From Starving Artists to Fulfilled Creators: How a Sculptor and an Animator Use Buddhism to Succeed

From SGI USA, I'm Cassidy Bradford and this is bootability. The weekly series where I talk with Buddhists from all walks of life about the power we each have to change our lives and the world around us. Both Buddhism and art are about giving full expression to our humanity. The Buddhist philosopher, Daisakulikeda, often talked about the importance of having a poetic spirit and the power of art and culture to create peace. While many of us may appreciate art in whatever form it takes, there may be fewer of us who make creating it their life's focus. For some, it might just be that we love art and even creating it but want to dedicate ourselves to other things. But for some, even if you feel called to devote your life to art, the reality of doing so feels nearly impossible. It's no secret that making a living as an artist is tough. Today, you'll hear from two full-time artists, Leo Matsuda, a successful animator and feature length film director from LA, and Brian N. Wright, an accomplished metal worker and sculptor from Oakland. The three of us sat down to discuss how Buddhism informs their work and ultimately has been the key to their success. And as a reminder, all our interviews are also available as videos on our YouTube channel, so you can find a link for that in this episode's show notes. All right, enjoy the show. Welcome to bootability, Leo and Brian. It's great to have you here. I know you're both busy, Brian, you're traveling, Leo, you just finished work. Thank you so much for making time for this conversation. So today's episode is going to be about art and Buddhism and also like living as an artist and a Buddhist. So to kick things off, you know, I'll just have you guys both introduce yourselves. You can share a little bit about who you are and also your journey to like how you started pursuing art. So I think, Brian, I'll give it to you to start things off. So my background is actually, I studied cognitive science in human computer interaction. I was a pre-med student to go to those classes at the MCAT and after college, I worked doing UX UI usability for a pretty brief time like a year and a half. I, you know, I learned the things that I thought were interesting pretty quickly. And at that period of time in my life, you know, the paths of growth in that world were not what I was interested in, you know. And so I was pretty clearly not thriving and a few things happened at that time. You know, I recognized that in myself and I was like, I need to make a change. And I also read a book called Cradle to Cradle, which is all about like redesigning the way that we make things. So instead of a cradle to grave model, it's, you know, in that book, they coined the term the circular economy. And when I read it, you know, it was like reading my own thoughts, you know, and I was 25, I was at this spot where I was like, I'm just kind of here because it's comfortable in a paycheck and, you know, like it's my passion. And so I decided to leave that and I first went to Alaska and worked as a mountaineering guy. I went and lived at the end of a 66 mile dirt road. This was 2006. So reuse was not like a term people were using, but it was just a way of life. And so, you know, there's a cost to bring everything down the road. There's a cost for it to leave. And so if anything retains value, it's going to stick around. And so I was kind of like steeped in that. And then I came back to Oakland, I guess I should say I'm from Oakland, California. And I took my first class in metal working at a nonprofit industrial art school in Oakland. And I wanted to give using my hands a shot, you know, I'd always been creative. My mom's a dance instructor. I like knew what it was to be in flow state and think and live creatively. My mom was raised on a dairy farm in Minnesota. So I'd go back, I'd see my cousins working with their hands. I'm like, man, there's so many other things you can do or other paths in life. And so, you know, I'd taken witch up in high school and I was like, I'm comfortable around machines. I've got an idea to create furniture out of car chassis and biodegradable hemp rope. And I have no idea how to do that. So I'm going to go and take a class and start learning in that class. I very quickly learned that it's ambitious to work in car chassis because you need something bigger than a car to carry it, to travel with it. So I switched gears and I made a couple different end tables and one of those tables was built out of a salvaged structural IBM. And there was a woman in the class with me and she was, you know, in her 70s and she was like. And you finish that, I'll buy it from you. And so it was, you know, exactly the sort of encouragement that I needed at the time to keep going and really felt like that was a yes from the universe, you know, of like, okay, she was like, this is the first thing you designed in metal. This is awesome. You found what you're supposed to do, keep going. So so that's a little how I got into art, I think we can maybe touch on other stuff later. I want to go to you, too. Yeah. Thank you so much, Brian. Yeah, I should say like, you know, there's, I think for both of you started practicing Buddhism after you started pursuing art, we can cover like, yeah, the, the journey up until the point where you're like, oh, Buddhism, maybe I'm going to bring that into my life. So, um, so Leo, I'll turn it over to you. What was your journey to discovering you're an artist? Yes. Well, yeah, I think for me, I was always, you know, spiritual growing up and I was born in some Paulo, Brazil, you know, and I was exposed to so many different religions, you know, in Brazil. But the focus was always outside of myself. You know, it was like this. I was this exterior forest that would save me, you know, so I kind of grew up with that, you know, um, and, uh, at the same time, I was just, I always loved to draw, you know, since I was a toddler, I just, I just love to, to, to draw cartoons and I never knew, uh, first I wanted to be an astronaut, you know, I, that's what I wanted to be, but then, then I realized that people make money, making cartoons, you know, so I was like, what, you know, and then I was like, man, and then I, like, learn about the, you know, as, I think it was more when I was a little older, probably around 17 that I started to kind of really see that as a career, you know, like, and, um, yeah, and then I, I decided to, like, all that I would love to do animation and a lot of, to, to see my drawings and movement, you know, and, um, yes, so then I, I, um, at first, you know, I went to industrial design school in Brazil, you know, that's my first bachelor that I got there. Uh, but I think at that time, we didn't have like, um, animation school, you know, in my time, now there's so many, you know, but at the time, we didn't have it, so that's why I went to industrial design because it was the closest. And, uh, but, but eventually, like, I, when I graduated, I thought, you know, I realized how hard it was the reality in Brazil is really difficult, you know, to get a job in animation. Um, it was just really hard, you know, so I kind of felt, then, okay, this is the time for me to, to leave and, you know, like, I tried to do this little faith, make my dreams a reality. So I kind of left, yeah, I left Brazil and, um, and I thought it was going to be, I was very idealistic and I was too young, you know, I was like in my early 20s and I thought everything was going to work out. You know, I was like, you know, everyone, if you fight for dreams, you know, you're going to realize them. So anyway, long story short, I was able to eventually get to, you know, to call art. This is great animation school because I didn't have the, the, the calibre yet, you know, to get a job. So that, that's, that started the reality start to kick in, you know, how I realized, okay, it's not going to be as easy as I thought it was, you know, and, uh, but it was a very expansive school for me. So I, I didn't really could quite like afford it, you know, and it was a foreign urge. So I couldn't, I didn't have the financial, like, you know, uh, my financial situation wasn't really favorable at all, and, uh, uh, but then my, my parents really like green supporting me. They said, okay, we'll help you, you know, in order to do that, they loan their home, you know, so it was like, it was a huge kind of risk, not only mine, and it was their risk. So I couldn't fail. Failure, that didn't not exist in my, you know, in my really vocabulary. So I really work really hard, you know, I actually built a really strong portfolio. You know, I got a lot of attention, a lot of studios and, uh, but what happened is that, uh, I had a lot of struggles with my visa, you know, because I'm a, I'm a foreigner. So, and that was just really hard at a time, you know, in, um, around 2008, you know, that's when I graduated. So everything was kind of sparring down, you know, so like all that dream come true, kind of think that, that kind of optimism was all kind of went downhill, you know, so I kind of like really realized, okay, there's a reality, you know, in this world, it's, it's just, when people succeed, others just, you know, they just somehow fail their life. You know, and that's it, you know, and, um, so I was like this victim, you know, I was like, you know, really like victimizing myself. I was very open to religion. I was very religious, you know, like spiritual, you know, and, and I always want to try Buddhism. So, yeah, that, you know, and I, long so short, I, I start practicing this Buddhism here in the U.S. and, uh, what helped me was to, that ideal, like, seeing things outside of myself, you know, that something that I changed, because I realized I'm the captain of my ship, you know, I'm the one that can change anything. And that was like the beginning of it, how everything shifted in my life, you know, that was kind of like how I was able to make it somehow here in the U.S. and at the beginning, you know, the beginning. But anyway, that, yeah, yeah, I thought it was so funny. That, you know, you were pursuing, I'm thinking about, like, astronaut and then, like, oh, wait, I can make money, you know, with animation. But then the reality is like, well, maybe that's so easy to make money. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, that kind of, like, brings to the, you know, next question that I had for you guys is, you know, both of you decided to start practicing or testing out Buddhism because you were struggling, like, how do I really live my life as an artist? And I think both for, like, different, had different kind of obstacles to that. But I'm wondering if each of you can share, you know, the stories of how and why you started practicing Buddhism. And I think maybe we can have Brian Chair first. Yeah. Leo, it's so cool to hear this, like, I'm just so happy to be here because I'm like, oh, it's so long in the year and I'm like, the reflected stories, you know, so, yeah, you know, I, you know, so I left my safe job, right, and I start on this path, right? And I hadn't gone to art school. I just dove in. I was, I was taking classes at that school and then I became an instructor. I was teaching welding and welded sculpture. And when I got into it, I just really wanted to learn metal, like, top to bottom. So I was making jewelry. I was doing blacksmithing, foundry. I was making large-scale interior design stuff, industrial design stuff, you know, furniture, all kinds of things. I was making no money at all. I was like, hold on, just at that period of time, I actually had very much, like, bought into the romanticized idea of, like, a starving artist. And then my struggle was where this, my good work was going to come from. And so I wasn't interested in how to be successful or make money. Similarly, to what Leo said, like, you know, I was just, I was believing in this thing that I had heard from society, right, which is, if you do this thing that you love, that you're called to do, it's going to work out. Like the money is going to come, you know, I saw a lot of people who were, like, jerks in society, making a lot of money. And I was like, actively trying to not be a jerk, you know, I'm like, I'm a good person or trying to be, I'm doing what I love, it's not working. And it's like, it wasn't like six months. I did this for seven years, you know, each time I'd make a little bit of money, it would just, I'd go back to zero, I was already owed to somebody else. So I was really starting to lose hope in society, in myself, the way I was kind of coping with that was, like, drinking and, you know, just, like, I was living the artist's life and that was awesome. And my art was really the one thing keeping me going. It was the one thing I knew I was like, when I'm doing this, I feel alive. And that's so clear, but I don't know how to make it work. I was also seeking, you know, I've always been very spiritual person. I was raised Christian, I was raised Lutheran, and still have a good relationship with the pastor who I got confirmed with. He's awesome. He's a total bodhisattva. And so I was seeking in all different ways, you know, I was looking for truth. Whether it was different philosophies, whether it was psychedelics, whether it was meditation, whether it was whatever. And the way that I was introduced to this Buddhism, right, was I was actually in the second ignant American TV ceremony that I had sat in. And the person next to me was an elder, and they were also a member. And so in the morning, I walk out, and she starts to talk to me about Namilho Rangakil. And, you know, I'm someone that, at that period of time, even though I was like seeking in spiritual, I was also a super skeptical, so skeptical. So I was like, anybody who was coming at me with anything, it's like, I was like, I want to hear it. But then if you say you're part of an organization, I'd be like, oh, sweet, you're crazy. And so I can, I don't have to listen to anything you just said, and now I can leave and continue going about staying in the same place, not growing. But, you know, I'd just been through this experience, and my heart was kind of open, and I was seeing this person in front of me as a person, and I was like, she's very interesting. And what she's talking about is very interesting. And so maybe I'll put my doubting mind over here, you know, and she's like, you should, you should chant. It was like around solstice of 2012. So New Year's of 2013, she was like, you should go check out chanting. So, you know, I said, sure, she had a friend who got in touch with me and confirmed me to go. And I was like, okay. And then she called me again to reconfirm me, and which is really smart, because I was a young man, you know, and I'm like, New Year's Day, like 11 or 1, or like whatever time I was like, I probably won't be able to make it like, only partying the night before, you know, and she said something that struck me, you know, she was like, there will always be an obstacle to your enlightenment. There will always be something else that comes up or something else you can do because you're trying to do something good for yourself and and make a change in the aspects of your life that want to keep you small and keep you from changing in a positive way, or going to show up. And so to me, I was like, man, I'm getting stabbed up by some old lady on the phone, I never even met. I was like, fine, open there, you know? And then I had to look at myself and I was like, I just told two different people three times that I would go do this. And I going to be a man in my word, or am I going to be what I call a California frosted flake, which was, you know, I was, I was a total flake at the time, and it was something I wanted to change, and I didn't know how to change. So I was like, wow, before even knowing about cause and effect, I'm like, this is something I can do. You just said you'd be there, be there. And she said, all you have to do if you want to be there is commit with your heart and your mind and nothing can stop you. And so that was what I did. And that got me to my first meeting. I can share more after that, but I feel like that's a good, like, yeah, starting point and showing like your internal, internal world. What about you Leo? Yeah, you know, yeah, I know like a similar, you know, to Brian Chu, I'm, yeah, I'm very like skeptical, like I was very skeptical, even after what happened to me, you know, but really I think that this, when I start practicing, this boot is my, like, like what Brian said, like when I put my, my mind and my heart in it, you know, really, I could see the, that this works, that my practice actually was making a huge effect in my life. For everything transformed, I was able to, you know, get my visa, I was able to get a job at this studio that I really wanted to, you know, that I was my dream, you know, and I was able to be hired for this company. And so much that my parents actually, they are the ones that loan their home, right? They actually saw the changing me, that what's happening in my environment, that they chose to become, to join SGI. So they really, because it was so, you know, it was, I mean, they couldn't have, you know, lost their home, you know, it's like they're everything they have, their livelihood. And so the fact that I was, somehow I was able to turn it around, definitely like was an actual proof, you know, it was a way to show them that this, instead of just telling them, you know, they saw it with their own eyes, they saw that there's something very special about this position. That was my first, and one of, I still one of the most powerful, like, things I saw, you know, it was like, I think I was so sincere, you know, I was like, you know, what Brian said, I was seeking so much that I really, my entire heart and my, my, you know, my mind was, was that moment, you know, so I was able to see this huge kind of like change in my life. After like a few years of my practice, you know, I started wanting to, I found out that I wanted to focus on directing, you know, and I decided to actually to leave my job, you know, this studio, you know, and so it was a really risky move, you know, because, you know, I, I was a career that I really like took a really long time to build, but I really like, I know, after chanting, you know, I'm hearing a kill, I am truly reflecting over my life, you know, I, I was just determined that, that I should really not let that fear, you know, like of me, stability, you know, like just being, feeling comfortable and I kind of felt okay, now is the time for my next, you know, thing so, then I'm doing this leap of faith. Because in the end, I feel like when you practice booties and, right, it's, it's not just to get by, right? You know, practice to, to make the impossible possible, otherwise we don't need to, right? I think that they hope we can get by otherwise, yeah, yeah, we can get by, we don't need anything, but this Buddhism just to really, anything you want to make happen, right? Like, possible, I think this is the practice. And anyway, so that was my next stage, you know, which I think was really challenging for me and, but, but I think I would never have gotten that courage if I didn't have, like, see the results, you know, in my own life, you know, yeah, yeah, you know, hearing this makes me think of, there's a friend of mine that's also in Brooklyn and she just moved here and she finished her MFA program and she really wants to become a full-time artist and she practices as well. And so she has this like, really like deep sense of like, this is what I'm going to do, but she's really battling that kind of like, but how do I actually make it happen? You know, like, I know that this is what I want, but like, all of the things in my environment or from society are telling me like, there's basically no way to make this happen. I think that's probably a very common experience for folks and you know, she's also from a different country, so she has that aspect as well. And Leo, you shared a little bit about, you know, taking a leap of faith to pursue directing and I know Brian, you have an experience too about like, really solidifying your career. So I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit more about that, like, based on your own experience, but also like any artist listening, like, how do you go from, I really want to do this to actually making it real? Yeah, that's, that's such a good question, because, you know, I mean, I think it's something that all artists, I mean, it had already been seven years before I started chanting. And the number of times, even after I started chanting, where it just gets so challenging and like, confusing, right? We're like, I'm called to do this, but I don't see the way forward. I don't see how, you know, I know what I want. There was a guidance that I remember from my mentor, Daisakuri Keda, that, you know, he shared that basically like our mission as individuals, right, is to figure out why we are here, like, what is our purpose? What is it that we can do that will create, provide the most value to the most people in our lives, right? And it's something we genuinely want. Even if you come to understand what that is, right? If you're fortunate enough to be like, yes, this is my mission in life. This is what I wanted to. He says, the first step is not always clear. And what he said to do in those situations is to conquer the mountain that is right in front of you. So whatever it is, like for me, in having a big goal, right, that's the thing that has helped me so much, was setting an impossible goal. And I didn't know how to achieve. And in 2020, we were encouraged to set an impossible goal towards 2030 and take 10 years to chant and take action to make it a reality. And there was a friend of mine in this Buddhism who said, you know, because you've set the goal and you're chanting for it and you're making causes and you're taking action, you can't screw up enough for it not to happen. That's really reassuring. I was like, wow. So I can't, there's no wrong step because part of faith in this practice, right, is that like the goal came out of our life, right? That's why we set the goal, came from each one of us, our goals. So the challenge also came out of our life, whatever it is we're challenging. And so yes, we need to keep taking action towards that thing in the best way that we know, but we need to continue winning over whatever is showing up right now because it's showing up with a deep reason that that's something I need to change in my life. This is what I need to work on even though it doesn't seem like it. If I knew how to get to my goal, I would just go do it. But the reason it's an impossible goal is from the mindset I'm in right now. And as we grow, our mindset changes and that thing that seems impossible becomes possible. But the only way to grow is by overcoming challenges. So like basically when you're setting a goal, you don't know how to achieve, you're effectively asking the universe, like send me the exact challenge that I didn't know I needed to grow in the way I didn't know I needed to grow to be able to achieve this thing. I don't know how to achieve from where I'm at. But most people don't want to hear, oh, hey, guess what? You should love and appreciate your challenges because they're going to get you there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Leo, do you have anything that you wanted to add on to that? No, that's, that's, you know, amazing, totally agree. I left my job that provides some security, not even the industry is really secure. But I had some kind of like security in a sense, but then like I feel like leaving that. And I, you know, I had this booties, you know, I had, I had like this community, you know, and so I was, I was feeling very confident, you know, I had everything planned. I didn't just leave my job like to this person when I really had everything planned out and I made sure, okay, if I go to the other side, you know, I'm going to have like real firm, you know, soil, you know, for me to step on. You know, I didn't really just do, so what happened is that something that I thought would take like three months, you know, eventually it took like six months, you know, eventually became a year, eventually became two years, and eventually it became like 10 years, you know. So it became 10 years of this battle of me trying to be a director and not being able to, you know, so it was like, like, just like Brian said, many times I've, I felt confused, you know, even though having this practice, it's okay for us sometimes, we're trying to find a path sometimes a curve ball is thrown in you, right? So I think it's okay for you to feel a little bit like, well, no, I don't know what to do right now, but then because I have the support of this community, it's like a compass, you know, that I kind of, even though I, I lose my way, I find my way again. So I think because of the, my mentor, Lesaki Keita, Chu, you know, and all his guidance, you know, and I think this community that never gives up on you. So I think for me, you know, after I've seen my actual proof in my first, you know, in the beginning of my practice, this was like, I think a big task for me, you know, in a sense where I needed to really, it was like a really long period, you know, where I had to kind of consistently continue no matter what, even through moments that are really challenging, you know, that I felt like giving up, you know, but because of, again, because of my mentor, Lesaki Keita, because of this Buddhist community, I was able to continue somehow, you know, in this path and like I always look for what, how can I create the most value, you know, because I could have the tries to either give up and realize you, you're not made for this, you know, or like, oh, there's no way you can achieve anything that's impossible, you know, or I can choose the other way, you know, to create value, you know, you know, and I think it is not easy, you know, it is right. So that's why we call practice, right, is this Buddhism is a practice, but that was something that was really challenging, you know, like for, so for this 10 years, you know, it was something that I kept battling, you know, and I feel it's important is that you make concrete efforts, right? Because Buddhism is not magic too. Buddhism is not, it's not that you're going to, you know, chant and chant, I'm hearing you kill that, right, things are going to fall on your lap and, you know, like, it's like just like what Brian was saying, the right path will, the path that you really need will come to you, you know. But yeah, you still have to make concrete efforts and second, it's like, have confidence in yourself, you know, because for me, like, having a consistent Buddhist practice and centering my life on my Buddhahood, you know, has helped me never lose confidence in myself through this, like, hard moments, you know, that I wasn't sure, you know. So I have challenges, one is still, like I mentioned, but I always have this compass and this wonderful Buddhist community, you know, that helped me navigate to this challenge. Yeah. Well, I'm just thinking like 10 years is a long time to be like really fighting toward this dream and like Brian sharing, having a big, big dream that feels like I have no idea how I'll get there, but that being the thing that like really helps you propel your life forward and something I've been thinking about really is that having a Buddhist practice helps you really see like you have grit, you can just like keep pushing even in the moments where you don't think you have anything left or it might on the surface feel like I'm not moving forward. I'm not pushing forward, but still like, you know, as long as your heart is still working toward that dream, you know, and you're still chanting toward that, your life is definitely moving forward and I was wondering, Brian, I know you had like a kind of more recent experience related to sculptures and career and stability, so I'd love to hear your some of that. Totally. Yeah. Thank you. Effectively, right? I've tried all these different ways to become successful as an artist. So that was one of the things that did shift for me when I started chanting, right? Instead of being like, oh, I'm not interested in success, I was like, success is actually, it's important for me to become successful because through that, I'll be able to encourage all these other artists, all these other young people, right? Instead of like someone who's just not interested in success is like, it's, yeah, it's not super inspiring. It's like, oh, cool. I can see that all over the place. So yeah, like try all these different ways. I own my own business, making custom railing stores, kids furniture, one off stuff. I made commission sculpture, I like, I work in on projects that go to Burning Man, these different Burning Man art cars and have been the lead for this crazy car that goes out there. So, you know, whatever, just try all these different things. So in 2020, I set my goal, right? Which was to create a noticeable positive impact on American culture and our relationship to single use products and things at the end of their lifespan, hence how we design and our relationship to this mother earth. And I had no idea how to do that. And so I set that goal and then 2020 happened. So it seemed like everything was going backwards. But right around that time, someone was introduced to me who became my business partner. And that thing that I was initially starting with him and that business was a, like a weekend intensive welding workshop, right, for individuals. And so, you know, we were, we couldn't hold any workshops for two years. So we were just building the business, right? And that was the kind of like, we're just going to keep meeting every week, you know, let's just keep building the business. We have this time. And we put together a couple of those at my shop and they were cool, but it's like a lot of work to wrangle, like four to six individuals to come in. And so it was not consistent, right? This thing that we really wanted. I think another thing that I will add to the, you know, having that goal is really important. But I had that goal for a couple of years. And then 2023 happened and I was like, I truly want to respond to my mentor, right? There's someone who has worked every second of their life, you know, to create value, to share this thing that has helped so many people and has helped me in my life so much, I want to respond to that. And I can't just say, like, oh, I have this goal and it's going to happen, you know, it's like, I need to like rack my brain. I applied something called the impact filter, which is like on any, for any sort of thing, I asked three questions, but it's like, what's the best possible outcome of this thing? What happens if I do nothing? And what must be true for that best possible outcome to happen? And so I was like, okay, to make an impact on American culture, Fortune 15, Fortune 500 companies need to adopt an espouse, this philosophy because they're the ones creating all this stuff that goes under our feet, and they're the ones driving all the marketing for what we buy. And so I was like, how do I get in with them? And I had an idea to make sculptures out of their material, right? They would live on their campus. And that's great, but I was not some successful sculptor who could like walk in the door and be like, hey, check out my awesome idea. I want this, that's going to be great for you. And so, but I had that kind of like simultaneously, as I was building this other business, and my business partner is in these different corporate boardrooms and he's like, man, everything you're talking about around sustainability and cause an effect. These are like the same words being used in these different boardrooms. And he's like, I think it'd be like now is the time for us to really move into like a corporate team building, because that was sort of like we were going to build the individual one first and then we do the team build or build something successful, but it's like, man, I'm down. And you know, one of my business coaches had said like, it's arguably the same amount of effort to work with a corporate company as it is to wrangle all these people, but you can 10 acts what you make in a year. So I was like, all right, well, that's not better. So I was like, let's go for it, you know? And so what we did was we came up with a blend of these things. We teach corporate team building workshops to a company where we'll go to them, set up a shop, run, you know, 50 people or however many people through, they learn to weld, they weld up a frame, they flip those frames over, then they attach material from their company that is destined for the landfill into those frames. Then I take all those frames back to my shop and build a large scale sculpture out of them and then ship it back and install it in the lobby of the headquarters of this company. And so that just happened this year, we pitched that idea for two and a half years. So again, like needing to have the perseverance during that time where like it took three years to go from impossible to possible in my mind, then it took, you know, it's like, now we just need to do the work, okay, now we pitched it for two years, then we landed our first contract. So we just did this out in Nashville and it was super successful. Everybody who was a part of it was just like out of blast, you know, and then they got to be a part of something that lives on at their company for like the lifetime of their company, you know, and it's right there. First thing you see when you walk in the lobby, you know, I mean, so, yeah, that was a huge breakthrough and this is like the start. So now we're back to pitching and sales cycle and all that. So yeah. Wow. Wow. So cool. Wow. So, so cool. And I, something that was honestly so encouraging to me was when he said it took me three years to go from impossible to possible like in my mind because sometimes I can feel like, oh, why is it so hard to like pull this like strong determination and really feel like I can do this for just where I'm out of my life right now that was like so, so great to hear. Oh, good. Thank you for sharing. And, you know, you shared a little bit like when you started practicing one of the things that shifted for you was like, oh, actually, I do want to be successful because I want to be able to like have this impact. And so for you, Leo, I'm wondering when you started practicing, did you notice like any shifts in yourself as an artist and like the way you thought about your work? Yeah, I know, absolutely, because, you know, as an artist, I tend to be very like selfish, you know, I think a lot about myself, you know, I was talking about me as my art, you know, and, you know, it's not even something that's bad, but it gets as artists, right? That's a big part of what we are. To boot is my realize that I was almost like, we call it like our lesser selves, you know, I was leaving into this shell, you know, and I had so much more potential, but I was always limiting myself. I was like, I don't have, I don't have time to practice boot is you know, I have to like study, uh, filmmaking, you know, or the days, isn't it? And, you know, of course, you know, if you think about logically speaking, right, we have just 24 hours a day, you know, but, uh, but I do feel like once I start really using my practice and my work, I feel like I, I expanded my life. Because, you know, we're all interconnected, right? Through Buddhism, we say that everything is interconnected. So at the moment, I started to like caring for other people, you know, that I started to see beyond myself. That I started giving time of myself to really support someone, you know, so for like something that creates value, I felt that that I was expanding my life, you know, and so that, that was something that Buddhism helped me a lot to understand how to be more productive in that sense, to do more, you know, to be able, because instead of, I was just very limiting, you know, every time I was like, no, there's no way I cannot do that. I, and I was always like running against that line, you know, and I think through Buddhism, yeah, to Buddhism really, you know, and there's no like, you know, what we discussed for it, there's no really a logic because it's a faith base, you know, if you start thinking about like the logic side, you just limit yourself, right? So I think Buddhism helped me understand things in that way, you know, and yeah, so that's I think that's what's being helped me a lot, yeah. If, if I can follow up on that, I, it's just, you know, like, right, we were pitching that thing for two years, two and a half years, right? But when we actually landed it, just like we were saying, right, what was the change that I made in my life that had that change, right? Because we weren't doing anything different, right? So, and it was, there was, you know, in November, we have our anniversary meeting and, you know, make a lot of causes towards that, you know, supporting others and young people. And I was really, really pushing hard at that time, like ask myself, like if my life depended upon this meeting, right, being successful, you know? And, you know, throughout the area where I am, am I fighting like that, you know, how can I fight like that when I went in like that with my own life and my own causes and that, that sort of determination, just like Leo is saying, it's like that change, it was right at that time, you know, we met with head of HR two weeks later, we have the second call and you know? So totally agree with you. Yeah, amazing, yeah, no, no, yeah, totally, yeah, I feel like for me too, like it's, you know, it was like this 10-year journey, you know, and I think, many times I, you know, like reality kicks in, you know, and I was like, man, you know, like I'm making so many calls and I'm really like, really going out there and helping us. Why is it that in my life is not changing, you know, and, but one thing I felt it was like incredible is that I think what kept me going, you know, all these years, it was the fact that many times I would feel like at home, you know, and I would have took me to be support another Buddhist friend, you know, and I would have to support my community, my friends, my neighborhood, you know? And, but then I, I, to be honest with you, many times I was just not feeling well in myself. At that time, I was really struggling to even like, going, you know, like visiting another person because I felt like a hypocrite, I was like, how can I encourage someone, you know, and, you know, and I was like, but then really like or or mentor, right, talks about how courage equals compassion, right, and I really like sometimes they're not feeling well, you know, to do something, but, but you have to have the courage, you know? And once you do that, the compassion comes, you know, and so that's what I was doing. I would go, even though I was suffering, I would go out of my way and really, you know, encouraging under person, even though I probably was suffering more than that person, you know, but I would go, but then what, every time I would do that, like something would happen, you know, where I would be inspired by that person sometimes and by what they share with me, or I sometimes would find encouragement from the things I was pulling from my life, you know? And so this was a huge part of my, of why I continue somehow, you know, through this journey. And then eventually like, yeah, in the year 10, you know, finally, I finally made it, made it happen, you know, so yeah, now I was able to make this dream, you know, like a reality, you know, but, but he didn't come like, he was, it was not given to me like, you know, but I think it really helped me dip in my understanding of my practice, you know, really happy because I don't think if I had gone through that, if I had gotten really like quick, I probably would never really go through all this, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was like, I learned so much in this process, you know, yeah. Again, if I can follow on that, like, you know, I've been an artist, right, from 19 and a half years, and financially, I've struggled that whole time, you know, with very small points in between there. And something that, you know, I'll talk to different people and encourage different people who they're like, man, it still hasn't happened yet, yeah, still, I have this goal, still hasn't happened. I'm doing all the stuff, like, what's the deal, you know, yeah. And, you know, in each of the instances where I have chanted for something, and it has taken longer than I expected, right, or my limited mind is very attached to doing something, yeah, I think should happen. I have seen that my life needed to expand in order for that to happen. And that's what I have to, you know, remember each time, and when I look at how much growth I've had to do to get to this place, like, I left anything even close to the corporate world 20 years ago. Now, I'm talking with CEOs, like, every other week. And like, you know, the amount I've had to learn in the business realm, you know, it's like, it's so much, but it's so awesome, right? I'm like, oh, this is fun. Like, now it's fun, because I'm like, the CEO of my own company, but we do art. And it's awesome. Like, I love learning and talking about it and learning about how to grow and all the things that are my weak points, you know. And so I try and share that with folks, as there was a young man who was like, man, it's been like six months, it hasn't happened. I'm like, bro, it took me 19 years, 18 years, man. Like, like, yeah, pushing something coming for you. You know, something I'm thinking about and listening to you guys is it sounds like so much of, like, the ways that Buddhism informs your lives as artists is like, yeah, very much this internal, like, always tapping into the power of your life to really be able to write for what you want. And also, like, you know, in this expansion of your life, you also can like, you can see things really differently. You can understand like your process to get somewhere differently. And I'm wondering, like, you know, there's, yeah, this internal kind of aspect of like character, your, your own character development and building this strength in your internal life. And I'm wondering, and perhaps we're like a intellectual way if there are aspects of like Buddhist philosophy or like concepts that inform your art at all. One thing I feel it's like, it's so funny, right? Like, we call it like the one is of self and environment. And I think that concept is, for me, it's been something very helpful at this moment. And of course, right now, I'm directing this project. But of course, the problem, the challenge keeps coming, you know, that's the thing. You know, that you hit a point and it's over. No, you have to keep going. It's because it's what's the next one. You know, there's always, never going to stop. You know, so right now, I have even bigger challenge because it's like, there's a lot of, you know, different personalities. I have to work with. There's a lot of different opinions. And many times, I feel it's easy to separate yourself from others because you might not get along with someone and just say, "Oh, that person, I don't like that person." And you pull away from me. But really like, I think Buddhism helps me to understand that that person is in my life for a reason, you know. And I have to really learn from this situation, to learn whatever this person is trying to teach me here, you know. Instead of like seeing things from this small lens as right where you're saying like, "Oh, no, that person is annoying." Or that person is, "Man, that person's cut through all or whatever." And it's really trying to see it almost like through like appreciation, you know, like in a sense where, how can I create value out of this situation? Because in Buddhism, we say to that whatever that whatever life state you are in, right. If you, if I bring that to work, that's going to be the world they're going to bring at my work. So people's going to, they're going to reflect that, you know. They're going to reflect that kind of tendency that I'm showing. And I think that's helping me a lot. That's why I think it's a continuous practice because we have to really chant every day. We're able to really, to really force to go back to what really is important, you know. But I think for me it's that's the idea that like whatever is in your environment, you know, is there for a reason? And to be able to create, to bring the enlightened state over every situation, you know. So they're not dominated by that situation, not become right, but I think Buddhism has helped me to really not be swayed by it. And it all depends on my life's condition. And for me, in my field, it is always unstable, you know. You never know what really, because that, you know, a project can be canceled, you know, or whatever it is. If you think like that, you know, in your brain, it's like, man, it's so scary, you know. But I think through Buddhism, I really feel like I have this confidence, you know, that really all depends on me, you know, you know, you all starts for me like taking if, you know. And so I think it's been a great tool for me, you know, to not let this, the environment that can be very, you know, can oscillate a lot, you know, yeah. I'm kind of wondering what you think, Brian, but like this aspect of oneness and self and of self and environment, to me feels like applied to your work. I don't know if you feel that way, but just curious. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's, to me, there are like two things. And again, like as an artist, one of the things I've really realized more and more through the years, right? You know, art is the language of our subconscious. The things that I make, right? I'll just make them because I'm compelled to make them, right? And then afterwards I look and I go like, oh, wow, that actually like our subconscious mind is like smarter than our intellect, right? Like we would say our our Buddha nature, right? Like that Buddha wisdom, right? Which I don't know if they're the exact same thing, but they're related, right? And so I was compelled to work with found materials from the start because I'm just like, I love living on this planet. I'm so grateful to be alive. And I wanted to continue forever in the best possible way to get better for future generations. And I see all this stuff around us that is just like piling up higher and higher and higher. And nobody seems to be thinking about it or talking about it more so now. But in 2000, you know, it's just like we're just still in the party. You know, it's just like just buy it all and throw it away. And it's like, yeah. And it's like this isn't reality, you know what I mean? So absolutely like bringing and working with things that others have deemed trash, right? Like shows that there is still value, right? In these things that some you've been told, there's no value to that once it's done. Just put it over there. But there's so much more and the idea of like the respect, right? Of an interconnectedness of all of our actions, right? And the way that we respect the earth and the environment is the way we respect each other is the way we respect ourselves. And this practice is based upon the dignity and respect of, you know, we each have the most infinitely respect for the aspect within us. And the more we recognize that, the more we see that in others. So, you know, that I think is a big part, a much deeper part than I even understood 20 years ago, you know, or even 10 years ago. And then the other part is this business that I created, right? What we literally are doing, I was talking to these execs today about this because they're like, we talked to us about the stuff, you know, and I'm like, there's actually something called many embody one in mind, which is perfectly represented by this sculpture. And in fact, the CEO of the company, when he unfailed this sculpture, he was like, this piece shows like when we all put our minds together, like what we can achieve, right? And so, I mean, there were 50 different people from this company that each made a part of this thing. And so it, you know, after the fact, I was like, oh, man, that's, that is totally many embody one in mind. And that, right? Like when we're united, we can achieve anything, you know, which is like, that's what I want for our country as well, right? It's more unity. That's how we win, right? It's the respect of the unity. So it's like, it's so infused, like the philosophy, so infused in there, I'm like, I'm just so grateful for the, the, you know, the SUI Buddhist community and the study that we do, because it's like, these are these things that are really so important, you know? And so, yeah, absolutely. And I have one quick question for Leo. I mean, so you're a director, but like, what do you direct like short films, do you direct animated films, do you direct full feature length films? Like, yes, no, I started like, you know, I, I, I directed a short film, you know, like when it was a Disney, you know, like a while back and, um, and that's after, then I laughed and I thought, yeah, then, and then I went to, uh, that my goal was to direct a feature animated film. And so now I'm finally being able to know to direct a feature and made it film. And, uh, yeah, but, you know, but yeah, it's like, it's always, that's what I learned. It's always right. It's a constant, you know, it's a constant like advancement. We, it keeps coming, right? The, the challenge keeps coming. And so, you never know, right? What will come and go? It's more like your confidence, right? It's like, you, you can't let like, it's like the, we call it like the eight wins, right? It's like, but it's kind of like you, we always being centered, never being swayed by, you know, and I think that's what this practice, how, because it is a very difficult, unstable industry, the, the human industry, you know, I think then no matter what comes, it's thrown at you, you somehow are able to go with it, right? And, uh, and create value out of it, you know, so I think that's kind of what brings me peace in a sense, that that's what brings me some, some sense of stability, you know, that's why I think this practice is so incredible, because it, yeah, it's the only thing that can really give me that, that sense of like, okay, like tranquility, you know, yeah. Thank you, man, because I was just like, you know, we're also humble in everything, but I'm like, dude, you're like a director of feature length films, like this is like, making the impossible possible, dude, like, I'm just want to honor that. You know, I'm telling you, yeah, you're true, man, I'm not so inspired by everything that, I know you did, though, some incredible, like the Burning Man, yeah, he was just showing me, though, we were at, uh, another conference, you know, and then, uh, yeah, I was like, man, that's mind blowing, this stuff that Brian does, yeah, that's incredible, yeah. This is like, this is such a fun, like, conversation. I feel so alive, listening to you guys, because I think, like, hearing so much, um, just about, like, your personal lives and how bringing out your Buddhahood, how that, like, shines a light on really everything you do is so, um, just really, like, beautiful to hear, honestly, like, really encouraging, and I wanted to ask just one more question, answer it however you'd like, but I always end episodes asking for a piece of advice. So I'm wondering at what advice you guys would give to an artist that's listening to this, and they're curious about Buddhism, but they haven't dipped their toes in yet, and they're not totally sure where to start, and whether they should start. So one other thing that I have started doing is, is coaching, business coaching artists, and so even though they are not necessarily practicing this Buddhism, you know, it's very much one of those things where what I would, if, if I was someone who is an artist and has this tool of Nomeo Harding-A-Kill, and I don't know which way to go or what to do, I would really chant to uncover what your deep why is. Why are you an artist? Why are you choosing this path? When there are so many other paths out there that are, you know, maybe have a little clearer, like trajectory or whatever, you know, like why are you choosing this one? Because it's going to get really challenging, and you're going to ask yourself, why am I doing this? And is this worth doing? And at those times when you have your why, right, like for for myself, right, that's this connection to the environment, but it's also this, you know, us as what we call Bodhisattva's of the earth, right, like how can we bring the most value to the most number of people, right? But like, how do I make that concrete, you know, and get clearer on that? And when you have that, then when you hit those challenging times, you're like, this is why. And this is so much bigger than myself that, yeah, I might be going through some hard things, but it's, that's, that doesn't even matter. It's so important. I'm going to stick with this no matter what. Yes, amazing. Yes, yes. You know, if I was an artist right now, you know, I mean, I, I, I think, you know, like the reason why I started was because it was really like suffering myself, you know, and I really wanted to somehow see a change in my life. And, and I, I was literally against the wall, you know, so I had no choice. I was like, I said, look, if this Buddhism doesn't work for me, I'm, you know, I'm done, you know, and, but I, that was the greatest thing that happened to me, you know, because I really feel, I don't think I would, if I was going through that situation, I would give it a try to Buddhism, you know, because I think it was because of the how dire was my situation that I really embraced it. So, but I, all I can say is that man, this is practically changing my life. I've been practicing for like 16 years and, and yeah, I promise you I wouldn't be here, you know, giving the talking here with you guys or doing, you know, like, if it didn't really like affected my life and it really transformed my life. And I think like just what Brian was saying, it is like a really incredible cause that is not only for all lives, you know, it's for the sake of others, you know, so it's something really profound in a sense where you, you're not just, it's for like a greater, greater good, you know, it's for a bigger, cause, and we're trying to really change like the karma of, of, of the destiny of humankind, you know, to transform. And so I think it's really profound what we do, it's not, it goes beyond just self, you know, anyway, I would, the advice I would give is that really just, you know, we can tell as much as we want here, we can tell how amazing this practice, but I think you have to try yourself, you know, and really see how you feel. And it's like, I keep telling you like all this, you know, this killing pie is so good, you know, but you've got to try it, try it yourself and see how it tastes, you know, and then I think everyone's experienced that differently, you know, but everyone is able to tap in something incredible, you know, but I would say give it a serious try, you know, a serious try, you know, really like, I promise there's something that will, something will happen, some kind of shift, something that that's absolutely not. Leo and Brian are so humble and sincere and it was so much fun talking to them. Although their success took time, the process helped them become the kind of people who create meaningful work and to do it with appreciation and joy. Hearing their stories helped me really think about my own life in this long-term vision, realizing that not everything happens overnight. But the key really was to not give up. I want to end with a brief poem that I love by Daisakli Keita. Art is a song of the joy of living. Art is a force for bringing people together. Art is a dance of life's victory, crossing stormy seas to reach the shores of peace. I hope that after today's episode you feel refreshed and re-determined to go after your dreams, whatever they are, and create art with some aspect of your life. To get connected with your local bootability community, reach out to us at [email protected]. Until next time, thanks for listening. [BLANK_AUDIO]