From the Plate to the Brain: The Neuroscience of Taste and Harmony: Dr. Peter Klosse.

But the magic happens when there is a huge overlap in what the Profile the taste profile of the wine is and the taste profile of the dish And if that overlaps and works together then you get a harmonious feeling and harmonious combinations are also proven by By your science and your aesthetics if harmony happens then the brain lags that Sit back and grab a glass. It's wine talks with all caves Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. We are in studio today in beautiful Southern California But to have a conversation with the Peter Klaasay Klaasay. They say that right is that is that that's Not your name it's a Dutch name I'm not chef And so there's no accent on the e that as a French word would be for the a part class a Yeah, okay Klaasay Peter Klaasay is not just a chef. He's one of the most influential thinkers in modern gastronomy as the founder of the Academy of gastronomy and a pioneer in the scientific understanding of taste is dedicated as creatures are answering a deceptively simple question Why do certain foods and wines works so well together? Is work bridges the gap between the kitchen and the mind exploring how flavor, texture and perception come together to create a meaningful culinary experience? You know, we were just talking about after I failed to put turn on the record button and I I conveyed the story about sitting in Paris and looking over the Eiffel Tower and and getting this waft of this Keish that was I ordered and it took me back 50 years to my mother's Keish because it was identical and You were spotted with this idea of a definition between Tasting and the idea of taste. So let's let's start with that because I think this is an interesting definition My approach has always been that we should try to find fundamental answers And if you want to have fundamental answers you need to distinct or make a distinction between Subjective and objective because subjective is of course a personal experience It is you or it's your mother or it's where you are or it's very much influenced by by circumstances and Taste we could Think taste or define taste as a product definition as a product quality So for me the definition of taste is a product quality as soon as you do that you bring it into the objective world and You accept or acknowledge that taste is the result of molecules or Proteins or carbohydrates and fats and all kinds of things that we can measure and that has been the basis of finding answers That will were previously hard to answer because then if it's all subjective you believe tastes as personal Then it's very hard to say anything about taste really and then you fall back on General beliefs culture has always been done like that and things like that. Well, that's the interesting part in that but It fails on screen fundamental It's an interesting part of the wine trade as well and that most Let's say novices is people that are entering into the trade or into the subject the academic subject for the first time They're generally tell you it's all subjective and my response usually is it's subjective to the extent of which we like and don't like but it's not subjective to properly made wine that's reflective of the terraris etc And then you can agree to go forward with the idea that there are Structurally important things with wine and I would suspect with food as well Who? That's exactly what the distinction that I'm referring to as well Then you can go on with that and say within even the wine education and research the Part of the aromas has been much over exaggerated and a taste part the solid part if you want to chemically Has been very much. Let's say almost neglected We talk about sweet and sour and bitter as tastes, but not as substances. So this argument about the tongue Right where the receptors are on the sides and then the front and in the back and each one represents a different Like you said bitterness sweetness saltiness or is it that the tongue has Receptors all over that can detect virtually everything and certainly the tongue does much much much more than we always thought So they're all also much more receptors and types of receptors that we believed But that is also a part of tasting and even there the personal influence starts because We don't have similar saliva flows. We don't have to say a Mount of receptors so there can be many many already personal deviations there For me you can even go Beyond and even go back further to the product and analyze a the wine analyze the the the fluid and say okay What is in there and then you are with it with the acidities and the sugars and the alcohols and Many other things that are all measurable and are all real My contention is always you pour 20 glasses out of a bottle You give those to 20 people and 20 people will respond differently on the wine, but the wine is the same So I'd like to talk about the wine and I'd love to talk about what the Can we find words can we find concepts can we find a new way of addressing what the wine is so that We have a something that's a a a shared knowledge on what it is and Then we can relate to the differences between people Okay, so that that addresses a huge part of the Descriptions of wine like for instance the generation the Gen Zs right now even the millennials at the time We're talking about changing the the language of wine My father spoke a different language when they came to describe it one than I do and you know He's part of the Michael Broadband generation and so and I always found this fascinating that people would change the language to the extent that I'm not gonna know if you if you change it for the Gen Zs and the book Baby we won't start gonna understand what you're talking about and and it's just gonna continue the same cycle But you're saying let's get back to the wine itself and find the things that Obviously part of the wine itself and not a human description. Let's make it much more simple as well We've made the the whole taste world is hugely complicated by By these conventions and by the other culture and we we we use well Very extensive Descriptions for wine or food or dish or chef So suppose we could bring that back to really easy to understand concepts that people can relate to That's my my idea Do you think that the way it's handled today and it's obviously a very slow moving needle here to do these kinds of things the wine has been around for thousands of thousands of years But do you think that that adds to the aristocracy of wine? Why why people are intimidated by wine because of these descriptors and because of the Periodicals and the ratings and the things that people don't understand when they read it Oh, yeah Yeah, and then we also make it very complicated by making it very regional So now if you encounter a new wine from a new region and familiar to you Then the traditional view is that we should look into the region should go there and know the river the mountain the The air the ground the soil or whatever the rape for idle Suppose that could all be let's say abolished say of course It's nice to go to Slovenia or to to Armenia to yeah, I don't know where but but that's of course beautiful But suppose that it wouldn't be necessary to do it and just be a stay with the basics business a Contracting coating drying wine with a certain intensity no matter where comes from how did you get started to One of the when did this question into your mind as a chef? You're preparing foods you're you're realizing the balance you know, there's that book fat salt heat Which has been a great book for me to cook Well, it's been understand the chemistry of of the interactions of food But this come about in your mind like I got I got to figure this out I to go for my father's response It had a mission in star And I was trained let's say academically and I had an MBA business administration And then my father said well if you want to take over the restaurant it would be nice if you also understand the kitchen So then I did some working periods in at the two and three star restaurants in France and Belgium And that really opened my my my eyes for the complexity of let's say the kitchen and what it is that's real chefs do and I really love that I never was a professional chef as leader of the kitchen, but I got call myself a customer not so I tried to understand what's happening on the plate and in a glass, etc And when I to go for the restaurant then I got intrigued by these questions. Why do we serve this wine with this dish? My father also did his own wine imports and they have a lot of relations with their very famous also wine people in France So I inherited this this culture and Then in practice I asked real questions on why and then nobody could answer those so I started to be intrigued by that Then I by chance got involved with an academic research of a junior university on taste really. And that developed new concepts and new words and those words, well they took a part of my life away or at least gave me a new life and academic life with research on taste and I kept on going trying to figure out how it works and ultimately that developed into a model and in a PhD and in professorships and then writing books about that and all that. It started with asking real questions on real subjects. Why? It has the public, the public restaurant tour, not the average person that attends a restaurant. How do they receive this concept? Other than you're going to present a meal and you're going to present a wine and these are scientifically paired, is that what the concept is? It's scientifically grounded but it also has this human touch of course. So it's not an atlas B is a sea so now you're happy. The other way around. I try to understand my mission is understanding a liking. So if you have, if you understand liking much better, if you have a deeper understanding of liking, then you use science to be able to satisfy the guest in his experience. So the mission is liking and understanding liking. That was part of it. To answer the other question, how do people receive it? People receive it very well because what they receive and what they experience is, "Hey, I often heard that. I have the same wine at home where I drink this often but here it tastes better." I think the greatest compliment that you can get, that people experience that the quality of what they are drinking is different and better than they normally experience. Let's peel that back a little bit because when I spent 35 years in the direct to consumer market and I've spent a lot of, a lot of people to Europe and get a phone call. I would get phone calls literally from somebody sitting on the table side at the Parthenon having a Traitoria glass of wine and asking me if I can get it for them. Then they come home and they receive it, same vintage, same bottle, everything. They say it doesn't taste the same. My street language comment would be asked because you're not in front of the Parthenon on vacation with a whole set of stress relief and the kids aren't pulling on your shirt tails trying to do their homework. You're trying to get the same experience or bring it back. How does that, what have you peeled back in that regard? How does that change what you actually think you're tasting? Is that the point in the question? Well, trying to think it's here to give you a proper answer. It is maybe not what you think you're tasting. It's the, that's the natural experience that is a result of doing things right and doing things right, starting with the real basis. What is it? I mentioned three concepts in mouthfeel, trying, contracting and coating. The same words can also be applied to dishes and where the magic happens is when the taste profile of a beverage wine mostly and a dish have something in common. So in mouthfeel, there should be, let's say, a similarity in contracting, coaching and drying. So if the dish is more contracting, don't know why it needs to be contracting. If the dish is coating, then the wine needs to be coating. We can talk a little bit more about what contracting, coaching and drying is later. But the magic happens when there is a huge overlap in what the profile, the taste profile of the wine is and the taste profile of the dish. And if that overlaps and works together, then you get your harmonious feeling and your brain, except that as a very harmonious combination and harmonious combinations are also proven by your science and your aesthetics. If there is a, if harmony happens, then the brain likes that. So the, the, the, the, the response of liking happens in the brain when there is an experience of harmony. And this harmony theory is the basis of good pairing. So it's, it's going to be my ability to receive this concept. So you, you've scientifically taken these elements and we'll talk about those now actually. And we have 20 people in the room, you're serving the same dish with the same wines. You must be getting 20 different conversations out of that same pairing. But to you, there's a scientific basis for it. Yeah. Well, what, what happens is of course that as soon as we first agree on what the beverage is, the wine is, is more contracting and coaching has a certain intensity and has a fresh flavor flavor, flavor, flavor structure. So the aromatics and intensity and mouth feel are the three dimensions that we're talking about. What 20 people can agree on is, okay, I agree that this is a contracting wine. I agree with the intensity and I agree this is fresh. Then on the liking side, you get preferences. Some people like contracting more than coaching and some people like trying more than coaching. So the preferences of people are easily distinguishable as soon as you have also concepts for to understand tasting much better. As soon as when I know from somebody, we did that with taste test that we had an app to, to be able to figure out the preferences of people. If I know of a certain person that he has a, let's say, a liking for coaching, then I can find a beverage that's coding for that person and I can also tune my dish more to coding to get a better experience for that person who likes coding more than contracting. It becomes managerial if you want, if you, if you have the good concepts, if you have concepts that are relatable, easy to understand and objective, then it becomes possible to mix, to find the right balance between what a product has, what a combination gives and what a person likes. It's very interesting because I know exactly what my wife likes and I don't know why and this, and I think what you're getting to is that we can start to define why that's the case because I can, I can hide a Sera through the bottle label. So she doesn't know that she's trying to taste Sera, but she will catch me virtually 90% of the time when I pour her a Sera based wine with us from France or Central Coast of California. She turns her nose up at it. I have another friend who is a board of a rival girl as well as I know what kind of residual sugar she likes, at least, you know, broad spec, you know, broad range of what she likes. And she will quite often text me an image of the wine list at a restaurant, particularly in New York or something, saying, what do I like here? And so what I'm getting out of this conversation so far is that you're going to be able to define for me the next level of that, of my understanding of her what she likes. Yeah, because I just did it through experience and pouring and pouring and pouring until it until it didn't happen. How do chefs respond to this concept? I mean, in the kitchen, they're preparing these meals. They're some are high end, some are three star Michelin stars, one star or whatever. And are they responding to the chemistry of this? Or they say this is all sort of gray area? My experience, they're responding very positively. I have this Academy for Customs Me, which is a training institute for chefs and for sommegades. And in our country, this vision on food has been very widely adopted. So the books that I write are used in education are used widely. So there are many also in the three star and two and three star high end Michelin, but also aspiring new restaurants that are using this vision all over the place. So it's very, very easy to apply in practice. And as soon as chefs become two chefs later with something else as well, but as soon as they see that what this offers to them is an understanding to making people happy, then of course they will be silly not to use it. But of course there is a type of chef and that is a thing that is the extra remark that needs to be made in regard to chefs more so than two sommegades. But in chefs there is a category that has very strong beliefs. And of course they keep on standing for their long belief for a long time. In my experience, and we have seen beautiful experiences with the long standing three star in Holland is the Libre. And Teresa, the sommelier of honor is very early, let's say a pupil of me of my school. And her 43 deceased husband was also very fond of the idea. And they have applied it always and always said to their trainees and their people go to that school and go learn that because that really helps you in understanding the business. So That has been very much adopted in our country. I've seen it help also, I've done workshops in, for instance, in China, in Korea. And I see that the same vision is also applicable in other cultures as well. So, yes, it does work. I would love to see it maybe. You can help me in broadening the idea and helping much more. I'm just using this idea. Well, you've brought in a lot of thoughts here. And I've studied food. One of my favorite authors in America is Paul Friedman, who oddly is a professor of Ph.D. at a Yale. But his, in his subject of teaching at Yale is a medieval servitude. But his passion is food in America. And he's written quite interesting stories and I've read them all. Do you think then that the poise and the twag rose and the scoffiers understood this maybe not scientifically or chemistry wise, but understood it from the standpoint of preparation and what felt good to them, what tactile references they had to make. And it just was part of their innate ability to cook. I worked with Swabbo for a while. So, in my learning periods, Swabbo was one of my, but the restaurant's where I was able to work. And I know that from very personal experiences involved, the great chefs, but also great wine makers. They do things, they do it deeply well. They didn't know what they need to do. And if I get one remark from chefs, they saw some of the great ones they often say to me. Of course you're right, but I always work like this. So, I think that's also a sign of a great theory. A great theory does not invent something new. It explains why things work. So, the great chefs, they know how things work. And now they have concepts and now they have words and now they have a theory that makes it understandable. But that will need it to be around. It was not an invention. It was around before. Now we know that it turns well. If you understand the metaphor. It seems like that. I didn't go up. It seems like that's bridging the science and the art and the sense of, you know, you probably had it a thousand times. You have a meal and you go, "Wow, that just didn't work." You know, that just didn't happen. And I think that's just lack of understanding what you were digging deep into figure out. But it's one of the unifying factors. And this comes from, I told you my daughter is a French-Chain baker. She's worked at the Michelin Star restaurants. And she has an earnest requirement for, in her soul, to please people for the hospitality of, because I think the only way you can get in the restaurant business and in the wine business, frankly, is that innate desire to see a smile on a face or to wow somebody's palate. And you probably -- That's the fuel of our profession. Yeah. I mean, that's just the way it works. And I'm just wondering how, if you see a difference between the truly earnest chef who wants to grab onto this idea because they want to increase the hospitality and their ability to please people. It's exactly that. If I downplay it, then I didn't invent something new. But what I did do is find the concepts and find words to help people with. And it's very gratifying that it really works. But in the process, of course, we have encountered many things that we needed to understand better, that we wanted to understand better. So the theory, if you look at the sequence of books, the first book appeared in 1998. And if I look back at what I wrote in 1998, and what I'm currently doing is making the second edition, writing the second edition of the Assum's of Gastronomy, which is my book in American English that was from Telefrancis. It was published in 2013. So now we are 13 years further. And even then, the new version is going to be add new things, new insights, new ideas. It keeps on growing. It keeps on on. It's a matter of refining and iterations and refining and retasting and retrying, getting there, the real details also. On point, up one in French. So this is basically what we've been doing for a long time. Is this just a really slow, I mean, why does slow, why, right, I tell people it's once a year. I mean, so it's just a really slow industry. And then if you want to change something, it's even harder. It's even slower. But is the same apply with what you're doing the scientific research, the chemistry, the biology in trying to define and get more granular into the reasons these things exist is just it's just a slow process. Very. The very credit card. We were in the fun journey as well, because I'm the best excuse of all to keep on tasting and keep on drinking all kinds of wines and having all kinds of foods and going to all kinds of restaurants because it's all studying. So it gave me a beautiful life. It's small. It is an amazing industry on both sides. And I've been very honored to be part of it. My father dragged me into it originally and I thank him every day, passed away a few years ago for for involving me in this. And it's interesting subject. My father did the same. I did the same to my children. So my children are also now in the business. It's a three generation that fair now. Yeah, I wasn't able to do that because I was in retail effectively retail. And that as you know, what's happened in the wine trade is is clobbered and we were fortunate to get out of it when we got out of it. But we have passed on to our children, the love of food, gastronomy and wine. And they all get it and it's great. And one of the greatest trips we've ever made was to France from my daughter graduated from Atlanta, Cassus, pastry school in the San Jo. And just going to that graduation, even though it was a trade school sort of thing, it was it was just that one, it's just that experience alone to be able to travel to France and go this little village and watch this and it was, was fascinating. So we were in Palermo, not too long ago, I started to make a salaga travel log. It's not what I'm doing this, but we were in Palermo, too long ago. And the song there, he was a Serbian. And this guy loved what he did. And I ordered a bottle of an antonori wine. It's a super test can type thing. And of course, complimented this thing. But the way he loved making the presentation of the wine to me. I knew I knew what the wine was already understood that this is what I did for a living. And I filmed him and took pictures of him because the guy just loved it. And wanted to make sure that I had the greatest experience. And I've referenced this many times as the greatest presentation of Psalm that I've ever seen through all kinds of restaurants. How much of that is part of your expression of the gastronomy, the presentation of the food, like what's the concept eating with your eyes first sort of thing? I just happen to have written a section on that today for the new book. It's certainly a part. And I often refer to, of course, this has everything to do with tasting and tasting experience. I refer to it as, let's say, the one irreplaceable and irreducible factor. The wine is a wine. The combination is a combination. It needs to be right. And if done right chances are that people will like it. And the extra, the wow, the experience is, of course, done in a restaurant. And the way I see it is that if you look at the world and development in the world and AI and the technology and the development of technology, it gets all very, let's say mechanical and automated. And we, very strongly believe that hospitality and also gastronomy will have always always always need this human touch and this human experience to make things really happen. Whatever you do in science can be right and can be very functional and very happy that I do it. But of course, the, where would you experience with a great son, a, adds something to the experience that makes it memorable, makes it special, makes you yearn to go back to Perl Amorow, makes you yearn to take a flight, go to Sicily again, right? So that's not the wine that does that. That's not, I'll ignore you did it. It's the, it's the experience. It's the very special personal experience that makes gastronomy wonderful and memorable and experiential. The one thing in life that cannot be automated and cannot be more or few other things, but, but, but, but, but, but those are things that are really valuable to the human experience and I think that our sentences and everything that sends us off. should really be kept. We should stay close to our sensorial connection to the world. And if that gets lost, you get really, let's say, dependent on gadgets and dependent on gojus and meters and things that tell you what and tell you how. There are a lot of things get lost. And I really, I'm very strongly believe that we should guard what makes life really valuable. That's an excellent way to put it. And I can apply it to my business, the metrics of social networking. I mean, we're in marketing. We're a marketing company, even though I sold the greatest product. In the world, I was a marketing company. This just faced that part. But my job was to make people happy about their experience with wine. And the internet and metric driven marketing, all the key performance indicators and, you know, return on ad spends all this stuff is completely dependent upon a proper experience by the client. In other words, if the experiences aren't good by the client at their home, which is I was a home, I delivered wine to people's homes, then those numbers would change. They would be, you know, they wouldn't be good numbers. And if I did my job properly, then these numbers would reflect on doing my job properly. And so when my father, and this my dad and the picture there and the gray over my shoulder here, had his wine shop, this patch was, is Les Amide de Valle, which was, you know, a very large organization in America with full of enthusiasts. And the reason I bring this up is they created the experiences for their wine shop customers or their restaurant customers. And I believe that we had this evolution of marketing and internet and subscription model and all this stuff. And the consumer just got barrage and tired, particularly of low end wines that were coming from Valencia, Spain and bottled in a fancy label. That really the experiential part of wine and food is what's going to drive this industry back into its, in its proper position, because it's, we know it's suffering. We know that there's issues with the sales volume. And how much of this you think is generated by, or dependent upon the generations? Of a baby boomer, my daughters are millennials, Jen Zeeers, no one can figure out. Have you seen generationally since you've been doing this for so long, a shift in how people perceive all these things? Not really, but I am also a person in a very select bubble of the world, being in a high end gastronomy, etc. As one of my life's, one of my life's running a five-star hotel and a great restaurant. So that's my practical life. And that, I don't see there much difference. Young people also want to experience great experiences. They also want to enjoy. And they also want to have a great feeling, even, and I think that is something that's really challenging for our trade. The prices get up, the wages get higher, the prices get more expensive. So the price of value ratio is unfortunately moving towards prices get higher. And the experience stays the same. So the experience of price value goes down. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that we face in the industry. And one of the biggest cases as well for being very careful that the experience and the hospitality and the reason that you really know what you're doing is good, the foundation, the scientific foundation of what you're doing is right. That will really help you to stay within that, say, the bracket of great experiences. And it's very important, you want to know your marketer, you know that the value of people experience is related to the price that people pay. So if the price goes up and the rest needs to at least, if the rest stays the same, it's not good enough. So we need to find a way to increase the experience. You know, it's interesting. I have coffee every Tuesday morning with this is. And for some reason today, the subject came up a little bit, a three star Michelangu restaurants, et cetera. And we've been to Louis the 15th a couple times in our careers husband and wife to visit the monaco during the Grand Prix and again travel log stories that will like you saying that. But one of the questions I gave this is the time to go there every I know actually I had to tell you we've been there three times just because yeah, it seems expensive on the surface. But the entertainment value is so high that we took a group last year and they just had a blast doing it right. They weren't very happy about the 700 euro meal at all Louis the 15th, but that's okay. The reason that product was I said that's exactly what I mean. Well, that experience like I don't do it every night. Obviously even once a year, I don't do that. But to have that experience and tell the story is worth it to me like the French laundry. So here's a question for you and I asked the question this morning and no one knew the answer you may or may not know the answer. It's expensive restaurant that I know of that I've been to would have been Louis the 15th around that was you know French laundry is probably about the same little bit less. But it's right here in Southern California and it's based on what you're saying it's based on the experience because it's called 21 royale or royal. It was Walt Disney's apartment and it's $1,250 a person to attend this restaurant now you want an experience right it's food pairing and wines all that but it's also Disneyland and you're in Walt Disney's apartment and you don't think there are people that think that $1,250 is a nominal fee to pay to be able to eat in his apartment and then go to Disneyland at the same time and I find that phenomenal. Have you heard of that before have you heard of the same or similar things similar similar experiences in the world are for instance ultraviolet in Shanghai from a pulperate. It's very let's see an immersive gastronomic experience so with all kinds of colors music and the table changing and color and everything changes all the time. And I'm also very welcome is in the Copenhagen very expensive as well does exactly the same thing so these are restaurants that understand that the multi century experience it's called. So it involved more senses with the experience is is a very important part of having the great experience so taste cannot do it by it tastes cannot do it on it's on its own it needs the eye it needs smell it needs comfort feeling it needs the experience. So being somewhere on a unique spot so that that all adds on to that say the great and big experience can that be ultimately can that be dumb dumb down is probably wrong word can that be expressed at a level that a regular American regular Dutch person or regular Frenchman can afford and still have this obviously not the Magnanimous experience but a gastronomical experience that's that you write home about oh yeah pretty confident you could it's doing things right to start with. I believe that the one thing that hasn't been done yet is will be a great idea to to to to to figure it out how it could be done is to use let's say for instance and give people the opportunity to to to relate. You can relate to the preference of the person so there's kind of an app you answer some questions and then you know from that as a professional you know some more about the preference of the person and then you could enter the restaurant and then you get a special let's say on this bush your first appetizer that is really made for you so it's not a generic thing that everybody gets the same thing but now we created something because you answer some questions and I got the idea that I know a little bit more about your preferences so I relate that to my profession to be able to to cook something that helps you that's for you. You know of course great hospitality is for you and it's not a service which is for everybody so therefore to make this things very very let's say personal more than technique could do that. So then you you're not cooking anymore like the best special Bob because as Kufie said this is the way you should cook fish Melba. Then you create the passion Elbar for and self for somebody this is your version that you would like how interesting let's let's peel that back a little bit because in the wine world when I was really active in marketing a couple of clubs started throughout the country here and they were giving you five questions do you sell to food do you like mushrooms you these and then it would make recommendations on the wine based on those answers this is prior to AI. And so I put that I put that question here to the test many times and it always gave me the same wines because it really wasn't doing anything and I thought the how ridiculous but now the ad of the AI and the fact that you know you can manage billions of calculations. a second, that might have tea. That might have, it may be a little settlement. Now, what it needs is the solid foundation. What you do need is, let's say, a solid objective related to relation to taste. If you don't have that, mushrooms just mushroom, and salt is just salt, then it starts to float. But we did that with beer. We created something, a test for beer preferences. So you ask people some questions on their preferences. And then these questions give you a selection of beers that fits to your preference. On the same, you could do with wine. Sure, if you're in a good supermarket, and you are a good, well, well, good source for one shop, then you are baffled by the labels and by the colors. And there's rosé and white and red when they're all shut those and all great wines and all calm, and they're all et cetera, et cetera. So you have not a clue as if you're not into wine. You've not a clue what you should buy. So you end up paying a price, and selecting a price for a country or a grape or something that is, let's say not really telling you much, except for the price. You have to pay that. So suppose you will be in front of that big, let's say, arrangement of all these bottles, and then you will be able to say, OK, now, this is our selection here. Now, ask me-- answer some questions on your preference. What are you looking for? Is it for a special occasion? What's your preference? What are you going to have? What do you like generally? Simple questions, but also easy to answer questions. This must be done, let's say, in 20, 30 seconds. And then you'll get your selection. Is that OK? That one, that one, that one, fits your preference. This is five, and this is 15, and this is 25. So take a pick. But we are pretty certain that these ones will fit your preference as best. That could be done. Now, we have a solid base. It's not about color. It's not about grape variety. It's not about region. It is in contracting and cutting and drying, some kind of a mix. Your answers give you impression that you also have a mix of your preferences. So this is the wind up, will fit you. So we can do much more personalization now that we have the base. This is very underdeveloped. So we're lovely to develop this and to make this big. Because it is, as people have not fully adapted them, there are still many people are not aware of this new theory. But as soon as you start grasping-- Oh, wow, but if this is possible, that is also possible. It's like, like, I often compare it to color. We know exactly, but really exactly what color is. So the pickments and the red. So you know exactly that your boarded over red of your jacket. You can make that exactly the same color on paper, on an airplane, on a glass. Because we know exactly what the composition of your color is. Because we know that exactly, we can replicate it. As soon as I say, well, Paul here has some kind of a boarded or a color jacket. I really love that jacket and give me some kind of jacket. I cannot really say what the color is. Everything stops. I suppose we are much further now in taste than we do understand what it is. You could also make this happen. You know, that's a reversal. That's an opposite. And at the time that we started the wine in the month club, the idea was that we would taste everything that we could get our hands on. And then we would present them to you as proper examples of that wine, Cabernet, from Sonoma, the French board, oh, whatever. And if you didn't like it, then we least gave you the parameters that you do go to the store, don't get a Sonoma Cab. Because this was a good example. And you didn't like it. And so you can probably argue that you're not going to like many of them, unless they're dramatically different. And so but here, this is a proactive version of that same concept. It's a reverse of it. And that you just create the things that we know you're going to like. This, I wrote down this note here. So much of today's culinary experience is based on the concept you are, which you eat, eats. And it's so obvious when you visit a restaurant that uses proper core goods, whether they're biodynamic organic, I'm not sure that matters so much, but that there's complexity and character and detectable character in the chicken or in the sauce you make or in the vegetables that they're buying. And to say that it's organic isn't enough, right? There's lots of organic foods that are bitter and hard to eat. How much does this play into like, is that just the baseline that we have to have? We've got to start with good ingredients, just like you have to start with good grapes to then develop what your study is. Yeah. It's about a flavor composition. I go that on and a flavor design process. There's a chapter in the book about that as well. And then of course, there's action of your ingredients is number one. And then you have a certain, because your base defines what you can do, right? If you buy a Lousy product, you can never create a great meal. So your daughter in pastry must have good butter. If she doesn't have good butter, she cannot make a great personal. So everywhere it's the same thing. If you have a great great, you can start thinking of making a great wine. If you don't have great grapes, everything ends. You can make a mediocre wine. You can do as much as you can with the material you have. And sometimes you have in Lousy years. But then you're limited by what the material gives you. And then you have transformation, you have composition, and then you have elevation, I call it. And then ultimately you have an end product that needs to be packaged and designed so the little person likes it. So there's all, but also that is a process that we are really now really well under our nose. We know what is the stage, what can be done, what you should do. I do to get certain results, what you should not do if you want to prevent certain things, et cetera. And if as soon as you have everything organized now in this new book, the second edition of Essence of Astronomy, I need to finish the manuscript in this month and then telephoto is going to make the book. So I hope that this year, somewhere this year, this book will appear on the market. And that book will really, if people understand it well, will really be a big let's say the new baseline of astronomy. There's no other book that describes everything so fundamental and so, so let's say particular. That was my final question since we were running it. We were out of time, but was it going to be when the book coming out? Because I need to get a copy of this so I can develop this concept and have more intelligent conversations about it. So you think by the end of the year it comes out? - By the end of the year, I have the editor this week or next week to talk about that when how long the process will take. But I'd love to, when the book is there, to send you a copy to have you, let's say evaluate the book and to re-through what this new science is really about. - I'd love to do it. - It's the only way for me to science or flavor and taste. - We've sort of discussed this before, I forgot to turn on the camera. There are tomes of cookbooks and we talked about the Scofy A little bit. You know, it's kind of funny, you're talking about Monaco. We were at a viewpoint for the race, long walk up some stairs to get back in the sort of town. And I stood there for a second and there's a plaque on the wall of this house and it was a Scofy A's home. I felt, I was kind of honored to be standing with you. - So I was in a chef at Monaco. - Yeah, I thought it was really fascinating. - In the quality was she the chef at Monaco. My father read the Dutch translation of the book. - Really? - Wow. - Interesting. You know, French cookbooks are hard to find. - Way of way of, I think. - Through gutsy audition and loving at Scofy A. - We have a 1962 edition that my mother gave me as she got as a gift. So that's what I get to play with. It's been an honor to have you on the show and talk about this. And I can't wait to get a copy of the book, whether you sent it to me or I get it on Amazon, whatever it is. And then reconvene after I read it and dig a little deeper. - Yeah. - Like to do that. - We'll be lovely. - Thanks again for the time today and to this evening for you and my morning just started, but really, really fascinating stuff. - Yep. Thank you for hosting me. - Thank you.