in him, as his career wasn't quite as. Yeah, yes. what it had been, and he's probably panicking about that. I've come along, and I'm sort of the talk of the town for a moment. And I think he just reacted in that moment, reacted badly to it. Now, and that's when Mick Jagger said his thing, because he was Bawi's mate, and Rhinie, no said something, a bit shit. All of his mates sort of, like, is ganging up on me. I was really. Yeah. No, Wankers. That was that. Yeah. So, I know the person. At the time, it really bothered me, but soon after, you know, and it hasn't ever since. It's just a story. It's an interesting story to talk about now. And. But, you know, I've always tried, with my own career, is to not to be negative about anybody. You know, if you don't like something, just. Don't like it quietly. All right, what about achieving and maintaining good mental health? What do you do? Any tips? About two or three years ago, money for me is. comes and goes. You know, we have really good periods, and it loads of it. And you think you're wealthy, and then you have a year, where it's not so good, and suddenly you're broke again, and you're ringing up a dead man. Yeah, I'm a bit short, you know, at 60 odd years. It's like that. You know, I live beyond my means. Yeah. Oh, my wife lives beyond my name. No! Yeah. And so. I'm saying. It's. I'm always. I used to. Always you're worrying about money. And it would come out in really weird little ways. You know, I'd have a purge of chat and the kids for leaving the lights on. Oh, yeah. Yeah, pathetic, a lot of things like that. Every Friday, every Friday, every Friday, every Friday. And I would worry about writing songs, and, you know, they're good enough. And I've not been able to do with all of it. I still worry about making records. But as far as money and health, I had a real problem with worrying about my health when I've passed 50. I suddenly become really paranoid about getting sickness and dying and, you know, horrible end and all that sort of thing. My mum had cancer, my mum died of cancer, so you know, but anyway. And, um, and I just decided that it doesn't help to worry. And so I just don't. So I've become more sort of fatalistic about everything. You know, it will. I'm going to carry on leaving beyond my means. Ha ha ha! And when it runs out, it runs out. And then we just live differently. For a few months, you know, worry you're dying. If you don't, worry you're still dying. Yeah. Or is it the other way around? I can't remember. It's just made me so much happier. Right. But it's made my wife angry. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah. When we bought this house in Scotland, you know, we spent a small fortune doing it out. And she was all out for it to begin with. And there's the fund that we had allocated to it. It got less than that. She still has a good room of stress. And then it became my fault. And it wanted the house in the first place. Oh, wow! And the bloody ghost. And she said to me, "How can you not be worried?" "Well, I'm just not." You know, "I'm not." You know, if the money runs out, then it runs out. Go see it that. Do something different. Okay. You know, just, just, I, a lot of the things that you worry about, just, I'm probably not going to happen anyway. And if they do, probably might be as bad as you thought. And when it does happen, you will then have to find a solution for it, which you will. You'll find a solution for it. You know, we're not going to go to prison. You know, we're not going to die. because you can't finish the top floor. Yeah, and we just do it next year. Yeah. So I've learned not to worry, not to be bothered about little things. Yeah. And to just think positively and just think everything's going to work out. And enter life with that sort of mindset. It's all going to be good. I like you. You might as well. I might. You might as well. You might as well. You know what I mean? A lot of the anxiety about things are out of your realm of control as well. That's a big part of the album. Yeah. I used to regularly, I'm regular, I'm a bit over the top, but you know, two or three times a year, I would probably little sort of break down. I'll be screaming a shout in and crying and just got my soul in such a state. It's like everything just collapsed. But is it the autism? I don't think so. It might be, but I don't think so. I think it's just the bad life choices and, you know, having ended up with a lifestyle, which is difficult. And so you're constantly it's like the bedduck, you know, with a three on top. Yeah, yeah. Not really. Yeah. Well, I've stopped paddling like a nut bag. I know he's just drifting there. Just, just, just, just. It's cool. Yeah. Just last week, Dave Stewart said that AI is an unstoppable force and that musicians and other artists should bow to the inevitable and license their music to generative AI platforms. And that goes against pretty much what every other artist is saying, bear with. His actual words were, I'm not as anxious as other musicians about generative AI. In the right hands, just like my first drum machine, it should be wielded as a creative tool, but never as a total replacement for creativity. You've written several fucking awesome albums and songs that explore themes of machines, robots, and toys, particularly the sublime replicas, the pleasure principle and telecon, with key songs that deal with these themes, such as number one hit, when is it actually? Yes, our friend's electric. Which is about what? No, you must know. Do I? Were you in turn friends on or off? That's quite a lot to me. Really? There is, I don't know. Robot sex workers and friends look like humans, but they're actually like robots. So, yeah. Do you agree with Old Dave and would you license your music to generative AI platforms? No, I don't agree. And no, I wouldn't at the moment anyway. But the thing about AI from my point of view is I think when you're listening to a human, a song written by a human, a song by a human, you're listening to that person's experience, and that's why it resonates with people because it's a shared experience, whatever it might be, a love song, one of my silly things about robots, whatever. When you're listening to AI, no matter how beautiful the music is, and if it isn't already, it will be. It will be stunning. The artwork that I've seen, the artwork, is the most stunning artwork I've ever seen. They were right books, better than any other begilver ed, probably. The music would be amazing. But what you're listening to is a learned copy of a human experience. It's not real. And I think to begin with, the fascination for AI would dominate everything, and everybody will be willing to excuse the fact that it looks amazing and that I don't care about the human content. I think over time, if we're around long enough, that it would go full circle and people will want to go back to sharing a human experience rather than just brilliantly copied one. I don't use AI for anything. I don't need it to help me write letters. I think I write perfectly well. I certainly don't want it to write lyrics because that's a very essence of what song is about. It might be easier. It might be good to do it like that. That's right. But fuck it, I'm willing to spend a day or two writing a lyric that means something to me. And it's really important. And musically, although I struggle, I'm not worried all the time, whether it's good enough, it has to be mine. It's so spot, while we're coming out, I don't really collaborate very, very often. I like it to be my own. You know, sink or swim, good or bad. If it's going at my name and it has to be mine, I guess it would feel fake. I'm pretty sure that in a very, very short time, people will go to concerts to look at an artificial band. Like the Abba Voyager, which is amazing. It's extremely, absolutely fantastic. So there are going to be new bands coming along. I would imagine that technology can be used in other things. And you AI band, people will love it. You'll be able to go and see it. It will tour. Yes. And none of it will be real. This is truly amazing. There won't be a human involved. So I don't think, I don't think that's a good thing. I think you're right. There'll be a reaction. And you'll get a sort of punk, you know, some sort of punk explosion of basically simple, very communicative, or very, or fuck, like, funk. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, instantaneously live thing that will. You wrote the much love down in the park, which depicts that dystopian post-apocalyptic future, where humanities entertain by watching Android's matchmen perform violent and disturbing acts in a world where entertainment is centered on simulated violence. Was your decision to feature in the PS5 game sleeper wake as a gigantic floating head named hypnosis, made me giggle, and nod to down in the park, or were you trying to make a statement about this dystopian world we're living in? None of that. You offered a load of money and you thought, "Oh, I'll never know that." No, no, no, not at all. The man, one of the two men that made it is called Robin Fink, he's a guitar player in Nine-Hit Now. He's a mate of mine. And, um, I mean, I really well. And the reason I was asking about Ariel is that Robin's wife, Bianca, teaches Ariel. She was part of the. Oh, wow. So, it's a lady many, many years ago. She was teaching my kids, Erin's, we go to Robin's house, and Robin was on holiday with us in Costa Rica a few years back. When he very first talked about sleeper wake, and he showed us a very, very early sort of ideas for it before it became anything at all. So, my daughter Persia is the main protagonist on the game. She's the main voice, all the way through it. She looked and voiced acting for it. on it. Gemma is the protagonist's mum who's called Het, I think. And then he said "Do you want to go and do a few lines?" I went "Alright, that was fun!" Yeah, I saw only a snippet of it, and I was like "What that was in the Guardian, too" and it made me smile for all connections, but no. I couldn't bear enough. Right! Lastly, to add buttons of banishment and I have a feeling that, um, I know which one you're going to go for, if you had the opportunity to banish your Asperger's. Would you? Yes or no? Oh, of course. I knew he was going to go for that, but you can try it in them because they're quite good. Go on. I did it for a long time. No! No! No! No! No! It gets a rage on. Brilliant. Gary, thank you so much. So Garfield, you're newmen. Thank you very much. You've been a joy. Thank you very much. He was very nice, and I'll tell you what the poor bloke, you actually terrified him, actually making him a dawn you. I'm so happy, you're so manipulative. You're so manipulative. It's terrible. No, just a desperately loving fan. Oh, okay, fair play. But what did he say though? It did make me giggle. He said he'd rather be flying the plane upside down and be tagging me. Oh, I know the feeling. So Gary, I know the feeling. Thank you very much. We've been our extraordinary guests, so Garfield, Newman, and you, Dr. Minnetjunk, by our MBA, and me, the award-winning genius of comedy, Paul Whitehouse. [BLANK_AUDIO]