From Pirro to Zero

Today's presenting sponsor is Simply Safe Home Security. In politics, as in so many fields, being proactive matters. If you're waiting for your opponent to strike first, you're already on your back foot. The same rule applies in home security. Unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break-in is already underway, Simply Safe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. Smart AI-powered outdoor cameras detect suspicious activity at the perimeter of your home, and alert live US-based agents to step in. Simply Safe's agents assess the threat, intervene through the outdoor camera to ward off trespassers, then call for 911 dispatch. Our CEO, Lucinda recently had a Simply Safe installed in her home, and she said it was quick and easy to install. It was up and running in no time. It's been working great for her, and it gives her the peace of mind to know who's dropping by. Or if you want, you can easily chat with visitors through the camera even when you're away. Simply Safe has been protecting your world for 20 years. Right now, you can get 50% off a new Simply Safe system. Go to SimplySafe.com/Cricket. That's SimplySafe.com/Cricket for 50% off. There's no safe, like Simply Safe. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science. Neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing, or politics. Country music, hockey, sex, of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully, make you see the world a new. Radio Lab adventures on the edge of what we think we know. Wherever you get your podcast. US voters abroad. Have you got your ballot yet? All states are now sending ballots to overseas voters. So if you want to vote this year, you should request your ballot right away. Go to votefromabroad.org and click RequestMyBallet. Ask to receive it by email. Questions? Ask our support team directly. Don't miss this chance to shape the future. Don't delay. Votefromabroad.org. Welcome to Potsy of America. I'm John Favreau. I'm John Lovett. And Tommy Vitore. On today's show, Todd Blanch is getting confirmed as Attorney General after killing Trump's January 6th slush fund. But is it really dead? We'll talk about that. And whether Blanch's US Attorney for DC, Janine Piro is about to be fired for telling the truth about the reflecting pool. The Trump still says was vandalized. We'll also cover the disturbing case of House Republican Max Miller, what it means for our efforts to flip the house, and what you can do to help flip the house as well. We got more news about Cursed DNC Chair Ken Martin, a Michigan primary that's finally ending. And later, I talked to Wisconsin gubernatorial candidate Francesca Hung about her momentum in a huge race. That's just seven days from the finish line. But first, it was another eventful weekend where the commander-in-chief threatened Iran with what he was calling the biggest attack since World War II, only to once again pull back at the very last moment because of alleged talks about an alleged deal that no one can confirm. Iran says it's bullshit. US officials told CBS no new talks have been planned. And by Monday afternoon, Trump put to rest any lingering confusion with his usual clarity. And this is at least a fifth time that you've turned off air strikes against your own since April to negotiate. What is your message to American people who are wondering what has changed this time? Why should they do that? Well, you don't know. I don't know. I think we're going to maybe get something. But I want to give him every last chance before decapitation. This is a last chance for them to sign a good document. I'm very proud of the fact that I will give people a good chance. This is a big move. Iran knew it. They knew I was coming. It was going to come last night. And it would have gone on for a long time. And there'd be essentially very little left. There'd be nothing left. OK. It seems like he's about to wrap this thing up, huh? A little time before the decapitation. Queen of farts over here. I see. Reentwinet. Why do you think Trump called off planned strikes for the 500th time? I think it was a combination of things. I think the Saudis got to him and other golf autocrats who pay him bribes. They do not want to see every planes. Yeah, even planes. God knows what else. They don't want to see a resumption of full-scale combat because for them, that means the oil and gas industry gets all screwed up. They can't get their exports out. And also the Iranians fire a bunch of missiles and drones at them. So that sucks if you're sitting in Saudi Arabia or Bahrain or Kuwait or whatever. I think MBS, mom of Insalman in particular, was persuasive. There's also this ongoing issue about they don't have enough interceptor missiles to defend from all these Iranian ballistic missile responses. I think Trump also knows it's going to jack up oil and gas prices, pretty close to the midterms and probably not materially impact situation. You're not going to win the war in a weekend. I mean, I think you and I talked about this on Friday. Some of the reports were like, Trump's got the biggest air strike barrage since World War II planned that'll be done by Monday. You're not going to win the war. So he's bluffing and he's trying to see if he can use it as leverage. The thing is driving me crazy, just for a quick aside. You guys remember the whole Syria red line thing? That was a fight about Syria policy kind of, but the thing everyone in Washington said is presidents don't bluff, right? You can't threaten to do something and then not implement it. And like Trump has not done that five times in all the Republicans who blamed the Syria red line for Putin invading Crimea or everything China does are just silent on this now. Yeah, and at this point, I'm sure that the Iranians here, like the biggest, most devastating attack since World War II when they probably start laughing. They're like, we just beat you in a previous war. Well, it's also like, well, how many times, how many cycles of this can we go through? We're going to obliterate your society. We're going to send you back to the stonage. Sure you are. And then it's called off by the time the market's open on Monday over and over again. The thing that's scary to me is, at some point, he's going to have to follow through. There's only so many times we can do this cycle, especially because the Iranians are not being cooperative with what Trump wants, which is to pretend there's negotiations. Because you go along with what I'm saying. Why are you being so difficult in not confirming my ridiculous vacillations in the story I'm telling about how my threat of terrible violence brought you back to the table? Remember a couple of weeks ago when you said they had killed off all the hardliners and now the remaining people were more practical. Did you guys see the CNN story with the headline? US military asks troops for creative and unconventional ideas to punish Iran? - Yeah, war crimes brainstorm. - It's not, everybody, we're doing a mood board. Everybody, everybody into the conference room, we're doing a mood board. - Guys, guys, all bad ideas in a brainstorm. - I mean, that tells you something that maybe they're sort of out of, clearly they're out of ideas. They're out of the bluffing is getting trickier to pull off. - It really does feel like a writer's room, not a war plan. - Fucking goobers. - So Trump did get much closer to having a full-fledged attorney general after Todd Blanche finally did what the president has refused to do. He posted a letter showing that he'd formally rescinded the order creating the January 6th insurrection as slush fund and in an accompanying press release, DOJ said the other big part of the IRS settlement, immunity from investigations into potential tax fraud for Trump and his family would apply, quote, only retroactively. Tom Tillerson, John Cornin, the two holdouts, promptly said that was good enough for them and they will now vote in favor of his nomination. Trump could ask about the conditions in the oval on Monday and he was non-committal. - Mr. President, do you sign off on Todd Blanche? - I didn't look at it. All I know is that Todd Blanche is great. He's gonna do a great job. Everybody knows it. And I understand there's been a sign off. But I don't know what they agreed. I think Todd Blanche agreed to reconfirm things that he's already said. And what he said was, okay. So Blanche has gotten confirmed. How ironclad do you think Blanche's rescinded order is, love it? - So Cornin or Tillerson, it doesn't matter which one in some interview said, look, could a future attorney general rescind the paper, could Trump rescind it? Sure, but then it'll be up to the American people. And what's so, I knew this was coming, of course, is what they wanted to do. They've signaled that they said we want to get to yes, which Trump could see. And so they were gonna figure out some way to get to yes. They had a chance to vote on an amendment to ban this by law and they chose not to. Other Republicans did it. They didn't. They didn't. And now, after Trump has made fools of them, after Trump has injected himself into their primaries and caught him in their seat. As they're leaving office, the best that they can musters, this pathetic display of like a piece of paper that can be rescinded, like experts and lawyers, don't even necessarily believe this paper applies to the settlement because the settlement required signatures of all parties, so it may not even apply today. And they had an opportunity to vote for something that would have actually banned it in the law. They chose not to because that would have been a victory for their Democrats. And so I don't know what they're telling themselves when they sort of close their eyes at night, but it is the most, Trump had their fucking number. They were as weak and creven and pathetic as he thought and he has been proven right and these pieces of paper aren't worth a fucking thing. Yeah, Trump said the slush phone was a gift, Todd, and I'm. taking it with me. I don't believe for a second, this is dead. You can move him off of bad policies, but you can't really move him off of something that he wants personally, and this is money in his pocket if he can avoid IRS audits forever or have a slush fund that you can divvy out for political power. Trump is not remotely embarrassed about this fund. It is quite clear that he thinks this is something that he is owed by us, the taxpayers. So I've zero stock in this terrible idea of being dead. This is Michael Myers, this will keep coming back and coming back and coming back. And I think he will fight for it until he gets what he wants. The only thing that might kill it is Democrats winning the House. - Yeah, our friend, Sky Perryman, lawyer who's been suing the Trump administration for democracy forward. She made the point to the New York Times that if the Justice Department truly intended to end the fund, they would submit a sworn declaration that the court has requested on this, which would be more binding than a fingers crossed promise from Todd Blanche that does not include the signatures you said, love it, of Donald Trump. So I would imagine this goes the way of everything else, like the ICE detentions that have now ramped back up as soon as the new cycle moves on and Todd Blanche's attorney general, they will quietly start paying out individual January 6th convicts and other people that they like. And, you know, we'll get some report months from now that, oh, someone discovered that people are getting payouts from the Trump administration and someone will ask him about it and he'll be like, well, I said it was unfair, but I don't know anything about that. And then that'll be that. - This is also the whole thing is so ridiculous because what are we negotiating over here? We'll get to it, but we have the president threatening to fire prosecutors simply for telling the truth about the prosecution of someone who didn't deserve to be prosecuted. We have Todd Blanche in front of Congress saying that DOJ is not independent. We have so many reports about the politicization of the Justice Department of Pam Bondy and now Todd Blanche. And their final act is to stop what is, like the fund is so, it is so far beyond anything anyone could have ever seen from a president. A slush fund for fucking insurrectionists and this is what they're gonna pat themselves on the back about. This is, as they have no political fights left to fight, as Trump has made enemies of them, compared to the reverse of Trump being like, I'm gonna, you know, like as a senator being like, even though humiliated me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the right thing for your cabinet nominee. It's ridiculous, it's ridiculous. - Good to run on in the midterms. Anyone who, look, a lot of these people are gonna vote to confirm Todd Blanche. And if, I'm interested to see what Susan Collins and Dan Sullivan and John Houston do because if you voted to confirm Blanche, you've basically voted for the slush fund. So any ad about that is completely fair. - No, no doubt. So Blanche is in, but Trump's US attorney for the District of Columbia may be out on Friday afternoon. Former and now maybe future Fox News host, Janine Piro, announced in a court filing that the Justice Department would be dropping its case against former Olympian David Hurn, who had been facing a felony charge for allegedly vandalizing the reflecting pool. But Piro and the DOJ now admit, according to the court filing, that the damages to the pool were the result of a quote, hasty and botched installation, not vandalism. No shit. The Department of Justice went on to accuse the department of the interior of knowing it wasn't vandalism and misleading prosecutors about what really happened. Take that, Doug Bergam. Trump's surprise surprise is furious. - Have you spoken to Janine Piro about further decisions throughout? - No, Janine Piro made a mistake. It was vandalism. We have photographs or tapes like moving cameras, right? We have them, people are on the side. - For sure. - Cutting it was a hot crime. - Now I'm not saying I was 100% thrilled with the contractor, but the contractor was rushing. We wanted to get it open for July 4th. And we got it done. It looked beautiful. And then they cut it. The judge was extremely unfriendly to Janine. And frankly, I think she choked. And I was disappointed with Janine Piro. Really disappointed with Janine Piro. She folded like an umbrella. - That was the closest he's come to sounding like he did in the celebrity apprentice. Like it's like the board room and he's about to fire someone. - Yeah, it's like meatloaf. You didn't make the taco restaurant operate at a profit. Yet over at the, the bubblers were too loud on the memorial. Janine Piro, you're fired. - That's the best part. Saying they had to turn off the reflecting pool bubblers because it would have interfered with the UFC fight. Like a gurgling fountain. - Yeah, it would have distracted. 5,000 people cheering, someone's face getting bashed in. The roar of the pool pump. - It's crazy. - Apparently Piro and Berger, and we're seeing after that walking into the oval office and then Berger and we're seeing walking up. But Piro is still in there. Now, by the time we're listening to this. - You're listening to this. - Probably by the time we finished recording this, we could already, she could already be done. But so, so long, so long Janine, it sounds like. What a fucking mess this was. - What a fucking mess. - Yeah, it did. Also like before people go saying like I clearly like, it seems like this was written an anger, like clearly annoyed at whatever they were getting from the interior department. But regardless, the idea that the department of justice, even after doing the right thing here, in between fucking getting an indictment for this guy and letting him go, your entire story was reversed. What kind of evidence were you basing this on when you brought the charges in the first place? Why did you have to learn so much after you decided to try to ruin a man's life that you would eventually decide to drop it? I guess because you thought it wouldn't hold up in court. - Yeah, I mean, the only reason they had to come clean is because if you knowingly submit false evidence in court, you can be charged with perjury and you can go to jail and you can, you know, be punished by state bar associations and deal with all their problems. So, Doug Burgham is just like, "Oh, I'll just lie in the court of public opinion, like no skin off my ass, but judge Janine." It doesn't matter how many shardonnays you have, you cannot lie before the judge. I mean, there's always a spot on the five or her. - Oh yeah, they'll make it the six. - I know this one seems small and silly and it's kind of fun because it's, you know, Trump's renovations and it's the reflecting pool and it's so obviously a lie. But like, this guy was charged with a felony. - It's crazy. - Had to get lawyer was like facing jail time and it was all because of an obvious lie that everyone knew was an obvious lie and they all, I mean, there's all, you know, you can look for them anywhere, there's just clips all over the place of Carolyn Levitt, Donald Trump, Janine Piero being like, it's evidence. We have evidence that we're gonna present in court and we know it and it was the box cutter about, and just to lie the entire time. But one of the more brazen lies they've ever told. - Yeah, there's one, there's some interview with where someone's questioning Janine Piero about this and you realize like, she doesn't totally know the facts. Is like, well, did he have a knife? He's like, no, no, no, he did it with his hands. It's like, I'm sorry, what are you saying? This 67-year-old canoeist is like, well, like swimming through the pool, ripping up the screen, what are we talking about? - There's a Wolverine, what are we talking about? - Yeah, it's crazy, like it's crazy. - Yeah, no, this is a good, like, yeah, I'm with you. This story like didn't seize me when I came out in the same way the East Wing kind of story didn't like, really, it wasn't the thing I care the most about. But what I think I've come to realize over time is how much symbols matter and how much it's made this corruption stories breakthrough. We can talk about, you know, day trading from the Oval Office and the amount of money Trump is making, but like stats and figures are not gonna break through as much as a simple narrative like this, where you have Trump's, you know, selfishness and ego leading a innocent man to be fucking prosecuted, or, you know, tearing down the East Wing or whatever, these symbols really matter. They make these stories breakthrough. I think it's like impacted him politically. - Also, it's coming in a day when the attorney general nomination is about to be carried, like, the two Republicans just decided to give their votes, to, like, give their impremature to how this Department of Justice is being run at any other era at any other time. This would be, like, you should, of course, we need to bring Todd Blanche before the Senate again to find out what does he think about this? Was he aware of this prosecution? Does he think, Jean-Pierre was in the wrong? Does he think, Todd Blanche? - Now he's got an out because if Trump fires there he'll be like, absolutely good. The president did the right thing. This was bad. This is not how we're gonna run the justice department. - Well, let's see what happens. - No, he, of course he wouldn't have said that if Trump didn't fire. (laughs) - And also, what were you aware of these charges? Do you believe Doug Berger misled the Department of Justice? Like, there needs to be some resolution of these facts because now we have Trump and the Interior Department head saying that it was still a crime and that this person should still be prosecuted. - It's not over either because David Hirns' lawyer has basically said that I think he told CNN that all options are on the table and among those options according to CNN. (laughs) - He's cool. - Yeah, he's going with the Iran attack, except on the bottom. They can, options are referring the prosecutors involved to a bar disciplinary authority, filing lawsuits, seeking more of the grand jury recording, documenting the prosecutor's presentation of the indictment 'cause they did get an indictment, asking the judge to dismiss the case so it can't be brought again because Pira's office only dismissed it without prejudice, meaning that prosecutors wouldn't be barred from attempting to revive the case later. So they need to go further and make sure that they-- - Tough, it can never bring it again. - Yeah, tough case to bring again when you have the prosecutor saying that they were misled by the Department of, like, the tough-- - But not unprecedented for this case, sure. - Sure, sure. - Yeah, that's cool. - I would say it's like, my question would be, is like, are we going to, are we suing these black, where let's, we get this guy some cash? - Beautiful. - Get some cash for this guy. - Get some more documents released. (upbeat music) - PodSaid America is brought to you by article. Article makes it effortless to build a home that lasts without the boutique markup. They're curated collections of mid-century coastal and scandy furniture are designed to mix and match perfectly. So you can create a cohesive designer look that will stand the test of time. We got a bunch of great article stuff at this office. It looks good. It was, it all showed up really fast. It was more affordable. We got some really comfy couches and chairs and desks and just like a ton of great stuff that all work together even though we bought them in many different times. Article offers fast, affordable shipping across the US and Canada with options for professional assembly if you prefer a hands-off experience. Have a question or need help with your design choices. Article's customer care team is available seven days a week, offering knowledgeable support and even free interior design services to help you get your home just right. With articles 30-day satisfaction guarantee you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. This peace of mind ensures you can best in your home without hesitation. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more to claim. Visit article.com/cricut and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com/cricut for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Paz de America is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Company. The difference between low and high-quality seafood is enormous, but it's also one of those things that's tough to accurately assess for yourself in the grocery store. Wild Alaskan Company offers the best way to get wild-cut high-quality seafood delivered to your door on your schedule. Each wild Alaskan box comes with individually portioned fillets, vacuum sealed, easy to prep and great for any meal no matter how quick or elevated. Allfish is quick frozen fresh from the Alaskan waters which helps lock in its freshness, texture, flavor and key nutrients like omega-3s. It's fish you can trust with no GMOs, antibiotics or other additives. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and Alaskan fishermen whose history is tied to the region and practice. I had some wild back, it's great. I love Wild Alaskan, I really like their tuna. You know, it's really, it tastes great. Wild Alaskan Company is so confident that their fish is the best that they offer 100% satisfaction and money back guarantee so you can try your first box risk-free. Go to wildalaskan.com/cricut for $35 off your first order of premium wild-cut seafood. That's wildalaskan.com/cricut for $35 off your first order. Speaking of Trump cabinet Cooke's RFK junior, he made an appearance on CNN State of the Union with Dan Abash on Sunday morning for a thoughtful conversation about the nation's health. Let's take a listen. I will literally eat anything because I don't have, I don't have, but even with geography, the flag, so let me put it like that. That's what Lindsey Graham said in heaven. Wow, wow. I just wanted to play that for you guys. That was not the Dan Abash conversation, but that is what the Health and Human Service Secretary's up to. It's such a weird way to describe why you'll eat anything. It's not like I have adventurous palettes. I enjoy all kinds of food. It's like nothing makes me puke. I don't have a gag reflex. Okay, good to know. Write it down. All right, let's check out the actual conversation with Dan Abash. The cases in the US protected children. I think that what I have to talk to scientists and doctors about is can you look, can you show me I'm a study? Yes, you are saying nonsense. You are saying something that you cannot show me a single study. I am not saying nonsense. I am talking with somebody told you. Excuse me. - Let me study. - What study? No, what studies are you talking about? You're talking about studies that actually don't exist. And I really want to move on. But you were saying yes, I do. You were part of the problem. No, I wasn't. Yeah, there was absolute press malpractice. Okay, are you going to you want to sit here and attack me? Or do you want to have conversation? Are you sitting here and attacking me? I'm not attacking you. I'm asking questions about how to prevent the next question and I'll tell you. That's what I'm trying to do. But Dana, you probably don't understand this because you're not assigned to this. But you're not either. So what did you guys think of that uncomfortable and somewhat infuriating interview? So it is so hard. 20 minutes that went by. 20 minutes and is a brutal 20 minutes and it is very difficult to in real time fact check someone who is all over the fucking place, mischaracterizing studies, asking you to prove the negative in the next sentence. Grabbing for all kinds of things, the men and nights aren't vaccinated. Actually, Lyme disease is from gain of function research and you're all over the place trying. And this is where like, you know what? I think Dana trying to call upon the history of recalling expertise and things you've revived. And this is where I think what makes it so difficult is that RFK, his whole thesis, right, is that like this is all pretty nefarious, right? He says like, oh, the ICUs were actually empty. They were lying about basically how full all the ICUs were because they were trying to scare people and control people. You're being misled by all the experts. And I'm the one here to tell the truth and you're just gonna recite the experts that I have the real facts about. But he doesn't. Like RSV is not from gain of function research. That's a lie. Lyme disease is not from gain of function. They found the Lyme disease bacteria in a 5,000 year old prehistoric fossil. COVID, multiple studies have shown that COVID protects. They've shown me one study that COVID vaccines protect kids. Tons of studies show that COVID protects kids. There was one that found that the only kids in the ICU from inflammation due to COVID were unvaccinated kids. Just over and over and over again. These like, you can't show me this and you can't show me that. Well, maybe not while sitting there kind of being peppered with bullshit from RFK Junior with sort of misogynistic you're not a scientist shit. But of course, he's just like, you know, dissembling and misleading and lying about what the evidence is. Yeah, I mean, I think she did a good job at some points less good at the other. Like the very top, he says the US had the highest death rate from COVID that's just not even close to true. Peru had the highest death rate per capita. We had the highest death toll, but that's largely a function of having the third highest population in the world. Yeah, we're down to like 18 for some of the teens for- Yeah, and also the giddens is a weird place. We're like a bunch of countries with, you know, less stable governments don't have the resources to collect all the data. So we don't really know all this stuff. She asked, she asked a question about, she asked him about gain of function research and then he came back with this lie saying RSV and Lyme disease were created by gain of function research, which is just unequivocally not true. And I think you do have to be prepared on that one to be like, that is absolutely not true. Now the question phrasing itself was kind of strange or sort of like, indefensive gain of function research. I'm not sure that was the most valuable question. And then she kept pushing to move on, which is complicated because then you kind of sound slippery. I think it got better and more constructive in the measles section because she really just wanted to pin him down and get him to say, yes, like get your kid, the MMR vaccine. There's a horrible measles outbreak. It's deadly for kids. But then RFK says, I never question the efficacy of the MMR vaccine, sir. Yes, he did. He said it wanes. He called it leaky. That's a lie. It's like 90% effective. It has lifelong protection. 90% of measles cases are unvaccinated people or of an unknown status. So I had to research all of that to like, kind of fact check this guy. It is why he's so already so slippery and condescending. But like, when you interview that guy, that's the job. Yeah, I think this is how conspiracy theorists, especially with science and medicine. This is how they work, right? Which is scientific judgment is not like every single scientist and every single study for all of time agrees on the same thing. It's the preponderance of evidence points one direction. Maybe there's one study that says something else and then the conspiracy theorist latches on to the one study and is like, well, why? Maybe that's the study. Maybe that's the study that actually tells the truth and all the other experts are wrong. And every time she could study, he could study, study back. The best way to get him is to talk about what you just said, which is if he claims that he said something, you can be like, no, this is actually what you said. You know, and you can put it up. Yeah, put it up. But, or do you say, study these nuts? Right, sure. It's also a safe and effective way to reply. When you're going, when you're going study by study and science by science, this is like, you know, it's a microcosm of how we all fucked up the pandemic so badly, right? Is that it's just a bunch of, now everyone can go find their own research and can go find some study or some scientist or some asshole on Twitter who debunks scientific evidence that is overwhelming. Like, that is, that's the whole story of how we, how we went through the pandemic. Yeah, it's not like, now the guy's fucking health and human services. Right. He also, he's just more broadly, right? Deeply mischaracterizes the body of research on autism from vaccines to Tylenol. In part, because if you're doing tons and tons of studies, one study may show a correlation. And then some more research is done. And they say, you know what? Actually, we took that correlation research and we ran another analysis across a much bigger sample to see what would happen between siblings, right? And actually, it turns out that that correlation doesn't produce causation when you look at it another way. And this is a much deeper bit of research. And so, you know, well, nothing is ever known for certain. We believe this is just sort of something that you can say there is no evidence for. But that's not acceptable. But this is why I come back to the ICU thing. Like, why? What is, like, this is where I think you have to go, so you're saying all of these scientists are lying or misleading because what, they want kids to get sick, they want kids to get autism. All of your newsrooms are lying. New news. The rooms were saying that New York city ERs were full and they were making it up. What on earth are you? Donald Trump was president. If that were happening, he would have gotten to the bottom of it. That's his hometown. It's fucking insane. - And what's the motivation that they just, they wanted everyone to stay home? - They wanted all people. - They wanted to scare people. - Vote by mail eventually? - That to have everyone stay home. And then I guess they all probably had, you know, business connections to the pharmaceutical companies. - Big mask? - Yeah, well to try to get the vaccine. - That's where they're all pushing the vaccine. - Well this was also like, there were people running around with video cameras trying to prove that the ICUs in their town or their place were empty. And I was like, well that's not the COVID ward. And by the way, yeah, like they're worried that there's about to be huge influx of patients, et cetera, et cetera. And like, it's all this idea that like, you can't trust anybody, you can't trust the experts, you can't trust the science. Like, did these, did Fauci and Alt, do they? Like, you know, there was plenty of ways in which they were trying to be, I think, you know, too declarative, afraid of giving people nuance. 'Cause they weren't able to, they weren't sure I think they could trust the public with and part because they were so much misinformation. But these were people desperately trying to figure out what to do in the middle of an emergency. And he sits there, like kind of leaning back, being like, it was all a lie, they were all lying and is so fucking disgusting. - But this is the whole, I mean, this all came from the Fauci hearings last week, which we didn't really talk about on the pod, but basically they decided that because they found that in Fauci's, you know, private journal, he was like, it's so cool to be me and meet celebrities. I'm like the most famous person in the world. They're like, that shows that he killed everyone. - That's like, but dialed Barbara Streisand again, what a voice. (laughing) - And they're like, exactly like, sir, that proves it. That proves that you did everything wrong. - Like, yeah, God forbid we have an egomaniac in charge during a pandemic. Is it great for medical research in the scientific community to have the clips out there of Fauci pleading the fifth, however many times in front of this hearing. I don't like COVID. - Terrible, obviously it is terrible. Do I understand why you did it from a legal perspective? Kind of, I write half an article on this 'cause I'm not obsessed with that. I do think I am. There is like, I'm just kidding. It's just sort of an asymmetric story where Republicans are obsessed with this and Democrats are like, I want to think of anything, but the pandemic goes the worst couple years of my life. None of us want to go back. - America agrees, you know. - Yeah, but yeah, it is just, I don't know. Bobby Kennedy, man, that's miserable. - All right, it's primary day in Michigan, and we got some midterm news to talk about, including the big announcement of our own. Today, votes of America is launching what we're calling the Crooked Doesn't. 12 of the most vulnerable House Republicans who we can put out of a job this November, but we need your help, dear listener. If you go to votesofamerica.com right now and sign up, you will get practical concrete steps that you can take to help flip these seats and lots of others up and down the ballot. You're gonna get information on where to donate, where to volunteer, how to make sure your friends and family are getting the best information about the race is lots more information. It literally takes two seconds to sign up at votesofamerica.com. And if you're already signed up, grab a couple of friends, have them sign up too. We're trying to get as many people as possible. We did this back with the Crooked Seven back in 2018. - Worked pretty bad, well done. - Yeah, I think we got almost all of them. And yeah, so we're trying to raise money for the Democratic candidates. We're gonna take these folks on and also just get some volunteers going. As an added incentive, we do have some news about one of the Crooked dozen. Max Miller, the Republican representing Ohio 7th District, South of Cleveland, you may already be following this incredibly disturbing story. In 2024, Miller and his wife, Emily Moreno, who's the daughter of Republican Senator Bernie Moreno, got divorced and the custody battle for their two-year-old daughter ended up in court. As part of that court fight, Emily Moreno said that Miller repeatedly abused her, scalding her with hot water, holding a gun to her head, and breaking their daughter's collarbone. The allegations, which Miller denies, started getting more attention over the last week or so when Senator Moreno refused to comment or call for his ex-Son-in-law to resign and to quit his campaign. Miller then delivered a 20-minute live stream statement on Sunday morning, where he did not drop out, but accused Emily Moreno of being a stalker and saying things like this. - If I had assaulted her, would she had offered to cook me dinner six days later? Would she have invited me to spend an afternoon at the playground with her and our daughter? Would she have written that we were in a friendlier place? No, she wouldn't have, ladies and gentlemen. The boiling water story the media has run with. That story is about an incident in June of 2024 while we were still married. And here's the truth, and this is the absolute truth. It was horse play in our kitchen. These accusations were true. I would be in jail. - That is just, he also posted and then deleted a drop box folder of audio he'd recorded of her, some of which contradicted his own claims. So then he took it down. After that disgusting display, Bernie Moreno, the Senator, his former father-in-law, finally spoke out, posted a long statement that said, among other things, that the two years since the divorce have been pure hell that he holds his breath every time Miller has custody of his granddaughter. And that quote, "If there are any basic standards of character required to hold elected office, Max Miller fails them. He should not serve in the House of Representatives." Miller then immediately called him a liar. So I assume there's been a groundswell of Republicans now calling for Miller to step aside, right? I, Trump was in the Oval Office, was asked about that and said, "Well, he's a good person, good person, terrible situation, I guess the family will have to decide, the family will have to decide." What do you guys make of the whole situation? I mean, Max Miller should be in prison, not Congress, period. He is lying abuse of scum. This is not the only instance of him being accused of abuse. He was accused of beating his ex-girlfriend Stephanie Grisham, who worked in the Trump White House. She said he threw her up against a wall and slapped her. Political reported that Miller pushed a female high school classmate down a flight of stairs because she refused his sexual advances. There's another alleged incident of Miller abusing a woman in college. We don't really know the details there, but it's been mentioned in court transcripts. He had a bunch of violent fights and incidents in high school or in his early 20s. So this guy is clearly has a pattern of alleged abuse. And I think that should be enough for him to be thrown out of Congress, but Republicans have not, most Republicans either just duck the question or want to preserve their majority. Now, there's a lot of focus has been put on Bernie Moreno and his response. He's a Ohio Senator, his daughter is the woman in making these allegations. I think my gut reaction when I read his, when he wouldn't respond was like that he had failed his basic job as a father and was a coward and to really condemn him more than others. The more I thought about it, the more I was like, I don't know. You don't know what's happening inside a family. You don't know what his conversations with his daughter are like, you don't know the fear that he could have about his granddaughter who had joined custody. So I don't know. I feel like I needed to buy a back of wife, Emily's mother. Yeah, it's complicated. And so she was really upset. And so I think he didn't, I mean, whatever he got it done. But like Jim Jordan was on Congressman Jim Jordan was on TV and was asked about this. I think it was CNN or maybe his MS now. And just absolutely will not draw moral line in the sand for this man, who's clearly a fucking scumbag. Well, Jim Jordan is sort of a history of this. Refusing to do that. Yeah, like the statement from Bernie Morino makes clear that he felt like he was trying to avoid speaking out about it on his daughter's behalf. Trump is refusing to condemn him, which is leading to no one else being willing to call on him to resign. If he doesn't step back by Wednesday, I believe, he'll be on the ballots. So he's hanging on. Now, if Max Miller seems to have this history, he's obviously, there are these allegations in this marriage, allegations in previous relationships, allegations of other violence in the past, whatever it has been said publicly, that means that there are, that like, Stephanie Grisham was close to Donald Trump. That means that there are people, it though, like the senators are aware of this. Other members of the house are aware of this. The White House is aware of this. That this guy is fucking the violent piece of shit, and they have all just been what? Silent about it, ignoring about it, keeping their heads down. Trump called up a good person. He's basically a character witness. Should say to you there. What broke this whole thing open was Abby Vassoulos of Mother Jones, poor to there, like she broke the story in July 18th, where she just went through all the court documents that were out there and all the filings. And it is, I mean, it's a tough read, but like a child protection specialist reviewed the incident, characterized the bruising near the fracture as resembling a handprint. Now Miller's story is that the daughter, it was a seat belt that like the car stopped short or whatever, the Emily Marino doesn't believe this, of course, and then the child protection specialist said it's a handprint. And apparently the daughter said, Daddy's house is scary to her mother. And also he contradicted himself in the court filings 'cause first he said he didn't pour hot water on her neck, and then he said in the neck sentence, well, the water incident, I never thought that that hurt you. - There's no horseplay with boiling water. - No, which is basically admitting that he actually did it. So he's a liar, he's had a violent past, he obviously should not be believed. And it is crazy that Republicans are not immediately calling for this guy to drop out of Congress, drop out of the race, let alone Congress. Yeah. - It's disgusting. - I mean, like doing that to a two year old makes you want to drive over to his house with a baseball bat and solve it that way. - Right, I mean, that's the point. The whole story is absolutely seconding. This is an evil person. I hope they indict him and lock him up. - And I hope every single Republican is forced to have to answer the questions about this. And like, and just the stammer's into the fucking camera because none of them can cross Trump because Trump didn't tell him to drop out. - It's not just him. I mean, there's a guy named Corey Mills who's another Republican from Florida who is accused of some sort of physical abuse of a woman. He was also accused of like, sex torsion and threatening to release nude images of her. And Republicans, again, they just pretend this is not happening. I mean, he's under investigation by the House Ethics Committee for like, some sorts of violations. But no one's calling for his expulsion. - And it's like, with Miller too, he's like, well, I'm not gonna drop out for people who want to try this in the court of public opinion. It's like, no, no, it's not being tried in the court of public opinion. We have actual court court documents. That's where it is. Like, we have-- - Court of court, we have testimony. This is not just hearsay that people are talking about. There's actual documents about this. Fucking asshole. (upbeat music) - Potate America is brought to you by AG1. Some remains enjoying yourself and taking it easy. Maybe some of your wellness goals took a backseat in the process, but that's okay. Now that you're getting back on track, make AG1 the non-negotiable part of your routine. One scoop eight ounces of cold water every morning for the chaos starts. AG1 helps to maintain energy and fortify immune health. It's clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps. AG1 is a daily health drink with a multivitamin, pre and probiotic superfoods and antioxidants. Even though summer is your license to chill, AG1 helps people think consistent. High quality nutritional support every single day, no matter where you start your morning. The next gen formula delivers 75 plus ingredients clinically shown to improve key nutrient levels within three months. Now I use AG1 every day, use it today. In fact, I often make a smoothie in the morning and that's my breakfast, but even when I don't, you just mix it in water, still tastes good. And I don't know, I highly recommend it. I like it. It's a great way to get a bunch of greens in your body early without, you know, having to go to the supermarket every other day to buy spinach or whatever. Visit drinkag1.com/cricut and get a free AG1 flavor sampler and a free bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 and you're welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's drinkag1.com/cricut. Hi, I'm Dave America, it's brought to you by SleepMe. When was the last time you went to bed before midnight without scrolling? Doom scrolling, the latest news cycle keeps your brain buzzing and worse, it raises your core body temperature. Just one more thing that's bad about it. A body that's too warm can't fall into a deep restorative sleep. You're not just mentally exhausted, your body never actually recovered from the day. The fix is simple, lower your bed temperature. Enter chili pad 2.0, the water-based mattress topper that actively controls your bed temperature from 55 to 115 degrees all night long. No new mattress, no renovation. It fits over what you already have. Chili pad 2.0 actively cools or warms your bed using water and water is key here. Chili pad uses actively chilled water to cool the bed, actually pulling heat away from your body. It's like the difference between standing in front of a fan and jumping into a cold pool. Love chili pad. It really works and it's so nice to have a bed that is like cool and doesn't heat up in the middle of the night, especially if you're fighting with your partner over the temperature in the room and they wanted a little warmer. You have the chili pad on and you can make your side of the bed pretty cool. It's fantastic. Visit sleep.me/cricot to get up to $255 off your chili pad 2.0 with code crooked. That's s-l-e-e-p.me/cricot. Free shipping, free returns, and a 30-night trial, so you can test it out, dream big, and wake up better. The headlines will still be there in the morning. You might as well wake up ready for them. (upbeat music) All right, so as you're listening to this, it's election day in Michigan where Abdul El Sayed and Haley Stevens are fighting it out for the Senate nomination. Any thoughts from you guys on Haley and Abdul's closing messages or anything else from the last few days of campaigning? - You know, we're got a little heated. - You did get a little heated. - Chris. - This one number that jumped out of me, which is just sort of as a preview of coming attractions because we don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. But that in, I think it's the Emerson poll, that under 50 Abdul is leading Haley Stevens 67 to 25. Over 60 Stevens is leading 53 to 39. And like that is remarkable. That is a crazy cap. And it just like, whatever happens in this race, whether or not Haley Stevens and, you know, whatever, 30 to 60 million, whatever number from APAC in ads plus concerns that Abdul will lose to Mike. Whatever it is, if whatever, eaking out of victory that is possible tomorrow, like this tells you the direction that the party is going. And if people want an alternative to left candidates or if they think the left candidates don't represent their point of view, I think we've seen over and over again that unless there is a center left that can, or center that can offer something more exciting, persuasive, optimistic, something for people to grab onto. I think though the establishment will keep being surprised by when given the choice between our candidate or else, like people keep choosing or else. - Yeah, I think so much of the conversation about this race is focused on the meta-stakes and what it means for the party. And also the exchanging of barbs, you know, the attacks and the money. - Sure, a lot of trading. - APAC and stuff, but I was reading this New Yorker interview Abdul did over the weekend during my own little brush with the healthcare industry in this country and how fun it can be. And I was reminded why I'm so excited about his candidacy. Like he is a fundamentally optimistic, hopeful guy who brings real expertise as a doctor and a health professional to the job. - Not arcade you in your level. - No, he is like an incredibly talented speaker. He's a good human being, we're lucky enough to know him. And I'm just, it just reminded me to be excited about him and the fact that he could potentially be a US senator. And you know, there was this graph in the story that really just jumped out of me that I wanted to read about 'cause he talks about how his story and his parent story is only possible in America, this sort of like fundamentally patriotic, optimistic story. And then he couches like why he is hopeful about fixing the broken US healthcare system in his optimism about America as well. He says the thing about America is that we don't do things like other people, we do them better. I love that about our country. And that's obviously very like Obama-O-8 coded and part of why I like it. And I think there's a risk of just cutting, not cutting, pacing, but like that rhetoric from that era. It was a different time. The world is, the electorate now is in a darker place. At come inequality is worse. Younger people feel even more hopeless about the system, about the economy, about their prospects in life. You don't want to just kind of like repeat, the Obama era optimism. But I do think, because it's a good sound naive, but I do think that what Abdul is getting at is talking about problems and systemic challenges, but then giving people some hope that he actually can fix it or that we have the capacity to fix them as a nation. And I think that has been missing in a lot of the political debate that is either just about Trump or about how cooked we are because of capitalism. - Yeah, the national discourse has sort of lumped in all the left candidates together. Is like, you know, they're all socialists and they all believe the same thing and it's all, you know, the none of them will be able to win. And, you know, for some have pretty extreme positions and we've talked about them before. And, you know, I've been, even critical of some of, you know, the way Abdul has said some things too over the, in this race. But I thought that was the, I thought this was the best interview that he has given. And if you are open-minded and still unsure about Abdul, like I would absolutely read this with David Remnick in the New Yorker, I thought it was really, really great. It's gonna, look, if Abdul wins the primary, if the polls are correct, it is going to be a difficult general election. And, you know, the gold standard poll in Michigan came out over the weekend and has him down a few to mic Rogers and Haley Stevens performed better in that poll. I don't think that means he can't win by any means. But I think that what he's going to have to do to be victorious is exactly what he did, I think, in that interview. And it's talked like he did in that interview. And, because it shows a love of country, it's like a liberal patriotism. He talks about how he's a capitalist. He talks about, he's criticized Obama in the past, as we know. He was very complimentary. And he just, he seems extremely thoughtful. Like he just didn't get into this race because he wanted to, like, throw out slogans and all this kind of stuff. Like, it seems like he has fought all this stuff through his specialty health care. - Yeah, he's just a really, really smart guy who is, like, hands-on experience tackling these problems and will be really good at the job. And it's exciting to think about, not just how these people campaign, but what they'd be like in the job. And I think pro-spimer, assuming of dual wins, we don't know, but a lot of the polls suggest you will. He will have to do a lot of work to kind of get back Haley Stevens supporters. I think he's done a really good job in recent weeks of kind of tamping down supporters across the line who, like, make fun of Haley Stevens in ways that are just sexist or inappropriate or just mean. There's gonna have to be more of that, like, after, when it looked like Bernie was winning in 2020, a lot of his supporters were telling other people to bend the knee and shit like that. And it's just, like, such a toxic, terrible way to consolidate and electorate. And then it'll be incumbent on everyone, no matter how bruised their feelings are, to just remember that this is about, you know, winning the Senate seat and denying Mike Rogers this election and making it a referendum on Trump. Like a vote for Rogers, a vote for Trump. And Rogers is trying to kind of avoid all hard questions. Like, I don't know. - You guys saw. - Is this a semaphore thing? - Yeah, he won't talk about the weapons. - It's a fun comment on Iran. - So Nicholas would do this interview with him. How would he vote on the multiple Senate approved measures to condemn President Donald Trump's tariffs? I don't know. Where does he stand on Trump's anti-weaponization fund? Quote, "I'm not talking about any of that stuff. I don't care. I mean, I care." As for the Iran war, he said he'd heard, "Hardly anything from constituents on the trail about it." This guy has been living in Florida. - Florida, yeah. - So he retired, bought a house in Florida, tried to run in 2024, lost a slotkin, and now he's trying to survive himself again. So yes, he definitely should time the Trump with good reason. But Mike Rogers is a character on his own, is just looking to be defined right out of the gate. And I think that if I, that's number one on a dual's list, or if Hayley wins her list. - As part of the corruption story of Trump. This guy was in government, lost, left, and went and made a bunch of money, helping out the industries. - He used to regulate. - Yeah, this whole idea that he is maybe more moderate or more old school Republican establishment than some of these guys. I think that the corruption and the tide of Trump and just sort of the out of touch vibes he gives off from having been in Florida for a while and not really caring about all these issues is a real weakness for him. But it's gotta be exploited, you know? - Yeah, this is where sometimes I, there's just, we're gonna have to do politics. It may be, maybe our dual starts a little bit further behind than Hayley Stevens would. Okay, do you believe in politics? Do you believe in the ability to persuade? Do you think a dual would be a better center than microaggers? I do. Do you think it's more important to have a democratic senate than any criticism or concern you might have about of duals being further left than you? I do. So maybe other people can be persuaded of that as well. As long as everybody kind of after this primary is over, figures out how to come together. Like, there have been moments in this, like, there's, the left is a big fractious group of people. There have been moments in a lot of these primaries where it is clear that some people who are part of these from primaries care more about winning factional fights against Democrats than they do about actually beating Republicans. There have been bad moments in interviews where I think a dual has reflected that aspect of the movement. But when he is at his best, when he is speaking about what governing can actually do, a kind of broad and optimistic vision for the country. I think, yes, that is somebody that has absolutely can kind of build support in Michigan, especially with someone who's supposed to be like, the toughest one to beat microaggers, like, come on. Like, I think that, I think like everybody needs to like, kind of figure out how to come together and then make that argument. - Last thing before we get to my conversation with Francesca Hung, I promise you, we do not enjoy talking about Ken Martin and the drama at the DNC, but unfortunately, the news keeps on coming. The latest is a story from The New York Times in which Paul Rivera, the personal friend to whom Martin assigned the fabled autopsy, claims that when Martin did finally release the report, he omitted a chapter that Rivera wrote titled, "What Happened in 2024?" It seems like something you'd want in a report about what happened in 2024, just a minor detail. The chapter criticized Biden's decision to run for re-election as, perhaps, quote, the single point of failure for 2024. It also criticized senior democratic strategists for being too rich to understand the struggles of most Americans. Rivera gave the times the full text of the allegedly missing chapter. Martin denies ever seeing or knowing about it at all, despite Rivera saying he handed him a three ring binder with the chapter in it. So this pits two incompetent people against each other, who have also been, well, at least in Ken Martin's case, deceptive in the past. So even if Ken Martin is telling the truth, this is part of the reason that you don't lie to people because it is hard to believe you when you haven't been honest about everything in the past. - I just wanna read the first line in this supposedly sort of this secret and damning chapter. American politics is a study in inflection points. - It sure is. - Boy. - It sure is. - A land of contradictions, I find. - What'd you guys make of the whole thing? - I am sure that to Ken Martin, this all feels very unfair. From this original sin of putting this guy in charge of the autopsy, getting something back that was incompetent and that would create a bunch of controversy, but not actually address our problems, deciding to not release it. I see how at each step one mistake leads to others and others. - Tangled web. - And so there's that sort of that cascade of mistakes. And then there's the sort of the cascade of the money going out to places where they don't elect senators or house members because you promise to kind of invest all over the place, including in the territories, people having questions about your fundraising and all of this sort of building on itself. And that now, even though there are parts of your program that you think makes sense and are good, it's unfair because there's no way for you to gain purchase. You can't, the fundraising is anemic because people don't trust you. You need to have more money on the books. Otherwise people keep reporting how much more money the RNC has. This guy comes out with a stupid fucking chapter. Maybe you saw it, maybe you didn't, but it only proves that you were right, that his work wasn't worthy of releasing the first place, even though people are mad at you thinking it's some sort of conspiracy. That all may be frustrating. Too fucking bad. We need the money, we need DNC chairpeople can trust. You are not that. Whether it happens now or after the elections in November, it doesn't really matter. But the idea that this guy is going to be in charge of the Democratic National Committee as we head into the presidential is ridiculous. - Yeah, the original Senate was asking your buddy, Paul Rivera to do this report 'cause he's just not in any way credential to do it. I think the last presidential campaign he worked on was in 2004 for Al Gore. - John Kerry. - Oh, sorry, John Kerry. Al Gore's for-- - I remember. - Yeah, and then Rivera worked for this New York State Senate leader who was convicted of federal fraud. And people who worked around Rivera in that era in the New York State Senate said, first of all, it was a horrible period of politics for the Democratic parties. This corrupt, awful state Senate group. And then that Rivera personally was just sort of a weird behind-the-scenes guy who didn't know what he did ever. He was in no way the right person to do this report. So picking that guy was the original sin. And then there was, as always, the cover-up was worse than the crime and spiking the report and then lying about the report. And now Rivera says Ken is lying about the release of this chapter. I don't trust either messenger here. I'm inclined to believe that if this guy wrote this chapter, he would have given it to Ken Martin personally. 'Cause why would you lie about this? I don't think there was some strategic brilliance in this chapter or write or anything really worth covering up. But I think what this does is, once again, raise questions about whether Ken Martin is an honest person. And I don't think he is. And I think if you are stepping on rakes all the time and if you are lying all the time, you should not be leading a Democratic party on top of all the fundraising failures. So yeah, this is a real fun weekend for anyone who wants to close the book on the 2024 election. When we also have Hunter Biden saying, his dad's debate performance was bad because he had cancer, but also still lashing out at anyone who said that that bad debate performance meant that he should have dropped out of the race. - A wild thing to say. - One would think that if the cancer was so bad and problematic that it would lead you to not be able to debate, it would mean you can't be president for no four years. - Right, it didn't just, it's not just the type of cancer that manifests on stage in a national debate. - It's crazy. - Well, it wasn't really, it wasn't a stroke. - Yeah, it was a kill set. - This is why I thought it was, yeah. There was a scoop today from notice that Martin told DNC members on a members-only call that he's convening a special finance committee to help with fundraising. So, I don't know who's in that committee, but hopefully it works. - If you're a state party- - If you're just clowning. - Yeah, if you're a state party, and you are hanging out at Ken Martin 'cause you get to check every month, it's something you have to realize that that check's gonna stop coming when there's no money. - Yeah, it's like two things can be true. It can be great that Ken Martin sent you a check and that you've been able to hire more staffers. Like that is important to invest in state parties, but also like you do need the money to do that. - Right, like that's the- - You have to fire them. - To raise the money, you can't just- - Right, exactly. Which seems like a problem. Did you guys see that? - There's a lot of rapid response coming out of the DNC to try to defend their work they're doing because you'll look at a lot of- There's a fantastic people at the DNC working really hard. This cannot be easy for them. But one staffer put out a video where he's petting his cat and telling people that everything's good at the DNC. There's some background music. It was deleted. - It was deleted before I had a chance to see it, to be honest. I never actually got- I saw the still of it, but I never actually got to see the video itself. Sadly for me. - Undelete the cat video. - I liked it. It got attention. - Yeah, great. Yeah, no bad press. No bad press. Yeah, it was like stroking- - It looks like it wasn't authorized. - It was pretty sure it was unauthorized. It did have a, I think, an unintentional doctor evil kind of connotation. - So when I was a kid, inspect your gadget, the opening credits. - Oh yeah. - There's a moment where you're never see Dr. Claus always petting a cat with one hand. And then there's a moment at which he runs up to the chair in front of a fireplace, spins it around and there's the arm, but it's attached to a spring and then the chair blows up. - Yeah, no. - And I thought as a kid that the villain was a chair with a spring attached to it. And that he was trying to kill Inspector Gatch. - Very literal kid. - And I, yes, a lot of these things could have been diagnosed earlier, I think. But I thought the never ending story was named that 'cause the credits were so long. - What a song. It's funny that petting a cat is evil coded and petting a puppy is like the way you soften your image. - On smart. - Yeah, Mike Vrable at press conferences being like, what infidelity? - Yeah, that's right. - Anyway, more cats from the dance here. - All right, when we come back with Sconcent Gubernatorial candidate, Francesca Home. (upbeat music) - Hey, Dan Tabersky here. I'm a podcast host, a journalist, and now with my newest project, The Author of My Own Manor. Well, it's a manifesto about manifestos. My search for inspiration in a world that feels more infuriating, more out of its freaking mind with each passing hour. Manifestos are a call to action, an artful scream. They capture our anger and they try to do something with it. This is my attempt to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place. With the warriors, the visionaries, the regular folks with just the right amount of crazy. I compare notes with radicals, secessionists, internet trolls out for a laugh and punk singers screaming their guts out, all trying to turn their anger into the world they want to see. Listen to Manifesto wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Manifesto early and add free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. So, if you want to vote this year, you should request your ballot right away. Go to votefromabraud.org and click "Request My Ballot" as to receive it by email. Questions? Don't delay. Votefromabraud.org. "Friend Chas Gahong, welcome to Pots of America. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me." I know this has to be a busy week for you, so thanks for doing this. And just to start off, you know, I think it is incredibly important for Wisconsin to have a democratic governor because we can't have an election denier like Tom Tiffany in a position to certify or not certify the 2028 election. But since Republicans will spend an ungodly amount of money to defeat you if you're the nominee, to try to defeat you, I just want to make sure you have the best possible answers to what's coming. So, I want to start with your 2020 posts supporting defunding the police, quote, "as a first step towards abolishing the police," which in a separate post you said, quote, "exists to uphold white supremacy." Now, I know you've said you're not running to defund the police, it's not something you can do as governor and that people's views can evolve. I'm wondering how your views on policing have evolved since 2020. My views have only become stronger in that I'm serious about public safety. And I will not abolish the police. My views are that people are struggling right now and need, basic needs met. And I want to focus on stopping violent crime and giving law enforcement the resources and the training that they need, but ensure that we are also holding accountable law enforcement that does not follow the law. Do you still believe that police exist to uphold white supremacy? No. When did that change for you? And what is change in your thinking since you posted that in 2020? No, I think that when you talk to people who are most justice impacted, a mother who lost a child to police violence. People who have contended with injustices and in historically marginalized communities. But justice also looks like making sure that we are implementing solutions and helping to change the material conditions of people's lives. So as a legislator for the last six years, I've had more conversations with people who are more directly connected to the problems and have learned that it is most important for a public servant like myself to make sure we're looking at sensible, practical solutions that will help keep communities safe. You said during this campaign back in May that there has to be accountability for people who commit crimes and if your governor and people commit crimes, the quote, incarceration and law enforcement are the systems in place right now. You also said your long-term vision is a world without prisons. How does that work? What I know is attainable and the policies that actually meet the urgency of the moment and understanding the realities of it means that we have to ensure that we're funding our local governments that we're bringing justice to victims and what may have been more aspirational is not primary. What we need to do is make sure that all people all across Wisconsin have access to great public schools, out of school programs, mental health resources and that we hold law enforcement accountable but also provide them with the training that they need to help prevent crime and stop crime. One place this could come up, I think in the general election and of course if you become governor, you know, commutations are yours alone, no legislature, no courts. Would you commute sentences for people convicted of murder? The last governor before Tony Evers to serve commutations was Republican Tommy Thompson and I believe that commutations moving forward, the system has to be designed by the folks who are also most impacted right now and so at this time I would not extend a commutation to somebody who has murdered somebody else. If you're governor, you'll have something of a high class problem and that one of the first things you'll have to figure out is what to do with a $2.5 billion surplus projected. Governor Evers and Republican leaders in the legislature reached a deal in May that would have given people $300 rebate checks, property tax relief, special education reimbursement and no tax on tips and over time. Past the assembly, you voted no and then it died in the Senate. 80% of voters, including 82% of Democrats said it should have passed according to the Marquette poll, why do you think the voters were wrong? We have to make sure that the people who are struggling the most have durable solutions and what that bill would have done is not given a rebate to those who are on fixed incomes to folks who are making under $50,000 a hour. That's over a million Wisconsinites. Those are people who absolutely deserve relief and we were seeing the $600 and $300 rebates go to millionaires and billionaires and I'm focused on making sure that every day working class people are not only able to get real relief through cutting property taxes which we can do and we fund our schools but also that folks are able to have access to good jobs, fair affordable childcare and free paid leave for all and so for us it's irresponsible if we don't think about some of the folks who need the funding the most. Tom Tiffany said he wants to return the entire $2.5 billion surplus of taxpayers. What specifically do you want to do with it? Would taxpayers get any refunds or what's your priority list if you're fortunate enough to be governor and have a democratic legislature? I want to cut property taxes which we can do by almost 44% when we add in a millionaire and billionaire tax. I want to make sure that we're investing in free childcare for folks across our state while also providing bridge payments so that our childcare centers can stay open. We need to invest in public education but also have funds available to attack and to make sure that we are extending healthcare. I mean Americans and Wisconsinites are risking losing their healthcare because of a bill that Tom Tiffany voted for so healthcare education and ensuring that we're lowering taxes is what I'll be focusing on with that surplus. You're the only Democrat backing a one year moratorium on data centers. You argue that the tax exemptions will cost the state more than $2 billion. Tom Tiffany says he wouldn't back a moratorium but that he'd also end those subsidies and that people shouldn't have to absorb the higher utility rates. So why is the moratorium the better policy and what's that contrast going to be like between the two of you if you're the nominee? The moratorium is what hundreds and thousands of voters across the state regardless of political ideology have been demanding because the scale and speed in which these data centers continue to grow waiting for legislation in order for them to be able to be held accountable or wouldn't have tax exemptions. The current data centers that exist in our state right now receive hundreds and thousands of dollars in tax exemptions and do not have to pay a sales and use tax. The people of Wisconsin deserve to have community say in community control. That means ensuring that no utility costs go up, that we have regulations in place to hold polluters accountable and that we aren't Foxconn again giving away billions of dollars in subsidies while creating very few new jobs and destroying a community in what they're able to do with their own property taxes and being able to grow their community. We should be able to have a say in making sure that big tech knows we're not here to sell out our natural resources and we're not selling out our state to big tech. Do you see the moratorium being lifted after a year or what under what conditions would you lift it? The big part is the regulations to make sure that we're holding those polluters accountable, that we aren't raising rates for utilities and that the public service commission and people who are approving these different projects are actually we hold the folks who are going to be responsible in thinking about what the public good is instead of people who may be taking money from the utility companies appointed to those positions. I think it's important that we establish local control but that there are statewide guidelines in having no tax exemptions and ensuring that data centers actually have to pay their own way and upfront if they're going to build in Wisconsin. The last primary debate was pretty friendly with you and your primary opponents and for For people who are going to. I vote soon and they're wondering if they're trying to decide between you and David Crowley, who's your leading opponent in the primary right now. What's one place where the two of you disagree? We disagree on the moratorium on data centers. We disagree on ending the Vulture program. I believe that public dollars should stay in public schools. We disagree on how much two taxed millionaires and billionaires to ensure that we have enough revenue to invest in the things that Wisconsinites care about, like childcare, like paid leave, public schools, and we disagree in how much we should be spending on removing, or how much of the tax exemptions and corporate loopholes that we should be eliminating. Fortunately, Crowley has not been clear on which policies that he supports. So I hear you on the Vulture program, like taking money away from public educations. It happens all across the country. You know, there is a program now. There are about 30,000 kids in Milwaukee who are in that program. Their families are income-capped. What does winding the program down mean for them and what happens to those kids what year does it end? Right now, it's as important to establish accountability and transparency and educating folks about where their property taxes go. We have a bill that's ready that would include a property tax report. How much of those tax dollars are actually going to private schools? With the Milwaukee School's Vulture program, that would be the last Vulture program that we would face out, and I believe it's important for folks to know that families actually can receive a tax credit for private school tuition. But right now, administration of that Vulture program is costing our state over $1.2 billion. And so, sunsetting that program for Milwaukee, for us, we're looking at at least the next second or third session. So that would be around 2030. But again, we want to make sure NPS is a partner with us, and that the families who are in the program, that the education is not disrupted. And even when we put the caps on it, that doesn't mean that any of the students who are enrolled in Vultures now would have learning disruptions. So you're running as a Democratic socialist, a couple people have pointed that out. A few weeks ago, a market asked Wisconsin voters how they felt about that label. 54% of Democrats have a favorable view, especially younger ones. But when it comes to independence, only 13% have a favorable view. 52% have an unfavorable view of Democratic socialists. What is your plan for those voters who you'll obviously need to win? Do you want to persuade them to change their mind about Democratic Socialism, or do you want to persuade them that the label doesn't matter? I want to tell them what other Wisconsinites have told me, that it is about the solutions and not just the labels and the solutions that we are presenting that actually meet the moment to solve the problem, that the system is rigged against working-class people. And I will always put working-class people first, that fighting to fully fund our public schools, have free child care, affordable housing, and fair cheaper health care, looks like having someone who also understands the struggle right now. I'm the only wage worker, only single mom. I'm a renter, and I've worked in the legislature for the last six years. I'm a public servant first, and I learned that from opening a business and running a restaurant, as well as being a wage worker right now. And so, I think this is a lot about listening to voters and letting them know more about our solutions and ensuring that I'm not here to expand a brand. I'm here to make sure that Wisconsinites get what they deserve. What is the best case for your candidacy that has nothing to do with any of what we just discussed? What else would you. What other pitch would you like to make? Since we've launched our campaign, we've learned that Wisconsinites all across our state, regardless of generation, race, faith, ethnicity, are tired, and they're stressed, and they're frustrated. And when we talk about building a movement and transformative change, that we can have a state that invests in our communities, that raises wages, and ensures that we're caring and protecting one another. We have now grown our movement to over 7,000 people who have volunteered for our campaign, over 110,000 dollars, that this is a multigenerational coalition. And what's most excited is the support that's coming from younger voters, first-time voters, or people who have not voted in elections for the last six, seven years. I think people deserve to have a candidate that they believe in and that they know is not only just fighting for them, but fighting alongside them. Francesca Hong, thank you so much for joining PodSave America and good luck in this last week. Thank you so much. Take care. Take care. That's our show for today, thanks to Francesca Hong for coming on. We'll be back with a new episode on Friday. PodSave America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Ferris Safari, with Reed Charlene, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Heffkoat, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, Carol Pellevive, David Tolls, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is probably unionized with the writer's Guild of America East.