From Solo Engineer to 26 Guides: The Unorthodox Growth Strategies behind Rainbow Tours

more bookings does not mean necessarily more profit. More bookings means more headache. Revenue is not only a number. Is the effort that we need to put in order to get that revenue. Now, maybe our business is a bit smaller, but you have a really good revenue because the effort that you put in it, but maybe you're put in a lot of effort for the same revenue, then it's not as profitable. And we must remember that we still have to enjoy the business and we have to enjoy life. And it's it's not about scaling and becoming huge. What's the point in doing all of that if you're not enjoying it? Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the TourPRinner podcast. We are live in Berlin, Germany. We are at the Get Your Guide Unlocked Summit and our goal at this summit is to meet interesting tour operators who have grown to do something interesting with their companies. So they can share their advice with you, our tour planner audience. And we thought we would start with somebody who came up to us and said, we recognize you and we actually listened to your podcast. And we said, well, do you want to listen to yourself on the podcast. And now here we are with our tour. Could you begin by introducing yourself and the company you are with? Yes, hello everyone. It's my honor to be here. So my name is Arturam from Madrid. And I was originally I studied chemical engineering. But then I realized that in the lab, it was a little bit boring. There was not so much emotion. And I thought that I needed a little bit more social energy. Now I've always liked history. And when I travel, I do love going on tours. And we can all agree that when you have a really good guide, that can make the difference of all of our holidays. Now I realized that in my own city, where where I was living there in Stockholm, there were not so many options of really good tours. There was some of them that were all right, but not to what I thought that was needed. Then I started my own company back in 2019. And I was just myself alone. Then he was growing, growing, growing. And now I have 26 guides with me. It's working amazingly. As I said, like I was just an engineer. I have no idea of how to do tourism. So I had no idea how to train a team. I was just doing it by horse. I was just going out there and I see I do a tour and I see I get so, so reviews saying you should do it a bit more fun. Then the next tour, I do it a bit more fun. And then I was just learning on the go. But when I have new employees and I need to tell them how to do it, like how to give them the recipe, I found it so hard to then think about my 100 tours. I'm trying to get the most important key factors. And he was some time ago that Anna Kashman, she recommended me, oh, you have to look for a bit of a tour. And I was like, I'm going to go on it. And then things to tour. The new advices I was able to give my team even clearer instructions and most important instructions that were not coming from me. Because well, I had no authority over them, right? I was just a chemist, but coming from such a great community and a lot more experienced than my own. I also felt that it was heavier as a as an advice to my team. You know, I often think of the boss and team relationship as kind of parent and children. You're kind of daddy that gives them their money and everything, which means when you try to tell them to do something, there's a little bit of a natural, you're not my dad or you're not my boss or okay, the boss is getting mad. It's nice to have another voice. I sometimes think of like what we do is like, we're the uncle. We're kind of fun. And they like listen. They listen to the fun uncle in a different way than they listen to the parents sometimes. And that's that's something I learned as a as a manager in general that you can say things a thousand times, but they'll listen to somebody else position in a different way. It always happened like that. I don't know why, but the psychology works that way when it's your parent or your boss or your manager telling you something. Of course, we're always going to listen, but actually taking the right action. I don't know, maybe it's better when it comes from the fun uncle. So thanks to the fun uncles, then I have a better team. Fun uncles. That's not a bad friend. I'm not an uncle. I'm a grandpa. So everybody here today is reasonably large operators. And you just mentioned you're running a team of 26 guys in you only started in 2019. So that's six years ago. You're already up to 26 guides scaling quickly. So the theme today we're interested in is growth. And how we can help our smaller, smaller operators in the community do what you've done. Like they want to grow as well. So can you talk about how you manage that growth from an operational perspective? How did you get through the pain points of having more guides? How to get them scheduled the technology needed to use all that pain? Can you just talk about that? Please. It is painful. That's what I can say to be honest. And also considering that half of it has been COVID. So it's also a very unique scenario, right? And we were just down there and we were talking with someone who just said, I was on the first year of Get Your Guide Giovanni like amazing like 30 years into this business. And in 2010 he joined Get Your Guide. His supply number is like 300. He said something that I got back in my head. He said, I'm really grateful for Get Your Guide. They do not let more companies joining the platform so that there's not an overflow of companies. But then he also started another thought, how can we, the young ones, bring something new? How do we even have the chance to bring in something different? And it really is painful like when we have to get our new businesses, new ideas in the market that is already so secure and so robust. And there's thousands of people that are already booking activities that have been there for so many years. How can anyone book a new activity? We have to come up with new ideas. We have to come up with new things and new activities. So you've got a background as an engineer and engineers tend to be very practical step by step project leds. Did you use that skill set to actually work out the operations and your business to allow it to scale to the size it's got to? Absolutely. And I love numbers. So honestly every every year to my team, I love preparing all the graphs and all the numbers and all the statistics and we even have like this smallest statistic which makes no point but I love them. So yes, I do use the mindset as an engineer to solve problems and how we are taught in the university how as a block like a diagram of blocks and solutions and just go straight to the point. But it also has sometimes it's negative points. For example, as engineers, we are trained to think practically. But maybe not to be a good HR. So that's when I need help for example or imagine to teach my guides things that they should do difference. Maybe I know how to do math. I know how to do some things. But maybe communicate into my own team on how do they have to do things. Maybe I find that a little bit harder. So take us back to those earliest days and now in retrospect with what you know now has been such a larger company. What were the most important good choices that you made or that you would have made in order to start growing the company well? Well, I think that is very important to say that growing it's only important when the growth is steady and growing too fast. It makes no good. It looks like it's amazing, but in the long run it's not going to be a good idea. And if I go back in time, I would say the most important thing has been having a good team, but also treating them the way they deserve. Having a really good set of guides that really makes a difference. Now having guides that have been with me since the beginning after five years doing tours, they are amazing guides. And they can only arrive to that point after so much experience. So I've seen other companies growing a lot in one year after COVID. They had a lot of guides, but they were not treating them well after six months a lot of those guides were living. So round yourself with a really good team, but treat them so nicely that they never want to leave you. With the growth in Rainbow Tour, you noticed some market changes happening with regards to clients. You started to identify a different type of client that you were getting opportunities with. And I believe you've turned that run with it and actually designed a second business. Yes, exactly. I realized that there were a lot of people going for the day to day activities, all the walking tours or museum visits. But then I saw that there was a gap in the market and nobody was doing high-end private tours. And a private tour, a lot of people might expect that it's just for a small group for, well, ten times the money. But it's more about catering to them. A private tour means that you can adapt to the necessity of the client. So I've realized that there's a lot more private tours and a lot of the clients, they're looking for more experiences that are a bit more unique. So they are putting more money into something that is better crafted. And they are all right with spending a little bit more as long as it's something unique. So it's something in between, right? As well. There's a little bit for everyone, I would say. Unique has been the word that I've been hearing all day long from fellow operators, very large operators. They're all leaning into that. I've also heard some operators say that some of their tours are the most generic tours that are selling the best compared to the unique ones. What does this word unique mean to you in the Stockholm market right now? A from the review, someone writes, "You were the highlight of my trip?" Your activity was unique. That's that's what I feel maybe the activity when you read it Maybe you don't consider that it's unique but the way that is done or the person that you have in front of you makes it unique Yeah, so here's the million other question for me How do you as a company that is looking to standardize your product and make sure you're delivering a Consistent result to your customers match that need for consistency with allowing the guide to be unique An individual and personable I'm on the tour. I would say two things first of all I have different products So let's say one of the activities is the overall product in which the client is going to adapt to what I offer And then my other product is the one in which I adapt the guide to the customer Now doing this differentiation it makes us a little bit easier But still there is a challenge and I would say Any guide can know history or well I'm talking history because I do historical tours if you do a foot tour or if you do a kayak then it's something different But I would say the social the social energy Not everyone is able to do a good job as a guide being able to be in front of someone reading the person reading the body language and Understanding what they need That is a skill that not a lot of people have and it's extremely difficult to build you either have it or You don't have it all the other history or all the other content you can you can work on it You can learn all the kings you can learn all the facts you can learn all the statistics But if you don't have that social energy that you can match your customer That would say it's very difficult to become it really really good guide you can be an average one Just one quick question to follow up on that how are you Hiring your guides to make sure that you're hiring for the ones that have that social energy. It's extremely difficult to find this now In my experience the way that I do it is if you are working with me and you recommend the friend I'm going to trust you because I already know how you work and I know that you know what my business needs now When there's someone that I have no idea who the person is and nobody in my team knows this candidate and they apply I'm still going to give them a chance. So I do not say let's go for an interview You know in a in a not fit room and just like reading a piece of paper What I would say is what do you like to do do you have any kind of hobby and they will say I like cycling Let's go cycling together or for example No, I really like going out and listening to some music. Would you like some jazz? No, I'll eat a bit more rockability Let's go to listen some rockability. So I want to meet the person But I want to meet the person when they are comfortable to really see how they are right And then I will tell them you have to join my tours not with me but with my guides And do not say that you are an applicant Just join the activity and later They will tell me how they felt and also my guide will say you know what I had someone to then my tour This person was so interesting or the other way around. Oh, God. I had one. It was so annoying I think it's worth exploring for listeners this we hear this what though was time personalization But you're adapting you mentioned earlier you're adapting to the customer on your your private tours That is without doubt now we have enough data enough evidence customers are becoming I don't really want to use the word demanding but they want more they want something different And if you think about it if they're going for a tour or three or two of them actually design the rest of the day themselves anyway So it's a very unique day to that family or that individual or that couple anyway And they are increasingly just wanting the tour to be an extension of their personalized experience That they're having in a destination as it as it is So for all the smaller companies listening here That can be really scary because personalizing to individuals versus having a structured tour With the guides learned the structure you get the group goes on it which is great with group tours are not going anywhere fast We're still going to have group tours but increasingly this personalization is getting bigger and bigger and bigger And then we bring in all the technology and the AI and people are getting used to getting things personalized just to them What advice would you give small operators who are listening to this? We would like to go from just doing group tours into personalized tours If you're enjoying your tour personalizing it to a client it might be a little bit easier But you also have to be really knowledgeable of what you're doing You cannot just I cannot go for example now to Berlin learn the history in a couple months and then say I'm a guide If I have been able to do this in Stockholm it's because I study the place but I go to the cafes I go to the restaurants I learn the place I go to the museum exhibitions I go everywhere So personalizing it is a lot easier when I do the personalized experience I will tell the client I want to give you the history from the Vikings medieval times and more or less until the 1600s But then that person says I'm really interested in economics. Sure. It's amazing. Let's go into economics Let's go what happened in the 20th century and then in all the countries and the Second World War It's really really interesting but you must be able to have all of that knowledge behind To be able to to move the activity and something that I'm doing in the private tours is that I do it some sort of a As a taxi tariff I will say My fee is this much per hour the standard tour it would be around two hours and a half So the price would be this however Maybe the day that you're traveling you're feeling the connection and you feel like you want to keep going or maybe it's raining and the it's a How do you want to stop it or maybe you're traveling with grandpa and maybe grandpa says oh I want to stop a little bit because I want to go slower I want to take it a bit more chill So I let them book a tour that is you will pay afterwards depending on how long we do it So when you let them do this they also feel That you trust your job you let them feel Okay, this person knows what they're doing and then when I'm on the tour and we are three hours down I will tell them well now it's been three hours you want to keep going and they always say Let's keep going I'm loving it. Let's keep going and sometimes I've even like like keep going until eight hours And they never stop they take you for lunch and then the next day they say please come come with us and have dinner so Try to get A little bit more free in that sense Right so that that's an advice that I have not been seen so many other companies doing like some sort of taxi I say taxi right that's an example. Yeah, yeah And I just call that creativity which should be part of the journey of being a business owner Experimenting with everything. I think sometimes we box ourselves in in this industry too I do walk into her's their historical people want history. They are two to three hours long That is what you do that is what our job is I see a rigidity Uh in a lot of operators and then I see people like you saying oh, you know what let's try this yeah, and it works Yeah, but you have to kind of Remove some of those blocks that you might have in terms of thinking about what our job is and it helps when you come to it From another job like an engineer you think about it from an engineer because I'm doing this for for the passion of it for enjoying with the people Right, I've been I was I was I was traveling in Amsterdam and and the guide was doing a good job But to be honest, I really feel like the guide was going on this script Yeah, because maybe that person just need to pay their you know their their their expenses their rent and that's it so for them It's just another job. Yeah, but if you have someone that is really passionate about what they're doing I'm sure that my employees they they don't even have a doubt when the client says I'm loving this let's keep going my guide will say I'm loving the tool. Let's keep going So if you have Guides that are really really passionate then the business is gonna keep going Talk to me about the early days and what I think permitted your growth was it OTA relationships was it book in software was that Creative marketing what were some of the ingredients early on that allowed you to keep growing in a way it was OTA's um and And again, it comes from the point of view of having no idea of tourism business management, right? So it just came from OTA's But then covid came And covid was very hard for everyone in in all the sectors and especially tourism But in Sweden there was no restriction there were no lockdown Um nothing was happening so you could actually go outside to the street and just walk around and I was really really lucky Because Spain had some special deals and they gave thousands of people that were working in hospitals like doctors nurses and administrative personnel They gave them free flights the only place they could fly to Well, it was Sweden and you know you're gonna go to Stockholm So I actually had Slowly and and steady to this very small groups, but I was only doing it for the fun I was doing my masters in the lab and I was just doing this as a side thing so I would say It was a little bit of luck a little bit of OTA's so we should not depend on one oid OTA just like All of our right all of our eggs in that basket. We should so What's that not all eggs in one basket? How many how many distribution partners have you go? I have like ten Yeah, yeah, and then and then each of them you really see how they approach different strategies And for example, there's a Spanish OTA that I we have a really good connection with and they send us a lot of travel agencies from Argentina Mexico and Colombia But then for example, we have get your guide and I really see that get your guide brings in people from center europe So either Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands or Belgium or the UK But for example, Viator actually brings in a lot of people from the US and Australia right? So we really see that each ALTI brings people in different times from different parts of the world. So over the last six, eight months, we've in person spoke to probably nearly a thousand operators now. We've always asked the same question, how many partners you've got for a listener, over 95% of the answers have been five or less partners. Now, the funny thing is the small amount of answers who had five or more, ten or more, they were all without exception, larger businesses. So you don't need to be Einstein to put the two connections together. The more partners you have, the better chance you have of building a scale of scale to business. But at the same time, it's a very risky move because if you have too many ALTI, there's too many partners and then whenever you have to close the tool, you have to go on 20 websites. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's a headache. So there has to be a really good balance there. So that's the technology you're on the engineer. We can solve that with technology. Come on. The days of going on all the websites to close it down of God, I've gone surely. It's not just partners, we ALTI, so it's like we go on about this until the end of all the time. There's many, many different partners. You mentioned some of the ALTIs are really good in central Europe, some in good in Spain. You get local partners are really good at driving. You're heading one of your new businesses is high-end clients. Straight away, I know the high-end hotel. The high-end hotels can be fantastic. Partners high-end travel agencies. So the partner range is sort of infinite. It's really, really large. And a lot of operators freak out when I start talking about 30 partners, 50 partners, 70 partners. But it is perfectly feasible to have that amount of partners. Wow. Let's talk about what has been working for your marketing efforts as direct channels. Facebook ads, Google ads, what are you doing to get the word out? So right now for the younger generations, TikTok and Instagram, it's amazing. It really is a booming. So for example, for North and Norway, for the Northern Lights, just a couple months ago, I was just doing a set of videos to put on on TikTok and Instagram about the Northern Lights and just like some recommendations on how to book the activities and what to expect and so on. And some of them went a little bit like a couple of thousands and a hundred thousands views. And because of just going vital on one, boom, then you get 50 dieted bookings. So sometimes you don't know what's what's, I mean, nobody knows with TikTok algorithm. It's really, really hard to read it out and to predict it. But if you can land one vital one, then, bam, then you're there. So it really is amazing for the dieted bookings. So for the TikTok and Instagram, I see that the people that are coming in through this business, it's all marketing strategy is the younger generations. Now 40 plus, it goes a lot from world of mouth. I would say Facebook, it's at least for me, it's not driven so much or at least as good results. A lot of the older generations, it's of course personal recommendation. So I've had a lot of people calling me directly saying someone else was with you last year and they recommended me to call you personally. So doing a good business, it will, it will pay off. It will really pay off. But I see a difference in the age gap. Are you doing anything to encourage word of mouth? Are you giving out cards? No, absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. Everybody gets so many emails like, oh, if I review, if I review, if I review, when someone has done a good job, people will leave a review. So I want those genuine ones that are really speaking like a really good paragraph explaining the activity. I felt that when I was pushing for reviews, then the review that I got was, everything was good. But it was not maybe a beautiful one. Yeah. As funny, I mean, I was at a restaurant that recently opened in my neighborhood last week and the sommelier came over and we had been talking wine with him a little bit and behind the bar, they had like a third of a bottle left and he just came over and he just placed it on our table and he said, it's our gift. We know your locals and we're happy, we're happy to be in your neighborhood and he gave us just, I mean, a third of a bottle, it was like a little dribble for each, but that gesture was so touching. I mean, it's simple and it's stupid, but it's also psychologically very efficient. A gesture of a gift makes you want to reciprocate. And I went home, I said, what is your name? And I went home and he wrote the most glowing review that named him. And then I went back the next couple of days later for a drink and he was there and he said, my manager read that review. I was the first person to be named in the review. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's just, that's a generosity economy. And that stuff works so much more magically than some sort of special wording or technique to get people to review. That's the level on which you're thinking about review generation. Then you're not thinking profoundly enough about what you're doing to connect with your people. Absolutely. The reviews, they have to be genuine. When we push for them and when we look for them, then that's not the way to go. It's one of them. It might not be the best one. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me, Ed's you've been growing your business. Some of the financial changes you've had to think about going from being a solo operator where you're just a guide to scaling because it more bookings doesn't necessarily mean more money at the end of the year. Yeah, there would also be a lot more expenses when I was just myself as a sole trader. It's a little bit more simple. But then when it was becoming a little bit more difficult to keep up with all of the invoices and all of the taxes and all of the declarations, then I went with an accountant. Thank God I just went for a nice account and we sent memes to each other and it's super fun to actually have a fun accountant. It's amazing. It's really good accountants, someone that when you have a problem in five minutes, they answer. That's the best thing. So it really is true that more bookings does not mean necessarily more profit. Now something really important is that the revenue is not only a number, is the effort that we need to put in order to get that revenue. Now, maybe our business is a bit smaller, but you have a really good revenue because the effort that you put in it, but maybe you're put in a lot of effort for the same revenue, then it's not as profitable, right? And we must remember that we still have to enjoy the business and we have to enjoy life and it's not about scaling and becoming huge. So that goes to the core meaning of why two per hour exists to make two operators more profitable and you've said it better than we can. Your growth doesn't always mean more profit. That has to be managed growth and structured correctly. Got your costs in line. Got your pricing correct. We were sitting with an operator yesterday discussing pricing and detail. I was expecting an answer that they did not get. I got a different answer. It was a great answer. It was a fantastic answer. He said, we just keep putting the prices up all the time until we find where they can't go any further, which is a great thing. And that's why you have two businesses. I have two companies that customers don't know that it's, you know, both of them are mine. So they don't know them, right? So I can put some prices and the other I put others and I see the bookings moving. So to finish this off then, let's talk about the future. What you've been growing. You've only been around five, six years. You've grown. You've launched two businesses now. One at the high end, one at the group tours. What's the future for you? What's the next couple of years for you? What you try to do? Well, as of right now with Northern Lights expansion, it's going well, but again, we have to do it steady and slowly so that so that the growth is meaningful. I would say if I can look a little bit ahead into two, three or four years, the idea would be to then expand to another of the Nordic cities, either Bergen, Oslo or Copenhagen, because ultimately what we also studied in university was Nordic history. And it was not only meant for, well, Sweden. It was actually meant for the whole Nordics. And after so many years and partners and meeting a lot of travel agents, I still have a lot of, well, quotations or they want me to go with someone on the tour for Stockholm, Copenhagen and Oslo. And I will tell them not right now, I only do Stockholm. So that got me thinking like maybe in the future, what I want to do, it's to expand to the other Nordic capitals. And that way I can then give the service that I am already asked for. Do you have systems to make sure you're listening to your customers needs, looking at reviews, asking people to see where, what they want and what the demand is that you haven't yet met? When I have a new candidate, I will ask that candidate to go to all of my tours to somehow infiltrate with an analysis that I have prepared so that they analyze the guides. Now when I go and I go to my guide, because I'm there, the guide is going to act a little different because I'm looking at them and it's fine, right? This is fine. But when there's, you know, just the client and they do not know that that client has been, well, it's a candidate and I've sent them. So I have these little ideas to also analyze the internal team. And in the same way, when this candidate is on the tour, they would also ask the customers like how did you book, how are you finding it, right? So they somehow infiltrate and ask bunch of questions of how it's going and how they like making it. But at the same time, having different ones with different markets, right? The normal walking tours, a little bit more prepaid, like walking tours that are a bit better, let's say museum visits or foot tours and then the high end. I think that I get a good overview of, of, of, what most of the clients want, at least in Stockholm. So as well as running two businesses, you're running a spy ring as well. Yes. (laughing) Are you as an engineer with a good accountant when you're not sending memes to him or her? Are you looking at certain metrics, certain KPIs, certain numbers in your business to judge the health of your business? Sometimes it's not about the numbers, sometimes it's about the feeling. For example, we can all have a really good customer that pays this amount of money. And then you have a bunch of Erasmus students that pay the same amount of money, but the worth of that is extremely different. So I would say I do not follow so much the money in order to see if the season has been going well or better or worse, nor for example the number of people. Now the number of customers, it's not the same having a tour with 20 people because this last August, I had a tour with 200 divided between eight guides. Now if I see how many people we had, oh it was only 20 people per guide, but overall it was a lot larger, the customers that we're having. So for me the best way to measure it is the satisfaction of my guides. For example, if I tell them, next week do you wanna take another shift? If they say, yeah sure, I have energy. Everything's going good. Now if they say, no I need to rest. That's dangerous moments. When even your own employee say, no, please don't give me more shifts. I need to rest. Then I realize, okay, we are not enough guides or I'm pushing them too much. So I would say I measured it with the internal feeling of the team rather than the external numbers. I would say. - I did not expect an engineer and this podcast we're saying I just follow the feeling. - Yeah, I know, because I realized that that's what I had to do. Because an engineer would follow the numbers. But I'm not treating with numbers. I treat with numbers in the lab. I treat with chemical reactions in the lab. I'm treating with people. Therefore, as I cannot measure how they are, I have to go with the feeling. That's what I realized. - Okay, good. We can end. We got our sound by it. That was perfect. We're here at the Get Your Guide experience and what this morning struck you about their announcements. They were mentioning a whole bunch of stuff. What caught your ear from the sessions? - What struck me? Everybody's using AI and to be honest, I'm not using AI at all. And everybody's saying that AI is going to, is it is already the next thing on the next generation thing? And if I can be honest, I'm feeling a bit. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. - I need a microphone, Pete. (laughing) We'll qualify that. Everybody isn't using AI. Everybody's saying they're using AI. So they have tested at once, or have used at once. The question you ask is, are you using AI every day in your business? And then the answer you'll get from most people, nine out of 10, or higher, will be no. So there's a more hype and more talk, but less doing. So don't feel worried that you're not using it because you're in the vast majority at the moment. Having said that, we all know where the future's going. Any two-roperator, listen to this, really does need to understand how to use AI in the business. And the only one way to do it is by using it on a daily basis and learning about it. You heard it from Peter, AI is just a bunch of hype. And from Arturo, follow the feeling. Treat your guides well. Be aware of them as humans. Be aware of your guest as humans and somehow everything kind of falls into place. Arturo, thank you so much for this fantastic conversation. - Thank you, guys. - We appreciate it. (upbeat music)