From Mississippi To Venture Capital with B. Pagels-Minor, Founder of DVGRNT Ventures

[Music] Welcome, welcome everybody to another great episode of the Beyond Normal Podcast. I'm excited to be here your host, Kenny Groom. We have a very special guest. They are the founder of Divergent Ventures. Their name is Bee Pagels Minor. I'm excited for her. I am excited for them to come on stage and share their story. So without further ado, let's bring them on to the stage. This episode is brought to you in partnership with Ascentum, which is in a warm-winding coaching practice that helps high-performing professionals advance and achieve the promotions and pay they deserve Ascent to powerful heights with Ascentum. It's going so well. Also, I'm so trying to do something like that. That was perfect. I'm ready to figure out how to leave that in there because that is a real moment in podcast. Because also it's about you did exactly what you're supposed to do. When you make a mistake, you immediately corrected it and you moved on and that's exactly how it's supposed to happen. I appreciate that. I'm glad you can come on the platform. You have an amazing story. You spent some time in the startup world. Now you're taking on the challenge, quite the challenge that we all know in this time's a venture capital. But without further ado, tell us a little bit about your story, your journey prior to founding divergent ventures. Yeah. I think I'm a classic example. Someone who legitimately, if you had asked me what I would do, I would tell you that I was going to be maybe an attorney or some other type of very non-risky role when I was a kid. Because I grew up in the Mississippi Tennessee area. Literally, the stones are between the two. You can go back and forth between the two states. And so that's how my life was. We would spend the week in the city and then we would go down to the country on the weekends with our forewailers and all that other good stuff and get super muddy, then come back and be proper again on Monday. And growing up, my mom and my dad and all of my cousins, my aunts, uncles, they talked about being an attorney or being a doctor or being a police officer. That was like the pinnacle. If you got any of those types of things, you would just be set for life. And I was on that path for most of my life. So I went through high school, worked really hard, got into Duke University. But then actually, in the past, this setback, I got it, I had to sustain a pretty bad injury. And so then I decided to take some time off and actually spend a year in Memphis. And then when I was applying back to colleges, my mom was like, "Well, what do you really want to do?" And I was like, "Well, practically, I probably need to be in a place that I can afford to both work and do work that can help me do something after I graduate and also educate me." And so that's actually how I ended up, you know, transferring to Northwest University. And you know, I tell people all the time is one of the things that actually saved my life because I actually have thyroid disease. And so Northwest University I developed thyroid cancer. And so Northwest training is one of those places that, you know, truly midwestern values, they were just like, "Well, we're going to wrap all of our services around you and make sure you're okay because that's an uninsured person." And so there's the ones who got me into the hospital system, the doctors, actually had a car that would take me back and forth to my appointment. So I could have all of my different treatments. And then they worked with my professors to help make sure that I could still graduate on time even though I was so sick. And so that is one of those like really fundamentally game-tangering moments for me. Because all of a sudden, you know, I'm this like 20-year-old who had thought about like, "Well, I might actually die." And if I do die, is it reasonable now to be thinking about, you know, just being an attorney like, "Or should I be thinking about other things that I might want to do?" And so that's when I started pursuing other potential career things, for instance, you know, consulting and all this other type of stuff. However, I still do not have any concept of technology or technology companies or how to work at them. So I went on that consulting path. But then I happened to graduate in 2008 with the largest economic downturn up into the most recent one, right? And so I actually got a job as consultant and then I actually got laid off like four months after I started. And so I was actually doing like all of this like gig work, right? So I was like, I was doing like handy person work, right? I was just doing like the craziest stuff to really just like make my life work. I was like, "I don't really care." I was like, "I just need to make money to make ends meet." I mean, like actually my favorite gig was actually being the barista at Tijuana. So Tijuana doesn't even exist anymore. Okay? So some people are going to be like, "What do you say? What do you think is a Tijuana?" Yes, they used to be a place. It's a tea store in those in-malls. Also, balls don't exist anymore. But these are tea stores in-malls you'd go there. And I was the one who would make your perfect tea. And I would just like be doing crazy infusions, right? Because like, you know, head tea is like great. But it was also like the most miserable job. Because like you need to know that you can be more, it's so difficult to deal with that. And so I end up going to grad school, got my MBA, my MIS. And through that experience, they actually had me go to a career fair where I met a guy named Brian Lutleton who I was the owner of a company. I'll share some of that.com, which did affiliate marketing. So now we obviously think about influencers everywhere. But back then, there was a different version of influencers. And these were like mommy bloggers or people who were like sports people. And then they would put links on their website for companies. So you know, for instance, you know, Target would say, "Hey, I want to partner with you. Can you put this link on my website?" And then they'd give them back a cut. And so that's the inside thing that this network did. And so I started off there as a first level customer support. And then kind of worked my way up to, you know, getting to be the agency relationship manager and kind of getting to this product space at the end of my career there. And it was really a fundamental change for me. Because even though I could have just kept pursuing, you know, this like very specific path, I now understood that there was something called product management. And that it could be something that's very lucrative. I still went to law school, but I am very proud to say I'm a law school dropout. Although I could still finish like this is because there's my parents telling me, I could still finish if I really wanted to, but it really was like, you know, after I realized that technology was such a really like, it's just the most complex, most interesting thing for me that I personally could do because the problems are so interesting. They're so dynamic. And then at the core of everything is how do you delight and provide value to people? And that's the thing that I feel like drives me in everything that I do. And so you know, I spent, you know, over a decade as a product person, right? Going through companies like cars.com, wise and sprout social, Apple, Netflix, you know, building all kinds of crazy types of products as well as building super practical ones to just help, you know, influence decision making. And so all of it really kind of came through and kind of steeped me in this idea of what it means to build products successfully that are both nationally admired and also can expand around the world. And so what I really told people was I became an insight machine who also really, really has a very keen sense of what product market fit looks like. And so what did I mean by product market fits? A product market fit is simply when you know that as a company, you have a product that is both, is that is desirable. That is something that your customers use in a very extreme and dynamic way. And so what does that mean? Like a great example is Twitter and the old days, which actually they started to become Twitter now in the new days too, but Twitter and the old days when it first came up, people would use it so explosively that it would fail all the time, right? And the reason it would fail is just because they couldn't, they couldn't scale up their services fast enough for how people were actually using that service. And so then the last part, and this is the thing that Twitter also never figured out. So it's kind of an interesting issue that Twitter has is that you also have to be profitable, right? And so product market fit, you know, helping people accelerate to that is what I really started doing, you know, on the side and then eventually it kind of is my sole responsibility. And as I was doing that, I was working with increasingly more dynamic and interesting companies all over the self, all over the Midwest, all over the Mount West. And I was so compelled by these leaders that I would come back to my network in California and say, hey, like, you know, people with money, look at these cool companies over here. And I think they're going to be very, very, very, very, very, you know, amazing. They're going to make lots of money. How about you come and invest? And they said, no. And because they kept saying no to me, naturally the way that my personality goes, it's like, what's the real problem here? And then as you started doing the research, you just realized it's just not something. Easey's just happens to not really invest in the middle middle America, right? They commonly call this like the, if so, for Easey's who do, they say that this is the best of the rest approach. And I actually call BS on that, right? Because the simple fact is, is that when I ended up in Silicon Valley at Apple, I was not from California, right? I'm from Mississippi, all of my co-workers, like I think I only need three people in a building of 1,000 people who are actually from California, who are working in Apple. And so what I really realized is that what happened is that the rest of this country is so underdeveloped. that all of us who are super talented are coming over to these coasts to work because that's where really cool jobs are. But in reality, if we could actually stay at home, then Mississippi, in Tennessee, in Georgia, in Illinois, in Iowa, in Nebraska, in Arizona, in Colorado, would actually be the innovation capital of this country. It would not be California, in New York, in Texas, right? And so the sub-reality is not the best of the rest. It's just literally allowing the best to remain where they've always wanted to remain and be successful. So that's what this venture company really came about. It's to actually incentivize and create an ecosystem that allows us who are super talented to stay in our communities and create the type of innovation we need to support, sustain, and enhance the communities that we're actually from. I appreciate that breakdown there, because you touch on a lot, right? But the journey that you've been on is well for one, it's unique, right? And nobody can say that they have a story that's close to yours, right? So like, it's in certain ways, it makes sense that you're taking on this challenge of venture capital, right? And you're investing in areas, like you said, that are just often overlooked. I want to go back to something though, because you talked about going to grad school, law school, right? Yes, totally. But as you were going through that, your story, you touched on a couple things where you saw, you know, some of the opportunities to work for startups and work with these different companies, there was some value in that, right? And when we think about attorneys, we think about people in the legal profession, there's like this implicit value to society, right? And the legal profession, like that's usually like, it's something that we just assume, right? Attorneys are out here to make our system, our legal system better, our country better. So I'm curious, like, what did you see in your interactions with these companies where you say, okay, like, this is the value, like this is, this is value to society, right? If I were to use my talents in this space here. You know, it's a funny, like, so one, I think you're very nice to say that's attorney is just supposed to be making the legal system better, because I think some people argue that that's a little bit different. You know, I think the thing is that whenever you're trying to decide on what to do, a lot of times you need to really do some introspection to figure out, is this something that only I can do, or is this something that a million other people could do, and potentially could be even more passionate and more successful at doing it? And so when I was really weighing this option between continuing to do the law school thing or going over to the startup, there are a few factors. So first of all, money is the total thing. Like, I'm not going to lie about that. I'm not going to try to pretend like I'm more noble than everyone else. And I didn't see like, oh, there's actually potentially a lot more money over here with these like exits and stuff like that in some of the places. So that's always going to be part of it, because you do need to think about what is the opportunity cost for whatever you're deciding to do. But the bigger thing about it was, is that all the problems were so complex and so different, and especially different each company that is like, well, I'm going to have to learn new industries. I'm going to have to learn new user situations. And critical thinking is perhaps the most important quality that any human can develop over time. I like to think that you virtually only have somewhere between 20 and 25 really great years of work. Right? It means that you spend like the first anywhere from three to seven years trying to work your way to the point that you can do interesting work. Right? And so then you have this small period of time. So let's say that somewhere between 10 and 20 years where you actually do interesting work that challenges you, that grows you, that makes you something, someone different than what you would have been if you hadn't done this. And then you are on the other side of it, right? Because age is a totally a thing in industry. So unless you have your own company at a certain point or unless you are a huge, you know, factor in a company over a certain point, changes are you're not going to really grow your repertoire after a certain age. You have a very complex, it's a very compact amount of time that you have to essentially create a circumstance that you can be on the best version of yourself. And so when I really looked at that, the thing about law school is I can read stuff and I can critically think and I can figure out how to make things work. But when I really originally went to law school, part of my thought process is how do I create more equity more? Right? Equity is not simply this idea that like so for instance, you know, I defend someone who has had an injustice. It's also thinking about like how can I from a strategic standpoint, for instance, help impact laws or impact the way that the judicial system in general thinks about something so that there's equity. But what I realize is that there's an economic component to that too, right? So like if you're an attorney and you want to pursue something, you need to have access to the right data so that you can do research on that case. And I realized that I was like, well, I can go seek out those resources or I could be a person who actually provides resources to someone else to do such a thing, right? And that's when it really started to come and thing. I was like, well, one, I've now established that I think that many other people could do this type of law that I'm pursuing. But I don't know if there's that many people who have my capacities to do technology because this is what the market is showing me based on what, you know, the offers I'm getting and how much money and all this other stuff is that I'm very highly valuable in this particular area. And perhaps I can then repurpose some of that money and put it back to those people who are going to need that in order to actually create the equity that I was actually looking for to be there. And so that's the thing that I really kind of looked at. So it was really more of a waiting game, right? Because almost everything I think you have to have this like someone as an individual, you are the lead in your story, right? So naturally you have a selfish view. You're like, okay, I have to do all these things. I'm the person like blah, blah, blah, blah. And so sometimes you have to take a step back and say, okay, if I was a supporting actor in this other person's story, would this story be more compelling? And what I often found when I was trying to like figure some of these things out, I was like, actually, I'm a much better supporting actor over here. And then I just kept waiting until I found the lead story for myself. >> Mm. That's powerful. So throughout your career, I'm curious, like going back to your time prior to you starting the venture company, the version of Ventures, did you enjoy managing people being the leader of folks? >> Yeah, so it's really interesting. The product management is kind of a double sided thing. So sometimes you are a manager of people, sometimes you're a manager of a product, sometimes you're a manager of teams of people who have to come to decision making. So there's various layer of players to that. And what I want to tell you is I absolutely loved my entire career at helping people be a better version of themselves. Right? And so what that means is really, when you think about really great product people, they imbue everyone that they meet with product thinking. So product thinking is this very simple concept. And what it is, is let's say a customer service person would come to me and say, hey, we're getting a lot of customer complaints about this report, I think we should fix it. You know, I might go back to them and say, okay, what were the complaints? And they were like, well, it just doesn't work. I was like, okay, can you do me a favor, go back over there and ask them what outcome they were looking for when they were looking at those reports. So then we can actually determine if it's the reports that's broken or if it's our attention that we have for a report is different than the intention that people are looking for. Right? Creating someone who now more more dynamically as they have conversations with customers, more dynamically even when they're at home. Like, you know, I tell my wife, like, actually, if my wife were here, she would say, be just things like a product person. And then because I'm married to her, she's like, I think more like a product person too, because that's the way you operate. And so imbueing people with that ability to create circumstances for exponential growth for themselves and for the product is my absolute favorite part of the work that I did. And I haven't said that what I will say is the thing about the product teams is that sometimes you just get maxed out on the product. You know, you're like, okay, I've been working on this product for like, you know, XYZ period time, you're just like, I'm good on it. Like, I've done enough, I've learned enough, I need a new problem to solve. And so that's definitely where I was towards the end of my, you know, towards the point that I was trying to decide if I wanted to open this venture firm or not. I was like, well, you know, I'm not sure if there's a product right now that really is so compelling to me that I really want to go back into a place and do that. But what is really interesting to me is whether I could take many of the principles I've learned in my product career and actually implement them at scale and add a check to that by supporting dynamic founders who I think have exponential likelihood to not only to your product market that, but to be, you know, very, you know, innovative game-changing products. And so that's really what the difference was for me. It's, you know, I can take what I love most about what I've done and implement it in a way that could be really, really, really foundationally amazing for others. I love that. I love that so much. The way that you're able to connect these stories, maybe it is your product background, I don't know, but it just seems like you know. I would tell people, I would say, you know, I'm from Mississippi, we storytellers, you know, like, you know, have you ever met a southerner who couldn't put some words together? You're just like, wait, is this true or is this fiction? Just because, but you know, that's one of the things again. This is why I love being southerner, you know, it just changes. There's so much. about culture the way that you grow up, the way that you operate. And obviously you also add in there being black. And it's just a way there's a rhythm to it. And you know, I remember when I would just sit on the couch and watch my family members, you know, relate things. And I would always just be like, it felt like music, right? It's like, it's like, and you know, the one uncle would be jazz. The auntie would be gospel because of now over here with that new R&B. And it was really young cousin with the hip hop. And so it took us a while to get to the right beat on that one. But you know, it was just like, this is amazing experience. It's just observing them. And so a lot of times, you know, when people ask me, because like people assume that this is me, I was like, no, I'm just very fortunate to be around so many people who are so dynamic. And all I tried to do is kind of hit their level when it came to how they explained and then brought people into the conversation. So I want to take it take it home. Let's go back to home where you grew up. I was growing up in the South. Like, you know, do you feel like, you know, being in the South, I'm in the South myself. I'm in the city, right? So I feel like I'm a little bit, a little shelter sometimes, because I don't get like the full experience of living in a state in a Southern state. So I'm curious, like, just growing up, do you feel like your environment allowed you to be your full self? Or do you feel like that's something where, you know, obviously you moved around, you've been in different places. Like, did you have to go to these different places to be comfortable in your own skin? You know, it's so interesting. So one of the things I tell people most, like in experiences, even like my little cousins, one of the first things I tell them is go somewhere else to go to college, right? Go somewhere else, right? Because the number one thing I've learned is that it is dramatically different from regional region. And that's actually a really cool thing. And then if you add on that going internationally, then you're like, they don't know, it's like, wow, it's super dramatically different even from an international perspective. And then I will say, you know, for me, like so, for instance, you know, most people say, well, you're trans, non-binary, lesbian, like, you know, so you must have really struggled in the South. The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to that gay people or trans people existed when I was growing up, right? Because there weren't even media representations that I could refer to as, you know, a teenager to even give me this idea. So I didn't feel uncomfortable in that way. I actually felt more uncomfortable because I was really smart. And like, I didn't speak like other people in my community. And so I actually asked my mom, I was like, why don't I have as much of a Southern accent as everyone else? And she was like, I really feel like you watch TV. And then you just tried to sound like the people on TV. Like that's just who you were. Like that's who you wanted to talk to them. And it really did. That was actually more ostracizing for me than whether I like, like I played sports for most of my life. So I would be in like more like masculine looking clothes. And so they would dog me a little bit about that. But they were really just like, why do you talk white? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know why I talk like this. I just talk the way that I do. And so, you know, that was a little bit more of a struggle for me than anything else. But then, you know, I started traveling, right? And so you end up, you know, you're going to North Carolina, you go to New York, you go to DC, you go to Chicago, and you find out actually, I'm just the blurred, right? A black nerd. And there's actually a whole bunch of us, right? There's I'm not that exceptional in all actually, right? Because that's another concept that used to happen in white. Like it's like, there's this like, it's like black exceptionalism. It's like this small percentage of black people are really, really amazing. And no, no, no, actually all black people are really, really freaking amazing, right? It just happens that, you know, we've decided that because some people act or participate in life in one way that they somehow are a bad representation of blackness, but the thing is blackness is just beautiful. And everyone should represent blackness in the way that makes sense for them. And so, I say that because, you know, the thing that I actually actually find to be the most disturbing about kind of coming out of, especially if you're kind of identified as being smart or you have high potential is that they never wanted me to fail, right? Like it was like, no, you have to be perfect. And that desire to be perfect was much more damaging than if someone had said, well, you're lesbian. And I think that's weird, right? It's like that actually, like someone hating me like being homophobic would have probably been more acceptable than how much pressure I felt it was on my shoulders because somehow I had to be successful because if I didn't, I would feel the whole family. Or actually worse, because the whole church actually put the money together to to give me stuff to go to college. So it's like, I'm gonna fail the whole church. If I don't succeed, like this is a lot of pressure to put on a seven-tier owe, right? They bought the Lord into it. Exactly. I was like, you don't need to pray over me because I'm a time of study, but I can't guarantee you that. I can't do that, right? You know, so that's the thing. So I think that's the thing. Like I would say that that's the most harmful thing that it actually happens in every community because again, by the time I got to college, you know, my friend from DC, she's like, yeah, but it was the same, I feel the same way. My friend from Philly, I feel the same exact way. Like I'm the one who's supposed to be successful because I was a smarter one in my community and I have all this pressure on me. So that's the thing. I would encourage people to remember, again, everyone has potential to be amazing. We don't know who's gonna have a million dollar ideal, billion dollar ID. I mean, look at Jay-Z. I'm pretty sure people in their heads community were just like, that dude going in and up in jail, right? They probably didn't invest nearly as much time and energy as they probably should have invested in them, right? Because they didn't see his potential. And the reality is you don't know. Like everyone has so much potential. And so until someone is dead, you have no idea who they will be, or actually who they will be the parent of, like, you know, who they will help out. You know, I was actually on the drive-back over here and there's the young woman. You could tell she recently became unhoused. And I was just like, you could tell her spirit feels so full, though. Like I could tell and I was like, and so I stopped and I was like, you know, what's up? Like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, it gave some cash, but I was like, dude, it's like, you got this as a girl light. You have so much light, right? And so we can never, never, never discount how much potential and how much capacity for amazingness the person can have. It's the worst thing we can possibly do to them. Yeah, I love that. And just going back to your point earlier around, you don't know what position you can play. You will play in somebody else's story. So that I think that ties in, you know, really good. And I'm curious. I want to, all right, I want you to wear your founder hat now. Speaking about, you know, you've touched on it quite a bit throughout the conversation around, you know, embracing your strengths, embracing who you are and finding the areas where you can add the most value. A lot of times it's a founder starting something new. You're not the best at stuff, right? And it's just natural, right? You're not going to, most of the time, you know, we're all not, we're not aliens, right? So we're not going to be great at every aspect of running a business. What's in the area of the business, you know, divergent ventures where you've had to, you know, find the right person to play the right role in your story as you build out the company. I'm curious, what's the area of the business that you get more interested in, right? Because like, you know, being a founder of 2020 is different than being a founder in like 2018 and 2012 and all other stuff. So actually, so there's two things I thought of. I was like, first and foremost, I was like, I'm going to have to productize as much as this is possible, right? And so what, what does that look like? So examples are, you know, which services can I piece together to kind of automate a certain workflow, for instance? Like, you know, from onboarding, you know, you know, onboarding LPs, like so LPs are limited partners in the funds of people who are actually giving their money to invest on their behalf all the way to how do I figure out how to do taxes, right? So those types of things, like, okay, this is very clear. Like, there should be products that do taxes, there should be products that do onboarding, there's probably products that do finance, right? So those types of things are like, so, so it's even beyond, like, you know, how do you find the right person? Which thing is can you automate and make super easy and simple to do? Because, you know, my first thing is, is like, how do I de-risk mistakes, right? Because I'm dealing with finance. And so, you know, a decimal point in a little wrong place, and then all of a sudden a deal goes from this that's great to something that's super terrible, right? And so, you know, that thing is very interesting. You know, also like law firms, you know, I interviewed a dozen law firms to figure out which one I thought was like the best that had the highest quality that that would be a great partner to me. Because, you know, I understand that, you know, again, having my law school background to it is like, I'm going to have a problem because I need to be able to call someone in two seconds. So then the things that I was like, so now I understand what I can actually buy and I can, and I can just, you know, use tooling for the real question with the game. Well, which services, which things do, which actually do I not have? So even though I've done lots of finance deals, but as an investor, I've looked at many different deals, like finances, even if I wanted to be graded, it's not something I'm not that interested, right? I want you to think about the thing I'm graded, which is figuring out who, like, what company I think has great partner, but how to make sure you find the right found and you have a lot of investment, you know, a lot of ability to coach and create that make that person super successful. And so then you know, so then, so the first thing that looks first was, okay, let me look for someone who's going to be a great finance partner, right? So someone who really lives and breathes that and who's going to get excited about it. The second thing I was saying, I was like, well, how can I find a process person? So again, even though I'm really good at creating processes, I actually kind of hate it. Like I, I, I really like to do the other stuff that's more fun, that's more dynamic than changes in my mind a little bit more. And so I was like, well, let me go find a, you know, and a process person saying in front of my chief of staff, his, his, his background, he has a degree in engineering, right? And you know, he does that type of work every single day. And within like the first 24 hours of hiring him, he's like, what can we do with these 15 products like you go do whatever you want to do. I was like this This is perfect, you go do it. And so that's the thing, you figure out, like what do I love to do? So again, for everything you do in life, what is the thing that solely I'm the best at doing? And that everything else, you find someone else who can do it for you. - That's a bar. That is, you touched on accounting, taxes. We had a founder up here last season, compliant, and they automate that kind of stuff in the calendars and stuff like that. I get anxiety when I have to do LLC forms and I'm in the government money. It makes me very tense. - Yeah, I mean, the name of what's it? (laughs) - Yes, and so that founder that we had on, you know, Shiloh, she's probably forgotten more stuff than I'll ever learn about accounting and taxes. Like, so just hearing the examples, like you said, there's people out here who are amazing, there's people out here who enjoy taxes. I then enjoy the process of it figuring out how to save money, how to maximize, you know, your dollars. Why not let them do that? Like, obviously, there's a cost to having people in these positions, right? You got to pay people with their word. But the time is saved. Do you touch on that? Just the time it allows you to do what you enjoy and what you're good at. It's priceless. I know we can put a dollar signs on some of this stuff, but it really is priceless once you open your calendar up to do what you really want to do. - Yeah, yeah, 100% to that. And the other thing about it too, so just one thing I would say, for my first hires, the other thing I thought about it is, is like, one of the things I thought was strange when I was first really coming out of school and really trying to get jobs. So there's this thing called equity in a company, right? And I thought it was so fascinating how many people would not quantify equity for people. So it's like, I'm employee number 12, and you don't want to give me a piece of your company when I'm going to be one of the most important factors to your success. That seems very strange and very selfish. And so the second part is, even if you're just starting out and you don't have a lot of budget, reward your employees with equity, reward your employees with being part owners of the company, and then give them the power to do what they're best at, right? Because that's another part of this idea of, you know, it's not enough to have people work for you. You need to have people who are working for themselves. And that's in, and it's through you, because they know if I built this company to a million dollars or two million dollars or 10 million dollars or a billion dollars, I got this trunk here. And so there's just a different level of passion. There's a different level of ownership. And again, it still makes your life so much easier because you don't have to go follow up and do anything with those people. Because they're like, no, I got this because my money involved here too. And I'm like, all right, cool. I was like, I'm sorry, boss. You go do your thing. It's like you go do what you want to do. And I'm going to sit over here and just continue to reach you on over here. Yeah, money talks. So if you can elaborate a little bit around the, obviously venture capital you're looking to invest money in businesses and startups. Like, what are the, obviously we've narrowed down the regions, but I'm curious, like what are some of the other qualifications or categories where you're looking to invest in these businesses? Yeah, so I'm generally vertical agnostic. And so what that means is that I'm really, really, especially when, so one of the pieces I've got for, actually a few different people, is that when you're investing in a region that is generally underdeveloped, it's better to be agnostic because you want to start to create the ecosystem and then figure out exactly where the talent is leading. So it makes more sense to kind of figure out to engender kind of like that igniting force. So then you can actually kind of see what sticks a little bit. So that's a little bit for the agnostic part. So I would like to clarify that because people think it's, well, you just don't want to choose. Like, no, I'm thinking, I'm taking a thoughtful approach to see how we can actually engender certain types of things. Like, for instance, in the South, I would expect, if all things being equal, why would health care and climate tech and all those things be the most important things to Southerners, right? Because the South is having tornadoes, hurricanes. This is a big issue. In the Midwest, logistics, of course, it's something that like a lot of the Midwest has a lot of those types of things. But there's also agriculture, right? And so these are the things that you kind of think about. Like, this is what I would hope would mean these areas. But the reality is they may not have all the reasons which they need to actually build companies in those particular industries right now. So we'll start off with doing investigation, figuring out where the most talented people are, and then it's partnering with those people to figure out what they actually want to do. And so sometimes those will be people who already have companies that are in existence or sometimes you'll be in a situation where you'll find really just really great founders and even work with them to build up something. But then, taking a step back, what does a great founder look like to me, right? Because that's really what it is. Like, all things being equal, I don't care what company it is. I don't care how great the idea is. I don't care how much money they've made. And you're just like, let me look at this person in front of me. And do I think this person is going to make money? And so the founders for the most important part of this process to me. And so I'm looking for people that are highly coachable. Because again, that's what I figured out of my car. One, I'm best at it. I'm really great at coaching people. And what they're also highly coachable, they're very humble. That means they're going to listen to people. That means they're going to be-- they're going to soak up information. And they won't be beholden to an idea if it's not going to work. Like, you know, it's always very fascinating, right? Because the companies that think about, how do I phase out my current product for the next best idea kind of thought process? I was a really like capital efficient founder. So I was under very strange-- and I've worked at many of these companies, actually-- that they get some money. And then their run rate of money spending is crazy. So run rate is when-- it's essentially how much money a company spends each month. And then some of the people will say, you know, how much run rate-- how much run will this give you if we give you xyz amount of money? And they'll say, we know my run rate is like, you know, $1 million a month. So if you give me $12 million, I'll have 12 months of run rate. And so the thing is that, you know, I like, for instance, the strike founder. So strike has raised a crap ton of money. But that might have been super capital efficient. So it's something that they've only used up like 25% or 30% of the money that they've raised. And they still decided not to do an IPO. And in fact, they're going to raise more money to give out-- to basically compensate those employees whose stock options are going to lapse. And again, so that's a great leader who cares about their team, who's making sure that they get paid so that I love that. But then he's also like, well, what do I need to do to make sure I don't have to make a poor choice potentially and go IPO? Well, I'm going to raise more money. And because I'm so capital efficient, I'm confident I can do that. And I think that that's the other part of it. Because the simple fact is that, you know, because of the regions that I'm investing in, there isn't as much VC dollars. So anyone I'm investing in needs to understand that you may not get that much more funding than what I'm going to give you. And so whatever I give you has to last you for an entire-- a long period of time. And so if they aren't thinking to do that capital efficient lens, they're going to run out of money. And then I'm not going to get a return on my investment. And so that's a big problem. And the last thing is, is that I am really increasingly bullish on M&A. So M&A is mergers and acquisitions. And so what that means is looking at companies that are going to have a high likelihood of being acquired. And that can be acquired by other large corporations. Or maybe it's like a great target for a private equity firm who might want to take it and make it a part of their portfolio of companies. And so again, the idea being that I don't think IPOs will be as interesting because there's so many of the IPOs that have happened recently have done very poorly. So IPOs and initial public offerings, at the very first time any company goes onto the stock market. And so sometimes as NASDAQ, New York Stock Exchange, but also there's many other stock exchanges in the world. So it's any time the IPO across any of these exchanges. And so I think that it's increasingly unlikely for companies to be able to do this successfully. And so the number one way to exit is through an M&A action. And M&A is usually something that's a highly collaborative partnership driven role. Like in order to do that, you have to be the type of leader that goes out and creates friends. You have to be-- and it's not the popular kid. Because the popular kid doesn't always actually have friends. They just have followers. I'm talking about the person who has friends, right? The people who are like, no, I think your idea is great. And I want to invest in you. A great example is like the OpenAI in Microsoft relationship, right? OpenAI is a great company that from day one had a lot of acquisition potential because companies like Microsoft were one of some of their original investors. And so again, so you're looking for companies that have that mindset, have that ability to be super collaborative. And then if you-- and if that works, then it de-risked my potential investment, right? Because I can maybe potentially put in funds for lower multiples and then have higher exit numbers. Because it's a de-risk portfolio. So in the end, it's about people who are cool, who are friendly, who are thoughtful, who care about their employees, who care about what it looks like to return capital to people. And there's a, and there's a, you can tell pretty quickly the difference between people that are great founders that would be great for my portfolio and then other folks as well. Yeah, I like how you you brought in the the the mergers and acquisitions. I'm curious like your thoughts. There's been a couple black brands that have sold to bigger brands that are worldwide and like you said, there's that partnership there. We know the famous ones like a rion and stuff like that, but then there's also some some other cool brands that have sold recently. I'm curious what are your thoughts on founders that that are open to that idea of, you know, ultimately having their brand be a part of a part of a bigger kind of conglomerate. So are you really asking like is there a responsibility for a black brand to potentially not choose to be a part of a conglomerate or are you asking something else? Well, you're touching on it. I think there has been some backlash on certain outlets right around, well, why are you selling? Right. But it's like, you know, like getting this money. And then I also get to add value within like a you know, a bigger entity in addition to that, taking my money and then investing it into back into our communities right as an as an option. So I'm curious like what are your thoughts on founders that are taking that route and they're not, you know, they're they're okay with getting, you know, some form of a payout versus saying I need to hit unicorn status. It's the first of all, I don't think anyone should ever chase unicorn status right because majority of companies aren't going to accomplish it like and there's many, many, many, many millions of companies that existed that are exceptionally great companies that employ thousands of people and put millions or billions of dollars over time into their communities and create really great economic opportunity communities. So I don't think unicorn status makes sense. Now having said that for black owned companies, I think there's a couple different things. A lot of the companies that have, you know, sold recently that there's been backlash over. They've actually been doing this for years. So this isn't like a one or two or five or like this, they've been on this grind for a very, very, very long time and I'm not sure if it's fair to require someone to own a company for their entire life when it is tiring right like maybe they want to sell the company because they want to be able to take a vacation when they want to take a vacation. And that's kind of okay or maybe they want to sell the company because they started when they were much younger and now they're married with a family and they realize like I can't be able to be as effective at this company if I also want to be a great parent. And so I don't begrudge anyone for making the personal decision to do that. Now then the second part of this is is like is it okay to sell it to a large number. Well, my better question would be is it okay for them to take a large pay cut not to. Right, I'm not sure if anyone's responsibility to take less than what they potentially could get from something to maintain a certain type of ownership or certain characteristic of the type of owner. Now could they create some some synergistic, you know, contract language or something like that that says, you know, you can only do this or you have to be this type of behavior. I don't know like maybe that's the strategy, but the bigger thing is here is that I remember when I like really, you know, did my own first thing. I was like, well, if this hits, I'm going to sell it. I'm going to do something bigger in the next time. And sometimes I think that's also part of it. So like let me go ahead and sell this take a year or two off, you know, get my, you know, energy back and I'm going to build something bigger and better because now I know more. And the thing is is that that's what that's what white folks do all the time. Honestly, like that's what they do. Like they sell their company and then they go do something that's even better for the second or the third or four company. And there's no requirement for them to sell it to another white person, right? Like that's not how they talk about it. They say I sold it for what I got. I got the best possible deal I could because the other thing is that most of these companies have some kind of shareholder or stakeholder who is looking for some kind of return. And so it's every single founder's responsibility, fiduciary responsibility to generate the best possible return for the people who invested in them. So I would actually say that, you know, let's pretend, you know, like I think Bevel's a great example because I know people were really mad about that. If he had decided to sell something for something cheaper or let's say if he even just tried to not sell it all, like he put it, he put it into the head of all of his shareholders and his door suing him. Same that you are doing a fiduciary responsibility. So first and foremost, I think people need to check a little bit of the facts because a lot of times these people aren't the majority owner necessarily of their companies. You know, like they have responsibilities so that people invest it and they're supposed to generate a certain type of return for those people. And so there's legal constraints there, right, that could really say that maybe they didn't even have a choice. Right. You know, until like, you know, this is a situation that I would argue that the better strategy is instead of being upset with them. And so that we have enough money so that we could be the best offer for that brand. Right. And so we have large venture firms, PE firms who are black on black run. And we have the economic capacity to buy the companies that we can stay in our communities. That's the real strategy. Right. And maybe they'll spoke to be some of the investors, you know, along with myself as I hit my, my millions with this venture firm. And then we will become that. And then perhaps we can change the dynamic there because this is really more of a long term strategy about how to build welfare community. And sometimes we have to make sacrifices along the way to get there. I appreciate you positioning it the right way that way. And you touched on it and a lot of instances in our communities. This is like the first time that a lot of these things have happened. So obviously there's like the cooler talk that we're on Twitter, we're on these different channels and we're like having like Barbara shop talk about it. But you know, like these are things that should still be celebrated. And then like you said, it'd be powerful if the resources are pooled and then we can find ways to keep it in house. But if not, you know, you can't really fall to founder for putting in that time of energy and saying, hey, I want to cash out to like to your point. Life changes, you have kids, you have a family. Like vacations are amazing. If you can take them sleeping in is amazing. I'm a big. Wanted of getting your sleep now and founder life isn't always conducive to doing some of those things. Yeah. Well, also neither is baby life is I most recently now. Oh, yes, you said baby life, right? Yes. Yes, baby life is no joke. So that is like a whole another. That could be like a whole pie cast episode alone. I feel like just being a founder. That's apparent. Oh my gosh, there's not enough resources for them. So go ahead. That's an actual fact. Yes. I'm throwing this in there. You're a podcaster as well. The drops podcast. You want to tell us a little bit about that. I feel like that fits somewhere into what you're doing now with the diverge of interest. Yeah. So, you know, when I first was kind of like contemplating going back into the workforce after having a kid in 2021, I. I already had this relationship with my co-host, Pam, Dan here. And so, you know, we would always have these really crazy conversations about product and product market bid and all those other type of stuff. And at some point, we're just like we should actually just record this because you record it, which it happens. And it's exactly what happened. And you know, it really was just just grew out of this desire because in between the two of us, you know, we have over 30 years of, you know, business technology product experience. And so, we just wanted to talk about the things that we discovered in our own companies that we work with. But then also the things that we would observe and the thing about it is, you know, in some ways, product really, really great product leaders are just really like a second. They're just insight engines. Right. That's all they're doing. They're just looking at things and they're deriving insights. They make it hypothesis. They experiment and then that becomes the new future, the new direction of a product. And we decided to say that in record those insights that we might have across so many different companies and industries and put it in one place and that's a podcast. It's that simple. But the way you just broke that down, I think a lot of people that think a podcast can be, you know, this really big production. You know, there's some nice podcasts out there. They have full studios, but it starts with just having a conversation and hitting that record button. And so I appreciate you so much for breaking it down in that way. Podcast life forever. We're a podcast ourselves right. And so it's always great to see folks leveraging that medium right that channel to get there, get the message out. And make sure that we put that in the descriptions for folks to tap in with that as well. So we're wrapping up here. You know, lastly, you want to throw it to you. Let folks know how they can connect with divergent ventures. And you know, you know, staying in tune with what's coming up this year and beyond because I know there's some amazing and amazing things coming up for you and your team. Yeah, so first and foremost, it's divergentventures.com. My wife likes to say without the valves, it's the best way to think about divergent. So just remove the valves and you'll have it. She's also a marketer, so that's exactly why this name is the way that it is. And to the things that I think about when divergent ventures, so first and foremost, we create a lot of block content that just tries to demystify, you know, vitro capital, how it works and things like that. So I really highly invite people to go to blog.vergentvigias.com to get some of that content and learn a little bit more about vitro capital because I believe that everyone has a potential to be in the space. And it's something that the more of us that there are, the higher the likelihood that we will have these amazing outcomes and again, be able to keep our brands in our communities. But then the second part of that is, you know, obviously, you know, I'm always looking for really interesting cool founders, right? So if you're a founder, feel free to also go to the website. If you scroll down to the bottom, there's a founder submission link. Feel free to shoot your shot and tell us a little bit about what you're doing and why you're doing it. And you know, we can't obviously invest in every company, but I do try to reach, you know, respond and tell people what I thought or what I didn't think. And maybe even, you know, shepherd them over to some other research or someone else who can talk a little bit about how to make them better, how to make them successful. Shout out to your wife who's wearing the marketing hat because as soon as I saw the name, it made perfect sense to me. I didn't mess it up. Like you said, taking out those vowels, I don't know why it still makes sense, but it does. So shout out to her as well. Well, so I feel like it's like those Instagram posts where someone will write out like some kind of like, you know, like, you know, all this different, like, you know, the IYK, YK and they like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just feel like we just know. Like you know, like we are the millennial Gen Z, Gen Alpha people. And so we're like, no, we know exactly what you mean. So. Yes. Shout out to her. Lastly, you know, just in closing, what do you want to leave our listeners with? We've had an amazing conversation breaking down your story. Like you said, in the South Mississippi, all these different places that you've been, your time in tech and now you're taking on that challenge of venture capital. This is not an easy challenge, but you know, what do you want to leave our guests with? Yeah. So you know, a lot of people ask me like, you know, why do you do this or how did you know to do this or what do you do? All these different types of things. The simple fact is, is the number one thing that I think that you can cultivate to allow you to do anything possible to curiosity. So you know, be curious. You know, I'm one of those people. If I hear something, I see something. I write it down. I take note. I look it up later and I learn about it. And so, you know, whether it go from, you know, whether it goes from figuring out how to go to college because I didn't really have examples. So I had to figure out how to go to college. I had to figure out how to go to grad school. I had to figure out how to get into tech. I had to figure out what tech was. I had to figure out what product management was. And I had to figure out what venture capital is. And so each one of those opportunities to learn more has been some of the greatest choices I've ever made in my life. And it really has been all the difference between, you know, me being the kid from the dirt road of Mississippi to now being this really weird finance, which your capitalist person lives in LA and looks out and see like, you know, the freaking mountains and stuff every day, whoever would have thought. So. That's an excellent way to, to, to, in the episode, again, I appreciate you for being a guest. I appreciate you for taking on the challenge of venture capital, especially when it comes to black founders. We definitely need more people in your position who can be, you know, past the mic or be the one on the microphone speaking on behalf of some of these amazing founders. Definitely looking forward to seeing what your team comes up with. Amazing ideas, amazing partnerships that happen in 2023 and beyond. And to our listeners, thanks again for tuning into another great episode of the Beyond Normal Podcasts. [Music]