The average employee spends about five hours every single day typing. That's the part of the day that we first go in and capture. You can speak much larger and contextual prompts than you can type. What Whisper does is it tags all of the files that you want and also gets variable names, right? So we actually don't look at other software companies for inspiration. Because most software companies are terrible at building habits. What I look at are games. The key metric that we have in our team is not ARR. It's not a number of users that we track. The key thing that we track is how good of a job are we doing to build a habit of voice. But you actually got the brain to text working. Like you don't have to even talk. You do not have to even talk. You want me to show you a little sneak peek of it? All right, welcome everyone. My guest today is Tene co-founder and CEO of Whisper Flow. You know, Whisper Flow is generally one of my favorite apps. I probably use it as much if not more than ChatGT because it lets me talk to AI to get work done. And I'm really excited to get him to show us his advanced tips to get the most out of Whisper Flow and also how he builds such a great product. So welcome, sir. Thanks a lot for having me, Peter. It's been great getting to know you over the last few weeks and super excited to do this with you. Yeah, it's a great problem, man. But I think you probably know a few more advanced tricks than I do. So maybe you can show our audience here how Whisper Flow works. Yeah, of course. So TLDR, Whisper, simple product, runs in the background, and it basically lets you use voice across anywhere on your computer. And the biggest thing that makes it different is it actually gets what you say and it fixes mistakes for you and structures things out, which no other voice tool does until today. So what I can do is I can actually share my screen and show a few examples of how power users of Whisper use it day and day out. And I'll show a few different examples that highlight some of the best things about Whisper. So here's one, what I'm writing emails. It's really helpful because I have to do this about a hundred times a day. Hey, Peter, there's three things Whisper does really well. It's insanely fast, it's insanely accurate, and it gets names right. And what you see is it knows I'm in an email so it structures things perfectly for me, it puts things in a bullet list, small things like putting the, the colon here as well, and knowing how to spell Peter's name, because it grabs the context as well from what you're doing. Yeah, this is great because normally I have to like, with other voice tools, I have to like, now you edit it to make it, you know, in bullets to some words and stuff, but here I can just send. So it's great. Yeah, exactly. And the other good thing is you can also change your mind and it understands that as well. So for example, hey, want to do our podcast at five o'clock? Actually, let's do 530. And it fixes that for me, even if I change my mind on the go. So you can just always trust Whisper to get things right for you. That's awesome. Yeah. And let's talk about the matter. Let's talk about the snippet. Yeah. So this is a new thing we released, which has become a massive hit, where you can have something like this, where there's something context about Whisper that I have to drop into every single prompt that I do. Right? And I can just say Whisper intro to do that. And so if I'm in loveable, making a new product, I'd be like, Whisper intro. Can you make a reference dashboard please? And this just lets me do that immediately in my flow without having to copy paste this from my prompt library, whatever. And we're actually going to launch a new thing that has the best prompts across the world that everybody in our community contributes. So you don't have access to just your prompt, but the best of the best. Yeah, this is safe, so much typing. Yeah, this is great. I need to use this feature. Yeah, we need to get you on a Peter. Yeah. You know, the other thing when we see developers use Whisper a lot for is it essentially becomes the primary thing that they use when they are coding. And so Cursors, one of the products I love use all the time. And similarly with Cloud Code, Windsor, if this works across the board, we had a lot of our developers using Whisper for all the prompt writing that they were doing because you can speak much larger and contextual prompts than you can type. But we added some more fun things into it. For example, hey, can you look at auth.ts, constants.ts, and media manager.ts, and fix the bugs across all of them. And what Whisper does is it, it tags all of the files that you want. And also gets variable names, right? Yeah, this is great. I used Cursor to vibe code a lot. And yeah, you can't really feel the vibes if you're just typing all the time. So like the real vibe kind of is you just got to talk to yeah, in like a park room. Yeah, that makes a huge difference. And the next biggest thing that we see, you know, is there's a lot of companies that are starting to adopt Whisper flow across the entire org. Right? But they have an open office plan. So how they do it is with the the whispering mode, where you can actually speak insanely quietly. And Whisper still picks it up. You know, like when my work, I often have to go into the conference or man, like because it's like, I just want to talk to you. Yeah, like I don't want to talk to my coworkers. I want to go talk to AI. Yeah. So it's actually good that yeah, I mean, it's in the name. You got to support the whisper functionality. Because one of the main reasons why we we wanted to kind of build in the spaces. I think voice overall has so much potential. But it still hasn't been something that has that the people use day in day after everything that they're doing. And he wanted to change that we wanted to make voice a lot more accessible. And that requires a lot of smaller problems that need to get solved. For example, that being insanely fast, for example, it being actually something that you trust, now making mistakes, having it be something you can use when you're around other people, when you're sleeping in bed beside your fiance, it should just be something that you can you can continue using. And so there's a lot of problems that come out from there, both on the machine learning side, signal processing, the UI of it that we need to go out and solve. Yeah, you know, my semi-year-old doesn't even know how to type yet. But like she knows how to use whisper flow and you know, like other voice input tools to like talk to AI and get stuff done. So I think that next generation is not even going to like why even type just just use a voice. Well, that's incredible. Yeah. So let's let's let's do a little bit of a look back, right? So like right now the company is pretty successful. I'm sure a lot of people will include myself for using it every day. But you went through quite the journey. Like I see your post on LinkedIn. And in fact, there was a pivot where you went from a hardware company to what whisper flow is now, right? Can you talk about that a little bit? Of course. So the mission of the company was always the same as I wanted to change how people interact with technology and make it just as effortless as talking to a close friend. So growing up, whenever I saw anybody on their phone or computer, it just felt so effortful and so mechanical and not how I want technology to feel like at all. And so 2021 GPT-3 just came out. Me and my co-founders say, as you're looking at that and we're like, people are going to be speaking to their machines in the next few years. Well, when that happens, what happens when you're around other people? You want privacy? You don't want to disturb them? Well, you need a way to still use voice then. And so we need to solve the problem of silent speech. How do you talk to a computer without making any sounds? And so what we built was a valuable device. It looked like a little blue to the earpiece that you could put on and it would go from thoughts to text. Wow. And we worked on it for three years, 40 PhDs, machine learning, signal processing, electrical, mechanical, neuroscience. And we actually got this thing to work. Wow. Yeah. And so we started with that. And then when it started to work and this we're talking, this is not too far back. This is like May or June of 2024. We connected with chat GPT, Siri, Alexa and all sucked. And so we realized we had to build our own system that goes from your rambly thoughts into something that is structured and ready to send. And we unsurprisingly called that flow OS. Now at that time, it used to only run on that hardware device, but I wanted to send it to some friends. So I wrapped it in a desktop app. Those two friends became five, became a hundred, became a thousand. And that product started to explore. And that was when in August of 2024, we made the hard decision of focusing the company entirely on building flow because the thing we realized is before people need a hardware for voice, they need to build the habit of voice. And we had hoped somebody would solve that problem, but nobody did. And so this was the first thing that we needed to build if we want to see, if you want to build the kind of world that we want to see. Wow. Wait, but you actually got the brain to brain to text working. You don't have to even talk. Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a game changer. That sounds like neuralink or you know, I mean, that that is a game changer, right? It is like neuralink, except it doesn't need brain surgery. So I don't have it live on me right now, but what I do have is one of the videos that we recorded with Sehege in his kitchen. And this is even before we started the company, right? This is the first prototype that we made of what this would look like. And at that time, we got it to do about 10 words that it could detect that you were thinking about. Later on, we expanded it more so it could do full speed sound exactly like you, but I want to show you a sneak peek of how it started. So this is July 2021. This is many, many years ago. And here you go. Wow, dude. So he's not with the spring. He's just sitting there. Nope. Nope. And by the way, audio is on. There's just no audio in the video. Okay. I mean, maybe whisper flow would take you to 10 million or 100 million. And then this product, you should just keep working on this product, man. This product sounds pretty amazing. You should bring it back. It would be absolutely incredible. If you're in the office, sometimes I'll show you the actual hardware devices that we built because those were fully functional and we could use them with flow. And that's how the initial version of flow worked. Wow. Okay. But you probably had to like go on some of the PhDs and kind of like focus the company more on the voice tool, right? Almost every single one of them. We had to go from 40 people to about five people. Wow. Okay. I don't know, man. Like I feel like if you have this thing, do you try to sell to people or like why do you want to buy it? It just wasn't ready yet for people. It feels like one of those things where if you ask somebody like, hey, would you want to have something that can read your mind and just do things, right? Everyone's going to be like, yes, of course. Like do you want a flying car? Like yes, of course. But the thing is people actually don't unless there's a very strong use case, it's hard to get that individual to adopt because the fact is there are flying cars. They're like single person like Evie tolls that yeah, you can buy. But I don't think most people want flying cars bad enough as cool as they sound. And similarly, I don't think people wanted silent speech device in a world where they're like, no, I can write my emails. It's just fine. What am I going to need this for? And people are much more resistant to change their workflows. And this was a time where like a year ago, if you told somebody like, hey, I'm using voice to do everything. People wouldn't believe you because voice sucked. Now it makes a lot more sense. And now you look at it and you're like, hey, why does this not exist? And so I think that is we were ahead of of the time when we did build this. So that is likely a plan this in the next few years that's going to come out, which may or may not be us, which actually gets this out to market and has a real silence feature working for the average person. Yeah, just let me uh, let me cover the install it on my wife. So I know what she's thinking with all her knowing it. I tried this problem for you and me. It doesn't solve that. I tried. I tried. I tried. I knew nothing better after that than I did before. Got it. Okay, got it. All right. Let's leave our wives out of the interview. I'm going to get scolded for this man. What are you doing? Yeah, okay. Well, it's part of no, no, no. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, man, let's go back to whisper flow. This episode is brought to you by Boat. Boat recently launched a major upgrade to become the fastest tool for product teams to prototype new features. 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[email protected]/Peter-yang to get started. Now back to the episode. I think some people on Twitter are like, oh, you know, like whisper flows is like a rat-rapper on like some open AI stuff, right? Like, you know, this is just voice. Like what was big deal? But yeah, there's like a lot of stuff that went behind this. In fact, you have a team of, you have a team of like a hundred people now, right? Or something? It's like a pretty decent company. No, team is small, team is 25 people. Okay, okay. Yeah, there are a lot more about quality than quantity, but what we do have is some incredible machine learning PhDs who make whisper what it is. And I think right now, whisper is the best model in the world for voice across 80 different languages. If you benchmark it on latency and accuracy. So is this is the magic in the model or like the stuff around it? Or maybe give us like give me like a explain like five version of how whisper flow works. The magic comes from an insane attention to detail. The magic comes from the fact that we know that hey, if somebody's rambling a list, if you put it in bullets, people are going to be delighted. When you do that, if you also put a colon, it shows that like little attention to detail, people will like it. If they're talking to three different Brian's and whisper guard the right Brian's name every single time, no voice tool has ever done that. Most LLMs also fail at doing that. And that is going to make people feel special and there's a lot of these small problems and each of them are hard. Most of them don't have a machine learning solution. Most of them aren't like hey, we're just going to find you in this model and it's going to work. It doesn't. And that is I think the the hard part of it, which is there are dozens of companies that have built speech to text or what I would call transcription models. When it takes every word that you say and it tries to put it down word for word, which is great, but there is no company, apart from whisper, that has built a dictation model where it goes from what you speak to what you wanted to have written, which is not the exact word for word. It's different. And so I would say this is a completely different category of models and product that we're building right now that hasn't existed before. Yeah, with some of the voice tools I used before whisper flow, I always had to just copy the whole transcript into like chat chapter or something and be like, Hey, can you clean this up? Can you like make this like bullets and like clean up all the random words I said? Yeah. But I think whisper flow is the one where like I don't have to go through our process. I can just send. Yeah. So maybe just like a prompt or something in the background working or like just put me a lot more than that, right? So I wish it was a problem. That would make our life so much easier. Yeah. But no, there's a there's a lot more that goes in that because the the fact of the matter is the way you write is very different and the way I write. And even within that, the way you write your emails versus slack versus text is going to be there's going to have variations across it. And so what matters a lot is how do you make the user happy in every single scenario? Which is the the heart of what we're building is not just a voice dictation product, but it's actually the product that is able to learn context both short term and long term is able to build a model of the person so that it can make you happy every single time and the feeling you get is this product just gets me. And so that contextual engine is the hardest part of the technical stack to build and do well. And also one of the things that I think very few companies have been able to crack. Yeah, I wasn't aware of that, dude. Like so the model actually is learning about how I talk and like any can be better output over time. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Because yeah, because I wasn't going to ask you about like product modes and like, you know, read retention, right? Like, like, like right now it does a great job of just like changing my voice into text that's, you know, actually well-formatted and correct. But like, where do you plan to evolve its product moving forward? Like, you know, you know, on the one of the great things we've seen is our retention numbers are likely the highest of any AI product that's out there. Both in terms of paying users usage overall. And that all comes from the fact that the key metric that we have in our team is not ERR. The key thing that we track is how good of a job are we building? Are we doing to build a habit of voice for people? Because if we nail that, that gets you the word of mouth. That gets every single person to be posting on Twitter and talking about the product, which gets us our incredible growth rates. And so when I think about where we go next is my mental model for that is, say there's eight hours a day that you spend on your phone and computer. I want as much of that as possible to happen through whisper, which is why we started off with typing, right? Tiping is our biggest time sync. That's the part of the day that we first go in and capture and actually save the person three, like two hours a day just on typing alone. Then the next thing that we do is like a series of actions that are the next most frequent things that this person does. And so whisper in its limit starts to feel a lot more like Jarvis, where you speak and it writes for you. You speak and it does things for you. And finally, because it knows so much about you over every single application, it helps you proactively. Got it. Yeah, I'm just thinking of like, what else I spend a lot of time on? Like as meetings, copying and pacing stuff over over, you know, trying to, trying to read a bunch of documents, like, you know, just trying to get people to summarize. Yeah, you can probably help on all that stuff. Yeah. And it's not like, we're not going to build like, oh, booking an Uber into whisper. It's a very niche, small use case. Honestly, not that valuable. But hey, like, if that is something that Peter, you're spending 10 times in a day doing maybe an hour to day every day. I want to know what that is because I want to help take that awkward in your life and get that back to you and let whisper take out of that for you. Yeah, man. I mean, as a, as a PM is like, you know, it's like running Google Docs and like, yeah. Like, you know, doing all that stuff. Yeah. If you can take that away from me using my voice, that, that'll be, that'll be amazing. Yeah. I want to, I want to do more. I want to, I think as a, as a PM, maybe the best thing you do is take in a lot of information, absorb it, then have ideas on what you want to do next. And that is what likely or deep work time looks like. Then you're spending a lot of time, maybe putting the document in the right format. Maybe it's all the time you're spending like on Slack, doing back and forth with your team. Every time you open Slack, you are getting distracted by the other 50 hundred messages that you have. And so the question that inside whisper and in our user research calls, we're asking people is like, what are our time sinks? Where would you rather not spend time? What gives you joy? What does deep work look like for you? And how do we scale the deep work and reduce the groundwork? And whisper as essentially the core platform that's here there with you 24/7 actually has the opportunity to do that. You know, that is how AI is good for society, man. Like, can we not have all the groundwork? No one wants the door. No one wants to do. Yeah. Well, that's my core thing. I wanted to augment people, not replace them. And you augment people by taking over the garbage work they don't want to do. That's the biggest value I feel whenever I build any tool for me that does that. Got it. Yeah. You want people to just be in the flow state. I do. Yeah. That's what's called whisper flow. That is where the name flow comes from. Got it. Okay. All right, man. Well, how about building companies? Like, do you have any product or company principles when it comes to building a product? I guess one of them is like obsession about details. Yeah. You know, what have you learned on this journey? Yeah. Peter, that is so much. We can talk about it for the next couple of days nonstop. But I'll talk about a few different things that really help. Let's start about things with the product first. Right. The key thing that we realized is when we are building software, right, whisper flow as a software is supposed to build habits. So we actually don't look at other software companies for inspiration because most software companies are terrible at building habits. What I look at are games because there are games that people come back home to and play every single day that they get hooked on. That becomes a part of their personality. Games are the best habit builders of anything that's out there. And so I get a lot of my product philosophy from looking at how games are built. And I bet that's part of what you do at Roblox as well because you guys are building games. And so where that goes to is a lot of key insights there, which is one, take the example of product education. I think about our product as, okay, there's a game. There's a number of interactions. And these key components that we want to educate people, these are the rules of the game. Press and hold the function key. Text shows up. Here's the other things you can do. These are all the tools in your in your toolkit that you can use. And what games do really well, they don't jump you in and teach you all the controls at once. No, no, you slowly level up. As you get better at one thing, then it teaches you the next thing. And then you have time to master it. Then it teaches you the next thing. And if you look at Mario, Mario does it in a phenomenal way. So I'm much more inspired than Mario while building whisper a flow than any other voice or AI tool that is. Yeah, they don't have a lot of onboarding flows. It's just like playing the game is like the onboarding. That's kind of playing the game is the onboarding. And that is what makes it magical. Yeah, yeah. Okay, playing the game and then what else give me give me like a few few more. Yeah. Another one I would say is again, when I think about brand building, right, most startups build a brand that is just their product. They're like, okay, this company does this one job great. But there are some companies whose brand transcends the products and it essentially becomes a core identity. Take the example of Nike, right? Nike sells a commodity. And the thing they do is in all of their ads, they celebrate athletes. And so when you think of Nike, when you go in a Nike store, you're not thinking about shoes. You're thinking about your dreams and aspirations. And that's what you associate the brand with. And so again, when we think about the whisper brand or what job the marketing team is doing, I want to look at Nike. I want to look at Gucci and Chanel and LV. And I want to see what they're doing to create this brand that everybody has spars to get to. Got it. I feel like a lot of it's like maybe tying the brand to the emotion. Yeah. Or like, you know, Nike is kind of like, you know, overcoming adversity, you know, just just do it kind of thing. And yeah, maybe maybe you guys is like, yeah, maybe maybe it goes back to like the flow state versus like the grunt grunt for stuff. Yeah. And all this like, what is the feeling? Like, like, when you heard me say, like, like, Peter, I want you to give you back hours of deep work in your day. The feeling you got is the feeling I want people to get when they when they think of whisper. Got it. Got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. A couple on the company building side, is it just about keeping the company as small as much as possible? Or was that coming? Yeah. Actually, no, I look at a different metric. The thing I look at is output per employee, right? So what what happens is when you're a five person company or a startup, you're moving really fast. Then when you get to 25 people, you aren't five times as fast. Most companies are maybe twice as fast as 25 people. And then you have this like sub linear curve, 1000 person companies and 40 times as effective as a 25 person company and so on. So the thing I care about is how do I keep the output for employee metric as high as possible? Because if we can make a 25 person company five times as effective as a five person company, you're winning because then you can scale that. And there's a couple of ways to do that. It's like, first, like, we said it because the problem was about a couple of months ago, we were in the state where we were just twice as effective when you were five people and that was driving me nuts. And so we restructured how we were building a company running everything, went down to a couple of things. Number one is communication overhead. When your team starts to get bigger and bigger, meetings start to have more people because apparently more opinions make things better, which is absolute lie. It makes it a little better, but what you're losing is all the work that they could be doing in that time. Because when you ask somebody for a five minute opinion on something, they're then thinking about that for another hour every day. And that is waste of productivity. So okay, make communication loops a lot, lots more. Number two is decision-making. A lot of people start to have a lot of opinions on things, which is, you know, great, you care about the product, you care about the company, but also that slows down decision-making. I want decisions to be made like this. And so what we do instead is for every single thing that we're doing that is one very clear decision maker. Everybody else's opinion is an opinion. They can take that or not. They don't need anybody else's sign off. And this also means we need to hire people who I can trust to make decisions and not even have to loop me in. But what that does is we in our 25% company right now are running about 20 different projects in parallel, each with independent decision makers, usually one to two people who are working on any given thing at a time. And we have pretty much up our velocity by 2 to 2.5x over the last couple of months by starting to put these things in practice. And you measure output in terms of like, yeah, like number of features shipped or like, you know, kind of like that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Number of features shipped, number of experiments around, number of deals closed, just all of that. Like with every team it differs what I care about. Yeah. But you just feel it in the office. Yeah, I think that's really important, man. Like I think there's a difference between getting a lot of people's opinion on stuff, which you probably should do just to like get diverse opinions versus a lot of people trying to make a decision on stuff. Like if any decision you make requires like 10 check boxes, then you're screwed screwed. Yep. You know. So in part, he was like really important. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. What about using AI in the office? Like I imagine everyone has a microphone. Everybody actually has a microphone. Yeah. Yeah. We have these goose neck mics that like come up like this and people are using AI with that all day because we are in an open office situation. Okay. I would say at this point, it's funny. I don't even think of like, are you using AI tools or not? It's more of a question of like, it's it's a given that everybody's using it. It's again and the thing that the team shares among each other is what are the best ways they found to use it? For example, I just got our marketing team onto Claude code. Why? Because I can get them to have the code based on their computer. Claude code running that. And then they can ask themselves what a feature does or if they want a new feature built to be marketed, they can ask Claude code how hard is it going to be and so on. And it has access to the code basic and answers so many of their questions about the product that gives them a lot more power. Our product team, for example, whenever they want to talk about a new feature, it's not just a PRD. The PRD is joined with a lovable prototype that they can just like show like this is what I'm talking about. And then the engineering team knows exactly what to build. And then, for example, like whenever we're kind of doing a brainstorming session, people have to show up to the meeting with having done the basic chat GPT work beforehand. So that, okay, with the core thing set up on the way, now the hard thing that we have to do is all of these 20 ideas that chat GPT said could be good. What are the three that we're doing? And so we would spend the meeting talking about that. Then it's having as a brainstorming meeting because the coming up with ideas part at chat GPT does well actually making decisions based on what you know about your company and business that you can do a lot better. Yeah. Yeah, because it's way faster to just console AI and make your, just just like use AI to make your thing better before you actually go meet a human like that. That's kind of the idea. Yes, that is now like an onset expectation within the company. You just have to do that. Got it. Makes sense. And let me ask you like just two more questions, man. So yeah, I feel like there's like a lot of there's like a lot of hype man in the AI space. And yeah, there's a lot of companies talking about AR and agents and all this stuff. And I feel like a lot of this stuff is kind of bullshit, man. I don't know. Do you think we're at a point where you have a bunch of AI agents running all the place doing everything for you? Maybe encoding. That's true. But like, what do you think? Yeah, I think agents is honestly the dumbest term I've heard. We're probably going to get a lot of shit for it, but I cannot take anybody seriously when they start using the word agents. No, but I do think that is the end goal. But I think a lot of people in the industry are approaching agents wrong. You're thinking of it as more so building capability. Like, hey, we built a thing that can actually connect to your, your slack and you're this thing and do things for you. Like, no, that is that is step zero. That is not even something to be proud of right now. The thing you're going to be proud of is, is there one task that your agent can do reliably? Just give me one thing. One thing that you can do that I can blindly trust you with. And that is the thing to be proud of because that is a bar that most almost I rarely have seen any product meet that bar. And so that is I think what the most successful companies in the space are going to do. Because most AI agents are at the level of mediocre interns at this point. Yeah. G building reliable agents is way harder than that. It needs a really good understanding of the problem you're solving, not trying to boil the ocean. There's a number of startups that I advise on this. And I think once people have the right essentially loss function that they're optimizing for, they have the right problem and like framing of it. It's solvable. All problems are solvable. But generally with the AI space, the other question that you were asking, is it hyped up with the ARR numbers and all? Yeah. The thing I really want to see with the companies is what is retention look like? Because right now in the world, there's a lot of AI tourists. Yeah, they just try something and turn. Yeah. They just try something. They may even pay you money. But two months later, you're not having that user. So what happens is like, yes, companies get to 100 million of ARR very quickly. But then the problem is of the 100 million they have today, they're just going to have 60 million left the next month. So they have to spend all the marketing dollars to recover the loss, the the churn revenue back and then grow on top of it. That I think is the is the big problem to solve. There's another problem where like some of these companies are not unique and economic are profitable, especially the wipe coating tools. That I think overall, I'm less worried about because model costs, all of that is going to go down over time. They'll do optimization. So that is a that is less existential of a problem as retention. I would say is. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's like product building 101, right? You need to have good retention. Yep. A lot of the investors, these are just like, oh, like how fast can you grow AR? Like, I don't know what's going on. They don't care about retention. It's just like grow AR. They are, they are. And we've been in an interesting position where ARR has been doing well. It's growing 50% month over a month, can't complain. But I in my last board meeting with our investors, I told them we are no longer having ARRs in North Star metric. They're going to track it. We're going to look at it. But that is not the thing that every person in the company is going to know back of hand. The thing that we are going to be the best at is we're going to track how our habit building looks like, which is all the numbers around retention, engaged users, not just if somebody signs in up, signs up or not, and all of that. Because I think once you have that, then your product starts to look a lot more like Spotify and Duel Lingo. Yeah. And those are the companies when I think about habit building, I would rather model whisper off of. Yeah, even just having that goal, man, probably would differentiate you against a lot of other AI companies. Because now your people focus on the right thing. I think so. I think this is the right thing to be focused on. Got it. And the revenue is going to come once you start adding more value to people. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Cool. All right, man. So let's talk about how can people following your footsteps? I was looking into your background. You did competitive coding before. You even went to the point of stealing your mom's laptop to code at night. Where does this motivation come from? How can people have the same drive, man? How can people make something of their life? I don't think fashion just just comes. I think the key thing that always drove me was curiosity. I wanted to, I saw somebody with an app and I was like, I want to build that. I wonder how you build an app. And then I go went and taught myself. And then the more I did it, one, the more I was enjoying it and do the better I was at it. And often competency proceeds passion. And so once you just see yourself killing it at something, you just want to do that again and again. That's what it was for me. That's what it was like, I would rather not sleep and code because one, I can build stuff out of thin air. And it's magical. And I can also make money off of it, which was great as a child, right? But two was like, it essentially became my craft. It's what I dreamt of. It's what I did day in day out. It's what I talked about. It's what obsessed over. And you know, it's like nothing. Everybody should be a founder. Everybody should be a software engineer. But I think everybody should have something that you're madly, deeply obsessed about. That you want to devote your life to that is bigger than yourself. Because I think it just generally makes it so much more worthwhile. So even though you were not very good at it in the beginning, you just kind of like wanted to get better at it. Is that kind of, yeah. That's just the things. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was a shit programmer as a nine year old. But that year later, I was less shit. Got it. Got it. Yeah. And I feel like having that self drive to learn whatever the hell you're interested in is actually really important, man. Like especially in the US, dude, because the education system here is not great. And I'm like, I'm trying to teach my kids to actually just like learn whatever the hell they want to learn about. Like don't talk about your teacher. Yeah. No, loving to learn, I think like, when I have kids, that's the one thing I want them to have. Yeah. Just give them all the AI tools and let them go explore whatever the hell. So, um, where can people find where it's preferable? And we can find you. So you can find whisper flow at our website, which is WISPR FLOW.AI. And I will follow the website for people to see. You can get started with the product on Mac, Windows, and iPhone. And if you have any questions or more, feel free to just reach out. I'm available on Twitter and LinkedIn. But I'm really excited for a lot more people to switch over from their keyboards. So I think there's a whole world out there for people to experience. Awesome, man. Yeah. We had such a great chat. I lost track of time. So, yeah. That's good. Yeah. Me too. Good. This is fun. All right, dude. Thanks for your time.
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