‘Furious’ Season Finale With Star Emmy Rossum and Creator Liz Meriwether

For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphia, proper training is required. Tremphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit www.tremphiaradio.com For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject RIMFIA, proper training is required. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit www.tremphiaradio.com I need support to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk! Now! Hello and welcome to the watch! My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theRinger.com and joining me in the studio. He's wearing a tropical shirt! It's Andy Greenwald! Big Monday. Big Monday, we're going to talk about the furious finale here today. Andy, special guests, Liz Mary Weather, the creator of Furious and Emmy Ross and the star of Furious are joining you. Shortly, I unfortunately was not able to participate in that interview due to Ringer NFL Fantasy football commitments. I don't think people who are. I don't think the cast and crew of Furious would appreciate that. I just think they know who the ally is here. I did want to talk to you about the finale, which I thought was phenomenal, ending a fantastic first-season question mark. Give me some of your impressions about this finale, man. Here's the way we're going to do this. This is ready? Yeah. This is a phenomenal season of television. This is without question one of the best shows of the year. I would put this first season up against some of the other great, if this is only one and done, some of the other great one season wonders of the recent past, including I may destroy you, with which it cheers some DNA. I thought the finale was brilliant on its own terms, and especially excellent when you consider it as another example of the masterclass in pacing this entire season was, that it got to the end and had room for intrigue, for surprise, for slight of hand, narrative slight of hand, for humor, for a lot more romance than I expected, and then also for an ending that, as you were alluding to, was ambiguous in the best possible way. But I wanted to talk specifically when we talked about this episode, and I will of course talk about this as well with Emmy and Liz, an episode of three examples of face acting by Emmy throughout the episode. There are three moments that I think were just exceptional and so interesting and kind of frame the episode. At the beginning, we get what appears to be one of Alice's first ever smiles of excitement as she says dishonestly to Nora that she will not go into the house alone. The second bit of face acting comes much later in the episode when she takes Nora's advice and runs right at the most awful thing in the world and watches the video of her young self in the hideous evidence crypt room. The chamber, yeah. And the third is her expression at the end when Catherine says to her, you know, "Did you like how it felt?" And the expression that suggests any number of things, including a slightly demented future for Alice. Incredible performance all around and an incredible journey even within this episode for a character that has had a lot to do over the course of eight episodes. I think it's that last bit of face acting that struck me the most because one of my favorite parts about this show so far has been the moments of maybe not ambiguity morally, but ambiguity dramatically, and not being didactic, not repeating circumstances with dialogue when we can see on somebody's face how they're feeling about something. And when you're locked into the performers at the level of what Lola Predakru and Emirossum are giving you, you can kind of read your own story and you read your own emotional reaction into what their behaviors are dictating and rather than having them tell you, this is why I did what I did and how I feel about what I did. I think it's messier than that. And I think it's less simple than this was right or this was wrong or this was justified or that was unlawful. It's more fucked up and hazy and visceral and it's both at the same time. And very few television shows now do that because of market forces that demand that they let you know what's happening on screen while you're looking at your phone while it's happening. I thought that this was a show that always made a choice and always seemed to have an intention from the as we've pointed out many times before the incredible score that accompanies this and is a character and a character and into itself, the anamorphic shooting style, the performances. So yeah, like that's what stuck with me as that last moment. This show demonstrated an almost uncanny ability to understand what merited our attention as audience. It was unflinching in that in terms of what parts of the story to attend to and what parts not to attend to. And I think that to your point about like market forces and things. I also when we talk about tropes in this genre, there are often beats that are part of the transaction. Like you invest or you buy, you spend your time on something and you think you're going to be rewarded with certain types of scenes, like whether it's justice or violence being returned upon the perpetrator in some way. I think when I say this, I'm thinking specifically about what happens with Marshall, who is Jake Lacey's character, who gets a lot of screen time early on and in surprising and upsetting ways. His return from his gunshot wound two episodes ago was effective, devastating, and entirely appropriate. We see him at the end of the episode at a NYPD ceremonies in a wheelchair. It's unclear whether that is permanent or not. And he's been given a commendation for all of what that he did to bring down Catherine, which was not even on his radar. And he's getting a medal and he's getting a promotion. And that's about all the time we have for him. And it's reminding us one of the show's prudeless lessons, which is things don't really change. Certain circumstances change, certain people have opportunities to enact small vengeance or, you know, there may no longer be a J Eastern specifically, but there are many other J Eastons and the cycle continues. And in a way, the most horrifying line in the whole episode is Ed saying to Nora at the mansion, she was just a dead girl. And his calculus of the information that he got that led to a more splashy bolster national security to his mind far outweighs Isabelle's life, which was, you know, pointed in the wrong direction anyway. It's there's just a clarity of focus in the show about what matters and what it's trying to tell us that is really, really impressive and really hard to maintain. I thought also, you know, we've compared the show to killing Eve, you mentioned I may destroy you, you know, both talk both stories about female rage and and female women trying to find justice in this world. I also kept thinking about the wire while I was watching this last episode. I've been rewatching bits and pieces of the wire because there's an HBO channel that's just like playing it right now and I've forgotten the kind of nuances of when they're first setting up the cases in the first season of the wire and when they kind of culminate in the third season of the wire about the idea of what the real criminal is, who the real criminal is and what the real crime is rather than street drug dealing which may be a nuisance and may bring down lives. It's like more about like what's the political over structure that allows us to happen what is the institutional like culpability who are the major players that we need to be going after. That not satisfying the people who are like, but DeAngelo or Wallace or whatever. or say, I felt like there was echoes of that in this story. And you're confronted with like not only the differences between the way that the FBI and the police department are trying to go about their business in this show, but somebody who's so cravenly obviously evil, like Jason, somebody who's at least her belief in herself is that she is a victim, is Emma Easton. - That's what it's an amazing character. And we are at the end of this season, I think it's asking the audience to think about who that character is and what becomes of her. Rather than, if there is a second season, sure it could be the hunt for Emma Easton or whatever, but I think the show is gonna go somewhere else if it continues. - The last glimpse we have of her is of something spilling out of a bag she can't carry in her cut with the grave being dug. And it's really heavy to think about, like what are the victories, quote unquote, of the season? Isabel's defaced remains are recovered and moved from an unmarked grave to a mark grave? That's pretty much it. - Yeah. - Not to say that doesn't matter, but it's a question of like what Ed says to Nora, like there's something wrong with you for wanting to stay in the basement. - Yeah, you're sick. - You're sick for doing that. But then someone has to do it and the dignity of that and the rage that that hopelessness or the frustration that entails is so palpable in the show. I loved that, you know, and week one, you correctly as a long time viewer of things, quote unquote, like this pointed out to Scoot McNary's character, is there gonna be a turn? Is he gonna be McBain, does he whatever, but he was doing his best. And the show had room for him to have a potentially hopeful outcome, both romantically and in his own life. It had enough room for that shot of him telling Nora that he was just carrying his dirty laundry and then he flips his NYPD cap on backwards and he watched that moment. And I'm like, I don't know if that was Scoot McNary fucking around on Take 9, but it's so alive. - Yeah. - And you can't get it out of your head. And where do you find the room in the space for it? So how did you feel about the ambiguity of the ending? Would you like more of the show? Do you think it's primed for more? - I can't really get a sense for how commercially or audience-wise successful the show is. Obviously, critically, it's been really, really well-regarded. I would imagine giving the way it ends and giving the button on Catherine viewing her own footage and then seeing who's downloaded it and the usernames and all of that. Like that would give a runway for like what she's going to be investing in next season. It could also turn her into something of an avenging angel if this continues to be like. - But I think what's beautiful about that is you're right. There's the sense that there's been a baton pass between these women who shared a certain experience and a certain perspective. The idea that the way that even within this episode Liz, who wrote the episode, hid the ball of what actually happened to Jay Easton. Again, it's not like, you know, it's not like a usual suspects. It's not like a whoa twist, but the way that it stalled out is some beautiful narrative slide of hand. - When he, but first passes away, I was like, I wonder if his daughter tripled. - Yeah, there's something to think about. - Yeah, I was like, you see what it is. But what I'm really struck by at the end is that it sets up the idea that maybe Alice is going to become some sort of avenger as well. But this is not, this is 2026. This is the internet. There are 50,000 stupid names. Just stupid, you know, these are names. Some of these people might be evil, but some of them just are probably just men. And I don't think a second sees. I'm not saying you were saying this, but like I love the way it handed us a premise while also invalidating the premise, because she may be reckless, and I would imagine if the show continued, there would be more self-destructive tendencies professionally and otherwise for Alice. But she is not going to go into 50,000 user name killing spree. - Sure. - You know what I mean? And so I love the way it gave us. - I met more as she would, no, she would give now like legally, like she would, she would be like, here are the people that we need to know. - Maybe, but also what I love is that it suggested that what is anyone ever going to do, one drop in the ocean versus giant tsunami. And I, it's just a very rare alchemy, I think, to have a show that succeeds so profoundly on a creative level of like, Quincy Tyler Bernstein's performance, Danny McCarthy, who plays Ed George, which is an absolutely superstar, subtle supporting performance. Ariel Marx's score, the beautiful direction, Cory Finley in this episode, many others throughout the season, and just the humor and the heart and the life, so that when she walks into the bullpen at the end and choice there, I'm like, "Wow, this is a TV show." - That's what I mean. You have that. And yet it never lost sight of what the message and what the thematic weight of what the show wants to communicate with. Like that is a very hard thing to do both successfully and leave you after eight episodes, even wanting more. - Yeah, well, I can't wait to listen to your interview with Liz and Emmy and we'll get into that. And then we'll be back on Thursday to talk about lanterns and much more. So much more. I am so thrilled to be joined. Once again, on the pod by returning guests, the creator and showrunner of Furious, Liz Maryweather, and the executive producer and star, Emmy Rossam. Thank you so much for being here and congratulations on one of the best shows of the year. - Thank you. - Thank you so much. - We have to do a little housekeeping at the top because this interview is beginning right at the end of Chris and I spoke about the finale. And we spent a great amount of time talking about, well, if they do renew it, well, surely they will, but they might. And then we finished recording. And Hulu, I do believe tapped into our studio and waited until the moment we cut to send a press release. So we are not breaking news. But if you have been listening to this podcast, wondering what was wrong with me and with Chris, the show has been renewed for second season. Congratulations on that. - Thank you. - Thank you. - This was not news to the two of you, I imagine. - No, we were three weeks into the writers room. - Okay. - I feel like I was like three weeks into the writers room on season one and I was like, what season two? - I was thirsty. - You knew from the beginning. Was it designed from the beginning to potentially run multiple years? - Andy, no, nothing has been designed about this. I don't know how to design stuff. (laughing) I'm three weeks into the writers room on season two and I have no idea what's gonna happen. So yeah. - Should we use this as an opportunity for like growth and healing? Do you want to just sort of pitch Emmy on where you're at right now? - Yeah, let's do that. Let's bring Emmy in on some of your ideas. - Let's bring Emmy in on some of your ideas. - Yeah, let's do it. - In fact, let's train this live. (laughing) - It's thoughts. - Honestly, if you have thoughts on season two, please let me know. - Let me open up a different dock. I also do want to acknowledge that this will be on video and Liz, thank you for getting the memo about the dress code. - Yeah, we designed to dress exactly the same. - I appreciate it. - Yes. - We're both wearing a white shirt and we're wearing like a cool writer. - Yeah, we're just writers. - We're just writers. - Oh, they're so big. - Okay, the one shirt I'll wear on camera, whatever, I just threw it on. And sadly, Chris was wearing the same shirt as you and I showed him home. - A tropical shirt. - Yeah, that's why he's not here. - That is one of my favorite, I mean, I'm kind of like complimenting myself but is one of my favorite lines. - Is that why she wearing a tropical shirt? - Yeah, that's why we're in a tropical shirt. - It is one of the-- - It doesn't look like enough and that they're like, excuse me. I mean, well, it's a tropical shirt. I love it. I love that actor. He kept auditioning. We didn't cast him for multiple things and he kept coming in and I was like, the cop, the cop, that was exciting. - And the casting told me so much because the Greenwich Police Department allows you to have hair down to a certain length. It's not like the New Yorkians. You just know what I mean, they have a different-- - We got a little loose towards the end. - Sure. - And we're like, whatever, he's fine. - But genuinely, the tropical shirt moment is so special because to me, it captures what is amazing about the show. Even in the midst of one of the most frenetic and intense and emotional finalries in recent memory, you have room for a shirt joke. - Oh, I move for it. - Yeah, but I think you're always bringing life to even the smallest characters. Like in that moment where Eduardo comes to Ed George and is like, hey, I am also Ed Eduardo. - Yes. - And Ed George is like, tell me what's on the damn laptop. I think that there's such specificity of like, it's also setting up those dynamics, but it's so funny and it's so, it gives you the levity that allows you to go to the such dark places that you felt like. - It's honestly, I'm just so bad at naming. - She can't help herself. - I'm so bad at naming characters and it's like, this guy just needed a guy to work in tech and I was like, what am I gonna do? Okay, he's also Ed. I think there's something about kind of being like, very late in turning in scripts and being very tired and then you just like lose it and then you come up with Eduardo 'cause you have no other ideas in the middle of the night. - And yet now months later, we're talking about it. - Yeah, no, it's good. I mean, I will say like that sort of tropical shirt, that when we were cutting the finale, it was like, that scene in the, I don't even know what you call it, the like, - Safe room. - The room of hell where Jason hits his stash. That scene is so intense. And then there was probably another like five minutes of material outside the house that was like comedic. There was a lot of like cop banter and sort of, you know, a pissing contest kind of stuff. And I think you helped me, like you watch the finale and you were like, or somebody did where there was like, let's do a little less of that, like a Greenwich PD comedy 'cause it's like, that is the trend. with the show is kind of finding the balance and finding the tone and it was hard to go from you know really silly jokes back into that room and so it was for me it was just like this constant kind of feeling it out like how and but I think if we you know if you didn't leave that room I think it would be too much so it's kind of like just figuring out how to find that balance. The balance is amazing but I love specifically what you just said to me which is that there's room for life. Like I yeah I'm still hung up on a different moment from the finale which is when Scoot says he's just carrying his dirty laundry and he walks out with his hat on backwards. That was Scoot that wasn't in the sky. I wondered with the hat. Yeah you kept it you know and because it's like oh this is it reminds you that there's someone alive in here in these characters in this production and this whole process. I feel like it was something I learned with dying for sex because it was I think if you if you are going to go to these incredibly dark places you have to give people a chance to breathe or else they're just going to shut down. It's like too much so I think that was like I think in order to get people to listen you have to get them to laugh in the middle of it somewhere so yeah. It's something that Damon Lindelof once said to me about the difference between season one and season two of the leftovers was he remembered or someone reminded him that people laugh at wakes that they're not like a performance only of misery that there's life. You to see the dark you have to see the light and to know what is what the cost is like that there these people Alice and Nora like doing this incredibly difficult job and just trying to hold on to their souls trying to hold on to their humanity and then you want to see their humanity you want to see them like as people and then you kind of see how hard it is for them to keep that joy or keep that like humanity in all of it. Well that's specifically something Emmy you may have heard me say this we know Liz doesn't listen to the podcast so I can't I don't like I don't read reviews I just I can't engage I went down that path with New Girl and I like it took me years to climb out of it. I'm not going to sit here and tell you to read the internet I'm definitely not going to give you that advice. I think you're making the right choice. You mean you're not you're not reading the subreddits? I am definitely not on the subreddit but I a writer in our writer's room is on the subreddit and it's like constantly bringing in like thoughts on the subreddit. Well one thing that I was saying a lot in the first few episodes that really struck me was that you know if you were going to do the log line of the show or if someone is going to be sort of glib about writing about it they might say it is about you know traumatic events or traumatic histories but what I found so striking from the beginning was that it was very much about a present a present moment where people who may have they have experienced trauma they have been traumatized but they are alive right now and then what do we do and I I don't know if that's too heavy a thought but I wondered if that was something that was that existed in your in your writing or even Emmy in your prep in terms of how to become this woman and live in the immediate present of her life not consistently be pulled into her past. Yeah well I think you know I think the characters superpower was is choking on her tail. It's because it's because she pulled the bag too early see this is the problem just where people just people just tuning in. Emmy got her tea timing perfect. Liz wardrobe right but tea was a mess. Please please no I think the character's superpower is her ability to dissociate for herself. It when trauma comes up you see that she's squeezing her hands progressive muscle relaxation it's intentional to try to make those feelings subside to go away to put them back in the box. This is a character who has a lot of secrets. She doesn't believe she can get justice for herself doesn't maybe even think she's the right kind of person that is deserving of justice. So she's definitely also because of her trauma got obsessive tendencies definitely not diagnosed and puts that all into the work and stays extremely present and extremely driven on anything except herself and you know she buttoned all the way to the top doesn't want anyone to get close smells probably subconsciously intentionally to keep people away from her. She is driven in this moment to not look back and it's going to be this case that cause and you know having to come in contact with the ex and the kind of thread that she shares with this killer that is going to make all this stuff come up for her that's going to force her to kind of the rage is going to uncork in a way that like the pressure in that bottle has been it's been just there's a lot of white knuckling going on. I just think also I think you see the moment of trauma on TV a lot or you see you know the the thing that happens that's but you don't see the years the long tail of trauma right you know like you don't see the years after and the so I think there's a misunderstanding around the process of healing because you don't see it a lot because it's not dramatic you know it's like I get it the trauma part is more exciting but I think it was really interesting actually I spoke to a woman who had been trafficked Jay Benke who runs advocacy groups now and she was talking about her experience with the justice system was they kind of come in they want to get quote unquote justice punishment they want to get a sent you know someone sentenced but there's no engagement with what happens after that and sort of a long process of healing and how do you just like figure out how to be a person again after you've been trafficked and all this stuff so I I do think I'm proud of the show kind of like showing well one person became a serial killer but I'm proud of the show like showing the complexities of that and the difficulties of it and the you know how it doesn't make sense a lot of the times it has a very like non-linear healing is non-linear and complicated and messy and I think Emmy does an incredible job of showing that and performing that and just she just dove right into it great way I do want to ask eventually I'm going to have some questions about the genesis of the project but I want to stay on the finale just for a moment since people have just watched it and specifically there are three moments that really define the episode for me and they are three moments of face acting by you sure that are my favorite my favorite kind of acting it's not verbal feel free not verbal to do some now as well as my favorite what why was I working so hard now I love not talking my talking is my favorite kind of my favorite kind of acting just just hand her the two or one script and it's blank yeah it's like blank just close close on Alice she's face acts fade out beautiful um okay so here are the three moments I want to run by you and we could talk about them in the context of the character's journey and also the finale there's a smile on the way to Jay Easton's house when Alice lies to Nora about going in the house alone and it is one of at least to my my my my eyes one of the purest smiles the character is given during the course of the season the second is of course the long hold on your face when you watch the horrific video and there are there is intensity this reaction there's horror there's tears and then there is a second look the third is the I wrote in my notes hunter/hungry when you see that the 50,000 gross user names that people have downloaded the file that's the journey of Alice in the episode might also be the journey of Alice in the season I do have questions about the sort of granular process of finding those moments in a character that you've been building over the course of the season and then maybe to you list just about the journey the first one I don't think was a scripted reaction um she knows by this point that she has this kind of secret bond with Nora and Nora is kind of giving her the go ahead to go into that house and she also knows that Danny cares about her don't go into that house and that's ultimately even though she won't admit it to herself what she wants and also there's the excitement of I know I'm going into that fucking house and like you said on the pod like everything is converging on this like scary monster house which is like just so exciting like it's all coming to an apex and like something's gonna happen and then the second one is the watching of the tape um which I think trauma is so interesting because Alice has been wanting to get into that room since the first episode even when she goes down to to see 20 in the first episode she looks at the keypad and she wants in that room and we don't know why yet and I I don't know if she knows that that the tape how widely the tape exists I think she knows the tape exists didn't disclose it doesn't know how widely it circulated but like trauma is weird and we we block things out and I don't I think seeing the video is so incredibly painful at the same time as somehow feeling relief like you're not crazy and also like just watching your young self get hurt is just like really horrific um and it's weird because trauma is so weird and associative we can like misremember things all the time which is obviously what's happening with Catherine and yesterday two two days ago I was at lunch with Quincy and we were talking about when we were training for this and then Quincy plays Nora plays Nora you guys went to an FBI we went we got snuck on to West Point we like laid flat and a truck and got snuck on to West Point I had already been training we played flat we laid flat I don't know I think we were just like this is crazy but like I want to do everything like yeah any kind hello these West Point check all your trucks anonymous tip from a concerned US citizen. - But I had been shooting guns and preparing and clearing rooms and training with XFBI and XNYPD for a year. Quincy was cast right before we started shooting. And I said, do you want to shoot guns? Like, let's make this real for us. And so I got us snuck onto West Point. - We'll circle back, don't worry. - We'll circle back. They gave us the training. They told us how to interrogate people, told us how to make connections with suspects. They gave us firearms to shoot. And then they were like, do you want to do grenades? Yeah, you don't know this story. And my remembering of it when we were at lunch yesterday was like, oh no, thank you, we're all good. And Quincy was like, no, you did the grenades. - What? - And I was like, I did the grenade. And she's like, 100% you were shaking. You were terrified. - What does it mean when you say, I did the grenade? - You call the grenade and throw the grenade and it blows up. It blows up. Like on this crazy hill. - If anyone from Kulu, HR is listening. It did not notice. - Also, if anyone from the US Army is listening, please let us know if "Due the Grenade" is what you say in basic training. - It's definitely not. - Okay, soldiers, time to do the grenade. (laughing) - And be fabulous when you do it. - I know, I was just picturing a dance. - You're so good. - We're doing the grenade. - In any case, allegedly I did the grenade. I have no memory of this. Quincy definitely remembers this. I guess I was like, I am all for like, let's do whatever it takes to make this as real as possible. - Sure. - So I did the grenade. So in any case, I think you can misremember things. And when things have been scary or adrenalized or traumatizing to you, you don't remember them. So I think when she's watching the video, she's like, I know now this really happened. We're right because this is 25 years ago. And you can definitely remember something happening, but seeing it is somehow crystallizing. Like, yeah, I am a fucking warrior. I am a survivor. Like, that was a child and that's not me anymore. And then she sees the names and the number, 50,000 plus people have watched this victimization. And I think that's like, okay, now I'm galvanized with this information. I don't know what I'm going to do with it. Liz will decide in season two. - I'm sure she's already decided. - She's already decided. - Now you're going to do a grenade. - I'm going to do a grenade, I settled. - I just want to say like, we shot, I'm going to just jump in. No one wants to hear my thoughts. - Where did you see it? - I'm in the exact, everybody wants. - I always want to hear your thoughts. - You're good. I was there when we shot her watching the video. And I mean, it's just like this is when you know you're dealing with like a powerhouse actor because Emmy was able to kind of, we talked before we shot the first take, but every take was different. And then she did kind of levels of reactions. Like we did a version that was just very, you know, stone face we did and then she worked up to tears. And then we were kind of like between every, she's an incredible actor and also an incredible producer because the ability to kind of give that present amazing performance and then kind of come back afterwards and be like, that worked, I felt like this was good. Let's do, you know what I mean? Like that's, it was, it was so moving. And also she was like, you're going to use the tears. And I was like, of course I'm going to use the tears. What are we talking about? I will also say the relationship between your camera operator in that moment and the actor, you're in that scene together, right? Because you're looking down the barrel of the lens and the camera operator is disclosed to you and nobody else is in the room. So it really, really is amazing to have operators like we had Philip and Wilda, who are human beings that are like actors in the room with you. And they hold that space with you. And I can't say enough about how important the crew is to scenes like that. But we just, I think we, I think one of the reasons that we did so many different versions of it was because it was, it's kind of unimaginable, right? Like what do you, how do you react to that? And I love what you just said, 'cause it's actually, it is something we're talking about in the writer's room right now of like this video is like, it's horrifying that it's out there, but it's also, it's like, you do have proof of it. It's like actual tangible proof. Trauma's tangible in a way that I think is like, it lingers and it feels like you can't wrap your hands around it and now you can. 'Cause this season, when I sort of put it together that it was gonna be about Catherine trying to remember what happened or which was like a huge victory in terms of structure and all of that. But it was so much about memory, memory distortion, which is the name of the third episode, but just the whole justice system is built on people being able to remember what happened to them and testify that to what happened to them. - Yeah, with confidence. - Which is a complete opposite of the experience of being a victim. So I think that, I don't know, I had a point, but I'm just gonna stop talking about that. - One of the other reasons why I loved the show is because the show felt incredibly decisive about what it was and where it was going, even if it didn't always feel that way in the process. And I have to say, sometimes I really like it when shows reveal my own cowardly nature because there was a part of me that was so invested in the series that when she clicked on it and when Nora had said, go look for it, that it would be gone. That she had cleaned it up, that she had taken care of her on a friend level, not a professional level, which would not have worked for character for show. And so there was a, I like when I got called out by it, because I didn't want that for them. And I wondered though, because the other thing that I admired so much in the season, and we can get into a few other examples of it, was the pacing that there was room for so much within, it's not a conventional story, but we have seen cat and mouse type stories before. So this finale had room for exciting twists and the surprise at the end, it had room for emotion. It had a surprising amount of room for romance, which I was very happy about, but did not necessarily see coming. And it had that collision point at the end that might lead into a second season. So I wondered, Liz, if there were any of the things I'm mentioning, specific beats that you knew you were writing to from the beginning. - Romance. - Even if only that. I wondered if you did have like a North Star from that episode. - Yes, I knew that she loved Danny and Danny loved her. But I didn't know that we were gonna take it all the way. I'll go all the way if you will do the grenade. - Do the grenade, do the consenting adults, sure. - But yeah, I think at that point, I, I think I needed them to be in that condo. Like I was just, I felt, I was so in it when I was writing that finale. I didn't know how they were gonna get out of the house. And I remember writing the finale and I actually had a panic attack. Let's talk about mental health, but no. - Please, this is my favorite topic. - I had a panic attack because I was like, it was like art imitating life where I was writing them in the Eastern house and I didn't know what they were gonna do to get out of the house. But I, so I was like, I feel like I'm in the house. You know, it was so insane. It was so hard to write that finale. And then I was just such a relief to write the scenes in the condo where I was, I think the part of me that worked on seven seasons of the will they are one day was like, I'm doing this too soon. But I needed them to like get that win and sort of like have that moment of love because I just felt like we'd all been through so much that I like wanted her to feel tenderness and love and like, you know, and I liked that it kind of exists outside of the world. Like it's, you know, New Jersey, which it's out of space. - Literally, yeah, it could be any. - But like, it's like, you know, it's sort of not their normal lives. It's like this other kind of place. - I will just as a side note, say that my older daughter out of nowhere yesterday or two days ago said, do you know that Jess and Nick don't kiss for like 74 more episodes? (laughing) You know, we used to build things in this country, okay? - No, for your instant TikTok ratification. - That's really funny. - Let's, I wanna go back to the beginning because you know, when the show was announced and the show premiered, there was a lot of talk about a, to my mind, I did not know the film Black Widow. I did not remember it. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the genesis of the project was one of you, a secret Black Widow obsessive was how did, how did, how did the project come together and how did you two partner on it? - Well, you are a Black Widow, right? - Yes, yes, I killed so many of my husbands. (laughing) - I, I warned Sam constantly. - All right, he has been on the phone a couple years. - I know, it's true, 'cause I killed him. - Nobody's seen it. - He was out last night. - He was seen. - Plausible deniability, it's about you being seen at last night that saved him. - That's true. - No, I went back and I spent a summer watching old movies looking for an idea. Looking for something that would be a jumping off point. I had developed the show Angeline at Hulu at first before I ended up making it a peacock. So I started looking in the searchlight category catalog and I just looked at log lines and watched all the movies that I thought might spark something. Black Widow is one with Deborah Winger and Teresa Russell. I had made a movie with Teresa Russell when I was 14, so it was super high called Passionata. It was super high on my list of like, I wanna watch this one 'cause I remember working with the actress. And I watched the movie and the first half is like Cat and Mouse Deborah Winger plays this FBI agent who's in this like gross boys club misogynistic environment, no one's taking her seriously and I was like, okay, well that tracks for contemporary day, not much has changed. [BLANK_AUDIO] And the killer who you know from the first scene is the killer, I felt that was pretty refreshing too. They're giving it to you up front and it's this kind of there on this collision course. And then the back half, these two women who were both kind of lonely and kind of need a friend end up meeting under false pretenses on this beach in Hawaii or wherever they are. And there's this amazing set piece that I kept trying to convince Liz we had to put in the first season. We're not going to a Croatian beach. I was on board. I was like, I want to go to the beach. you're so aligned that you're able to put those pieces in. And Liz had always wanted a musical tapestry for the show that felt very unique. And when we were talking about it, I said, it should feel very female. So maybe that's a vocal pad or maybe it's a. Like maybe we. - Oh, the music. - The music for Ariel's score. So like really kind of, my job as a producer is to fully understand how to get as close to Liz as she will let me get. Literally get inside her shirt to understand her. So that every choice that I'm helping make is advocating for the vision of the showrunner. And what a joy and as an actor to be able to be that close to your showrunner so that every choice that they're thinking and marinating about is also affecting the way that you're understanding character and the way that you're understanding tone. - Honestly, I was really scared 'cause I worked with actors as EP's before, but whenever one that has been like hands-on, and I was like, oh my god, like I'm. - Yes. - I was like, how's this gonna work out? - Yeah, scared. - And Emmy was just incredible. Like I think it's also about space, you know? 'Cause like you have to fail. And it's like usually. - She's like, don't get that close. - Yeah. - Please, don't get inside my shirt. - She's got a grenade. - Yeah, don't. - Don't call him into the grenade. - I was sneaking with a wagon into my brain. But no, I think like, I'm used to kind of coming to actors with a mostly finished product. So it's scary to me to like allow an actor into a process where you're kind of like, this isn't right yet, you know? And Emmy was like an incredible partner in that way 'cause she understood the process. I mean, the music Ariel did dying for sex as well and I loved working with her. And the music was like such a journey. It was the tone of the show, honestly. I had an idea as I was writing it while we were shooting it. And then post, I think it was like a whole other journey because there was a kind of flamboyance to the show or like a sort of, it's not like, it's not like gritty, gritty, gritty dark, dark dark. And I want it to kind of like. - It's a buoyancy. - There's a buoyancy, thank you. That's better. - Well, you gave me a long time to find it. - Yeah, how it, that like. - Yeah, that kind of work with it. It's not like drab, it's not desaturated. Like we really wanted it to feel like it wasn't. - And so, Ariel had this like amazing, there's a kind of jazziness to the music and then there's underlying female vocals that kind of grow as it goes on. And we called the female vocal score like the sort of ghosts of the past, you know? Like the, you know, and so letting those voices get louder and louder over the course of the show, obviously, to kind of, you know, take us from the beginning, which has a more buoyancy and more jazz and to the end. But that was surprising. That kind of like jazz and like the new R kind of feeling to it. I didn't see when we started and then kind of. - But this is something that's hard to articulate, but that we try to talk about on the podcast too, which is the best things can only happen when there's space to discover them. You know, if you went in with like a color palette before you even cast all the parts or before you got on set or met the directors, it's gonna hold it captive, right? It'd be you discovered this. - It's the worst and best part of doing a show, because you feel so scared to be like, "I don't know." And I do think like, as a showrunner, it's taken me a long time to be able to say, "I don't know," or to say, "That's a place where I can let other people find it." And then go with what their vision is, you know? And I think your job is like to have a vision to communicate it and then to give people the space and the safety to bring their own work to it. And it took me a very long time to figure that out. - Yeah, well. - Still figuring it out. - No, you're good, man. - Yeah, I'm gonna say, we have to talk about Lola Petacru, the last time. I think I saw them was in saying nothing, which is an incredible show that I think was under scene. I think it was well seen. It was still under scene. I think it's an incredible achievement. And they're bringing to life a historical figure from very young age to some pretty hard experiences. Nothing in that performance gave me the slightest sense other than the power of their ability that they could do this. How did you find Lola and what was the process like to discover Catherine? - I mean, we had auditioned a lot of people and the amazing actresses came in and Lola just has this ability to scare the shit out of you and break your heart at the same time. I don't know. I mean, I was like, how were you going to cast this part? Emmy's more positive person and I'm always like, we're not gonna be able to find it. We're not gonna be able to do it. And then we saw Lola and it was like, they captivated all of us, scared us, and also you feel for Catherine. And I was like, to go on a eight episode journey with a serial killer, I'm like, you can't be, you know, you have to feel, you have to have feelings about this person rooting for them at some level and then also just genuinely believe that they could kill people. But Liz's writing is so strong that even though Lola was like the slam dunk obvious winner and the performance is incredible, I would say there were so many people that auditioned that were so strong because the strength of the material is such that it's so bold, even for Nora, even for the Danny McCarthy role. Like I just think that when the scenes are that strong, you're watching these audition tapes and you can't stop watching them. - Which there's no small parts on me or something like that, but there were no small butts allowed. - No, no, that's all out. - BVL, the series. - I'm just 12 years old. - This is great. - It's what I'm realizing. - But just that like, the Danny McCarthy, I keep coming back to him because it's like, that part could have been a zero. And instead the part is a 10 out of 10, like I'm so excited to see him, he's so weird, he's so funny and with Scoot has his boot on his face. - Yeah, that's so great. - There's just everything is an opportunity. Like you were saying, a small choice can become something quite memorable. There's a larger point to be made, and this is probably the least correct podcast to make it about how I think you alluded to it. I mean, how deeply female the show is and how the perspective at every moment in the show is of a, it's not a secret language, but it is a female language that the female characters understand about what happens when you walk into a room, who they're looking at, what they're looking at, how they are being seen. And the men are essentially clueless about all of it. Maybe Alden is the one person who understands a little bit of it because of his disability. This is the most cliched, and I'm embarrassed to even ask a question after that preamble, which is, now I wanna ask about the fellas. - Sure. - Let's ask about the bros. - Come on. - Let's do the dudes. - But, but, sincerely though. - Where is this going? - This is the show, this is the language of the show. - Right. - Jake Lacey and Scoom McNary are in the show as different avatars of masculinity and to play different roles in Alice's life. I was curious about the process of casting those parts and then specifically Emmy working with them. So intimately with such different emotional language within the large archetype of Alice lives in this world, not necessarily their world. Did I get there? - Yeah, totally. - I think I pulled a muscle around, sorry. - You know, I mean, Liz had watched this doc called A Better Man. That is- - Everybody should watch it, except it's not available, which is like the, you know. - Is it on YouTube? - I spent 50, it was $50 to rent, and I was like- - We should figure out how to get it out there. - Yeah, it's gonna be my next job. It's an incredible documentary about a couple that is meeting up to talk about their relationship, which ended years ago, that was very abusive. And it's about how they're meeting now, how they're both remembering it. It's very heartbreaking, it's very human. And I didn't feel like when you sent that to me, like blew the doors open on my ideas of what violence and relationship really looks like. And I think Liz has crafted such an interesting portrait of this relationship between Alice and Marshall. This relationship has lasted 25 years. - Yeah. - She was at Moments and Oasis, a family, a lover, a coworker, trusted person to watch her back on the street and then became something that was violent and controlling and manipulative. And you need an actor that can not just play the bad guy, because when you watch this- - It's too easy. - Yeah, it's also just not the way it is. And it does a disservice to the women too, to not see their experience and their confusion. And their complicated feelings about those relationships, so you needed an actor that could bring that. And Jake is just a class A actor. He is funny, he is vulnerable, he is strong, he's powerful, he's scary. And he's also just like the nicest dad ever. So when you're doing these scenes with him, we just trust fell into each other and we had an intimacy coordinator at all times with us. And we really felt that we could build the understanding of this relationship. I would say the whiskey waterboarding scene was definitely the one that we were just both the most stressed about. - Yeah. - And we got the time on the stage in days prior to kind of do the blocking and work it out with our director, Destiny and Liz was there and the coordinator was there. And you know- - You're both just so open and fearless. and taking care of each other because it's like you're shooting stuff like that and it's like it's tough. You're going to these hard places and you need to kind of take care of each other and Jake was an amazing partner in that way. I mean it was just really important. Everything I mean side of just so important to show that character as a human being. I think it's so easy for people especially nowadays to make things black and white to say this is a bad person, this is a good person and I never wanted the show to allow people to to make those kind of calls and also people blame women for staying. People don't or they don't understand why women stay in these relationships and there's so many reasons why economic reasons, emotional reasons and the justice system again kind of like once people to like very clearly say this person did something wrong this person is a victim and these relationships are so complicated anyway so I just I think like Jake had when I spoke to him before we cast him he just understood that you know he just really understood that and now I think he's like can I please play a good guy but no I mean it was he's I think it's good and it's like it's good and credible yeah he has like a he's just so real I don't know like I feel like he's like he's just one of those actors that's just like sits and it lives it you know and like he has this quiet there's so much depth there he's just quiet depth which is so fun because I don't because you don't have to write a lot you know it's like his face says so much it does great face acting as they say yeah he just got a deep well of empathy too and he walked that line between right and either of these men are perfect either scoots character Danny has a difficult time loving Alice with the history that she has with the he that's not her fault he can't he he he wants to save her she doesn't want to be saved and he is having a difficult time holding her trauma and I I think that that isn't something I've seen before yes the effects the aftershocks of years ago trauma on a woman's partner um that to be is a fascinating dynamic and also his character I sat with a NYPD homicide detective or former homicide detective for about an hour named Mike Haybert and um just he he I you think of a NYPD detective as like you know talking a lot or I don't know you know like Dennis Dennis Franz I don't know but like he had this quiet this quietness and he's he says like some of I took some of the things he said but like my job is to listen my job is to let people talk or to see the worst things no one should see is my job and to and to kind of like hold that for people yeah and that it was such an interesting amazing conversation because I was like that character made sense to me then it was like okay this is a man who like does look at the worst thing and can sort of take it he can take it and he sits with it and he you know what I mean so like I it it it was interesting to me that we think of law enforcement as like action pack right I think because of some a lot of TV shows I mean and again I understand why things need to be action yeah those are great shows but I do think there's a kind of like they they hold back because they want you to do the talking they want you to reveal yourself you know I thought that was really interesting we're so bad at ambiguity I just feel like culturally and so the whiskey waterboarding scene I mean there is so much history on screen in that moment and so many criss-crossing wires of wants and needs and who are we as the audience who are we rooting for like what do you know and what games are we playing with each other yes and what is the where's the line for that's okay to be you can be victim up to this point in this kind of the show's thesis yes how do you guys then as the creative leads of the show hold hold space for that throughout you know how do you get the directors who come on the guest stars to come on the writers in the writers room to understand that we are going to it might be easier to lean one way or the other but we are going to try to sit in the uncomfortable spot because I think that's really the triumph of the season yeah I mean just to go back to the kind of femaleness of the show versus the fellas okay guys we can take five we're the fellas sorry no say more about that no I that I think what was kind of fun and this does go into your question what was fun sort of and I set out at the from the beginning with all the designers who are incredible people incredibly talented was just how do we look at like what does female violence look like you know and and I think that waterboarding scene is an interesting example of you kind of bring him close to you and then you do it and I think that Catherine does the same thing like that female violence all the violence in the show is coming from a place of intimacy it's coming from a closeness like these aren't characters who are like shooting at each other from far away it's like if you're going to kill someone it's going to feel almost like like any kind of violence is going to feel like a sex scene and you know a lot of way so that was like something that we spoke a lot about and just um the idea of like the raw chicken and the curling iron you know like these like kind of female like cooking and tool you know like that and um that was just the fun that was just a fun kind of like thing to to say is our north star a little bit in those meetings and kind of think about like how do we go about this in a different way in a you know quote unquote female way yeah I think that even if you are if you're lucky enough to be ignorant about some of the realities or lived experiences of trauma or trafficking and things even understanding or learning to understand the Catherine is using her body but she is she's using it as opposed to being used to get closer to people is at first you know it's it's uncomfortable it's it's surprising and it's jarring but you the show continues to follow that path in a way that at least in my mind felt at honest yeah about experiences um did I answer that question because I feel like I you mean like how do we do I write back no no guys we take five talk more about the fellow who's calling out the guys though right um sorry god guys right they're the best I mean they're just cool hangs on complicated you guys watch the game last night um no I I I I think the I think that you did I think that because this is I mean even talking about you guys are the captain of the ship and so if this is what interested you if this is how you wanted to see these familiar things subverted expressed well it's it's it's also interesting because I'm in this use into writer's room and I think like our brains are so wired for female victimhood as a way of creating stakes yes situations and working on but working on putting the sympathy oh I'll put it with her yes yes and so I think it was like I had to always check myself throughout of like you know are we like I don't ever want to feel too sorry for somebody you know I want to kind of like keep all the characters tough and sort of spiky and like that I don't want sympathy you know what I mean like I don't want the characters to be like people to feel sorry for them so that was like I did feel like I had to check myself and I am checking myself a lot in the writer's room of like that speech that Nora gives at the in the first episode about everyone loves it when there's a yeah a little naked not I don't make it but dead girl cut and pieces yeah why did I put naked in there no usually naked I gotta think about that yeah um yeah but in that finale ed's like it was just one dead girl yeah yeah yeah yeah and his moral Calcutta takes my broth away yeah I didn't I was probably gonna die anyway I had cut the part about peeing on him because I was like this is insane I can't put this on the show and then I told I'm pretty dear it's ready now you didn't have blah blah and I told Cory Finley who directed the finale did such an incredible job but I was like we were laughing and I was like oh you know I'd actually put this thing about like him peeing on him in there and he was like put it back and he's like what are you doing um another north star was kind of like we never want to be exploitative of female pain and trauma in first story purposes like it's like and it's so easy to kind of fall into that trap I think because it's so it's a part of our storytelling language it feels familiar yeah as an audience I'm sure as people noting it I'm sure even in a room you could be like well at least that's taken care of before the other 100 oh you feel sorry for her okay great we got we got it yeah yeah we got a feeling yeah feelings check yeah let's go back to being fellas come on hey guys I'm sorry why am I attacking you you're like really nice to have me on no no I deserve it it's fine it's good for me am I furious I can't tell all these women are mad at me okay so Amy I'm gonna ask you this because I think Liz has a complicated relationship to this question but what are you excited about for a season two of the show and if you'd like to take notes that's fine too I know I've texted Liz so many of which is someone which gets thumbs up and some of which gets no response and I can take a hit some get left on red yeah I think she has her deliver deliver messages off so I'll never know that's good I'm like Christopher Nolan someone has to print it out for me fellas did you get my emails I'm excited for what Alice does with this big secret yeah right some of her secrets have been exposed and now spoiler alert she's killed someone yeah And I think the way that lives set that up in that last episode with the mystery act and how it's revealed in the last seconds It's so powerful. It's so well done. It's so fun. It's the best kind of mystery act where it makes sense and you find it new But you weren't sure and that it's kind of like I guess he just died. I guess he did die peacefully. It is bad Okay, well, I guess they made that choice. I guess that feels unchecked. Okay But Alice is really good at burying things and really good at keeping secrets. So I'm really interested to see How that affects her. I'm interested to see kind of You know what happens with Danny now that he has been You know taken he's decided to step back. He doesn't want to look at things anymore and her eyes are wide open Yeah, and Nora's like you got to look I'm also Obsessed with the interpersonal dynamics between Choi and Nora and Yara with the baby and how I She had a baby. I don't know what it is. Got a lot of Boarding ahead of hair. I'm excited to I'm just excited really for whatever Liz can cook up and any of my text messages that They get I'm thumbs up acknowledgments. You'll feel good about that I left my own devices. It'll just be like an office comedy. Great. Great. They're all just great But when when when when he kneels down also when Nora is And she doesn't even have a shoe lace. Did you not want me to do this will we do anything? This makes me so happy Yeah, I mean I I'm so happy that we're doing another season. I want to say that I get another read on that line One with cheers. I'm so happy. I'm how I just Your consideration Liz Maryweather Obviously we're so lucky to get another season. It's just it's hard. I've been doing limited I've did you know two limited series before this and I remember The experience of new girl. I remember that kind of like excitement of the first season and then you like You're like, okay, we got to keep doing it and it's you know, it's just like there's I just never want to like let people down and it's just kind of like trying to but I think whenever I go to my deepest darkest Most anxious places I come back Thinking about the characters because I love these characters. I love Alice. I love Nora I love Danny. I love the whole world of it And so I just get excited to be like, well, what are they up to? Like what are those crazy cats up to and kind of like that calms me down when I When I get really special about Liz's work is because it always starts from character Interest in psychology interest in dynamics. It never starts from here's a cool thing that could happen Right plot comes from character characters choices and that's why I think it feels so Able to you're able to understand all the choices people make you're like you're never like oh well That would never that person would never do that because it's built from that and that's why I think Liz's work is Really hitting and appealing to the actors too and why we feel like we can go so deep within it Yeah, I think that also it's just you've done both now and you You know the first season is what it is and you can't I think it's almost like fool's goal to try to chase There's another case that Alice is also a victim in and hunting and it's all you know You've done that until now. What is next for it right like it becomes a different show and maybe that's a good thing I had an interviewer last night because we did an event. Yeah, and he was like I really felt like he was the voice in my head like he was like you must feel a lot of pressure No, we did not It's like please stop talking sir. That's fun. Yeah, no, I mean I I don't I you know Fortunately and unfortunately there there are a lot of um Areas we can go into about you know sex crimes trafficking yeah violence against women So you know, that's another thing that kind of keeps me going is that there's there's so many stories that need to be told and Um, yeah, I don't know to tune tune in uh To people still say that because it's like on the computer now. Yeah, they say it. Okay. You're not like adjusting your tv antenna Maybe someone is I think that's okay. I just love it. You're the new dick wolf. You just think like you're just the king and your crime shows I really I do I said I said this to you before the podcast But it's like I there were definitely moments where I'm like how did I get myself in a situation where I'm writing multiple seasons of a crime show like I just Um like as I said, I would be so happy to write the office comedy version of this show with just like Nora Running upstairs You're gonna send more texts. I think I know I think I actually need more text from you. Okay. I'm happy too guys Thank you so much. This is thank you. It's a pleasure to see you both again and talk to you and really the show is an incredible achievement And thanks for sharing it with us. Thank you so much come back for season two. I can't wait to see how excited You're gonna be great. I'm excited. There's gonna be lots of snacks jokes. I know that just cheese balls Yeah, lots of snacks jokes. Lots of Doritos jokes right in and out. Let's throw some eating into a scene We always do and that'll be great. Yeah, maybe some fellows. I don't know maybe some fellows. Hey, let's get the fellow I don't want to be too hard on that, but I do think there's some opportunity there We do some more fellows and some more snacks like one of these ladies so furious about Huh that guy that guy's gonna kill Just light pitch that character now We cut five minutes ago, right Thanks Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out That's very illegal So there goes my big idea for the commercial give it a try at mint mobile com slash switch up from payment of $45 for three months 90 Dollars for six months or $180 for 12 months plan required $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees extra Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes me slow when network is busy see terms the most memorable gifts aren't found They're made Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product a mug a card a tote a phone case and make it personal a photo A name an inside joke the kind of gift that actually fits the person That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find right now Save 25% on your first order at zazzle.com. That's zazzle.com make it z amazing