From Play to Performance: The Benefits of Gamification in Business with Jasmin Karatas

It's a me, Mario! If you know that reference, then you have probably played a game or two in your lifetime. Today we are bringing games to process mining, storming the leaderboards leveling up his character and rescuing Princess Peach, it's Jakub, how are you doing today? Patrick, I'm tired. I mean, you think so many mushrooms on the way that makes a person tired. If I can imagine, with us today is Jasmine Caritas, gamification advisor and strategic designer to tell us all about the nature of gaming and how this can be leveraged in your day to day. Game on. Patrick, I got to be honest, these beginnings and starts of the episodes are getting progressively harder because you have to somehow introduce the guests, you have to introduce the episode and I'm sort of running out of ideas here, however, however not for this one. Do you remember when we were in ICPM conference, the process mining conference last year in Bolzano, and we had this lovely evening talking about computer games? Oh yeah, I remember. I guess it was interesting. Yeah, it was fantastic and when I was growing up, I spent a lot of time playing computer games and everybody, or by everybody, I'm implying my mother and my family always saying, "Just stop, it doesn't bring you anywhere, waste of time." Who would have thought that a couple of years later you would not only be able to work as a developer in a computer game industry, you could actually play and stream your gaming and make a lot of money out of it, but you could also influence the way people are working by introducing some of the super interesting systems that are rooting from the game, rooting from the gaming industry, but also other games could be also board games and everything and apply it to even improve business processes. I mean, that's just crazy and we've seen it previously with one of our previous guests on the show with guys from Škoda and today we have Yasmin Karatas, who is actually expert in gamification. Yasmin, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thank you, having me. Yasmin, first question, would you call yourself a gamer? Yeah, for sure, I'm probably not a pro gamer and probably not somebody who plays a lot because time is limited. But yeah, I'm a gamer, yep, I'm totally agree, so it was time when I was younger, I played some games occasionally and then in my teenage years, but I'm not a heavy gamer to be honest, so I'm not playing like three hours a day or something like that, but I enjoy gaming a lot. Can you tell us your favorite game that you've ever played? Yeah, so my favorite game is Detroit Become Human. It's a story based game, it's more or less like an interactive movie, so it's in between each and the last one I played and I enjoyed really, really a lot was God of War, Ragnarok. It was so lovely, I mean, a lot of hard fights, really, and I played in the hard mode, not in God of War mode because that's too hard for me. But the story of the father, this very strong, masculine, hard, wired kind of guy who raises his son and needs to accept as his son is getting older and this story is just wholesome. Wholesome your hard strings. Yeah, and it's really, I have to say, one of the coolest games I ever played as well, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure both myself and Patrick, we do have a good depreciation for adequate and very good computer games. Depends what you like to play, right? True, true. Yes, I mean, on your LinkedIn profile when anyone goes into it and reads the about information, it says that you are a gamification advisor and consultant, UX expert speaker content creator, who helps to create emotional and gamified experiences that your audience can't get enough. What does it mean? If you are explaining to your friends, to your family, what you're doing, what are you doing? Okay, try to explain it very easy. Every emotion what you have in a game, I try to convey into business and real life. Wow. Okay. I mean, I know that I have had some pretty good experiences playing video game, a lot of fun. Is that the same thing and how are you supposed to interpret this? Yes, the thing is that games are not just fun, they are hard work, they are different types of fun, there's a different type of progress and they are a different type of people who play different kinds of games. And so what I'm very interested about is what games are doing with us and it's not just digital games, it's the phenomena of games or play, so to say. And how that triggers first obstacle, psychological, sorry, parts as well, then trigger how we behave, but as well, body language and body man, so to say. And on the other hand, as well, there are certain biases, like behavioural, economics, as part of it. Then as well, if you go back really, really far back in this phenomena, it's as well about how atoms are working to each other and physical rules and so on and so forth. And this is what I try to tap into. It's a really, really big and broad field and this kind of observations from science and I'm not a scientist, I tap into it, I try to understand this and try to bring that back into the processes of learning and the processes of how we continue and grow in the processes of life and many other things, because we are human beings and human beings, they play, they do that since they are baby and even before that our brain is white to do so. I mean, you can even see other species playing, right? You can see like horses, pigs, like basically any species, give them a ball and they'll start playing with it. Now, my question is, it's a very complex field in this gamification, general approaches. I wouldn't say fairly new, but you know, it's an up and coming subject of interest. My question is, how does someone get into this field in the first place? You mean in general or me? For me, it was really like, how should I say, it was like something which just happened to be and become something really important in my life. So my brother is a gamer and I was probably the first kind of fan of his gameplay. So he sports kind of cheer, he's foreign, half years older and there I didn't understand what to do with that. And I studied design, a product design, so industrial design. And then there was this book which is called Reality is Broken from Jane McGonigal and why games can make the world better, something like that. And for me that, I read that book and then I was like, oh my god, that's key to manipulate people into something and I got interested. And then it got very obvious that she's talking about some kind of gamification, but she calls it alternate reality gaming and that is where my journey started. But if you are into gamification, you probably are either you wanted to manipulate people, you wanted to trick people into a behavior, you wanted to help people into and motivate people into a certain behavior, you wanted to make something better or more fun. That's where usually the journey is starting for others. And then they're looking into some books, like external gamification or they read a lot about it on the internet and I have to say the internet is okay, should I look it up. But then you start with points, patches and leaderboards and then you read something that says that is totally bullshit and then you go into the opposite direction into storytelling, then you find out how that's not the secret key and then you're you're kind of totally messed up and then you're thinking, oh my god, what do I do now? And then you start your own journey and that is the best to start. And I would love that people start at that point and not look into and I tell you what that point is and not look too much into like what are they just doing. What games are about and gamification is about. If you have a game you love and you understand and it can be it doesn't need to be a digital one because they're very complex, start with a board game you like. It can be risk, it can be a roomy cop, it can be whatever poker. You understand that game that rules try to apply those rules to workshop, try to apply those rules to a process you may want to change. It's a lot about experimenting. And I would love that people start with that rather than just read about it then start reading about it. Why is that like that because then you understand it better rather than to get an idea of somebody who is on a different journey like you or then you. So if we are faced with some sort of you mentioned workshop and you think it would be pretty interesting, pretty cool to apply the rules on an actual workshop. How do you even start conveying this idea that it could be interesting and what would you even start with for a person who likes the idea, resonates with the idea of maybe bringing some of the gamification ideas on the board. But what those are in the first place and how do I even begin. So usually a workshop is about getting things done. It depends truly on the workshop. I mean it depends, is it a learning workshop, is it something where innovation takes place and so on and so forth. All of these workshops have something similar. You have an agenda, you have people taking taking taking place there. You have ideas and so on and so forth. That's always the same and it has a certain and has a end and it has a certain group dynamic. So that is what the game is about as well. It has an end, it has a start, it has an end, there are a group of people. So what we can do is, instead of giving those people just any or their names, give them other tasks at the beginning, let them experience what the avatar in that context could be. Then instead of having a agenda, you call the agenda points levels. With those levels, you can call them really fun names, but something which makes sense. And on the journey, people can write down what they've learned, so on their hero cards and stuff and that is something which then gets at the end that the people can take away. The learning is completely different because it's dedicated to them, so you're shifting the context completely around and that is what you can start already the next workshop and it's easy to apply and then you can look if there are certain other rules you wanted to apply towards it which are a little bit more in game like and then you can look how it works and if it feels fine, continue with that, if not, you need to change something. Game design is not about to have at the beginning a perfect game because that's not what happening. Game design is something where you need to play through and experiment and balance it out till you have a perfect match and then still there are DLCs and whatever, so new chapters of a game which are developed and so forth and a game is not and that is what people usually not understanding gamification is, gamification has the end and should have the end. Even games have an end, they have an end. So even World of Warcraft which is a massively multiplayer on the roleplay game, sorry. So a lot of people play together, has a certain start and a certain end. They have new narratives coming into play at a certain point of time and that is what a lot of people don't understand about or don't understand about the gamification part that it can and it should have an end. It's not foreseen for me staying since and for always and forever and they heavily lived. How is that ending for fairytale, I just forgot it. Ever after. Ever after. So that's not that's not that's not that's a fairytale. I'm sorry. You you mentioned experiencing like a meeting like with instead of a participant as an avatar. Can you for the people that don't know what an avatar is? Sure. So an avatar is something what you would choose as a kind of, I would say, representation doesn't matter if it if it's a human or not, but you identify yourself as that representation. It could be a picture, it could be hero, a well-known Superman, Batman, Supergirl, whatever. It can be a rainbow with eyes, whatever. That's an avatar standing and representing you as a person, but maybe in a different way. I always wondered, given your line of work, the people choose avatars for themselves. How important is the representation of yourself in the avatar, like does it say a lot about you as a person or, or not at all? It depends on the game. You're not always choosing your avatar to be honest, coming to the later. For people, it can it differs for people how important that is, but usually it is very important for people to have not the real representation of themselves, but try out and experiment maybe something different. So usually what we see or what is quite common in games that males or people who identify themselves as males usually tend to take a female character, which is funny, but to experiment or because they like how it look like or whatever and behave and so on and so forth, but it really depends on the game. Sometimes it is just like something you want to experiment or a feature you want to just like to add on something or want to be completely different. And I have to say in story games or in role play games, you usually play a very certain character like Tomb Raider or the Witcher, you are a certain character, you cannot choose because you're playing their story. So in Detroit become human, you have four characters for different and you cannot choose if they are male, female or big or small or skin color, that's what you can't choose. Yes, I mean, I want to bring it back a little bit to this business world and that is, you say that you are an advisor and you provide the asset and knowledge how to create one of a kind gamified experience. Could you give us an example of your typical project and what kind of a customer would you serve and in what way? Because that's actually super interesting for me because I still have a hard time picturing on how such a project for you would look like. I try at least the best to bring innovation to my clients. So it is really different layers, how I can help and what I do for my clients, it really differ quite a lot, it depends first if it is a big client, like a Fortune 500 client. Usually I work with smaller and more innovative startups, but for the big clients it's usually so that they are coming, they have a certain task, what they wanted to achieve. So I give you a concrete or two concrete projects. One was for a financial sector in India and they needed to, they give mortgage to people who cannot afford a phone or a laptop and now I know that's maybe something we would kind of be suspicious and Europe about but they see themselves to help people to go and open up and get education and be able to do a different kind of job or go to college and use a laptop so that's how their narrative spins around and what we do or what I did there is to look at first the process, how to know your customer so because they are giving mortgage they need to know the customer quite a lot, they need to be identified and so on as a fourth. So I need to understand that process and make that process first lean but as well to gamify that and that was quite hard because they wanted to do a countdown on that and I said listen guys that's not what we can do because the data is going can be then corrupted because they are not focusing on putting the data in the correct way which is wanted to make it fast and as well to make it playful in a way how they search or how they pay back their mortgage so in time and so on and so forth that they feel rewarded to give unpaid or the fees back in time so that they are not falling back in pay a lot more than that and so we build it as well so for India or for that space it's kind of important to understand their completely different culture they are more about status and where they are and points badges and leaderboards and getting coupons and whatever so get something back it's very very important for them in Europe that would not work and that is what we then need to apply or what we were asked to apply and so in this kind of very special project I designed the concept I designed the gamification backbone which means if that happened what happens then how does the level structure look like how does the I would say punishment kind of look like if there is one is there is what rules and restrictions are there and even so I wrote the user stories for how it needs to be implemented with the technical guys and for the UX and for smaller companies usually for startups they're reaching much more early to me and I'm more I have more freedom in how the business model as well looks like because they can shift the business model on the way a little bit more so I give them more on the idea and flavor what they can do but I say to them okay listen you need to first as well check if that is working for you if that is working for your clients I would do that and that as a feature so I go through there with them we go through their journey first I ask them who you are why are you doing what are your principles what are you well used and then I look into what are you target users and if you have data fine if you don't we look into what you want us to attract us users what values do they have what principles do they have and what emotions do they want to have if they're using a product and then I combine that into a process which I have into emotional process and there I look okay how do I bring all of these together and what kind of mechanics could help and that for in for instance was now a positive feedback app or application for companies where people should give other people positive feedback but if you just reward them to give them CUDA cards that's the word for it so CUDA cards are I may you know them or more heard of that if you just reward them for giving CUDA cards it wears off so there are certain times which you can make it more interactive and fun and engaging and more meaningful and that is what I'm looking into I give my ideas and give some high-level designs and how I would do that and then we discuss that and then they are a little bit more open in their technical how they wanted to do it and then they come back to me when they are at a certain point and have a problem or now I did complete quests for them for a journey but the journey is not necessary to do so I have sometimes more freedom with startups and that is very satisfying for me to be honest so you mentioned a lot of interesting things one of those is the emotional process that I want to circle back to but in imagining the output of your work you mentioned that it's like an application is it something that a user can go on and check their profile and their level status and all these things is it always an application or could it be like an alternate reality type of thing or a document or what's the range here it truly depends so I do from analog workshops to analog escape games to complete full-fledged digital hardcore integrations it really so what I'm not see the thing about gamification is this method you can apply to whatever doesn't matter what it is and that's the beauty but as well it's it's the heart out of what makes me a lot of hard times sounds like a very creative field for you to generate a whole bunch of different applications of this method yeah and it is but the thing is that if you apply that method always the same is always an application where you can go and look up your status that gets boring so I try to see and build it a little bit more in the game like way which is not just a gamified approach so I try to mix a lot of different how should I say mechanics and methods for instance now in that positive feedback journey I don't know who completed the target users would be we can say that they should feel like this and we wish that that blah blah blah but there are certain types of people in it who I always give the reference some people love to play shooter games some people love to play story games like me others love it more strategic and we never know 100 percent what people love to play what and so for me it is important to design different ways into a whatever it is application analog way process whatever that a lot of people have different ways to engage and experience what it is about so for me it is very very important to really take the key of what this whatever we are building is about emotionally and what the task is about that is what I try to make as an experience as much as possible now yes mean process mining let's let's let's put it into a role play kind of a thing as a part of preparation for this episode I was thinking how could we make it spice and interesting and the honest business process management is probably one of the dullest disciplines there is careful now Patrick let's be honest with one another right yeah okay it's it doesn't are all many many heads around when I start speaking about process mining when I'm in a pop or something it's it's an environment where you are trying to improve something as a you know business process which you don't even can't really even come conceptualize and imagine like is it good if it's efficient 2 percent or not and it's difficult to roll and get everyone excited about you know continuous improvement about adoption of the work that you are doing because there's so many tackles that you have to you have to do to even get the people moving and so I was thinking let's imagine this mean that you are a process mining consultant that Patrick does an amazing job and creates an amazing report with great insights about your company where he pinpoints all the inefficiencies all the bottlenecks and he hands over to you and now you are there and your number one task is to make these insights I would say fly in a way that the company makes actions based on the findings and improves themselves because that's the whole purpose of doing process mining in the first place so either we can build a complete kind of narrative narrative around it gamelike which a lot of games usually there are a lot of games which are completely strategic which are just about improving things I mean to build the best factory for instance and you need to improve a certain stuff and the fun part about this is that to be honest a company is nothing different it is a factory in a certain system and the fun part is if we're giving those insights a certain maybe a certain different kind of what it does a certain kind of how should I say and that is now a machine or that is now a assembly line or whatever to make it more concrete to people who may are not in that field because CEOs they look at it and think okay good what should it with that because maybe they don't understand everything about what is on there and sometimes if you if you give them an example it doesn't matter if it is like a legal and you have different colors for that and putting it into the right place and try to make them understand if you have that and you're putting all the stecks above it and it's just like a one tiny basis it will probably crack at it or fall down at a certain height and so you can make them experience first that they are a little bit more open that's just beginning to get into the insights and look into the inside that they understand how important it is to really take that serious because if they don't have that in place the tower a certain kind a certain scale of company it will crash and smashed and then what else could be done is if it's going into the implementation phase you really could could do something like a dashboard where people see what their impact really is in real time and that that is very important the feedback the direct feedback not one year later direct feedback in or in time feedback is very very key and that is something where you can use game technology like the Unreal Engine which wishes recently say is is there to visualize real time data and that you can put in there and if you see something where your insights were put into place it changes everything and that is something very important that people can see their impact and even if you wanted to give people you can put it scale it up and scale it down in the gamification area if you have people who live with an avatar or whatever we talked about you can put skill sets on their place what they now change and their achievements and so forth and so on so that they can grow with the implementation they did and what that is is people in a workplace usually love to have a certificate to show somewhere they love to have a certain kind of learning curve or whatever if it goes to the implementation part somebody needs to implement it because usually what we have is okay we have to project and the others when you change jobs they need to believe what's standing on there and that's the reason why a lot of people love to have something like certificates and stuff but that is just one part of of the side I think that there can be multiple areas stuff what can be done from my point of perspective so I you know one of the core processes that we very often work on is basically improving invoice processing making sure that the company is paying on time and if not you know we have to dig into the root cause is why is that the case and I actually I have to agree with you that this instant feedback on how they are doing is super cool because we've done it with one of our core products the applicator payment checker you know if they verify that there's the applicator payment then just check it and it instantly goes into this category of this is how much we save because we prevented the applicator payment however not always it's the case that you can just simply put a label on something like okay you did this and it probably will take a year to improve something and there's so many areas that you could go into and of course there are also different stakeholders in these projects because there will be different motivation for business users and different motivation for data analysts yeah I mean what should I make out of that I mean you need to understand truly the motivation of those people and as well why they're doing a certain thing because they have a certain goal what they wanted to achieve whatever it is right and that is something you can land them sometimes as well you need or help them to achieve in such a system sometimes to be honest if it's about business and hard business might not say if you don't pay in time there's a consequence because that is something which usually works as well quite quite well if it's something about okay people usually not talking about punishment and gamification but it is something which works quite well for the brain so if you make that aware upfront where you give that risks and mitigations and you can make kind of a simulation that you say see if you don't pay that in time and that not in time and always like not in time there will be some fees which will be calculated like and that is at the end of the year it makes that some you can save that if you put that that and that into into place so that is something what could help to achieve that quite easily because people working they are different from their from the mind and processing certain areas and get motivation and on the other hand if you have an analyst right he loves maybe to dig into certain areas maybe you identify an area which is a problem whatever it will be as a problem or whatever it is as a problem give those persons the opportunity to may play a little bit like detective so that they can observe they can dig into and put a strength into place and that right it is now very hard to say put that and put that and put that into place because I don't know all to be honest gamification is a lot a little bit about like data money because I need a lot of data to understand where is it going what are we doing what are the certain stakeholders are doing to be able to say make that is a game but listen the fingers as long as you understand what the motivation is for those people you will understand why they are doing it and that is very important to understand and it is a job and this job description has some certain jobs to be done so that is what you can put and mix together in a certain way and that you can put even into a career kind of movement like what could it be where do you want to go through and the development can be in that certain direction as well I mean that's now out of the box talking right so you mentioned that for example consequences aren't really part of gamification but I mean like a big part of games in general is a significant consequence like super Mario if you hit a plant you have to reset the level and things like that why are consequences like that not a big aspect of gamification see the the thing is that how should I say in business people don't want to make mistakes they don't want to have a failure they just wanted to have the happy end at the whatever I don't know they wanted to have it fluffy but business to be honest it's not fluffy and a game is not fluffy it is not happy happy happy you will have failure because you need to learn and that is what a lot of times in gamification is how should I say not really talked about because they say all gamification is part of making it positive positive positive you are not learning if you're not failing and for this you need to make failing fun so because a lot of frustration is part of of a good game and emotions are part of a good game in a good game you're maybe not completely hopefully not smashing your controller you will get angry at a certain point if you if you're playing three days in a row try to take that boss monster down okay you need to change a lot of things you need to look what what strategies I use what kind of like combinations did I use whatever what what did I do you need to analyze you need to change something and that's the same what you do in business but we are not allowing our people to enjoy this that they are failing that they make their experience and that they may write it down and they get not punished punished but understand that they need to begin at the beginning and start again like positive feedback for for failing yeah positive feedback for failing but still at the failing you you have a game over right it's it's not that positive but it gives you a break it sets to you now try again and in a system you know exactly when something is wrong you know you can tell the you can't but the system will tell you and so the system can take you out and say I don't think that's right start from the beginning maybe it's the next time and it's not about the educational part it's more about getting the best out of both words because the system knows exactly right or wrong but the human need to get creative which a system per definition if if it's not a machine learning or not the AI which as well need an intent for me human being cannot do but that is what human beings are unbeatable and patterns and creativity mm-hmm. One of the major issues is that while I totally agree with you and I have I love this focus on the motivation of each of the group that you're working with I think that's that's beautiful because sea level who is responsible for the project will have different incentives than the business users which will have different incentives than the project manager yeah and that's that's great however we are still very often failing at this point where we have the product we may even understand the incentives and we have the problem highlighted in front of everyone's faces or eyes but we are still failing and at at making it really everyone's problem and bringing them into the solution that we provide them with on regular basis and basically um hooking them in I would almost almost say by the way great book hooked it. It is a great book a great book hooked is a really good one but I have to say you need to change one thing and that's it misses like the motivational part the action is like because the feedback loop is kind of hard to understand if you're not changing that that part um but but that's another that's not a topic it's just like add on to understand it better um because the trigger is usually misunderstood from my point of perspective um and that is something which is very important the trigger and that needs to come from the outside and a lot of people mix extrinsic and intrinsic reward with that hook model because they say I need to have an intrinsic reward but the trigger comes from outside um that means you need to have something which pulls you into the habit loop so to say um and then which is is then you have the the trigger um I think the motivation action and then reward right incentive reward something like that and the thing is that the action usually is okay what do I need to action and then the incentive is whatever that sometimes mixes people up um it is good to see that you get you play a game because you're interested in we need to differentiate that you're not interested in your job maybe I'm sorry to say but it's your nine to five it's your nine to five you earn money with that yeah yeah we have to be honest it's it's not a game we go there because it's it's it's it's something we need to do because everybody needs to earn money and hopefully we have fun while doing so hopefully so so we are recording podcasts that work I mean I'm having fun here so no that's good I mean that is why why you know like it's getting more and more important for people to make live meaning a life and work meaningful that's why the purpose part is coming in here and what you probably miss is exactly that meaningful and purpose which probably would help if you're putting a little bit more story and framing into how you tell people why they're doing it if they as or so it could work in different kind of ways because if they're not improving and we are now in a recession I'm sorry to say but there are a lot of layoffs right now in the tech in the tech area and if you're not lean in this process you may lose your job in the future you don't have to have that as a narrative however if you put it into another kind of storytelling mode that it's and framing that it's more into the job that the people understand my job what I'm doing even if it's a small part is very very meaningful and that always reminds me of Momo I don't know if you know Michele enders Momo like that's a it's a book about a little girl and she fights against a gray man of time so they stealing the time from people away and there is this street cleaner and he usually does this step by step and very good and one day Momo visits him again and he's very rushed and very into stress and he asks as she asks him why are she so in stress and he says because I see the end of the of the road and I need to do that in time and I need to faster and I need to do it you know like very and she sees that there's no joy anymore in every step he's doing and he's doing mistakes it's not as clean as before it's not as passionate as before and what that shows is if you may not give people the end goal like the end thing what they need to achieve in a narrative way maybe in a future of time whatever we don't know when but give them that their work what they're doing meaningful and why they're doing it and why it is important for whom they are doing it and how does it go into the process and I think that is very important and that is what games are doing quite well if it is a narrative or a story game they understand that you give a narrative but this narrative is not a stupid one and the goal is something not just save the princess it has some meaning and on that way you understand that everything you may do has an impact on the story you're playing and that is why I love Detroit become human because that's exactly what a game is about one of the concepts of doing process mining and do is business process management is that it never ends they they call it you know continuous business process improvement loop for a reason and at the beginning you mentioned that one of the things that you should always be aware of is for the game to have an end so that you have something to strive for how would you tackle this in our approach for because process is something that you can always keep improving so would you just like cut it into smaller pieces and I would call put it into smaller achievable pieces yes because just again giving you the reference of World of Warcraft which is one of the massively multiplayer online roleplay game which is now here for 12 years more so it's very long lasting and a game you revisit or have different narratives so it has certain levels and with every level you are earning whatever it will be and you have a master repart and you need to now understand okay do we have a mastery part in process mining don't or don't we have if we don't you need to pull up new kind of narrative and different levels kind of away because what you're doing or you need to have endless levels but at a certain point endless levels get useless in our brain we get used to certain things so what I would do is you have a year you have a half year or whatever kind of looking into a process probably I don't know I would guess and in that kind of I start an end you can put a certain kind of whatever you wanted to push in that kind of achievement and unlocking and whatever and in that kind of field you have a certain heavy end it doesn't need to have the end as we always think the game is over it as well can have a time and in time so and hour or 10 days or what so on yeah I mean there's also I mean expansion packs right come to mind so you can just download the duplicate invoices expansion here for some for some of our stations exactly yeah just the endless expansion packs you can as well put it into a product I mean that is something I as well give as an advice to startups I'm working is give something for free if if you need but if you have a lot of cool features which can be one feature one pack just just don't sell it on not not give it for free sell it on top because you never know if that is something you need to you know like everybody's playing or not playing if it is a gamified thing so for the quest for instance not everybody loves to play quests mm-hmm so that needs maybe something to be out of the normal kind of basic however if somebody wants that it is a totally plus and as well what we need to or what we looked into or what I usually look into is again the different persons who has contact to the process or to the application whatever what are the targets what are the motivations because maybe they need to be different dashboards visualization is a big part of of gaming as well making it juicy making it interactive making it fun to use but easy to use mm-hmm and so they're different in that case they're different dashboards for different uses which sounds familiar if you're talking like okay for a normal take okay sure the admin should have a different kind of dashboard but for feedback cards why should there be different dashboards because a team lead has completely different motivations looking onto his team what change how they feel that he can mitigate if somebody feels bad or good or whatever or the the effectiveness of the team goes down and he and as well may in the dashboard it shows that they're unhappy he can ask them hey what's wrong can I help you do you have stress is something wrong with the family what's on whatsoever and for the personal use he probably is the same as a normal single user and then for teams as well it's a different usage as for a single user and that is what you need to take into account how is the power play in this setup is a single player mode is multiplayer mode is there admin what is necessary for them and how do I visualize that and how do I help them to get their business done in the right right way and understand it and may there is a beneficial part and that comes on top it is something which for my perspective should not be in the basic version it should something be on top not every company needs that not every company wants that but it's important that you develop it so I'm this is I have a really good question I mean these are the acid creation of this I mean making the things look fun and all the the the UX that goes into that I mean how much of your work actually is spent creating that fun factor a lot in in in concepts a lot I'm not the UI guy so I usually help to understand what it should be and how they can do it so for instance because it's we are now in that narrative of that feedback giving thing we use emotes or stickers or memes and stuff to make it more understandable fun and that it's a little bit more animated it makes more fun to click a button which is giving you not just like the normal kind of yes it turns different color when you hover it it makes some bubbly thingy you know you love that you wanted to click it you need to be careful that it's not like a delete button to make it bubbly and fancy because you don't want to do things but it goes a lot of part into this juice in us into that fun factor that if you if you if you if you did something that you have a concredulation with maybe some sounds maybe you you your LinkedIn users right maybe in last time you you observed that or here heard that there is a tone now yeah yeah a good one and the one which is like none and kind of bad one see that is as well choosing us a lot of times we miss some of the feedbacks and music or audio visual feedback is very important as well and that is where a lot of this juicy part comes or this UX part comes into place as well how the user is guided through something and so on and so forth that is important so next time I'm building a report whenever my KPI is dropping them I'm just going to put there a huge alarm no no just this alarm siren yeah everybody here is it they're like what's going on exactly awesome or like just it sounds maybe odd but use emojis if it's going down you may put some emojis as part because people completely understand immediately what you wanted to tell them and even so you can make animations on it on a report people want to understand that they want to play around them with it may you can even make it interactive that people play around with the report what happens if I put that up what happens if I put that down yeah because that is what people and love to do because they want to understand they wanted to experiment they wanted to observe and the much you're doing that the more you're doing some such things your report gets playful and your report will be understood can I ask if you were to look at a job in a specific process like for example purchasing what game would you choose to mirror this type of activities that they do the closest is it like a you mentioned god of war is it like a super Mario like what is the most accurate game in your opinion that reflects the activities of somebody in purchasing so if somebody needs to purchase as well in the so to purchase some whatever it is from another client be to be do yeah okay the closest one would be probably something like where you where you make a restaurants simulator probably kind of that way yeah because it's you need to understand how much you have in stock you need to understand what meals you can prepare and you need to hit a certain target but your clients need to be happy whatever the clients will be so something like those cooking simulators not it's it's more like a casual game to be honest where you have those simulations this is probably very close and then annual like those strategy games or hf empire those games are very close to okay I have that budget okay I need to build that it's a bit more free you don't have to those targets you need to reach but yes that is more or less where you learn quite a lot of of those areas or if you love a little bit more tactical stock roughly as well could be something you could look into but it's a little bit more strategic but you need to be very careful and hearthstone probably as well that is very far away so to say it's not like one and one but if you understand about the strategic part of I have those cards I need to play those cards or poker good example and you probably you can understand okay this and this would be what I'll learn out of that but you need to be able to convey that into your language and if you're not able to convert something into your purchase language so to say in your job language then it's just a game and it won't help you because you don't understanding the the learning behind it I take issue with the fact that you or I'm very surprised by the fact that you meant a set that purchasing is like a kitchen simulator because then I feel very bad for the people in purchasing because I've played a kitchen simulator once and I've never been as stressed as I have played that game it was so stressful I was sweating afterwards it is kind of the same everything you're doing have a tremendous impact or can have a tremendous impact on the on the financial side on the taxes or whatever or even on the side of the that you need to take everything into yeah understand if there if you need the lawyer to understand everything what is written in in between that or if something is happening and maybe you have a budget you need to mitigate you need maybe there's as well where you need to um yeah I just thinking of such a game maybe as well the threat become human can be in terms of how to mitigate and discuss with people what would be the best option to go for probably that as well would be interesting to look into like such discussion kind of games would be interesting but yeah and a kitchen simulator could be close but I'm not quite sure to be honest if maybe I'm wrong I'm not always right I gotta say I love the idea of thinking about um these different teams that we're working in uh we're working with on regular basis and looking at them as a computer game and then thinking what makes this computer game so sticky so fun so so interactive to to play and how can I apply it to them that's super super interesting you can you can tell what you probably or who you probably are in character uh if you tell me your games and why you play them uh so that is something where usually I'm quite of right-ish where you are very strong in what you're doing and why that's interesting I'll rather keep it for myself because I suck at all of them no no it's important that you suck at them it's more important why you play them and what kind of game it is it doesn't matter that you suck at them but yeah I can totally understand yes me unfortunately we are running out of time but my last question would be uh what gets you excited about your job humans to be honest uh or as well the brain so to say what me what excites me really is that there is something in game or in play which seems to be older than us as human beings and our brains in general are older than than so the structure of it is older than than us and that makes me so much excited that I'm able to take a look behind the scenes and that I can help companies and with that people um to see a little bit of a different flavor in their job and in their lives and that excites me quite a lot well all I can do now is also wish you all the best in your career uh looks like a very exciting and interesting one and uh well now my last question would be where can people eventually find you and uh you know find out more about you so you can always follow me and link then um just me yes me in caratas if you want uh I have a website which is jasmine minus caratas dot ch so you can google me just jasmine and gamification probably and you will find me so that's probably the fastest way to do so um yeah I think then you will find all my channels on instagram twitch linked in wherever I am and uh we we will definitely add all those links into uh the show notes of the episode and also be sure to check all the videos that jasmine have on youtube including a few dedexes you know uh nice uh talks so uh very very cool stuff um yes mean thank you very very much for joining our show uh we really appreciate your time thank you yaku thank you patrick of course and for you dear listeners well as usual thank you for following us and listening to our amazing show about process mining what actually makes me super happy is that we can also divert and a little other topics than process mining only so not only really business as usual but going into these other areas such as gamification brain motivation and everything so very happy about that and uh you know the usually if you have any question just write us an email on mining your business podcast at gmail.com we are very active on LinkedIn so if you have anything that you would like to share with us or you would like us to talk about in our episodes just reach out to us thank you very much and um talk to you in another episode of mining your business podcast bye bye [BLANK_AUDIO]