From the VA Prescription to the Street | Travis Gribble & Brandon Spangler | Ep. 465

all right what do you guys want to talk about today what don't we want to talk about the first progression man progression yeah regression or progression progression it's good to hear that it's been like that we should introduce the gimp yeah we should go ahead all right here we go it's trust me it will be better if you do it yourself you know me well enough as you give me the creative reins you're not gonna like the introduction you get fair enough go ahead uh brandon spangler um i run a uh company called warriors mindset i see first responders and combat vets uh former marine myself um yeah i'm here in kalispell and been working with trav on a lot of his stuff he's been doing over the years and when trav first started i was one of the first people to talk with him and then just kind of progressed from there and i've just been working with him ever since how'd you get into that line of work um what'd you do in the marine corps by the way i was an aviation mechanic in the marine corps okay so nothing associated with what you do now uh no no no no not in the least amount um pretty crazy childhood a lot of a lot of chaos in childhood went in the marine corps because that's what marines do right um and my best friend died there a couple of my buddies died there it really kind of tweaked my brain i didn't realize it um in the marine corps okay how'd they die um one guy uh one guy got shot um one of my other buddies died in a car wreck um and it was just fucking boom all of a sudden i just remember being like whoa was the shooting combat related or we're talking stateside okay i mean some where some of the marine corps bases are i could see it going both ways but yeah just want yeah um and then i did a couple years of executive prect uh executive protection stuff in uh phoenix um had my kiddos over there i have two older kiddos there at that time i was really struggling when i was in the marine corps um i broke my c5 like the the little wings on the side of your your vertebrae broke my c5 a lot of pain right there crushed my l45 um tons of pain excuse me tons of pain um and got hooked on painkillers a lot of times and then i was like oh my god i'm gonna die um and then i was like oh my god i'm gonna die um and then i was like oh my god i'm gonna die for a while um went down that road for probably eight or ten years um rails sorry rails fell off pretty hard how did that start the va was like hey are you in some pain here you go and i had no limiter for that myself um did it start off you were taking them just for the pain itself how did it how does it escalate beyond that um so for me like when it first started um it was just enough pain but what i also realized was that there was a psychological relief like oh the pain in the body is dissipated but like my brain finally felt like free and we're talking about oxycodone oxycodone that stuff yeah yeah pretty hard stuff um and then it just went i just basically just rode that train till the wheels fell off um did you do you increase your dosage over time because your body develops resistance to it and then that turns into street drugs you know because they uh it was just never enough on that piece did you go down that path the street drug path what was the day like where you decided or perhaps decided is not the appropriate word to use there but where you made the decision to go from the safe doctor prescribed drug to the unsafe non-doctor prescribed street drug um yeah that's an interesting one i've never been asked that um i remember that i was uh detoxing off of that and if you ever detox off of painkillers fucking terrible um and then i there was just a buddy was like hey man like this is what i do when i don't have them and i was like cool let's go um it was it was just getting out of that detox state because that like that detox is absolutely mind-bending i'm assuming it was heroin yep yep was that an internal struggle for you at all to make that jump between the we'll call the medicinal or pharmacy world to the street world yep yeah that was a big jump too because even then when i was like taking the pills for the va that's like all right it's just still part of my military service right like i'm still kind of like i'm on that that piece where i'm still doing like the okay thing but it was like a foundational jump for me for sure um and i feel like when that happened then i was just like all right cool like none of this like all the stoppers are off um do they feel the same i don't have i've taken identical really couldn't tell it if he was like in a pill that you didn't know what it was wouldn't know the difference how were you how do you take care what i've always associated with the needle yeah i so i'm deathly afraid needle so a terrible drug addict um but uh you can smoke it and then snorting it yeah that sounds like way healthier options i suppose yeah yeah we're gonna use that that's a joke by the way sarcasm okay man how many years on that train i was about eight years on that um no the jump after the jump from prescribed to street uh that happened pretty quick after the jump from prescribed to street that was probably two three years on that so probably solid six or seven what was life like during that time are you functional are you just taking again i had no experience so i'm just curious from the outside what people have said you were functioning well did you have a professional life what was going on yep so um the ones closest to me could tell there was something going on but i tried to really really hide it um but it's hard to hide heroin right or any kind of like oxycontin stuff um always kept the job um working like various things it was kind of like i worked at like a batteries plus for a long time just like making batteries um what else i ranched for a long time which that was a really weird one i grew up on a ranch that was like my next like progression um i could always like keep it together enough go to work but then like as soon as i was off work like just like rails were off again man how did you manage parenting kids were you in a relationship at the time yeah i was in a relationship at the time um what is in your throat i don't know drink some of that water or keep doing what you're doing parent parenting was definitely difficult i didn't have very good um so i would have been 28 at the time my first kiddo and then 30 the next one didn't have very good parents growing up so i didn't have a good foundation of like what am i supposed to be doing except for like providing for providing for the kiddos kind of being there but like a lot of the um short temper not very present with my kiddos like never hit them or anything like that like i've never touched my kiddos but um it was always just very much like just the bare minimum of what i thought a dad was supposed to be like food clothes making sure we got the rent right that kind of stuff but very much checked out for my kiddos and i think my kiddos were hmm must have been one in three when i finally got clean and that would have been in 2013 but that transition was really really tough like i at one point and this should terrify everybody um i was also working at an airport because i was an amp mechanic um always sober at my job right but still like going home and like living that second life who on the record uh uh you've been around in your old occupation at explore than myself they might say they're sober but their capacity and tolerance would blast through any charts that you're probably testing for 100 so i don't know i mean god i guess that's interesting if they're functional with that higher capacity because they've taken so much and they have that tolerance are they actually i don't know how that works in the street there's definitely a fog and a haze that's happening yeah i think one of the saving grace is important when you're working on your planes yeah good enough is usually good enough the one saving grace though is that one of the uh one of the rules we had is that if you fixed it then you flew it right or you flew in it one of the two yeah so yeah not always a hundred percent but here's a heads up for you from somebody who flies it's not always the first flight where there's the issue buddy sometimes i thought about that yeah sometimes it is the statistical likelihood of aircraft crashing after maintenance i don't have it in front of me but this is anecdotal talking to the pilots it seems to be and of course that doesn't mean the mechanic needs to do so it just means they're in there moving stuff and humans are humans but it can take a little bit for a bolt to start working its way out so it's not always on the first flight because you can go bang a lap around the pattern yeah you're good buddy well and then you go on a two-hour cross-country and that one bolt that was working its way off finally ejects so i like how you you were self-justifying though for sure flights immediately following aircraft maintenance carry a statistically elevated risk of incidents and and this is this is just human beings i do such a thorough pre and post flight yeah and even with the best mechanics in the world i mean i make a tremendous amount of mistakes and i try to remind myself that when you have thousands of parts that are trying to shake themselves to pieces the whole time how about the mom of your kids were you guys married at the time nope weren't married uh we were together a total of five years um and again for the most part kind of kept that hit from her the last couple years like you know like it only goes downhill right at some point she was like you gotta do something man today's episode is brought to you by montana knife company i was just there yesterday but full disclosure, I was there very briefly. 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My suggestion, buy something small on the website, a sticker, a t-shirt, whatever it would be. Store your payment information there because literally in the time it takes for you to get your wallet out, it'll apply it in there. Personally, items will get taken out of your cart by people that have it stored. So MontanaKnifeCompany.com. They do two releases per week. You can get SMS alerts, email alerts, all of those things. MontanaKnifeCompany.com. Back to the show. So I left, I didn't actually do something except for just leave. And that's when I started working at that airport. And at the time I had a house, had a couple of cars. I was dating somebody from the outside in, like, you know, you're doing pretty good, man. You're crushing it. Right. But it was just that day in and day out of like, you know, coming home and just like, like life was really, really bad. Basically all the time. Would you look forward to that all day long? Um, yes. And no, yes. And that wasn't like having to try to carry the burden responsibilities of like mechanicing and working. Cause that's his own set of things. Um, cause growing up, I have like, I have a very strong work ethic. Um, so I was always like trying to do the best version of what I could. Um, but then getting home, it was nice to be away from that piece. However, um, then you're kind of like back in the cycle of like, all right, got to get high. I got to like, I got to like cool this thing down a little bit. How'd you break that cycle? Um, so eventually I had a, a really cool guy. The girl that I was dating, her dad was actually one of those people. It was like a really great dad. Um, he saw what was happening. She saw what was happening. And he came to me one day. He was like, Hey man, like I really care for you. I want you to get better. You're not getting better here. And you're not going to do this within our family, but I will, he was a Navy vet. Um, he's like, I will find as many places as possible that will take you for an inpatient stay. When that happens, you can go there, but like, you got to get your shit and get out. At the time I was like, that's fucked up. But looking back on it now, and I've called him several times. I'm like, bro, you saved my life. A hundred percent. Um, he called around and I ended up landing in Walla Walla, Washington. Um, they had an inpatient there. And so I went there and I was probably homeless for a month and a half before I got to bed. Um, so I just was in my truck in the mountains, just camping, having a lot of thoughts of like, all right, like either I'm going to go all in on this or like, I'm going to check out. Were you still using it? Nope. Nope. I, so you had already trans, did you go cold Turkey? Oh, I tried it three times. The third time it stuck. And like the best I can explain is like, it's like having your bones on fire for how long? Um, anywhere between three to seven days, just all day, every day, just, um, so I drove up, I love the mountains, grew up in the mountains. Um, so once I knew I was going to that place, but I didn't have a bed day yet. I just drove to somewhere outside of Walla Walla. Some mountains back up there and the blues mountains. And I just found a little spot, pulled off with my truck and slept in my truck, man. And I was there for a month and a half and I drive into town every day and got a bed day yet. Nope. Drive back up there, man. Hit the little soup kitchen, shit like that. Um, just get some food. And so at that point I decided like, all right, I'm going to give this all. I don't, I didn't even know what a social worker was, what therapy really was, excuse me. But all I knew was that like, at some point I've either got to like shit or get off the pot. Um, for me, like that was that time. And so got myself as clean and sober as I could and just kind of waited out. And eventually they gave me a bed date. And I was, when I went in, dude, I was all in. And I think about this now, it's like, I made that decision. Like, all right, I have made the decision. I don't know what this outcome is going to be, but like, I have made the decision. I'm going to check, I'm going to check all the boxes. I'm going to talk to all the people. I'm going to listen. I'm going to do the homework. Like if you tell me to do something in this environment, if I think it's fucking ridiculous, I'm going to do it. Um, turns out it works. Did you have people that were there with you who had waited until the day they got their bed to stop using? Oh, there was people that are currently high. Okay. Yeah. I feel like you had at least an advantage and ability to work on that stuff because you had skipped that three to seven days or not. You rephrase that you hadn't skipped the three to seven days. You had experienced that previously. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. That would be tough checking into one of those. That'd be a rough first week. Uh, it was really tough. Uh, I mean, just the thought process. I was like, all right, if I go through an inpatient program, like everybody's going to know that I've went through one and I wanted to stay in the aviation industry because that was the only skillset that I had besides ranching. And I'm good with that. Um, I was like, well, I can't really like go and do my AMP license. Cause they're going to ask you, have you ever been to a treatment facility? Like they, they have all that piece. And I was like, man, I don't want to do that. So for me, I actually had to decide like, all right, I'm no longer going to be in aviation. Like that's a dead kill for me. Like I just, I had no idea what I was going to do. Like my only plan was like, get sober and get me right. Period. Fucking figured out after that. How long was the treatment plan? Um, 30 days. I stayed another couple of weeks on top of that. Um, and that to answer your question, that's how I ended up getting into this profession. Um, I had a really cool therapist at the time, a social worker. Um, we'd, he'd been seeing me for about two, three weeks. We just got on the conversation one day during one of our sessions. Like, who are you? Like, what are you actually doing? I know I come and talk to you every day, but like, what do you do? He's like, oh, I'm a social worker. All right. What does that really mean? I mean, he basically went through like, oh, this is what it looks like. This is like what the schooling looks like. I just made up my mind. I'm like, like that resonated with me for whatever reason. Um, I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. Cause I knew how much he was helping me. And I was like, I think I can do that. I feel like there's a long path though to really realizing that and then becoming an actual, are you a counselor or a therapist? I'm a therapist lessons clinical social worker. How long does that take? Well, so I started from scratch. So I ended up getting my associates, my bachelor's and then my master's. Um, but I also did it in like record time. Cause I didn't have a job at the time. Well, I had a kind of a part-time job working at the vet center. Um, but I was taking 21 to 24 credits at a time because addicts, right. Go all in. Um, and that actually didn't work. I don't know if that's a lot or a little, I've never been to college. So I think, I think a full load is like 12. So I was doing between 21 and 24, like every quarter. So it probably took me three and a half years total, which was needed because at that time I was learning about like the brain, the body, social structures, all my own like stuff. But I was like, as I was going through that, I was doing my own therapy, but I was connecting dots while I was in school. It was like the best version to like, uh, compliment my therapy. I probably could ever had. Cause like I had all these experiences and I'm learning about it. And then I'm like, Oh, that's where that fits into my life. That's where that fits in. I had all these aha moments like in school, like, Oh, when this happens, like, this is how people will react. I'm like, check did that. Um, so for me, like everything just caught on right away, like in high school, solid C, maybe, maybe a B student. There was a lot of PE. Um, but when I got through college, I straight A's all the way through college. Cause it just resonated. Like I knew what I wanted to do and it just made sense. Do you ever really truly kick an addiction? Do you ever have any desires for that type of stuff again? It's a good question. So for a long time, I really tried to like quash my addictive behavior. And for what I've realized for myself is that I just had, I just need to move it. It's a fucking superpower, but you gotta be able to move it and modulate it. So for me, is that the safest way to describe it then as addictive behavior or is it, you have the ability to hyper, you know what I mean? Hyper-focus on. Yeah. Like an ADD versus addiction. Those terms though, I feel are used very pejoratively. Agreed. Is there a positive way to describe the ability to hyper-focus for short or long periods of time other than addiction? Because if you say it, you and I are both addicted to jujitsu. People don't, when you say that, they say, okay, I know what jujitsu is, but addiction is a bad word. Right. And I don't think that the, the passion I have for it is bad at all. It's man, it's not an addiction. I just really, really enjoy it. Yep. Great question. I don't know. What would I, an acceptable like positive connotation would be for that. super super duper hyper focus super duper that's a good name a super duper hyper focus kind of guy so that's what I did for myself I just decided to like all right like instead of it being drugs alcohol whatever physical fitness and then also with my own mental health I go down the rabbit hole with my mental health quite a lot and I think that kind of helps me like keep the keep the bucket clean for my own mental health. And then obviously physically, like I do a bunch of CrossFit and doing Jitsu five, six days a week. That's not true. I see you twice a week. No, that's because you're only going twice a week. Some of us have busy work schedules. I used to go about eight times a week. It's just not sustainable. Fair. Yeah. You going up to a whitefish as well? No, I'm doing Boone's classes at Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I thought your technique would have been better given that training and volume, but you and me both. I'm joking. I am joking. People, for people who don't know, we've trained with each other for quite a few years. So, okay. All right. Trav, introduce yourself. So this can be a standalone. I guess. Yeah. Travis. Yeah. You've been on a couple of times before, so we can point people back at that, but if people want to get a brief snapshot and then we can talk. Yeah. Travis Gribble did 24 years in law enforcement, retired out of Mesa PD in 2022. 16 years of those were spent with SWAT, 10 years full-time. And yeah, since went through my struggles. In fact, I fucking love that you started off telling all your shit because usually when we're together, I'm the one telling how fucked up I was. I'm like, this is fucking great to hear Brandon talk about it. But yeah, I went through struggles of mental health while I was on the job, but never addressed it because obviously our culture. And when I got out, it just became a passion. You were one of the first ones to give me an opportunity to share my story. Yeah. Years ago. And it just snowballed from there, man. I've been on a, just pursuing that ever since. And a lot of changes have happened over the last two years, some work that I'm doing. And I guess taking a different mindset. Cause if you remember the first time I was on, it was kind of this attitude of slam my fist on the desk of PTSD. We have PTSD and I was focused on that. And I came out of that. Honestly, it's a bunch of bullshit. I used to say it's okay to not be okay, but now it's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay that way. Yep. You gotta get after your shit, you know? And, and I think based on our systems that we have in place and how PTSD is addressed, people just kind of get pulled into there and then they get stuck under that diagnosis. And a really cool thing. I mean, man, you've had, like you said, you've had me on a couple of times, but another big point. From your podcast was Emily and I were driving from Montana to head air back to Arizona. Cause that's where my kids still were. And you had Dr. Chris free on, it was operator syndrome. And that dude's awesome. Yeah. And I was, so I was listening to it and honestly, we were driving home. I was a little bit pissed or driving to my, or to Arizona. So I was like, what the fuck is this? Like, are they saying that PTSD isn't a thing or trying to understand it all? And that was kind of the turning point. And just so happened that about a couple of months after that, I went through a program. By that was put on by the Boulder Crest Foundation and it focuses on post-traumatic growth rather than PTSD. And it just not the, anything that we give or the organization gives is earth shattering new news. No different than you talk about in your book. You're just kind of repeating some of the stuff that's been out there, right? Passed down. Yeah. The stuff I wrote about in the book, I would be shocked if they weren't having conversations like that when we were still fighting other humans with sticks. Right. Exactly. I don't know if they would have the vocabulary and not that mine is great, but they still might've been just like, and you get the point across, but it's, yeah, it was passed down to me. I just feel obligated to pass it down to others. Yeah. And I think it's because, you know, and even back then I was pissed at administrations, I was pissed at leadership, but you know what? That shit's not going to go away. I mean, we're going to have people in leadership positions that don't do the right thing, that don't take care of the people the way they should be. At the end of the day, the personal responsibility is ours. Like we got to take care of ourselves because the people that we love, our families, our kids, they deserve that. You know, we can all bitch about something, but we got to get after it and take care of ourself. And I've heard you say numerous times, no different like Brandon's doing and kind of paving the way with culturally competent therapists. There are people that want to help you. You just have to make the decision to ask for it. And that's, that's yeah. One thing that, um, is incredibly important, but yeah, I just been on this journey, man. And it's been, honestly, I'm just super blessed to be here. And yeah, Brandon and I got hooked up about the time, the first time I was on this podcast with you. And it was when we were discovering culturally competent therapist and, you know, he started doing his thing. You guys have used that where you've used the term twice. What does that mean? Yeah. So there, I mean, if you Googled right now, how many therapists would be in Kalispell? Probably quite a few. Michael. If I don't know. Yeah. How many, but you know, you can go down that list and you don't know what they're experienced. What's their background. Now you just heard Brandon talk about some serious shit he's been through and 75 to a hundred. There you go. So how do you muddle through all that and decide who is someone that can understand what a first responder or veteran has been through? Brandon's been in that world. He's walked in our shoes and he's been through his own trials and tribulations of things that he, you know, not taking care of himself and on and on. He has a much better capacity to understand. I mean, I've heard horror stories of just pick a therapist out of one of those 75 to a hundred and they hear some of the shit that you did as a, in the military or first responder. And they're like in tears because they're like, holy shit. Like, what is this? Right. That's okay though. To me, that means you go find somebody else. Yeah, exactly. What I don't want to do is load up an excuse for people, whether it be a passive one or one they're actively thinking about, because I hear this all the time. Oh, I can't talk to that person because they've never experienced it. Okay. I'm not saying first off of everybody in this room, I'm not a therapist. So, you know, I have some wild opinions about things that I don't know anything about, but I'm not so sure that they have to have experienced it to be able to help. They may not be the end solution, but I would rather have you talk with somebody who maybe is overwhelmed and is in tears because of your experiences. I could actually see somebody talking about something for the first time with somebody and seeing it put a therapist into tears and actually having the realization. Oh, maybe I'm not crazy for feeling this way. Maybe this is more impactful than I thought. And again, I'm not saying that that's the gold standard is you should attempt to put your therapist into tears. However, comma, that would be an interesting exercise and probably how I would approach therapy. I hear that one from people. Well, what are they going to know about what I've experienced? And I think the answer is nothing depending on the person, but they know how to help people deal with trauma. And in my experience, working with counselors and therapists, the first fit or the first match isn't, isn't always the best. I mean, not all relationships of any kind will work and you have to put work into it and keep going. Yeah. But in that list, say you had 75 to a hundred and Brandon wasn't up here or what do you guys call it? Culturally competent, competent counselors and therapists. Don't use that as firepower to say, well, then I'm not going to talk to anybody. People all the time, you know, unfortunately you'll go to one. Maybe it isn't a good fit relationships. It could be anything, even with a culturally competent therapist, maybe Brandon and I don't, you know, we're not cohesive in our relationship. Don't stop. That's the thing. Cause we do use that as an excuse. Like, well, I guess, and I went through that for a period of time. I had a really shitty one. I'm like, yeah, I'm not going back. Thankfully. You know, I got to a point where like, I have to, and I found someone that worked. So, but yeah that's where we're at, man. Just you know, coming to a new, place in life and an understanding of that. We don't have to live under this diagnosis of PTSD. You know, I remember when I was diagnosed with that and, you know, I hate this fucking phrase now, the new normal, like this is going to be your new thing of, well, you're going to the airport. You know, you're not, you know, that, that freaks you out. You've got to take some medication prior to going and you start buying into it and you're thinking, yeah, I guess I I'm, I'm really fucked up by crowds. Like this doesn't work for me, but we don't need to be stuck in that corner, man. Like you can work through it. You can gain new perspective. And I mean, I know you remember from the time I was so adamant about sharing my story and share the things I did, which is incredibly important to disclose some of those things and get some of this shit off your chest. But I don't, I don't focus on the details anymore. The incident so much as I do gaining an understanding of what happened because I went through this. This is why I probably reacted that way. Once I can gain this new perspective, now I can start moving forward. Perspective is for the past. If we stay stuck in the past, I know Brandon sees us a lot. You stay, well, I had this incident or I had this childhood, you know, and that's another big thing. The childhood thing is coming up big for our first responders and veterans. Like it is overwhelming how many people walk into these professions with bringing in just a bunch of shit already from, you know, growing up. It actually makes sense to me. I've started having a lot of conversations like that and I've talked about it quite a bit recently when it comes up the, because the metric that people use in, and probably the first responder, world too, is the suicides. And the veteran statistics are insane, but the focus seems to be entry of service to exit of service. They bracket it there. And it was accidental that I started talking with a close friend of mine and he had shared with me what he had gone through growing up. And then I knew of his military experience and I, and I just realized that he brought a full fee bag of stuff with him before being issued several more in filling those up along the way. And by, and it makes sense if you came from, if you were abused when you were younger and people can fill in what that definition means to them. But if you were on the receiving end of abuse, whether it be bullying at, when you were young, being exposed to violence around. Your parents, what better job to have than somebody who can step into those shoes and stop that from happening. But if you don't deal with that underlying trauma, we'll call it that, or sea bag full of things that you bring with you. And then you have a career that's steeped in that as well too. And it, and it terminates in you in this place where you're questioning whether or not you want to check out or not to use the term that you used. I don't think. I don't think you can place that specifically on your uniformed service time. I actually think it's a disservice to do that. Now that I have talked a lot more with my, the friends that I served with, we have way deeper conversations now, oftentimes than when we were in and I'll, cause I never sat down in my cage and be like, did your mom and dad love you? What was Christmas like in your house? I mean, we could have a hundred percent done those things, but we just, I don't know why we didn't. I don't have an answer for that. But now Oh my God. And I have no data to support it other than my anecdotal experience. I'm going to say more than half the people that pursue that career path, bring a lot of stuff with them. And it makes sense to me why. It also makes sense why it has such a powerful tail, how that can swing once you lose that identity and probably purpose as well too. The post, the post-traumatic stress conversation is a difficult one. Like Dr. Free, when he was talking about an operator system or a operator syndrome. Thank you. I think he was just describing the complexity of what it is. He's not saying the post-traumatic stress isn't real. And I still don't like the blanket term disorder. And you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but in talking to medical professionals, a disorder is when your body is not responding appropriately to what it's being faced with. So if you were to get sick and not get a fever, that would be a disorder. But trauma, if the human body or humanity was not able to deal with trauma, we wouldn't be sitting here around this table because the evolutionary nature of ours, it would have ended the first time a saber-toothed tiger ripped somebody away from a campfire because nobody would have been able to get past that. And I think the data shows really well that about 90% of people within a 12 to 16 month time period should be able to work through their trauma. Yep. That is not a disorder. That is your body working appropriately. Now, the 10% of people that have a difficult time or are unable to do so, that's actually the disorder. And I don't mean that negatively. It just means that your brain is disordered in the way that it's processing it. But that term, if you apply it to everybody, is like painting with a broom and become, you know, the broader you are with your description, the less accurate it is. And it encapsulates everybody. And it's not, that's not what it is. I agree with you. There's post-traumatic growth. I feel like I'm a better person because of the traumatic experiences in my life. It, and it's all of those things, but you slap that D on the end of it. And it, I don't know why everybody, not everybody, but so many people are so insistent on doing that because I think it does a disservice to all of the nuance that is underneath that umbrella. You shouldn't, it is a disorder if you are unable to get past those things. And that's not to say you're going to be the same person that you were before, Or you could have a new normal, whatever that may be. But that doesn't also mean that it has to be – your life has to be worse. Your new normal could be awesome. Right. It could be way better. You could take it and do what you're doing right now and help other people on that journey and path through there. Yeah. Unless they've constantly been told you're broken. That's what I dislike about it so much. That's the signal that's coming out, right? It's like I'll have guys that I'm talking to. It's like, oh, my PTSD flared up again. Fuck. And I will always correct people when they say that. Like that's a behavior that you're doing. Like it's not your PTSD, whatever mythical thing that is. Not being comfortable in crowds. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not comfortable in crowds. I wasn't comfortable in crowds when I was a kid. Right. Because crowds are super dangerous. They're chaotic by nature. They are. And, you know – But then it gets attached to your PTSD. You're like, well, gosh damn, maybe I am fucked up. I don't like being in crowds. You're right. Or maybe you're just paying attention. You have a little bit of an understanding of humanity. And you know that crowds can be manipulated and moved in directions. And people can get crushed to death at concerts. Mm-hmm. And – And bad actors can hide inside of crowds of good actors. Mm-hmm. But also at the same time, take a breath. Yeah. And my understanding of it now is so much – and you can understand this from your training – the things that we were trained to do in our professions, and we were doing a good job, you're getting a pat on the back. If you think that that training and how you perceive things and how you look at yourself, others in the world, is going to just be okay when you go back to your family life, that is not going to work. Some of it never beats you. Yeah. To this day, first thing I do is look at people's hands. Yeah. Because that was the number one threat indicator in the training environments, in the kill houses specifically, but also it is when you are encountering unknown people, the fastest way to determine, at least externally, because you can't read their mind, I'm working on that power, have them cheaply yet, of whether or not they have something in their hand that might be considered a threat. Yeah. But you can temper that. It's okay. I like to be situationally aware, but not paranoid. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, there's a difference between those. And it's an amazing skill set. It's an amazing skill set, if you look at it that way. Like, I mean, how many veterans and first responders is a very low number of our population. You have a cool skill set that can be very useful that some people will never understand. And it can freak your wife out, too. Yeah. It can. It can. Yes. But we just have the- Well, she is shocked sometimes at what I can pick up on. Yeah. Like pre-violent indicators. I can, and I'm sure all of us can, especially with your old job, when you're sitting there, I don't want anybody to go into my office. I don't want anybody to go into my YouTube browser history, because it is all either sovereign citizen stops. Yep. I'm going to be honest. That's about 80% of what it is, because I love them. But then I found this guy, and maybe you've heard of him, Sergeant Curtis. He's on YouTube, and he just breaks down what you're. And he's talking about a lot of tactical stuff, like staying at the BP. And he's just explaining it. But in these videos, if you know what you're looking for, you can see it going south. And he uses them as a training tool. He was a Las Vegas PD guy. Retired quite some time ago. They're fantastic. If I'm being honest, I just like watching people get taste. Yeah. But it's amazing how often it doesn't work. I know. They don't get enough spread or the probe. I think it's like 40% tops. Mm-mm-mm-mm. Yeah. Also, cops don't put, apparently, you shouldn't reach into people's cars when they're driving off. That is a new trend. I've never heard of it before, but it's not working out too well. Well, the videos of that not happening don't do as well on the internet. Yeah. You have to remember that, too. The algorithm is feeding you what you are participating in. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I am 100% participating in that. Yeah. But the pre-violence indicators, once you are used to looking at those or seeing those, you can see stuff. And I've been with my wife, Leah. The last time it happened, we were up in Nelson, British Columbia. We were up there for snowboarding. And I'm just watching this couple. They were, what's the appropriate term these days? Unhoused. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That is. Yes. They were homeless. I heard that. And I feel like they were, based off, based off of the rapid nature of the way they were moving and behaving and the conversations animating. She was sitting there talking with a friend. I just said, hey, let's just cross the street here. She said, why? And I said, because I'm already not liking what I'm seeing. Yeah. A little bit later, they got into a little fist to cuffs. Nobody seemed to care because apparently they were just, that's Bob and Frank. And they do that on the corner. But I'd rather avoid that. Yeah. So some of it's awesome. You can't probably turn it off, but I 100% can dial it down. Definitely. You don't have to sit with my back and to every wall and count the exits or any of those things. If that's how people want to live their life amped up like that, I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. But I am here to tell you, life is more enjoyable when you can balance those things. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I like to call it about a dimmer switch. Yeah. You know, because, yeah, I don't think you're ever going to shut it off completely. It's in your head. DJ Shipley talks about it well. Dials, not switches. Yeah, for sure. And it's something we need to incorporate. But the lack. The lack of understanding. And then you get stuck under that diagnosis of PTSD. You just think like, oh, this is how I have to be or I'm fucked up because of this. And that's not what we wanted to see, you know, so. And there's a difference, too, between the external world calling you a broken toy and then you grabbing onto that tight. Right, yeah. And I think the second one is way more dangerous. Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. So, man, it's just been just kind of a journey for me going through this process of being able to share my story, talking about, which I think was a lot of fun. It was a good in the time when I started sharing about, you know, first responders going through this stuff. I think it was important. I don't think there was a lot of people doing it. You know, I know Travis Howes was out there doing it. it. He was like probably the biggest one, but then a lot more people started coming out. And I just, I almost started to feel, I don't know, kind of, I just, I'm tired of like slamming my fist about PTSD and saying we have it. And, and just after that, that episode with, you know, Dr. Christopher and operator syndrome, I just started really taking a journey of like, what does this look like, man? Maybe, maybe I'm not broken. Maybe I can still thrive in life. And, uh, super fortunate that, you know, him and I had been working together. We speak together. We, you know, we like tomorrow we're going to be in Helena, uh, speaking for a sheriff's department and just sharing my story, but doing a lot, talking a lot more about post-traumatic growth than we ever have and diving into some of the childhood things and how that can affect us just to, just to create awareness. So people, man, it's okay. It's okay to reach out for help. You know, we got too many people that are still, you know, checking out, taking their lives and we got to, I don't, I know we're never going to eliminate it completely. It's just, I don't know. We can't, but the reductionist approach is way more effective for sure. The absolutionist approach to driving it to zero. Yeah. Just when people say that, I just think you don't understand humans because this is a human issue. And if we can solve it in all of humanity, that would be amazing. I don't think that's the case, but let's drive it as close as we can to zero. I agree. I still, I mean, I know we know a bunch of police officer friends from training in jujitsu and the stats are the stats. I think it's somewhere between four to 600 traumatic incidents that they'll be exposed to over a career where your average civilian is probably four to six in their life. I don't know why anybody ever in any position in that career field would think or have the expectation that that doesn't have a burden or an impact, but it seems as if, and maybe this is changing. A lot of the departments are at least acknowledging that maybe they don't necessarily have a burden or an impact, but it seems as if, and maybe this is changing. know what to do, but they understand that there is a change that occurs with that level of exposure. And I don't, I mean, again, I never spent a day with a badge and gun, but I don't think you could do that job and not have those experiences. I don't think the other officers would like you, if you only went to like jaywalking calls. I feel like you guys kind of keep track of who shows up on game day and who doesn't. 100%. Yeah. So, so it's impossible to do that job well, without those exposures, but yet there are still these antiquated systems in place where the answer is, yeah, just, yeah. Keep doing your job. Keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah. You need time off. Well, we don't have, you know, see you tomorrow at your shift. I don't see how that is a reasonable expectation of working ever. Yeah. I mean, that's always a challenge, right? I mean, again, we can complain about systems and organizations or being short staffs. You can't take time off or whatever that may be. I mean, I don't see how that is a reasonable expectation of working ever. But we still can take daily steps to help that. And, you know, you sit here, even when you're saying that, like who would ever thought 400 to 600 incidents, you're going to be okay. But man, that's just how you roll into the career. That's probably a non-SWAT officer as well. Oh, for sure. Oh, 100%. Because those calls, I mean, you know, I've been with my buddies in the truck and the calls come on. I'm like, what's that one? He goes, oh yeah, we're going to do that first. Those are fun. Not all the calls are dramatic. They're not all the same, but I think you just, you flow into this culture of that. Yeah. You just keep pushing on and what are you going to do? And which I, I do believe it's changing, Andy. I, I have seen across the country that there's some, there's a lot of good organizations trying to do good work. I think, you know, departments are starting to look at this. Obviously the bigger organizations are quicker to come into it because they're more progressive than, you know, a smaller department here in Montana, you know, but we are making strides, but we still have a long way to go. And it's just, it's having that understanding, just like what you're saying, you're going to struggle with some things. It's going to be a bad day. And, you know, the organization I work for now, Boulder Crest, one of the biggest things we say. Where did they come up with that name, by the way? Boulder Crest? Yeah. Is it a Colorado based? No, it's, it's based out of Blue, Blue Mont, Virginia. Boulder? Yeah. Boulder Crest. Yeah. Crest as in a name crest? Yes. Ask them where they came up with that. I will. I should. See, now you stumped me with a question. I should, clearly it was developed just outside of Denver. I'm like, obviously. That is a good question. But, you know, the biggest thing is, is creating that understanding of, you know, these things are going to happen to you, no matter, you're not going to get around it, but how do you, how are you going to deal with it? How are you going to seek help? And I think if we create that culture that it's allowed, it's accepted, you know, we continue to make these changes. So, yeah. Well, I think even what you're talking, talking about like those first couple of incidents that like first responders tend to have, like when it's the big one, they'll usually look to like career. What's that? Do you mean early on? Yeah. Like, yeah. The first big ones, whether that's a nasty wreck or whatever, right. Kid stuff. I think what tends to happen is guys will look at like their corporal or sergeant being like, yeah. Right. And if they looked at their corporals and sergeant, like, you know, just all the way down the line, they're just like crazy, huh? All right, here we go. Yeah. Right. And then you have that, that culture that just learn like over and over and over and like nobody's, nobody has the understanding of like, Hey, we need to stop. I don't think anybody ever gets into like first responder world and is never like, ah, it's not going to be that bad. Like, I think you have an idea going into it. Probably going to be some spicy stuff. Right. Yeah. Rest in bad, dude. See some, see some terrible shit. But I think those first couple of calls and that's, that's what I've seen with the guys that I talked to is like the first couple of calls that are like that. Whoa, this is real. Real is like, they looked at their corporals and their sergeants like, what do I do? Right. Right. And whatever those guys are doing, when you first get that imprint, like that's what those guys will tend to do. And I think it has to be a cultural shift as far as like what that looks like. Like you can have, you can have all the, you know, we've all had been a part of somewhere like the, the program is there like, Hey, we have this program. We have a mental health program or a peer support program, whatever. And if admin's like, yep, you know, we got a hominous dominus. That's good to go. We're going to do this thing. That's great. But if it's not actually being used at like the grassroots, like booth on the ground level, like it'll never take off. Right. There has to be a cultural shift. And like what I've seen kind of going back to what you were talking about, what I've seen with the guys where there's a culture shift is like when the corporals and sergeants are actually going in, maybe seeing somebody being open about their mental health to the new guys. Right. I know there's a lot of places around here now locally and like in the Flathead Valley where even during their end doc will pulse and PD, like as soon as they hire somebody like the George Simpson, the captain there, he will, or the, the police chief, he tells them, Hey, like mental health is really important. These are all the things we have going on. We have a guy and it's, it's me. He's like, Hey, we have a guy go see him. And basically what it is is like, Hey man, these are some of the stuff you're going to experience. We have it broken down. I got this really cool little thing that I've kind of created over the years. And it's like, Hey, from years zero to five, like you can expect these things to be happening. Be on the lookout. Here's year six through 10, 11, 15, 15 plus. Right. When these things are happening, you're not like, you're not a unicorn. Like this happens to most people expect this, look at this stuff early and often. Right. And I think those kinds of conversations, whether like admins, it's admin is at least starting it, but your corporals and your sergeants, the people are actually pushing what's happening when those guys have buy-in and they, either they get help or it's been productive for them in some way, then they're telling their guys like, Oh man, I, did I feel better? So when he sees a guy go through a crazy call, they're like, Hey, you should probably just chat with somebody. Right. And if you're a corporal or sergeant is telling you like, Hey, you should probably go talk to somebody. Cause I do too. Right. Or whatever their version of that is, they're going to go. And that's, I think that's how you get an actual culture shift. Yeah. Not just like the chief or the sheriff being like, this is what we do now. Nobody fucking cares. Right. One, it's got to work, but then two, there's got to be buy-in or you're never going to get anywhere. That way upon them. Do they fit into buckets? And is that just, those buckets are just generally associated with the job and it's just the totality of the exposure to them. Kids stuff. Yeah. Motor vehicle stuff. People who are, whether that's like disabled or elderly people, like those kinds of things. Some of that can also depend on your background. But I would say like the major buckets, like those are the buckets. And we were talking about post-traumatic stress, like earlier on. What I would also say is that, you know, there's a lot of people that it's been my experience since working with the police that less police have actually post-traumatic stress and they're dealing with more like moral injury stuff. You hear that term? Okay. Yeah. And that's like- Nobody can seem to agree what causes it. Yeah. But I mean, what would you describe it as? So I would say, this is how I have the conversation with my guys. Like we all have a set of morals in our life. Like what we think is right and wrong, depending on how we grew up, what our culture is, right? Like we don't do anything wrong. We don't do anything wrong. We don't do anything to kids. Like we don't harm women, that kind of stuff. And when you're constantly engaged in something where your morals are basically being transgressed, like walking into a house and kids and just absolute filth, kid getting shot, ran over, you're seeing that over and over and over. Like there's some damage that happens to your moral compass, I think. And that's how I would basically like classify that. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah. And for, you know, you talk about, is it, what kind of incidents? You never know, Andy, what's going to affect one person. I mean, I remember at Mesa, you know, you'd have, you know, larger departments. So there's an officer involved shooting. You just have two or three shooters. One of the shooters may be completely fine and it didn't bother him. The other person, something about that call really affected him. And so that's even more reason why it's not necessarily important for me to share like the gory details and all this shit that happened. It's what, what happened after, how was I feeling, you know, because that's where the intersection takes place. Like we all come from all these different experiences, you know, dealt with these things, seeing the worst of society, seeing the worst of war. But after those incidents, usually our intersection comes right together. Like this is where we're feeling the same thing. We're coping negatively in the same way. Like, why are these things going on? Why can't I sleep? Why do I think I need to have alcohol to numb tonight? Those, you know, it's all the same. So I don't like to focus so much even on the incidents because you just never know. I mean, you were laying out your template of zero to five, five to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20 in Mesa. Was it the number of years on or the age that you got to? That you would time out? Oh, you could get out at 20, 20 years. Yeah. Okay. 20 years is a lot. So let's say somebody gets out at 50 life expectance after that is about 57 for those officers with heart disease. I understand that you would lose a lot of experience, but I'm curious what would happen if you limited people to 10 years versus 20, you know, and you make the bucket shallower or the volume, hopefully less. And I'm not necessarily advocating for this, but it's also a conversation I have with guys from my old job as well. Is it, would it be beneficial to limit people's combat exposure? The problem is this, the person you're talking about who you're trying to limit, and I would put myself into this category as well as would fight you tooth and nail because it's all they've ever wanted to do and they love the job. And I get that. But do you like living more than seven years after you retire? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've thought about, you know, I've thought about, you know, I've thought about could we incorporate sabbaticals? Could we do some things where they're going through extensive care halfway through a career because the, the balance is the experience. Yeah. I mean, especially like, and you start getting into specialty units, I mean, at least five years on the streets, you know what the fuck you're doing. And then you want to go do something else. Like if you got on our team, I mean, it's three to four years easy before you feel like, okay, I'm finally understanding what everything is that we do. There's ways you could do it though. I mean, you don't maybe have to leave the department. But your whole job after 10 is to pass your knowledge on and pour it into your, I wouldn't even necessarily say a field training officer. Cause you might get, again, I've never spent a day in a police car, but I'm pretty sure if the FTO is there and things go sideways, they're going to get involved with the new officer. The training academy where you're going and taking in new recruits out there. You're in a controlled environment, but you're passing on your knowledge. Or your job is to travel to other departments and transfer the knowledge back and forth and bring things back. Whether it's technology, tactics, techniques, procedures. I'm not advocating for it, but these are things that I think about because dying at 57 for your average officer, that's crazy, man. Yeah, it is. I mean, the pressure cooker, the stress involved in that job, I just don't think a lot of people understand. And it has a long-term consequence. You're fried at the end of that. Well, I'm 54. I'm going to beat that number. That's good. What are you going for, 60? No, man. I want to go 90. Fuck that. If I'm still going, I'm going to beat that number. What if you're good up here? What if you're good up there, but not physically capable? Your choice is more. You can live to 90, but you're in a wheelchair. Or you can live to 80, and you're active until your last day. 80. 80 and active until your last day. Healthspan, not lifespan is what I'm going for. Yeah, longevity. Being good. Yeah, I agree with that. Okay. So what are you doing now with the Boulder Crest, guys? So, yeah. So I'd been through a bunch of therapy. EMDR was super powerful for me. I'd call it softening some of the hot spots from major incidents that I had that I was just struggling with, having nightmares, et cetera. And so I thought I was pretty good. I guess I thought it was as good as it was going to get. I would still, I was living here in Montana, doing my thing. I mean, even when I was here on the podcast, speaking, you know, all over the country, consulting. But I'd still wake up on days, and I'm fucking depressed. I'm like, how can I be looking out at the view that we had? And just be sad. Like, what is going on? And that, I kind of fell under that diagnosis, or fell under the PTSD diagnosis. I'm like, well, I guess this is as good as it gets. And then one of my former SWAT lieutenants, he said, hey, I know what you're doing now. You're out here advocating. I want you to talk to this guy from Boulder Crest Foundation. And just, I think your missions are somewhat aligned. So I got on a Zoom with this dude and one of the board of directors from Boulder Crest. And we were talking and just back and forth what I do, our beliefs. And then the generalist. The gentleman from Boulder Crest said, hey, I'd love you to come to one of our programs. And this one specifically was set up for first responders. And you go for a week into Texas. You spend five days there at one of the ranches that we have. And it's all in person. You're controlled environment. Five-star treatment. And then when you get out, there's another 85 days to where you're doing Zoom calls every two weeks with a team that you're there with. So I was there with 11 other people. And you just continue. You're down this process of post-traumatic growth. And, man, I went into it super skeptical. I'm like, what the fuck are these guys going to tell me? I've been working with Brandon. I've done this therapy. There's nothing else out here. And I went in. And, man, within like 24 hours, I was like, this is the ticket. Because Boulder Crest, what they do, it's not a retreat. Like, we don't like it. I mean, there's so many veterans organizations which are doing great things where it's a retreat. You come there. You experience the outdoors. Whatever it may be. Great stuff. Ours is not a retreat. It's a training program. You're coming in. And we tell people when they apply for program, you get interviewed. The person that's interviewing tells their story. It's either first responder or veteran. And then it's a recruitment process. Are you fit for program? We're not a crisis intervention thing. We really like people that have been down the road of some sort of a journey, like trying to get better, what that may look like. And so I get invited to come to this program. And, man, it was. It was training, which I could relate to. They talk about your skill set. All of us sitting in this room, veterans and or first responders, you've went through some sort of training in your life. You know what it means to commit to a process. And a lot of it just starts with daily practices of how we can change our mindset. I mean, and then literally down to the neuroplasticity in our brains by, you know, how we talk to ourselves, how we look at every day, gaining perspective from our experiences rather than thinking, oh, man, this is, you know, I had a. Shitty childhood, you know, fuck that. I can't believe this happened to me. Well, maybe we take a different view. Like, let's let's gain perspective from what happened. Understanding this is probably how you got here. Now, let's throw in all the training you had, the calls you went on, the deployment you had. What does that look like? And it's bringing you to a point of understanding again, man, like some of it's so simple when it hits you in the face. You're like, I knew all this stuff, but I just had to have it, you know, presented to me in a different way. And so I went through that process and it was it was life changing because now I had resources that every single day I could make the choice. Like, I'm not going to live under this diagnosis. I'm going to change the way I think I'm going to change the way I view myself. I'm going to change the way I view others and the world, you know. And I said, I got to be a part of this organization. So I was still doing my thing, you know, talking across the country. And so I got I. I went to them and said, I'm interested, like some way being involved with you all. And they presented an opportunity with me to actually first become a guide is our program called Struggle Well and Struggle Well is a program that is for first responder organizations across the country to where Mesa PD, my old department actually has it, which is kind of a weird story that they adopted it. But it actually started in Tucson and came up to Mesa. But it's a program where we it's called Struggle Well. And you go through a five. Five day class at the department talking to you about post-traumatic growth, not focusing on, you know, the PTSD, but you're focused on growing through your experiences in a new perspective. And so I did that. And then I had an opportunity to they said, hey, would you like to be a part of a team that's going to handle the in-person programs coming to Texas? I said, hell, yeah. So got involved with that and got some really cool opportunities to help, you know, shape some of the stuff we were doing in the future. And that's what I've been doing so far. And we're working with first responders. We work with the V.A., you know, because the V.A. is starting to, you know, be open to other options because they realize that some of the systems they have in place just maybe haven't been working. The people in the V.A. are really good people. They want to make changes. It's just such a big frickin like machine. Yeah. I mean, I was telling him, like, I know our CEO and the founder had been having conversations for 10 years with the V.A. And it just. It just takes that long to get any major changes. Unfortunately, yeah. And so, yeah. So we do this program and it's we bring people in for five days. We have a place in Texas. We have a place in Bluemont, Virginia, which is our home base. And then we have a place in Arizona. And then we just got a new place in Wyoming where a Vietnam vet man just has nobody he wanted to leave his property to. And he donated his whole ranch to Boulder Crest. And it's going to be another place where we host these programs. We do family. retreats, you know, for like a, um, come in for just some, you know, R and R type for people that have been dealing with stuff, gold star families, et cetera. So damn. Yeah. What was the biggest shift between the modalities that they were using versus what you had experienced before? Was it just a structured tools? Like you said, yeah, it was structured, man. So it, it really starts with how we, how we start every day, starting with a mindset of gratitude, a mindset of whatever's going to happen this day. Cause we, I mean, you're talking the instant you wake up, the instant you wake up, like you are, you're getting into a process and using some resources. So do you check Instagram first before doing this or you absolutely do not Andy checking that I do that. Yeah. And it's yeah. Cause I mean, that's an issue, but no, it's, it's a change in mindset about, we're not going to get rid of the struggle. That's the problem. The shit's going to happen. Life is hard. It's futile to get rid of the struggle. Right. So you're going to need to learn how to embrace it. And we, we've all done that. That's the thing. Our communities, veterans and first responders, we've done that in some sort of training we've been part of. We like, this is going to suck, but I have to do it to make myself better or to reach that achievement, make that team or get through the police academy or get through bootcamp. I don't care what it is. So you, you take this, uh, attitude shift and you shape your day, uh, based on, um, gratitude, make setting intentions on and on and on of how, you're going to embrace the day. You writing these down or is this a verbal practice? I write them down. What do they, do they, do they really care? It's not prescriptive. It's not. Yeah. It's not prescriptive, man. That's one thing I really appreciate about Boulder Crest. We don't, we don't say our way is the way it's a way it's just, but it's an attitude shift and how you embrace each and every day. You know, and I told you like on where we were walking here, much of the things you talk about in your book, it's, it's post-traumatic growth, man. I mean, it is just realizing that I'm not going to be able to sidestep the struggles, issues that come my way, but I can, if I embrace it in a point of like, yeah, it's still going to be difficult. It's going to be hard work, but at the end of it, I'm going to come out on the other side. I, the more I navigate my own life, the more I'm coming to the realization that this easy life on the horizon could be a bill of goods that has been sold to us. And I don't say that negatively because I think the reason why that is sold is, is a motivational attempt to get people to do the things that they need to do. But I think it is way more powerful if you realize it's actually, what was your guys called? Struggle well. Yeah. Suffer well. Right. Yes. Don't steal my shit. Cause I stole that from another organization, but as, as, and I want to make a t-shirt that says that. And then somebody sent me, cause I said it once on the show and they sent me something. I said, I want to make a t-shirt that says that. And then somebody sent me, several examples of it already exists. I'm like proof that I've never had a unique idea in my entire life, but today's episode is brought to you by fire cracker farm. You want to talk about things that integrate into my life. This product right here might be one of the easier ad reads that I do. I am putting this hot salt on just about everything. And I'm going to be the first to tell you, I don't understand the chemical reaction and how it's able to pull the flavors out of everything. I'm putting it on from eggs in the morning to avocado toast to steak, just about everything. I'm not a psychopath. I don't put it on fruit. I haven't tried that yet. I don't understand how it does it, how it pulls the flavors out, how it makes everything that I eat taste better, but it does. My recommendation to you is to head over to firecracker.farm to check out what they have to offer because they have legitimately very spicy hot salts, but they also have new stuff like the vanilla heat flavor, which I'm pretty sure Alex's daughter had the idea for. They sent me some, it has been my absolute go-to. And then we're going to go ahead and get started. We're going to get started. It's going to come in these stainless steel push button grinders. All you got to do is drive the plunger down with your thumb and you can control how much I don't have a crazy heat tolerance. So I'll generally use one or two pumps, but you can go as insane as you may like. So you can get them on firecracker.farm, or we actually sell these in the coffee shop here locally in Kalispell. Or if you live somewhere that has a black rifle coffee, you can get them in store as well. Alex and his family are creating these products together at their small family farm. So this is your opportunity to really level up your seasoning game, but also support the American dream for a family that is all in on this and they're doing it together. So it's an amazing opportunity. The best way to do so probably for most people head over to firecracker.farm. If you, and this is easier to say than do as everybody at this table and probably everybody in life can intuitively feel in their bones. If you can learn to enjoy what it is, you are working your way through this horizon of easy, happy days where you're sitting on the porch, doing nothing, looking back upon all of your old work becomes way less enticing and your life that you're living through becomes way more enjoyable, at least in my own experience, by not thinking about shady acres, you think about. Yeah. Learning to appreciate the fact that sometimes life just sucks. And it does for everybody, even the people that have it the most figured out. I know for a fact that they have horrible days. I was having a conversation with somebody recently and they were talking about that. They're a leadership coach, super high level leadership coach, fortune 50 companies, billionaires. And externally, I know people look at that and they, and they would say, that must be nice. They have everything. And he said, he gets into these rooms with these, uh, he said men specifically. So I'll repeat the word that he said, and they burst into tears and they're scared and they're riddled with anxiety and they have nobody to share it with. It's like big money is big problems, but the key and all that is, is the problems. Yeah. We all have them. I don't care what you can acquire and possess. It's not going to get rid of the problem. Right. And again, easier to say than do, but shifting my mindset to trying to enjoy the struggles of everyday life has been hugely beneficial for me. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the key right there. I mean, we can either go through it and be pissed off and live as a victim, or we can embrace it and learn, you know, learn through the process. And man, I know obviously you worked at a high level, but as far, and I enjoyed my time with SWAT and that was cool getting that skillset. I now look at training my mind even more enjoyable. Like if I can get control of this shit every day, like that's a pretty big feat. Good luck with that. The struggle continues. Yeah. Yeah. For everybody. So when you wake up in the morning, what does my morning look like? As your eyes open, you're reaching for a journal. So this is what I do. So yeah, I get out of bed, set an alarm. I'm either 4.30, 5 in the morning is when I get up. Why? Why? Because that's when my day starts, but. Why? Because I got shit to do, Andy. Okay. And, but that starts the night before. I know when I'm going to go to bed. I know. What time? 8.30, 9 o'clock, I guess we're rolling. Strong. Yeah, it is strong, man. I love my sleep now because sleep sucked when I was working. Sleep is amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. Like it's, I'm like, this is badass. I'm eight hours of sleep. I feel a whole lot funnier. Wake up feeling rested and everything. So I get up in the morning and yeah. I go, you know, hit the bathroom, head downstairs, get the coffee going. Yeah. I put on some meditative music and sit down. I state my gratitude, my intentions for the day. So you're talking out loud to yourself? I do. And I'm not saying it's weird. No, I do. No. Maybe to the neighbors, but I mean. Yeah, I'm very quiet. Yeah. Yeah. But no, and I journal it and then I, you know, set, I have I am statements that, that I say every day. And I'm just, before I even look at text messages, before I look at, yeah, social media, fuck that. I go through a process because I want to get a, I want to get that right before I let the world in. And that shift of doing that every single day. And what we see from our students is incredibly powerful, man. Just taking agency over your life again. 100% man. And I think, again, this seems so simple when we sit here and talk about it and like, how in the hell did I miss it for so long? And I don't know. How do we not, why, is the first move, and I'm including myself in this too, when you wake up for your phone? Why? I don't know. What does that anxiety rectangle provide for me? Yeah. That I need. A little bit of dopamine, right? Yeah. Is it? It's gotta be. I have to know what's going on in the streets. As if I understand the geopolitical. So we are, I had a, we had a program where we had some students in there and we were talking about, you know, your morning routine starts with your bedtime routine. You need to figure out when you're going to bed. And, and, uh, we talked about screen time and one of them said, but you know, iPhones have this new blue light feature. You can shut it down at night. And I'm like, that's great, but you're still looking at the damn phone and all the shit on there. You know, who uses that excuse in my household? My wife. Don't tell her. I told you that won't happen. Didn't happen. But it's like, that's how addictive we are. They literally, Oh, you, you don't like this at night here. We'll do a blue light feature, but still consume all the shit we put in there. So it's if people, and again, I'm including myself, just calculate the amount of time wasted on your phone. Yeah. You could have a side hustle, probably bringing in six figures, if not more. Yeah. If you did it. And, but And I get it. Sometimes you just want to sit down and watch reels for five minutes. And perhaps if you could do that for five minutes, that would be okay. But everything designed about that ecosystem is the opposite of that. Yeah. And I, yeah, I hope some of that changes, but yeah, man, it's just, it's taking control of your life. That agency is incredible. So the mornings are critically important. What do you do throughout your day to keep yourself? So meditation. Yeah. But I'm not a long meditator. That was a practice that was introduced to me at Boulder Crest, like 15 minutes tops for me. Some people do it longer, but it's just a reset. It's being able to sit quietly, be in the moment and not let the shit from the world overtake you that day. I mean, cause I'm incredibly busy now with all this stuff that I'm doing. And it's sometimes one or two o'clock in the afternoon. Yeah. I've got to take a pause because I just, I feel just getting a little sideways or feel, you know, I'm amped up like, okay, this is ridiculous. This isn't, no one's dying today. Like just sit back and. You know, take a breath and take some time for yourself. And, uh, the mindset, man, is everything. If we can, if we can change that and how our first responders look. And that's why our, I believe our program was struggle well in the warrior path program, the people come to us. It's just been gigantic changes. I've had such a privilege, even bringing in people from my old department have been coming to program and, uh, you know, just seeing these people that have been on the job for a long ass time and they get to program. And it's just, it's this enlightening moment where they're like, shit, I did not know what in the world was going on, but now that I do, I can actually take control of this. And so it's, it's incredibly powerful, man. I'm sure the answer to this will change by a department. Did you guys spend much time talking about what you were going to do after you were police officers? No. And that's a huge thing that. Is it almost frowned upon to think beyond the journey that you're on? It is almost a betrayal to the occupation. I mean, it can be, or you've got the typical of, I'm going to go teach hostage rescue school for this organization, or I'm going to go do that, which is almost the same. You're not getting out of it. Yeah, man. And, or you've got the people that they're working so much while they're on the job, taking every overtime shift. And then they're the people that like, yep, uh, retired in two years later, they're no longer with us. And was that worth it? You know? So it's a balance, man. And I, I mean, you know, I'll never criticize anyone for giving a lot to the job. I think our job is going to take a lot, right? Well, I think it requires it. We have to. The requirements of that job and what you guys are and gals are empowered and entrusted to do. It takes a lot. Yeah. But we just have to learn how to, again, take agency and, and balance, find balance. And, uh, I think I was off before, man, just all the stuff. With you're going to come out with PTSD. You're going to have this. I don't think it has to be that that way. Um, but you've got to be willing to take, you've got to be willing to take a knee and say, Hey, can someone show me this? What does this look like? I think you're right. I mean, you're going to be changed like when you're that long in that career, but it's a matter of like, how am I actually going to shift that change? What am I actually doing with the things that are happening? Right. Versus just like eating them. And then again, two years after you get out, just kicking it down. Yeah, for sure. And one of the things that, that I like to talk about quite a bit is within. In sessions is like, it's tools, man. Like I think therapy, there is some processing, right. If you've got some really gnarly shit in the background with EMDR or whatever, but like the basis of all the stuff that I do with my guys is tools, man. I just, I re I literally frame it as like, Hey man, like I'm here to give you tools to figure out how to like work through and deal with the things that are happening. And like, we got to figure out what we're going to do with like these incidents and these incidents, like moving forward, but like literally giving people tools. Like that's, that's what I feel like, um, a good version of therapy is for people. People who are still in it, right. With veterans, they're overseas. They did their thing. They came back. We can deal with that stuff, but with cops. And I think you, I know you've said this in the past, like they've dealt with in the past, they probably dealt with it today and they're definitely going to deal with it tomorrow. Right. There's not like a, Hey, like let's go ahead and stitch this thing up. All right. You're good to go moving forward. Right. We have to figure out exactly how to, how to deal with those things in real time as are happening. And like, we were talking about the mindset, having those tools to figure out, all right, when I go to like a crazy baby death, or if I go to a real life, I'm going to go to a real life. I'm going to go to a real life. Or if there's a really wild, like a DV thing, I know it kind of sets me off this way. And when I'm feeling this way, like whether here, like, you know, if I'm, if I have my ears get hot or my stomach turns or whatever, these are the tools that I have to like, to counteract those things. Right. It allows us to not have that cumulative load of that career for 20 years. There's just like one thing after the next, you can actually diagnose, like internally diagnose some mastery of self internally of, Hey, when I'm going to these kinds of calls, this is what's happening. Okay. This is the thing that I do for that. Right. And like literally giving people tools that like, Hey man, once those, once you learn those tools, like cool, if you think you're good, like go ahead. I don't, you don't need to be in therapy for, you don't need to be a career client, right? You can, you know, a year, maybe two years tops. If you have a lot of stuff going on, you should be able to clear that bucket, get those tools. Cause most of the, one of the things I love about working with first responders, they don't want to be in the place that they're at. You could argue that with some veterans, but the first responders want to do their job and they want to do a good job and they don't want to be, you know, quote unquote, as fucked up as they are. They want to learn the tools and then they want to get out and do the thing. Cool. All right. We'll come in and check in, you know, in six months and I'll let you know how I'm doing, but I have these tools. This is how I'm going to use them and having some autonomy, right. Of what that looks like for whenever things are happening. Hey, these are the things I'm doing with it. And having that sense of competency of knowing, Hey, this is what's going on. This is what I'm doing with that piece. Super important. What kind of tools do you give them? Give me some examples of what you arm people with. Yep. So he talked about some of these, right? So meditation is a big one. One of the ones I always have to try to have people do people really struggle with this, especially if they're kind of in the thick of it, as I'll tell them, Hey man, like sit on the foot of your bed for 10 minutes, no electronics, no nothing. Just check in from like top to bottom. Like how is my head feeling? Where are my shoulders? Where are my thoughts going? What's happening with all this stuff? Just the ability. That's like step one, just the ability to have a, an understanding of what's going on with me. Cause most dudes were kind of trained this way is we're kind of trained to shut down that, that physical response or like the, uh, the reaction to the physical response, basically just ignore it. Like this hurts. I'm just going to keep doing the thing. Right. But when we have all this stuff going on, when you're talking about the trauma and that the, uh, the cumulative load, man, we have to know what's going on with our body. If we don't know what's going on with our body, we're, we're in trouble. Movement's a big one. I talk with a lot with my guys about diet and exercise. I don't know how many people do that. Like it's something that I enjoy myself. Um, and I put a lot of time and energy into it. And I try to get that information back to those guys. That stuff is really important. Simple things. What do you put in your body, man? Like, are you being, what about a tool for a call? Like you're saying, if you can self-diagnose your stomach turns, your ears are getting hot. What do you arm them with there? Or what kind of tools do you give them? So what I would first tell them is, you know, within the first couple, two, three days, like you're going to have a spike in all the things, whether it's like intrusive thoughts, images, uh, sleeplessness, anger, just knowing that that's a normalized response. Like there's that three days, give or take. And from like the three days going down to like the 30 days, there should be a slow, like you were talking about earlier, most people's going past that 30 days where they don't feel like, uh, uh, the, whatever's happening internally isn't, isn't clearing for them. One of the things, so obviously meditation is always a big one, but then also working through them. Like what I will have people do is have them go from the very, the very start of when we say it's a call. If we get a call and then go talk all the way through that and you don't have to be around anybody else. You can do it by yourself, but just talk through step-by-step of that call and continue to do it. And then you're going to have people continue to go through that piece step-by-step. And I can actually run that thing verbally instead of like keeping it trapped up here. Cause then that thing, it just always tends to morph. Does that make sense? So even something simple like that, where you can actually talk that call out or like you're talking about writing that stuff out and getting it down on paper. A lot of times there's a relief right there. Um, most of the time, if we're cognizant about that stuff, the body and the brain will slowly process that. If we give it time. I think the problem that a lot of times we're going to have to deal with is the day in and day out, right? It's the night shift, the day shift. And then the, um, you know, the sweet or the, the, the shift work for cops is the first responders is absolutely bonkers for them. It's the worst, right? Um, but just going for that days and nights and nights and days is it's, it just crushes people and without having any kind of, any kind of break in between, right. You could go to a shooting, right. You know, today two hours later, you could go to a kid death, right. An hour after that and go to a DV and just like this constant, you know, you're going to have to go to a kid death, right. And then I think that's where, um, a lot of the cops tend to struggle is just like the volume of the load that's caused. Like you're talking about what, um, what the job asks of them. And it's a lot, man. Is there any way, and I know that time is not, you're not always given the option of time, given the call that may come out, but what you're describing, you know, that computer, which should be illegal for police officers to type on while they're driving. I see it all the time and they want to give tickets for texting and driving like your device is several radio. The device is several times the size of mine. And I watch you no hand driving with your knee typing jealous. I'm just saying, don't write me a ticket if you're doing the same thing. Let's just have a gentleman's or gentle lady's agreement that you're not going to ticket me for doing the same thing. I remember one of the best things in Arizona was there was a motor. So he's on the bike going down the HOV lane and someone filmed him. He's texting as he's on the bike and it made the news. I'm like, you idiot. That got worse. Anyways. Given the fact that it can hop from call to call situation, incident to incident. And again, you know, sometimes you got to go lights and sirens and sometimes you'll have some downtime in between. Is there any way that they can relieve the pressure of that post call pre the next one? Do they have their tools for that? Yeah. So when guys are on the job, what I will tell them is like, if you have a call that we're like, oh boy, that's kind of hitting internally. If you can find a little like hidey hole where there's nobody like adding kind of sit there. If you can give yourself like five or 10 minutes of just like. And some breath work. Cause ultimately what you're trying to do is re-regulate the nervous system, right? It's when it stays on high for too long is where it becomes very problematic. Do something like that. I'll tell people, make sure it sounds simple, but make sure you're drinking water, throw some electrolytes in there. One of the other things, if you have like a hot call and then say you're roaring down the highway and then all of a sudden gets turned off. Well, you're in full fight or flight right now, right? Like the body's like, Hey, dump everything. Like all systems go. Um, well, you're in full fight or flight right now. What I'll have a lot of folks do is if you can, again, if you can find a little hidey hole or kind of a place away, go bust out like 50 air squats or 20, 30 pushups, like on your tailgate of your truck. Let some of that go-go juice that's in the body, at least flush a little bit, right? Drink some water, take a couple of deep breaths. But even knowing that we need to do, or they need to do that. A lot of folks don't even know that, but that is, I have a bunch of people who are doing that now and it's really helpful. And I'll ask them, Hey man, is this working or is it not? If it's not working, I'm like, all right, I'm going to stop. I'm telling people to do it, but it's working. Yep. And like, man, I am feeling better. I'm not feeling just like, Oh, Jack, when I get home or not as much, right. Trying to take a little bit of that edge off of that piece. One of the biggest things like he's talking about, um, you know, just being open to the change of the culture is being able to disclose. So we, uh, Dr. Tedeschi, who is the, he's the one that coined post-traumatic growth. He's the head of our Institute for Boulder Crest. The foundational story is the Hanoi Hilton talking about. Those guys, how they were willing to disclose because they had someone step up the plate, the leadership and said, Hey, you know, welcome to the club. Like we've all been there. We all made these mistakes or we gave more information. And that's one thing that changed in the culture. Like we would just hold onto this shit. Like you go to these calls and you're like, I'm just, I'm not going to tell anyone this is messing me up. But even the simple act of a like-minded individual, like, Hey, I just, I want to tell you this, man, this call got to me. Like I saw my little girl's face in that, you know, that death, whatever that may be. That is so much relief to your system, man, to just get it out or write it down is super powerful. Yeah. Well, we just had that with the, uh, with one of the recent OIS is here. Um, you know, the guys did what they did. Um, and there was a pretty good chunk of time between the shooting and then also the interview. And basically they're, they're closed lit, man. Like they can't talk to anybody about that incident. Um, you know, once they ended up having their interviews and we all had some conversations with them. Do you meet, not to interrupt you, but do you mean interview professionals? Yeah. Do you mean like a professional from an investigative agency? Correct. Yeah. The OIS guy. Yep. Yep. Um, so they basically mums a word until they actually have that. And then we ended up having the citizens after that. Um, but every single person, and I've been involved in five or six OISs now, every single person, like after that interview, their ability to be like, this is what I did. This is what I saw. This is what happens. Like a palpable. One of the guys was like, Hey man, I slept like 12 or 14 hours afterwards. Yeah. After the interview or after tackling the interview? Hmm. Yeah. I mean, you're reprocessing and like you said, you're externalizing something that's been living rent-free in your head. Just going right. Especially something as big as like an OIS, right? Where life has been taken, right? That's a big deal. Do they intentionally put that time in between incident and interview so they can have time to process what had happened and then be able to describe it better? Or is that just because it's smaller up here and it takes longer? That's a great question. Um, I, I, I don't know the answer to that one. How'd they do it at Mesa? Well, so yeah, so after an officer-involved shooting happens or an incident that has to be investigated by whether it's an outside agency or whatever, yeah, you're going to be almost quarantined. They take your body cam, you're not allowed to talk to anyone and you're, you're almost. About the incident. About the incident. Yeah. So you just have to be closed mouth and for our, our incidents they would take after an officer-involved shooting, you may be sitting around for eight, nine, ten hours. Ten hours before you even get to process through it because it just takes that time to get the investigators there, they do walkthroughs. They would do it same day. Yeah. Oh yeah, same day. And you're talking about multiple day, right? Yeah, yeah. Ours is all same day. But larger agency, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah, there's far less officers and deputies on duty up here than most people. Well, and that's exactly what was happening, right? And there was no shade on them. It's like those guys are so busy and again, most small agencies I'm finding now working all over Montana understaffed. Yeah. They're just really understaffed. Because isn't it, is it the Montana Bureau of Investigations that does that? Like they have a separate entity that comes out. Because I have talked to some officers in Montana that have been in shootings and that was one of the hardest things. Like I don't even have my interview for days and then they're just having to sit there and hold on to it and they want to get it out. Yeah. And so, but I don't know what the way around it is. I mean, that's just, we have smaller departments here. There's not as many people, you know, that's just something we're going to have to deal with. I'm sure there's a balance between two quickly. And then too far out there. I think some time to process is good. Too much time to have it just. Can be delivered. The carousel in your head is probably not a great thing. Yeah. Well, definitely like for writing the report, we would do something like, yeah, go home, get a night of sleep and then come back and write because it's just. I'm sure they're sleeping so soundly. Yeah. Right. Or you're using alcohol. You're like, I need to go have a bourbon. Yeah, to time travel. Yeah. It's rough, man. People don't understand. And the burden that's associated with that. It's a, it's hard to describe. Yeah. Yeah. So when you guys go speak in Helena, how do you guys do it? You both get up there at the same time. You guys go up individually. How do you guys do it? So, yeah, I have a presentation set up that we do. I share my story. I go through a process of it. And then for each piece of it, I bring him in and allow him to share the clinical perspective of like what was really going on. I'm just a dude talking to some other people about my shit and, you know, what I went through. And then he can give his perspective of things he's saying today. Because I'm not, again, I'm not a therapist just like you. So I let him talk about that and how, what's the better way to process through things. So, and it's just sharing my story, man. And then I will be talking more. This is the first time, I guess. Yeah. Working with him that I'll, I'll share about Boulder Crest and the, and the, the programs that we have that what we can offer. And it's been really cool in Montana because we have had, he's had some of his people go through our program and he calls me. He's like, I don't know. Fuck you guys are doing there. But this person came back a different person. Really? And yeah. Fundamental changes. And actually. In five days. Yeah. Which nobody's more surprised than me. So I'm very, very careful about where I feel like I'll send one of my folks for help. Because there's a lot of organizations that could be bullshit, but I don't know. I'd like to have them vetted. I know Travis and I know he is who he says he is. So I've sent, I think two, if not three folks in every single person that's come back. Our first conversations, right? By the way, we're, and we talked about this at lunch today, curiosity, insight, what's actually going on. They'll have some kind of morning practice that's happening. And that's great. But what I see is that it's sticking. Even like, even six months down the road, we'll be having conversations. Something hard will come up and they'll be like, okay, what was I doing before? What's a better way to look at this? All right. Is there some kind of silver lining here? And they're thinking that through versus, oh man. This fucking guy cut me off. All I want to do is run him off the road. There's a whole different thought process. And I think we talked about it earlier. The curiosity is what's going on with them. They're exploring what's happening in real time. And that is a fundamental change for, I know for sure, at least of two people, if not a third that's gone there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I literally did call you like, what the fuck are you guys doing there, man? You're doing good work. Where does that come from, the curiosity? How are they teaching that? So that's the gaining this new perspective. Understanding. From both childhood and the professional, that it's not, you're not fucked up. It's not, this is just what happened. And so many times we take it upon, whether we're making poor choices because of what we've been through, we take on the shame, we live under that. Hey man, these are just some things happen. You've got to get out from under that. If you can do that, you're going to be light years ahead of where you were two weeks ago. And it's just a process. And I think, man, again, it's so simple. They just need to hear people that have been there and sharing the same story. And hearing the same things like, holy shit, I thought I was the only one. You know, our groups, we bring in 10 people from all different parts of the country and they sit together and they start talking about things. And we take them. I mean, it's a very structured process. Like these five days or we're moving. It's 14, 15 hours a day of training. And they just realize like, I'm not, you mean I'm not fucked up yet? No, you're not, man. These are just some things you got to understand. Like these are things that happen to everyone. Now you can take the steps together. to get on the other side of it. You know, and it's not just, you said just five days, our program, it actually starts from the day, uh, we, we actually have this video that we created. It's called rip cord and it shows a dude, the SF dude, and he's sitting in his living room waiting to hit the submit button for the application. And even that's a big step for some people to say, okay, I'm going to go somewhere to get some help. And then as soon as they do that and we have the interview with them, they're, they're in our program, meaning we are talking to them every two weeks, giving them material about post-traumatic growth, laying a foundation. So when they arrive, they're good to go. Cause some of our people, you know, have to wait five, six months to get a seat. Like my, my team right now, we're, we're scheduling into 2027. And so, but we're not going to leave you hanging for that long. We're going to work with you that whole time. Then you come to us in person. You know, we connect with them through videos, self-recorded videos. They see our faces. They know who they're going to be. You know, we just talk to them like real people. It's not robotic, you know, bullshit or just some, you know, just a tagline and an email, whatever that may be. And then they come to us and then they go home and then we get them for another 85 days. We train them. We still, every day there's daily activities. We hold them accountable. We remind them of what they committed to. And we go through this process and man, it's just really powerful. And I don't know, like everyone wants to know, like, what do you, like when he said, what do you do here? I'm like, I don't know, man. We just do our thing. Like we're, I guess we're enlightening. We're giving new perspective. We're giving them hope. I don't know that they, they can take control. All the outside influences, all the shit they've dealt with. They don't have to live under that. And like he said, I mean, our veterans and first responders come through the program, but they don't want to be where they're at. They just don't know how to get out of it sometimes. So that's the biggest thing. That's the worst. Yeah. Feeling stuck and not being able to, you're blind in a room and you can't find the door. Right. Yeah. And I just, I mean, sometimes it's, it's, it breaks my heart at times. Like you hear how they come in, but then by the time they leave us and you're like, yeah, man, like that's, it's, it's a privilege for us to work for the organization and do these things because we just get to walk alongside these people. I still feel like I'm in the fight. Like there's still times, like I missed the career a little bit. Like I, I hear things pop off and I'm like, oh man, I'd like to be a part of the incident, but that's kind of all subsided mostly. And now I'm like, man, I still get to help, you know, these people that are, they just want to get better. And if we can provide them those resources, that's what we try to do. Brandon, how long you been doing therapy now? Um, so licensed, uh, since 2021, um, I started doing, so when I went through treatment, 2013 got sober, I was doing some drug and alcohol counseling. Cause I thought, well, maybe that would, I didn't like that at all. Um, so I did that under somebody for a couple of years, but I've been in and around that space since I would say 2013. 2015, um, graduated in 2016. Um, and then I think with my, with my master's degree, you have to practice 3000 hours before you can actually test for your license. Um, and then I tested for that. So, cause I was at the combat vet center in Walla Walla and then here in Kalispell for a couple of years. And then I moved to the VA, um, and the VA has been great to me. Uh, it was great as a young clinician to grow through that. Cause there's so much, um, uh, so much support and like supervisory stuff. Like they follow everything, a letter to the law. And so for me, I think I had a really great education through there. Um, but once I got my license, I really felt stifled. I would say I just only being able to see veterans. Cause I would see veterans at like the combat vet center who also were cops. Um, and what I noticed with those guys is like, Holy cow, man, you guys are going through 10 times what our veterans are going through. Um, and for me, like, those are the most complex, I would say complex, puzzles to figure out. And I enjoy that piece. And so I think in 2021, I started my company warriors mindset, um, specifically for first responders. And then, um, I actually stumbled upon actually, and that was right before I met you, I kind of stumbled on that, uh, the retainer agreement, like, uh, concept that was through Travis Smith, who is now the patrol commander. He was the training sergeant at the time. No, Travis. Yeah. Travis 2.0. Yeah, I know too many Travis's, um, he kind of came to me. One time it was like, Hey man, uh, we're trying to get this mental health program. There was basically nothing there trying to get this thing off the ground. Not really sure what that looks like. He's like, can we do like some kind of retainer? So our guys don't have to go through insurance because the stigma of, I don't want to get diagnosed, right? Um, I don't want this to be like on an official insurance record, guys getting subpoenaed, stuff like that. Um, he's like, can we just do some kind of retainer agreement? And I said, I don't see why we could not. Um, so we ended up working through that. My lawyers went through it, uh, there, the County lawyers went through it. Um, and basically what it says is like, I will provide such and such and such like mental health training. I'll go hang out with the guys. I'll do ride alongs. I went and did, uh, the workout for Chris Duke. Um, they had a Memorial workout yesterday with the SWAT team. So I went and hung out with those, got to do that piece. Was he the two bear guy? Uh, yes. Correct. Yep. Um, so they had like a kind of CrossFit style workout for him or whatever. Um, so anyway, so I got to go hang out with those guys. So I'm spending time in and around the departments, like fairly regularly. Uh, that's. That's part of that retainer agreement. And then basically it says, you guys are going to pay me so much money per month, and I'm going to give you this many visits per month. And if somebody is, Hey man, I'm feeling a certain kind of way, they literally just pick up the phone and either, Hey man, can I come see you? Yup. Let's schedule you. Get you in done deal. No red tape, no insurance claims, none of that stuff. Um, and I will, I firmly believe that is fundamentally changed. The mental health culture, um, in Flathead County, the sheriff's office. Uh, they have their own stuff going on within the department, but the mental health in general, if you talk to any of those guys, most of those guys, they're very open, they're having, they're doing up conversations about, Hey man, how you actually doing? I know you're on a hard call. Um, supervisors are having a better view of what this looks like for my guys when they're maybe not doing well. Um, there's just a lot more free flowing conversation. Like we'll have guys as one guy's coming out of my office and other guys sitting there, they'll sit and have a talk for. Five or 10 minutes, right. Just kind of catching up and just normalizing that piece. Um, KPD is, I don't have a retainer agreement with them, but KPD is doing a great job as well. Um, but places like Pulse and I'm doing the retainer agreement with, um, Lewis and Clark County that we're having that conversation tomorrow. Um, what's that? Where's Lewis and Clark County? Helena. Helena. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever come across a sociopath and your therapy? Sure. Have, how long did it take you to identify them and tell me everything? Uh, statistically, they're very few, but I am fascinated by this type of individual. Yup. Yup. So I, I have had somebody come in, um, and when you sit in front of, and you probably know I was doing podcasting at this point, when you sit in front of thousands of people, most people present in a certain way, um, whether it's their emotional content, how they're engaging verbal, nonverbal, um, and I actually ended up talking to my mentor, Dr. Hire about this. He just presented really, really like, uh, as though there was, um, how'd you put this? Not doing a great job of faking the emotions they thought they should have. Is that. They're masks, right? Yeah. Is it essentially, again, you're the therapist here, so I don't know why I'm trying to explain this, but isn't the sociopath, they're almost incapable of feeling emotions, but they know that they're supposed to, to fit in. So they, it's as if the, instead of knives on the wall, do they say, Ooh, this is the happy empathy. Yeah. Yep. But yeah, I mean, that's insane. First off. Fair, fair, fair. But what I will say is that when you sat in front of so many people for so long, I would say the normal population, probably you might have a, like, that's a little weird, but when you sit in front of so many people for so long, when somebody presents like that, you're like, that's weird. You don't say that. You just do it in your head. And then you ask questions later. But yeah, I've had one person that was, Oh, how long has you worked with them or her? Probably about six to eight months. They had some legitimate stuff. Like they were an old school door kicker, early Iraq. Yeah. What were they doing now? Other than probably collecting human heads in jars, but not much, not much. Yeah. There was the VA disability and then also, uh, um, uh, retirement. As well. So not having to, not having to do much. Yeah. It was an interesting presentation when I, when I saw it, I was like, Oh, I think that's what I think that is. Um, then I went and talked to my, uh, mentor, Dr. Hider, who's been doing this job for like 40 years. The guy is like the master of therapy. If you could be that, um, he's been my mentor for a long time. And I said, Hey man, this is what I saw. He's like, Oh, sounds like a sociopath. You don't get too many of those around here. I was like, do they benefit from therapy? Um, I would say. Was this person there because they wanted to be, or were they volunteered? No, they wanted to be, but what I, what I would say was. Did they want to be, or they thought that they should appear to want to be. I think that there was a recognition that there's tools that they could pick up. To sharpen the blade. Correct. Yes. Sharpen the blade. Yes. This person will teach me to wear an even better mask. How creepy and terrifying is that? Yeah. They're out there among us. These skinwalkers. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It is a weird thing. You're like trying to figure out how much you want to share because, man, if I tell you that, I know you can weaponize that. So, yeah, it's weird. I don't know why I asked you that question, but I watched it. It is. I watched too many documentaries. I don't watch only sovereign citizen arrests. I tell you what, for people who claim constitutional law, they know very little about the Constitution. Oh, yeah. They're fuckers. Did you? I was assuming. Oh, I've had them, yeah. I've had them. We got to get a good story. Pulling them over and like, I don't have to have a plate. The best one is, though, when they say that and immediately the officer says, all right, step out of the vehicle. And they say no. It's just never going well beyond that. Because you can tell the officers who have dealt with it before, they're not interested in engaging in the conversation. As soon as they get the vernacular, step out of the vehicle. Oh, yeah. Because it seems like at that point, what is it, Pennsylvania versus MIMS, you have to exit the vehicle, even as a passenger as well, too. Thank you, Sergeant Curtis. There's no other case law for that. But it really cuts out a lot of the BS, the standing there and arguing over maritime law and the Black's Law Dictionary. Just get out of the car. And they say no. And then you just, OK, let's get another officer. I've never been in a vehicle where a pepper ball was deployed, but it doesn't look. It's not fun. It didn't appear to be. At least by the screams, it doesn't seem fun. Yeah, we had a dipshit in Michigan that he. I got I was I was a sergeant in Michigan. And what about the deputies called me over? It's like this guy wants to arrest me. And it's all you can do is you laugh. You're like, OK, so how is this going to work for you? Yeah. Are you where are you going to take him? Where's your hand? Yeah. Where where's jail? It's like, I don't know, but this is unconstitutional. I'm going to arrest you. Like, it's just the mindset is ridiculous. The manpower waste is tremendous. Most of the time, it's six or seven officers that end up showing up. Yeah. What's also fascinating. Is the number of repeat customers in the, quote, Supreme Court law or cases that don't exist. Yeah. Because I might have spent a lot of time looking. And they keep doing it and doing it and doing it. And the same thing happens. They end up getting their car towed. They have 17 violations for not having registered. How they're getting their car back is beyond me. It's expensive. Yeah. They do it, though. And then they just keep on driving. Keep doing it. Sorry. Traveling. Yes. Right. I'm not engaged. I'm not engaged. I don't contract with you. Yeah. What do you guys have after Helena? You guys going to work together in Montana? Are you only licensed in Montana? Correct. Yep. Yeah. We just do things in Montana. So after that, yeah. Who knows? I, you know, I'm doing most of my stuff for Boulder Crest now. I don't do a lot of the speaking like I used to, but. Do you miss it? Sometimes, man. Like, you know, it got, you know, once it becomes, this is your full-time job. I got kind of tired of making sure I'm putting shit on Instagram, making sure I'm doing this. That gets old really quick. Agreed. So I just like getting, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, in the trenches and being able to work with people that are looking for help. That's like where my passion is. So I'm going to just keep doing that for now. And yeah, I can't complain. I love public speaking, but I get to talk about leadership. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not retreading through traumatic experiences and I, and you can see the light bulb turning on for people. That's way more enjoyable than having to pick in your, and again, for people, Michael, can you look up the first time Travis was on? Cause you did a, you know, a full deep dive on that particular incident of man, having to relive that ad nauseum as well. You're almost re-traumatizing yourself. And again, I'm not a therapist, but you were shaking your head. So I feel like picking up some things. Yeah. If you haven't processed through it, you will be, I mean, there, there'll be some desensitization, right? But I, I think almost in every one of our talks, there were certain points where, yeah, I felt it. Yeah. Yeah. But now, you know, I used to be, I was in a sense, pissed that I had to be a part of that stuff, but now my new perspective, like I'm thankful that was me. Like every one of those pieces along the way brought me to sit even right here today. That's everything. So that's kind of some of the new perspective we try to allow people like, Hey, I can't change it. So I might as well use it for something. Yeah. And you know, it gives me strength and new perspective and yeah, doing what we can. Well, we can, but when was that two 50? Yeah. Look at that beard, man. Two 51. Yeah. It was thick. It was headsets. Man. We're so in the past. All that is. Yeah. It's a tactical. Yeah. Episode two 51. Yeah. I ain't worried. When was it? In 2022. I don't know. So I was looking at, Oh yeah. September 19th. Holy shit. Michael, don't you dare circular move that mouse like that to try to jump my over here. Man. Yeah. That tries to exert power control over me. I get it back. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. It's been that long, but. Oh, you've been on in between then too. Yeah. Yeah. But that one, I have a point. That was the first one. Yeah. You went, I would say that's not a driving the kids to school. No, absolutely not. Or picking them up. That's going to be adult content. Yeah. That was heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But man, I appreciate you. Like you gave, yeah. Just giving us this voice to try to help, you know, and I think it's helped us. What else can any of us do? I know. That's all we can. Yeah. What else can anybody do? Yeah. And try to impact the world around them in a positive. Yeah. That's all I want to do with the rest of my life. Right. And I don't know how, and I don't care actually anymore either. Yeah. Because I think if that's the North star and what it is that you're trying to do, you'll, you'll figure it out. Things, doors open. Yeah. Yeah. Opportunities. Conversations. Even, I mean, I used to be one like, yeah, when I'd go to airports, I hated talking to people. Now I'll sit down in a seat and who knows, like you, you never know who's sitting next to you. What kind of conversation it helps you again, learn more about others. And understand like, man, I don't have the fricking, uh, you know, the patent on trauma. Like people have been through some shit and it's, our world is crazy, you know? So it's just, it's good for us. And it makes you, you know, if you can share some new perspective and give some enlightenment and maybe help someone take one step that they weren't going to take, then what more can you ask for? Brandon, do you ever worry about getting injured and neither needing to be sedated or put on pain meds again? It's a great question. Um, because that, I mean, I don't, you know, some things in life hurt real, real bad and you got to go to the hospital and the pain isn't instantaneously removed. I'm just curious what that, how that would fit into your spectrum. Yeah. So at this point I have, have not at all. Um, I've had some pretty gnarly stuff happen. Um, and what I've found by and large is that I can, I can deal with the pain if I had, if, you know, if I had a compound fracture, that might be a little bit different. Um, I've had some. Um, some pretty shitty things happen over the last 13 years. Um, I haven't taken anything yet. There's, I know I had a wisdom tooth removed and, and you know, the dentist didn't know, but it had like little hooks at the bottom. Like it would need to be in there. Super secure. Like my tooth did. Yeah. I don't know. It was just like really hooked in her. And so he was like drilling on my tooth for like an hour and a half and he got done and he had to like drill away part of my jawbone and he's like, okay, here's the deal. It's going to hurt really bad. I had to zip away. Like just a, they had a sliver of, but you know, but basically we saw it into your jawbone. Were you on at least Novocaine at this point or all the canes? Yep. All the canes. Yeah. Um, and he's like, well, here's a prescription of, I don't know, Oxy or something. And this was probably two years after I was sober. He's like, here's a prescription. I said, no, I appreciate it, man. I'll be okay. And ripped it up, gave it back to him. And, uh, that was a rough couple of days, rough couple of days. What? So, you know, fast forwarding, you've been free and clear for a while now, knowing your self, what do you think would happen if you had to have a major surgery with follow-on pain medication? Do you think you would be able to manage it better? I, oh, for sure. So I would say in the first, probably five to eight years, we probably would have just jumped right back on the train and like full speed ahead. Um, I really, truly feel like I'm living the life that I want to live and I have zero interest in escaping it. And that's what a lot of that was before. I would say almost all of it. I have zero interest in escaping it. None. Like I. I love what I'm doing, the goods, the bads, the hards, the easy stuff. Um, I have no interest in escaping what my current reality is. Um, if there was something that was just absolutely, holy cow, man, like something just catastrophic. Um, what I'd probably do is just be like, Hey wife, here's these, no matter what happens one a day, I'll figure it out. Um, like I said, I've been through some pretty gnarly stuff and the amount of pain that you can endure when you know, that's kind of your option. Pretty high that I don't know about for everybody, but I know it is for me. Um, I do a lot of meditation and breath work. When I had that jaw thing, there was a lot of meditation going on, just like calming my nervous system down. Cause the pain was so crazy. Um, but figure it out. How much have you shared with your children about what you went through? Um, none, zero. How old are they now? Um, 17, 15. And then my younger two, they're still my daughters, but their stepdaughters, 13 and 10. You know, this goes on the. I was. I was. I was just going to say, okay. Did we think this? We're going to go ahead and erase the first 90 minutes of the episode. So he didn't think about it until just now Tuesday. Oh, yeah. This thing on what's why, why, why, why haven't you talked with them at all about it? Just out of curiosity. No judgment in that. Oh, no, no, no, no, not at all. Um, I think that I want them to see me for the person that I am right now. Microphone in front of your mouth. - Take it with you. There you go. - Here we go. I want them to see me person that i am now and then that'll give them context because i feel like when i open up that for them i'm gonna open it yeah i don't i don't not much of a sprinkler like oh here's a little here what ages are they again uh 17 15 13 and 10 those are also the ages though where they might be getting exposed to this stuff for the first time and again non non-professional opinion here who you are now is based off of what you've worked your way through 100 you have one of the more powerful stories that you could impart on your kids that could help them make a better decision in a critical moment so i'm not advocating for or against i was just curious well and i haven't specifically kept that away like if you would ask them they would have no context for who i am now versus uh versus wow what kind of life did you lead like 15 20 years ago yeah um and they ask oh you know how is the military the basic stuff like that and i just give them the gloss answer on that um but at some point it will inevitably come out and i'm not hiding from it i've never shied away from it um i've been always very open about that piece um when they discover it they can discover when we can have that conversation i feel like i'm still continuing to build my body of work as like a father and i feel like that'll allow them to have a better understanding once they do open that book yeah yeah i'm just trying to think about it from the perspective of being a kid looking at up at my parent which all children do to a degree i mean i remember the ages where i thought my parents knew everything i was looking forward to getting that book one day the book of everything now as a parent i realized my parents much like myself knew basically nothing and we're doing the absolute best they could every single winging it winging it on the daily yep i'm still waiting for that through binder maybe i must misplace somewhere have you guys gotten issued yours i haven't it didn't come my way it would uh i've tried to be really open and honest with my kids about my mistakes no i don't have a background like yours when it comes to the substance addiction i would share it with them man yeah before they find it on their own i i and i and i say that i'm trying to put myself back at that age thinking that my parents have it all figured out and being impressed with who they are and what they had accomplished and then knowing that they had actually had to rebuild it so from that it is incredibly powerful oh versus that idea like the perfect like perfection as you see your parent right well even that you even when you think that they are perfect your kids are all at an age where i'm going to spoiler alert here they've realized you're not perfect yeah i think it's not cool at all oh i am the most uniquely uninteresting person to all of my kids yeah except for my middle son who saw that i was on the humor boom podcast and listened to it not he was huberman and then he called me and said you described my social media usage as slightly inaccurate i was like thank you for the feedback son i also love you too don't worry your college tuition will be on time i did hear that he you know what he actually said is he had to change it he does he no longer is even really participating in it he used to be able to he was the one that like he downloads it yeah he does it and then erases it he's had to stretch it out now even though i'm included on your group with him the no andy's group i'm convinced he still has it because it's constant that's what i was gonna say so potentially he's on it all potentially he's a liar you know he's not on as much as most people but he said he actually had to remove himself from it even more because he found he was getting drawn back into that yeah but uh yeah man i wouldn't i wouldn't hide the blemishes because i think it's a bad thing no that's not the correct word it's not especially if you are reinforcing to your kids i'm perfect i have everything figured out which i'm not saying you're doing but we all know people who do act like that and it sets this perception for a child that when they fall short they're left in this but well what's wrong with me what why do you have you know what i mean this comparison again i don't know food for thought i would as a child if my father had gone through that i would want to know it would it would reinforce that you aren't what happens to you and you can 100 build yourself back beyond that and be even better than you were before i thought about it from that perspective that's a great perspective actually yeah i've been incredibly open with my boys yeah yeah i mean it's kind of funny you don't have to overshare yeah you don't have to i'm assuming that i'm assuming that you were taking heroin anally so you can leave that out yeah we don't have to get in i mean just knowing you as i do you're over there just you know doing a handstand in the corner the pez dispenser it's different i gotta stop because this is just gonna get worse it's gonna get worse michael said what type of pez and i'll say the bubble gum man of course but it's uh yeah i mean food for thought man i don't think there's any there's any right or wrong for sure god parenting is so it's hard it's wild yeah i i don't know if my ledger is anywhere on the success side i still feel like it's on the the failure side yeah and i think maybe that's the way too i'm not sure i think everyone goes i mean i hear you talk about it all the time but yeah i i feel miserably at time with the boys and then other times you do really well and you just try to figure it out man because my parents didn't have it all figured out i had some shitty examples yeah and but that's some of that perspective too sometimes you blame well this and that but we're all going through it you know you talk about i i've i'd say the day that i learned like my mom for instance like she wasn't perfect like oh shit yeah mom had some stuff too yeah you know and that's a big eye opener so that's how i try to live now is hey i'm gonna tell the boys like this is this is how it is but you learn from your mistakes and keep going yeah i tell people all the time and i've read about it in the book too you're not responsible for what happens to you yeah but you are responsible for what you do with it yes and some of the most impactful things in my life that have changed the way that i look at things were bad examples which is not an excuse for people to be pieces of and be really clear with that it's amazing what people will hear yeah they're not listening but that's what they hear they hear me say that and they go you got it i'm like you're not you heard the noises from my vocal cord you were not listening to what i was trying to say yeah if it was only good examples man i don't think they'd have the impact of power yeah yeah having said that don't be a douche don't be just as general life advice it's a good consensus what's been the most surprising thing to you being a counselor that maybe you weren't expecting going into it also three thousand hours is a tremendous amount yeah that's a mentorship time yeah not a fan um but was it beneficial were you did you feel prepared to do the job if you're given the right supervision i think three thousand hours is an appropriate amount before you sit in front of somebody like hey let's like let's uh let's dabble with your life a little bit right um if the supervision is correct i think it's enough and if it's not it may not be enough i think it's quality of supervision again but three thousand hours is a lot yeah um but but i think useful uh the most surprising thing is a therapist is it as rewarding as you thought it would be yes i would say one the most surprising thing as a therapist is people's willingness once you make a human connection with them what they're willing to talk to you about wild stuff like from the bottom of the soul stuff we're talking like cucumbers what are we talking about i'll let you extract um yeah people's willingness to just hey here's everything and sometimes everything is a lot do you ever worry about being traumatized by other people's trauma 100 how do you manage that um so i have my own therapist um and i check in every couple months is this a pyramid scheme yep you got to be the one on top so that's why i'm headed towards it not only do i see people but i'm also seen by people is this run by the illuminati master therapist somewhere it's really rich it's on the dollar bill it's the time that triangle oh that's right yeah yeah yeah um i often think about this because much like first responders are often physically exposed to that trauma there is i would have to imagine having never been on the receiving end of it uh of as the person doing the therapy i mean people probably aren't spending a lot of time telling you about the best day and the best birthday party they ever had and their most amazing christmas so although probably less sticky than physically being thrown in front of that and rushing to it with you know flying code shredding get to something and then boom there you are presented with it but the volume of stuff you must hear has got to be tremendous it is tremendous i think when you're sitting in front of somebody most people won't when they're talking about their traumas and everything that's happening they don't protect how much energy is actually going out right like you're in front of something they're just like oh this and then this and this and you're basically eating it like i you know they're eating it they're eating it they're there's that term the sineater right um and i feel like as a therapist if you're truly sitting here connected with that person and you're listening to them and you're very attentive and you're connected with what's happening, you're eating, you're sharing some of that load that when they leave that office and they go, man, okay, I feel a little better. Somebody picks it up, right? And it's usually the person in front. Um, the average for a trauma therapist, the average, uh, career, at least when I graduated was two and a half years. Um, you can only eat so much if you don't learn to let it go, learn to not take some of that stuff in. And when it does come in, what do I do? What are my tools? Right? Like I love bow hunting. Um, I spent a lot of time fishing. I spent a lot of time in the mountains. Um, there's things that I do that, you know, jujitsu, right? Um, I do, I'm there quite a bit because when I'm there, right, I get a physical movement. My brain is, it's my, it's my relax. I roll with you all the time. You overthink every single thing that you do. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. So you're not, you're not sitting there just zenning out. I can almost watch you like mimic, you know, like if I do this, then perhaps he will do that. But also if I were to do this, then perhaps he would do that. So I will just stand here frozen for 30 seconds. This is literally what you do. You, there's you and about two other people. That is exactly what happens. And my brain is cooking the whole time. Like, I know if I grab this, he's going to grab me. He'll sit here. This is what he does. Ready? That's a fact. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, what do you do? Is the clock not running? Cause my back, you're like, what's, what's going on? I don't know if you've ever been grabbed a hold of by Andy, but it is like a giant Python that's talking shit to you while it squeezes you to death the whole time. Okay. The whole time. Okay. Yeah. I think it was a pretty good analogy. I would change some of the words you use. Like you were saying you receive other people's loads. Just, you know, I would say perhaps you help them. Unload their burden. I'm just, I mean, use whatever words you want. I'm not going to sit here and say, I'm not fucked up. As soon as you said that I had to control myself and not interrupt you and be like, Whoa, words matter. Words matter. No, I train with you. You're sitting, he got, he, you can see the nuclear reactor trying to spin them. Like, how do I split this Adam? Because there's no crack in that with you, man. Your guard is so ridiculous. I've been at this a little longer than you. Yep. And I'm not going to, make you stand up, but the table would be to your armpits. Fair enough. Fair enough. There's a height and weight discrepancy here too. And this isn't an abnormally large table for that's fair. Yeah. Well, even your sound guy beats the brakes off me. Michael's quite good. I know he hasn't trained in quite some time though. He's considered quitting. I, yeah, I hurt my shoulder for the audience listening. Was it at jujitsu? It was at rugby actually. Oh, second catastrophic. Injury in rugby. I've heard about it. It wasn't catastrophic, but I was there. And so was Michael actually when Ross lost the usage of his Achilles. And that was honestly kind of freak. Like that wasn't a, yeah. You know, the mistake he made stepping back. No. Well, yes. The mistake he made was telling everybody, this will be my last game that he ever played. And then he said, you know what? When am I ever going to play rugby again? This is probably going to be it. And 30 minutes later, we carried him to a car. I had to drive his truck home for him. Did you guys remind him that that was in fact his last game? I probably did. You know me well enough. Yeah. He's a nightmare on the mats. That dude is huge and strong. Yeah. He's like a Jaguar. He's very crafty in the movie. I don't know what that means. He's a big dude that moves very fluidly and very fast and well. Is that what Jaguars are known for? Yeah. I fought a couple in my time. Have you? No. I read it in a book. Okay. So you have tools. I think that's important. At the top of that pyramid though, what is the Illuminati therapist? Who does he talk to? I'm pretty sure that's Gandhi. Because you get to the apex, the all seeing eye on the dollar bill. He's just responsible for you and all, I guess. I don't know. I feel like if you, what, obviously we're joking, but that person probably has some pretty good tools along the way. Yeah. Do you ever experience vicarious post-traumatic growth? Like by when you see the big wins? I don't know if I would identify it directly at that, but what I will tell you is when people are very much in that growth mindset and they're working on their own problem solving, if something fits a puzzle piece with me, I will a lot of times be like, oh, okay. Well, think about that. Or I might do that. It doesn't have to be the one way. I've gotten a lot of stuff from having conversations and people. I've got a couple of guys who are just really, really, really smart and very intellectual and they don't want to get you in trouble a little bit, but they will go down some rabbit holes. And sometimes I'll pull some stuff off them too. I'm like, oh, I should have thought about it that way. Okay. Yeah. How do you have your room set up? Are they on a couch? They are on a couch. Super comfortable couch. Are they laid back? No, that'd be weird. Do you have, uh, are you in like a expensive leather chair with an Ascot and a vest? I got a shitty, like Office Depot, squishy little chair that goes back and forth like that. I'm not that fancy. Do you have a notebook in front of you? No. No, no. So when I first asked you, what the hell do therapists write? Because they're not always writing, but they're just like a few things. Yeah. Well, when I first started at the Vet Center, I used to do that. And there was this lady named Maureen and she asked me, I'd been doing it for maybe like six months and somebody would say something. And what I'm writing down is, is like a key word or phrase. So when I'm doing my notes, I can like, oh, that's unpacked from that. And I can kind of extrapolate my notes. That shit crazy. Yeah. Like do not see this person again. And she was like, Hey man, you, if you do that, you know, that, that everybody's just going to be looking at you while you're doing that. And it's going to throw off the vibe of the room. Oh, they'll notice when you do start writing and when you aren't. Yes. Yep. And there's like a potential judgment piece. And so from that day, I just stopped and how I, how I kind of categorize people. My buddies said this a long time ago. And for me, I think it fits as I basically I have people in, in like boxes or bubbles. So when they walk into my room, um, as we sit down, I basically have like a whoop, this is, this is them and their time and their experience. And I remember probably 90, 95% of everything that we kind of talk about. Um, and then as they leave, I kind of like close that bubble and they go and the next person comes in. How much time do you have in between? Well, I'm supposed to have 10 minutes. Some people love the long talk. And so like, they'll go like one minute or two minutes beforehand. And those are hard when I get like three or four of those in a row, um, that's really hard. I bet. Cause when I, when I'm doing my notes, I will verbally dictate my notes and that's also me processing that. And there's usually three to five minutes, get some water, get a little bit of snack and just take a couple deep breaths. I can, I will feel after a hard session, I will feel it in my, in my chest and in my shoulders. Like, oh man, that was a lot. And if you have back to back and back of those, that's hard. I'll see anywhere between like seven and nine people in a day, but I will do, I do a three full days, two hours of jujitsu in between that though. Um, which is like a half of them in the morning, jujitsu, half of them in the evening. I do that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and then I do a half a day on Friday. So I'm working as much time on as I am off. And it's me 28 to 32 people, which is a decent amount, but I also have three and a half days. The rest of that day is usually, whew, probably just gonna chill out, relax a little bit. And then usually by Friday morning, I'm like, all right, cool. Let's get after it. Sweet. Yeah. I dig it. Yeah. What else do you guys wanna add? Otherwise I'll let you enjoy your Montana day. Obviously each of you need to explain where people can find you. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, as far as, um, I have an Instagram, uh, my underscore dot arena and then yeah, boulder crest foundation, boulder crest, uh, dot org boulder crest foundation.org is where you can find it. If you're interested in applying for warrior path or look for struggle well programs, or we have a bunch of other resources and things. On there as well. So sweet. Yeah. About you, brother. Can I give a quick caveat? Um, of course, where, where are we going? Oh, yeah. Um, earlier we kind of spoke on the, you know, do cops kind of envision what they're gonna do after they retire. Um, and when they don't basically, they just goes right in the shitter. Well, I don't think we can, I mean, I, I could ask Travis about, and that's why I said, did probably depend via department. He can speak to his experience in Mesa. I bet you there's a bunch of cops out there who are thinking about it. I am just curious how much they do in my old job. It wasn't frowned upon, but it wasn't promoted. And most of the people wanted you talking about what it is that you were doing, which you can get behind the eight ball. And that's why I asked, I was just curious about it. And the experience that I've had kind of across the board for those guys that are 15 plus, if you ask those guys, nobody will tell you. Nobody has an answer. Hey, I got 19 years. What are you gonna do? Oh, I don't know. I might do a couple more. I can add my retirement legitimately looking at it would be my question. Yeah. Which is problematic. Yeah. Yeah. What I will say is that, and this is for anybody who is in that about 17 year, about three years to two years before like the two year mark, you really need to start getting after it is trying to figure out like what life looks like on the other side of that. I've had a couple guys retire. Like I, I started seeing them right before they retired and it was, it was just a really big struggle bus. I've had about a half a dozen guys now over the last four or five years that I've caught them about the 18 year mark. And so much of our conversation was future planning. What are we gonna do? How do we transition out of this career into another one, what things need to be in place. And it's questions they just never ask each other. It's not world changing, but it's these poignant questions and conversations that you're having. And those guys have done significantly well. Jason, we talked about him. He's very open about that. I caught him about a year and a half before and really, really struggling. Just talked to him recently. Dude's doing great, but he did a ton of career planning for himself. Like this is what I need to do when I get out to the point where, and for the next month, when I get out, not doing fuck all, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to. And that's awesome too. Yeah. To plan that for yourself. Yeah. You got a contingency. It's essentially a contingency plan. And if you don't put any thought into it, you're going to feel like you're squeezed into a crisis. And that's why you contingency plan is you try to answer the what ifs before you get into a crisis, because then it's just a branch diagram. If this happens, Oh, I'm going to do this. If that happens. Yeah. So much bandwidth in mental horsepower is, is reduced when you do it that way. You can survive the other one, but I'm here to tell you as somebody who's experimented with both, I really enjoy the planning of the deliberate planning process a lot more than crisis management without any planning going into it. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think a big thing is just finding purpose because if you've been in this life of service for that long, it's, it's a part of you. And I think people, you know, even me, part of the reason moving up to Montana when I did, I was like, yeah, I'm going to leave society and bury my head up in the mountains and take it easy. Unabomber who also was, but yeah, I think if you can find purpose and you know, whatever that may be, it doesn't have to be something big and be, Hey, I'm going to take care of my family and I'm going to live life and enjoy it. Like at least you have something, but define it. Don't just fucking float through every day. That's the big two. A lot of times people will talk about the identity, which is very true. But even if you have a good handle on that, if you came from a job that you felt or feel has a lot of purpose, and then you no longer have that, you have to solve both of those. Yeah. Oftentimes it's they're separate conversations or one is forgotten. And depending on where you're coming from, maybe it's not an issue, but if you have a job like that, where the uniform you hang up largely, you tied your identity to, and you consult like fantastic, you're still going to have that, that massive hole you have to fill with the purpose. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. We just had a veteran come through and he was just struggling. He had a warrant officer, I think in the Marine Corps and he knew he needed to find purpose and he just didn't have a lot. Well, his mom had struggled really bad with Alzheimer's. So he just went down and started volunteering at a local center with Alzheimer's. And he is like a changed person. Cause he said, you know, I, this brings me back to the things I went through with my mom and seeing all these people sitting there, they don't have anyone to talk to. They just want to communicate. I mean, that's given him purpose and he's loving it, man. Like that's huge. It's just those little steps can change your life. I think people often lie to themselves and say it has to be a galactic. It has to be huge. And I think some people can find their way into that, but I feel like they would be the anomaly for most people. They don't know what to do. I think at least a starting point is look around, give back, go coach a kid's sport, give back in your local community. You will be shocked how enriching that actually is. It is, man. Yeah. And if we, yeah, that's another thing we try to do, but I've seen too many of our people, they just, they off ramp and they're like, now what do I do? Yeah. And they sit there and drink themselves. Those are the death or whatever, but there's more to it and we can, we can do better. Yeah. So yeah, man. Where can people find you, Brian? Do we cover your caveat? That was the caveat. I think we nailed it. Okay. Yep. The Instagram's warriorsmindsetllc. Damn, throwing the LLC in the username. Very profesh. What I would say, thank you. What I would say is that for people, like whether that's therapists or administrations who have interest in what that retainer model looks like and having therapists integrated into their actual departments. If people want to reach out regarding that, I would be happy to have some of those conversations and help people navigate that. It took me a while to navigate it, but it's a great model. And it's working. I know unequivocally it's working. I can talk to the guys and they'll tell you. It's a great way to, to bypass some of the bullshit with the insurance and stuff. Sweet. You guys talk tomorrow? In Helena? We do. Right on. Well, good luck with that. Cool. I hope it is well received. Right on. Appreciate it. Thanks, man.