From Receipts to Results: Advocating for Your Child’s Education

[Music] Hello, hello, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Safe Space the ABA podcast. My name is Michelle Zeman. Please be sure to listen throughout the podcast so that way you get your two free CEUs. I'm super excited about today's guests. We're actually going to be going into all things related to individualized education plans, otherwise known as IEPs. I'm super excited to introduce my next guest and her name is Alicia Renee of the IEP files. Hi, Alicia, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Michelle. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I am so excited too. And you know, this is an episode that has definitely been a long time coming. I know that, you know, we've talked about things within schools, but I don't think we've ever had an episode that actually goes into what we're about to discuss today. So I'm super, super excited for you to be on today's episode. Awesome. I'm so excited. Again, I can't get the excitement out because it's just I get so passionate about sharing this information with others that I've like tried to calm down Alicia like you're good at. It's not a happen. It's fine, you know? I love that. I love that. Well, let's dive right into it. So what first pulled you into the world of special education advocacy and how did that grow into the IEP files? Yes. And so I will just do another just a quick intro about myself. So I am Alicia Renee. I am the founder of the IEP files and also known as the IP queen. I've named myself that. So I don't think it's taken. I am a copa trained advocate of program manager by trade, do some system implementations, etc. So I spend my professional career working in quality and patient safety really being an advocate for patients at that level. And I also know my mom of two neurodivergent children. My work is about making sure no parents ever has to walk into an IEP meeting alone or unprepared. I blame my professional training with lived experience to quit families with receipt strategy and strength at the IEP table. And when pulled me into this work was again my children. I realized very quickly the school system wasn't built for families like mine, especially as a black mother raising neurodivergent kids. I had to become an expert in the room. Whether I wanted to or not. I was started as survival for my own family became the IEP files, a movement in community where parents get the tools, the receipts and the confidence to show up differently. And it's very important to me because what I learned in my journey, because I've been advocating for my sons since he was two years old right before we got the diagnosis of autism my youngest son. And so as I throughout that time through elementary school and to middle school and where we currently are in middle school, once he transitioned into middle school, I realized, oh, this is a new game here. This is a new game here. Everything about it. The school model right has changed and so that really is what got me into this work. And I'm sure we'll get into more detail as we go along. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you mentioned you know being Copa trained. So just out of curiosity, for those of you who do not know what does Copa stand for and what does that training really like do for you as an advocate. Oh my gosh. I highly. First of all, I love that you asked me that question because that is one of the first things I do when I meet parents even on the street. I'm like, are you a Copa member? The Copa stands for the Council of Parents and Attorneys and Advocates. And the this organization has been around for years and they are the national organization that fights for children across the United States, right. They have found just a litigation against the Trump administration for trying to roll back to the Department of Education. So I want to share that as an example to show on the forefront like the type of work that they do. They also have annual conferences that they have and the biggest caveat or not caveat the biggest takeaway. I'm sorry that I want parents to know about Copa in my opinion from my experience as an as a parent and I'll go into the benefits of the as an advocate. As a parent is that as a parent member, you have access to a community where you can ask any question that you have pertained to your child's IP in the Copa community and all of the advocates that are members attorneys that are members can answer your questions right. So you have access to that membership fee gives you access to advocates and attorneys in real time and you can also, you know, review a previous parent questions and what the responses were. So that's a added bit of it, I think for parents to join as well as they have free trainings, they have monthly parent training groups and membership groups where you can join and really get your questions answered. So I think that's a high value for parents. The second thing about the Copa training as an advocate is it's a 10 is they have two programs is the seat 1.0 and then see 2.0. See 1.0 is a 10 week program and that allows you week by week to really the diving into the understanding of the background of special education, understanding the laws that have been passed. Talking about private notices, talking about the teacher models, talking about understanding assessment data and how to interpret the IP goals. So that training the C 1.0 is great for parents and it's great for advocates interested or have been in the field and just need more to understand. You know the I the special education language or special education laws because that's advocates. Our role really is to show up and protect the rights of parents right and ensure that the IP teams are. Meeting and ensuring that the IP is being implemented with fidelity right and so as advocate we're listening for procedural violations and showing that. Parents are and the children are receiving their rights to a free and appropriate public education. That's really that's really so awesome and I'm so glad that you know you get you get to do this within the Copa training you know and I feel like that's just that's so crucial. You know for families to be able to to access you know and to be able to see hey this is what this training is. This is what this training can do for you and you know I've looked into the Copa training myself and it is so interesting. I wish I had the financial support it but that means that that means that it just it looks so great. It really does look so great. That's another thing too that I wanted to touch on the training day give me a stronger backbone if you will the statuses or the statues actually the statues of the code of federal regulations which is under IDEA and then understanding my state law as I live in the state of Maryland so comar. And so understanding that IDA is the federal law and then understanding your state law right in that the state law typically back typically backs up the not typically backs up the federal law right and so I say that the Copa training helped me understand statues, timelines, caseloads and again. Case laws something that schools don't expect parents to know so I'm just knowing your state case laws right and what has been proven already one in your state is very vital and very powerful as a parent to go into the IP meeting knowing that you have this case law that supports your stance on why you're. Whatever the service is that your child needs, clover sharp in my skills, but I lean almost of what I lean on most is knowing how to merge our technical with the human experience right I can pull up the citations I can also coach a mom through what to say in a meeting. And they're able to understand right in a way that to the good and we're not trained lawyers right so and we're like what do you mean code of federal regulations right so in the coper training they break that down they break them with the CF Army sees the code of federal our regulations right but those are things that as a parent and not a trained lawyer that you may not come across or know to do so. I think that was one of like the powerful tools that I walked away with from the training that's really really awesome and you know again I cannot explain or I cannot say enough you know how great it is to be able to see what that looks like and also the knowledge that you're getting from this training just really sounds just so so invaluable. And one thing that I know that that you mentioned is you know a lot of parents come to you and they'll say like I'm so overwhelmed I don't even know where to start so tell us what the first thing you do say to them is. You see me rubbing my hands because oh my gosh this is my I get these questions a lot and what I do do because I can I'm a parent I'm living this right now I'm experiencing this I do we do a be a therapy we do speech language therapy we do OT right and we've been doing it since. because he was two years old. So I get the out of a pocket expense for culpés, the need to, oh my gosh, I need to pay for it, advocate out of pocket. Do I need an attorney? How do I pay for that? So when parents call me, with saying they're overwhelmed, my first thing is receipts. That is, this, one of my, my slogan is that I'm the receipt queen. Where are the receipts? And so I always tell parents to start with the documentation. Do not rely on your memory. I want you to get a binder. If you don't have a binder, use your Google Drive, use index cards. You can use something that, speaking of it, et cetera, right? I want you to get into habit of documentation. So get your binder, whatever you decide to use, start a timeline. I want you to write down everything. Meetings, dates, emails, missed services. The paper trail is your receipts and receipts when cases. Once parents take the first step, the overwhelming starts to shift into empowerment. And I've seen this with a lot of my parents. I had just last week, I had a parent file her first state complaint. And my question back to her, I was encouraging her, right? And very proud of her for taking that step because it does take so much courage to say, I'm going to hold the district accountable for the wrongdoing that I believe has taken place. And parents often, when they come to me, and that's how they ask them, have they ever filed a state complaint, their response to me is no. And I don't, I don't, I don't want to, I feel like I'm telling on them in this way. No, telling is different, right? You're asking for accountability. You're asking for services that you're entitled to under federal and state law, right? And if they deny what you're requesting such as a speech language services or OT services, they have to legally justify that and your prior written notice. They have to document what data they relied on to deny you that. Parents don't know that. And when you have that type of denial that can be for the allegation of a procedural violation, right? That you may denial without properly following the procedures that you're required to do. And so that's a complaint that goes to the state. The state does their investigation and they tell you whether or not your allegation is valid or not, right? And so my advice to parents is to file a state complaint because the state or SEA is the person that, or the organization that's responsible for ensuring compliance under IDA and state law. So it's not telling and I really believe it is an empowering piece, especially if you believe that your rights are being violated, your child's rights are being violated and they're not following your child's IEP. Absolutely, absolutely. And it's really important to that, if you see something and you notice something to say something, you mentioned you're the receipt queen. And I think that we really need to make sure that every single thing is there. We in behavior analysis say permanent product. It can be something as simple as emails, messages, all of the documentation that you can have. That way you have, if you need to make a complaint, you can back it up with all of the things. Yeah, it's so important. It's so important to have another client right where the school only communicates with her via phone. Like that's a big risk. It's a huge risk. It needs to be in document. It needs to be, especially if you're calling about services or a goal or something that's related to the IEP or you're talking about placement change. Why are we talking about it on the phone and not in an IEP meeting? Why aren't you documenting it? And so those are the type of conversations that I have with parents. And once I start to tell them about the value of documenting and what this really means and how this means for you moving forward and how this can impact your kid, I think it begins to shift their thinking about I was trusting these people. And I'm not telling people to not trust the district. I'm saying that you have to trust your gut in yourself first, you have to trust what your gut is telling you about what's happening in the situation. And when parents are calling me, they already have trusted their gut to say something isn't right. And so it's me, Needle in the thread and saying, this is what we do next. And this is how this is going to look. - Absolutely. And I've noticed that two words. Like, oh, let's take it to a phone call. Phone calls aren't, no. They're not the permanent product that you need to have. And I'm really glad that you mention that because I think, you know, I think sometimes, you know, some people might think, oh, like yeah, a phone call might be okay. You know, the fact that they're willing to talk to me on the phone is great. But really, at the end of the day, like, when there's documentation, when there is a way to be able to back up what exactly you're saying, whether that be through a meeting and email, you know, that's really that's really that much more important to be able to have that documentation. - Yeah. And what I also am learning or have learned and continue to learn as I do this and meet with parents and different leaders is that there is a disconnect between understanding the importance of an IEP, right? That an IEP is a legal document. It is a contract between you and the district. It is the district saying that these are the things that they are going to follow. If it's not written in the IEP, it does not exist. And it's nothing that can be implemented or followed. So if the school says, oh yeah, we're going to give your son or daughter counseling service two times a week. But if it's not documented in the IEP, they are not obligated to do that. It's just a verbal promise. And so if that's something that you aspire to have your child to continue to receive, right? The services you should request that it be documented in the IEP as a service, right? And documents have the frequency, the duration, et cetera, right? And so those are the key things that are really important for families to understand. It's not only families, but for teachers, additional advocates, and everyone that plays into the role of supporting the child is that the IEP is a legal document. And it should be upheld and implemented with full fidelity. And now the fact that it is a legal document should really speak as an entirety. If you are not following the child's IEP, you are breaking the law. And that should be the first thing on your head is I need to follow the law, you know? Yes, yes, yes. It's very interesting to me how it can go, right? There at work with districts where they are very-- very centered focus on the child. And then I have other teams where it is more important to prove that I was right than to continue to advocate for what the child needs in the meeting, right? They tend to make it about the parent or about the personality instead of what the focus should be, which is the child, and how you're going to implement and collect this data to ensure that my child is actually making progress. And that's a whole nother topic. But I would love to chime in about the IEP data and how to manage that. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And kind of on the note of IEP data, and really just like questions in general. So if you had to hand parents a short list of must-ass questions to schools or for schools, what would you say is on that list? Mm. On that list, oh my gosh, I have a checklist. That I give my parents, I have a pre-doring impulse of meeting checklist for my parents. That I give. So to give you, I mean to give you four. The first one I would say is parents definitely ask this question, right? How are you measuring my child's progress? That's a good one. Right? And I'm saying this as a full disclaimer, I am not an attorney. I want everyone to know this list. I've got not an attorney, I have a non-aturnee, special education advocate. Nothing is legal advice, but I will, I know, but period. And so what I'm saying about this is that that first question, you want to be mindful of how the energy in the room may shift when you ask that question. So be prepared for that, right? Because some people may interpret that as you challenging them or they're going to get defensive. And I say every school district will, but just as a parent that has never asked that question before, be prepared for the dynamics to potentially shift, right? That's my disclaimer in my FYI for parents. My second question that I would say is a must ask is what data supports this decision? Say you're in an IP meeting and they say no to a recommendation that I don't know, a psychologist gave, a counselor gave, a teacher gave, and they say no, we're not going to do that. We don't think that that's something that is needed or something that the school can't support. That's a red flag as well, right? They say the school can't support it, right? So you just want to say, well, what data supports this decision? Again, the dynamics of the meeting may change, but be prepared for that. And the third question I would recommend for families is what options were considered but rejected. And I think this one is a really good one. And this was something. that I use for my own son's IEP. I have requested IEAs for several areas. I disagreed with the school district's evaluations. And so that is something that parents are entitled to. You're able to ask for an independent education evaluation at the district's expense. You just have to put it in writing and basically say you disagreed with the evaluation. There's more to this. So again, this is a podcast. I'm not a lawyer. But I am telling you the information. So definitely do the research to look it up or contact me and I can give you a more in depth of this. But options were considered and rejected, as I was saying. And then my son had his IE. But in the prior written notice, during the meeting, I have requested, well, what are you accepting from these evaluators? And can you put it in the prior written notice? I received the prior written notice. I was unable to distinguish what they accept you're from the outside evaluators and what they kept. So I filed a state complaint and the state agreed that they did not provide me with a valid prior written notice. They need to document what was accepted and what was rejected. And that's how you have meaningful parent input and meaningful parent participation. My fourth must ask question-- yes, this is the question. What does this service look like day-to-day in the classroom? And this is especially, I think, it can be for any child, nonverbal, verbal, social emotional, especially-- I'm saying especially because I'm thinking about my son when I ask this question about what does the service look like in the day-to-day in the classroom is the social emotional rate. Say they have a goal that says your child will have access to the fidget-- to fidgets. So then what does that look like in the classroom, in general education classroom? Is there a box that's going to be sitting on this teacher's desk? Is there going to be a box on my child's desk? What does that look like? And so really have them document that, explain it, and have it clearly defined in the prior written notice and in the IEP. I think these questions cut through the noise and four schools to show their work. Does that mean-- Yeah, it makes sense. I love, first of all, I just want to dive into each of your questions. So the first one you had was about what it looks like. I think that was one of your questions of what it looks like. And for me as a BCBA, I want to know that, too. I view things as a video clip. What the service looks like. What the actual data looks like. So I want to know a little bit more. Rather than just, oh, here's a couple of data points where we had 75% and 80%. That's all fine and dandy. But what does that mean? And what does that actually translate to? So for me, I really appreciate the questions that you discussed because of the fact that, again, if I were coming into an IEP meeting, I would want to know the same thing. Especially your last question that you considered or that you asked was, what are some things that were considered but rejected? That would be something that I would want to look at as well. What were some of those options? Did you truly-- and in the behavioral analyst, behavioral analyst certification board code of ethics, we look at rolling out-- we rule out medical first before going into actual services. But in an educational standpoint, what are some things that you guys truly considered prior to actually making the choices that you made? Oh, Michelle. [LAUGHTER] Oh my gosh, because when you said that, I'm immediately thinking about my son's VCVA, right? She reached out to my son's school counselor and the special education chair to get a meeting on the book. So she could share what we were working on at home and see what can be implemented at the school level. Just trying to share progress that we were doing at home, how much promise I had made so much progress with the ABA therapy. I just-- I have to say, my personal experience with it is I love it. I have my son's confidence has grown so much. And I can only say positive things about it. We were on the wait list for two years, but we have the service now. And so I've seen a growth in him. And my-- just coming back-- because I kind of go down the river, I'll hold sometimes-- but going circling back to the comment about the conversation is that my VCVA was trying to connect with the school. And they were so resistant to meeting with my VCVA. So we finally had the meeting. And she asked those questions, but it was eventually, I think there was some dynamics there. Some-- I don't know exactly because I can't-- I don't want to name it, speculate. But there was just some type of dynamics that were there that were some hurdles, but we worked through those. And so eventually, the counselor adopted some of the recommendations that my VCVA provided. And he started to work with my son with those goals. And so we got to get the best of old worlds at home and at school. And so I think that is also something that parents should also know is that your outside evaluators can work with the school team. Just have to sign that waiver or not waiver permission to access the records, et cetera, that have the conversations. Yeah, absolutely. And as someone who's kind of dealt with the same thing, just getting a meeting can be really, really tough. And for me, as somebody who really wants to be able to work with the school, because, again, coordination of care, something that we're expected to do in our field, we want to help out. And I think, unfortunately, with BCVAs, we kind of do get a bad rep. But I think a lot of that does fall in the BCVA itself, too. So it's a two-sided coin, essentially. I know what I mean. I do. I agree. I agree. Absolutely. Absolutely. Kind of speaking of ABA and services in general, so there's always some confusion about services. What's covered in school versus what families might need to get privately? You've got things like OT, speech, physical therapy, ABA, which I know a lot of these can be offered in the school, but are not always offered. So how do you break down the service types for them? So, as you ask that question. And this is a not a one-size-fits-all question, because, again, it does depend on the child's needs, right? And so my answer to that is that schools only provide what is educationally necessary. That's a floor, not a ceiling. So sometimes you still need outside OT, speech, or ABA therapy. So I really think parents should know that, right? You might end up getting both. You might need-- your child might need services in school and outside services. So just keep an open mind about that. And that's my takeaway about that is that your child just may sometimes still need outside services. And families often do feel guilty for going to private therapy, but I just remind them that your child deserves a full life, right? And not just the bare minimum of school is willing to find. And I also know that that looks different for everyone, right? Because we're talking about economics, right? And we're talking about so many different dynamics access, right? Wait list, as I just shared, when we were on the wait list for two years, right? So I also understand that as well. And so my biggest advice to parents is it just depends on the situation, right? Because I give an example of this. I currently have two clients, right? Both are requesting and service OT. One child, the school district never did any evaluation to even rule out the need for OT services. So as an advocate, I can challenge the school district on that, right? So this is where I say it's not always a clear cut answer. It just depends on what policies and procedures they have followed. And then did they really meet IDA and Koma or your state laws requirement for ruling out in diagnosing, right, based off of the tools to child's access to the curriculum? So it does vary. And then I have another child who was receiving OT, but they changed it to a consult instead of direct services. It's just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What justification do you have here to change it from a direct service to a consult? And so my role as an advocate is I'm going to challenge it because where's your policy that says this? And then what data did you use to make this determination? So like I said, it is not at once. That's all it just depends on where your child is. And then what decisions have already been made? And typically when I'm coming in, decisions have already been made. So I have to see what happened before, year before, the year before that, right? To really dive in and say, oh, wait, guys, like this brings us back. This is what the child needs. And this was educationally necessary, right? So the goal is to help make the point of why it is educationally necessary versus something that needs to be addressed or dealt with outside at a private practice. And I know you're aware of this, right? We'll hear about the O.T. needs is We don't do this in the school district in the school system. This has to be outside OT. Same with speech. They'll they'll give you We don't do this type of service. You have to we only focus on pragmatics, right? So it just it just depends and so you again Challenge it we challenge it not because we want to be difficult because we want what is best for our children and because IDA says so right Dominious progress Chief just Robert Chief Justice Robert said some in 2017. Dominious progress is no longer acceptable Happy to share that case law that if you can do a quick Google search we'll quickly pull up that Supreme Court ruling and that is that is the Supreme Court ruling that we hold the school districts accountable to currently I love that and you know again I think you know it like you mentioned It's not a one-size-fits-fit all kind of process. That's exactly what our field in general is all about is you know It's an individualized thing and so that needs to go hand in hand with you know Families that are seeking out you know assistance for their child in school You know whether that be reaching out for additional evaluations Seeking out you know Having an IEP meeting getting an IEP in the first place, you know, so it's really crucial to understand like yes You know it is not a one-size-fits-fit all kind of thing But as long as you know we are fighting and we are you know Questioning things and we are also making sure that we're ruling out everything we have everything in front of us You know that's where that's where at the end of the day We want to make sure that you know like you said you said it best We're doing what's best for the child. It's not we're trying to be difficult. It's we're doing what's best for the child Yes, and when I say best because I this is a part that trips me up I know I don't have it in front of me, but I normally have a Squirt because I have to remind parents that The language that we want to use is not what's best for our child because best is And again take this with a grain salt best is what if the Is the considering of a car right best is a Honda Civic not a bit late right so when How the law when we say best we're not necessarily saying we want the Bentley we're saying we might want something in the middle of the Bentley in the Honda Civic, right? But again, it has to be tied to the educational need indeed the the disability that's impacting the access to the curriculum And so as long as we keep that at the forefront and not I want the best for my child It's more of a focus of I want my child to be able to Have their IEP implemented with full fidelity and that they're actually making progress So I try to tell parents to refrain from saying best and stick to was factually in your IEP Yeah, what's your child needs right take your fillings out of it. There's a great book by rights law From emotions to advocacy highly recommended I have a blog post on it of the top four rights law books that I recommend for families and also This is the book that Copa recommended in the C1.0 training. So if you can't afford the training They also wanted to put that plugin Copa does have a sponsor a scholarship that you can apply for If you're unable to Meet the you know have the I'm sorry losing my words But yes, they do have a scholarship that's available for families to apply to take the trainings So yeah, I just want to make sure I said that yeah, absolutely and you bring up a really really great point to because you mentioned when it comes to To language, you know some of the things that you were saying, you know Not necessarily saying what's best for my child, but just for them to be able to To you know follow the IEP with fidelity Language matters so much in advocacy. So what are some phrases or ways of framing that can change the outcomes for parents? I love this question. Oh, like I said I have a pre-post a pre-during and post checklist for my parents But I also have a script that I tell parents to keep up during their IEP meetings and I have a script that tells them what to say if they disagree what to say and And I want to say things that they can say they have multiple options of what they can say so for your audience I'll use this example because words do change outcomes Instead of saying can you provide speech therapy say IDA require services based on data and The data shows and then you speak to that data and you want to also again I'm not an attorney, but you want to put it on record So I would do it during an IEP meeting and I would or follow up in an email and writing so you have documentation of the request And it's just really important to know that asking that question IDA require services based on data and the data shows x, y, z that flips the power dynamics schools can debate opinions, okay? Yeah, but they can't argue I mean they can debate opinions they can debate you all day long about your opinion But they can't argue with law in the receipts, right? They can't argue with that. They'll bring their attorney into arguing but Absolutely absolutely I really appreciate that because you know, like you said, you know There's ways that we can frame these questions and you know, yes, we might have opinions, but when you tie it back to The law, you know, you can't argue the law, you know Let me tell you they will try They definitely will And I've seen it because I again, I Been doing this a little while and My own experience and then experience with clients who do have attorneys I see attorneys for the districts right argue so I've seen I've seen it they they will argue It's actually amazing to watch if you ever get to See that behind the scenes of and not amazing because it's actually devastating because it's academic harm to a child but To see the lawyers go back and forth arguing law I think it's powerful because It's a learning opportunity for me as an advocate, right of okay This is the language and this is what the argument is right so it to me is helps probably should say this but it helps me with my strategy right for my next client, right? Of saying okay, so this is what they got caught up with in the language or what they are arguing so okay Again, not practicing law not a avic not attorney, but just saying okay This is what I've learned and this is what I see so I think I would recommend this and you do this instead of doing x right And then I will share you know based off of my experience what I saw and why And so I really also in my advocacy I really try to make sure that I'm explaining things and giving parents the options and that it comes from them so as their advocate I am Communicating to them what iDAS is what our state law says and if you're in another state what your state law says and How to escalate into your board of education, right? How to write a state complaint? How to Look at your data graph your data like i'm really teaching parents all the things that I had to learn on my own And that no one else has taught me right that I had to spend money to learn and to gain and so my mission is to honestly teach A thousand women across these united states What they need to know when they're walking into an iap meeting and also started A pilot if you will of no parents at the ip table alone and so i'm trying to get parents to Partner and be paired together so that moms families are not showing up to the ip meeting By themselves because it's very intimidating. It's very lonely and as a parent of a disabled child My i'm speaking from my experience and then from also what i've heard is that You already feel alone you already are by yourself Especially with the children and i'm an autism mom I know some people hearing that might not like the term of autism mom I use the term because for me it explains What other autism moms what i'm going through like i see you and you see me and we both know that we have a walking different Journeys but some we share similarities right in the fact that we feel ghastly that we feel on her We're showing up to meetings. We're going to therapies. We're working full-time jobs The list goes on and on and on and then we still are having to fight with the district to get our child educated and so it becomes very Overwhelming and alone and so i really just want to make sure If i can and parents are buying into this right that they are not at the ip table alone and that they have someone that is skilled and understands which is part of my cohort as well I just kicked off a cohort I wrapped up on the 18th of aug No on the yeah on the 18th of aug as we wrapped up um and that was an introduction for we introductory Of what parents need to know going back to school and at the ip table and words that language that they can use How to file state complaints how to file OCR complaints where to go like all the things that I had to learn on my own Then no one showed me step-by-step and so i think that's a huge gap that's missing Sorry, let me be rambling You're good you're yeah, I appreciate that you know and i want to talk to you a little bit more about the attorney piece as well But first i'm going to go ahead and drop that first code word um that is ip receipts Something we have been talking about all podcasts is ip receipts So that is iep space r-e-c-e-i-p-t as that is IEP receipts. So going to the law, part in the attorneys part. So sometimes within your work, you consult with attorneys. What does that collaboration look like? And when should parents think about looping in that legal help? - Again, I'm so happy you asked this question because it's a very important question. And so I'll answer it. I'll consult with attorneys. And so working with attorneys, I tell parents to think of it as a relay. Advocates like me help families build the case, right? And so we organize their receipts and we walk into these meetings prepare attorney step in when you need leverage or your legal teeth, right? Sometimes I work alongside attorneys. Sometimes I keep families from needing one at all. Both roles matter and that is just the bottom line that I really try to emphasize to parents is that both roles matter, right? And I'm also too, I'm trying to keep off a September challenge starting September the first where it's a 5K challenge for parents to see if they can, you know, how much money can we save? Can we save collectively? Can we get to $5,000? Can you get $5,000 by yourself? Because if we can start to formulate a plan of how to have a just a bucket of money in case we needed to advocate, in case we need an attorney that, wait, also helps with empowerment, right? I'm empowered because I'm no longer stressed about, oh my gosh, I can't afford it. And I now know I have a bucket that I've been dedicating money to to support if this happens where I need an advocate if I need an attorney. And for my experience, I think this is again, very important for your listeners and anyone that's out there that's considering a higher-end advocate or an attorney specifically an attorney is, I think it's important for parents to understand due process, right? And what that means and what those timelines are, you'll need an attorney, you don't necessarily need an attorney, you can't file a per se. For due process, I don't recommend any parent go into a due process hearing without an attorney. What I have found, however, with my case specifically, with my son's case, is a due process hearing an attorney starting rate is $15,000. Yes, $15,000. Just so you guys are aware, 'cause this is a podcast, my job is dropped to, practically my desk, when she said $15,000. So just to give you guys some insight on that, that's so much money. I've spent over $20,000. Oh my God. On advocacy, I'll consult you with four to five attorneys in the state of Maryland, and I have paid a retainer to an attorney. Wow. Fighting for your child in the state of Maryland, in these United States is not cheap. And it's very unfair, in my opinion. I also have started a petition challenging the Maryland General Assembly to change the burden of proof and due process hearings for parents. It was presented to our house and passed in the house in Maryland in 2003. However, it did not pass in the Senate. And I believe that was that the chair wouldn't bring it to the floor for a vote. So I do have a petition out now requesting 5,000 signatures from a millionaires to get our Maryland General Assembly to change this law. There are other states in the country that currently do have the burden of proof on the districts opposed to the parents. My stance with that is that it's unfair already, right, where parents, right, the district is using our taxpayer dollars to fund and fight against us, right? How is that fair? How does that make sense? And then the districts create the IEPs. They're responsible for the data. They're responsible for implementing it with fidelity. Why is the burden of proof on me to prove that the district did follow compliance? You see, and so that's just my stance with it. And like I just shared, like the due process hearings, $15,000 a month. So you're telling me, and then if we look at the statistics, and that's just in Maryland, but as a whole, the due process hearings for parents, parents win less than 3% of the time. So if you are exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. So there are four parents to be silent. And so my stance is no more silence, parents, no more silence, no more helping that people are gonna do, right? They have already shown us who they are, what they're willing to do. Document it, get it on record, and let the state decide if they have upheld the law, right? It's not for us to determine whether or not this district has upheld the law. It's the state to decide that. So again, I will continue to push and encourage parents to file state complaints, to file grievances, to go to mediation, to due due process. Again, if you have the budget and the means to do so, and unfortunately, there are not a lot of pro bono attorneys out here that are willing to do a due process hearing for free. There's a lot of paperwork that goes into that, a lot of filing, a lot of stalling. Again, I'm not an attorney, but just sharing my experience. - Absolutely, and what is, let's say, you know, you have a family and they definitely need to file due process. You know, like you can tell that this is a situation where filing due process is a necessary step. But what happens if you have a family who can't afford that? What do you advise for them? - What I advise families to do that can't afford a due process hearing out, my first question always is have you filed a state complaint, right? Because state complaints, the timelines vary. We're not even very, there is, in Maryland, it's one year, right? You have one year from when an incident occurred to file the state complaint. And so if your comments, you know, if a parent comes to me now, August 27th, and they're telling me about an incident that happened last school year, my first question is, when did it happen and did you file a state complaint and what documentation do you have about the incident? If your child's being bullied, did you file a bullying investigation complaint? Where's the findings report that the school conducted? Like those are the type of questions that I asked, and then depending on what they say is then how I start to begin the strategy on how to get them to move things forward. There's a list of low costs or affordable, if you will, agencies, organizations in the state of Maryland that our Maryland State Department of Education has on their website. So I always share that with families, make sure that they're aware of Maryland disability rights. That's a huge nonprofit in the state of Maryland that takes on cases for families to fight. So I organized, and if the parent does have the money to do so, I helped them organize their files, right? So because that's how it goes, that's where you're probably, they're gonna ask for the private notices. They're gonna ask for the PWNs. I mean the IEPs, they're gonna ask for the psychological evaluations, the speech evaluations, the OT evaluations. They're gonna ask you for all this stuff, and again, from my own experience, get to ask all those questions, and you've been sent in multiple emails to the school district, and now the attorney's telling you, you need to give them all this documents. It's like, wait a minute, I have to work. So I try to, my focus is if they wanna move forward with a due process hearing, okay, let's get your files organized, and ready to go for an attorney, and just making sure that they understand what that looks like, what this means, so they're prepared. And I also get parents a list of questions to ask an attorney, or an advocate, right, of, what are you gonna do for me? And what does my case look like? And what happens if we lose? And what are also my additional alternative? So there's just a list of questions that parents should also ask attorneys when they're going in for a consult, when they're going in for, again, to decide who they want to hire for a due process hearing. Those are, you have a list of questions that you really wanna make sure you ask. Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's just, it's that much more important. Again, like you said, the receipts are huge, right? I feel like, in any circumstance receipts without them, you don't have a case, and that sounds harsh, but it's reality. Yeah. And that's just, that's really very, that's crucial. You have to have them. Take screenshots, take pictures, keep all of that documentation. I know that it's a lot, but at the end of the day, this is for your child, right? Yep. And I will share, I haven't shared this with anyone publicly. Yeah, but I will share with you guys. I found over 12 state complaints last school year. I still have two pending. Right now, I also have found a state complaint against the state of Maryland. I got back a findings that my son was the night a free appropriate public education. And so again, we are now in his eighth grade year, but I have been fighting the middle school since he entered sixth grade second quarter telling them that something is wrong. They're not following the IEP and with my documentation, with my receipts, I was able to get a letter of fineness from the state of Maryland that my son was denied a free inappropriate public education. I also have a office of civil rights complaint pending and they also are investigating my son's denial of a free inappropriate public education. And I share that it's not to brag, right? Because that's harm. That was a real fight. That was, that was again, all the money I spent to get, to get accountability, but it's the harm that my son has experienced. It's the harm that I have experienced and why documenting and having received a so vital and why I do what I'm doing right now is because I know what I know and I still was had to fight this fight. So I'm thinking about the parents that don't know what I know and have to fight in our struggling right now trying to figure out what they're going to do, terrified to send their kids to school because they're not verbal or because the environment is not safe for them because their children have been targets. I'm sorry because it's just I'm thinking of my clients right now, right? What they're going through right now and how they are being dismissed and it's just it's very heartbreaking. Yeah, it is heartbreaking and I appreciate you sharing that. I think that you know, this needs to this needs to be said and you know, this is why like you're doing what you're doing and you know, I personally really appreciate the fact that, you know, you're out there and you're fighting and you're making these complaints especially because, you know, you know, your child was done harm. They were they were not given a free and appropriate public education. You know that and you have everything possible, you know, to be able to complain about that. So for me, like hearing that really just really like is very inspirational and I really hope that people listening to this episode will understand, you know, yes, you did this and it was really, really hard but at the same time, you had to do you had to do it because harm was caused. Yes, yes. Harm was caused and the biggest takeaway, right? What IDA says is that our children while they're in their current setting in a public school is that they should be taught skills regardless of their disability, right? That they have taught, learned and developed these skills that helps them with a meaningful life, right? And if you are not following the IEP with fidelity, with not collecting data, not allowing parent input, you are denying the child a free and appropriate public education and I think parents must understand what that means a free and appropriate public education and how denials of services like speech, like OT, like counseling, like having access to fidges or a flash pass or whatever it is that your child needs a sensory room, right? That that is denying your child access. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, one of the things too, you know, we talk about facts, we talk about receipts, but one of the things that, you know, some parents aren't prepared for is the emotions that can come up in these meetings because you know, we're fighting for access, we're fighting for them to have a free and appropriate education. So, you know, when we talk about emotions that come up in those meetings, you know, what do you tell families? How do you go about that topic and how do you prepare families for those meetings knowing that those emotions could come up? Another great question. And I'm going to tell you too, before I answer this question, that was something that I had to learn for myself because which is also one of the reasons I can know what I know, but going into a meeting and you're advocating for your own child and people are telling you that your child doesn't have autism because yes, they told me or something, I have autism, they tried to reassess them for autism and guess what? So it's those type of things that happen to you that you thought I was I said, you know what, I need an advocate because I can't control my emotions right now, right? I need an advocate to be able to take a step back and be a listener while I have this person that I'm trusting to advocate for me and my son, right? So what I tell parents while they're preparing or how we prepare, I always have we have a prep meeting before the IEP meeting and we rehearse, right? And we can roleplay if they need to. Like I said, I have the list of the scripts that they can use, but I ask them during our prep meetings, you know, what is it that you want to discuss? What are your top priorities? What are your top concerns, right? Okay, so what are you what would be your response if they say no? I really try to prepare them for what are the current dynamics and especially if I haven't been to an IEP meeting yet, I ask about the current dynamics, what the relationship is like at the table, do you feel heard, etc, right? And so we just really practice and understand that. So depending on what they share with me about those dynamics, I try to roleplay that, right? So that parents date in control of practice in their tone, practice in their body language, no one wants to pause and wants to breathe. We have co words that they can say when they like Alicia, I'm about to go off. And so if they say blue, I know I can say, you know, I don't think this meeting is being productive anymore. I think we should reschedule and ended that way, right? And that's another thing because I had a mom's like, I know I could do that. Oh, I'm so happy. I'm so happy you just learned this like because now you're in power, right? And so there comes a point where my goal is that I'm teaching and advocating for families, but parents are also becoming their own advocate. Like and I'm training them up, right? And they're they're they're they're they're eventually they won't need me and if they do need me in the future, they can just tap in and say, okay, Alicia, this is what's happening. You know, they can use me for strategy necessarily then. You know what I mean? So it's just keep in parents at the center and there's no one that they are in control of this. And I'm here to support you and you tell me how you want me to lead this, right? And I'll give you my advice and my recommendations on this. But I want parents to say in the front and lead the conversation. And then again, use your cohort, say what you need to tell me what you need to say. So not tell me what you need to say. I'm sorry, but tell me again, during the upright meeting, tell me, you know, what your feelings are, how you're feeling about it because I have families that say like, I can't sleep before this meeting or I'm so stressed. And so I just try to give them tools about, well, what's your favorite song, right? What's your favorite drink in the morning? Do you are you prepared to have like, do you have that? Before you go to bed tonight, these are some strategies that you can do do some meditation, right? So I really try to also work on the wellness in the self-care side as well because I know that's a huge gap that we tend to have like we don't care for ourselves because we don't feel like we have time to. So I think by having the prep meetings going through and preparing for the emotions and then reminding them that they are, they are empowered and that they are the only member of these IEP teams that will never change. You will always be at the IEP table. The other people will come and go. So as long as you stay in that and you remember that, I think for my experience with my parents is that they walk away with confidence knowing that, hey, I have someone that's there for me, but also too, I know now that I can say, I don't think we're this meetings being productive, we need to reschedule. Or I need 10 minutes to break. What you just shared with me is a lot in any time to process. Can we have a 10 minute break? You will have to request breaks. Some parents don't know that. That's actually really interesting. I think I've never been in an IEP meeting where the parent requested for our break. So even for me, and I've been in probably at least like 20 or so IEP meetings now in my career. Not once have I ever heard a family ask for a break. And I know that that's like a small piece of it, but still. That's actually really interesting kind of hearing from from your perspective. And again, also too, you make an excellent point of you will always be at the table. Other people will come and go. I think that that's incredibly crucial to remember, because at the end of the day, like this is their child, I as a provider will come and go. Their teachers are going to come and go. Staff are going to come and go, but they are there. They are the consistent ones. And so that that I really resonate with that because again, you know, they're fighting for access. They're fighting for their kid. They're fighting for what their child needs at the end of the day. And people you'd understand that. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Love it. I'm going to go ahead and drop that second code word. That second code word is empower. That is EMPOWER. That is the word empower. So kind of on the line of schools too. So schools run on strict timelines, strict deadlines. You know, when it comes to all of the things. So what deadlines or timelines should every parent write down in bold letters on their calendars? Whether that be on a paper calendar or their electronic calendar, whatever may have you. Oh, you know, I love this and I have so much to say. Yeah, sorry. Let me ask you like, make a note too, because I want to make sure I call out a personal time. Okay. Timeline. Okay. What I'll say is the 60 day evaluation to be completed, right? So say your child is due for revaluation and that you'll know that on the IP. So up in the top, it again depends on your state, but it still should be on the first page. It should tell you when your child was last revaluated. When the IP expires because IPs are supposed to be reviewed every year. And I'll tell you when they did the last annual review. So when you're looking at your child's IP and look at you looking at the evaluation, if your child's evaluation day is September 15, right? They have 60 days from September 15 to complete that evaluation. So you want to say, okay, September 15, 60 days from September 15 and circle that on your calendar, put a flag, whatever you need to do, a sticker, I don't care. But flag says know that that's when the evaluation needs to be completed. Also, if you are new to the IP process and you want to find out if your child is eligible for an IP, the team has 30 days after eligibility to develop an IP. So know that they have 30 days to develop and implement the IP. And I think I covered this earlier, but I think it's really important as well, the state complaint. You have one year from when the incident occurred to file the state complaint, missing these deadlines is where parents lose ground. So I tell them to tattoo it on your fridge if you have time to. And then my last thing is that in my last cohort, we talked about this. We covered timelines, right? But I also told parents to take back control of your day and of your week and of your life, right? If you know you're going to have IP meetings, if you know that you tend to have three IP meetings a month, for example, I mean, not a month, three IP meetings a year, then go ahead and try to get those scheduled for the year, right? And do it before the child's annual IP is due. And also, I would say if your child, if you think your child is eligible for extended school year, make sure you have that extended school year, IP meeting, determination meeting before March, because most extended school year programs began to finalize before around April, I want to say. So you really want to just make sure you have those those dates locked in on your calendar, try to be proactive and get IP meetings scheduled and also decide for yourself. Is Monday's the best day to do IP meetings or Wednesdays? Do Fridays work better for you? And then if so, first figure out what day of the week works better for you to consistently have IP meetings, no matter what. Then again, it can be it can change. But if you know Monday's always work better for you, then schedule your IP meetings on Monday, put it in writing and say, moving forward, all IP meetings should be scheduled on Monday's between this timeframe. If it's 12 to 3, what 9 to 10, whatever it is, but take back control and say, this is what my availability looks like, they are getting paid to be at this meeting. You are not right. So remember, you have you're taking off of work to do this, right? And they're getting paid to do this until you know. So take back control and say, no, I can only meet during this day, during this time and please accommodate and let's, you know, let's figure it out. Because again, they are being paid to do this and you're being forced to take off work and, you know, have multiple meetings and. So I tell parents to do that. I also tell parents to also dedicate monthly pick a day each month. It can be the fourth Sunday of every month. It can be the second Saturday of every month. It can be the third Friday of every month. But pick a day each month where you're going to manage your child's IP binder or digital binder, right? Upload the private notices, upload the IEPs, upload the emails, save the, save the emails to your file. So you have documentation. And so if it does come to a point where you do need an advocate or an attorney, you are already. Have your documentation in order and ready to go and you're very clear and you also can help save money on doing a review. I'm going to be fully honest and transparent here. This is not me. But from my experience, attorneys and advocates love to bill for review and prep. So I advise parents to if you already have all this prep work done, you can cut down a lot of costs of doing some of this, this prep work. If you already have it organized and you're very clear about what, what it is, you're asking your advocate or your attorney to do for you, right? And asking for their strategy of how they're going to move things forward. Uh, again, stay in control of your finances, stay in control of the timelines and your calendar. I know that was loaded. Well, I get that for sure. And, you know, I think I think that's really important. I think, you know, it sounds like even though yes, there's a lot of times, you know, that you have to write down at the same time. Like this is ultimately going to help the success, you know, if you have to do all of the filing or if you have to, you know, take time out. The thing is like this is their child, you know, they're the ones that are having to, you know, call out of work for the day. That way they can, you know, be there for their child. And, you know, like you mentioned, the staff members are there to be paid to be there, you know, they're, they're not just like their, they're not there for free. It's not problem over them, you know, right? So, yeah. That's going to say, and I think that's also two part of why we have some of those power plays in the room is that I'm being paid to be here. You're not right. And regardless, after we leave this meeting, I'm going to go back to my regular day in my life, while as you as the parent that's in this room, you now have to unpack what everything that just was said about your child, everything that they just refused about to give you the services to your child, you have to walk away with unpacking that where they get to go on about their day with whatever else they have going on. I'm not saying so parents still have that harm of what was just done to them in that meeting of the top of the harm that they came into the meeting with, right? And so I just want to remind parents to just really stay focused on what you can control, right? And part of that is controlling the timelines and understanding the timelines and understanding and controlling your day in your week and how you advocate for your child. And just to kind of wrap up to you know, AI is everywhere right now, you know, and we're talking and you know thinking about the future of advocacy, thinking about the future of you know future of school advocacy and just everything, everything with relation to IEP's due process, all the things. How do you see the future of advocacy going and do you feel that AI fits into the picture? I encourage families to use AI actually because again, I'm not doing this to get rich. I'm doing this because my son was harmed and if my son was harmed and other children before him were harmed, there's children behind him that are going to be harmed and how can we stop the harm? So I encourage families to utilize AI, chat GPT, Gemini, etc. Right? So AI is changing the game. Parents can use it to draft letters to graph your data to rehearse what to say in meetings, but I do remind families AI is a tool and it's not a replacement for hard. Advocacy takes both receipts and relationships so you you have to also remember right you don't know what you don't know right and so you may be against paying for an advocate or paying for an attorney, but I will remind you you don't know what you don't know. And so if that is your stance that you're not going to spend money on an advocate on an attorney, I would challenge those parents to leverage AI to find out what it is they don't know. Right to do more reading. Grab some of the rights law books, grab some grab a membership with Copa and kind of turn things around, but even still again with my knowledge and what I know. And I didn't even drop all of my, you know, education background stuff like that, but just with the advocacy work that I've done. I still have had to retain an advocate. I still retained an attorney. You see, you understand what I'm saying. So it's not it's not saying that you will never need it. It is it is something that I believe as an advocate that AI will not replace the knowledge that an advocate or an attorney necessarily will bring to the table right and to be able to argue that or. Challenge for you in real time during the meeting right because while you're using the AI tool to draft your language, you also have to be able. to stand on that in the meeting, right? You have to be able to leverage what you just communicated in the email when you're staying in the federal or state laws or the non-compliance. You also have to be able to communicate that and keep that on the record during the IEP meeting. And I also, I didn't mention this, but I do also recommend for families to record their IEP meetings. IDA does not say that you can't, you might want to check your state law to see what it says and also check your district. Rolls around recording your IEP meetings. I also would share that if you are a parent with a disability and you need the meeting to be recorded to help with your processing, etc. You can also document that for you to have the ability to record your IEP meetings. I record all of my IEP meetings. I also encourage all of my clients to record their IEP meetings. Because also when you file state complaints, you can submit your recording as evidence. Interesting. Do you just have a curiosity? I don't know if this is a state-by-state thing. Do you have to disclose that you're recording? Yes, you do have to disclose. And so what I did personally and what I have had my clients do is we said, drive the email to the district to the compliance office. And if we're on them, then we move before we are requesting to record IEP meetings, please ensure that we have the recording capabilities and remind them that current state and federal law does not say that we are not. And there are no procedures that say I cannot. So please honor my request. Wow, wow, that's actually really good to know too. So again, you know, as someone who's been in multiple IEP meetings, these are things that even like I didn't even know. So it's really great to have you come on here and explain, you know, from your perspective and not just from your perspective and experience, but you know, what is applicable and what is part of the law and what can be done and what can't, you know, what your rights are. I think that's just that's so, so important. I really appreciate your insight, so very much. Thank you. Thank you. It really has been a journey. It's been a lot of nights of me crying. I remember my last IEP meeting. I had eight IEP meetings last year. And two hours each, right? So again, not being paid for these, but they were being paid to send these meetings. And so what I have learned is that removing your emotions, speaking to facts, not opinions, right? What are the facts? The facts, the facts, the facts, the facts, sticking to the facts, not the emotions, planning ahead has really been beneficial for me. Knowing how to research case law and also knowing where to go on them, you know, US Department of Education, the website under looking at IDA regulations, etc. Like that has been really game changing for me and I hope by sharing this with your audience and those that hear it. That they take away some of these steps and things that they can do differently to advocate for their child. And I am always available. I have free consults for parents. I try to make this as affordable as possible. Because again, I understand I'm living it. I get it. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Well, again, Alicia, thank you so much for coming on today's podcast. Where can our listeners find you and contact you if they have any questions or just anything that they need at all. Yes, thank you so much for having me. If you're listening and ready to step into advocacy differently, I want you to know you don't have to do it alone. Call for two of the IP files Academy kicks off September 21st and Roman is open now. If you want ongoing peer support, join the no parent alone membership where parents are matched and supported at the table. In this September, we're running a 5K challenge helping moms save for advocacy attorneys or whatever supports their child needs. You can connect with me at the ipfiles.com that's THE IEP F I L E S.com and our social media at the IP files. Remember you deserve support. Your child deserves more and you never have to walk into an IP meeting alone. Thank you. Thank you so much, Alicia. And thank you so much everybody for tuning in. I've been your host Michelle Zeman and I will see you on the next one. Bye everyone. [Music]