Futcrunch Just Can't Stop Growing (20M+ Subs)

How can we do better? How can I get better? How can we entertain people more? What makes you a top tier creative director? The reason why we get things done and we get them done so good is because Hi, my name is Ricardo. I'm creative director for For Crunch, the largest football channel in the UK and we've managed to grow our channels to over 20 million followers across all platforms. My first question to you is this. What needs to happen in order to get a pro football club to say, yes, to a YouTube collab? A miracle. That's basically what needs to happen. I guess it depends on like the type of collaboration that you're thinking. Footballers or football clubs are amongst the most followed or known teams or people in the world. So everyone's like interested in like, you know, getting a piece of that pie. So to get them what you need to understand is that these people are not only very famous, they're also worth quite a lot of money. For them to go and collaborate with a YouTuber, regardless of how big you are, how big your name is, how popular you are online, it's still a risk. Why? Because you know, what happens if one of these players gets an injury doing like a challenge for like in our channel? Like can you imagine the headlines or like the chaos of what that would mean for that team, for that player? It would be like complete chaos. So that makes it like very hard to have like a complete free range of things that you can do. Basically, depends a lot on the club. It depends a lot sometimes on the players, it depends sometimes on their agents, on their sponsors. You know, it wouldn't be the same to try and film a video with Erling Hallen, who's worth around 200 million pounds that I'm filming with someone in a local club in your local community or in a lower division. You know, with all the respect to like everyone, it's just a different level and there's more stakeholders involved that would need to get on board and approve to do a collaboration on that type. Are you the one reaching out to start these collabs? Are you talking to player agents? Are you mostly talking with the social media reps from clubs and sending them really nice emails? We have a very small and tight team here in FootCrunch, which allows everyone or anyone in the team to seize any opportunity that we see. So no one is completely soul in charge of doing this type of outreach or this type of collaboration. Everyone's just always keeping their eyes open, their ears clear and polished for every opportunities or any contacts that could help us or support us in this way. So that can be, you know, directly speaking with footballer agents, sometimes their families, sometimes they have close friends, sometimes directly with the clubs. It can be like a different range of things like we've had, like I said, we've had spoken directly with players, we've spoken with our managers, we've spoken with relatives or friends of the players, we've spoken directly with clubs that then put us in touch with players. So it can be in different ways. I have done it myself and many times, but there's no one inside our team that is like solely responsible for doing this. Everyone knows how important it is for the channel, how good it is when we have these opportunities. So everyone and anyone that sees a good opportunity finds a good connection, gets a good introduction, you know, they're entitled to go and pursue it and see how far we can get to with those leads. True or false, the more famous, the athlete, the more views the video will get. To some extent, I would say it's true. You know, it always also depends, it will also depend on the idea. Like, you know what I mean, if you do anything with, you know, a very famous person, it will 100% get more views that if you have done the same idea with someone that is no one, right? But the idea is like how do you make the most of someone who's very famous, very attractive. You know, what is like the best idea that you could do? I think that is a real question that creators or people working on this space. If they were looking to collaborate, you know, now we're talking about athletes, but you know, maybe someone watching, they're thinking on celebrities on different spaces. And I guess like what you need to think about, it's like, what is the best idea that I could do for, you know, our channel or for my niche that involves these very famous person that I know will give us a boost in abuse. You have over 20 million subscribers across all platforms. What three things make Foot Crunch a top tier content creator? I would say the first one is that he generally is what you see online. And I know that might sound silly, but anyone working behind the scenes know that the people you see online on camera is always the same that you see off camera. Foot Crunch really is Foot Crunch. Foot Crunch is not made up character. Foot Crunch is really goofy, really light-hearted, funny, good-bye person that you see on camera. It's like a key part of like what he is and where he is right now. And and one of the key reasons why so many people around the world relate to him. He's just like a guy that, you know, loves football, loves the sport, you know, he's goofy, he's not afraid to be silly. He acts like probably like a normal fan, getting like the opportunities or the stuff that we could do with act if they were there. He does an act like he's a guy that has, you know, 20 million people that know his face and follow him like every single week. He act just like a normal football fan that just got very lucky and, you know, has these insane opportunities to do these things. So I would say that's a number one thing. Number two, I would say like he's probably the most driven person I've ever met. Ever since like we started the channel, I think one of the key factors was like he's relentless hunger for always getting better. He was always wanting to improve, always wanting to find like, okay, what can we do that hasn't been done before? What can we do with the content that people wouldn't be expecting? And that has been like a key feature that he's maintained over all these years that not everyone has like a lot of creators after being around for so many years, they start to get like tired or exhausted because it requires a lot of energy. It requires a lot of time. It requires a lot of effort. Probably anyone watching these awards behind the scenes would understand this. So the fact that he's been able to maintain this level of commitment, passion and hunger to keep improving and growing is one of the reasons why he's or we are where he is. And then the third key point that I would give him that he's very good at trusting. Trying to grow something as big as it is right now, it's impossible to do if you don't have good people around you that can cover for your weaknesses or do things that you couldn't do or maybe that you could do what you couldn't do as good as others. And you know, being able to let go, being able to trust other people, being able to trust other people's visions, skills and work ethics, it's something that's very important. And I think that's probably the very most important thing that he's had is that he was able to see the people or the team that we've built around hand and be able to trust everyone and empower them to do things in the way they soft fit. And that includes me and you know, anyone, everyone else on the team. How would he answer that question about you? The three most important things about me. One of the things he would include is I'm kind of a perfectionist, which is, you know, maybe like a feature that he doesn't have. He's not a perfectionist on his everyday. He's the type of person that prefers things, you know, don't he's better than perfect. So when you put both of these things together, you have, you know, hand on this on his side, making sure that we're pushing and that we're actually finishing things and getting them done and progressing without procrastinating, you know, without the lame things. And then on my side, it's like, right, how perfect can we make these? Why is the best way in which we can make things like what is a perfect version that exists for us within the limitations that we have at the moment because you need to understand that a lot of people see us now in the space and they think like, okay, these guys can do anything now because you know, they've been around for five years, they have 20 million subscribers, they had a lot of views, they probably have resources and whatnot, but that is just simply not true. Like the reason why we get things done and we get them done so good is because we put our minds to it. It's not because of what we had right now because when we started, we were with exact same ethics and and the exact same goals and the exact same striker perfection that I have when I started the same that I have now, always say I now have more, yeah, more resources. I have more access to different things because we've we've put the work before us. Like a lot of the people, a lot of the time, a lot of creators, I think they settled for like, okay, these would, you know, just be good enough. These sometimes can be, you know, maybe have an idea and maybe the first idea that you have, that is what you go and do. I never do that. I'll have one idea and then I'll go and think like, okay, how can these idea be better and I go and repeat these process maybe 10 times in my head. I go and see edits and I see edits, I see videos hundreds of times. I pay attention to every single small detail. Like I can remember almost like all the dialogues of all the videos we've done. I remember the songs we've used. I remember so many stupid little details because I'm such a perfectionist and I think that's probably like one of the key features in which he would say I'm a good creator of director. Another one, or I guess we could say number two is that I have a very good vision for the future. So foot crunching self is very good. Same things for where they are, right right in the moment. I'm very good at imagining and seeing things for what they could be very long ahead of the future. Like right where we are now, I could see us here five years ago and nobody else could, not even him. I could see us being here, I could see us doing a lot of the things that we do right now. You know, there was no reason, there was no data, there was no facts that could have led me to think that this was possible other than my imagination, but somehow I don't know how to explain and I just had it in me. I can see very fine in the future and I can see what's possible in my head. If you combine that with the fact that I'm a perfectionist then you have have a very good long term planner that can lead a team. Then I suppose if we had to select a third one, I'm debating between two things. One is that I think I'm a very good storyteller. I think I've been very good at defining or helping footprints define his voice, his nature, his way of talking, his way of doing content throughout the years. And then the other one is that I think I'm a pretty tough guy. So if you say Foot Crunch, he's a very mellow, sweet, funny guy who hates confrontation, hates higher conversations. And it's not that I love them, but I'm ready to have them. And unfortunately, when you have a 20 million, just 20 million, subscribe a channel. When you have a company of these sides with these many people in our team, there are moments where we have to have tough conversations. There are moments where some people mess up, where some people do the wrong thing. And we need to have tough conversations. We need to lead the team in their right way. And someone needs to be that grad guy sometimes. I think I'm very good at being the bad guy when it's needed, whether that's with someone from our team, whether that's Foot Crunch in cell, whether that's a partner, whether that's a sponsor, anyone else that we can come across in this content creator space, I would say I'm very good at being the bad guy or the tough guy and having those tough conversations that need to be have. - It sounds like you have very complimentary skills to each other. - Oh, definitely, definitely. I think we were very lucky to have found each other because we really complimented very well in the things that he's very good at and the things I'm very good at. And I think that's what makes us like a very strong and solid team. - How did you find each other? - So I moved to the UK many years ago. I moved to the UK maybe like nine years ago. And Santiago, Foot Crunch Real Name, was the first friend I made when I moved to the UK. We met because I got a job in a restaurant. He was away there at the time and I got a job at the same restaurant and that's how we met. And this was long before YouTube was even a dream for the both of you. - Long before we started, like he started making content. In fact, I had been in love with YouTube and content making and content creation way before him. I tried to start like different channels or like different things throughout the years before like he found Foot Crunch or he started this journey. And in fact, the first time he's ever on camera on a YouTube channel is on a video of my own in an old channel that I've had. And like that's the first ever time that he was on camera. That wasn't like something that was on his head. Like bag will we met, which is different in contrast to myself because that was actually in my mind. I was in love with YouTube with content creation, video making, filmmaking. And I was very interested in the topic. - So would you say, did you discover Foot Crunch? Do you ever joke with him about that? - Um, I don't think I've, I've making, I could make more jokes about it. But I definitely think I did help and a lot as a friend to find his way to what was his calling. I really think I help him in that sense. Like back when I met him, he was an engineering student which I used to be as well. We're both like engineering dropouts. But when he met me, I had already dropped out because I decided I wanted to do something creative. But when I met him, he was still trying to go for that dream. I remember meeting him and you know, quickly realizing the hey, I don't think you'll be happy with this engineering thing. I think you're someone who has that very entrepreneurial soul. He was very clear to me that he was someone who wanted to create something for himself. Like he wanted to create something from the ground and bail his way up, you know, bootstrap himself and like where he's way up to the top. I wasn't sure what it was about then. I cannot take credit in saying like that. I planted the idea of him, you know, going into content or creating content anywhere. But I do think I gave him a lot of like guidance and support and telling him like, hey, I think your true calling is not going in, you know, it's not in university, it's not in schools, it's not engineering. I think what your true calling is is somewhere where you have the opportunity to build something for yourself. What that is, I didn't know all the time. But all I knew is that he hadn't in him to do it. Because like I said, I think he's like the most determined person I've ever met. He just didn't know what to be determined to do. Like that, if that makes sense. When you started posting together, was it success right from the beginning? So when I started posting with him, I would say yes. So like when I officially joined to start working with him, he was already being very popular, doing content on all the social media platforms, like Instagram and TikTok. But then when he started to pay attention to YouTube, that's when he called my attention. Because that's like my realm. Like that's why I wanted to do it for years. So by then I think he was maybe having videos that were nearly 80,000 views, 90,000 views, that type of sense. And I just saw the opportunity of these being so much more. So I asked him to let me help him. I asked him like, hey, I still have my other job. But let me help you like a few hours of the week. Let me help you with some tasks. Let me help you find out where we could take this channel. And I would say this success was almost like right of the bat. I remember like one of the first tasks that he gave me was like, oh, I want to have like a video that can reach one million views. That's like my goal. I want to have a video that gets one million views. If you can help me get there, then that's good. That's all I could want. And remember that was like one of my first tasks, just going and researching. I started like checking like all the different channels that were similar to what he was doing at the time and seeing. Like, okay, what videos go to a million views? Why, when did they release them? How long ago, what did they do inside of them? And I kind of started to like strip them back. Like reverse engineering until we started to support it to spot more patterns of what needed to be done. And we started applying them quickly. And I would say this success was like very media. It was like very quick. Like we started like having content that would get million views over a million views very fast and very quick. And from then we almost like didn't look back. From then like the conversation went just like, first it was like how do we get one video that gets one million views over time, just one. And then the conversation went like, how do we make sure that every video has one million views? And then the conversation was like, how do we get one video to have more than one million views? Then then it kept going and going and going and obviously growing and growing and growing. Okay, wait, I think there's a, I'm missing something because it sounds like you were both engineering students and you were pushing him to like get into YouTube and follow his drive to be a leader and you know own his own thing. And then something happened and then you started working with him and he was already getting 80,000 views. So what happened in the middle there? I'm missing that part of the piece of it. - So in the middle between that, I was having two jobs at the time. I actually go into like traditional marketing. I go to a job like in a traditional marketing agency and that's what I was kind of like doing because I, one of the problems of being a perfectionist and not being more like someone like full crunch which is more driven, more race-taking is that it's very hard to start like a channel or start something where you're always trying to strive for perfection. So because my standards were so high, it was just so hard for me to start any channel and be consistent with it and actually see a truth. So in that time, obviously I had to continue just making a living and surviving. So I got a job in traditional marketing and that's kind of like what I was doing at the time. Well, on the other hand, full crunch was a lot more restaking where he was probably less knowledgeable than me about content making. He was less passionate about it and he had less focus on it than me, but he was more driven. So he was willing to put through all of the adversities and all of the walls and frictions that he had to work on, not knowing as much as I did back then because he was more driven. He was more driven into like, I want to figure this out. And I just, you know, even if I'm bad at it or if I suck at it, I'll continue doing it until I learn how to be good at it. And I guess that he had that drive that I didn't have in the moment. But then as soon as I realized he was actually looking like he could do something, that's when he called my attention and that's when I reached out and I went to him like, "Hey, I think you're doing something cool now." I think there's a lot that I could learn from you as well and maybe there's a lot that I could help you with because you already started, you already taking the steps is your face is no mine so I could probably like be less of a perfectionist and take some of your drive to continue this journey without trying to be 100% perfect. I think there's a lot that I could learn from that. And that's how we got together and it was like a perfect combination literally 'cause I could fill in the gaps that he had, you know, in terms of content making, what looks good, how to make the content like. Like when I met him, he wouldn't even know like, you know, he didn't know how to like use a camera, how to use his phone properly to film anything. Like he didn't know like a lot of these things that I, I didn't know but what he did have is that he had this relentless drive of like, okay, we have to upload, we have to upload, we have to upload, we have to get videos going, we have to try new ideas, we have to try new things, we have to pose consistently to see what's working and see what's not. Whereas in the past, if I have been doing that on my own, I would have been like, I need to find out what is the perfect idea that I will immediately pose and that'll be the one. And it cannot be like, you know, I cannot pose a bad thing. It has to be the perfect thing. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to post it. You know what I mean? Whilst on the other side, he was like, I don't care, I'll pose anything until I find out what works. So when you put both those things together, he was like, like I said, it was a perfect combination. It was a perfect combination 'cause we balance each other out. I push him to try and make things better every time and he pushed me to still put things out there even if they were not perfect, even if they weren't fully ready, even if I was 100% confident in what we were doing. And that combination is what God is where we are. - A lot of this conversation so far has been talking about how you're such a good match for each other, your skills compliment each other in such a perfect way. Is that luck or did you see his skills and mold your skills to be the things that he needed and he did the same thing for you? - I think it's a little bit of both. Us meeting and connecting in the way we did, like finding each other in the way we found [BLANK_AUDIO] Is it a lock or destiny? That's what I would put it because I I don't have any other explanation for it Like we're both Venezuela and we're both from a country that's like on the other side of the ocean We met in a city that is Liverpool, which is not a huge massive city It's not like we met somewhere like New York or London or somewhere where like it's more international city No, we didn't even meet in like a big international city and the fact that we connected with each other We had like similar the side and similar goals and then after that initial log of less enough like us finding each other I do think like throughout the years we both unconsciously at first realized we benefited from each other It was almost like you know when I don't know like for the near Marvel fans You know when like Venom first gets by them and he goes like wow this is so cool because this is so powerful and stuff And he's like so strong. I think that's kind of like what it was at the beginning like we kind of didn't understand it as well Because we were still trying to figure everything out. We were young. We didn't know exactly what we were meant to be doing So a lot of it was like trial and error But I think after sometimes we did work conscious about it. We were conscious of life Hey, you know what the reason why I'm able to do these things being a perfection is because I have them pushing me pushing my boundaries pushing me to my limit pushing me to don't settle for perfection and be willing to put my skin on the game and put things of that and you know see what works and like learning from actual experience and then hand benefiting from someone like me in not just being happy with the lower minimal effort that you can put into things But actually striving to do things as best as you can with the resources that you have at the time It sounds like you capitalized on luck and really just ran with it. I'm a believer that the harder you work or the better you work the luckier you get. So I feel like Love is there, you know, and it's just about how you capitalize on your luck So I think I think the log is out there and you have more chances to find it if you were higher therefore Like if you're actively looking for luck, I think you will find it and I think it's the same for people If you know what you need in someone, if you know like the pun as you're looking, if you know like if you know your tribe, it'll be easier to find them because you'll first you'll be able to spot who aligns with what you need and who doesn't and both things are equally as important You need to understand who doesn't align with what you need right now in life so that you can, you know, let them go, let them flow later and find whoever they need to find But also so that whenever you find someone that does match what you need and what you're requiring life, you're able to take action with it Which is what I think we did both of us recognize that we were good for our journeys our individual journeys and that we benefited from having our journeys or individual journeys aligned together and like follow like a parallel path What does your team look like at Foot Crunch? Well, the things that with Foot Crunch itself, so that'll be Santiago, you know, being himself Santiago on top of, you know, being the face being the creator, the guy that people love watching in the videos, he also works very closely with me and with our second channel manager which is our gaming channel right now Taking the ideas that we do, developing them and especially one thing that he's obsessed with and that he loves and that he's been in charge of since the very beginning it's packaging He absolutely loves working on packaging which I think is like no surprise because I love like the biggest creators have a big passion for that I can think like from the top of my head Ryan Trayhan is like one of like the smartest people when it comes to packaging that I think the space has I think Foot Crunch is within that package or within that list of people like he's a separate packaging, he loves thumbnails, he loves working and then he loves looking at them He's like a great designer himself obviously we have terminal designers that do the magic but when it comes to like concept and you know tweaking, making changes, running tests, seeing data, doing research He's absolutely obsessed with it so he will be the person leading the area on top of being the creator and the face of the channel and the face of the brand Then we have his brother Mo or how we call him or my ses, who's in charge of everything that it's funny, I hope he doesn't watch his evil He's in charge of everything that we call boring, all the boring part he's in charge of so that's like finances, legal contracts, taxes, salaries, pain people Like all the boring boring important stuff that still needs to be done, especially when you grow to a channel and a team this big You have to have people who are on top of that so he's the person who makes sure that we follow all the rules that everything is done correctly And then on top of that he also works very closely with all of our partners and all of our sponsors So he'll be like the direct contact for I would say 95% of the partners or teams that we work with on a regular basis We have a few of the different ones that he doesn't manage directly and the only reason that we beat is because someone from the team might have a closer relationship with a specific partner Like if an example like there might be a specific brand that we work with on a regular basis that we go to work with because I knew someone And that's why you know I handled that because we have like a close or direct relationship Or maybe it's the same for Santiago for someone else in the team and that's the reason why he wouldn't directly manage that relationship Then you have me it's so hard to describe what I do because I call myself like creative director just because it's like the easiest thing that people kind of get But in reality if I could put a I'm an extension of foot crunching self I'm an extension and I'll probably say I'm his right hand in everything Everything that comes to running the company running the channels running when I say channels I mean every single channel and whereas we post running the team that we have that also includes like you know hiring people Promoting people firing people Everything in between I'll be doing that so it's not just like me even the creative director and being in charge of the creative stuff I'm more like a right hand for himself in helping make a lot of the big decisions that shave the company and the channel into what it is on his days today basis So yeah that can cover like a lot of things you can think like anything that's operational to anything that's creative I can technically be involved in even though obviously on my day today if possible I prefer to focus on anything that's creative Like I love working on content I love getting content now I love working on producing the content filming the content directing the content I love to jump on it. It's help the editors make the videos So I can do literally everything from the smallest task to like the biggest task you could think in a channel like that's something that I can do I don't think there is a task that's beyond me in being too little for me to do or too big for me to do So that's your core team then you got a core team and then we have our head of shores right now Basically this was someone who was working like as a producer executive or an extension to mean helping us with the production of the videos But with the rise of shoreform content we basically promoted earlier last year to be in the head of shores And now it's the person who is in charge of working with food crunch and with me to come up with the ideas that we film for shoreform and vertical content And all the platforms working with the editors, organizing the shoots, posting the videos, checking the data analytics, working with any partners that want to sponsor any of our vertical content So that's basically like a new role that maybe a lot of people don't have right now Like I said with the rise of of vertical content in the past few years it's something that's very important for us So I would say that's like a very core team that's a team that started working together around three and a half years ago Like that's a core team that we've been working together On top of that I have a post-production supervisor who's kind of like a lead editor post-production supervisor So he's the person who filters a lot of the content before it reaches me if that makes sense so he's a person who was an editor for us and who's been working for us for a long time Someone that I've been able to train closely and teach him a lot of why I know So that he can do a lot of the work I used to do for me and save me some time and some hours We have an in-house assistant editor who's basically in charge of receiving all of the footage that we do and you know organizing and labeling And then sending them to whoever needs to edit that whether that's someone in-house or someone working freelance He's a person who will receive all of that protected and make sure he gets to the right place and make sure that everything's stored properly and correctly for us to easily access whenever needed On top of that we also work with you know a bunch of editing freelancers like a freelancer editors, terminal designers We do a lot of our content to maybe over 12 different languages which is crazy and it makes us have like a global audience So we have a team that's in charge of doing the quality control timelines, translating the videos for our main channel and our second channel And that's like an actual like unit that we have like a separate unit where we have one guy that is our direct contact and he has a team that is in charge of it I think right now that would be like probably our core team We're looking to expand and get more people to help us because you know the more you keep growing the more stuff you realize you want to tackle that you want to do It almost feels like you never slow down like there's always more ideas that you want to do more channels that you want to open More channels that you want to be posting on you want to be posting more regularly you want to have bigger videos, better videos And there's a limit to what you can do with a certain amount of people There becomes a point where you need to get extra hands so that's probably like something that will be tackling also like very soon Getting some more people in some key areas to help us you know keep growing and achieve our goals for the future That's a pretty big team if you include the freelancers and stuff like that like you're a pretty sizable operation by now Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah monthly basis. I'll be working on talking with maybe 12 different people that I'll have to be, you know, keeping tracks on or talking with or supervising or being the tough guy. Right. Okay. I want to do one little segment with you. So overrated or underrated posting weekly. I think right now is all underrated. Yes. I think there is a beauty to being consistent with you, with your team and with your audience that is very, very much underrated and that I think a lot of people or a lot of channels, a lot of creators, even a lot of like shows, movies like big productions are ignoring. There is more content out there than it has ever been before, but the quality content is still so slim. For like, if you think how much content you consume or like anyone watching, like we consume so much. So like having the good quality content on a regular basis, I think it's so underrated and anyone who can do it on a consistent basis, I would say it's underrated because it takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. The more you pose, the more you get to learn what's working, what people like and what are people enjoying. And that's like a benefit that I feel like bigger channels like ourselves lose on when we grow this much because all the videos become bigger, they take more time, etc. So that sometimes adds up to the point where, you know, maybe we're too late to the party. Maybe there's something that is trending around maybe something that will be cool now, but because it would take so much time to do it in the scale that we would need to now, because we're a big channel, that sometimes we miss out on something very rate. So I would say underrated for sure. Split testing thumbnails. Ah, that was so tough. I'm gonna say. Really? I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say underrated, but it could also be overrated. I think some people overrated. Some people overrated. Some people do split tests and like the thumbnail change is like, I don't know, you're wearing a red shit and the other one you're wearing a white shirt. Like it's yeah. In that case, that's like overrated. But in the majority, I would say the majority of channels right now underrated because it's a very helpful tool. Dubbing content manually into other languages. What do you mean by manually? Well, I mean, YouTube gives you the permission to auto dub to a bunch of different languages, but you actually do this manually and you have your own team that handles this. Yes. So underrated overrated. I would say underrated as of now, but I think it'll be no time for AI to catch up and be good enough that it will be, you know, I'll take over. But as of now, it's underrated because you have actual people put in thought into translating this in the best way possible for those audiences, which is something that the AI cannot do. Also, AI cannot replicate good boys acting yet. Good boys acting is very, very good. Like some of the people that follow us from different countries absolutely love our voice actors. Some of them even love them more than the real voice of a crutch, which is crazy. Collaborating with athletes overrated. It's very hard to do. You don't get as much control as you would want. And the majority of cases unless you have like big names is overrated. YouTube on television. Very underrated. The majority of people right now, I think, watch on television. And I think it's only going to continue to grow in like in the next few years and know everyone's paying attention to it. So I think YouTube is like, it's trying to take over and it'll continue to do so. Well, I think still underrated. I don't think that many people realize how big it is yet. Okay, my last one shorts. For me, personally overrated. I think shores are overrated personally. And I still do that and I work on that and I pay attention to that. And I know how successful and important they are. But I think it's just a personal thing that I think they're overrated. Well, that is the interview. So thank you very much for your time, for your energy, for your creative expertise for sharing all the value that you did. It was fun. I had a good time interviewing you. Perfect. Thank you so much for having me. That's it for today's episode. Thank you for watching or listening. If you're watching on YouTube, please consider subscribing so you can stick around for when the next episode drops. And if you're listening on one of the audio platforms, please leave us a review and a rating. It really helps us grow the show and book more awesome guests. See you in the next one.