From Surveys to Feelings – Using Emotion as Hard Data to Drive Performance with Matt Stephens

Welcome to another episode of Transformers CEOs. Matt Stevens has led two of his own companies in consulting and employee insight, Quest and Impulse. He's worked with hundreds of CEOs globally. Some of them transformers, so brings both perspectives. Through his own work, Matt has transformed how CEOs value employee insight data and use it to drive performance. He also brings a distinct societal, generation, political and even spiritual angle to leadership by Transformers CEOs. In addition to Transformers CEOs, I run a successful advisory and consulting company working with CEOs, chairman and investors to deliver successful business transformations. I believe you're going to enjoy this episode with Matt, and please remember to leave comments because here at Transformers CEOs, we love your feedback. So Matt, a multiple founder of companies, a serial author, a top global influencer, plus a coach and investor. But you started your days in the corporate world. I did. Who is this man? Where is he? I know. I know this is such a. So my question is, how from those corporate roles did you decide that setting up your own business was the right next step? Yeah, yeah. So it's quite interesting actually. So I was working for a Viva, the insurance company. I've kind of fallen into it after university. And I'd worked my way up. I actually had a fun little sort of anecdote thing, which I started as an IT developer, which is very left brain. As you know, and managed to basically bring down one of the websites, because I was so bad at developing. I put some wrong code in there or did something awful. And anyway, they had the manager at the time, Simon was brilliant, because he recognized my strengths, not my weaknesses. He said, Matt, you know, you're actually a very good communicator, and the marketing team love talking to you of everyone in the IT team. And they like then you to translate that to the IT guys. And the IT guys used to hate the marketing, because they're like, they don't know how to say what they really mean. They say silly things. You know, there's a classic kind of, as you can imagine, the two departments, sort of at war. And he said, you know, you're a good bridge. And he said, well, look, there's, as it was their Norwegian, they're doing some kind of new culture that bringing together people from all across the business. And from our area, I think that you should go and attend and sort of represent us. So that's great. So it went along. And it was one of those classics, sort of, you know, the, what they call the world, world cafe, you know, going on. And it was all great fun. But anyway, I got noticed there by the head of comms for even. He said, I want you to come in, I'm going to make you, you know, whatever the title was at that point, I remember. And because I think you're brilliant, you're, you're very quite good communicated naturally. I'll, I'll kind of train you up and develop you and we'll go from there. So that's absolutely amazing. So it's a win for it. And then the day arrived, he said, by the way, I'm leaving. I've got a much better job. Great. I think it was RBS actually at the time who put a lot of money in front of him. So he moved on. So I was kind of like left holding the baby. And then someone else came in. Point point of the story was through that. I actually ended up as head of comms for a large part of, of a Viva UK. And had, had just had a lot of fun actually. It was great fun because I got to be around leaders. And, you know, how it is you've been in a large organization that sort of the comms role is almost to sort of understand what leaders are trying to achieve. And then again sort of help translate that, whether it's through the written, the verbal, you know, face to face through town halls, whatever. So that gave me, you know, some really great insights into human nature and to leadership and how do you lead people into fellowship? You know, how do you help people follow those who are leading. But there was a problem Eric. And the problem was I kept speaking truth to power. Now this point, I'm in my early mid 20s. I was probably 23 to 25. And, you know, a leader would get up and they would run a town hall in front of 150 people in London. And then they come up to me and say, you know, how do you think I went terrible. You were genuinely awful. I cannot understand how you don't know how to communicate. How is a blunt instrument. I actually did this actually happen numerous times. Until someone thankfully had a fabulous direct came alongside me said, Matt, you know, you fantastic. You got some great skill. But there are other instruments. Sorry, there are other tools in the bag. And just using a hammer every single time, particularly your age is going to really irritate older people. Typically, they're probably all in their 40s or 50s. And I was in my early 20s. So like, you know, have you noticed that probably everyone just walks away from you? It's like, yeah. So I kind of partly realized, you know, it wasn't for me corporate life. And actually there was a really defining moment where a bit later on, but when the director's came to me, it's a great news. We're going to put you on the director pathway. And in in in a years time or 18 months time, you know, we'll get you through. And you're going to be on this salary camera was at that time 90,000 pounds. He was saying this thinking I was going to be super excited. I went, 18 months and 90,000 pounds. That's awful. I know some people go, that's an amazing amount of money still today. But to me, I was like, I was all into the Tony Robbins stuff. So I was big on, you know, got a set big goals dream big. So I was like an 18 months when you were mid 20s seems like forever. So so that was kind of a quite big moment where I realized corporate life wasn't wasn't for me. And I was ready to leave, which I did at 25. Wow. Yeah. So so effectively at 25, I left. I decided to set up a comms consultancy, which was intriguing because, you know, I had no clients. I didn't know how to sell. I'd only been in corporate. And it was sort of working out, you know, effectively, how do I set up a little sales department, how to set up a marketing department, how do I set up the operations department. And how do I do the finance department, what about the legal department, because, you know, all of these things you got to think about, yeah, someone setting of a business that suddenly kind of came to site, site where up to that point. Effectively, I'd been an employee and got my salary each month and, you know, you were pretty much guided in what you need to do and not do and all that sort of stuff. That was quite quite a quite a big moment, but I'd met on my journeys through Aviva, a fascinating guy who played a big part in my early career. He was a business coach. He'd been brought in to help people go through change. So there was a lot of remember that so the early naughty said a lot of outsourcing and offshoring. Everyone was into, you know, putting everything into India in terms of all the, you know, telephone and that sort of side of things, departments, so customer service. So he was really helping people kind of navigate how to change and kind of go through, you know, organizational transformation. And really, everyone was there. He was he was effectively doing, you know, what you'd call now sort of NLP, near linguistic programming. He was he was doing a bit of positive psychology. It was absolutely fantastic. It was amazing, but he had this uncanny ability to put 30 people in a room and they would come in what I'd call bent out of shape. They would just not in a great place. You know, they, no certainty of their future. The company that they thought they're going to be with for X number of years now look like they might not be these people from another country were taking their jobs. You know, all these, you know, real feelings and emotions that they had and they would leave after eight hours going, I am so excited about my future. I can't wait to get another job with us here or whether that's with another organization. I was like, holy hell, yeah, how's this guy doing this. And so I'd actually because I was doing the comm side, I'd got alongside him. I was helping communicate some of these workshops and I got to sit in them and start to see how good he was at what he did and actually went, hey, I'd love to do some of that. So he was your inspiration. He was, yeah, yeah, yeah, strewn. He's, he's now in the States, but amazing Kiwi guy and had, yeah, had had a real impact on me in those early years and also kind of helped me take off my limiting beliefs. You know, sort of if you like, have capped myself, you know, I could never do this. Well, that's not for me. Yeah, but I don't have these skills or these sort of limiting beliefs that sort of hold you down. And he kind of helped me sort of release myself, if you like, from my own cell and go, hey, why are you building all these little prisons for yourself? They're stopping you go out and just have some fun and have some play and learn some stuff. And so he gave me a couple of challenges. One was I'd to go and do a number of courses, pay for. And two, he said, I wanted to read these 50 books and I wanted to do it in a year. Wow. And he listed them on all the 50 books you want to read. And I did read them and I read them and I read them and I just got completely into an excited by sort of the sense, the whole learning something new. But also the content was, you know, very got me of which some of that was, you know, the famous ones, you know, unlimited power, waking the jam within through to some others that you. You wouldn't necessarily be so well-known, but the point of all that was with that, with the courses, and he said I'm happy to be a mentor, that was part of what helped me so the point. - I'm an amazing support structure though. - Incredible. - Yeah. - Incredible. And I think, you know, you talk about, you know, Transformers CEOs and leaders who have influence. I saw through and knew that not just with me, but tens of thousands of people actually was to one empower them and give, you know, I love that would empower. So give them back their own power. - Yep. - To go, it's in your power. It's in your gift. - Yeah. - You decide, as opposed to, I'll wait until I'm done to, by the organization. You know, once the organization has made its decision about me, then I might decide what I want to do versus no. Either stay in the journey and, you know, choose to be in the journey, or actually move on and go and find something else to do. So no, it was a great support structure. He really helped me over that first period. So that basically brings us into sort of, you know, my mid late 20s. I'd set up this, if I were greatly, my first name is, I smile 'cause I called it complete change solutions. And I remember working with an organization with a very large housing association in the UK, I think the largest at that time. And we were doing a big change program. And I was doing a lot of the coaching as well as the comms, but they wanted a bit of sports and other things. And they came to me and said, oh, can you help? And I said, oh, I'm afraid I can't. And they went, well, is it complete change solutions? Is it incomplete change solutions? Oh, yes, not very nice, but good actually, very true. So that then morphed into what then became quest agency and quest agency was my way of really looking at what I call the trilemma of sort of leadership, engagement and culture. But it sounds like your journey to see your ship, if you like, was, I mean, it is for everybody, to some extent, a learning of fear. But it seems like you were really learning from the bottom up and had the accountability at the same time. Is that fear to say? Yeah, it's a great way to put it. I very much felt I was at the call face and learning on the job, both the content, so how to be a coach, how to do communications, and how to run a business. So very kindly, the first few years was just me. And then when I created quest agency, that was very much my first time of going. I now want to be a lead. I don't want to do it all myself. I want to actually lead a team. And so over the years, 'cause I'm sort of late 20s, early 30s now, I've met lots of amazing people. And I kind of jokingly described it, I'd heard it cats. These wonderful, or a nicer way of putting it is, we built a business colony. So lots of people who had great doers, but they didn't want to have a company. They just wanted someone else effectively to go out and get the business and put the whole deal together. And then they were happy to deliver on this coaching program, deliver on this change program, deliver on this engagement, what it might be. So yeah, I, a quest agency was born, and that's where we kind of, I started having to lead people and scale. Yeah. So invariably, there are setbacks in early businesses, what were some of yours? Oh, many, many varied. I think one of the hardest things running your own businesses, you get into this mindset of, there's gonna be this really big moment where one big client is gonna somehow, you know, we're gonna get Apple. We're gonna get, it's gonna catapult you. It's gonna catapult me, you know. For some people that does happen, but actually, I would say the most businesses, and having run my business and invested in a lot of businesses, and I do a lot of coaching for business leaders of their own businesses, I would say that's almost never happens. What happens is just bit by bit, by bit, by bit, by bit, by bit, you end up going, oh wow, look, we went from half a million turnover, now we're 1.5 million, it took four years, but we did it. But you never had this kind of big moment that you were waiting for, where Rolls Royce or HSPC, we're gonna sign up for a million pound deal. Some people do get that, but actually the majority. So I think the setback for me was that sense of, I actually didn't feel like we were winning, like we were sort of getting there, that was make sense. And actually led me to one of my little things which was clarify the win. Say somewhere? Yeah, so I kind of was getting so frustrated at ending each year going, well, have we won? How should I feel right now? Should I feel happy, sad, annoyed? I mean, another way to say it is goal setting, it was like, I just needed to clarify the win. What is a win? And so, and that's, and for me, it had to be beyond just financial, you know, numbers. It had to be, well, people stuck with me, you know, who have employed, have people grown? Have we had some fun along the way? But declines like the work we're doing, beyond just numerically, did we bring in more revenue, have we made more profit? Yeah, right. Yes, they're important, of course. You're running a business. And there had to be this sense of something else. And that's why I came with this, clarify the win. Yeah. What does winning mean? And a lot of people call that purpose. No, it is. Yeah, absolutely. Sort of, purpose often is the sort of, if you like, the driver, the sort of where, what's the fuel going into the engine? And for me, you know, I saw a clarify the win as sort of, ah, the engine has taken us somewhere and not just towards two measurements of, you know, growth and revenue and profit has to be a bit more than that. But so it was quite an interesting time because I was growing effectively the team. I was learning how to sort of build teams. I had to be that I had done that in the corporate world. I had had different teams of different size up to about 30 was the biggest I'd had in the corporate world. But here now, in a sense, it was weird because they're not here because it's a big brand name because we're at Eon or wherever I was at that time. It's because they've joined a fatally mass company. And I used to hate that when people would say to me, particularly when I came to look at selling it, people say, well, really, yes, it might be called impulse, but really it's a mass company. And then you learn to go, well, yeah, it kind of is. Until you get to sort of 80, 90 people, certainly the first 50 or 60. In a sense, they're going, do I back this person? Yeah, or whoever they are? Because people join for managers. But in this case, they're really joining for you. But they kind of aren't they going? Do we do, do we buy to the vision? Do we not, which is, again, a key part of what it is to be a transformer CEO is, can you cast a vision? Can you actually, will people follow you? You can think you're a leader until you realize no one's following you. You have the badge, which is the lowest form of leadership. He'll look at my badge, like sort of shouting out, and do you know, I am the CEO. At that point, you realize you've lost it. You really are the leader when you have to start telling people that you are. But yeah, sorry, just back to that sort of, you asked the question of some of the challenges we faced. It's hard to express initially the challenge you feel of, I am providing for people and their families. So you're always really conscious where the year wasn't quite as good as you wanted. You maybe a number of times we had to sort of go in the early days and say, hey, there's absolutely no bonuses. I think once or twice we had to say, we might actually have to all just take a slight pick up just for six months, maybe even three months, and then we'll put it back up just to get through a cash flow period. And we'd always, always put the employees first and go, that's because you felt the weight of actually, sort of managing people. So I think it was, oh, and then just one other was occasionally, I think twice, I've got two very strong memories of a client over about 10 years calling me up saying, hey, really sorry, but so and so was awful. Didn't deliver. That's tough because you know the person, you rate them, and generally you put them in there because you think they're good. When you're running a small business, you don't put someone in who don't think it's going to deliver the job. Really counts. Yeah. And then when you've got a client who you really need and you want a key, you know, and they're going, look, it was, it was a pretty, it just wasn't good enough, the output, whatever, whether that was a, you know, something they've delivered, a document or whether that was a face-to-face delivery. And that was quite tough. I remember having to have one conversation with a really good friend, who still is a good friend and go, hey, they're pulling you off. And there was about six more workshops to run and go. Unfortunately, one of the senior leaders was in, one of them, and didn't like how it had been delivered. Thought it wasn't strong enough. It's a difficult one, because I remember the time I checked with some other people who were in the workshop. They were like, no, no, it's fine, but you know how these things work. You know, for senior leaders in there and doesn't take a liking, then, you know, whether, whether it was right or wrong, doesn't matter at that point. So you were learning a lot. You were definitely at the cold face setting up, but these businesses delivering for clients. But also, as you see, you know, thinking about people's livelihoods. And I guess pulling them out of corporates to come and back you personally. There's a lot of weight, a lot of responsibility there. Yeah, I think you're, and also you're sort of thinking, so where's this going? You know, will this get to where I want it to? And in part, that's where it was quite interesting. So we had effectively by 2014, 2015, had a really nice consultancy. I was looking at this trilamer leadership culture engagement. So why do I call it trilamer? Because you start talking about leadership. You have to talk about culture. If you talk about engagement, you have to talk about leadership. And so the three sort of, and the trilamer, because, you know, getting them right, as you know, who was very difficult and gave them all flowing well. And it was at that point I came up with a whole new business really, which was how do I effectively, how do we change the engagement industry? And I caught an industry because that's how it felt. What do I mean my engagement? So effectively at that point, the annual survey. And so, you know, thinking about sort of 2014, 2015, 2016, it was predominantly the big players, you know, we all know them, Willis, Tows, Watson and Gallup. And they were doing some really good things, but they were what I'd call very left brain. They were very much about, you know, kind of very logical, very analytical questions, you know, with this slightly random one from Gallup, you know, I've got a best friend, but the rest were pretty, pretty sort of live call left brain approach. And the work I'd been doing in a lot of organizations working for large corporates, you know, names, you know, Rolls-Royce, Allied, Irish Bank, AIB, you know, some big corporates amongst many others. One of the challenges we saw is engagement seemed to be stuck. And it wasn't moving, you know, and each year the annual survey would be rolled out and we all know how that looks and how that feels. And so, in all the work I've been doing with my sort of NLP background, new linguistic programming background, I came up with this idea of this in a sense is, you know, you asked about sort of influences, where I sort of wanted to bring some real influence to bear was, I actually think we need to bring a whole different perspective, which is to look at how people feel and why. And that was in part because of NLP, which would say how you feel drives your performance, your behaviour, how you feel is driven by what you're focused on, what's in your mind. And this was really your big transformation, wasn't it? Because, you know, as well as running the company, you were writing books, and you were trying to reshape an almost kickstart industry into thinking about a really important topic, but in a different way. Is that, is that fear? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. It always sounds better in hindsight, you know, and it's not even, I was trying to work out what I was doing, but I kind of felt like, look, the console is, he's great and we're doing lots of change programs and we're helping companies with the communications and being better at doing comms. And we were constantly touching this engagement thing that just seems so out of sync with what it is to lead, how you build culture, then this 7080 question survey that was sort of about everything, but nothing, nothing ever happened with the results. People actually gave up, you know, almost, you know, you almost got to the end of your career answering the annual survey. It took so long, you know. And so you're right, what I was, what I started to see was there is a real opportunity to ask a different set of quick to come at this differently, to change the perspective. So it's not all just left brain, it's actually right brain, so more emotion, more color, more imagination, more future, more feeling based. And put the two together, so left brain and right brain, so whole brain, and begin to see if we could unlock more of what it means to be engaged, excuse me, so it's not just this very, well, do I have the resources? Do I get up with my line manager? But even that wasn't necessarily about the relationship it was about, do they give me feedback? Do they do what ones with me? Do they set me goals? Which is interesting, it's quite left brain, it's not how's our relationship. Can I speak openly with them? Do I think this person's got my back? And that's what I was trying to change as well. So yeah, absolutely, I came in with this idea of, let's focus on how people feel and why. And so I went to see a friend who's an IT developer, remember this point? So I'm just doing a consultancy, I don't know anything about IT, we're a nice, nice little outfit, I think it was about eight of us at that time and, you know, motoring along quite nicely, we had some really nice projects. And this boy, I didn't really sell anything to any other, I just thought I was going to go out, so I spoke to a friend, locally who's an IT development said, look, I've got this idea, I want to create a little app, and I just want to be able to like, everyone could just, that point was like, download the app, if you remember. Now it's all web-based apps, but download the app, and then they could just, how do you feel about working at, you know, wherever, and why. And then I'm going to be awesome if they could see the results, because that's totally transparent, because, you know, at that point, I think, you know, we were all reading Hillary Clinton's leaked email hills on Wikipedia, whatever it was. In other words, everything's transparent, but with the annual server, you had to wait six, sometimes six months. Yeah, certainly three months. Crazy, really. It is, it's mad. This is in 2015, 2016. So, yeah, my bet was, let's focus on emotion, let's find out why they're feeling the way they are, and let's share the results with everyone, because it wasn't just about the transparency in terms of the speed, immediacy, it was also about ownership. So if I, the leader, hold on to the server results, and I get to keep them for three months, then clearly I own them. And then clearly, it's down to me to fix everything, and I don't believe that. I don't think they can in a lot, particularly a large organization. I think actually everyone needs to own the results, and then everyone works together to solve the results. Do leaders have a specific role to play? Absolutely. Do they have to lead on some things, of course, but that had been overemphasized, and what had been lost is, you will have seen yourself, employees would sit back and go, well go on then, make things better, and literally check out. And then leaders would run around trying to make things better, and they go, is it better? No. And, you know, it's been like getting my teenage kids, you know, who's got the power they have now? So, quite often, shearing a vision, and getting other people behind you is, well, usually there's a really important stage in any kind of age of change. Did you use your books and your book writing to kind of widen the. Yeah, exactly that. It was a feeling of, if I'm going to shift, I was very focused on the UK market at that point. It's actually quite small. I kind of felt like I was already new, probably 50 of the senior HR leaders in the country, and I knew that they met with other. So, if I could kind of influence the people I was working with, it would very quickly influence others. So, yeah, it was very much around, how do I get this message out? So, I went, we went to quite a lot of conferences, some paid for, some invited, very openly, and then I was working with actually one of the team, brilliant author himself, written 25 books, John Simmons. He created Tony Voice, so he was the guy behind, you know, we did internal Tony Voice, sort of came with the concepts in the 80s and 90s, and he was still helping with some of the consults he were we're doing, and he had a really fun saying, which is the root word for authority is author. It's not, but I really love that. The root word of authority is author. So, once you're an author, you have authority. And he was like, so you should write books, he actually helped me write the book and guided me again. As interesting you, the point you made at the beginning is you start to look back, you realize, you know, I had some really key people at key times, he'd written 25 books. So, I went off to Spain, got a fabulous hotel, I don't only, it sounds dodgy, it wasn't. Just so I could have three days with no kids, my wife came with me and literally just sat there on a sun lounger in, I think it was November, and started to write. So, you didn't feel alone then. You didn't feel like you were right there, Chris Thedon, you felt you had your late-minded folks, either shared your vision, or were pushing you along, or what was the? I felt supported in the sense of the immediate team and the people around me who were very like, yeah, this is absolutely on the money, the focus on the emotion, the focus on the transparency, the focus on the immediacy, the focus on reducing the number of questions, everyone owning it. Outside, it was a bit of a, a bit of a cold wind. I mean, I've got, I'll never forget going to one of the largest global banks who had quartered in the UK and I was pitching impulse to them. And so I finished my pitch and I can remember, it was a CFO said, but Matt, why on earth would I want to know how my people feel? And then he went, I don't even want to know how my wife feels. And then he was like, I said, well, I knew I was going to lose at this point and this is where I tried to prove that I was, I've moved off my 20s, but I still have a slight sharp tool in my box and I said, well, that's really interesting because I would say that's a little stupid because they're feeling that way, whether you know it or not, so not knowing it and then feeling that way. And so you can't solve it. To me would be a little bit mad. It would be better to know how they're feeling so you can actually solve it. And instead of the tumbleweed, I knew I wasn't winning that pitch. Another hammer moment. A little hammer moment. Slightly softer hammer, but you know, with great respect, I think I said, you know, not knowing seems to be mad, you know, because that's what's holding them back from being engaged. Yeah, such an important part of the cockpit of any company, surely, is understanding really what you're 10, 20, 30, 50, 100,000 people are feeling. Yeah, absolutely that. So now, so when you asked the question, at this stage, this is 10 years ago, I would actually say, no, it was a bit cold out there. And when I was going around, there was a real sense of, this is, oh, this is too close. It's almost quite English. Am I saying English in the sense of British, right? Oh, we don't want to know people's feelings, which is amazing how much the world has changed in 10 years. I mean genuinely, that's why I was, that was my constant reason for no. I'm not sure we want to know, or what would we do with that? I'm like, well, you've got the why as well, because everyone would just hear, we're going to ask how they feel and why. And then to be fair, we had some very progressive companies who took it on impulse. And we started getting the data, and the data was amazing. So you had a flywheel then through some clients? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, ASOS early days, credit to them came out with one of our first clients. I mean, you know, to get ASOS, that was to be fair as close as I got to sort of like I'd got the big whale, because they were on that up at that point 2015, 2016. And they liked what I was offering, because it did seem more culturally fitting or generationally fitting, actually, I would say, more sort of millennial of which they had a lot. You know, I think that average age of their manager was like 25 at that point. Yeah. The average age of the work was 21. You know, it was amazing. It was amazing. And so what was the flywheel telling you? So it's telling me that once people got the information, they were, if, if, and this is, this is the challenge, if they, if they were decent leaders, they could actually have really healthy, helpful conversations. And a lot of the issues were being solved without having to, being honest, but I'm to deal with all the other stuff, because people would say, well, I'm irritated because I don't know what's going on with the company. Or they'd say, I'm frustrated because I don't see you, you only do, you know, one meeting every month. And that's incredibly useful. Oh, so I can take away your irritation by doing this once a week, once every two weeks. And so these conversations were starting to happen. Quite quent. Yeah, yeah. And very easily solved. So again, what we were hearing from people was, oh, is it going to be the million pound issue? Is it going to be, you know, the million pound project that's going to be required? No, it was actually what was required was a conversation. And so that's one of our, that became one of our big selling points. All that's required is a conversation. Yeah. That you now have the data, the key data, which is how people are feeling and why. Yep. Have the conversation with them and solve the problem. And the most always, it was a relational, which I think about humans. So it was always a relational problem. You know, I don't feel I've got enough information. I don't feel they like me. I don't feel I'm listening to, you know, and so with impulse, with that information, alongside we would ask some of the other key questions, you know, around process and resource and strategy, you know, do you feel you know where the company's going and et cetera. But that became, and then Eric, this is where I got exciting clients that had come into us saying, you know, we really only just want to ask those two questions like, or at worst best case, they would say, we really just need to focus on solving how they're feeling and why. We're like, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then what you they would see, I'm not like, it was amazing. The correlation to then the engagement score going up. So we'd still do like most people would know an engagement score would be four or five questions, the average of those four or five questions. So we'd still do that. But we'd then ask this emotion question. But what we started to see was a correlation, very strong, that where the emotion went up, the engagement would go up good for and they were, they were what we were seeing was people were saying to us, focusing on the emotion gets us a quicker, faster route to improving engagement, than actually focusing on the engagement questions. Incredible. So when did you feel that you were off from away? This was going to work. This had legs. I remember like 2018. So 2018, there was a total moment of we had some really big clients come aboard some of the two or three of the biggest construction companies in the UK, a couple of very large transport companies. And it was like I was going into pitch people going, what a brilliant idea. So it's about three years. It's about three years it took to go from one earth what I wanted to know how my people feel. So from right in the book in Spain, three years later, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So that had no doubt helped. I was really fortunate that the revolution in a heartbeat took off really well, probably sold around five, six thousand copies, which doesn't sound much, but for a business book from a newcomer, as we as the marketing goes, not an unknown, a newcomer. And then I did a follow-up to that with some really, really good case studies where it was, I think it's about two and a half years later, I did the follow-up, the engagement revolution because I actually had the data now to show that where people focused on how people are feeling. You were seeing some really big shifts in engagement. And so just to quantify this, it was kind of things like sticking with us for about I think it was three years, you would see a 10 percentage point increase. Now, that doesn't sound revolutionary, but you got to imagine a lot of the companies were kind of stuck. They'd got to 65, they got to 70% engagement. And they just couldn't, you know, as a week came along, we said, focus on the motion. And within three years, they're up 10 percentage points. So that could mean 15 percent or 20 percent, you know, it could be about 60 to 70, which is, you know, almost 15 percent increase. And I'd imagine with the kind of data set you're saying to build, you could then provide a benchmark for companies using the same kind of questioning. Absolutely. And it got even better. We could show them which emotions were the key ones to focus on. We started to build a database as well of like actions that people were taking that would make a difference, particularly at the sort of corporate level as well as the manager level, but more the corporate level. So in other words, if you have high levels of frustration that are to do with your corporate messaging, I guess what fitted really nicely with my old business, which was still sort of going around, I still had a team who were helping with the consultancy side, who go and go great, right? We've got to improve communications significantly. And did you, for the CEOs watching, did you make the connection to performance as well? So a 10% uplift in advocacy or engagement did what for the top and bottom lane? Brilliant point. So let me, let me be really honest, right to start with, it was a, you know, excuse my bad language, it was a shit show because we needed their data and the data was awful. So we were like, people kept coming to us quite, probably about 2018, 2019 saying, we'd love to correlate this to our performance data, our sickness data, and you know, see where people have more positive motions. Are we seeing they're getting higher scores on their performance rating? Are we seeing where people have got more negative motions? Are they off sick more often? So we were all for that. And then we said, great, but we just need your data and guess what? They didn't have it or it was, it was a, it was all over the place and it was on, and then they would do it in a different way. So they didn't do it like how we would do through departments down into teams. They didn't do it like that for certain parts of like the sickness, whatever. And we're like, so it took longer than I would have liked. That's the point I'm making. We would love to have got there, but genuinely it was a data problem. Once we started to get it, yeah, it was, it was another flywheel moment. Can you think of a, of a best-case example? Yeah, absolutely. So on performance. Yeah, yeah. So we, one of the largest transport companies in the UK, they do lovely buses. Two things happened. One was, they got in three years, they had almost 50% rise in engagement. And it's because they started correlating some of their data and they were able to pinpoint, if you like, poor performers with poor emotions, how they were feeling. And they were actually able to work with them. And then they were able to spot some of the sicknesses and they were able to spot some of the trends that were going on. And there were some clear trends. Some of it a little bit naughty, you might say, people taking the mic. And so some people will let go and actually some of it, which was very genuine. And it was around some, candidly, how they're being led, which was leading to this anxiety. And so they dealt with the leaders that were actually causing some of those issues. So it was incredible because now I give credit to them. And their HRD or CPO was to be very impressive because he did the hard yards and he looked into it. So he took the data. The first thing was they went with us and went, we're stuck at engagement. And they were low. They were like mid 40s. And so 50% is still below our sort of benchmark of 70 80. But in three years to go up for mid 40s, up 50% so they got to about 65 is incredible. I mean, that's serious, transformational change. And it was because of your point of the overlay of other correlative data, particularly performance and sickness, which was really able to show them where the departments were, were basically stuck. And I'm credit against them. They didn't go in with the sort of hammer. And you know, at this point, we're having learned over the years, you know, we're going and going, a lot of this can be solved. And it just needs to come alongside, encourage, there will have to be a few people you're probably going to let go because we could see very clear leadership issues, causing sickness and, you know, and that's where I've seen a lot of benefits in the past as one is in leaders. It tells you a lot about the capability of leaders, sometimes the attitude and the values of leaders as well. And it also can positively impact attrition as well. Did you see those things? Yeah, we did. We did. So two sides. One was, so real story, one of the largest construction companies in the UK, very well known, two stories about them. One is absolute nutrition over about five years came down from I think the industry average was about 25% came to about 12%. - Wow, that's just a huge strength. - Yeah. - I mean, it had a massive impact on the business. And I actually remember emailing the CEO who's a bastion of British industry and said so and so. Would you mind if I started saying, you know, we've had this impact. He said, you know, I think the industry came out my dear boy. I would love to be able to say that. But the marketing team say no. But if you're in a meeting and you happen to say it and it's not written down, delighted. (laughing) So I did. And every sales meeting, I would say no. I'm not allowed to have this on the slide. But I'm allowed to say. - Yeah. - Because they saw, and they got a lot of remote workers. - Right. - So, because obviously they're, you know, up, I would say up poles and downholes. So, you know, these are people who, and then candidly, they would move for a pound extra. So if someone, you know, another company said, we'll put a pound on your weekly packet. They got. - Yeah. - So, to bring down my 50% over, it was a number of years that that attrition rate was just incredible. And then the second, sorry, just a moment apart of that, which was amazing was, there was a big decision to make at COVID. And the big decision was, were they going to top up, you know, do, to, to, so the government were doing 80% of it. - Yes. - And they had to decide were they going to top up to 100% the salaries of people under whatever the salary band was. And there's big debate, and they went down, they did a survey on it. And they made the call to do it because they felt it would be very beneficial. And it cost them, I think they said, 19 million pounds. So there was a real world, and construction, the margins are tiny, right? So, 19 million is, you know, could be half, you profit that year. - Oh my goodness. The following, I think three surveys, the attrition alongside it, the sickness reducing alongside it, the productivity gains they got were incredible. And I mean, time and again, people would write, that decision made us trust you. That decision had a real, we won't forget that. Because people remember those, and it's funny isn't it? Well, it was 16, 19 million, right? In one sense, nothing, peak peanuts to a, you know, at it's one year, we asked what you have less profit, but what that gave them. - Yeah, enormous ripple effects. - So great. For example, they're all this made you a global influence. (laughing) - Yes, yeah, I was, I was very fortunate, I had three or four years of, you know, winning a couple of wards around global influence, but really because I've chosen to focus on how people are feeling and why. Which now is so funny isn't Eric in 2025. You know, we're almost, you know, overwhelmed with everyone's emotions and how they're feeling, but you know, go back 10 years. It was like, don't bring that into the workplace. Already is in the workplace. (laughing) And well, let's not measure it. Well, oh, actually, let's measure it. So now everyone's like, what, you're not measuring it? And it's so funny 'cause we go, you know, if the team are doing pitches, whatever, and they'll say, you know, everyone's like, oh, yeah, no, we've been doing that for the last few years, now, measuring emotion. And it's so funny 'cause I think, you know, we just wouldn't have, that wasn't on the, on the agenda, certainly 10 years ago, and even five years ago, it was just becoming the norm. So yeah, no, really, really, you know, it's very kind that people have recognized me both in the UK and more globally, alongside some amazing names. But I suppose it felt like a, at the time, you know when you're going through something and you're doing something that's, it feels quite small and like, you're not making any breakthrough. And it's only actually as you sort of come out and go through, you go, oh, wow, actually things have changed, haven't they? Yeah. Sort of culturally, it's much more normal now for, class say, well, how are we gonna measure how people are feeling though? You know, are we gonna, you do ask those questions, don't you? You know, is there any part of your brain that says we might have oversteered a little? So if we chunk up a few levels, the last five years in the, particularly global West, I think it's been really, so I'm very privileged to work alongside a lot of exec teams and still do. So I get to, say, privileged 'cause I get to listen in and sit in and advise and guide and give my opinion to them. And I think it's been, I think there was some what I would call really helpful cultural shifts over the last five or six years. I think walking a mile and other people's shoes, stuff we probably knew but has been brought back to mind recognizing that everyone's had your lived experience. I think I'm thinking more about I'm not so much into equity which is, you know, I'm into equality. Less so, I think equality is right, which is how do we equality of outcome? Sorry, equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Everyone's gonna make it to where they make it but there should absolutely be opportunities for everyone. - Yep. - And so that's your point. I think we've also seen probably some unhelpful traits so for example, I think now, very candidly, I've been in four, five conversations with senior leaders who say, oh, we don't lead. There's just, there's no point leading because if we lead particularly and again, you know, gotta be careful 'cause it's not to over criticise or focus on, say, a Gen Zadimal annual but they are very worried and these people are typically Gen X's or boomers. So, 45 to 65 who are leading will say some all will take offense. They will feel hurt and therefore I will be canceled or I'll be told. And then of course, 'cause I've listened to Gen Zad, I've been in lots of workshops. They'll say, yeah, but it did hurt me and they're just from a different generation and they need to learn how to handle me. And then as you dig into it, you realise there is no handling. What they're saying is I just want to choose what I want to do when I want to do it, how I want to do it. Well, that's fine but it's very, you're never going to be led. You know, that's someone saying there's nothing you can do unless I feel happy about it. Imagine trying to bring up a child like that. It's a poor example, but if the child said every time, no, unless I feel this, I'm not doing it. Yeah, but brushing your teeth is really good for you. Yeah, but because you've told me and 'cause you said I have to, now I'm not going to do it 'cause I don't feel, I feel like you've just, and genuinely it sounds like I'm over it 'cause any of it, but this is what some of the leaders are feeling. So I do think we have probably the pendulum is swung and these people paid serious amounts of money going, oh no, I'll just cruise through now next few years 'cause to raise my head, to seem to be seen to lead. And I think then if we go to a different level, we look at politically just for a moment, it doesn't really matter whether you're left or right. What we can see is nations with particular democracies where people struggle to lead. And so you end up with sort of what's going on in America where you have a sledgehammer to try and solve issues. And so if you take one side, it is the immigration being solved. Yes, if you take another side, it has the economy being solved with the right in the middle of a lot of pain 'cause of all the terror. Maybe, maybe not how to know which way that will go. But there's a person gone, I'm going to lead. I'm going to use a sledgehammer to lead and I don't care what you say. And my worry is that's where you end up because to try and do a sort of more medium lead now gets you know what it's-- I know a man's land. And I think that's where we are in the UK. I mean, look, we've got a government with the biggest majority pretty much for 100 years and nothing's happening 'cause they've got a background you're saying you can't do this. You've got an electric saying do that. And so does that pendulum over swing lead to the next big idea? Well, I'm a big fan and I think you're meant to learn from the systems as you go through them. Take the good, take the helpful and ditch the unhelpful. So I would like to think that, you know, we would take some of the good that we've seen emerge over the last 15, 20 years. You know, and add it in. So, you know, people's lived experience making sure there's, you know, a quality of opportunity and really making sure that's there. And probably ditch some of the more unhelpful side of things, let's bring it back down to the corporate life. Like having worked with lots of companies, some of the D&I has become incredibly performative, not transformative. And when I've spoken to-- Just say a little bit more of what that means. So I think it's become, if we can hit these targets, this will transform things. So that's a performative. So we have to perform and deliver this. And I can tell you, having worked with a number of companies, they then do that. And it doesn't solve this. It was another issue because there's a ripple effect. And so they go, oh, well, now, because we did this, that's not happening. Or we're not seeing this now emerge, or we're losing some talent. Or so, and I'm not sure targets is the way. Let me just go a little bit deeper. In some of the conversations I've had on D&I, and it comes up for various reasons around engagement, particularly with leadership. What it seemed to have been is, if I could use a little bit of sort of religious languages, there's a sense of, [BLANK_AUDIO] I would call effectively, there's a winner or a loser. So either you are in D&I, someone has to win, someone has to lose, or you can have, so I'd call that a Retributive Justice. So Retributive Justice is effectively who's won, who's lost, who's the sinner, who's the saint, right? Which, if we're honest, it's felt like that a bit over the last five years. So because you've got these characteristics, you're another winner, because you have those, and someone might say, oh, that's how it, but that's how it was on the other side. And I'd say, yeah, and they didn't solve the problem. What we need is a Retributive Justice, which is where together we work out how to solve the problem. And that sounds very nice, but that's difficult, 'cause it means there's not an instant answer, a solution that means together we work out and go, well, is there a boys club? Is there a female club? Is there a, we don't like youngsters. Is there a, and let's walk through that. Show me, help me work with it. So it requires conversation. It requires maturity and leading into controversial issues. - Leading controversies where we can keep talking, then the other side that's happened is, we've had this wonderful overlay, which is, and you now can't talk things out, 'cause I'll cancel you if you say something wrong. And I've got lots of friends with different characteristics, and it's interesting talking with different friends who would say, you know, if you can't talk things out, you feel a real problem. - Yeah. - Because then, then we get into really quite scary places. And you have to even talk things out where people get things wrong and say things. So the way I say that is, we can't walk on eggshells, 'cause eggs are going to get cracked here, because we're talking about issues that are challenging, difficult, personal, real, and that's why I've run lots of DE and I, the cult change with, again, friends. And we've been sat in there, and it's so interesting, because sometimes I have to encourage the white middle-aged guy, go on, say it. He said, yeah, but I'm really worried if I say this, I'm gonna, and then, you know, a colleague who's black were my friend, Mike, you know, from Uganda will say, we'll be having to encourage someone who's maybe black to say, hey, go on, you need to say this, you need to say how you're actually feeling. 'Cause, and then it's like allowing that to happen, allowing the conversation happen to get back to this restorative justice of, okay, so how we together, solving this versus retributive justice, which is where I think D&I's gone for, which is simple. Who's the winner, who's the loser? Let's reward the winner, let's punish. And I love your terminus. I think that's great, the restorative nature. It's a little bit like the conversation we're having before, but Jan Ziz as well, between, you know, we've swung so far on the consumerism agenda, and now you people are looking for something a little more meaningful, more spiritual, maybe in terms of purpose as well, this becomes multifaceted, of course. But I get the sense there's another panel of something in there, Matt, that you're germinating and that may, yeah, I may be book number four. - Oh, yeah, I definitely think there is, I think, so almost, I think there is a way of how, can corporates show and almost role model community for, you know, we're in the UK. We can all sense some of the tensions in the UK at the moment around, I mean, it's dubbed immigration, but actually it's deeper, it's about culture. It's about, so what is culture, everyone always says to me, what do you mean by culture, what we value and how we behave, give you a tiny landing day, right? I'm on the train, I'm white, I'm middle aged, I'm a male, I'm on the train commuting into London last week, and there's a girl quite young on her phone, very loud, from an Asian background, and she's got it on speaker, and she's talking to a mum, we can all hear, and she's the whole journey now, and I thought, I'd be so interested, I would love to just go over there with no emotion, no, just go, hey, so how society glues together, and how it works is, sorry, without saying, clearly being patronising, as it sounds, but let me start, the context I'd want to give is, hey, I want to have a chat with what's valued and how we behave, because for a society or a company to work, you have to have common values and common behaviours, and if you don't, what that starts to do is rub it each other up the wrong way, because then let's throw in someone else who comes along, the white guy who's on the phone, you know, from the 90 days, sell, sell, sell, and he's doing business, and so you got then, this young, youngster on the phone to a mum really loud, you got this, and then you've got all these people going, this is very uncomfortable, it's not an enjoyable culture to be in, thank God it's only a 20 minute commute, but imagine how I had to do this for two hours, and then what if you throw in a group of friends, let's make them boys who are swearing like that, so hence wise, society or community or a company, you have to go, what are our shared values, so what do we value, well, we value our peace, so therefore how do we behave? We recognize how loud we're being and how we're coming across when we're out in public, so we choose to have private conversation. - So does that take us back to your trilogy that you talked about in, say, companies as well? And I'm wondering if there's an example either from one of your own businesses or from a client, where you've seen us play out very successfully. - Yeah, so again, the culture leadership engagement, so how do you get everyone engaged in the debate and in the conversation, and in actually we care about society or the company, how do we then define culture so that we're all got a shared agreement on how it should be? So for example, again, having been a teenager, I remember going around the street with my hood up, and I remember an old guy getting very upset with me. Take your hood down, I was like, I was at those in Leeds where I grew up, and I was like, what is that? You're making me nervous. And I was like, isn't that interesting? It's culturally, he's thinking, hoodie, scary, I'm thinking it's cool. (laughing) I look really cool, don't I? You know, that's a great example. In my head, so I've been that side, right? And so, anyway, sorry, so you got the culture and then you've got leadership, so who leads? Who decides that? And if you're in a society that says we don't want to be led, I want to just lead myself, but I actually don't even lead myself, 'cause one of my challenges always to lead is, who's the hardest person to lead yourself? Like don't start leading until you've learned how to lead yourself. So how to manage yourself and lead yourself in a way that then you can lead others. But anyway, and is there a uniqueness about CEOs leading themselves, do you think? Well, I would say a lot haven't learned how to. Okay, no, my experience has not been amazing. There are often, well actually from two sides, you will have seen this, there are often type A leaders, although I think a lot of those have now left the building and now a lot, what I'd call left brain, come up through the CFO route, who interestingly, they're very controlled people, so they stay in control until they don't. And at that point, it's quite interesting, because that can be where they can explode and get very upset and suddenly these unhelpful behaviors come out, but the generally process, logical analytical CEOs now. And how have they learned? Yeah, some have to be fair. I don't want to, I'm thinking of the group cohort I've worked with over the probably 20 years. I'd say, let's call it a couple of hundred above the privilege of working alongside coaching quite a number. I would say they've got a persona, a mask, a mask. And they know how to put mask on and they will do it. Unfortunately, people see through that. And so they know that sometimes they're faking and it's not who they really are, but it was the next step. And so they did it. So something, what I'm saying is some of them were naturally leaders. So they're not being authentic. They're not really being who they are. Yeah, who they truly are. And that people, you don't pass a smell test, people can tell that. Of course. And then that causes its own issues, 'cause you don't know where you stand and all that sort of stuff. But back to your question, I think it's an absolute key requirement, self-awareness of leaders. And again, this is part of why folks on emotion, how am I feeling? Why am I feeling this way? What's causing me to feel this? What am I focused on right now? It's getting me so irritated or so excited. And the more people have self-awareness and can do that in themselves, the more they can be able to help others and lead better. So I would say self-awareness is one of the absolute keys of leadership. And you ask me, have I seen some good examples? Yes. Number one was again, a construction company. He was a CEO up to a couple of years ago and then actually, really interestingly, self-awareness to go, I don't necessarily want to be a CEO now. I'm going to go be a CFO again, which is the route he'd come up. And part of that was the sense of burden, probably in pressure that being CEO and not necessarily thinking that was where he wanted to be for the next period, which I really respected. It was like, a lot of people don't do that. Just carry on and we'll suffer it. But unfortunately, then they'll leak again. But the irritations will leak. Yes, and that will affect other people. Sorry to say that. But what's your privilege of coaching for about three years? And his leadership was always very self-aware. So we'd start from knowing how he was thinking and feeling. And because of that, you're not going to be able to do it. of that, it gave him great EQ because he'd know how he was coming across and how his emotions were landing with other people. And he could read other people's emotions pretty well and therefore adjust to what was required for the situation. And I think, I mean, that takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of discipline because we all want to give into ourselves. But I just really want to say this, so I just do what I'm telling you, you know, which again, probably a little bit unhelpful. So I, so I, yeah, I, I, having watched his journey and been a part of it, really what I kept doing was going, so why do you want that? It's a classic coach question, must have pissed him off to a degree, but you know, is that constant? So what's going on there? So what are you feeling right now? So how's that making you feel? Because the more, you know, what you're, what you're aware of, you control, what you're not aware of controls you. And so I was just, let's heighten your awareness and come out of sort of the, you know, unconscious traits and habits that you have, because that's one of the things I say to leaders all the time, you have so many now unconscious habits that you've just learned that we've got to get you high in your awareness again. So you're aware of the ones that are helpful on the ones that are unhelpful. And he did that really well. Now that's a nice link into Transformers CEOs. So you've, as you say, you've met hundreds of CEOs over the over the years. Yeah. What, what kind of makes a transformer CEO stand out for you? What are some of the traits, qualities, values that you, you see? Yeah, I think number one is lead yourself. I think that's absolutely critical. Number two is actually self awareness. Number three is emotional intelligence. So I think, you know, we asked the question earlier, how have we gone a bit too far into emotion and how I feel? And yes, absolutely to the point where you know, almost you can go to court because you can make someone else can go to prison because you feel a certain way, even though no crime is necessarily committed, but you know, that seems like we've gone too far. But I think having some level of emotional intelligence is critical, absolutely critical. See, how am I feeling? How am I projecting those feelings? How are they feeling? How are they projecting those feelings? How do I navigate it? It is, is really key. Transformers CEOs, they've got a cast division. They've got to have a vision, right? And I think, you know, if you look, you know, again, forgive me to use politics, but sometimes it's easier. Right now in the UK, I think this is this one of the big criticisms of the current government. And again, whether you vote for them or it doesn't matter, I think we can all see what's the vision? Yeah, we need a vision. And then once you have a vision, you got to cast it. So I would say Transformers CEOs come in and they absolutely have a vision. I think, you know, to keep it even atleast in the forties, had a very clear vision for the UK, which was we're going to bring in the NHS, we're going to build homes, we're going to bring an education system and fundamentally change the country in 45. And I think thatcher in 79, I just use that again, but people may or may not know them. But so, so you've got to have a vision. And then you've got to be able to cast that vision so that people can kind of, you know, decide whether or not to follow. But I think Transformers CEOs have that sometimes they stumble on it, by the way, I'm not saying they're born with it. I'm not saying, you know, they, they come in it straight away. Sometimes it's, it's the journey that brings out the vision in them. But, but I think that's how you can transform it. I think if you don't have, you know, what it was it, you know, trans is change, isn't it? Change form. Change form. Yeah. So, you know, and I think about companies who've, who I've worked with, who have, have, you know, gone through some transformation. I think ASOS is one of them and has, you know, very good leader during sort of five, six years who really transform into a global billion, multi-billion dollar company, know him a little bit, didn't, didn't coach him, but knew him and knew some of the journey and was very, had a real clear vision for way. Want to take the organization and do that. We can do all the famous ones, you know, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk, you know, clearly has a vision, you know, again, whether you forget his politics, what he's done with the car industry to build bottom up an electric car that until the Chinese came along was the biggest electric company in the, in the world from scratch. Yeah, it's incredible. But casting vision, having a vision, casting it. Yeah, some keys alongside some of the other stuff I said around self awareness and emotion intelligence. There's some CEOs talk about humor. Yep. As, as both an engaging quality, but also as a release from the, as you've referred to the pressures of the rule, which you felt yourself unsure as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's a double I saw it, isn't it? Because what's funny to one person is really unfunny to someone else. I, I, I am a person who has got it right and wrong on occasions with humor. And I think because there's so many overlays with humor in this culture, there's age, stage, there's your own quirks of what you think is funny. So I'm always, you've got to be pretty nailed on sure that you've got a good one. You've got a good joke coming or you've got a good, what I think, on what I would say is I would come at slight different angle. I would say self depreciating humor, particularly in the UK. And even the, well, I worked a lot in America, a lot in the Europe, particularly those two areas, you're, they actually love it. Both of Europeans and, and the Americans quite like our sort of self depreciating humor. I don't know if you ever watch slow horses on, on Apple. I mean, the whole setup is how useless we are. And yet somehow we find our way through, but the joke is kind of on us. We're making, we're laughing at ourselves. I think that is, is, is a very good. And again, it needs to be on with high self awareness to be able to be self depreciating at the right moments. Now, what about the journey to see your ship? And you know, you've talked about your own story, you're really throwing yourself into the deep end and you've very little in head to learn, head mentors and a good support network. But what are the, what are the, what are the some of the critical things that you would say, maybe in a slightly more reflective mood to senior talent who are eyeing up a transformational CEO brief? Yeah, and actually I'm working with some, I call it C-suite minus two, who next five, eight years. One is, it's incredibly lonely. It's incredibly lonely and you've got to, you've got to be comfortable with that. I think. And what I mean by that is not, when I say comfortable, you've not let it affect you, because I've seen people go, yeah, yeah, yeah, get it. And then they get in there and the loneliness affects them. How does it affect them? They've become withdrawn. They've become more irritable. They become more, just get it done. And it's actually coming from a sense of loneliness that, you know, it's just really difficult. No one's on my side. So if you like, they default to some unhelpful behaviors. So you've got to go and going, eyes open. I'm okay with this because I'm really wanting to transform. I'm wanting to do something special here. I wanted to do something that has impact and positive impact for people. So I think that's key. I think the second thing is, say this carefully, who leads you? Have you been led? Because it's really helpful to be led, because then you work out what works and what doesn't. You know, you see it. And again, quite a few people haven't, they've had a manager, but that's different. You know, they've had a leader, but that's different. Have you allowed yourself to be led where you've gone along with someone else's vision? I have. A couple of times in my personal life, I've set up some quite significant charities, you know, impacted hundreds and hundreds of kids in York we worked with through the council. And it was a local faith-based organization. And it was because the minister had a vision. I had to allow him to leave me. Did I like everything and the way he did everything? No. Did I think at times it was over just a OTT and all the rest, but wow, you know, there was thousands of young people in York over a decade who instead of just hanging out on streets or through to being put in expulsion or isolation at school, they would work with the charity that he set up and helped run. So that taught me an awful lot, which is no one ever gets anything right. So that was really helpful to go. I'm not going to give everything right when I get to lead, learn to apologize, make sure accounts. He was he was very good at doing that to be fair to him. He would always say, yep, sorry, had that idea. It was completely awful. Didn't work at all. And we'd, you know, just and move on. So be led. I mean, and I'm saying, I'm emphasizing this, Eric, because I actually don't think a lot of people are led. They have a leader who they report to, but they're not leading them, and they're not allowing them to lead them. So I would encourage you, you'll know when you are, because you'll do things that you wouldn't necessarily want to do. I'm talking about within the safe boundaries, and you'll try things. that you probably wouldn't try to do, because you think, "Well, I'm gonna let them." - And when you're at C or minus two, you've got plenty of time to do that, to practice. - Yeah, absolutely. - And I can hear you doing it as you describe that minister, you're reflecting on what he didn't well. I think it's a he. - Yeah, it wasn't that he did well on what he didn't. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wrote him a letter, actually, after I left, and it was great just to cathartically say, "Hey, I'm okay saying these are the things "I thought were mad." (laughing) And actually, these are things were phenomenal. And I really appreciate that I got to experience both. - And I bet he did too. - Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. (laughing) - So Matt, to wrap up our conversation, a few questions, and actually, and you're getting a deep thinking around CEOs, you've already touched on some of these points, but I just wanna try and deal them with you. So the first question is, our transformer CEO is born or bred. - Oh, I actually think he's a mix. I think there are just awesome people who are naturally visionary, good, it's kind of in there. I can see, I've got three sons. I can see one of my sons is more, that seems to be naturally in there. That makes sense so that I can see some board, but it's absolutely, it can be bred. Don't well, but that requires that person to allow themselves to really learn and grow, absolutely. - And transformer CEOs is a one-time thing, or once you've got the drug here, you're kinda hooked. - I think it's, well, I'm gonna give two cents here. I think what I agree with you, it's quite hard once you've had the drug, and you've seen the positive impact. You kinda wanna do it again, and maybe even on a bigger scale. That's not ego, by the way. - If it's that, and again, we can all think it's in politicians, you know? Long hair, big ambitions, no longer prime minister. I would say there's all sorts going on there that isn't necessarily, oh, I've had a real positive impact and I want to have them all. I think R is more ego-driven. And I would say it's good to have gone through some failures and learned through that. And, and then this bit, I say carefully, being a transformer CEO, even on a small scale, or a very sort of Elon Musk type of scale, you become very wired. And what do I mean by wired? Cortisol is going through your body all the time. Your frequency is quite high, and I'm sure you experience this when you were, you know, HOD for a very large company. That's okay. And part of the journey is learning, to speak more at peace as you go through that. And I'd love to see you come into it already at peace and zen-like and lead like that. The journey does it for you. And the point I'm trying to make is before you go again, and I'm thinking of a couple of friends here who've done some really transformation things, they're going straight again. And my advice to them was, give yourself a year. - Yeah. - The very least, give yourself six months, because your perspective will change. What about the demand for transformer CEOs rising or falling, staying the same? - Wow, this is interesting, Eric. 'Cause I think Gen Z actually wants, I think they are in the pendulum swing of those millennials, you know, they went too far against leadership and I'm on the cusp of millennial and Gen X. So I can sort of swing out of the way. So it's not so much criticism, it's observation that millennials were much more of, don't tell me what to do. I'll do my own thing. It's how I feel they're the big broad brushstrokes. As well as being very passionate, you know, and some of the things that they've sort of got into and driven. I think Gen Z though is looking, going, this seems to have gone a bit too far into the, we all do our own thing, we're all our own individuals, nothing matters except what I think matters. So I actually think, that's all to say, I think we're gonna see people saying, I want to be involved in some transformational things. I want to see at a micro level or a macro level of the nation or a micro level of my own little businesses. I wanna do some awesome things and take some people with me. And honestly, there's nothing better than having a, I'd call a gang when you've got your gang. You agree whether that's 1,000 people or 50 people. And you're on a mission, you've got a vision, and you're all aligned. I mean, I can feel it now, you know, it's so exciting. And I think there's so many people who've missed out on that 'cause they've gone, no, I just do my own little thing. And I'll start to say on the side of that, actually. So I actually think you're gonna see more leaders emerging over the next five, 10 years with big visions, big ideas of transforming both corporate and the business, and they will hopefully be allowed and lead well, you know. So the be allowed is, you know, people gotta say, okay, lead, but also they then need to lead well. And what about reward for these guys? Do they have a premium, do you think? I'm, we're in a capitalist society. Capital society has been the best structure form system to remove poverty. Does it have downside to yes? Do people get to the point, you know, Musk is gonna get a trillion? I mean, what was I even mean? Is it so ridiculous? And as he said down on the podcast, you know, I don't think even House, he has one house or a condo or something, you know. Now, of course, he stay wherever he wants and all the rest, but my point being is, I still think the capitalist system is the best, ultimately for reducing poverty and bringing people into better outcomes. Absolutely. Does it have excesses that from time to time, governments need to rein in, yes. Do I think governments are going too far in the West on some of that? In terms of some of taxation and, you know, I know people today, gosh, five, early 30 somethings, you've left the UK, gone to Portugal and gone, this is not for, 'cause I don't think I'm going to get renumerated well enough, or this system over here is gonna take so much of my money, 50%, that, by the way, that's a failing system, why would I ever, 'cause, you know, this is difficult for entrepreneurs who, you know, why would I give that amount of money to a system that is literally wasting it in front of my eyes? So I would always lean towards, I believe, capitalism is the best system. I think people should be rewarded. Do some of the, should some of the excesses? Well, you know, it's an interesting point, actually, if you go back, it was the Quakers. So I think Barclays, I think Roundtrees, I think Cadbury's. They set up towns, they set up villages, they paid their workers phenomenally well, they set up health clubs, and they did that, because the state didn't, what we've moved to now, but they were, you know, they gave money to it. Well, what we've done now is go, oh, the state just does all that. And I think, I think sometimes, actually individuals are better to maybe do some of that rather than just think the state point at all. What a great point, but anyway. And what's next for you? 'Cause you've sold your business? Yes. And so you're investing in other businesses now, you're continuing to support transformers, CEOs in various forums? Yeah. I'm having a lot of fun, Erica. I came off my cortisol levels. I did, I took my own advice. I took a year to wander around. I did some good traveling, being honest, 'cause I didn't, I went straight from university to work and we had kids where we were very young and all the rest, so I've literally just been, so I did a little bit of travel this year. And really two or three things. So one is, I think there's definitely another play in me. I think, you know, A.I. is something around that, but I like A.I. and human. I know you look at the two together and how we can overlay them in a way that's complimentary, which I think we can. So I mean, all sorts of conversations with different people who just, I mean, I get so many opportunities put in front of me. People send to me to kind of go, do you want to invest, invest to decks and all the rest? But, so, so kind of what I'm really enjoying is, I'm still a little bit involved with impulse, which is doing a great job at continuing the journey of how do we influence and how do we continue with the story, stories evolved a bit from, because emotions is kind of done. So it's moved more and more, how do we get managers to be the real center point of transformation in an organization, by having the conversations, which often leads up skilling and all the rest. And yeah, I'm invested. I'm going on the wild, crazy roller coaster of investing in others, which is infuriating, wonderful, maddening, as you have to sort of almost let go of the money and forget that bit and just enjoy the ride of other people's journey. One thing I would say, by the way, entrepreneur, certainly an entrepreneur, you have to be able to sell. So in a sense, to be a transformer, you've got an idea to sell. I'm not talking about even selling a widget or a, you just got to know how to sell for me, in other words, is influence. You have to know how to influence people. And I've made some mistakes where I've invested in entrepreneurs who I then realized, they were the idea person or the product person, they weren't the influencer. And honestly, I never do again. Anyone I invested has to be able to sell. Otherwise, you don't do it. So yeah, so having a lot of fun and investing in that, seeing what comes on my desk and then saying, "I'm involved in impulse." Amazing, amazing. Well, listen, Matt, first of all, massive thank you for me. It's, there's been an amazing conversation. And I love the way you've blended your own experiences as a transformer CEO with the work you've done with, hundreds of others all across the world as well and brought that to life. But you've also brought a really interesting kind of societal, generational, political, spiritual kind of angle to the conversation as well, which has been amazing. So thanks for having me on it. Thank you very much for your time.