Gabrielle Backman on Why Partner Selection Shapes Everything | Teamtailor Partnerships

Alright, welcome back to the partnership mastermind podcast. I'm your host, Chris LeVaw. I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by Gabrielle Bachmann, currently head of partnerships at Team Taylor and one of the clearest examples of a real operator in the space. Someone who's actually built teams, scaled partner revenue, improved performance across markets. What I really like about Gabrielle is that she seems to care equally about two things that don't always show up together, which is serious commercial results and people leadership, which is something we love on this show. So today we're going to get into the real stuff. We're going to talk about how partnerships earns internal trust and stop playing the victim card. We're going to talk about what actually makes a great partner manager, how to build high performing teams across different markets and how to draw accountability. Gabrielle, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Excited to be here. Amazing. Well, look, I'm absolutely thrilled for this interview. I've only known you for a short time, but you've been super impressive from day one and just seemed like a cool person. You have even in our prep, telling the story about how you got into partnerships, rocking your all black suit in New York and 30 degree weather. All of these things are just showing up in a really cool way. But we started each episode off with what we call the Fast Five, which is five quick hitting questions just to give you an opportunity to warm up in our audience to get a chance to know you better. So I'll ask you one question at time and just first thing that comes to your mind. You ready for that? Amazing. Let's go. All right. First one. In creeping your LinkedIn profile, I noticed you had a few recommendations and endorsements for some of the folks you work with. And one of your LinkedIn recommendations calls you a force of nature. So I'm curious, which force of nature are you? It could be tornado, wildfire, you know, ice fat. Like what force of nature do you typically show up as that work? It's a really fun question. And I would like to say ice fat because that's like one of my biggest passions in life. I do that to different press. But it definitely has to be freight train, I think. I think I'm quite good at holding a clear direction. I never stop moving. And I think working or having worked for really fast growing companies in need to have like, you need to know where you're going. So I think you have to be that. I love that ice path is great with freight train. I think everyone listen and buckle up because we've got a freight train of an episode coming. I love that. Okay. Next one for you. What gets a faster yes from you internally? A crisp partner plan, a strong metric or a really good bottle of red? Oh, I mean, can I, I mean, I don't know if that I could be select bottle of red. So maybe it has to be probably red bottom red combined with a strong metric. Can I say that? Yes, you definitely can. Yeah. Yeah. It would be those two in close competition with one another. Fair enough. Fair enough. And I love that. And your metrics oriented nature will show up later on in the episode. So no surprise in that one. Okay. Next up you've led teams across markets that being like regionally around the globe. I'm curious. What's harder? Making a broken partner motion or fixing a low energy team when you're in a remote world. In my experience, always a low energy team. I think the emotion it takes structure and dedication, but it can be silly. Fakes, I think a low energy team takes a lot of effort. Yeah. Exactly. Especially when you're in a remote world. I would, I would certainly agree with that as well. Just less of less of it is in your control compared to a broken partner motion. Okay. Cool. Next one for you. This is always a fun one. Let's just say you had a warning label for you as a manager. What would it say? And while you think to give mine, it would be a cannibal, like be accountable or be gone, right? Which is like anyone who's ever worked with me knows the number one thing I expect is accountability. Because if you have accountability, then I can work with you. We can challenge each other. Everything can be okay, even in the tough times. So it's like be accountable. You just won't be a part of the team. So that's my warning label. Curious what yours would be. Oh, this is a really good one. I think it would be moves fast, expects a lot. And I think I think I'm quite impatient as a person. And I have to really balance that out with like bringing people along with me, making sure that they're just not pushing, pushing me forward. So I would probably go with that. Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's the freight train. So you're living up to the, to the building. All right. Last one here. Let's just say you could instantly fix one thing in partnerships forever. That's snap of your fingers. Poor partner selection. We can turn a buy in or low partner manager accountability. Which one would you choose? And you can choose a separate one, if you'd like as well. But just like what's one thing you could wave a magic wand? It would be eliminated as a problem. I think it would be poor partner selection. For me, a lot of problems start with that. So if you have low accountability, it kind of stems from, from that, if you have no credibility internally, it also stems from not working with the right partners. So I think that would be it for me. Yeah. We have a lot of similarities. I, and all of their programming in the mastermind community, I teach that all the time. And I say, hey, look, of all the leading dominoes that you have to get right, you know, designing your ideal partner profile, which then leads into the partners you select. I think that arguably is the biggest decision you make because it impacts who you hire on your own team, how you collaborate internally. The resources you ask, the, the motions you run. So I think it really is one of those key leading dominoes. If you get it wrong, it's hard to like put the toothpaste back in the tube, so to speak. So I resonate with that a lot. All right, bonus question for you on the fast five. If Gabrielle wasn't in partnerships and wasn't crushing it around the globe as a freight train, and you weren't even in the business role, just money wasn't a thing. What would you be doing with your life? 100%. And I know this because I get asked a lot 100% would be a politician 100%. I love politics. I love debating. I love to watch a good debate. I'm, yeah, I think you can see it gets my juices flowing. So I do a lot of debating. I do a lot of convincing, so I am a right spot. That would definitely be a second career for me. And something I still hope is a retired person. I get to venture into a hobby politics. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that first in. And my mom's a politician herself. And so I can see that in her kind of end of career. So I can see that for myself as well. So we'll see if we can spark some healthy debates through this conversation. Maybe we can align that later. I love that. I love that. Okay, cool. Now we're going to get into our first segment, which is always origin story. We start here with all guests because we all just have very random kind of entry points into partnerships. So I'd love to rewind a bit with you and understand your path because I knew it wasn't. I knew partnerships was the thing. You know, you stumbled into partnerships from the sales side and then clearly fell in love with it fast. So my question is, what was it about the work you were doing in partnerships in that Swedish role that really just clicked for you so hard where you're like, wow, like I could see myself staying in this role for a number of years. Yeah, I think this really comes down to like the way that I've lived my life because I have moved around and I've done a lot of different things. I even went to flight attendant for a couple of years to try and get like traveling out of my system. So I think I'm addicted to learning, experiencing, building new things. So when I moved into partnerships, I was like, wow, there's a job where you can do all of that in one role. So I think for me, it's a, it is the place where I can stay put for a longer period of time and still feel mentally stimulated, challenged, excited. So I think the variety and the complexity of the role is what drew me in. Yeah, love that. You keep coming more interesting by the minute flight attendant to get that out of your system. So you just really are a doer. But I like what you said about, you know, the stimulation of the partnerships role. I myself struggle to like stay focused on certain things for so long. But I think what I love about partnerships is, you know, you're not just in a dynamic environment in your own company, which is probably a startup, but you also get to work with all these other companies. So it's like you're working for a lot of companies, even though like you have one employer. So I love that. I love that element as well. Cool. Alright. So then we always ask as a follow on early kind of career mistakes in partnerships. And for you, you said one of those mistakes was treating partnerships a bit too much like sales, you know, wasted time on the wrong partners. So I'm curious, what did those early mistakes you made in partnerships teach you that maybe still shapes how you operate today? Yeah, I think I think I went in to kind of play the statistics, which is similarly to how I approach sales and kind of uncovered very quickly that this is not going to work in this line of work. And so I think what I really learned is that you need to be more in kind of a recruiter mindset or a leadership mindset in order to make partnerships successful. And I think that's something that still kind of clings into how I, you know, lead my teams, how I train my reps. So I think the similarities between working as a leader and, you know, operating a successful portfolio is my biggest kind of takeaway from those early mistakes that I made. Spokey speaking to a lot of partners that have nothing to do with what I was trying to do at the time. Yeah. Trust me. I can't, I can't have much time. I've wasted doing, doing exactly that. So that's a nice segue into the next section, which is what we're calling selling partnerships internally. And this is a hot topic on this show because, and we're going to talk later on about the victim mindset, but this idea that like, look, you know, we can't just make excuses that just because partnerships is maybe an emerging newer function at a company that we should just expect everything just to be handed to us. Right. So like you really do need to sell partnerships internally. And you've said specifically that partnerships needs to become business centric. And I really like that framing, not partner centric. So curious, Like what does it mean? Is that actually mean in practice to become a business-centric unit? I think it really begins with understanding the business that you're working for and what your different business leader or the different stakeholders leading this business, what they care about. And I think similarly to selling a product, right, we go in and we identify the pain and we build up that business case for the customer to buy your solution. I think very similarly we need to treat and go about it the same way internally, right? So understanding what are the metrics that really matters from a business objective and how do I make sure that partnership is a part of that success or a contributor towards those success metrics that I communicate in a way where partnership is seen as a key strategy and not just as something kind of on the side. So I think that's really, really important to learn that skill because otherwise it becomes very difficult. Yeah, and I love that and we're going to get deeper into that. I think one of the challenges for like the IC, like individual contributor and early, you know, even senior IC level is, I don't know if they quite understand, you know, how decisions are made at the leadership level when it comes to like deploying budgets so to speak. I think there's this, and I was guilty of this as well earlier in my career, but I think there's this naive sense that all of these companies have like infinite resources and they're just, they're just like choosing to give more to sales arbitrarily and choosing to give more to product and marketing and there's just so much to go around. But, you know, I think especially in your position when you're in the leadership circle, there's only so much budget to go around. You know, yes, the leadership team is chasing growth, but they're also about minimizing risks, right? And they want to invest in things that have a high level of predictability, right? And a clear plan that ladders up to the global strategy. So does that resonate with you where maybe even you were maybe an IC before you got into more senior positions, just not having this clear understanding of how do budget decisions get made and why am I on the partnerships team maybe not getting more resource than I thought? Did that kind of show up for you at all early in your career or maybe you see that with your own team? Yeah, I think I definitely see that with my own team and also with many partnership leaders, right? And I think when you get to a certain level and you've been through enough conversations to understand that there's nothing personal about me not getting a certain investment or it's really simple mathematics, right? They have a certain full of money and as you say, they need to invest in where they think they're going to have the highest return on investment or have the lowest risk. So I think when you start realizing that and start strategizing, okay, how can I make it happen with these conditions? I've got more impact as a leader when I realized and when I started really putting time into learning how to communicate like that. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a simple tip for anyone listening. Like don't be afraid to talk to the people in the know, people on your finance team as an example, like building comp plans, building revenue share agreement plans, like building it with them, not just building building building and then sending it to them and saying, hey, can you approve this? It's like, well, no, like they don't know anything about this. Like build with the key people and get into those conversations so you can learn. So the next question for you is about how do you actually understand if partnerships is truly being seen as a GTM motion versus just this nice to have supporting function, which is to say, imagine I hired you as a consultant to come look into my company. And let's just say we're a established company. We've had a partnerships program for a couple years now and I just say, hey, Gabrielle, can you come in and just take a look? Talk to everyone you need to look at all the numbers. How would you really know if our partnerships team is truly being seen as a GTM motion? Right? Like what are the things you would look for? How would you know that we're really being well respected and dependent on, so to speak? Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think what I typically look out for for myself, because I work with a lot of go-to-market teams in a lot of different markets, right? So, and the level of penetration or like credibility we have is different from market to market. And the way I try to assess it is, are we being considered as a strategy rather than a lead channel? So I think if I speak to a leader who's like, oh, I want leads from you or that's the only thing that they look when they look at me, this they want to have pipeline and leads. Then I know that I don't have credibility within that stakeholder. I know I'm not considered as part of the go-to-market strategy. And I think when they start asking questions like, how can you influence the win rate, how can you work together to increase the efficiency of this segment? Or how can we, you know, when we start getting more credited for all of the impact that you can have on so many different things that you do from a go-to-market level, then I think you've done a good job in being treated like part of the go-to-market motion. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And that's a nice follow up for this next question, which is, you know, what, that's a two parter. What do you, what would you recommend to any leader listening, so any manager, head of partnerships, VP partnerships? What's the number one thing they can do to really earn trust internally and build that alignment? I'll let you answer that. And then the follow up will be, what can I see is be doing, right? Because I think they can do a lot more than they think they can to also help the whole function earn that trust. But let's just start with the senior persona. What's the number one tip you have for them to like really build that trust? I think, you know, stop spending so much time explaining what partnership says, but showcasing and doing. So like moving, explaining to demonstration, like, you know, doing a lot of trainings, if, oh, I don't understand how we're going to bring in an integration partner, or I don't know how I'm going to work with an implementation, parking demonstrate. And every time it is demonstrated, shout about it, showcase it to the right people. So I think that's one tip that I would give. From an IC perspective, I think, you know, ICs are part of the go to market team, right? They work and they operate a lot with the go to market team. So I tried to be really cautious in training my team to communicate with impact. So instead of saying, oh, we ran one webinar, we did, we signed this partner. It's like, how are we moving the needle from a go to market perspective? No, we didn't do one webinar. We generated X amount of pipeline, we generated X amount of leads. We decided to run after this partner to unlock this vertical from a go to market perspective. So communicate with impact, start with the outcome, always have an outcome in mind. Otherwise, you're, you're, you're just doing things and you're communicating about things that no one, and I'm going to sound harsh, but no one really cares about. So I think it's really about creating a context where people want to listen and appreciate what you work on. Yeah, I mean, that was beautiful. That's definitely my love language. And like, basically, it's like translating the BS so to speak it because as you said, like, no one cares about the webinars, the top of funnel metrics that are relevant to partnerships. They care about, you need a universal language, right? And everyone on sales and on the revenue, or they're speaking in pipeline, they're speaking in MQL's, SQL's, closed one revenue, wind rates. So I coach my team the same way. It's like, look, we can talk in dialogue about leading indicators that are like partnerships centric. That's okay. But every time we're speaking outside of our little private partnerships, walls, like, we need to like, be totally speaking a different language, right? Which is the language of the revenue team. And that's how they'll understand the impact to your point. And that's how you'll ultimately build trust. So I think this is like a really important segment that we'll emphasize afterwards because that is the key. Like that really is the key. And the other thing I'll say about the ICs is, is, yes, speak in the impact and outcomes, but also, like, don't be afraid to overcommunicate, right? Like, it doesn't mean you're like bragging about it across the social channels. But if you're at a mid to large size work, it's easy to get diluted. So like, you really do need to bang the drum, right? Like in the winds slack channel and all the sales folks and marketing folks are like beating the drum for their own winds. Like, I think the IC layer is really important in like evangelizing partnerships across the company with real outcomes. Does that resonate with you? Not just having speaking an impact, but also communicating it and broadcasting that in a, you know, respectable way. 100%. And I think that's something that we're really trying to work more on. And I think sharing the winds, but also sharing like the progress as well. So like it might feel like, you know, sometimes partnerships can be long term. It's very kind of, it can take some time, but you always have positive progress. So I think sharing that as well and really showcasing to the team the positive impact that you're having in the market is hyper, hyper important. And there are many, many opportunities during the course of a week to do that and to really help create that relationship and that relevance in top of mind or the go to marketing is absolutely. I love that. I love that. And that's a nice segment to our next segment, which is on building high performing partner managers and teams, which is something that you and I share in common that we're very passionate about, which is one of the reasons I'm so excited for this conversation. And so the first question is, you know, you said you hire and coach partner managers like leaders, which I thought that was really interesting phrasing. So like, what does a great partner manager have in common with a great leader? And how do you approach coaching in that way? Yeah. So I think something that I realize working as an IC, moving into leadership is that managing a high performing portfolio is extremely similar to managing a high performing team. So I think when you're recruiting partners very similarly, do I want to recruit this partner to my star portfolio, knowing that you have limited amounts of seats on your book? And then the motion is very similar. You need to set clear expectation, incentivize overperformance. You need to coach. You need to motivate the right behaviors, address under performance. So it's very, very similar. A manager rep relationship to a kind of a partnership manager and partnership manager stakeholder relationship in my opinion. So I feel like the way that we've been able to do it. to see that success and to take those tough conversations and to set that expectation has been instrumental to them being able to drive success. And it also makes them more selective when they are recruiting for partners. So if they think about it not from, I'm gonna acquire a new partner, but I'm gonna recruit a partner to my start team. All of a sudden, your mindset shifts and you think about that qualification a bit more thoroughly because you have to invest a lot of time for that partner to be successful. I like the analogy between managing a book of partners versus managing a team, so to speak, of ICs. That definitely resonates. So that follows to the next question, which is around hiring, which, I don't know about you, but I find of all the things that goes into being a leader in partnerships, hiring is just, not surprisingly, one of the hardest things to do, it's high risk, high reward. If you get it right, your life is so much easier, if you get it wrong, your life is miserable to put it lightly. So when you're hiring, what signals tells you then that someone can actually drive a high performing book versus just talk to good game and interviews? Because I feel like most people that you're interviewing, 'cause your recruiting teams probably already filtered a bunch of the lower quality candidates. So the people you get on an actual interview are probably pretty solid. So the question for you is how do you distinguish the noise versus someone who can actually show up when it's crunch time? What are the things that you have, how do you approach interviews that affect visitors when I'm asking? - Yeah, it's an as you say, like I've also made by bad hires, it's notoriously difficult. And there's only so much you can do in an interview process to control that, but I think some of the things that I really look at quantifying is there a level of ability to take ownership and to feel that sense of ownership for their own success, their own portfolio, how to prioritize time. As you said, we wear a lot of different hats, we have a lot of distractions. So how do they, what's their ability to prioritize their time? Something I also really qualify for is their ability to say no and to enter tough conversations. So I think this is detrimental for success being a PM. If you're scared of saying no, or if you don't, it's like a manager. If you don't have a performance conversation with a low performing rep and you just let that investor, investor, investor, that's gonna be a big challenge. And the problem's just growing and growing and growing very similarly, I need PMs to address that. And if they, if they're not getting the outcome that they're looking for to reprioritize their time and jump on something else where you have more momentum. So I think those are the kind of three core things. And I would say also combine with influence, the ability to influence people to run alongside you is extremely important in this role. We work with everything team in the whole organization. If you're not able to get people to run with you, how can you move mountains for your partners? How can you, how can you basically influence and drive the success that needed within a partnership? - Yeah, I think those are great things to test, especially on the ownership side and influence side. I think those are, those are huge. My next question for you, and again, it's something that I struggle to tease out in the interview environment is just like stress testing them and like getting them into like a real simulated environment. Because you can't hire them and give them like two weeks in the interview cycle and then say, okay, it didn't work out. You can get them into probation, but then you got to actually hire them. So my question for you is, let's just say I'm a candidate that you're really excited about and relate stage. We're getting pretty deep into it. What are the things that you're really doing for those shortlisted candidates to really simulate how would they act in a certain situation? Whether it's, maybe you do a case study, but do you go farther than that? I'm always trying to learn from leaders like yourself, different tricks and tips, 'cause you can get the reference letters, you can give them a case study, but that doesn't actually show me how you would actually show up in like a real environment that really matters. So for a late stage candidate where you're getting close to feeling good about them, like what are some of the tactics that you use to like really make sure that they have a lower chance of failure? Really good question. I think, I mean, we do center quite a lot around the case and that's the biggest or the longest interview that we have. And I think we try to treat that interview as quite, we're quite challenging. We do a live discovery and then we give, we make sure we give some harsh feedback, we make sure we try to simulate some trigger points to try and in person during the interview, get into those things that are quite difficult to test for. Like how are, how receptive are they for feedback? How, if I throw this out, are they gonna go into it? So I think trying to simulate those conversations in the interview would be my tip to try and build a forum where that happens rather than trying to test for it happening. Now, I'm not sure if I explained that. - You know, you were. - Yeah. So that's how we try to structure it. - Yeah, that's good. I think that's good. The key takeaway for me and anyone else listening is just, I think just like more time. Or I think that's the mistakes I made earlier on. Like you just wanna get that candidate in, especially if it's like a backfill for a critical role, but I think you do need more time. It's okay to have like a several hour like examination, so to speak, even pulling other people to join for parts of that as well. Like, you know, I've had like my team join and other sales leadership join as well for like more senior ICs. So, then that's a great takeaway. Cool. Now let's flip into some more tactical stuff. So this next segment's on the playbook methodology and metrics that make the function real, which I know is something that you're really fired up about. And so you, in our prep, you've said, partnership leaders leave too much to chance and hide behind, you know, partnerships takes time, right? Which is a super spicy take that I love, right? So like, answer this. Like what should a real playbook or methodology actually make visible then? - I think it should remove luck to some extent. If at least it should uncover a repeatable motion, that is a good investment case. And a lot of our partnership is momentum, so it's difficult to define, but a lot of it we can define. We can define what a good partner looks like. We can define what a good activation means. We can define what success looks like in each of those stages. And then what we cannot control is maybe when we get to that stage for each and every partner, but we do have the ability to collect metrics and draw averages out of these. So I should be able, if I'm competing against a sales leader wanting to get more AEs and they tell them, you know, by this time, you'll have this much pipeline and you'll have this much revenue. And I'm standing there saying, hey, invest in me because I have something cool going on over here. Like that's not just not going to cut it. So I believe that you need to have, you need to create predictability and something that is unpredictable. - Yeah, I mean, look, that is beautiful. Like I talk about playbooks all the time. I've been talking about them for over five years now in partnerships and I'm not even just blown and smoked. I think the way you described playbook is probably the best I've seen, which is really like removing chance. Like I never said those words, but I've always wanted to say it in that way. So I really love how you frame it. And the predictability piece is key. You said it, like, look, if you're going to your CEO and CFO and let's just say the marketing leader generated a million in pipeline in the last year, I'm just making that up. The partnership leader also generated a million in pipeline. Let's just say they both contributed that. And then the marketing leader, the CEO says, great, how did you do it? And then the marketing leader says, oh, I did this, this, this, this, this, this. And this is how what I'm going to do with more money. So I go, great, and then you ask the partnership, how did you generate your million in pipeline? And they're like, well, I got this one lucky deal from this partner and then we did some webinar stuff, kind of got fluky there and then this, that and the other thing. And it's like, well, who would you give more money to? Right? So to Gabrielle's point, you know, control all the variables you can. Obviously, some things are random. Like when will a partner randomly hit you up with like a really juicy referral, et cetera, et cetera? Like things are somethings are to control, but like, what can you control, you know, understand the dials there and then like, systematically turn them until you get the outcomes that you're looking for us. But anyways, predictability is everything. So then the final question around this one, Gabrielle, is, is what can I see start to do differently to start to work towards better predictability? Because I think that is absolutely one of the thing that holds them back, not just from a productivity perspective, but from a promotion and career progression perspective, whether you're trying to go from I.C. to senior I.C. or certainly from senior I.C. to people management. It's a look, you've hit quota for the last couple quarters. I'm thrilled. I love that, but it's, you can't really explain how, so to speak, to, you know, fully. And if I was to give you two X more budget, I don't have confidence that you could turn that into four X more revenue, right? So like, what can I see is be doing differently to start to get more predictable? Know your metrics. Stay really close to your portfolio. I think it would be a really good partnership manager. You need to be understanding of the metrics that drives your results. And then secondly, I want, I think, when I speak to my team, I try to help them to make the intangible more tangible. So if you have a lead quota or a revenue quota to hit this quarter, okay, what pipeline do we have? What pipeline do we need? How many leads does that equate to? Who in your book do we believe are going to have the momentum needed to get us there? So instead of just saying, okay, we need to do this. We need to get into the details of like, these are the partners I'm focusing on. This is what I think is going to take me to my goals. And if it doesn't, you need to have a backup plan. So I think the way that we work with it is, We have. a portfolio between 40 to 60 partners depending on portfolio complexity and then we run keeping 20 of those active at all times so that you have an orchestra to work with. So partners fall in and out of activation, that's a natural way of working but you need to have others that you can like funnel up. So how do you orchestrate that momentum with partners and make your own success tangible and real? Another beautiful segment. I love that. And so this is a follow-up nerding out here on the metrics and forecasting. What numbers then specifically, you kind of reference to a couple obvious ones like on the leads and whatnot but what numbers specifically show the ICs personally stay closest with to help move their book of business. Could be leading, could be lagging. Yeah, I think first they should stay close to all the numbers that all of the other teams care about. So if they want to work with sales, they need to stay close to sales numbers. So you should be on top of the metrics that people in your business cares about. Don't reinvent the wheel when it comes to business metrics that goes outside of the partnership scope. I think when it comes to the partnership side, they should be looking at, okay, what is my time to activation for certain partners leads naturally and a good metrics in terms of activity, revenue, a lagging metric but something you should be keeping on the lookout for and then active partners is something that we work with a lot. So we try to simplify the KPIs as much as we can. So what we're trying to do is really build a solid book that have active partners that results into leads and pipeline. So those are the metrics that we look at the most. Yeah, that's a really healthy mix of both leading and lagging indicators which is another topic. I think more ICs need to like really understand like there's leading indicators that show up in real time and are useful for like real time decisions and then there's lagging indicators that are more like bigger picture. So one final question on this segment. If I host and this is around like what's like one really important metric that you personally follow. So let's just let me put it this way and this is a phone run. Let's just say you decide you know what you're going on a three-month vacation and you're not going to be plugged in it where you can't see anything for three months and then you come back and then I say Gabrielle I will I will show you one metric or trend line from the last three months for your team to give you a hint of how they've been doing and I only give you one metric right and it could be any metric or trend line and you I will tell you and then that will tell you as much as you can know about how the team has been doing in your absence like what metric or trend line would you go to you only get one oh it's so difficult you can see I'm so conflicted I'm like what should I pick um I think it would have to be because in the context where I live and sit with the team right now we would have to be active partners interesting yeah I think it would need to be active partner 50 because if I pick pipeline it's going to be too skewed if I pick some of the other metrics I have markets that are in very different levels and because I have a very globalized team with very different market maturity so I think that would be the metric where I could tell across the globe it would be most indicative of performance I like that I like that I think that's a great great candidate some of the ones I always think about is sometimes it's it's meeting activity level with my partner managers if that sometimes that's not as relevant but like I want to know that they're active and that usually correlates pretty well with like all the other positive metrics I also think like qualified deal creation not not pipeline value because I think that is like you get a 100K deal and a 20k deal and excuse the math but it's like how many qualified deals are we get as a lead and that being qualified end up being accepted by sales into the sales pipeline like into the sales pipeline sales accepted is critical so like that's probably another one that comes to mind but I like the active partner because it kind of gives you a pulse on like how vibrant or not is the portfolio so to speak so I like that a lot all right let's go into the next segment which is around leading across markets without kind of losing control so to speak and so one thing I really find interesting what your particular role and the team as a as a whole is that it is global it's dispersed so to speak in your leading different teams at different maturity levels so my first question for you is what gets misunderstood about trying to run one partnerships function across market at totally different stages and maturity I think what's often misunderstood is that you if you have it figured out in one market you have it figured out in all markets and yeah basically I'm leading a team with with you know reps in all areas of the world with go to market teams in all areas of the world we are quite the large team and just because we have it figured out and we are soaring and being super high performing in one market that does not mean that it's the same in all markets right so I think that there's a common misconception that if you that it really varies it's like running 15 different teams in one team basically yeah it's my take on that yeah and how do you say that that's interesting so how do you from a practical perspective how do you literally lead across these regions like there's different time zones do you have like a biweekly all hands for all the partnership reps or do you have to like regionalize that like as nitty gritty as you can get because there's a lot of folks that listen here who are there are in your situation right now or are trying to get in a situation where they're like I've managed a team domestically within the US or wherever but I've never like managed teams across different time zones and it's a huge challenge I'm curious like literally like how do you actually like kind of lead the ships so to speak yes and it's a it's a it's a big challenge I don't know if I have the cookie cutter answer here but we when I first started I was leading the team on my own which was really difficult because you have a pack of shanien on one end of the spectrum and then you have us latam on the other end of the spectrum so basically you everyone's working there we have someone working at all times so it's really difficult to kind of be in the nitty gritty and in the weeds now we split the team into two so we have one portion of the team reporting into one team lead kind of a pack and and a parts of Europe and then we have one portion of the team latam us and also parts of Europe right and then we host a monthly all hands to review kind of the multi-performance we do some recognitions we talk about what good looks like really celebrates and wins some challenges he learnings from the metrics and whatnot and then on the operational side they have separate meetings actually and we did have a joint but we found it quite difficult now they are they are almost 18 people so we find it quite difficult because people are not comfortable sharing challenges and really getting into conversation helping each other forward in those very large groups so yeah it's a little bit easier now that they are smaller that we get more of a productive forum happening and sharing among the reps. Yeah thanks for sharing that that was actually going to be one of my next questions which is how do you balance integration and like cohesion where it's like they feel like they're a part of this like unit because you can easily feel siloed in partnerships because usually the sales teams like five to ten x bigger so the question is like how do you balance making them out like hey look you're all in partnerships roles even if you're in different regions different seniorities so like we should stick together but that being said segmenting enough where it's like you know you're able to be directionally productive in like close-knit environments like team meetings etc so you know how do you kind of that's the final question how do you continuously work on that balance of you know making everyone kind of feel connected right because you're all in similar roles but also like parsing hey look like you know the the Europe team you know should have their own kind of dialogue and own like safe lane so just be how do you approach that fine balance so I think essentially the way that I look at it is yes they are part of partnerships because we're their craft so like we're their peers we can help them in terms of everything partnerships related but the way that I try to kind of encourage the pms and also when I speak to the to the country managers of the region we operate and if they're very much a part of the go-to market teams oh yeah yeah you know they have two on a team ownership and very often they interact more with the regional team than they do with us and so I think it's really about having like a low sense of or like having you don't feel threatened that your team members are part of some someone else is still more working with other senior stakeholders I think when networks well it can only be beneficial for their career development for for for our performance as well so trying to facilitate that rather than trying to be like you know partnerships partnerships and but then of course having us more like that consulting function to really come and get inspired to get more learning is about how to take that in localize it and win more in in a local market I think it's it's the way that I try to orchestrate it and then you see yourself in that but that is that is how they're working with it at least yeah yeah I actually yeah I like that a lot of you know them being closer with the regional teams I think that's for the best I think you would agree it's like look you know a huge topic and partnerships right now is you know partnerships teams and sales teams being more closely connected and so I think the closer they can work with those teams the better obviously you want them to connect with the rest of the global partnerships team but I think that's a good proxy already we're gonna get into one of our last second last segments which is all about strong opinions and really this concept of like a victim mindset and so you have a few takes here that I think are really sharp that I want to dig into and specifically you said that part Partnerships has become somewhat of a victimized function, which I love that framing, couldn't agree more. So let's just start with what do you mean by that? And how do you think that mindset is hurting people in partnerships? What I mean is I think a lot of partnership leaders, especially, or even working as an IC, I think this goes back to what we were speaking about in the beginning. People don't really understand how budget decisions are made. They form this perception that we're not investing in partnerships. It's snowballs because then that becomes their whole reality. That we're just not in a credit function. Where it really maybe comes down to like, are we doing everything we can to become that accredited function and to get our seat at the table and to be accredited for what we're trying to, in comparison, with the other go-to-market function. So I think growing and becoming, or quite of a new go-to-market function, if you will, at least in the sort of the retrospect, a lot of people have an experience like that in the baggage and try to, and I think it's quite difficult sometimes when you switch partners. If you've been cheated on, you bring some of that into your new relationship. I kind of feel like it's a little bit the same. Here, people bring that onwards to the next company. And already before they've had a chance to prove differently, they go in with the mindset, like people don't really are saying something, get it, or leadership don't understand what partnership starts. I think that's hurt the narrative and the credibility of the function. Yeah, I totally agree. And that looked at is a strong take. But I think it's-- because I mean, look, if you go on LinkedIn right now, you'll probably see seven different posts playing the victim game. I hate to say it, but most of the LinkedIn fodder right now is partnerships are so misunderstood, et cetera, et cetera. It's like, well, who's fault is that? Like, sure. We would all love to work at a company where the CEO and the CRO just like fully understood partnerships, but like, they understand revenue and they understand leverage and they understand making good investments. If that happens to be partnerships, then great, but your job as a leader is to convince them why. And the other thing I hate to say, and I say this, having made this mistake myself just to be honest, is like, in the interview cycle, well, you need to stress test that a bit. Like, you ultimately, no one put a gun to your head and said, you need to join this company. So like, what did you learn about them after you joined that you didn't pick up on at all during the interview cycle? So like, that's the final question on this part, Gabriella, is what can partnership leaders then who are playing the victim game a little too much? What can they do in their next interview cycle to perhaps sniff this out before they just blindly accept these jobs and then in three months later, start complaining to their friends about how their company doesn't give a shit about partnerships? I think they need to ask what type of go-to-market motion they have. And I think that if they have a sales let go to market motion, you should have a bell ringing in your head that this is a sales let go to market motion. So therefore, I'm going to have to build a case that's stronger than sales and enhances, puts fuel to the fire, and becomes a really strong investment case alongside the direct channel. Just really difficult to do. But I think you can do it, right? But if you want the partnerships to be at the front and center, the investment case, I think you should look for either a partner let go to market motion or a, I think, another good tell is to go to a company that sells enterprise. So I think the higher up market you get, the more important partnerships becomes to get enterprise attention, partners is always involved. And if they're not, I mean, then you have great, you have a golden nugget, right? Then you can come in and you can have an immense amount of impact. So I think if you want somewhere where partnership is highly recognized, go to a partner let go to market function or look for an enterprise business. And if you don't have that, be prepared to make a good case to stand alongside sales. I think that's really practical. I think like how is the, is your, not just enterprise product, which I love, but like, can it, like, is there enough hours for like implementation, partners to build a business on top of that, right? Like, is it, like, if you're an SMB SaaS, there's no implementation work and you have a low average contract value. Like, it's tough because no one can implement it so that you can't work with service and implementation partners and system integrators. You can barely even work with referral partners because your revshare isn't going to be enough. It's going to be like a cup of coffee and revshare. So like, there's like a Goldilocks zone of like, you know, company ICP, so to speak, that like is conducive to like, really strong partner economics. But then the other point, as well as we're talking about, what can people interviewing do to like, sniff things out a bit better? I think you should also just ask the leadership, like, hey, like, what are your expectations? And this sounds like a table stakes question, but like, literally, you're hiring me, you know, within one year, what, what, what must be true for you to go to your buddies and say, wow, Gabrielle was just a slam dunk hire. Or like, what, what, what would you be envisioning at that 12 month mark? And then once I have that clarity on that, I can build a work bath path to six months to three months to one month and make sure that I'm like aligned to that. But I feel like we're in the interview cycle, we're too excited about getting an offer and getting a paycheck that we don't ask the tough questions. Right. Does that resonate with you, Gabrielle? You know what I'm sitting and thinking about? This is like the number one question when you do partner discovery, right? So I think this is so, so transferable that, you know, you're not, you're not, you're basically qualifying your next opportunity the same way you would be qualifying a good partner. So I think take what you've learned in your job, apply it. Also, when you qualify your next opportunity, and I think you'll probably be better than the average qualifier applying for that specific role. I totally agree. One of my, one of my best mentors always taught me like aim to disqualify things, not aim to qualify things. It sounds pessimistic, but it works. So it's like when I'm hiring, it's like, I'm going in, I don't care how beautiful your resume is. I'm aiming to disqualify you, right? And I'm just, and so I'm asking the tough questions, right? And I'm thrilled if you like passes high by. Same with partners, partners the same way. I go into a partner disco call and I'm like, oh Gabrielle, she, you know, she seems like she's got a great team, but like I'm going to say no. And then I'll ask the tough questions and then I'm like, you know what, damn, like she passed every test with flying colors I have to work with this person. So I like, I like how you've brought it to the picking a partner analogy. Okay, last segment and then we'll get you or right on time is the human side of ambitious leadership. And I wanted to end on leadership because your profile and the way you talk about kind of building teams would also building up the people suggest you care a lot about on the people side. And what things that's interesting is you've had a lot of people follow you from one company to the next, which I think is like a hallmark signal of great leadership because it shows that people really care. So the first question for you here Gabrielle is, what do you think people need most from a leader when the standards are so high and the work can be intense? Like what do people really need from a leader in that type of environment? I think most people want to feel heard, appreciated, listen to, cared for. So I really think it comes down to the kind of, individual basic needs. So I think making time for your reps, investing in listening to them, understanding how they are feeling, not just in work but outside of work, but also showcasing that you actually care about what they, how they, how they do, how they feel, how they perform, how they grow their careers. And because ultimately, they're working for me here and now, but this is just a blimp in their whole career and their whole lives and work as a part of that. So I think in order for us to connect with people, we need to care about their whole, the whole, the whole human, if you will. So I think that's important. I love that. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think that speaks to like the important empathetic kind of side of leadership. Now to flip that, what about the kind of accountable side of leadership? Because you know, I don't know if you're familiar with this book, Radical Candor by Kim Scott, easily one of the books that changed my life the most where she's just like, look, great leadership. It has two main criteria. It's, you know, empathy and caring deeply, which is easier for people to like figure out. But on the other axis, it's challenging directly and driving tough accountability. You know, obviously when it's really uncomfortable, that muscle took me a lot longer to build. In the early days, I was too much of their friend and when things were going great, everyone loves me. And then when performance is slipping and I had to like turn the page, they're like, who the hell is this guy? Like, you know, that's not like what Chris is like. So I'm curious, obviously you care deeply about your team, which is clear. But when performance isn't there, you have some reps perhaps that, you know, they're in a bit of a downturn, so to speak, or maybe they're just not showing up the way that they should be. How do you then put on that accountability hat to kind of challenge directly and try to get things back on track? Because that's definitely, I think you would agree, a bigger challenge than the empathy side. - Absolutely. And I try not to separate the two. I try to lead with clarity and empathy all the time. So I think it's, I think what, when I have succeeded with that, I don't want there to be a accountability me and then empathetic me. I want there to be a line of both always. So I am very direct. I'm very clear. I have very high standards. And I know that about myself. So I need to also, and I also am very empathetic. So I need to have all parts of me at, you know, present at all times. But driving that accountability piece, I feel like it has become more and more easy or it's become easier the more you practice it of course, but I think it also becomes easier when you are good at giving feedback constructively throughout the whole career progression because they see that you're clearly investing in their success and that you're also like that's not something that comes as a surprise, feedback should come all the time. So when you're having that clear, tough conversation with the reps and I think one of my biggest pet peeves is I can work with anyone who really wants to work, but one of my pet peeves is someone that they're not even trying and I think getting into those conversations can be quite tough, but I think an old honesty, it also is beneficial to everyone in the end that you are that super care, but then you can do it in a never-fettic way, listen, making sure that they understand why, how you're going to support them getting there. So I think having both presence at all times is crucial, otherwise I don't think that there could be a high-performance in without both of them. Yeah, I love that. I thought it was beautiful how you basically said, "Hey look, there's just me, there's the empathetic version of me." I have empathy, I also have to be direct, but I don't want those to be two different personas because then that can lead to bad things. I really love how you talked about feedback should be constant. I think that is bang on and that was definitely the mistakes I was making early on where it's noticing these things, I'm noticing behaviors that I should correct within my team, standards, slipping through the cracks, but I'm just like, "Oh, yeah, we're only three weeks away from the quarterly review cycle, so I'll just bring it up then." It's like, the way I was taught is like, "Nothing should be a surprise in your quarterly or annual performance reviews, otherwise something bad happened." Either the IC wasn't accountable or aware enough or you certainly as the leader weren't clear enough in real time, so that totally translates. Let's finish with two questions and these are Gabrielle Centric. Look, based on your LinkedIn profile, you're super busy, you've got travel, family, high stakes, role, big goals, you're growing your team, so there's a lot going on. How have your views on ambition and leadership changed as your life has changed? It's a really good question. I have had to make this operation a bit clearer, because I love everything that I do, and because I get excited about a lot of different things. I need to have very clear boundaries for myself for when I am worked. So between five and seven, I have my daughter, and she's there and then she is the everything to me. I don't look at my phone. I'm not a manager, I'm not a leader, I'm not doing anything else, then invest in my relationship with her. And then the rest of the hours of the day where it's my free time, whether it's my work time, then I get to allocate the way that I want to. Sometimes that involves working in my free time in order for me to get more time to do other things. So I think that is something that has changed, I think certainly after becoming a parent. But then I think as well, it has also pushed me to be, I need to work on my, I have had to work a lot on my self-awareness, because I am one person. I have a lot of stamina, and I can continue on. I think if sometimes it feels like an eternity, so I need to make time for that recharging, really compressing, because I'm also, if we end up burning out, it's not going to serve anyone. So that's something that I also, I think, intentionally with having an increased workload, try to really make time for a prioritized and also spend a lot of time identifying what is it that helps me regulate. And also with having these self-comissations, I need to pair it with being regulated, otherwise it doesn't have a good outcome. Yeah, well thank you for opening up the book and sharing all of that. I think that resonates. I mean, I have a young daughter myself, so all of that really tracks with me. What's clear about you is like you're very intentional. I use the word designing, and I think, I love the word design, like designing the ideal life that you want to live, because I think there's something so intentional about design, where you're really carving your own path. So it seems like you're certainly someone who's really designing the life that they want to live as you've continued to do over your career, which is really cool to see. And then the last question for you in them, we'll wrap up is going back to the leadership piece. When you think about the kind of team that you're looking to build over the next number of years, what do you hope, privately, I know your humble person, but what do you hope people who work with you would say about working under Gabrielle's leadership when it's all said and done? Like in five, 10 years, what are some of the things that you hope are true in terms of what your old past team might have said about working with you? Yeah. I think maybe I would like for them to look at this or look at working under me as a, you know, she pushed me to become better and she helped me get there. So I think essentially if I can help someone to, you know, become better than what they were yesterday and grow their career in a way that they couldn't have, and if I can be taby-powered in creating that story, I think that is what I would like for them to look back on. I don't know if that was very clear, but yeah, super clear. I mean, yeah, it sounds similar to me, which is like, for me, it's like, I just want to help them unlock their full potential, like full potential, not like unlock more potential. Like what is your theoretical max potential? I want to push you. I'm tough as well, like it sounds like you are. I'm going to push you hard because we hire people with huge potential. And it only matters is how much of that potential did you actually realize? For yourself and for our company. So I'm going to push you hard. And so I think for me, I've had people that I've managed in the past that I catch up with from time to time. They're like, they appreciate the challenge more after the fact than they did during the fact, which I, and if I think of my best bosses that I've ever had, they were brutal. They're like brutal, right? Not bad people, but like brutal. And then years later, I'm like, you know what? Like that was, that was the most stimulating growth of my entire career. So does that resonate with you just to wrap up? Yeah, I think I've had a great fortune of having really good managers and mentors in my life. So I think having a sense of like, you know, clarity, high expectations, but with that supporting element underneath it, I think it's crucial right to, to an exercise. So in ways it resonates. And I think it really helping people underneath their potential is really what it's all about. Amen. Well, look, Gabrielle. Thank you so much. This was an power packed hour. Thank you so much for joining the show and I can't wait to get this live. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Well, thank you so much for tuning into the Partnership Mass Mind Podcast. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. And if you like what you heard today, feel free to subscribe.