Future Focus with Evelyn Forde

[Music] Hi everyone and welcome to this podcast, one of a series where we dive into all things apprenticeships, early years in schools. I'm aunt and I support best practice network with developing curriculum content for apprenticeship programs. I'm joined by my fantastic co-hosts Emma and Nick. Emma, why don't you introduce yourself? Hello, I'm Emma and I also work for best practice network as an apprenticeship tutor. I have a real passion for early years and I'm really excited to be here today. So Nick, over to you. Hey everyone, I'm Nick and I'm here to bring some insight from my experience in the world of education and school management. We've got a really interesting discussion lined up for you today, so let's dive straight in. Yeah, absolutely Nick. Today we have a special interview that we're excited to share. We sat down with Evelyn Ford on the theme of future focus to talk about some of the challenges and opportunities within early years and school settings, particularly focusing on send, funding, retention and recruitment and accountability. Emma, would you like to give a little teaser? Yes, it was a really insightful conversation and it really gave us a lot to think about in terms of how we approach early years and school practices in today's involving landscape. And the best part is it's not just about the theory. Evelyn gave us some really practical tips that I think will be really useful for anyone working in education or training. So without further ado, let's straight straight to the interview. Hi everybody and thanks for joining us on this podcast, which has got a specific title of future focus. My name is Antweilsch and I support Best Practice Network with developing the curriculum content for our apprenticeship programs. And I'm joined by Emma. Emma would like to introduce yourself. And hello, I also work for Best Practice Network. I'm one of these delivering apprenticeship tutors and I have the passion for early years. It's a really exciting to be here today. Thank you very much and I'm delighted to welcome our guests today, Evelyn Ford. Evelyn's a senior school leader since 2008 and a head teacher since 2015. Evelyn's a regular contributor to the broader national education debates as a conference speaker, committee member and writer. She won the TES head teacher of the year award in 2020 and was the national president of the Association of School and College leaders, 22 to 23. Her services to education were recognised in the 2021 New Year's Honours list and then in August 2023, Evelyn stepped down from her headship role and is currently undertaking a number of consultancy roles in the education sector and is a trustee for education support, a charity which promotes the well-being of staff in schools. Very, very excited, Evelyn, to see you again. Thanks for joining us and welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm delighted and really looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, me too. We all are. Thank you very much for being and for giving your time. So we're looking at, as I said, the start of our title is Future Focus. This kind of idea of a brighter future that addresses a number of crises and issues we've got in the education sector at the moment. And I thought it's okay if we were to look at sends initially, it's being referred to in various places as a send crisis. The government, it could be seen rightly seeing the lack of send provisions of crisis now. Why do you think that the system is so broken and how might it be fixed? It's me first. Yeah, it's totally. Before I kind of get into the send crisis and the answer, I love the fact that this is a future focus. And I think, you know, with the new government in post, I really think it's an opportunity to look at these really big issues in the sector. And send is a big issue in the sector. And I think what's happened over a number of years is that the demand for support has just continued to grow. But as the need for support has grown, government funding has not kept up. And so we find ourselves in a real challenging situation in schools. And last year alone, there were 576,000 young people on an education healthcare plan. That is a lot of young people who require that additional support. And because the demand has risen so steeply and sharply, without the injection of funding and support, we're finding schools really, really with their back against the wall trying to meet the need of, you know, just the breadth and the complexity of needs, such that your classroom teacher, who is a teacher of send, and we are all teachers of send, actually those specific skills and the support that those young people need, are lacking. We've got council budgets that are, you've got lots of councils going bankrupt. So the funding also, so we can see where there's kind of blocks on so many levels. I think it's incumbent upon the current government to really make this a priority. I'm heartened that it's becoming more of the conversations moving forward, but it will need a real strategic focus, a massive injection of funding in order to meet the needs of all our young people. And that's across phases, you know, ages and the diversity of needs. The government just needs to really listen to the sector. It's beginning to do that, but the pace of change needs to be a bit quicker. Yeah, thank you. I like that point. We would listen to the sector to engage with the sectors and engage the professionals that are delivering the sector specialist. Emma, I know you've got a particular news in early years. Any thoughts? Yes, obviously, we're seeing the struggle right down from the early years where we are really struggling to access funding for children. It's often coming in literally the last term, or even just as a children are moving on to start a section. And I know we've had a really amazing focus here at Best Practice Network where we have been delivering a Senko Level 3 award, which I know has had an impact in the support that is provided by, you know, practitioners in settings, but obviously that's still having that big knock on effect because it's almost like we're not doing enough. So when those children are heading into the school, we already know that there's many issues surrounding, you know, children not being toilet trained. And all of those problems, but obviously with the send crisis that we're seeing, we're also getting children that haven't had that form and assessment. So the transfers are difficult and the transition is really difficult for those children. And just thinking of what more we can do within the early years sector to support that right from the bottom to get to that top level, so that everything is kind of working for that chance-centred approach and we're making progress together, really. You know Emma, I think that, you know, early years doing a fantastic job and I think we need to celebrate that. I just think that, you know, when we receive our young people a secondary, you know, we recognize that the challenges are not of your making. I think it's the challenges that you know, outside of what we can do. The one thing I would say is that kind of continual communication because we do know that, you know, often in transition, things get lost in translation and sometimes we can miss things. And I just think so the communication just as our young people are transferring from early years right up to secondary. And you know, I think if we can all keep saying the same thing. And I think that our collective voices will undoubtedly help make a difference. So I would say keep on doing what early years are doing actually. Let's keep the communication going. Let's share some of the expertise that may be in early years that we don't have in secondary because we can learn a lot from our early years colleagues as well. And I think that flow of communication, the connections that we make around the young people, if we can just be consistent with that, at least we're doing our thing within the sector. But again, we need government actually to take the heavy lifting because you know, we are child centred, we're doing absolutely everything we can, you know, the department is child centred but they need to take that heavy lifting off early years and off secondary and beyond. Yeah, interesting point, thank you. And Tosla talking of heavy lifting then if we talk about funding maybe, you know, school leaders, you know the hands of everybody's face then and work. You have a live stream as well. Yeah, the, you know, schools and unions long demanded a review of the funding formula for schools. Yeah, what do you see as the impact of a lack of funding and what this has done to schools? Yeah, well, we've already spoken about SEND, so that's massive, you know, lack of funding and it's our most vulnerable young people and I think that's really important to note. So, so who gets hit the hardest? It is our most vulnerable young people when we're when we're talking about SEND. More broadly, I think the impact of the lack of funding has seen and will continue to see school leaders having to make decisions about class sizes. So, you know, class sizes because we haven't got the teachers and I know we're going to talk about recruitment and retention. It might be that we can't afford the teachers, so we're looking at increasing class sizes, which will obviously have an impact on not just the wellbeing of the teacher, but actually the day-to-day experience of the young people in those classes. I think funding is also going to have an impact more broadly on staffing. So, where a school leader will be looking at their budget, they'll be looking at, you know, where can I make some trims, where can I make some cuts potentially in the pastoral care, which, you know, for heads of years, learning support assistance, again, impacting our most vulnerable young people. And, you know, I think we can't also underestimate the impact of COVID and I know that we're four years on, but the legacy of COVID is still lingering in our schools. And so, you know, if we're cutting things like attendance and welfare officers, it's our young people potentially who have not been able to make that transition back into school post-COVID or and suffering from mental health challenges. If we're making cuts there because of the lack of school funding, again, it's your most vulnerable young people that are going to be impacted. And I think finally, another impact of the lack of funding is that school leaders will have to consider their curriculum offer. Because, you know, they will look at, you know, what they will look at their progress eight bucket, you know, where they're going to make sure that all young people are getting the outcomes, but actually, they will also consider where they can trim. And it is really sad when you see subjects like drama and music, the creative subjects being cut because English, maths and science, you know, are taking kind of presidents. And we get all of that, but actually, our young people need a broad and balanced, exciting, challenging curriculum so that they can then decide what they want to do in later life. And it's just, it's really sad, it's really sad where you see some schools with their back against the wall and they're thinking, they're looking at their budget, they're looking at their staffing, they're looking at their curriculum, they're looking at support staff, additional staff, they're just thinking, I just got to cut this subject area, I've just got to lose that member of staff. And like we say, it's how young people that are suffering. So, we need a review of the funding formula, we need to see an increase in that per pupil funding for schools so that leaders are able to run their schools to meet the needs of the children and offer that real broad and balanced curriculum. Yeah, thank you. That takes me straight back. It's a lovely film. My daughter is in Mr. Holland's Opus, Richard Dreyfus is an engineer. You do carcass. Here's the principle. And yeah, that's just struck me just a little aside, you know, that when you're point about removing things like art, music, activity, et cetera, essentially things that some might feel can be cut before English and also Holland in the film that he famously says, are they cutting in this, in the school, in this, it's a fictional, obviously, school, as they're cutting and cutting, cutting the creative art, et cetera. He said, yes, we might be promoting literature and literacy, he said, but if you cut all of the arts, what are they going to write about? Exactly. An interesting point. Yeah. That's a really nice way to phrase it, actually. Yeah, really. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you mentioned, we're going to move on to our next topic. And if that's okay, where my look at Evelyn's face again, your attention and recruitment is the next cycle that we're going to talk. And you touched upon it earlier, you said, we're going to look at that. So yes, you mentioned another crisis and issue the sectors bundling with another government committed to recruiting six and a half thousand new teachers. I mean, do you think that's enough? What else, like they need to do to attract? And then particularly, I remember, in a retention retaining teachers, unschooled leaders, any thoughts on that? Yeah. I think the 6,500 sounds good. So it really sounds good. We can see the adverts rolling out on the television, you know, become a, become a teacher and so on. So they've got a recruitment campaign going. I think, you know, for the future, it would be nice to have some clarity. Is that for 2024, 25? Or are we looking to recruit 6,500 every year? So I think some clarity around the numbers, I think would be helpful for the sector. But we find ourselves in a recruitment and retention crisis. And I will peg it to the challenges we've just spoken about, you know, we've spoken about the send crisis and, you know, teachers leaving the profession who are really morally driven and, you know, really, it's, they want to be in the classroom, but you can become de-skilled because you can feel that you don't have the skills to meet the needs of all the children in your classroom. And that's why we need that focus on the send. We need that additional funding. So I think a lot of teachers are looking at the educational landscape and they're just thinking, whoa, I signed up, you know, I'm a history teacher. I signed up to, you know, in part my wisdom and my history knowledge. And that's amazing. We always knew there'd be some pastoral responsibilities. Most teachers love it. That's absolutely fine. But what we now find ourselves is, you know, lots and lots of teachers. And I've often been quoted as saying that schools have become the fourth emergency service. And actually we're picking up, you know, housing issues, clothing issues, you know, and, you know, in early years, you know, teeth brushing, young people coming in in that is and so on and so forth. And I just think over time that can take its toll on our colleagues in the sector. And they're giving thought to that. And some people are leaving. I think post-pandemic where lots of people were working from home. And, you know, the idea of flexi working really is attractive. And it's quite a challenge for the sector to manage that flexi working environment. I don't think it's insurmountable, but I think it's going to take quite a bit of work for everybody to be in that position. So you find teachers and, you know, people coming into the profession thinking, wow, I really want to teach maths and science and English. But actually I've got to do all this additionality, which I don't feel skilled, you know, I don't feel that I've got the skills in order to do that. So they may well be choosing a different profession and a career to go into. And I think for school leaders, I think, you know, we spoke about funding, you know, really having to make those decisions that really weigh heavy on you at night, you know, because this are people's lives. These are young people's lives and our colleagues' lives. And we're having to make decisions because we don't have the funding. So that's a real issue. I am heartened, I have to say, that the new, the new government and the education secretary is really picking up the profession. I think there's more praise and thank you. I think which got lost in the last administration, but I think moving forward, if we are to retain our brilliant teachers and our brilliant staff, we need to, we need to praise the profession more because it's not a walk in the park being a teacher or a leader. And I think that we need that recognition, you know, we all got, you know, pat on the back during COVID when we were all going in. But, you know, somehow our schools remained open and we did amazing work with our young people over remote learning and parents, you know, could looking over their child's shoulder and thinking, wow, your teacher's amazing. And, you know, all the praise and the plaudits then, which began to trickle away. And I just think it's a wonderful profession, you know, teachers and support staff do a fantastic job. So, in order to retain, let's look at, bigging up the profession in a way that is, you know, saying thank you, you're doing a great job, making it an attractive profession. So let's look at the workload. And when I talk about workload, not necessarily the marking of the books and the data inputs, which most schools have kind of stripped right back, it's that additionality of workload. And I think that the department needs to look at that. Otherwise, people won't come into the profession and they won't stay in their profession. So there's some small wins. And I think, you know, we'll talk about accountability shortly. And I think they're beginning to make some kind of quick wins there. But I think it's going to take a much broader strategy to make sure that the sector is a desirable. It's a desirable career to go into. And we're looking after our teachers and, you know, support staff. You know, let's look after their well-being so that they actually stay. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Emma, any thought on what I'm doing? Yeah, I find that really, really interesting. And obviously, I do support a local school, a secondary school board. And as you mentioned, one of the biggest issues seems to be that attendance. And there's a lot that goes into trying to get the young people back into school. And you were talking so fantastically about that curriculum being quite rigid, particularly where pulling back, which is obviously going to stop children wanting to come into the sector, but also it can have an impact on the skill set of some of the teachers that we've got coming in, because they might want to focus on the art side of things rather than that maths and science. One thing that I believe I've heard right is that they're now going to be introducing hopefully free breakfast for school. And I know that's not a massive deal, because there are so many children that are not having breakfast. Yeah. They're going into the learning environment and they're hungry. So how can they have that concentration and be part of that classroom? So it's really interesting that you said that there was real basics and all these extra things that teachers have do with it and rock them just teaching. I have been an impact on maybe their attraction to the service that you know, teach. That's really interesting. Yeah, and I think the breakfast, free breakfast, is definitely a first step forward. Like you said, young people don't learn when they're hungry. And they could be coming into school without breakfast and their lunchtime meal is the only meal they may well have. And I just think we need to be mindful of the different socioeconomic backgrounds that many of our young people are coming from. And so providing them with a free breakfast is going to help their well-being. It's going to help their learning. And it's a win-win. You know, it is just a win-win. It's a nice start to their day. They get to chat to their friends. You know, we're a couple of teachers kind of milling around. And it just kind of sets the tone, right? So when you start your day, you know, we get up, we have a coffee where we're setting the tone for our day. So let's set the tone for our young people, our children, so that they can begin their their learning day with a full belly and an inquiring mind. Yeah, lovely. That would that would please me, certainly, yes. I think it's always interesting when numbers like this come out. I was kind of wanting to look in. So obviously I was prepping for this. And you know, then Neil was now sort of a very fine section in it. You know, they're promoting in the media that there's a very fine of everything that's being said. It's interesting to have that number 6,500, you know, it sounds like a reasonably large number. About 640,000 teachers in the UK. So that's 1% of the current workforce. 2022, 23, 43 and a half thousand teachers left in 2022, 23, according to the figures that are probably so nearly 10% of the teaching population left. And we're potentially looking at replacing it with 1% yeah, without number. So I think that's just an interesting very fine fact to people. I'm sure people will look online themselves without. Yeah, helpful, really helpful. Yeah, thank you. Okay, then. So you mentioned it earlier. We're talking about accountability and that the big old and I'm not talking Roy Orbison for those who remember the name. I'm talking about them. So it's changing. It's approached to inspections. You know, your thoughts on what do you see as benefits, challenges, maybe of this? Yeah, I just think that for far too long, the accountability system has been two high stakes. I just think that it has been high stakes and career defining for a number of our colleagues in the sector. And, you know, the last couple of years, you know, the tragedy that we've seen that kind of prompted a review of Off-Stead. We shouldn't have got to that. Number one, I think that we should have been listening to the sector way before that tragedy. So if we're thinking about the future, you know, a future focus, we're already in that space, whereby they are reviewing the single word judgments and moving to a report card, which somebody like Ascle has been advocating for for a very long time. We've had some art in Oliver undertake the big listen. So giving diverse groups from the sector, you know, parents, governors, teachers, you know, unions, an opportunity to contribute their views to the future of Off-Stead. So I think that we are heading in the right direction. I think that the devil will be in the detail because as we move to a report card, I couldn't honestly put my hand on my heart and say, yep, I totally understand what that is going to look like and it's going to suit the, you know, it's going to suit the whole inspection framework. Hence, I when I say the devil is in the detail. And so I think that continuing listening to people in the sector to make it right and make it fit for purpose, because I think up until this point, it hasn't been fit for purpose because of the high stakes accountability. I mean, no way saying that we should not inspect schools. I do think we need to be held to account, you know, we have, we hold like over a thousand young people's lives in our hands, we are responsible for them, you know, their safeguarding, their well-being, their outcomes. We should absolutely have some type of inspection framework. The report card definitely feels like a good starting point. But the devil is in the detail. What does that look like? And can we get to a place where we've got, you know, a tipping point of most, most people in the sector saying, we can see that this is going to work. It's going to work for your primary, for your special schools, for your secondary schools and so on. And I think that's another reason why some leaders have left the sector because that high stakes accountability, that, you know, not sleeping at night, that, you know, where we're all kind of working towards offstead. And it can take the joy out of being a teacher, but, you know, mainly being a leader, because you're thinking, am I in the window? When am I going to get the call? Obviously, they've changed that now as well. So that's kind of, so I think I said earlier, some like small, small steps and, you know, some quick wins. And I think the review that they've undertaken in terms of removing the single word judgments, I think, you know, probably didn't cost a lot. It got a lot of, a lot of positive feedback from the sector. So I think if the department can continue on that kind of road to, let's talk to the sector, let's see what we can do in the short term. But obviously there is some much longer term systemic issues that they need to, that they need to address. Interesting, but, you know, that, that word you said, listen earlier. I think, to just say, if the overwhelming majority of those working in and leading and managing the sector, related stakeholders, unions, etc, saying that something isn't fit for purpose. Yeah. Surely somebody should listen somewhere and do something about that. You would hope, right? You would hope. Yeah. Yeah. That really does link a bit back to that obviously recruitment where you was discussing the fact that we need to make sure we're boosting this professionalism and creating that culture of that integrity, that professionalism, that courtesy, that everything, that respect for all the hard work that goes in, because you're right. In different demographics, teachers are going to be facing completely different problems. Yeah. So it's, it's making sure that there is that support and identifying, you know, the differences that, that different teachers are going to be facing and looking at how well they're doing and, yeah, by stripping back some of those wording and, and making it more focus is definitely going to help, I think, that boost in their, in their career, absolutely, really interesting. To totally agree, I think everything that we've been discussing and, and then I'm sure you're, they're all interconnected, you know, if we can just kind of fix them, but with a holistic, kind of strategic plan and just recognise, and I suppose one of the first things is, well, let's acknowledge that this is an issue, you know, let's acknowledge that funding is a massive issue, if we can, if we can deal with the funding and sort the funding out, hey, we might begin to solve some of the send crisis, we might begin to solve some of the recruitment and retention crisis. So yeah, it's going to take that kind of broad holistic lens on what the challenges are. Yeah, thank you. And yeah, it always, it reminds me of that quote, then I quite like my quotes. It takes me to that quote, a quote of culture eats, um, strategy for breakfast. Yeah. Um, it's attributed to Peter Drucker. Um, I have read that the Drucker Foundation, I always point this out that they actually say that it, it, he didn't ever say it, but it's attributed to Peter Drucker, which I think is interesting caveat. But yeah, culture, strategy, all those things, I always think, you know, we can put the funding, maybe we can, you know, increase, um, we can listen more, we can have lots of strategy. But as you, that per lovely point you made earlier about the department recognizing, acknowledging, praising, thanking, creating a culture that's supportive, that you, that you're proud to be part of and that you want to be part of. Yeah. And hopefully that then in parallel with strategy and increase funding and all the, you know, the, the really positive recommendations we've given today, that then can produce a whole, yeah. And I, and I think, um, you know, I do think there have only been in post a new government for a couple of months now. Um, it's feeling that there are more words coming from them. Um, but I would say it needs to be consistent. It, it, it can't be at the start and then it all kind of falls apart. It's got to be that, that consistent, um, relationship building, but the sector. Yeah. Drive it through. Yes. We don't want you just to kind of fade away. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, even, um, for, for being with us today and for your time. It's been great. I, I've loved it at all. Thank you so much. You're, Emma. Thank you so much. It's been so insightful and it's just lovely to spend some time with you talking about all these issues. So thank you for today. Oh, no, my pleasure. Okay. Then so, um, if you'd like to connect with Evelyn, um, uh, she's, um, on LinkedIn, um, and also, uh, very, very exciting news. Um, and I think was in the first of October, Evelyn, first of October, Evelyn had, um, a book published. It's called Her Story, A Leadership Manifesto, and the book looks at systemic racism in the sector and offers practical advice and suggestions for improving representation. How thrilled are you about that, Evelyn? Do I need to ask us? I, I'm delighted that, um, I've been able to kind of publish, um, my experiences, that of other leaders in the sector, but, um, it's also a practical, you know, a bit like we were saying about, you know, the government, um, practical suggestions. This is what we need to do in order to increase, um, ethnic diversity in the teaching profession. Um, so yeah, I'm delighted, I'm excited, and I hope that people read it, um, and then it makes a difference. Absolutely. Obviously, it's, well, I know where I'm as mentioned to me already, it's definitely on our list. Anyway, so, we're definitely sold and out, and so thank you. That's great, Evelyn, and very good luck with our book, as well. It's a very exciting news. Thank you. Well, yeah, that really was such a rich conversation. Evelyn really gave us a lot of think about, especially when it comes to things like accountability and organizations that carry out external reveals, um, Emma, what stood out to you the most? Um, for me, it was definitely the part about the crisis across the board, um, obviously in early years, we've seen so much development in such a short space of time. And I think the interview really highlighted how we as educators can support that through more tailored approaches. Absolutely, Emma, and I, I really appreciated the way that Evelyn touched on the importance of funding. I mean, if you give great people all the right tools, they should do a great job. And I think she really drew out the issue of funding in a very, very clear way. And this is not just key for apprenticeship context, but it's across the board in all educational settings. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I also thought it was interesting when Evelyn discussed funding, especially how that links back to the practical challenges as we face in schools, in earlier settings. What do you think, Emma, on that one? Yes, absolutely brilliant. One take away from me, is the idea that we're actually all in this together. It's across the EYFS and obviously the educational institution. And it is a crisis we need to go through together. And I think this will resonate a lot with our listeners today, and especially those who are in the thick of delivering apprenticeships for, again, early years of school environments. Oh, for sure. It's really important that we keep this conversation going, not just within our teams, but right across the sector so that we can all continue to learn and grow together. Yeah, yeah, I can agree more with the board through there. We definitely ought to reflect on after this particular podcast. Wow, that's, and we've got time for today, but we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we did. There's so much to think about in terms of improving our practice and ensuring that we're meeting the needs of both apprentices and the children in our care. And don't forget folks, if you've got any thoughts or ideas you'd like to share with us, we'd love to hear from you. Yes, we really appreciate hearing your feedback. Thanks so much for tuning in, and we'll be back with you with more insightful discussion soon. Until then, keep making a difference in your settings, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)