I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now! Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no official designation here at Spotify. Chris Ryan is a surprise surprise, traveling to Sprite Country bars. I think he's calling it a listening tour. He hasn't really announced anything yet, but he is connecting with voters in the Midwest. Very happy to have you here. We have a good show today. It's not just going to be me speaking directly to you in camera, I promise. I'm going to talk for a few minutes. Chris is going to join me somehow through the magic of time travel, aka we recorded it earlier this week to talk about this penultimate episode of Widow's Bay, which I think is both of our favorite show of the year. And then at the end of the podcast, I will be joined for my yearly, I don't take it for granted. My yearly conversation with the great Gail Simmons judge executive producer of Top Chef. That conversation hasn't happened yet, so again, miracle of podcast time travel, but I'm imagine it's going to be a good one. And we will talk about fully spoiling the just concluded season 23 in Carolinas. So housekeeping, something I am famously bad at. You can email us the
[email protected], say whatever you want. I do not have access to that email, nor do I want it. You can also of course find us on Instagram at the watch, oh, I always get it wrong. It's the watch, the watch pod underscore underscore, yeah, classic. Yeah. Again, the watch pod was taken by a account that reviews watches. See, okay, that does seem inevitable to me. Yeah. Do you think we get any crossover with the watch community? I don't personally wear one. I think we should try to get a sponsorship going a little roly. Do you think we can get a Rolex subscription guy? This is put it out there. You never know. Very, very optimistic. Now we are on the subject of house cleaning. One small thing, you guys know this about Chris again, and this is what makes him an authentic candidate, almost authentic enough to run for Senate in Maine. He does not like to engage with the replies and the reply guys. He's just like the take is clean, the delivery is pure. We move on to the next one. I am not that impervious. And when I get something wrong, I do like to admit it. So two things. Last week, I believe Chris had a really fun game where he pitched the idea that we would quote, unquote, star city other television shows, which is to say that we would just spontaneously, I'm sorry. No, he did it as homework. I spontaneously did it. Alternate version slash spin-offs of beloved TV shows that looked at things from the other perspective. I was very, very pleased with my final suggestion, which was a show set in the Madman universe based on the quote, other Jewish firm that the that Rachel, the department store air and the pilot should have been seeking business from, I didn't, I fumbled basically. I thought it was a good idea and I fumbled the ball at the one yard line long time watch listener Jonathan zoomed in to say mad mench was right there right there waiting for me. And I do feel like that's just a bad look for me and I will continue to get better every day. Second thing, William B Davis, the Canadian actor who plays the cigarette smoking man on the ex files. The show we talked about last week and frankly, I'm ready to talk about almost any time. Still alive, still alive, 88 years young, I buried the man last week guys, I'm really sorry. I conflated the actor with the man who smoked cigarettes on television for a decade. So you understand my error, but I do apologize to Mr Davis. I hope he's thriving today. I also hope that he's watching the NBA finals. I don't know if anyone else in this room has been watching, but the next game last night was like the best TV I've seen this year. I don't clip that because our widow's big content is just going wild right now. And I don't ever want to be noticed someone who's inconsistent in his fandom, but that was an incredible, that was incredible television. Last few things of notes to go through slow horses returns season six September 16th of this year. This is really one of the only constants in this madhouse that we call contemporary television and entertainment. I kind of love the flex here. This is all they released. Apple said that it was coming back, but we all knew was coming back. This show puts a trailer for the next season at the end of the previous season's finale. Let's see the pit do that. This is their plot synopsis for their sixth season returning show. The slow horses are on the run as Diana Taviner emboils them all in a fatally high stakes game of retaliation and revenge to which I add, is the slow horses PR person the easiest cushy as a job in Hollywood literally cut and paste cut and paste. Kaya has there been a season of slow horses that that could not apply to you? Um, no, I, I've never really watched slow horses, but I that that was summary just kind of gave me the gist of it. I think is not what they do every season. Yeah. I mean, I think maybe the key is that they're all on the run. Sometimes they amble. They're slow. Sometimes they walk. Sometimes they stumble, but they are always embroiled in a fatally high stakes game of retaliation and revenge. So business is usual and people will tune in to, and again, I don't know how you feel about this. Kaya, but a very exciting new show announcement, at least as far as I'm concerned, uh, this week or since our last recording, Tucci and great Britain, oh, Tucci in great Britain. Now again, like the slow horses PR blurb, it's all right there in the title. Uh, we rarely talk because of Chris's editorial iron fist. We rarely talk about the perverse pleasures of Tucci in Italy, or his previous show, which was just like Tucci touches them all or whatever it was called, but it was basically the same thing. Wow. So the title is really Tucci in great Britain. The title, oh, he thought I was kidding. No, I, yeah, I thought no, no, no, no, no, it is called Tucci in great Britain. And long time Tucci heads know that Stanley has lived in London for quite some time with his wife, um, Felicity Blunt sister of Emily Blunt. But I really, really enjoy his sour pus social media content where he just sort of idly chops things and throws them in incredibly expensive pans and his incredibly expensive and beautiful kitchen in London and kind of complains about the weather. And as someone who, not to the degree that Stanley Tucci lives in great Britain, but someone who has spent time there, I am ready for Stanley Tucci to show the world about the great food tradition of a country that is unfairly aligned. I'm nodding vigorously. So do you, I do like Tucci in Italy, or do you just like Tucci comma Italy, like you were fine with those things? I do. Yeah. I, I never sat down and watched an episode of Tucci in Italy, but I love Stanley Tucci's Instagram content. Yes. And I'm in support of all things Tucci. And I thought he was great and double or is proud of too. Which by the way, I think maybe he's on streaming already. Sure. So now I can, I can watch it. My kids raised me to the box, raised me to the multiplex to see it. The other thing about the Tucci story that I love is I am all for and have long been all for celebrities doing lifestyle boondoggles. I still mourn. Do you remember the show The Wine Show with Matthew Reese and Matthew Good? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where two of the most charming British actors alive just convinced major corporations to pay for them to drink wine. Was that his boat involved in that? In the sense that that's another boondoggle. I don't remember if his boat actually played a role because the show I think they were traversing wine regions in Europe. It sounds like a great gig if you can get paid to do it. What a charming guy. Anyway, unrelated, but I'm happy when people use their powers for selfishness in addition to good. Last thing. Okay. So Kai, I don't mean to put you on the spot here and you are off camera, which I apologize for, but you are our youth correspondent. And I wondered if you'd ever heard of a phenomenon called the amazing digital circus. Now, okay, so maybe some people, some daddington's and momdington's are familiar with this, but the amazing digital circus is a web series that premiered on YouTube in 2023 and then got upstream to Netflix. And I am only tangentially aware of it and maybe even mentioned it in passing ones because like with many of these things, my children, especially my younger daughter, got really, really into it. And what I would see as I walked past was essentially a screensaver nightmare because it is, to my eyes, like extremely intense and kind of ugly. I don't know if that's partially the point, but basically it is a very, very noisy, visually and otherwise web series about humans or human consciousnesses that are wake up trapped in this amazing digital circus, like, hellscape, where they are in these bodies that are sold on t-shirts and hot topic now. But genuinely, like one person is a rag doll named Ragatha and one person is a crazy purple bunny named Jacks and they have these adventures that are also kind of torture being led by a ringleader named Kane who is a, like, talking, like, he's basically dentures with eyeballs in his mouth. It was nine episodes, Fathom Entertainment released the final episode, much awaited final episode into movie theaters paired with the eighth episode. I think people are like, oh, that's nice, like, the fandom will show up, maybe it'll make $10 million. It made $26 million in the box office for something that's going to be on Netflix, I think, next week. And I went to the theater and I saw it and I can't lie to you. There was a moment when I got the popcorn and I went over to the whole bar in the American movie theater called McEathens with your children. Okay. Thank you for asking that. 100% with my children. one.
Excitedly, one, grudgingly. - Great. - I took a picture of my children before the movie started, and one child was wearing a Jack sweatshirt excitedly, and my other child looked like the unibomber. - Okay. - Because she had sunglasses on and was texting furiously, and really was only there for the juniors. But I can't lie, there was a moment when I was in the theater being like, "I love the old multiplex. Can't wait to see a movie." Oh right, I'm going to be seeing 80 minutes of YouTube animation. - Right. - But I have to say, I was shocked by this thing, and not in a bad way. I was pretty riveted. This is not me talking about euphoria exactly, but I can't say that I felt particularly lost having missed the first seven installments of the amazing digital circus, but what I was really struck by, and I'm trying, your question was very valedciate because I'm trying to get the big picture of Sean Fennese to see this. - Okay. - And he asked if he could bring his much younger child to it. - Right. - Okay, assured him he could not, which does create the possibility. There are a lot of swears in it. It does create the possibility of, maybe it's already happened, of Sean, hopefully not wearing a trench coat, going to see this movie alone. But what was crazy about it, is that it is, yes, it is incredibly noisy. It is credibly in your face, and it's pulling these references from extreme TikTok fan edits/looney tunes cartoons. But it was also simultaneously the single most earnest and emo piece of content that I have seen in quite some time. - Okay. - Almost like punch you in the stomach with its sincerity and intensity, and I did a little digging into it, and it does make sense. This shows the brainchild of a 31-year-old content creator, animator, composer, who goes by the name of Gooseworks, and it is extremely gamer-coded, but it is also extremely, what's the word I would use? Well, it's gamer-coded, it's incredibly queer-friendly, and it's very close to therapy. And the energy of it honestly reminded me of when I was interviewing Dashboard Confessional fans in 2002, except now there is no more amateurism about it. Now all of the energy about, like, I've been rejected by society, and it's very hard for me to connect, but that's all I want to do is connect, but nothing will ever accept me. But with the professionalism of, I will pour all of this into something that is going to make the Fathom Entertainment Company untold millions on a weekend in June. So, fascinating content. This is my report from Youth Island. Where, and where are we on the scale of the kids are all right after watching this? Thank you for asking that question too, because I actually, I mean, my younger daughter was a pre-apologizing. (laughing) That's nice. She was also very worried going in because Jack's the rabbit is her favorite character, and she was pretty scared that he was going to abstract, because just to give you guys the full story about what happens here, the longer you were in this digital hellscape, the more unhinged you become from who you were, who you believe yourself to have been, and reality, and at a certain point, some of the previous characters, including a clown, and I believe a bear, abstracted, which means they turn into, like, kind of weird nightmare monsters with rainbow eyes, and they're lost, they've lost themselves. So she was worried Jack's was going to abstract. I won't spoil. I will say that we get Jack's backstory, which is so dark, so dark, and involves pushing his mother and becoming unhoused, and then Pommini, who is kind of the heroine, travels through his psyche, and there are shades of inside out, and there's also shades of severance, and it's this absolute blender of insanity, and I'm really glad Chris is pressing the flesh with voters, because he would not care for this. - No, Chris would have cut you off five minutes ago. - How would Chris have been able to segue from this into a take on the lioness season three trailer? - I don't even think he would have segueed. I think he would have just said, and now lioness. - Can I ask you guys a question since he's not here? - Yeah. - Does he have a mute button for me? - No, but I mean-- - Because he had access to that. - I am, I'm the only one with access to mute, but I can cut your mic at any time. - Thank you, Kaya. On that note, having delved into the world of culture that was frankly eye-opening and a little bit terrifying, but yeah, that's actually not true. Kind of ultimately wholesome. We should probably get into some more wholesome content. So to recap, Chris and I are going to, Chris is gonna magically appear. I have a button that can do that. We're gonna talk about Widow's Bay penultimate episode, episode nine, emergency shelter. All spoilers for that. Obviously the episode premiered the other day, and then straight out of that conversation, we will go into my interview with Gail Simmons, discussing, spoiling Top Chef Season 23. I look forward to you enjoying both of those things. - This episode is brought to you by Fandool Predicts. You can predict the Summer Soccer Showcase action all the way to the final match with Fandool Predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus from the opening game to the final whistle. Stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your $25 bonus on Fandool Predicts. Go to fandool.com/predicts to sign up. That's fandool.com/predicts to get your $25 bonus disclaimer, offered by Fandool Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 and over, restrictions apply, see terms at fandool.com/predicts/bonus-offer-terms. Here we are, Andy. You have presumably done the beginning of this show. We are dressed suspiciously like we were on Monday. And it's laundry week. - We are here to talk about the penultimate episode of season one of Woodo's Bay. This one is called emergency shelter. Hero and Mariah is back behind the camera for these last two episodes. Tom, Patricia Wick and Rosemary, try to find out the lineage of Richard Warren as a storm shuts down the island, sending everyone into shelters. Everyone, bar one, very important resident. I wanna talk to you about a pretty significant tonal shift that occurs in this episode. - I'm glad, I thought you were gonna talk to me about accountability when I dictated exactly what was going to happen. And I was, I got you 80% of the way there. And I was wrong. - When did you do that last week? - Yeah, two weeks, no two weeks ago. And I was like, - This is one of the children escaped from the boat and swam back and had a child. - You were very good about that. I was wrong about who the seed was. - Yeah, you were worried it was Evan? - I wasn't worried, I was enthused. - Okay, but yes, I thought it was Evan. - Turns out it's not Evan, it's Ruth, the beloved yet, you know, comical assistant who only works half days. - Sorry, but tonal shift. - Tonal shift in this series. So we have talked about the horror comedy balance that Katie Dippel and her team has struck this season. It's been, honestly, like one of the delights of TV over the last couple of years to watch them kind of figure out how to mix funny with scary. And then jump from subgenre to subgenre and homage to homage from episode to episode. This one felt a little bit more like a moral quandary, you know, I guess this is basically like the, what is it, the trolley car thing where it's like, do you save one person? Do you kill one person to save many? - Yeah. And on top of that, - Someone's watching the good place. - I think also there's a lot of, a lot of like, what would be real world consequences and real world tensions of the show have kind of come to a head. Is she you're trying to get off the island? Wick being like, I'm not a comic relief character. I'm actually here to liberate this place from hundreds of years of damnation. Tom's kind of arriving at this moment where, you know, he obviously cares about his son and he cares about like the future of the island, but eventually is like kind of like we need to do what needs to be done. And Patricia moving into more of a like voice of reason character. So what did you think of of this episode in terms of its tonal shift? - I want to be very clear about what I'm about to say because I'm going to immediately follow up, not going to leave it alone. This is the weakest episode of Widow's Bay of the season. And I love it for that. I say the weakest because this is the first episode that felt like connective tissue. This is the first episode that locked into what appears to be the rest of the ride. Like that moment when you are at an amusement park or something and you're sitting in the weird little car on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride or whatever and it brings you right to the precipice of something and then you feel the old machinery click and suddenly you're turning left because that's where you're going next. That's what happened in this episode as it went from to your point being about everything that's happened in the past, everything that could happen in such a wildly high jinksy horror-filled island, everything that could happen when you have a writer's room led by Katie Dippold who are completely, you know, hysterical creative frenzy about all their shared references in their, like the bad parties they went to and also the bad horror movies they've seen their entire lives and even some of the good ones. And now it's going to be about something. And it's a tension that we talk about constantly when we talk about many different types of shows. It's the most fun creatively making the show and often watching it is the, we're just throwing stuff at the wall and we're seeing what we can get away with. But eventually when you're ending, and I don't mean the series is ending, but you're ending a season and you're paying the tax on the decision to make it serialized in a different way. You gotta choose. You gotta be about something. And what I loved about an episode that I am calling the weakest of the season was that even within that hard pivot, there was room for insane humor. - Mm-hmm. - Like. when Dale Dickie's character, Rosemary. When Rosemary goes through the genealogy chart. - Dead baby, dead baby, dead baby. - Dead baby, dead baby, dead baby, lesbian, dead baby. And then Patricia says, "Please stop saying that." And she says, "Oh, I'm not allowed to say that anymore." And she says, "Not like that." And she goes, "Fine." And then she circles the next generation and says, "Retards, all of them." - Yeah, yeah. - This is a show. - What was there as one character who was like something Hortense? What was the ad. Like that person had like. - I was like disappointing Hortense or Hortense though. I didn't note that down, but. But this is a show that is so deeply in its bag and so comfortable with itself that it can carve out space for, I mean, quite broad physical comedy, like Tom's temper tantrum, in which picture falls on him, and then no one. Rosemary says, "Don't save him." The total shift for me is that it was not a funny episode, but I laughed hardest. Maybe the entire season was. The two times I've laughed the hardest as a season. Are fucking Matthew Reese battling that painting, having it nearly bisect him. And then when he's like, "Can he help me?" Like, they're like, "Stand back." He could have a spinal cord injury. - And then Rosemary throws out her own back, trying to help him before the struggle. - And then the other bit is his thing with the lighthouse guy. - It's perfect. - It's like, this is a joke that could travel through time. Like, you could explain the setup of the lighthouse generator joke to the founding fathers of this island. - And they'd be like, "That's pretty funny." - They'd be like, "We're living in hell, "but I have to give it to you. "That's a good one." - Yeah. - The joke being that the radio to the old lighthouse keeper, who we never really see, - Gary. - Garrett, Tom thinks he's not being heard about needing the power generator starter from the lighthouse. So he drives through perilous storm conditions to get there. Only for Garrett to wave at him from where he just came. - Yes. And then it turns out Garrett's doing this all on a bicycle. And it's like, "I'll come back to you." And he's like, "Don't wait." He just to drive back. There's so many, like, little funny psychags in this episode, but at the same time, I felt like, and maybe it's the conversation between Wick, Tom, and Patricia, which is played with no laughs whatsoever. - Yeah. - And the fact that-- - It's very sober. - You know, we've got a lot of the sort of like, lower parts of the story have now activated, you know, like, and now we are really truly watching this, this island, you know, come under attack, really, by a demonic storm. The interesting thing to me also is that, like, you know, when I started this episode and it said it was 31 minutes, I was like, "Well, this is either gonna be "one of the great 31 minutes of my life." Or it's what I think it is, which is essentially part one of the finale. - That's right. That's what it was. - And if it ends quite, oh, here we go. - And if they had put, like, this up as a one-hour finale, and it's a nine-episode season, I think I would have been deeply satisfied, but it just so happens that they extended it. What were some of the other things that jumped out of you about this episode aside from the death of our favorite mushroom dealer, the Shaman? - I mean, it's a bummer. This one is incredible, I hope they find them in a tree, you know? - Yeah, I was thinking that too. Like, when they made the show and they hired Chris Fleming to play this one small part, they were probably like, "Man, this guy's great. "Who can we, in the Simpsons Esk Springfield cast of characters "that we've already created? "Who can we sacrifice to the vengeful tornado gods?" He was a pretty funny option, especially because he wouldn't leave his socks because he said he needed those. - Oh, yeah. - But to your point, like the moment when they made the show, essentially in a bubble of their own enthusiasm and good spirits and creativity versus now when people genuinely not just us love it, like I don't know if they would make the same decision. Like let's burn this ascended comedians funny side character, but that's the freedom of what's to come. And part of the fun of watching the show has always been watching it for purely what it is, then also admiring the construction behind it. And part of the construction behind it that I'm watching now is what is their plan to resolve the show because I 100% believe that Katie and hero took nothing for granted and will resolve aspects of the story. Like does it end with Tom and Evan at a Red Sox game? Maybe, but there are legs here and there's somewhere else for this to go. So the question is, what's it going to be? - Do you think this is gonna be the only season of the show? - No. - I don't have insider knowledge, but I did TV. - I don't either, but I wonder if they had known what a sensation it would become if they would have had this storm hitting in the end of the first season. I think they would in the sense that she knows, I mean, again, I think we're gonna get a chance to talk to her about it, and it's not fair to reduce anyone to their influences, but it's interesting watching this as such an incredibly successful distillation of serialized storytelling and episodic storytelling from someone who is a veteran of Parks and Recreation, which was so good at managing the line between the two, who then went on to write movies and knowing that you gotta leave it on the table and tell your full story. - Sure. - Then there's a third piece, what do you hold on to? Where do you go next? And I was thinking about this show is just, at this point, seemingly effortless ability to transition between what you were saying, serious emotional reckonings between the characters who are 100% at the same characters they've been in every episode. But Trisha, the one who's sitting there being concerned or wanting to protect Tom or want to move things along, is the same woman who just tased a lady having a wine club meeting? - Yes. - That's still the same person. But so a show that can manage the reality of them as well as the surreality of them, episode to episode. But then also, I don't know, I'm getting lost in the sauce of my own analogy. - No, I don't you mean-- - Because of these characters. - It's like they can have repeatable like TV bones, but they can be put into like almost movie scenarios, right? - And what I was thinking about when I was watching them just do this, it can be broad, it can be specific, it can be light, it can be dark. I was thinking about the bear, which is coming back-- - At the end of the month. - In just a couple of weeks at this point. And I was thinking about the genuinely organic, beautifully thrilling excitement of the first season, in which we were looking at characters who were seemingly capable of everything also, in a show that was able to straddle multiple tones. Despite what the hax lobby would have you believe, the bear season one was hilarious. - Sure. - And impossibly tense, you know? And the inevitabilities of long form storytelling, maybe when you didn't intend for there to be long form storytelling, it wears on shows, it wears on characters, they become less elastic. So I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here, but I was really present in appreciating what's capable right now. - Yeah, I mean, there's, I guess I would assume, based on what I know about the moral world of the show that there will be a wrinkle to the Ruth storyline. - They're not going to kill an old lady next week? - Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I think that, honestly, I would say that Stephen Root has been remarkable on this show, and for as much as I admire Kato Flynn and Matthew Root's performances, Stephen Root, is that part could go wrong. Like that part could be like way too much yelling at clouds, way too much like this guy wouldn't be fit. Nobody would let him into a restaurant or nobody would want him. And like he kind of like embodies like a worn out weathered truth sauer in this series. And I certainly really hope he continues on because he's such a wonderful addition to this show, but I'll be fascinated to see, I mean, presumably, they're going to traverse across an island to go find Ruth with a giant tornado streaking across it. - Stephen Root, we don't talk about enough because he's like woven into the American television fabric to a degree that is almost supernatural. - Yeah. - But if you think about, like the first time I became aware of Stephen Root as an actor was watching News Radio, when he takes apart that within two or three appearances, you're like, well, no one else could play this part. This is so, so deeply, deeply specific and so remarkable that I can't, but I also can't say that as a 19 year old, I was like, it's a generational actor right there. I was like, that guy's really funny. But you think about how at least in three cases, and I imagine if I did a deep dive on his filmography, there maybe would be more to pick out. But News Radio, but particularly recently with Barry and with Widow's Bay, the television shows do not work without Stephen Root. I'm not saying they wouldn't be well written, but if Stephen Root isn't playing the part he plays on Barry, the way that he plays it in a way that only he can, and specifically here with the Widow's Bay as well, which is everything he does is so knowing and broad and clever and comic, but also so soulful and technically precise that the show doesn't work. It just, I mean, I can't imagine there was anyone else on their wish list. - I mean, it's also like he's been doing this for 40 years. - Yes. - But yeah, I was just, I forgot that he was Judge Mike Readeron unjustified. He was on good wife. He was on boardwalk empire. He is in the newsroom for two episodes. He's on Fargo for two episodes. I mean, it's just such an insane. - One sneaky thing is that I know the co-embrothers are celebrated, but I don't know if we-- - Seven episodes of Perry Mason with Matthew Reese, which I wonder if that's where that relationship started. - But do you feel like the co-embrothers get enough credit for telling us about people? Like it was the co-embrothers. Like I know that like John Goodman was like a great, who's a great theater actor, and everyone was like, wow, this guy's good.
has really got the sauce. But the Cohen brothers, like when they see someone who can do what they want, they're telling us something. - Is this first one with them, oh brother? - Who? - Stephen Root. - I think so. But I just mean when like people like Stephen Root start showing up, even like in the later movies. - Yeah, yeah. - So like, oh, that's a guy who can do this. - Yeah. - You know, in the tradition of a Tratero or a John Goodman, there's just a, or a Michael Stoolbarg. There's like a specificity of the type of performer. It is basically telling you Tim Blake Nelson, like, oh, these guys can pretty much do anything and should be working twice as much as they do and they already work quite a lot. - What do you think of the Bashir plotline, the late introduction of his wife, and this pregnancy that needs to, that also has like a degree of urgency, because before it was just like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if Evan could get off the island and blow up some steam, go to college maybe, and now it's like, well, they all know that if you're born here, you're doomed. So there was like this push to get Bashir's wife off of the island from Patricia. And now it's like, you know. - And the wixing there is great. What's the plan here, the boats? - That's great. That boat came here on a boat. - Great. - It's a great line. - I think that there is an element of engineering to good television writing and to show running and the ability to be deeply within the characters and within the script to write funny jokes or have some kind of consistency as one thing, but to also be able to step back with some perspective and say, you know what, this is actually a load-bearing wall and we're gonna need to short up a little bit. And the show could work, hurtling towards a finale, hyper-focused on the three leads and what freedom might mean for them from this curse. But it works a lot better if there's like a ticking baby clock of a future generation, that could be saved more than, 'cause like what are this, like, again, we're thinking about what are the stakes for all these characters and we understand deeply Evan's unfortunate life in his limited claustrophobic existence and like why he wants to act up and get out. But the stakes of him living essentially well enough for 17 years without going to a Red Sox game doesn't hit as hard as this young couple, the young family anyway, like who don't really wanna be here will be cursed to live here forever. It just hits different. It's just smart engineering. - It really is. I cannot wait for the finale. Hopefully we'll have Katie on to discuss it next week. I will leave you to the rest of the episode. - What do you think I'm gonna do? This is exciting. At this point, decisions will have been made. Announcements, introductions will have happened. Do you have any crystal ball predictions for what I've already said about you, about how I feel about you, about how I feel about you not being here? - This is why I listen. - You know? - That's why I don't. (laughing) Thanks to Kaya and Kaya. We'll be back on Monday with some combination of a wonderful television talk. - You'll just talk to me about Cape Fear. - That's right. - I am so happy to be joined yet again. I don't know if this is the third year or the fourth year. - At least. - We feel lucky every time we get to do it. We are joined by the executive producer and judge of Top Chef, our official favorite Canadian, Gail Simmons. Welcome back to the launch. - Thank you so much. I always love talking to you. - I am really excited to talk to you. We have a lot to cover for season 23. We have some good. We have some bad. We have some, not ugly, but some curious. - Less attractive, perhaps, but also really interesting. - Fascinating, if I may. So I do think we should start where we just ended, which is the finale. Sherry Lawrence and Rhoda are our final three. And I wondered if you could give some insight into how much time, because it did feel like again, I'm maybe wrong about this, that there wasn't a gap this year between-- - There wasn't a gap, that's right, because we didn't travel for our finale as we usually do. We went right through all in the Carolinas. And I was actually very mixed about that from a production standpoint when they told us that that was the schedule we had to keep to. I brought it up several times with our showrunner, Donnie, and who I also think maybe has spoken to over the years. But I was worried that usually our chefs get a reset. They get two weeks or so between the bulk of the season. And that last, let's say two to three episodes to get back to their life, rest, recoup, get their creative juices flowing again, craft this final menu. They got none of that this time. But the flip side was that they just were running. You know what I mean? They didn't stop, and then there's kind of a law, and you forget the, and you're not sort of in the moment anymore, and then you have to get back in the moment. So there's two sides to the argument. This is one of the first times. The only other time I can think of when we didn't take a gap was during the pandemic when we were in Portland, Oregon. But you know, I think it worked. I do. I think that their menus were what they would have been either way, and I think that the final three were just sort of allowing forward. They were in a zone. They were, as they said, many times locked in. >> Yeah, much like the New York next. There's something to be said about being streaky. >> That's right. >> The only thing I really, I missed was the hairstyle glow up that we often get from the contestants. >> Yes, that's true. >> That was a shame. >> That's true. >> But I was willing to look at it. >> We tried to give you some ourselves. >> You guys look great. >> It's Tom especially. It's Tom especially. >> Tom, I mean, I googled. >> He had a glow up. >> He Tom looks amazing. I did googled Tom Colliqueo ear piercing midway through the finale, which I've been in form of the internet was not debuted in the finale, but it's sparkled on the top of the now. >> But it was the season. >> Yeah. >> Incredible. >> Tom does funny things when he goes away. >> Just out there. >> It makes me love him so much. Just as a side conversation. >> Sure. >> I think he just gets a little bit like loose and he's not focusing on the restaurants as much. He's not as stressed perhaps. And he, when we were in New Orleans in season 11, he went out one day just before the finale too. We had a day off and he was missing his songs. They were much younger than. And he went out to Frenchman street and got a giant tattoo. Out of nowhere, first tattoo he'd ever had. And he was like over 50. He just decided that day that he wanted a tattoo. And he got a giant tattoo of his son's names on his arm in this beautiful script and like came back really casually the next day to shoot. And I was like, what the f is that? But he was just like, yeah, just felt like it. And since then, he's had like eight tattoos. But then on this season, he walked into the set one day with new ear piercings. Actually, to be fair, apparently he had them or at least one of them before from years and years ago and they closed up. And he was like, I was in a mood. I wouldn't go on the years pierced restaurant people. I love that for him. Yeah, I love it. You take him out of the restaurants, but they still have that energy. Yeah, I know. So with the lack of break between the penultimate episode and the finale, what opportunity did you and Tom and Kristen have to discuss what you expected? Is that even a worthwhile question? Did you expect certain things coming into the finale? And were those expectations met or subverted in any ways with what was actually served? We only talk about it to a certain extent because you can't put expectations on them in that way. You have no idea what they're going to do. I mean, you have some idea obviously of eating their food through the season. You know the direction. We knew that Lawrence was going to pull from Chinese American roots. We knew he was going to, you know, we knew that trajectory. We knew that Rota had been starting to really show us this beautiful Filipino home cooking elevated. We knew that Sherry would bring in the skill and technique she had from the restaurant she worked in with her Brazilian background. We knew the generals, but I don't think you can ever expect. And I think when you do have too much effort to eat in your largely disappointed, right? Because they need to show you who they are. You can't force on anyone, but certainly not on a chef in this creative outlet what you want them to do. You know, it's like children. You need to meet them where they are. And so that was a weird metaphor. But you know what I mean? You really, you can't, there's just no way of knowing where they're going to pull from, where their inspiration is and what is meaningful to them. And that's the beauty I think of the finale that we finally release them from all of the parameters and finally after, you know, 13 episodes of making sure they cook us exactly what we want in these very narrow terms. We let them just show us what they can do. And I find whenever I do really discuss it in advance or have expectations which I have had over the years, I'm disappointed truly. I'm like, oh, it's never as good as I want it to be. There was a technical error here. But it takes all the joy out of them just cooking from the heart, right? And it's not about being perfect sometimes. It's about sort of showing us themselves and pushing themselves and giving us a piece of who they are. And I want that to be soulful and meaningful and delicious, more than I want it to be this like fussy perfection. And then I think you got what you wanted because I think at least from an audience perspective, this was a quite imperfect finale in terms of the cooking. I was struck by, and I wonder if there's any aspect of this that can be credited to the lack of break, like just some pretty fundamental temperature, plating, cooking method, decision-making errors that left you guys with what seemed like I couldn't tell honestly. I couldn't tell ultimately if this was an incredibly hard decision because everybody kind of messed up. Or if ultimately it was an easy decision because one per--
And the person didn't mess up as egregiously as the other two on the technical things. Both, it was a hard decision. It was a hard decision because all of them did at least one thing that we absolutely loved that we couldn't stop thinking about that really blew us away. And all each of them also had something of a flaw along the way, if not more. But all of their dishes, I think, were actually in some ways more ambitious than we often get in the finale. I think they used ingredients that we don't often see. I think they pushed themselves to sort of show us what they really could do that they've been holding back a little bit. It wasn't perfect. I guess there's an argument. We'll never really know to be made that they were tired because they were definitely tired. I mean, they were tired by restaurant wars. They're always tired by restaurant wars. But the good thing is that it kind of doesn't matter because, again, as we say all the time, it's greater on bell curve. We're not comparing their dishes that night to dishes they've made in the past, to other chefs, to what I could get somewhere else. We're only comparing them to each other in this sort of bubble of a scenario. And across the board, they were all tired. And they all had the same challenges. They were all up against the same timeline. So in a way, you just have to sort of clear your mind of what could have been the what ifs of if we'd given them a break. There were a moment or two of disappointment, for sure, about temperature, about cooking, done this once or twice, two or three dishes sort of stand out to me that way. But really, I think it was an even race. And we truly were sort of stumped at the very end of the meal. It was not obviously clear. I actually think that the analogy you made towards meeting children where they are is very useful here because I definitely found as a viewer this season, I mean, how could I not be comparing seasons to seasons? But particularly, there was disappointment that I felt when I realized that at least from a viewer perspective having not tasted the food, none of the contestants were really elevating and transcending in a way that some of the legendary grates or even the more recent grates like a Buddha or Tristan did. You know, Buddha was made in a lab to destroy cooking competitions. But Tristan came out of, he didn't, Tristan didn't come out of nowhere, but his arc over the season was almost scripted in the sense that, oh my God, the Prince who was promised has been here the entire time. Yes, and he's in built and built and built. And found a beautiful way to express his natural gifts through the prism of the challenges, whereas someone like Lawrence who I loved as a contestant, I imagine I would love as a person and whose food I would choose 10 times out of 10, stayed within his comfort zone, elevating, but within his comfort zone. So I wonder how you are able to keep your focus on the specifics of the season you are judging without remembering what is possible within the framework you've created year after year. I mean, that's interesting because I think we've had seasons where we've thought that much more so, actually. I mean, Wisconsin, I remember we thought that a lot. We had many more discussions about it. What was interesting about this cast was especially in the first five or six episodes, they all crushed it together on days that they crushed it and they all flunked and flopped together on the days that they flopped. They sure did. And it was a bit of a roller coaster that way. We couldn't figure out what was happening like they, but they were also, I don't know, they all played on each other really, really well. And there were certainly some really memorable challenges and really memorable dishes. And I don't know, I'm so used to just thinking about it, the way that I described that it is on a bell curve, that it has nothing to do with how Melissa King cooked or how Buddha cooked, or how Tristan cooked, or, you know, any number of, or Kristen Cash, exactly, that all we have to do is think, what was the best thing we ate today and what was the least best thing we ate today? Those are the parameters. And that's part of why it's set up that way. You can't judge it like as a mark out of ten. It's not a science, right? It is a craft and you need to think about it holistically, I think, in the scenario you're in, you know what I mean? You can't compare it to, you know, it's like sports. When you talk with us all the time anyway, it doesn't matter how you played yesterday or how you could play tomorrow, it's how you played the game that day against the opponents who were there on the field. And I think that we have really trained ourselves to remember that along the way. And when we don't, we're reminded by each other. And, and most importantly, perhaps, we have a fourth judge at the table, sometimes a fifth, who have no context and they are so vital to that process to bringing us back to what is right in front of us. And not worrying about anything else because it doesn't matter. There's no way to judge it fairly if you bring in those factors. I imagine the actual grind of production is incredibly intense. And so the opportunities to adjust are probably minimal. But are there a producerial discussions mid-season or post certain challenges about ways in which maybe you could nudge things in a direction to challenge, to surprise? Because, you know, there are obviously producerial decisions in that direction made before the season. Like, let's bring in a couple. Let's bring in brothers. Yes. And the potential-- The casting, sure. The casting, the potential conflict never happened. It was all very pleasant, which I like. We always talk, especially the quick fires. But there's always room for decision making that we talk through in the challenges. I mean, certain things are set, the parameters, the theme. But we can adjust the time. We can adjust the ingredients. We can adjust certain factors because we are-- we are hit with real-life scenarios all the time. You know, we cooked overnight from barbecue challenge and right before we did judges' table, there was a massive possible tornado cyclone hurricane situation. And, you know, we had to stop down and pivot and figure it out. And so that's extreme. But we definitely look at each challenge as we come to it because they are written before we start the season and then we go into execution. And there's always a hold on a second. Can they do this? Are they, as a group, capable of pulling this off? Because we also don't want to give them something that then everyone's going to flunk and then no one looks good. But after episode two, this season, which was our chili pepper challenge, we realized that, yes, they're capable. You know, they didn't do grade in episode one and they didn't do grade in episode three, but they crushed it in episode two. So we knew we could push them a little bit more than we were worried about. And push yourselves. You filmed that inside what appeared to be a torture chamber? It was a torture chamber. It was 97 degrees. And we were eating ghost peppers for breakfast. Yeah, this is season 23. You don't have to do this. But you want to know what's interesting about that challenge that I keep saying we ate that multi-course chili pepper meal. And we, so we were hot. Like we were sweating because it was August in the Carolinas. But I'm going to eat some cucumbers along the way to cool them enough. But it didn't blow us away. I was prepared. Like we walked in thinking we're going to be like in bed for three days, grabbing our bellies. And all of us were fine. Because they actually figured out how to use the peppers in such beautiful ways. They didn't blow us out at all. And we were like, "I'm going to eat some chili pepper." And a long time viewer, it couldn't help but feel that there have been some budget trims over the years. And it felt particularly this year, slightly claustrophobic, that there were a lot of in-studio challenges that there were, there was a less fewer opportunities to be out and about. Less chance kitchen being trimmed by a number of weeks and only one contestant returning from it. Just these smaller things on the margins, up to and including, in an episode that I think was rightly acclaimed, I think there were two takeaways from the Asheville episode. One was, this is what Top Chef does best, connecting contemporary events, culture, emotion, family, storytelling, and food, to also watching it and being like, they took a two-hour drive and none of the judges and Kristen didn't come with them and some of the restaurants they just did a drive by, that felt small. Yeah, it was interesting. So let me just eat it. It's actually totally different. No, no, it's really interesting. You picked up on all those different things and you are right and wrong about them. Love it. First of all, we did just as many in-studio challenges as we have done in the last five years. Okay. We have a mandate because we build a giant studio that we have to do, what we do almost all our quickfires there and we have to do, I think, at least two eliminations there. I could be wrong, like, I can't have the conversation. You know, I don't have the details in front of me, but that's the same as we've been doing, actually, for the last several years. That did not change. I actually felt like we. we were out in the most beautiful locations so much. But what did change is that usually, obviously, this isn't a secret, we worked very closely with the CVB of every city we're going to, right? With the visitors bureau and the tourism board, the city, the mayor, or the states. And this year, the Caroline has stepped up in such a big way that that was their deal. They wanted the whole thing. Usually we don't sell them the whole thing, but they made a really compelling argument for being in different places and moving, you know, to, from a Charlotte, obviously, basing ourselves in Charlotte, but then moving to Greenville and doing three full ups, those in Greenville, and then a little bit in Asheville. But that was because there were different cities playing into it, and Charlotte and Greenville gave us 90% of the support we needed in Asheville. We wanted to do Asheville. That was us wanting to honor Asheville. Obviously Asheville is known for so much of its culinary. It has an amazing dining scene for such a small place. And so we wanted to go to Asheville. So we did it the best we could because we really wasn't in the resources of what, you know, and as big a way as the other two places. So we found a creative way to work Asheville in and hurricane relief and speak to some of those chefs who we tried to get to come to Charlotte and for other reasons were able to make it. So, you know, we had to use a budget creatively, but it wasn't necessarily because it was trimmed that we didn't go on a finale. It was just more that North Carolina and specifically Charlotte came to us with such a big plan. - That's interesting. - They were like, this is what we want to do. We want to keep it here the whole time. - I also think-- - As I understand it. - Part of it is also I think that, you know, there's benefits to filming more regionally that are exciting and seeing things we've never seen before, but I would also imagine it presents an issue in terms of scheduling in budget, too, to then bring in recognizable chefs. You want to celebrate local, but you also want some bigger-- - So we need to have full safe things for sure. - All of the above. - Yeah. - But interestingly, when you mentioned last chance kitchen, that's a completely separate budget, actually. It's a completely different show. It operates like its own show, actually. So the changes with that definitely came to play, but that had nothing to do with top chef proper that we were making. So yes, there was a different sponsorship changes and certainly they chose to make it a smaller show this year, but it has nothing to do with the bigger picture of top chef itself. That would have happened no matter what. - And I say this as a fan and someone who wants the show to be healthy, I was also concerned by the time slot shenanigans. - Me too. - It felt like Kristen was too. - Kristen was out there about it on social media. - Well, 'cause she get teaport and it all falls to her and us, 'cause we're the ones who get yelled at by fans. But why don't you know something interesting? - Yes, very much. - It didn't matter. - Now, it doesn't matter because the fans are the fans or it doesn't matter because increasingly people are watching it on Tuesdays on Peacock anyway and so 945 is abstract to that. - Correct. It was a weird social experiment and it annoyed us because we're all not gen Z-alphas and don't, we don't understand how TV works these days, but the proof is in the numbers, which is so interesting and I wish I could get more specific, I just don't have that information. But the story's actually pretty amazing. It drove us nuts and then also that same thing that always happens with social media that like the few people who are the loudest, get the attention, but it turns out there's only a few of them, you know, in comparison to the numbers we're seeing. So as frustrating as it is for me 'cause I wanna say Monday's at 9th and it moved 16 times apparently everyone's really thrilled and it didn't make enough of a big difference to really be a problem, which I actually think is fascinating. - Yes, as a study in the show has straddled so many errors that it can continue to thrive and adjust and evolve is a good thing. - Correct. - Okay, so we have to talk about two specific moments, obviously, I did think that I was trying to try, I was doing the TikTok as in the clock, not the app. What went on here. And I think we can trace it all back to Chekhov's tire swing because from what I remember correctly, Jen swung on a tire swing right before showing up in the Carolina's injured her shoulder and then a lot of crazy stuff happened all because of that initial injury. - Yes. - Correct. - So she's in-- - As I understand it as well. - So she was injured, she arrives slightly injured, she exacerbates the injury through repetitive chopping and doing all the things she needs to do as a cook. She sits out one or two quick fires. She is warned that we can't really accommodate this. She says, "I'm gonna stay," but then has to go due to a non-set of what may have been Bell's palsy or something. - It was Bell's palsy. Yes, I think I hope that-- - No, I think that was public. I mean, I wasn't on the episode. - Which, by the way, was related, but Bell's palsy is a whole other thing and it's a virus, right, as I understand it. And it's brought on not quite your house, stress. - I think stress plus, yeah. So she has to go. Justin who has been eliminated, her partner, is offered the chance to stay. And he lovingly and generously says, "I need to be with her." So he leaves. Now, what we learned, I think awkwardly this season is that the last chance kitchen taping is not happening concurrently with the rhythm of the show. This is something that, you know, the magic of television shows. - Yeah, we save them up. We save them up and do them in bulk. - We didn't-- - Because we need a few people at a time. - And we didn't know that. So what led to was a very, very strange felt like cover-up situation briefly. - Was it? That's funny. - Well, only because we-- - You didn't know what was happening. - We didn't know what was happening, 'cause so Seagrard does not show up in last chance kitchen. No one shows up in last chance kitchen. The next week, Justin shows up in last chance kitchen having determined that Jen is well enough for him to compete. He loses and Rhoda comes back eventually. But Seagrard has already come back. - Correct. - Any lessons to be learned here in regards to the last chance kitchen of it all, or is this really a freak one-off in which a contestant is injured and everyone tried to do their best? - It was a freak runoff. I mean, it was just an unmitigated circumstance that we could have never anticipated. The onset of what, you know, when we saw her suffering really that last day, you could see that like, beyond her shoulder, her face was paralyzed, and it was getting worse and worse. And we just had to call, I mean, you have to call it, right? We need you at what cost are you doing this to yourself, right? And so as a organization, we have to say, it's time for you to take care of yourself. And then this sort of domino effect, okay, well, what do we do now? It just was this, you know, that was the good and bad of bringing in a couple that by what are the chances that the last person who had been eliminated in that episode was Justin, and then did he want to stay or go? Well, he did, I think, the right thing. And all of a sudden, we had to figure it out because there was no footprint for this. There's no precedence. It was happening in real time. And I remember that night staying really late and Kristen, saying even later, to film that conversation with Justin, to go in and tell him because Jennifer was at the hospital and we all sort of were waiting. I ended up going home and I was waiting for Kristen to text me, to tell me what was happening because we needed to know where the show was gonna go and Donnie and our showrunner was in touch with us all. And we were figuring it out as we went along. So, you know, I can't imagine it would ever happen again. You know, we wish we could have like shown more of her journey. But also, there's only so much you can follow someone into an urgent care situation. But we just want to make sure she was better and she is, she has made our recovery. We're glad about that. Downstream of this decision, Seager is eliminated, is saved by a act of God. Dodge's Rota and Last Chance Kitchen survives deeper into the competition, makes chicken liver parfait and 90 degree heat that looks, frankly, deeply unappealing. Even to a viewer and then has an all-time crash out at Judges table, something that we haven't seen on the show maybe ever and also kind of bracingly broke the seal of a very beautiful, supportive, genteel kind of vibe that has been cultivated over the last few years where everyone is supporting each other, everyone is there to make friends. And, you know, the eliminations are tough but fair. How shocked were all of you? How much did we not see? - So, where do we begin? Yes, the chicken liver missed was unappealing. Again, that we are living and judged on a bell curve of what was the best thing we ate that day and what was the worst thing we ate that day under the circumstances of the challenge that we're given. And it was very obvious to us that although he had good intentions and there was good flavor, it was not a successful dish for a few reasons. You know, we know the chefs throw peripherally in terms of their personal relationship to us. We had been hearing a little bit of grumblings, Cut, we cut, and a small one.
whiffs of perhaps overconfidence, but he also had done some amazing things in the course of his trajectory on the show. I mean, yes, he got eliminated and there were a few clunkers, but there was also some really amazing moments for Siga, I think, to be wise. It was a surprise to us. I always say that I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often, because it is very hard to take criticism. Even if we are trying to be constructive, you are on camera being told what you failed at, and that is an incredibly hard pull to just follow no matter how cool you are. I mean, Tom always says you chose to be a chef, you will get reviewed in your career. That is the path you chose. If you wanna be a restaurant chef, you will be critiqued. If you wanna be an opera singer, if you wanna be an athlete, if you wanna be a dancer, a singer, an actor, you will be critiqued. That is the craft that you've chosen. I think what happened with Siga was, you know, I'm still trying to process, but I have a picture, truthfully, there was a lot, you didn't see, there was a lot more conversation back and forth between all of us, but then you did see, you really saw, I think, the crux of what happened. He didn't understand from what I could take away why he was going home because he followed the challenge. He incorporated two or more ingredients from the Appalachian pantry. He made a dish that he finished, but what I'd understand is that someone has to go and of all the things we tasted, like everybody was successful in doing that. Every single person, you two more ingredients, and every single person finished their dish and served as something great. And even if it was great, it was the least great of the five dishes that day. - I think the show has really thrived as it has steered away, and I say, has steered away. This is like already 20 years old, but there's very little of the quote-unquote reality show left. It is a very, very high-minded and supportive competition program. But that said, there are some reality elements and eliminated contestants don't go home. So he's stewing around Charlotte somewhere and then comes back for the finale. Was there any bumpiness or any friction that you perceived of was that ever an issue? - Well, I was wondering the same thing, but he did calm down. And then in everything I've heard from Rhoda and seen on the final cut, and then I actually this morning was reading an interview with Rhoda about that exact question of how was it then cooking with Seeker? Knowing what had happened in his elimination, he was like so thrilled to have him and she knew he would show up for her and he did. He cooked his heart out for her, he supported her, he executed as she needed him to. And they worked really, really well together. And they're really close. In fact, I think he just flew to Hawaii to cook a dinner with her last night for over the last couple days. So I think he was able to get over it. I wish I understood what his point was more. Like what was he trying to tell us? I'm not totally sure. - I'm not gonna give him his flowers for being willing, he was willing to fly to Hawaii. - No, no, I'm just saying that they are so close. I'm just making the point that they are so close. She invited him, right? So like they, it worked. - All of these people professionals, they've worked with high blooded people. - But they are particularly close is what I mean. Even after this happening. - Okay, so I have to call you guys in this and find out what was going on. There was some feeling that Nana should have gone home in the first episode for the ring mold, but I'm not on that camp. I loved that episode. I loved for the way it demonstrated the evolving role of the judges, you guys in your pastoral role and especially Kristen in which he brings to the show. And also Tom being like, I liked it more. Good for Tom. So I'm not worried about that. There was one elimination that still sticks in my crawl and I need to know, understand more about it. - Oh, tell me. - Okay, so Rhoda is amazing at the top, falls to the bottom, last chance kitchen. She boat races everyone. She Christians, she crescendos back in as a, as a top line competitor. - Oh, I know why. - She walks back in and her reward for winning last chance kitchen in such a dominating fashion is to get shanked. No, that would be lamb shanked, shipped with dessert. - Yes. - Set up to fail, does fail, makes what is clearly to the audience the worst dish of the day. And then Oscar goes home 'cause he put rice on his plate. That felt a little-- - Terrible underhand. - And of God a little bit. That felt a little-- - It wasn't. As I remember it, and again, it's so hard to remember it all. But I try to remember it versus just pull from what the show showed you, you know what I mean? His dish, the rice was terrible. Like the rice was legitimately not great, and it should have been. - If he was going to add something that was duplicative or redundant since his assignment wasn't to make rice. Is that the thing? - Correct. - So he added something he shouldn't have and the thing he added was bad. - But you know, it wasn't like, there was no hand of God. It was really just like again, sometimes when there's a few things that are sort of in the same, at the same level, and we have to make a decision, there's no, well, let's just not send anyone home or let's send do we go home. We go about it from different angles, and often it's, well, what would I rather eat again? And I would rather eat that dessert a hundred times over than eat what Oscar served us. It just wasn't successful. It wasn't delicious. Her's was a bit of a mess. It was. But it wasn't like, there was nothing sort of like bad tasting about it or actually bad about it. It just wasn't skillfully put together. - Okay, I'll allow it, plus she won, and she deserved to be there. And I would have been angry if she was gone, but I'm just saying. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, so it's a good perspective. I like hearing all this stuff. It's very helpful. I've said this before, you should be a producer on the show. You should be the audience producer. - Calm, give me a call. I have plenty of questions that we don't really have time for about just like, I like talking to you very much about the state of the industry as well as the way it reflects on top chef. So I think I can sort of consolidate that into one basic question, which is one of the beauties of the show over many years and now decades has been seeing the way the show has both led the industry and responded to changes in the industry. And you can see changes from like the dominating masculine brigade system to this beautiful moment when diners, eyes and stomachs turn towards cuisines, they may not have been familiar with and the contestants reflected that. We are in a very, very strange and kind of dark moment, I would say economically, certainly. I mean, generally yes, but particularly for the restaurant industry at the moment. And here's a quote I wanna give you from a recent interview in New York magazine with Dan Clueger, who's a great chef in New York. - Yes, I love him so much and I love his restaurant. - Loring place, which he is closing after 10 years. So here's the question and the answer. Here's the question. How do you operate in a place where you need to charge $50 for an appetizer that once costs $20? In Dan's answer, you don't, which is why we're closing. - Correct. - This is the moment the restaurants are in. - I mean, three restaurants, major to me, important vital restaurants to the lifeblood of New York City closed last week or planning or announced closure last week. - Including Tom Colicchio's craft. - Correct. - So how can or how should top chef reflect this reality or how does the contestant pull reflect this reality? - Well, I think that your earlier question about budget constraints does reflect this reality. But there is still appetite for what we do. And we are so lucky that we can give our contestants the means to do it on our show. Our show isn't the real world, right? We know that, but we do pride ourselves in it reflecting real world circumstances of what it takes to run a restaurant or be a chef today. Obviously, we are not including so many things. We give them the money they need. Obviously, we do put constraints on it. They're never like, you know, I think it's not actually helpful to just say, "Oh, you have all the money you need to buy caviar and blah, blah, blah." - Well, Kale, they get 2.5% back also. Let's be clear about that. - Correct, there's cash back. - That's been mentioned. - Wells Fargo, thank you very much. We love Wells Fargo, but we, you know, I do think that it is still a hard, it's still challenging, but what I think it allows people to do is to push themselves creatively to figure out what they can serve that still reflects who they are when you're not relying on the crutches of easy luxury. - Yes. - And I think that that actually is really important to the moment we're in. You know, I read an interview and for what it's worth, I'll send it to you after this call because I've sent it to so many people. It's actually was written by a chef in Toronto, who I'm friendly with, who I was on top chef, Canada with, and whose restaurants we ate at a lot when we were shooting in Canada last season. And he's a chef, I respect the great deal. He wrote an article recently. And what he said, like I can't get out of my head and it's very similar to what Dan Pluger said, which is that he said the problem is that restaurant and I'm paraphrasing, the problem is that restaurants are unable to charge the prices of what food costs. They have to charge what diners are willing to spend. And there is such a man.
massive discrepancy between the two and diners have no idea. And if we really charge, if we, I do not run a restaurant for this reason, if restaurants really charge for profit margins like that reflect the margins of any other industry in the world, no one would go to restaurants. Interestingly, if I may say, I am about to publish a book in November called "Gesting" and it tackles this question in a big way in part of the book about how to be a good guest in all different scenarios. And much of the book is about going to people's homes and building community and the reciprocal relationship between hosting guests, but a third of the book, sorry, a quarter of the book, is dedicated to restaurants and how to be a good guest in restaurants. And it really breaks that down. Why we don't understand when we go to a restaurant that is, it is not just transactional. And in fact, we are getting nine times at a 10, an amazing deal and let's act accordingly and let's respect and go grace for the people who choose to do this for us, for a living, because it is especially right now financially almost near impossible. Well, I think also, top chef has done a lot of great work in the contestants particularly when they've left the show in educating people not just on what the cost is financial, emotional, labor, but also that there is such a profoundly, just ingrained disparity between what we think should cost certain amounts of money. So seeing what Kwame has done in New York with ingredients that maybe people weren't, or Paul Carmichael at Kabawa right being like, yes, this is built on a tradition of things that you can get on the corner in Brooklyn, but we are elevating it and there's like, you can pay for tortillas and you can pay for it if you're Chinese, the more it's a Chinese food. Chinese food is, I always say is, and it goes back to a lot of things. I mean, there's so many layers on pack here, but the traditional cheap take out, right? And that is xenophobic, but it is also ingrained in American culture in a way that has to change, because we now know that so many of these cuisines are the great cuisines of the world and to do them well and with education and thought and, and with the best quality ingredients, those same best quality ingredients that we expect when we go to La Bernardin or to craft, you have to pay for it. But now, what do we do about this moment where the first decade of Top Chef, it was clear, you win Top Chef, you open a restaurant in your hometown and then you have a restaurant empire and then you do it every month. And decade of Top Chef, you win Top Chef and you become a brand and you, you know, you, you consult and you, you work on yourself and you don't tie yourself to one place. You work on the food network exactly. You show or do we are now in this era where we are in the fried chicken with with caviar era, right? Like that's all anybody wants to eat 1%, or 99% and you put caviar on the fried chicken and you charge whatever. And that's where we're at. But what do we do with the or who are the next generation of contestants and what are their ambitions? Because I think that I'd again not faulting anyone. But to come on and be like, I am a ninja of execution and fine dining like Buddha, well, what is the end game for that these days without a restaurant? The creativity of a Richard Blazer countless other contestants who I'm not really thinking of at this exact moment. But like, do they come in with that same creativity or are they just like, I live in the world as it is and my margins are what they are and I'm just know I think they come in with bigger aspirations. And I think a lot of them come in, I do because we always say, like, just keep cooking. Like, keep your head. You win. It's very easy to be distracted by the shiny lights and the sparkles of the caviar. But if you stop cooking, and I don't mean restaurant cooking is the only way to cook. But if you stop cooking, it's very hard to maintain that level of respect, right? In the injury. But I look at so many successful chefs whose food I admire so much, Melissa King, for example, who markedly actually never had a restaurant for any of us to go to. But she has managed to be relevant because she is so good at what she does. And she is a creative and she's able to bring that to us in many different ways, whether it's to her book or pop ups or, you know, any number of things that she does, traveled country, collaborations. And I do think that there's a lot to be said for that. We all, they need to make a living, number one. And I know for sure that it is easier for Melissa to make a living doing what she's doing and just using her as an example. Then it is for most restaurant chefs who have one restaurant that they are. Not always, but often just like, you know, tied to day after day. Just the financials, she doesn't have a staff, she doesn't have a lease. So, you know, I think that's reality and that doesn't mean that they're not chefs and that they're experienced and that their creativity is invalid. I just think that we're going to see more of it because at the end of the day, people need to make a living wage. And that sounds crazy, but also so simple. So anyway, you can do that while doing what you love is a gift, I think. And I think that there's just, we are a little traditional in that, you know, where I was like, just go back to the restaurant and put your head down and cook. That's not the, what's the, there's many ways to scan the cat. That is a weird expression. It is really weird. But, you know, there's just so many ways. And I think we, we all will fall behind if we maintain only that thinking. I mean, we're all Uber drivers now, Gale. Right. Well, me too, right? Like, I was a journalist, like I, I worked at Food My Magazine for 15 years. That's how I got this gig. And sometimes people ask me now, well, what do you do? Like a top chef only takes eight weeks of your year, what do you do? What are you? And I'm like, I'm still a journalist just because I'm not working at a legacy media company anymore. I'm actually doing way more. And my platform has allowed me, I mean, being on top chefs is reporting and research and exploration and giving voice to my industry. The books I'm able to write, the articles I'm able to write, the, you know, keynote speeches, the research, I still, you know, but it's just about thinking you can't be, you can't get stuck in how it was 20 years ago when I started this gig. You have to evolve. And I think the chefs have actually done a great job of that. That was a very long answer. No, I find this fascinating. And it's part of, I mean, I think we touch on this in different versions every year we get to talk. Yeah. It's relevant. It stays interesting. It'll be interesting to see what Rhoda does, too, because she's not obeyers and on the big island, which is gorgeous and she's the chef there. And I hope she stays there for a while and shows it, you know, because I think now people want to find her. But I also know she said it herself, like who knows what her trajectory will be and where she wants to go next. And she's figuring that out. And I'm just really excited to see all of them. I adore them. I really do. I think they were a great group of chefs. But with Rhoda, in particular, as our winner, I think he will do something unexpected and beautiful. And I think she'll really give a platform to the food that she loves just as Tristan did. Truly. We'll go, we'll let you go on this every year. I do something that is unwelcome potentially and impossible, which is I ask you to tease where you're going next. And then inevitably, you do a great job. We can't figure it out. And then like 48 hours later, it's announced. So there's this beautiful little lacunae between that and I wonder if you have anything prepared to tease us with. Yeah. I'm going to disappoint you this year, because often I do know right around now. June is generally when we find out, because we start shooting in August. But we are not shooting in August this year. We've been pushed back a little bit, really only for scheduling, it's going to make a lot more sense to our year and our planning for the network, not just our own show. And that's a great thing, but it means that no one has told me anything. This isn't like, that isn't a hint in itself, like when they do, remember, I wish I had better info. All I know is that we will shoot. We will make another season. And that's all I care about. I still have a job, which is awesome. This isn't like the year they do. And every year, it's the cherry on top, you know what I mean, you can't, you can't take it for granted. The year they delayed the World Cup just because they were, it was in Qatar and it was, they had to do it in the winter. This isn't that. This isn't Top Chef Middle East. You're not trying to give us a hint. No, we're not. Oh, but that is an amazing reference. Okay. But it is not dissimilar, but it is the truth. Okay. All right. I'm going to trust you on that. Yeah. We're eager to find out when it's announced. Give me. Need to. It does. Maybe we'll give you time to promote your book and maybe we can talk again more broadly about things then. Personally, it really let, it allows, well, first of all, it allows all of us to have a summer for the first time in years instead of cutting it, you know, early and taking off from my family. And it's going to allow me a much easier fall because I'm launching my book and going on the tour. So that's like my own personal. Yeah. And it's going to let us actually plan a couple of great things. I hope to make sure that this season is the best it can be. Well, I hope so too as the unofficial audience consultant. Yes. Gail, thank you. So you're always so generous with your time. Thank you. Another year of the books. Thank you. I know you want to think about. [MUSIC]
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